Mini 907: Tech Tree Mafia (End Game)

[Netopalis]

Vote: Sajin

No reason, really. I'll unvote if a bandwagon forms. I absolutely hate the RVS.

[Netopalis]

I don't think we should specify who got BP and who didn't. I think we SHOULD all move towards getting NK-immunity with BP as the next action for those who didn't get it.

[Netopalis]

Actually....

Unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

Not-so-random. A policy vote is better than a random vote.

[Netopalis]

Chaco, my point isn't to go for tech victory, my point is to nullify the Mafia's kill. If everyone is unnightkillable, we can still lynch.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Based on the one game I've played with you, the vote stands.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, Unblockable has errata now. I'd recommend everybody who already went for BP go towards Shroud - it's probably more important to eliminate the Mafia's kill than to gain kills ourselves.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, due to an excruciatingly long drive, I'll be on V/LA from midnight to 8 PM tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

Alright, sorry for the extended absence. Lots of unexpected stuff popping up in school....

At any rate, here's my take on things. I think that Chaco is a player that...posts rather hastily, to put it politely. Based on my previous experience with him, this is in line with his play. This does not exonerate him, it just means that my reaction to his posts is a null read at the moment.

Cobalt...is a difficult read. As one of the more prominent trolls on the site, his playstyle is obviously attuned to inducing a gut emotional reaction in the posters following his statements. In a way, though, this is beneficial to the town. I would posit that his style is actually better than random vote for getting the game going a bit more on D1, and right now, I'm reading him as town. This may change dramatically, as first-day reads are wont to do. Still, I don't think that *either* of them are the play today.

Percy: In response to your question, my vote on SSK is not a serious attempt to lynch. It is merely a psuedo-random vote on someone which was placed because I really do hate random voting. We've discussed this before, if I recall.

[Netopalis]

Brilliant, SSK, pure brilliance. Perhaps you should tell us

why

we should be looking at Cobalt and

what

he has done that is so scummy?

[Netopalis]

Well, regardless, I'm going to try to support any lynch at this point. I'd rather Chaco (a questionable player) die and give us information than no lynch occur.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

[Netopalis]

No note.

Chaco: You would have been lynched yesterday if not for the deadline. Why don't you start us out with a few choice suspicions? Please remember that (in my mind, at least) you are the default lynch today - that means that you should be trying extra-hard to justify your continued existence in this game. Good suspicions, good reasoning and good responses are a must.

[Netopalis]

Alright, Chaco, here's a few statements for you to defend yourself against.

1) Your D1 posts are, in general, rather fluffy and look more like active lurking. In particular, your discussions over the potential roles to take is far more protracted than it should have been, and it seems almost as if you were intentionally drawing it out in order to make things take longer.

2) You've advanced only one suspicion, based on someone "tunneling on how good BP is." Admittedly, others (myself included) haven't advanced many suspicions either, but your one suspicion that you have advanced is particularly weak and doesn't exactly seem to follow logic.

3) You have been on "Recurring V/LA" since mid-Hellsing Mafia. Why did you sign up for new games if you were going to be in such limited capacity for more than 3 months?

Non-accusation questions:
1) Who do you suspect now and why? Please give complete, well-reasoned answers, as I requested initially.

2) What do you feel is your biggest asset as a Mafia player? What can you bring to the town that will help us win?

3) Why did you never unvote your random vote yesterday? You kept a meaningless vote on me for the whole day. I'm assuming that, based on the lack of reasoning, there was no reason to do this - if there was, please elaborate.

[Netopalis]

Look, the point is, all of that was a pretense to get you to post suspicions. I asked you earlier, and you refused to do so unless I posted some reasons to suspect you. I posted some reasons. You would probably say that they are nothing more than flimsy evidence. I agree. If you really need it, I suppose I can post some more flimsy evidence. The gist of my post here is that I'd like to know who you suspect and why.


UK - Nobody has reason to do that, unless the person that the note said not to lynch is the person who sent it, or unless the mafia sent it. In either case, it should be disregarded.

[Netopalis]

Wait, what? You're in this game?

[Netopalis]

Vaya - Since you're actually, you know, here...Why don't you post something?

[Netopalis]

Alright. I'm getting kinda tired of this. This game is going nowhere fast, due partially to the crappy activity levels and due partially to the lack of information on D1. Juls and SSK are, in my opinion, the two worst offenders. Fish would be here if he wasn't rereading. The only way that this game will progress is if we get everyone to speak their mind about a lynch candidate. So, in other words...

SSK, Juls - I am voting for one of you today, and I suspect that one of the two of you will be lynched today. Justify your existence. Tell us why we should let you stick around.

Everybody else - Who would you rather get rid of between those two? Is there anyone else that you feel strongly about lynching?

[Netopalis]

Honestly, I don't. However, we need to get people to express their opinions on someone and eventually lynch them. You've provided no content. Losing you is least damaging to the town if you are town, and if you're scum, it's an automatic bonus.

[Netopalis]

Doctor is NOT useful if everybody has BP. That's why nobody should be going for Doctor. Instead, people should generally be going for anti-NK abilities and investigative abilities.

Masonify does NOT unify town members, as it does not let us know the alignment of other players, and night-talking is a minimally useful ability, if it is useful at all.

[Netopalis]

Look. As a group, let's forget this stupid note. We're not going to get anything from it. There are two possibilities:

A) Scum sent it, in which case we run into a WIFOM over whether they'd tell us to lynch or not to lynch one of their own

or,

B) A townie sent it. A townie who sent a message could not possibly have gotten an investigation result as of yet. Therefore, they have no additional information and the message should be discarded.

Let's please stop derailing ourselves over this and get back on track.

[Netopalis]

You still haven't justified your position on Masonify, though.

[Netopalis]

That's all you have to say?

[Netopalis]

Just about anything from you would be an improvement, honestly.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

I should think that the reasoning is obvious.

[Netopalis]

The thing is, a SSK lynch is valid for more reasons, IMHO. Pom, if town, will be productive in the future. SSK will not be. If SSK or Pom flips scum, the other should be lynched, but we should lynch the least productive of the two.

[Netopalis]

You've said that a few times now....Can you link me to the game in question? Honestly, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing it. I've tried the soft approach with him before, and it's gotten me nowhere. Also, I've read his play in other games and it seems to be roughly equivalent. Essentially, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Netopalis]

He made 1 post in the thread that you link me to. I really honestly can't base a judgment on it. There may be a thought process that works going on back there. For all I know, he could be the most brilliant mafia player in the history of the site. The problem is that I *can't* know that because he never makes substantial posts.

I don't want anybody to fail. That's why I play in a lot of newbie games and try to help people out from the start. The problem is that this is a recurring problem with SSK. He's been here since November 2007. Quite frankly, if he hasn't learned that he needs to post his reasoning in 2 years, I really don't have a lot of hope for him. Either way, this is not a newbie game, and my primary function is not to teach, it is to achieve a win for the town.

Feel free to use whatever tactics that you want, but my vote stands until I have someone better to vote for.

[Netopalis]

So, rather than be mean and assuming SSK won't produce, I try harder to ask him why he thinks the things he does. And I think I made a little progress in some cases.

Feel free. Like I said, I would be absolutely thrilled if he suddenly decided to take his games seriously. I'm just skeptical. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to be realistic and fair. I can't logically hold new players to a standard while lessening that standard for SSK because he can't be bothered to post something decent every now and then. I think that 2 years of consistent behavior, though, is more than grounds for the preconceived notion that I have about his play, and I also feel that his play is the result of laziness, not from lack of skill. Unfortunately, laziness is extremely difficult to correct. Again, I wish you luck, but my vote stands.

[Netopalis]

You have made 4 posts with more than one line in them. Most of your posts, while vaguely contributory, are not really that helpful because they have no detail. You bring up ideas without explaining why you are thinking them, which makes them practically useless.

And no, I don't want you to fail. I'm not sure which MD thread that you're referring to... But as far as voting for you, it is my job in this game to advance the town, not to help anybody learn, not to improve anybody's play and not to accommodate for odd playstyles. I voted you because I hate random votes and I feel that a policy vote is better than no vote at all.

Of course, it's not like you're helpless in the matter. Prove me wrong. Start making decently-sized, well-thought out posts which explain your reasoning. Then, I will recant everything that I have said about you. You've been here for 2 years. You should know how to do this.

[Netopalis]

Policy lynch alone is scummy. Policy reasons + other grounds = Pro-town.

[Netopalis]

3 reasons.

1) Most of his posts are information over analysis, a clear attempt to show activity without contributing a great deal.

2) Tunneling against Juls for an incredibly weak reason (No unvoting of the random vote by page 4, no real reasons to suspect anybody)

3) Failure to fully explain his reasoning behind his actions (Although I sort of expected this, but I still have to throw it out there)

[Netopalis]

Does anybody have any reason why we shouldn't lynch SSK? We've given him more than enough opportunities to prove that he's not just a scummy bump that's been buddying up to Pom, and he's not done so. Plus, his posts do seem, as UK pointed out, to have something of a connection there.

[Netopalis]

Not really. Why do you think that Pom is the better play?

[Netopalis]

That's so helpful in me making my decision. My gut says SSK.

[Netopalis]

Way to bus!

Unvote, vote: Pomegranate

[Netopalis]

No, I didn't say that. The problem is that your past posts don't justify your sudden shift.

[Netopalis]

No, but I would have preferred something that I can look at and say, "Ah, yes, that's why I should vote."

[Netopalis]

Nah, I'm good. I'm with you now.

[Netopalis]

Claiming is rather pointless in this game, isn't it?

[Netopalis]

SSK, your whole existence is active lurking. Seriously, if you want to avoid this sort of thing in the future, post more! It's not that hard.

[Netopalis]

Welcome, Jahudo! Not much to read, I'm afraid, but I hope you can come to a conclusion.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, vote: Malthusis

Sorry, I've not been around lately. I need to catch up. Short version: I agree with you folks that he's likely scum.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I've honestly had a really tough time getting a solid read on anybody throughout this game. For whatever reason, everybody is just coming up null. I'm going to do a reread over this weekend - hopefully, that will help me sort things out a bit more.

[Netopalis]

Alright. Sorry about my activity during this game. I think that, since the game hasn't really had a great deal of analysis - more like rushed deadline votes - it's played contrary to my normal playstyle. Here's an attempt to inject some cold, hard logic:

Here is a list of players in the game:

6) Sajin, representative of the Korath Clan
7) Chaco, representative of the Krynn Consulate
8) Juls, representative of the Terran Alliance
9) netopalis, representative of the Dominion of Korx
10) FishytheFish (rep. Vaya), representative of the Iconian Refuge
11) MafiaSSK, representative of the Yor Collective
12) Pomegranate, representative of the Thalan Empire

Given that I know that I am innocent, and that we know that Sajin is a member of the Egyptian Mafia, we have the following potential list of second family scum:

7) Chaco, representative of the Krynn Consulate
8) Juls, representative of the Terran Alliance
10) FishytheFish (rep. Vaya), representative of the Iconian Refuge
11) MafiaSSK, representative of the Yor Collective
12) Pomegranate, representative of the Thalan Empire

FishytheFish's play in this game has, I think, been beyond amazing. He has been one of the most solid pro-town forces in the game, and I would be utterly shocked if he were scum. Rather, scum's best opportunity in this game was to simply play on the inactivity and go for those deadline lynches. This means never really stating a strong opinion or pushing for any action - this is consistent with Malt and Sajin's play. Without Fishy, we're looking at:


7) Chaco, representative of the Krynn Consulate
8) Jahudo, representative of the Terran Alliance
11) MafiaSSK, representative of the Yor Collective
12) Pomegranate, representative of the Thalan Empire

A SSK/Pom scumteam has been brought up in the past. I think that it is entirely probable. Additionally, I think that a Chaco/Jahudo scumteam is extremely possible. Chaco defends Juls several times. Juls "randomly" votes Chaco at first, which scum often do, and later revotes him for a vague reason - "Liking Percy's attack" without explaining why. Jahudo leaves Chaco out of his multi-player analysis, which I think is also suspicious. He later defends Chaco as a probable town player. I'm more convinced of the Chaco-Juls/Jahudo scumteam.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

.

[Netopalis]

Ugh, sorry, that's a reference to a different game. I'm in two games with two hypothetical scumgroups. In the other one, one of them is named the Egyptian Mafia.

[Netopalis]

Why?

[Netopalis]

Jahudo has a reason to genuinely look for scum if there are two scumteams...

[Netopalis]

Iso post 36.

[Netopalis]

Well, there IS a follow-up post in 37. Sure, it's not a protracted defense...but it is a defense. As for Jahudo, sorry, I misread.

[Netopalis]

Note that this is following an attack based on lack of content...

[Netopalis]

He's still alive. He still sucks.

[Netopalis]

Wow, that's pretty sad.

The town correctly lynched Malthusis yesterday. Sajin claimed as his scum partner, going for the tech ability which lets him win if he's the last surviving member of his faction. Therefore, we're looking for a separate scum team. The discussion has focused the pool to the following 4:

SSK (Now Ellibereth)
Pomegranate
Chaco
Jules (Now Jahudo)

I advanced the theory that the potential scumteams are SSK/Pom and Chaco/Jules. Other people have advanced other theories. Also, there's only 20 pages of discussion and the game has tended to drag rather than sprint.

[Netopalis]

Oh. Yeah, sorry, forgot to include that tidbit.

[Netopalis]

Meh, I had forgotten about the addendum to the rules. Wasn't intentional. The situation remains.

[Netopalis]

Ellibereth already claimed the number of tech powers.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, sorry, I had forgotten about it. I'll have something up in a few hours or so.

[Netopalis]

Netopalis:

D1- Is pro-BP, as shown in iso post 1, 3. Neutral.

Policy votes SSK. Neutral.

(iso 7) Gives a couple of fuzzy reads on Cobalt and Chaco. Useless posting.

Useless? Meh, I wouldn't say useless. D1 was a pretty rough day for everybody, and nobody really felt good about any reads.

Votes Chaco to avoid no-lynch.

D2

(iso 10) Asks for a lot of content from Chaco right off the bat D2, when he had hardly given any reads or content himself D1. I don't like how this.

Sure, I didn't give much content D1. However, honestly, there just wasn't that much info out on D1. Not much is better than nothing, though, which is what Chaco contributed.

(iso 11) Accuses Chaco of having fluffy posts, when the few posts he has are also a bit fluffy. Not good either.

I'd argue that my posts are more substantial than most players by that point. Certainly more than Chaco's or SSKs.

Admits that he hadn't given many (or any?) real suspicions, but implies that his were clearer that Chaco's.

They were. Chaco was getting tripped up on D1, unable to take a position.

(iso 12) admits that his reasons were flimsy.

(iso 13/15) says that everyone needs to post suspicions to get the game moving. All he's done is question Chaco on flimsy evidence. Also, he says that he finds both Juls and SSK very suspicious, but he doesn't explain why. The only thing that makes sense is that it's on grounds of lurking. I don't like the lack of explanation.

Lurking and lack of taking position were my main problems. The game-wide problem, though, was the fact that we were stuck in the RVS for all of D1, and then we realized, "Oh, crap, we have a deadline!" So, we didn't get much useful stuff out of D1.

(iso 22) Votes SSK after he repeatedly refuses to post content. Makes fine sense.

Later explains that he can't see from the game UK linked to that SSK was helpful, because SSK didn't post (or posted once, I forget). I agree with this.

(iso 33) Votes me when I vote SSK.

The vote was based on your lack of independent reasoning.

(iso 40) Doesn't really explain his vote on Malthusis other than "he's likely scum". (Yes, those are his words.) It's very hypocritical, because the reason that Neto vor=ted for me was because I didn't really explain my SSK vote in advance. Now he jumps on a wagon forming on Malthusis doing worse.

We needed to lynch before the deadline, I didn't want to go into Haiku again and I knew that we weren't going to get a wagon together on you or SSK.

(iso 42) Didn't really have much content in it, despite what it looked like.

You didn't think so? I thought that it was fairly good independent reasoning, as did most players.

I don't like Neto's play. I will possibly vote him after I check the most recent vote count.

[Netopalis]

Still here, just have been busy. The lack of activity and of stuff to work off of has made this game extremely difficult for me. I'll try to get something up tonight or tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

Meh, honestly, I agree with the above analysis. Vaya looked like lurkerscum trying to protect Chaco. I doubt that the lateness of the vote is a strong indicator of townishness or scummishness - the fact that Vaya was perpetually late probably had more to do with it.

I'm actually liking Pomegranate a lot more since the suspicion shifted to her. Chaco may be the play today instead.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

[Netopalis]

Was it? I thought it was on Pomegranate. No matter.

Unvote, vote: Chaco

[Netopalis]

Oh. Well, this is embarrassing. I got my replacements mixed up. You're obviously town, Fishy, I was thinking of Juls when I read Jahudo's post for whatever reason. As for why I thought I was voting for Pomegranate, I'd say this post:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 00#2136600

Yes, I ended up voting Chaco after it, but it strongly implies that Pomegranate is an excellent alternative choice. That's further reinforced by post 480. The decision between Chaco/Juls and Pomegranate/SSK was a bit of a tossup to me originally, but later posts convinced me that I made the right call on it.

[Netopalis]

Fishy: Just to be perfectly honest, I've not been keeping up with this game as well as I should and I got my replacements mixed up. They're not listed on the frontpage, and I was thinking that Jahudo replaced SSK.

I need to do some serious catching up. I apologize, I'm not normally this sucky.

[Netopalis]

Ellibereth.

[Netopalis]

Well, for what it's worth, I've been in a moot court competition and I have a rather large paper due on Monday. My site-wide activity has taken a severe hit. Not good play, I know, but it's what's happened.

[Netopalis]

Jahudo: At the beginning of D2, we had practically no information. While I wasn't confident about Chaco being scum at the time, I knew that in order to generate more information, we needed to pressure somebody, and I wasn't going to be able to put any pressure on anybody by waffling. So, I decided to clamp down hard on Chaco, using the fact that he was tied for the lynch as leverage. Sadly, it didn't work, as he didn't really post much of any use.

[Netopalis]

Hah! Called it! CALLED IT!

[Netopalis]

Then why did you send a message?

I had:
Bulletproof Vest
NK-Immune
Shroud
Vig - I had just invented it, so I didn't get a chance to use it.

[Netopalis]

Really? That's odd. That's extremely odd.