Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[farside22]

I would say that the scum would probably do weak doc, millionaire and vig.
As for what role to assign the scum I would say godfather and vengeful.
The role I would be completely against to give scum is janitor. In the last game of pat's it was given to the scum and it definitely aided the scum to win that game.

[farside22]

idk I feel a role cop for mafia is a powerful role too. Giving the mafia the ability to investigate for themselves a player to see what role that person has.........Worse is giving them rolecop with a roleblocker.
And then vengeful with a role cop means if the vengeful dies they can kill 2 players at that point. That just seems a bit powerful in scum hands.
It's why I think GF is the path of least resistance.

[farside22]

I'm starting to lean on rolecop/GF now.
rolecop may give the scum info but it will take a n1 or n2 with some luck to make a difference.
GF hurts us if there is a weakdoc/masonaire more as it leaves us a bit uncertain. However if we have a masonaire I notice that scum when having to talk to a town mason don't do well. The communication is sparse from the scum in comparison like they don't know how to handle questions or comments one on one.

[farside22]

A RB stops information and if you give the scum a GF and there is a masonaire/weak doc (either of these) can give a corrupt results.

Also if there is a masonaire the part I bolded gives me great concern:

You are a 2 shot roleblocker. Twice during the game, at night, you can block another player from taking any nightactions (using both blocks on the same night if you so wish). If that player is a cop or masoniser they will be notified of the block, otherwise they won't be.

A roleblocked masoniser will not be allowed to try again

.

Sure it's a long shot of what if.
If there is a weak doc also this role also has to deal with wondering with a RB if he targeted a townie or if he was roleblocked without notification

[farside22]

Actually, that's not as bad as I thought; at least the masoniser is told he's role blocked, so he dosn't get a "false guilty".

I actually think that a masoniser recruiting a godfather is theoretically more dangerous then him getting roleblocked.

Either way, though.

I have yet to see scum communicate well in a chat with a town. If you have examples of those who could I would be open to this thought but so far no. All scums that end up in communication with a town one on one say little to nothing and if there is a masoniser it's just easy to question the person and drill them during the night phase if uncertain about them.

[farside22]

Putting godfather through is ridiculous and a waste.

Im looking for the best combo but choosing godfather is the worst single choice out of the 5. Please try again,

Why? You have said anything at all about what you feel is the best two choices to give the scum so far, so speak up man.

[farside22]

Im currently wondering if the janitor role is really that bad? Im not seeing it as that big a deal.

You can gain a lot of information from lynches chaz. Information that everyone in the town can use. If the janitor uses its power, we dont know the result. We don't know if its a powerrole, or scum, or just a plain townie. There are a lot of bad possibilities that can happen with the janitor role.

This ^ also for those who didn't play the last game I suggest reading it over and why I'm against the janitor role for scum

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8109

[farside22]

Vote: Godfather

obviously.

Janitor is too bad.

Maybe rolecop or vengeful. They are almost harmless.

Since this is your first post how about a bit more insight to why you think GF obvious and rolecop or vengeful.

[farside22]

Vote godfather, Vote RoleBlocker

Why did you chose RB over role cop out of curiousity. I notice you have been saying this combo all during the discussion but never touched on the subject being discussed.

[farside22]

If we are talking about hypoclaiming and one of a weak doc or masonaire exsist I think a role cop may the the path of least resistance between RB/RC.
With a RB and hypoclaiming and the fact the scum know the roles of each player they can use the hypoclaim to block infomoration.
However giving them a day rolecop gives them a shot at finding said role before the night.
idk it just makes me really wary of both roles even more now.

[farside22]

amd what type of combo might that be? a role-cop vengful or maybe a role cop Rb? Godfather is the weakest role by himself, we might not even have a cop (I am almost sure we don't have one because they are a bit too powerful). I think that right now picking the gf and then somthing else is the best "combo" right now.

They don't have to give us a cop, but they had to give us at least one of the three information roles (cop, weak doc, masonizer), and all 3 are vunlerable to a godfather.

Still, I'm leaning towards settle for godfather-rolecop, with roleblocker-rolecop being my second choice.

I cant' believe you still think rb/rc is a good thing.
the role cop is a day action.
There are 3 town power roles out there. Scum have a 3 out of 9 shout figuring out who it can be. Give them a day role cop and they can clear 3 out of 8 players from being said PR. Then give them a RB to pick from and with a chance of a mislynch (worse case scanario) 3 out 7. There chances of roleblocking the right person night 1 increases to almost 50%
No thanks.

With that said giving the a RC ensures they don't mess with any potentional PR's out there where as RB does. Having the GF messes already with potentional investigations so why give them RB/GF

Vote: Godfather
Vote: RoleCop

[farside22]

GF already messed with any investigation role we may have received.
Cop or mason will get an innocent.
And confuse the weak doctor as well.

The RB can block an invesigation (mason and cop will know, weak doc will not)
so it really depends on what roles are out there. We have to have a least one invesigation role out there based on the set up.
Like I said earlier giving the rolecop/RB is far worse. It increases the chances of scum not only finding PR but blocking power roles.

[farside22]

Surely scum are more likely to kill a power role they find during the day rather than block them.

If you are talking rolecop/rb combo here I assume?
If so I can see that as yes but again if the rc just finds a vt and we lynch a vt during day 1. Then the chances of successfully rb of a person is 7 out of 3.
Not quiet 50/50 shot at being correct but higher.

[farside22]

Your answer is totally wrong and here is why:

Godfather is useful for a member of scum if they have chosen any of the roles as all our roles (bar doc) are useless against it. ie. cop gets town result, vig does not get his NK, weak doc does not die when targetting him, mason is able to speak to him. All these things directly harm the town.

Rolecop also directly hurts the town but I think its the weakest of the lot... unfortunetly I think rb is strongest. Im worried because I think Im in a position where I hate that gf role but its the one we have to go for... although I still am not convinced about the janitor role or the vengeful mafia role... still thinking about it.

I object to the following combo's
rb/rc
rc/janitor
rc/vengeful

I'm sure you can see why any of those combo's can hurt the town.
vengeful gives an extra kill and only if we lynch the scum who was vengeful. I think this is bad if it's lylo with 2 scum and 3 town and lynching the vengeful then the scum get's 2 kills that night, game over.

[farside22]

So lets see if I get things right:

The janitor is a no. The vengeful is also a no. A lylo scenario is more than likely with 3 scum in the setup, and we dont want to give the scum the possibility to jesterize to win the game.

Basically our only combinations are gf-rolecop, gf-roleblockler and rolecop-roleblocker.

I have something that is constantly bugging my mind. We keep saying that the roleblocker is a bad idea because it prevents power roles for functioning. We also say that the rolecop is also a bad idea because mafia can find power roles.

Wouldnt a godfather in the setup effectively make our power roles not reliable?

Please correct me if Im wrong.

Yes it would. But rolecop-roleblocker is a horrible combination, and probably one of the worst, if not the worst, combinations we can give the mafia. So since we have pretty much decided against janitor and vengeful, we have to give them the godfather.

This ^

[farside22]

Actually having had a look at PYP3 and am going to look at this thread again after the cinema, Im still leaning heavily towards the janitor and I think that people who are against it because of PYP3 are more against it because of BBM and not because of the role. Yes it helped the scum but I think it would help less than godfather...

BBM wasn't helpful. However covering any lynch can be trouble for the town as they don't know if they lynched a town or scum. The only person the janitor can not cover is them self.

[farside22]

vote: Yosarian

For trying to push the idea of a rb/rc as a good idea. His first post he did the suggestion and his second comment about it he started saying it was a second options.

Still, I'm leaning towards settle for godfather-rolecop, with roleblocker-rolecop being my second choice.

Looking at the fact it's a day cop and the possiblites of scum narrowing down there investigations to block this just is a scummy suggestion.

[farside22]

vote: Yosarian

For trying to push the idea of a rb/rc as a good idea. His first post he did the suggestion and his second comment about it he started saying it was a second options.

Still, I'm leaning towards settle for godfather-rolecop, with roleblocker-rolecop being my second choice.

Looking at the fact it's a day cop and the possiblites of scum narrowing down there investigations to block this just is a scummy suggestion.

RB/RC are the two weakest roles the scum could possibly have. Becuase of the fact that they work well together, I eventually decided rc/godfather was somewhat less effective. Still, RB/RC wouldn't have been that bad; it wouldn't have been nearly as bad as what you were first suggesting, which was:

As for what role to assign the scum I would say godfather and vengeful.

Considering you were origionally pushing for a combo that's clearly far more anti-town then RB/RC, I'm not sure how you can say that me thinking RB/RC was the lesser evil could possibly be a point against me.

I already went thru the sets on what the likely hood of finding a PR is using that combo.
I also stated that rc/vengeful, or janitor was bad.
Vengeful does a second kill only if that scum is killed. I didn't think about end game in the scanario.

[farside22]

If your going to ISO me on the subject lets see who else had the same thought process:

Ok everyone needs to answer both of the following questions:

1- If you were mafia, what 3 roles would you have given town? Why?

2- what roles would be best to select for mafia, why?

My answers are: Vig, Weak doctor, Masoniser.

and

Godfather Vengeful.

I will save the reasoning for these choices until more people have weighed in.

If I was mafia I would have given the town doc, masonizer, and vig.

And after a little bit of thought, I have changed from role cop to vengeful. Roleblocker is the worst and we should definitely not give the mafia that.

Sorry for joining late, regaining internet access.

Answering sajin's questions:

If I were scum I would have given town a combo of doc, vig and masoniser.

I think mafia rolecop is a must to give. I still cant decide between godfather and vengeful. Im leaning to vengeful just for the idea that I hate roles that mess out with "confirmed" results and can give a scumbag a free ride t victory.

This was just on the first page. In other words the idea of GF/vengeful was being tossed around by others. I notice yos that you immediately go on the defense and attack me on my views that others shared.

[farside22]

If your going to ISO me on the subject lets see who else had the same thought process:

What does that have to do with anything?

I wasn't attacking you, I was simply pointing out that the idea I had in my first post was significantly "less bad" then the idea you had in your first post, and so even if you think I was wrong (I still don't think it's that clear cut, IMHO), it's foolish to attack me for it considering your suggestion was so much worse.

Again you calling my idea worse when others had the same thought process. You were advocating the your idea and pushing it as a second option is far worse.

In other news

FOS: RBT

[farside22]

If your going to ISO me on the subject lets see who else had the same thought process:

What does that have to do with anything?

I wasn't attacking you, I was simply pointing out that the idea I had in my first post was significantly "less bad" then the idea you had in your first post, and so even if you think I was wrong (I still don't think it's that clear cut, IMHO), it's foolish to attack me for it considering your suggestion was so much worse.

Again you calling my idea worse when others had the same thought process.

Huh? Your idea was worse. What does what other people thought thought have to do with anything?

Having a vengeful scum would be much more anti-town then having a roleblocker. By the end of the day, you seemed to realize that.

I never called you scummy for thinking that, because it's quite possible you were just mistaken and especially as you later changed your mind, but I find it really odd that you're attacking me for supporting a much more pro-town plan then the one you ware supporting at the same time.

[qute]
You were advocating the your idea and pushing it as a second option is far worse.

I was pushing Godfather/rolecop as my first choice for most of the day, with rolecop/roleblocker my second choice. I decided that RB/RC was slightly worse then godfather/rolecop, but still significantly better for the town then any other possible pair; it's better for the town then RB/godfather, and far better for the town then any pair that includes vengeful or godfather.[/quote]

First of all I called your idea out because it wasn't just 1 time you posted it but put it as a second choice even though most said it was bad. Plus you wanted support on the idea.
Pointing to my idea saying it was worse is OMGUS when you note others had the same thought.
Basically it's this convo
farside: hey this thought and idea is scum. He pushed the idea
yos: Oh yeah well your idea is far worse so how can you say it's scummy
farside: excuse me did you just call my point that others had worse when others had the same thought
yos: so?

In a nuts shell it feels like you want to point to me just because I called you out.

[farside22]

Malp _still_ has yet to post. Chamber has still yet to give us the answer to your original question in your first post. The table above lists all the choices that were given (Yos couldn't decide on a third, hence why it is in red as well). While we should not assume that the chart would actually reflect what scum did give us, I think it gives the pretty accurate representation of what roles are likely to show up (aka, it's pretty obvious to assume there'd be a mason).

As for Sajin's substance comment, I had this post written in notepad about a week ago, but was holding it to prevent handing scum the information, or at the very least, get everyone to participate (as you can see, there were still issues I had with putting this table out in the post you quoted).

Overall, right now I find Chamber scummy for his lack of ability to provide the town with any sort of useful information, as well as his inability to answer this question in any of his D0 posts.

VOTE:Chamber

[farside22]

Let me use an analogy.

Farside: Vote: yos, he lurked for 12 hours during day 1.
Yos: Uh, why do you think that's scummy? You lurked for a week during day 1.
Farside: OMGUS!!!!

If you are claiming that me supporting an idea you think was anti-town is scummy, then it's certainly relevant that you were doing something far more anti-town.

Did you point out anyone else lurking?
I think you either don't get my point on how you pointing out my logic saying it's worse when others had the same bad is zoning on the one person who called you out for pushing a weak idea.
Plus I have yet to read how the combo of gf/ven is worse. You say it's worse and hold that up as a shield to excuse a combo I should why it was bad together.
Vengeful is bad on it's own the combo I don't see has worse then rc/rb

[farside22]

If someone else who had supported a vengeful killer was attacking you for doing the same thing, you'd be calling them out on it, I guarentee it.

Duh because they said vengeful too. But I'm saying the combo you supported even as a second choice is far worse then veng/gf I suggest in my first post and upon read looked at game wise and suggested rc/gf in my next post with thoughts.

[farside22]

@ rbt any other reason other then the omgus for voting chamber?

His complete inability to explain anything to the town. There is no reason to allow this. He's contributing nothing of use; he's reached the point of a policy lynch in my mind, as he's about as useless as Empking.

The only reason to not lynch him to me right now is because someone claimed scum

.

I don't see how you get that idea Porochaz. I read this as though someone claimed.

[farside22]

Thats what I got from it initially, but where did that happen?

I didn't see anything either. If there was someone that claimed scum. (1) why is he saying that he is not voting chamber because someone else claimed scum when he is voting chamber. (2) everyone would have voted the person by now if such a claim exsisted.

[farside22]

Anon: My view was to everything people said at the begining the thing that struck me was the proposals and I felt Yos keen on an idea like RC/RB is scummy. He is saying that GF/Ven is worse which I don't see this combo as worse. Vengeful = bad. GF/Ven together is not a worse combo in my mind even reading Yos pov. I feel he is saying my idea bad as a way to escape the scrinity I took in pointing this out.

I will take some time to reread everyone again tomorrow.

[farside22]

So far, that is all I really have to go on. Everyone else is seemingly arguing over nothing in my eyes. I don't think disagreeing about what role is more powerful, is substantial by any means. People have different perspectives. CoolDog is the only one that I've even see hint at being scummy.

Did you read the other pyp games out of curiosity?
See the point you seem to maybe not thinking is scum is voting on the power they get too. They may push certain idea's over others to give themselves a better opportunity to win and since they know what we have then they could use this to their advantage.

[farside22]

I'm thinking if there is a weak doctor and the scum know that there is then hypoclaiming could be bad. The scum know their claims are fake and the only thing they have to worry about is if someone targets one of them.
I think if I was a weak doc I would try and be subtle about who I was going to protect in some way. Idk I'm trying to think of the best way to utilize a possible role.
Scotty I think I recall you said they used a weak doc before with hypoclaiming. Did this help the town or the scum more in sigling out the weak doc? I didn't have a chance to look through the game so a brief how it worked and the pro's and con's on it would be helpful.

[farside22]

finished my reread of things. I have some questions and thoughts on things:
sajin post 7: why ask people what they would pick as mafia and not answer the question yourself.
Leech post 11: you state that GF is a standard role if there is no cop or vig. How can you say that with the idea that a weak doc or mason basically can believe they are town if targeted?
scot post 16: How is RB worse the GF in regards to messing with roles?
anon post 18: I really prefer scum to be able to hit a power role instead of having a scumbag hidden in fake confirmed status. Interestinly enough I noticed you never voted on anything
scot post 21: You realize the only way vengeful works is if we do have a vig in the game.
cooldog pst 26: After reading the roles your still in favor of vengeful but did you actually read the comments in the game discussing the theory?
sajin said: Weak doctor can still find a godfather, etc. 2nd choice.
Disagree:
Godfather wrote:
You are a Godfather. Any cop investigations against you will show the opposite of their expected result, and any nightkills against you will fail. Further, if a masoniser tries to recruit you, they will succeed, in the same way they would if you were a protown player. Lastly, you have the option of allowing a weak doctor to protect you and still survive; you can use this on any night by PMing me.

Ort post 39: Why do you feel vengeful is an obvious choice to give the mafia?
chamber post 48: just regurgitates what he said earlier and not offering anything else to the convo.
cooldog post 50: contradicts his post 26 and backtracks a bit
RBT post 53: post is meh just nothing to really back up with an actual POV
yos post 56: I found this too in my thoughts about GF/RB and didn't like that combo at all.
cooldog post 58: feels like a weak post with a me too kind of feel.
poro post 59: doesn't want GF but doesn't offer any alternative.
por post 60: did you read pyp3? Did you really think that BAM was the only reason that role worked well for the scum?
RBT post 63: Why the need to ask others for their pick on roles given? Why withhold your thoughts on what works best?
cool post 73: I really don't like this post he is asking about rc with ven or RB talk about a horrid combo
scotmay post 82: Not sure why you had to give it more thought as you stated earlier you were coming to terms with it. Care to explain?
chamber post 85: I get what he's saying her about the rc vs rb but I think having a rb/gf just messes more with investigations
cooldog post 144: This post really confuses me.
RBT post 146: How do you think that chamber answering the question helps the town?
poro post 164: Did you think cool was the only person to have a happy stance in the talks earlier?
RBT post 165: Who claimed scum?
Leech post 173: Did you not that cooldog is saying this off of RBT's comment that someone claimed scum?
ort post 174: excusing people based on meta is not something I'm a fan of.
I should be saying the same thing to scot on this and I don't get why people defend others using meta.
cooldog post 181: Is it just me or is this just not making sense. see the chamber doesn't explain stuff to the town and acts like this alot but leaning chamber scum based on pregame talks Huh?
scot post 199: Who do you think is scum?
yosi post 207: I have to say this is my concern with the hypo claiming but I can see not doing it doesn't help the town either. It's a double edge sword.


So far things that just strike me as scum. cooldog seems to be latching onto things for weak reason (see post 181) things like this just make no sense.
RBT saying chamber is scum for not answering questions. I don't get this case at all and his intial post after the pregame looks like rolefishing.
scot had some decent pre-game comments but so far today all I have seen from him is questions with no follow through or scum hunting involved.
poro bothers me for some reason I can't put my finger on. Part of it was it delayed I disagree with GF comments. I wish I could explain further I will just leave this with gut for now.
As for yos I can't say we agree with each other on the subject and I still feel he is using the well you had a worse combo then mine just seems like someone brushing a case off of themselves without having to go further into it.

My top 4 scum picks are: RBT, cool and scot at the moment. With yos as someone I find highly questionable thus far.

unvote:
vote: RBT

[farside22]

@ scot: Sorry I missed the vote. I think I looked at one page and saw no vote from you and blink it's there.

If chamber's play is that he doesn't give reasoning, regardless of his role, then its a null tell when he does it. Meta's are very valuable. Some people do the same things as scum and town, some people play both extremely different, etc.

If it's a null tell how does it get why does it seem you are excusing his behavior in this comment:

First off, chamber doesn't like reasoning. I haven't played with him a lot but I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a lot of reasoning. Also, no one ever called you scum, just that your post was scummy. People think you are scummy because you are confident that one of chamber and farside is scum off of literally NOTHING.

[farside22]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

[farside22]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

You are literally making no sense right now.

how am I not making sense?
You say it's his play style. I take that to mean no matter his allignment he plays the same way so isn't that a null tell?

[farside22]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

You are literally making no sense right now.

how am I not making sense?
You say it's his play style. I take that to mean no matter his allignment he plays the same way so isn't that a null tell?

Yes, that's what I have been saying.

Okay well I thought I read your comment as excusing his behavior to RBT in regards to his lack of comments.

[farside22]

Sorry about being abscent, try to not let that happen again.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It's his playstyle. I don't like it, but it isn't scummy for him to do it.

I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

You are literally making no sense right now.

how am I not making sense?
You say it's his play style. I take that to mean no matter his allignment he plays the same way so isn't that a null tell?

Yes, that's what I have been saying.

Okay well I thought I read your comment as excusing his behavior to RBT in regards to his lack of comments.

How are "treating it like a null tell"(paraphrased) and "Excusing my behavior" not the same thing? I think that's where Scot was having issues. It's certainly where I'm having issues.

I don't see how it's the same thing.
I see this in my mind: Say I say the following. Chamber is like this no matter his alignmentt (this i see as a null tell) it's hard to say how to read him.
When I see this from scot in regards to RBT concern:

First off, chamber doesn't like reasoning. I haven't played with him a lot but I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a lot of reasoning

I see this as an excuse for his behavoir. Not a reprimand more like eh what are you going to do about it type thing

[farside22]

Is farside really trying to argue semantics right now?

Not really it was just more of a question in regards to your actions and interaction with chamber.
things to point out, things I notice. Interactions that seem strange to me.
Is there a reason not to point out strange interactions between players?

[farside22]

Unvote vote farside22

I love you too.

[farside22]

Unvote vote farside22

For the record, I agree that farside isn't really making any sense here, but I think she's probably town.

I wish I knew why people say I'm not making sense. I keep getting this reaction.

[farside22]

Is farside really trying to argue semantics right now?

Not really it was just more of a question in regards to your actions and interaction with chamber.
things to point out, things I notice. Interactions that seem strange to me.
Is there a reason not to point out strange interactions between players?

How exactly is what I did a strange interaction? I just pointed out that this is how chamber plays.

I'm wondering if your defending him using his actions as a null tell or just explaining it as a null tell.

[farside22]

The chart was designed to be a summary of what information players had decided to give D0. Chamber's refusal to provide information is scummy. Malp would get a vote too, if he ever posted in the thread. Hopefully he would actually feel somewhat compelled to share his motivations to the town at least. Now that CML has replaced him, he could be a functional player at the very least. My vote stands.

Why is it scummy that they never posted what they thought were potential roles in the game?

[farside22]

@RBT please answer my question:

The chart was designed to be a summary of what information players had decided to give D0. Chamber's refusal to provide information is scummy. Malp would get a vote too, if he ever posted in the thread. Hopefully he would actually feel somewhat compelled to share his motivations to the town at least. Now that CML has replaced him, he could be a functional player at the very least. My vote stands.

Why is it scummy that they never posted what they thought were potential roles in the game?

[farside22]

I really don't like the RBT bandwagon. I think Farside is a much better choice. A few times she has posted comments that were blatantly contradictory to eachother, yet using it as an attack against someone. If you pair that with the fact that she tried to use something worded incorrectly as a reason to suspect someone, then I think it's the only substantial grounds for a vote we have so far.

CoolDog was looking mighty scummy to me, but his recent scumhunting has changed my opinion on him. At least the points he's making aren't contradicting each other.

Unvote, Vote: Farside22

I don't understand the RBT bandwagon, or really see a decent reason to add my vote to it. I know Day 1's have very little to go off of, but I don't like how fast it grew, or the reasons behind the votes.

What do you think was a contradiction?
what was worded incorrectly? Are you talking about RBT saying someone claimed scum and never came back to say opps or anything to explain wtf he was talking about?

[farside22]

I will be getting through this game today.

[farside22]

Scot:
Coming to terms with it does not mean I came to terms with it. I'm still not that happy with the godfather due to how it affects whatever investigative roles we might have.

What do you think would have been best then?

I'm not understanding the yosi/sajin interaction.
Can sajin or yosi give the short verision on this argument. The probablity talk of vengeful doesnt' make sense to me at all.

Sajin said:
You are the one who jumped on right after me, declared me scum and yet have not moved your vote.

I didn't see that. What yos said was this:

I don't know. This attack he's trying to make against me here seems really farfetched and silly, but it's possible he's a townie just trying to stir something up.
That being said, if RBT is scum, then Sajin is a likely buddy for the way he voted RBT but then took the first chance he got to jump off the wagon.

Unless I missed something I didn't see yos call sajin scum at all.

The chart was designed to be a summary of what information players had decided to give D0. Chamber's refusal to provide information is scummy. Malp would get a vote too, if he ever posted in the thread. Hopefully he would actually feel somewhat compelled to share his motivations to the town at least. Now that CML has replaced him, he could be a functional player at the very least. My vote stands.

What are you a mindreader on what a person would do? You think chamber over malp for really weak reason's

Actually, that chart looks to me more like you're a scum who's trying to figure out which townie has what power roles based on what they said.

Agreed and that was my first thought looking at it along with trying to get more info on the 2 that never said anything.

Porochaz isn't winning me over much this game.
He just says things like this:

Happy with the cool dog vote. Some of his more recent posts havent swayed me. Farside is moving up my scum list but not really by that much. RBT is also high up there.

With no reason or follow through. It was the same thing at the start of the day where he says he's against GF but doesnt' expand on things till much later and when many votes were cast.

Leech post:
I think Farside is a much better choice. A few times she has posted comments that were blatantly contradictory to eachother, yet using it as an attack against someone. If you pair that with the fact that she tried to use something worded incorrectly as a reason to suspect someone, then I think it's the only substantial grounds for a vote we have so far.

First off leech didn't answer my question but lets brake this down a bit.
He says I posted comments that were blantly contradictory and the one he points to is this:

farside22 wrote:
I'm asking if he is this way all the time isn't it a null tell then? Why are you excusing it if it is a null tell?

The second statement directly contradicts the first. It also has a tone of stretching to make something sound true if you read her followup:

farside22 wrote:
I see this as an excuse for his behavoir. Not a reprimand more like eh what are you going to do about it type thing

Which I dont' see the contradiction so please tell me what it is.
He says it's attacking someone which again I don't see it as attacking it was a question to scot in regards to him to understand if defending chamber or explaining chamber's actions.

He doesn't say what was worded incorrectly that I'm attacking. None of this makes sense or shows any type of proof behind these comments.

Still happy with my RBT vote

[farside22]

I know the only issue I had with hypoclaiming was with giving the scum an RB. Since that isn't in the game I dont' see what's wrong with hypoclaiming.

[farside22]

I know the only issue I had with hypoclaiming was with giving the scum an RB. Since that isn't in the game I dont' see what's wrong with hypoclaiming.

Let's make this a worst case scenario to show you how bad it can be. There's three scum in this game and 9 town players. If we all hypoclaim that could make it so 3 players on the town's side hypoclaim protecting scum. If none of those three players die, then it cuts down on who could be the weak doc by 1/3'rd. Meaning, now instead of them having to locate the weak doc out of 9, they have a 1/6 chance of nailing that role. It can easily narrow down, for the scum, who the weak doc actually is.

Sure, the hypoclaiming may have worked in the past, but it's no guarantee it will work in this game. I'm completely opposed to the idea for that very reason.

I think this may be way scots was talking about people not picking the same player so it doesn't come to that.

[farside22]

I just realized that still can narrow down things for scum to 2 players.

What about Anon's idea on protecting someone you think is town? This way if there is a weak doc he can absolutely 100% (except the GF) clear maybe a player or two and protect someone they feel is protown at the same time.

[farside22]

Meh, I'm kind of busy this weekend, so I only skimmed the last few pages and looked at what roles scum got. Anything else important that I should know?
I don't see anything wrong with Hypo-claiming weak doctor.
Agree with Scot that Anon feels off.

Vote: Anon

Awesome stuff of noncontribution and following right here.

Elibereth why does Anon feel off? What is your thoughts on the RBT wagon?

[farside22]

In regards to scots/Anon debate this is my view on the manner
Scot says he is getting town vibes is different then Anon saying farside is town which sounds more like he knows my alignment.

RBT waiting on the claim and the lack of timing on the claim seems off.
yos already beat me on asking the questions in regards to timing.

Anon how do you figure what you and scot are saying is the same thing?

[farside22]

I can only say in leu of Poro's comments on Yos is that I'm town. It's always possible that yos picked someone else after everything was said and done at the end of the day. But I'm sure that will be characterized as WIFOM.
I will have my case of players I find with links to RBT by tomorrow.

[farside22]

@Farside, can you give a town/scum list please?

I will work on this. It may take some time so bare with me to do everything including the links I promised today.

[farside22]

Here is a list of my scum suspects and why:
First I looked into what RBT said about players.
RBT first major post he talks about Malp and chamber not giving info on what they think is out there.
He votes for chamber over malp. His comment about Malp not post is his reason for not voting.

RBT's scum list:

Since everyone wants a scumlist so bad I'll do it (but I won't be happy about it):

CoolDoG: "Claim or die claim or die claim or die" sounds a lot like "I'm gonna push this lynch because it's so easy".
Anon: see CoolDog
Chamber: I have no idea what his thoughts are. While I have no meta research, I don't like this either way. Flipping town or scum, he's still scum.
Farside: I find the idea blowing up such a small point tends to be somewhat scummy. However, her meta also shows that she tends to blow up small points either way. Definitely fourth, but I could consider this later.

There is a lot of weak reason's for this suspect list above. I find malp and the fact he ignores him as much as possible even when a replacement comes in as very telling.

First suspect Cooldog:

Start of the game and Cooldog Fos' rbt

So your def is for a vote is: They omgused me and fosed me they is a scum sir. not good, not good.
I am not a fan of crying omgus and don't like to use it as a def or as a voting issue (because i have seen tons of town players omgus...), however this def of yours is very week and it does not stand very well. fos rbt....

No vote from cool for anyone at this time. Why a FOS over a vote?

Wasn't this said by many over and over already?

At the time it didn't matter, he was still in the game. You are looking like a rolefisher like yos said. The fact is that you vote chamber because ether:

A) you don't like him as a person/player
B)mal was your scum buddy and you don't want to lynch him. It is true that chamber does not explain much to the town but at the time he was about as normal as anyone else, and was just as bad (by way of ur chart) as mal.

vote rbt

rolefishing, votine badly, acting scummy.

This put RBt at l-2 after many had already go over many of these things on RBT already. I suspect scum bussing at this point

Why would someone ask for a claim from someone at l-2 saying it was l-1.
just weirdness for me.


[quote="cool]@scot, any town tells for good ol' rice ball? If she flips el scum I am going to look at you, just so you know. And also when was scum lists bad? You are close to the point at which I might vote you. Scum lists are very good, very pro-town. In fact I would almost dare to say that you should post a scum list every day. So with this I want you scum list, And No bullshit, just give it right out. [/quote]
Setting up lynches. Interesting note now that RBT does flip scum.
And sure enough:

Right now as I said in one of my early posts before my v/la. I said that if rbt was scum I would vote for scot because of the fact that he did defend rbt. Thus I am going to vote him now for that, and for not going along with the hypo-claim.
vote: scot I will re-read more latter and my vote might change after a re-read, but as of now I am still slightly busy so I have to go. I hope my life will slow down so I can post more.

Cooldog does the weak FOS. Puts RBT at l-2 for the same reason everyone else does then points to scot as scum if rbt flips scum. This all looks like a scum move.

Next up:
malpascp/callmeliam/bob - This role has been filled with a nonexist player slot all day 1. 1 person completely flaked and the last 2 both claimed being too busy throught the day to post anything of susbstance. I call this the lurker scum tactic I have seen many a game.

Finally

Scots: my problem with scots is when anyone brings up the reason's they find RBT scum he gets town vibes from RBT.
I never saw him talk about the case on RBT.
Here is what he says about Anon

Anon has focused on three players. Me, RBT, and Cooldog. He ignores everyone else except for a few occasions where he breaks off to agree with Yos. He asks me, RBT, and Cooldog for scumlists (I'm not giving one, I have never done it before and don't plan on starting now) but not from Ortolan, Chaz, Leech (people he wanted to see post more), Chamber, and so on.

This is really hypocritically considerting scots only talked about me, leech and now anon as scum.
This looks really OMGUS in response to Anon's alligations

I'm getting a town vibe from RBT, I'll give more reasoning either after work or tomorrow. And i'm not giving a scumlist. I never do them. I'm not going to start all of a sudden to please you. I really don't care if you look at me if RBT is scum.

This is what he says:

As for RBT, I believe he was actually trying to help with the chart. And its not something that I can quote. It is just overall, due to scum being able to daytalk, I expect them to be more careful. Plus, I believe RBT is being sincere with all his posts and he actually believes that what he is saying is correct.

How can you think that he was sincere? How can you not look at that chart as blant role fishing?

This is more minor. I just felt scot stayed a bit too much away from the RBT wagon for reason's that make no sense. The chart with the comments towards malps and charter might as well have been RBT asking them to claim now.

vote: Cooldog

[farside22]

Its a shame, because farsides the obvious lynch, but I really like the cooldog/boberz pairing.

Do you think that yos would not change his mind on who he protected?

[farside22]

I hate it when there is someone infinitely more scummy than the person who is actually probably scum. Although that could be because farside has pretty much disappeared. Given up?

I gave a scum list that got ignored. Everyone talks of me as though I'm not here. I'm not scum but you have your mind dead set. If you want to ask me any questions feel free. I'm quiet happy with my vote at this time.

[farside22]

Who do you think Yos protected last night if not you? You have never directly answered the question.

Looking at yos in isolation I already can see my name as his town view but I think one of his last post may have been his thoughts that Anon could have been a target as well.

I still don't agree that it's a scumtell, mostly because I think most of Anon's posts where he explains his pro-town vibe about farside make sense.

If he's getting pro-town vibes from me why would he not protect someone else that feels the same way?

[farside22]

Also to note farside has been lurking, or active lurking as of late, just to point out that I don't buy her "I wun't lurking I swear!" comment. Farside is raking up points, and I would be glad to vote her over scot if ether:

I added my points, no one responded to my case. My views on people while answering question. Does seem people talk around me and say I'm scum based on yos death. Obviously it's damning. Communicating my thoughts and lay out reasons on who I think is scum is my best course of action
I figure I will be lynched and I hope after my mislynch people will look back at what I stated.

[farside22]

I'm just a vanilla townie so there is no loss of a power role from me.
I hope after my lynch you guys look beyond yos and realize that he wasn't breadcrumbing.
You guys have my top 3 scum suspects and my views to go on.

[farside22]

WILL.YOU.READ.THIS.GAME.!!!

I'm telling you he's scummy.

[farside22]

Farside was unlucky and I missed most of RBT game.

I didn't look at the GF role corrrectly. I didn't realize I needed to activate it so the weak doc wouldn't die. Had I done that this game would have turned out very differently I think.
Bad choices. Sorry Ort

[farside22]

wtf I got lynched? That was screwed up. How come you didn't claim doc farside? I guess I'm relieved at not having to persist in an unwinnable situation. I was surprised that scot was so persistent on me all game, well done there.

I thought for a moment by claiming town (VT) instead of fake claiming would leave me alive. I was hopping somoene would say why would scum claim VT.
Oh well.

[farside22]

Yay! Good game guys.
I thought it was Cooldog though, Ort was really good...
I'm very curious why I was shot N1, was it that obvious I was the mason thing?

I know how to read you when you have a PR.