Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Dry-fit]

/confirm

[Dry-fit]

The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion, not convince other players to vote your lynch target. Anyone who says that they're sure that they've found scum on page 2 is lying -- or possibly scum trying to look like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player.

But that's exactly what the purpose of Kmd's vote and comment were, to generate discussion. So you're saying he's scum for accomplishing the goal of this stage by creating discussion?

[Dry-fit]

Sigma clearly contrasted posts which are intended to "generate discussion" from posts which are intended to "convince other players to vote your lynch target". In a literal sense, these obviously are not mutually exclusive since a post which attempts to convince other players to do anything is inherently intended to generate discussion.

The reason I disliked his vote is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to "convince other players to vote your lynch target" at all, and I don't see how his post could have possibly been interpreted that way. I think sigma is misrepresenting him.

but Excedrin came and justified and over-explained (at least in my opinion, as I've explained) his vote on Papa Zito.

If there's anyone who's overexpaining here, it's you.

[Dry-fit]

The reason I disliked his [Sigma's] vote

is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to "convince other players

to vote your lynch target

" at all, and I don't see how his post could have possibly been interpreted that way.

O RLY? Because what Sigma said

when he voted

was "Don't you think it's a little early to start convincing players

that you've found scum?

" That is hardly a misinterpretation, since KMD said "Yep. You're scum. I'm sure of it."

Do you really think Kmd was being serious? Kmd himself has stated he was not. Excedrin interpreted his comment as not being serious. Taking what someone says literally does not mean it's not a misinterpretation.

Sigma didn't suggest that KMD was trying to convince other players to

vote his lynch target

until his

next

post, #38, so you're clearly not remembering things right.

Okay, so it wasn't in the same post, but it was clearly a point meant to support his vote. What's your point?

And if you thought this was such a misrepresentation, why didn't you

say

so in post #43? In post #43 you discussed a

completely different

(and quite silly) issue.
I did say so:

But that's exactly what the purpose of Kmd's vote and comment were, to generate discussion.

#57: Dry-fit says "The reason I disliked his vote is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to "convince other players to vote your lynch target" at all" which doesn't add up, for two reasons:
1. That is not what Sigma wrote when he cast his vote. Dry-fit just got that quote from Kast, just now. There was absolutely no misrepresentation going on when Sigma cast his vote, back in #33.
2. This is the first time Dry-fit brings this issue up. If this is the reason he disliked Sigma's vote, why didn't he say so in #43? Why discuss semantics if he had serious and valid reasons for mistrusting Sigma?

1. No, it's not what he wrote, but so what? Are you really going to argue that his stated reason for voting means something different?
2. I did say so, as already explained.

About "semantics": I never intended to have a semantics argument, and there never was one. sigma himself agreed that Kmd generated discussion. Here is the passage in question:

The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion, not convince other players to vote your lynch target.

My point was that Kmd has done the former(and no one has objected), and clearly has not done the latter. Where can a semantics debate pop up?

[Dry-fit]

No, it's not what he wrote, but so what?

You lied; and you think it's not a big deal?

No, I didn't lie. I never claimed that quote was frome sigma. The reason I used that quote is because that post was a response to Kast, who had used it.

Here is sigma's claimed reason for voting:

Don't you think it's a little early to start convincing players that you've found scum?

Here is what Kast wrote:

Sigma clearly contrasted posts which are intended to "generate discussion" from posts which are intended to "convince other players to vote your lynch target".

Do these really seem that different to you?

What do you say about Sigma's view: "My opinion is that this could possibly be scum trying to appear like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player, and I voted him to underline this point." Plum tells us in #84 that KMD has been known to do this as scum in other games.

It's pure speculation.

-You posted an attack on Sigma. Does this imply that he is your top suspect?

Actually, yes, but not so much because of what I called him out for before. His votes for Locke and Keelie look like attempts to place an easy vote without scumhunting. His vote for Keelie is especially bad. A day 1 lurker lynch with plenty of time till deadline nad a lot of other stuff to go on is bad.

He also won't stop talking about Porken's vigging statement. He's mentioned it three times. It's blatant rolefishing, especially:

@Porkens: were you serious about vigging KMD?

Yes, I have seen scum rolefish this blatantly before.

-Do you think anyone else has been suspicious?

Plum would probably be my second suspect.

-You felt that KMD's vote on Zito was not intended to lynch, but rather to generate discussion. The wagon on Zito is still there; what do you think about each of the other players and their reasons?

As far as I know, there are on 2 people voting Zito. I already stated suspicion of Plum, and will elaborate when I'm not so tired. I pretty much have a neutral read on Excedrin, as most of what he has posted has been related to theory. His reason is okay for an early vote.

[Dry-fit]

Forgot to

Vote: sigma

[Dry-fit]

How is voting for Locke and Keelie an easy vote? Usually, easy votes are placed on people who have already been seriously voted before. Both of my votes were their first non-random votes.

Easy because your reasons for voting them were they're percieved lack of contribution. You stated you felt they were not contributing enough, which is your opinion, therefore impossible to argue. I also don't get why you switched you're vote from Locke to Keelie so quickly, as you implied he was actively lurking, while Keelie was not posting. Do you feel not posting is scummier?

My read is he is either a townie who doesn't know how to contribute and is eager to do so but doesn't want to "mess up" again like he did with his Sigma case, OR scum trying to avoid attention and latch on to a "safe" mislynch wagon. If it goes anywhere, he could always drop responsibility back at me for suggesting it, if not, he still appears to be reasonably trying to help out the town.

How could I drop the responsibility back on you? I am voting for sigma voluntarily, you're actions have not influenced who my suspects are. Do you really think I could get away with trying to blame you if a sigma wagon were to get going?

I stated suspicion of Plum earlier, and here is why:

Keelie, I hear what you're saying. I generally avoid stuff like saying I'm Town and/or commenting on deaths at the start of a Day as any alignment simply because it's not worth the bother I'll get for that sort of thing as any alignment. I suppose I felt a little looser with that tendency than usual because it was the beginning of the game. I would say it's a personal nulltell - like slightly breaking out of my overall, town-scum-whatever meta in general - but consider it how you will.

This is just strange. First a lame excuse saying she acted the way she did because it was the beginning of the game. Then insisting her actions are a null-tell, right after a complaint about her insisting she is town.

I suppose I was feeling whimsical. The Kmd-is-always-scum-when-I-play-with-him-except-... pattern is one that's hung around in the back of my mind for a while and it's never appropriate to bring it up except in the very early game, and previously I've missed enough of the very early game that the opportunity never arises.

I have done this exact thing as scum, explaining away something I did that drew suspicion by stating it is a theory(or in this case meta) related thing that I had been thinking about.

FoS: Plum

She has done something else I have done as scum as well....

[Dry-fit]

@Dry-Fit-
I agree that it would be difficult for you to drop all blame to me if you successfully pushed a mislynch. However, that does not mean you (or scum in general) would not attempt that. If I were killed, it would make it much easier as you could boldly associate your push with a dead confirmed townie and try to gain credibility. Regardless, I think this is a significant enough possibility that my vote belongs on you.

I still can't fathom how this would even be possible to pull off. You asked me if sigma is my top suspect, I assume because at the time I wasn't voting. I don't see how that could possibly be twisted into you pushin for a sigma lunch.
No one would buy it.

I'm getting the feeling that one of the wall-of-texters is scum but it's hard to get a read when there are so many pointless arguments and semantic debates to wade through. I can't help but feel that at least one of them is doing it deliberately to bog the game down and look like a committed townie at the same time.

Not a fan of this. Setting up an excuse to vote any of several players
later on.

I don't feel any urgency to move my vote at this time.

[Dry-fit]

@Dry-Fit-
-I'm assuming your FOS on Plum indicates willingness to lynch her.

-Is your comment to LL also indicative of willingness to lynch him?

Upon reading him in iso, I don't find anything else he's done besides what I mentioned particularly scummy, so I'd only vote him to avoid a no lynch.

-Is there anyone you would be unwilling to lynch rather than a no lynch?

Porkens

-Do you expect that your vote on Sigma will have any relevance for D1?

Not likely at this point, although he remains my top suspect.

Can anyone make the case for lynching Zito? My impression is that the case is basically his reaction to the pressure early and that he hasn't been scum-hunting enough. I don't think that's enough, especially when he's been doing a better job of scum-hunting in the last couple days.

I have no such read for dry-fit and feel that his scum-hunting has been very lacking, so I would prefer to lynch him tomorrow between those three.

So not scumhunting enough isn't a good enough reason to vote for Zito, but it is to vote me?

Also, you have nothing to add to the case on Locke besides what Zito said?

[Dry-fit]

Vote Sigma

.

Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.

Not really. I am on a red ship too.

The bodyguard possibility is an interesting possibility that hadn't occurred to me, though.

Why is it interesting if you know it's not what happened?

[Dry-fit]

That's the only thing over the last few days that was worth commenting on? Seriously, any additional thoughts on just about anything else would be helpful.

Pretty much all the discussion today has been about people's roles and the theme, which I know nothing about.

@Dry-fit-
Does your race match your ship?

Yes.

@Dry-Fit-
Was your claim of ship color prompted by Excedrin's claim of knowing RC's ship color?

No.

Why didn't you blow up your red ship Dry-Fit?

Becuase it matches my race.

[Dry-fit]

Shit. I guess I am a miller then. Of course I'm not claiming scum.
I am Admiral ZEX, and am on Admiral ZEX's Vux Intruder.

[Dry-fit]

I should have realized I'm a miller. I completely forgot about

Both parts are colored how they would investigate (if that is possible)

Alliance

,

Hierarchy

or

????

actually, a question.

Is your name in red as well? I assume you're claiming that your win condition is the same as the town's?

My name is in red as well. My win condition is the same as town's.

Wait, what? Red ship that matches your race? How's that make sense as town?

You don't know that you are a miller, but your role is red? And for you to be a miller and red, you'd have to be a death miller, because all alliance flips green.

Look at post 370. There are three parts to a reveal, Captain name, race, and alignment(as we saw in Keelie's flip.) If i flip, the first two should be red, and the third one green.

[Dry-fit]

-I am basically both a vig and a roleblocker(which refutes Kast's belief that I just want to avoid an investigation.)
-Any player in space who I rescue instantly dies.
-My flavor is that I betrayed my race because of a fetish for humans.
-My role does not specifically say I am a miller, but it is hinted at in the flavor.
-I did not make any action last night.

[Dry-fit]

-I did not make any action last night.

Why not?

Because I felt with one scum dead the odds of hitting a town player were high enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Dry-fit]

Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.

I claimed because of this. Obviously I didn't agree that anyone on a red ship must be scum, and knew that if my ship were ever destroyed or I was investigated, I would be lynched. I didn't realize I'd be forced to claim everything about my role.

[Dry-fit]

@Dry-Fit-
-Why did you wait so long to claim?

I have been sick. I have been struggling in some of my classes. I can't always post immediately.

-Your reason for taking no actions is weak but plausible for not using a kill. It does not hold for choosing to not roleblock.

Every ship has a limited amount of energy to use for the whole game. I didn't want to waste it on what was pretty much a shot in the dark.

-How does a roleblocking ability negate the possibility that you claimed to avoid/forestall being investigated?
If you are scum, then there is no reason to believe your claimed ability.

I can't prove it now during day, but I could roleblock you tonight to prove it to you

-Convenient that your role prevents you from rescuing the claimed cop (and thus having your identity confirmed). What is the flavor for this ability?

There are animals on my ship that will eat anyone who enters it.

Regardless, what is the flavor for your vig, roleblock, and kill jettisoned player abilities. Does your previous claim refer to these abilities ie. are you implicitly stating that they are racial abilities?

The vig is a two-step process. First I have a laser that destroys their ship. Then I pick them up and they will be eaten by the animals. The roleblock is some kind of leeches.

-Does your statement that you are both a vig AND a roleblocker mean that you can perform two night actions?

Yes. I can do both in one night.

@Porkens-
He could have claimed almost immediately after Excedrin revealed that RC was on a red ship.

So I should have magically been able to get online and post while I was sick and busy with schoolwork at any given instant?

-By posting to defend Sigma (who players had already indicated they weren't very suspicious of), he also laid grounds for a similar defense of RC.

Where do I defend sigma?

-Btw, if you are scum with RC and KRW as your buddies, I am truly sorry for your misfortune and I suggest you just chalk it up to bad luck and hope for better next time. Also, if you get a similar situation, I suggest bussing heavily.

What would you suggest if I am town?

[Dry-fit]

@Zito: The flavor I already gave is pretty much all there is. None of the things you just mentioned are talked about in my role pm.

In my opinion, he should jettison his ship tonight,

I'd like to recommend no more of this. I think it's very possible that scum doesn't have a direct kill in this game and more players in space/ships destroyed probably only helps them.

I don't like Plum. Wants to quicklynch resulting in the death of two people, and I really don't like the "I still want you dead, moreso now," makes sense for scum to want a powerful town powerrole dead.

[Dry-fit]

How do you reconcile this with your D1 vote for Sigma? From what I understood, your vote on a player who was unlikely to be lynched was supposed to indicate strong suspicion of him.

Keelie's flip changed my opinion on him somewhat.

-I dislike that you still have not made any mention of RC. Please answer clearly what you think about RC.

I have read games he has played, and he comes off as scummier in this one. That plus a red ship he is still on makes me think it's likely he is scum.

[Dry-fit]

Don't forget:

Plum is scum.
No more jettisoning.