Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[Crazy]

/confirm

[Crazy]

Meh, I'm fine with random. Not much else to say.

[Crazy]

Wow, math. Though I can't say I wasn't expecting it in this setup.

When I signed up, I always thought that the first decision would be rather arbitrary.

Either:

a) Nobody sabotages and we destroy an Imperial base. 1/3. We don't get much information, but getting a point can't be a bad thing.
b) Somebody or multiple people sabotage, in which case we gain information to use in following rounds.

In subsequent rounds, I definitely think we should try to get as many pro-town people as possible, but here, I don't think it matters that much, because whatever happens, we benefit. Fishy might be right that the least ideal situation is exactly one spy in the group; I don't know about that, and I don't think it's necessarily true that that spy will always sabotage. *shrug*

Basically, I'll approve any proposal the first day, because I don't think it will make much of a difference in the long run.

And FL, Fishy's use of the phrase "if we don't spot it" made it painfully obvious that he was talking about scum using secret conversation in the thread.

[Crazy]

Okay, so I guess what this comes down to is what

is

the best situation for town Day 1? As for me, I really have no idea whether destroying an Imperial base or getting solid information is more important at this point.. If we're going to discuss stuff, then we have to discuss stuff in order to get to a certain conclusion. I suppose I'm fine with random because I just don't know what situation is most ideal for today.

[Crazy]

Y

ou want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example.

A

comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you

think

that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

[Crazy]

Y

ou want to see how scum could daytalk? Here's the first example.

A

comment which, coming from someone to whom the plans are being distributed, could imply he plans not to sabotage them tonight.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Do you

think

that was a breadcrumb or are you just citing it as a possible example? Because I can find fake breadcrumbs anywhere. Look how I bolded the first letters of your sentences? Are you saying "YA, I'm going to sabotage my plan tonight."

There is a clear difference between highlighting arbitrary letters and discussing what scum may or may not do at night.

But my post had a clear meaning... I was discussing that scum might not always sabotage if there was only one of them. If I'm scum and I'm the only scum that received a plan, then why would I need to breadcrumb my action.

Also, I have used the "arbitrary lettering" thing in the past:

We decide on who we want the vig to kill. Assume that it's Kmd. Then we have both the watcher and the vig target Kmd. 'Cuz then the watcher would know exactly who the vig was. However, if either the watcher or vig was RBed, this would make this less ideal. Even so, that's the case even if we don't go for this plan, so I don't have a problem with that. Remaining nights, the watcher just keeps watching the vig, and if the vig was ever NKed (or even RBed), the watcher would know who was scum (or mime.)

[Crazy]

But my post had a clear meaning... I was discussing that scum might not always sabotage if there was only one of them. If I'm scum and I'm the only scum that received a plan, then why would I need to breadcrumb my action.

That part of your post was not really relevant to the game, expressed no opinion, and talked about the possibility of a spy not sabotaging tonight. Whether or not it was intentional, this is far too close to a breadcrumb. I'm not trusting the scum to be stupid enough not to make the link between not sabotaging with one scum and not sabotaging with multiple scum.

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.

I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

[Crazy]

Well, sorry, I don't want to make any more "slips" and hurt the town, okay?

I will not be sabotaging tonight.
I will be sabotaging tonight.

Now if I'm scum, my buddies have no idea what I'm doing... does that cover it? If not, what the heck do you want me to do?

I was going to make a joke here, and then realized that it might be misinterpreted

So, I'll stick with, that still feels like you are just going off and overall defending too hard...if that's understandable.

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

[Crazy]

If people think I'm scum, I don't particularly care; it's not going to matter until later. What does bother me is if people find me making "slips." I'd hate to be known as an anti-town townie that you guys just have to "deal with" in a game that has no elimination.

Hmm...this feels off but I might be biased.

Either way, I'm just here to raise my PPD.

No, seriously. I have nothing important to say on the subject until more stuff happens.

I'm not fitting your meta of me? Not from when in Explosiva when I made a bunch of giant posts right before I was lynched just so I wouldn't be lynched because I was a "lurker?" I'm always concerned with being productive as town... I don't always succeed but I'm concerned about that.

[Crazy]

I noted to the mod that I was V/LA, and I still am, but I'm on for a little while right now.

I see the proposal was rejected. *shrug* I still don't know what the optimal play is, so as I said, I'll accept anything for the sake of the game moving forward.

I don't see the case on me, though. Is it that you guys think I made a breadcrumb or because of my reaction to the breadcrumb?

[Crazy]

Also Crazy, ABR, Psycho, why did you vote yes?

Because I don't see it making a difference. I like the idea of having some facts to base on our scumhunting, and I don't know what the optimal amount of town/scum to have in the plan is.

[Crazy]

Actually afaik my maths are correct as of my latest revision. This isn't a criticism of you though. I would probably support a me - Fish - Naba as the first three to get three town on the plans at first at present.

I'm not sure that the whole "people who post the most content are most likely town" thing works well in a setup like this. In a normal mafia game, scum just have to survive, really. Here they have to prove their worth, and putting through 3 people that are trying their hardest to look pro-town doesn't seem right.

Yeah, this is WIFOM, but that's what I live on. It just seems that scum would try harder to get on the plans than town. And seeing how both you and Fishy were

not

on the plan and were fighting against the plan... well, you can see what I'm saying. I'd be surprised if both of you were town, really.

[Crazy]

Your first point appears to be that content is a scumtell. I completely disagree. If you think we are trying hard to look protown, in a false way, point out why. Otherwise you are just randomly slinging mud at people.

Anyone can talk theory and look pro-town. It's hard for scum to post content in the ways of scum-hunting, but talking theory is not hard... and thus doesn't need to be rewarded by having plans given.

Your second point is that scum want to be on the plans, and therefore that ort and I are more likely scum.
1) At this stage in the game, it isn't at all clear that scum would want to be on the plans.
2) You've said yourself that you have no idea what kind of decision is good for the town- and hence for the scum- at the moment.
3) You appear to have randomly selected two of the six players who voted no.
4) I've repeatedly said I don't want the plans. I excluded myself from my random numbers.

Okay, if you don't believe ort's plan, then I'll take you out of the picture and focus on ort, then.

1. He believes that we should try to get plans of all town. Scum at least want

one

of their people on the plans, most likely, so they'd try to look pro-town.
2. Yeah, well that's me... and I'm not really going with the grain here.
3. It's because ort picked you two on the plan, and Nab. Nab didn't matter to me because he was on the plan to begin with.
4. But you changed your mind.

I'm not saying ort is obvscum, but I don't agree with his philosophy. I'd much prefer ABR's proposal.

[Crazy]

To those on my case: What the heck makes me obvscum?

[Crazy]

Firstly, this setup is a complete unknown. Theory is extremely important, and if we don't understand the theory I can't see us winning. Secondly, you were saying that people who had posted a lot of theory were more likely to be scum- not just that it was a nulltell. Both the players you named have contributed more than the average to scumhunting discussions (or certainly done more than several other players), so the accusation that we are covering for lack of scumhunting is false.

I think I might have misspoke when regarding it as a scumtell. It is a nulltell, but I'm strongly against supporting it as a towntell.

And yeah, looking back, you and ort have contributed in the way of scum-hunting... so I think I will disown what I said in the name of specific players, here, though I still stand by what I'm saying in theory.

I like:
veerus-Pyscho-forbiddanlight; coherent as a scumteam in favour of a 1-scum proposal from me yesterday.

I think forbiddan is scum; I'd be against putting her in a proposal with anybody except someone else that I thought was obvscum.

[Crazy]

My suspicion of forbiddanlight involves Post #24... it was obvious what Fishy meant, so what FL was doing looks like fake scumhunting. Certainly that's scummier than my *ultra-gasp* OVERDEFENSIVENESS!

And I'm really liking ABR now... I didn't consider that multiple sabotages was the best option for town, but he's absolutely right.

However, I'm certainly not as paranoid about scum communication as he is. If scum had pregame daytalk, they could have came up with a good code, but they didn't. Thus, anything that scum can see in each other's posts can be seen as town as well, right? Our best bet is to just look at every single post closely and nail anything that even could be a breadcrumb, and refuse to give plans to that person until circumstances change. This must sound weird coming from the person that had the alleged breadcrumb, but you all know I was just a little offended by that. I assure you, even if I'm scum, that was not a breadcrumb.

[Crazy]

If we're going for a townie ticket, there is no reason for FL to exclude herself. Opposed as I am to a townie ticket, I could stomach something like FL/me/ort or FL/me/NabNab. I would still favour a scummy ticket- perhaps Crazy/Pyscho/veerus is the best, as people who were all in favour of my proposal yesterday (or fence sat until it was too late), and hence are correlated, and individually don't look all that good.

Why the heck is FL on a "townie ticket?!" If she nominates herself and two other people on the basis of getting 3 townies, I will definitely not accept.

@Ort: Upon rereading your posts, I have abandoned my case on you, though content still =/= pro-town for me, and I want to avoid an impressment contest here.

Incorrect. Also, if we get two scum on the plans how do ya know both will sabotage anyway?????? Same with three. Seriously this logic is horrible.

It provides a higher chance of multiple sabotages, and as Fishy pointed out, actually a higher chance of

no sabotages.

Could you quote what precisely is objectionable?

And it wasn't precisely your overdefensiveness, it was more the fact that you felt the need to assure us it wasn't daytalk.

You asked what Fishy meant in that quote, when it was painfully obvious what he meant.

What's wrong with assuring you guys that it wasn't daytalk?

Despite everyone saying so already?

Well, I missed that.

[Crazy]

The fact you felt the need to when it really wasn't necessary.

You made it seem like it was.

Someone says your scum and that was a breadcrumb, what do you expect me to do? Say, oh yeah, it was? What would you have expected me to do?

Also, the longer the day goes on, the more the scum can try to daytalk- which is an immensely powerful tool for them if we don't spot it.

Fishy used the phrase "if we don't spot it." How could we spot daytalk by PM? I understand you're trying to "seek a special answer" but it was obvious what he meant... so your whole thing just seems fake.

Because I'm not scum? Or the fact that assumably, I think I'm town, so therefore, from my point of view, any proposal I make to have three townies should include me.

Yes, okay, but that wasn't addressed to you, though. That was addressed to Fishy... I was asking him why you were deserving of being on a townie ticket.

[Crazy]

I think I'm finally agreeing that a guided proposal is best... not necessarily for getting the best chances of whatever... but for getting more information from the person giving the plans.

Also, veerus, the 56%/44% odds aren't the win percentages; it's literally just the percentage of players that are town/scum.

[Crazy]

I think I'm finally agreeing that a guided proposal is best... not necessarily for getting the best chances of whatever... but for getting more information from the person giving the plans.

Also, veerus, the 56%/44% odds aren't the win percentages; it's literally just the percentage of players that are town/scum.

Do you realize that in a guided proposal you will not get any plans because of the suspicions placed on you?

If I don't like FL's proposal, I can still reject it. Just because I support a

guided

proposal doesn't mean I support

forbiddan's

guided proposal.

[Crazy]

You might as well switch to random because no one is going to follow your guided proposal.

That can change. Just because of some silly "breadcrumb" makes me look scummy now doesn't mean I'll be scum forever. So no, I'm not going to change my entire philosophy just because it doesn't support me personally at the moment.

Nab's last post takes in absolutely no account for distancing/bussing/etc. To assume that the scum would always vote together is

very bad.

[Crazy]

I'd go me, ABR, and Psycho atm, though I definitely know I'm in the minority here.

[Crazy]

It seems like this is becoming logic vs. scumhunting. I'll admit I joined this game for the logic, but since then I've swayed to the other side. But what we have to watch is that everyone doesn't automatically think the other side is scum... I mean the scum isn't automatically gonna be either "Nabnab/Fishy/Ort" or "ABR/Psycho/veerus," right? I think I've gotten into the wrong mindset, here.

I disagree with Psycho in this case, though, since most everyone already knows where they stand... and he is expressing a situation where nobody reveals any opinions... which is not only bad but impossible since the opinions are already out there.

[Crazy]

I think PsychoSniper's opinions are actually quite well argued. I don't think he has scummy motivations for arguing this way.

I don't think he has scum motivations either... I just don't agree with him.

I'm gonna read again before I say who I think the team of 5 rebels is, since there are a couple people who I just haven't noticed one way or the other.

[Crazy]

Ok...so, should I just put forward the proposal I put or should we do guided? I'm not sure what you all are saying, and now I notice rebel lists being made.

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

[Crazy]

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

Well, I honestly don't care about your opinion because I feel that you are scum and pretty obviously trying to mislead me. But whatever.

How am I trying to mislead you? I've hardly stuck to the same opinion for more than 5 minutes at a time in this game, and my last post clearly didn't have a point at all.

[Crazy]

Fish I meant in the same format as mine. Who would you say, if you had to choose, your five picks for most town are (you know the distribution of the game includes five rebels so who would you wager those are if forced to choose the most likely)?

Isn't the answer to this question rather obvious?

[Crazy]

I don't have much time to post right now. I owe this game a reread and such.

At the moment, I'll say Me Psycho ABR Veerus Fishy, but certainly don't kill me if I change my mind by my next post.

[Crazy]

I reread. In my opinion, order from town to scum. Not including myself, obviously.

Fishy:

At first I had my suspicions based on his attack on me, but then I found this quote, lol.

Any reference to potential scum night tactics would be the most obvious example.

Really, I didn't realize he was directing my breadcrumb at Psycho before, hence what FL claimed my "overdefensiveness." So yeah, I'm fine with everything that Fishy has done and I'd be happy putting him on a "townie ticket."

Psycho:

He's got a strong opinion and he's sticking to it. I don't see any case on him at the moment.

ortolan:

He was heavily posting at the beginning, but he has slowed since then. His earlier case on Fishy seemed like earnest town, though.

veerus:

Veerus is merely "okay," and he's the lowest spot in my rebel list. It doesn't seem like he's giving any great effort to try to look pro-town, which actually makes him look slightly more pro-town in my eyes. (yes, yes, WIFOM, but all town-tells are WIFOM.) Unfortunately, his quote here really bugs me:

Let's just random and get this over with. At this rate we will never agree to anything a single person will propose and I'm pretty sure we're way beyond our original 72 hour deadline.

I have very little tolerance for "give up" quotes like this, and I believe for good reason.

ABR:

What do you know, he's in my scumlist, though he's still my most favorable person in my scumlist. To be honest, I don't see why I thought he was so pro-town before. Simply, he's not. Aggression does not equal pro-town, and simply saying something with vigor doesn't make it any more convincing in a mafia game. Also, he's acting way too paranoid regarding daytalk; anything that fellow scum can notice we can notice as well. And his line of questioning to me, "People will never support your proposal so just vote random," seems like just cold manipulation.

Forbiddan:

Okay, she's not as bad as I thought, but sorry, I still don't think she's pro-town. What I noticed this time were her paranoid FoS's on Psycho and Ort for ruining her line of questioning with Fishy. Ort even made a special point to note that it was a futile question, yet she still FoSed him for it and never actually explained why it

wasn't

futile. She seemed

so

eager in that question, despite the answer being both obvious (Fishy said "if we don't notice it.") and not very useful even if she got it. So yeah, major fakeness alert.

Nabnab:

On reread, I can't excuse this post at all. Saying that either "scum favored proposal" or "scum didn't favor proposal" is just so off, that he's on my scumlist for that alone. It just reeks like he's trying to make a bridge into a different opinion, and I hate it.

I definitely support a guided proposal.

And I think Fishy's approach is a good way to go. We had established enough theory by voting time for the first proposal to determine that there is no plan that is really neutral in the eyes of the scum; they have no incentive (other than WIFOM) to vote for a proposal that is not 1-scum, so I think we definitely stand to benefit by drawing today's proposal entirely from either the pros or the cons of yesterday's proposal.

I'm going to abstract away WIFOM just for now so I can work things out; feel free to add it in later to the detriment of all of my conclusions.

-Scenario 1: Scum favored proposal. This would mean that only one of myself, ABR, and Crazy were scum. However, this fails to hold up because both ABR and Crazy supported the prosposal. If they are both scummy for supporting, than the proposal has two scum. This scenario contradicts itself.

-Scenario 2: Scum did not favor proposal.
--2A: Proposal had two scum: Unlikely. Both ABR and Crazy would have to be scum, and they would have had to have voted for a proposal that did not favor them. This is the other end of Scenario 1's contradiction.
--2B: Proposal had no scum: The most likely scenario in my eyes.

Therefore, a town centric proposal should either be the three who voted for yesterday's proposal OR yesterday's proposal itself, and a scum centric-poposal calls for selection from yesterday's rejectors (KOC, veerus, FL?)

The one issue I have with this reasoning is that it goes quite against my gut. I have misgivings about Rampage, Crazy, and Psycho, so I am apprehensive about assuming they are town based on a contradiction in a model.

KoC:

I didn't notice KoC much before, but he's certainly on my scumlist now. I don't have any more time, though... I think I'll have to explain tomorrow or so.

[Crazy]

What you object to in NabNab is only a slight extension of something I have said repeatedly- that it is likely the scum voted predominantly for the option that suited them. You object to this opinion in him, but have no problem with it when I hold it- this seems to be a double standard. What is the difference between our positions that makes his worse than mine?

With your post, you included the possibility that scum didn't vote together. Nabnab

acknowledged

that possibility, but purposefully ignored it, with his "I'm going to abstract away all WIFOM" thing.

[Crazy]

Excuse me if I got a little eager over what I thought was catching a slip. What makes it fake compared to overexcited town?

Because there wasn't a point to begin with. Can you just say what you were hoping to gain from Fishy's response, because I seriously don't see anything. What was the "slip" that you just said you thought you caught?

I didn't have time to post my case on KoC last night, because it was mainly a lot of little things together rather than one big slip or something.

I would also vote against the current proposal. I would strongly be against giving plans to Crazy, mostly because of his last page or so, and ABR and FL, not on the basis of scumminess at this point, but simply because I quite frankly never manage to read either of them until too late.

His FoS of me basically followed the wagon that existed and he provided no case at all, and not being able to read someone is certainly not a reason to keep them off any list; it may even be a reason to put them on.

I endorse any plan that ends in me being given a plan. ortolan's massive wall of math could either be intended to drown players who don't have time for that shit (me) or give the semblance of effort to make less active players look bad. Incident'ly, I cannot remember a single Veerus post all day of any substance. THerefore, I would suggest a me/Veerus/ortolan Proposal, although obviously I would be willing to compromise on one of the three in order to get at least two of them up in the spotlight.

I was surprised that it turned out that I wasn't the only one that made that point against ort, though I later abandoned it.

The big thing here, though, that made me laugh when I read it; it basically points to us that KoC is deliberately lurking so he would have to be "put in the spotlight." He wants two of KoC/ort/veerus to be put more in the spotlight, lol. Anyone else see how incredibly strange this is?

Also, the notion of putting people with a null-read in the spotlight contradicts his earlier notion of not wanting ABR/FL in because he couldn't read them.

ABR is fitting his meta - oh so very angry and jackassish.
Unfortunately, this is his meta for EVERY role. So I have no idea.

This post bugged me originally because it's completely useless, and I will always stand by the opinion that even if someone has a strong meta, you can still separate what is their meta from what is scummy.

At this point the best thing we can do is let FL make a triple die roll, random it, and see how things fall tomorrow. The only reason I didn't do that vesterday was because I'm a massive paranoid idiot.

Random Proposal for the reasons outlined above.

Reasons? See the previous quote. Nothing.

While I don't agree with ABR's frankly psychotic attacks in the main, I do agree that FL's flip-flop on self-nomination is extremely scummy. Therefore, I will support any proposal that doesn't include FL or ABR.

Someone already mentioned this, but that's horrible, because of the whole "we don't want exactly one scum" thing.

[Crazy]

This argument sucks. It's just a flame-war with the energy of a melted candle. What's the point?

[Crazy]

Crazy (for being generally coherent but not making sense. FYI, changing what you say every 5 minutes is an ideal way to confuse/mislead the town)

Thanks for giving me that much credit, but changing my opinion so often just makes everyone stop listening to me, which is what happened.

[Crazy]

FL is the main player I doubt in that proposal.
Nabakov and Fishy, I have no idea about... so I'll probably be voting Yes on this.

Wow, I'm really not understanding you at all. Are you accepting it because you think there's no scum, or more than 1 scum?

And I just

love

how you're jumping on the FL-is-scum wagon with absolutely no logic of your own.

I have found FL scummy and if we sent the three that she's proposed in I would expect her to defect.

How about we don't discuss scum strategy, huh? I mean, everyone still thinks I'm scum because I made a little neutral comment a while back, but how the heck are we supposed to interpret this? I am certainly not accepting this proposal after you just told FL to sabotage and any other scum that might be on the proposal to not.

[Crazy]

Totally incoherent. If FL is scum, you can be next to certain she is the only scum on the proposal. Quite simply, why put another on?

There's always WIFOM.

I'll probably vote yes because it's a reasonable proposal and because this day needs to end already.

Err, I'm guessing you didn't read? We absolutely can't risk this proposal going through.

[Crazy]

I'll still be voting yes- I'm not expecting to get the perfect ticket out of today, and my townie reads numbers 1, 2 and 4 is a pretty good shot.

Wait, Fishy, when you pointed out my "breadcrumb," you proceeded to write me off as obvscum. Why is it suddenly okay when Ort does it? And now you're actually going to accept the proposal anyway? Total hypocrisy if you ask me.

[Crazy]

Thank you for FINALLY coming out with the case.

A shame I already answered this and no one really responded further...

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that earlier, and even if he didn't, I did.

I'm kinda done with trying to argue with simple minded fools who can't be bothered to make coherent cases.

I bet I'm more frustrated than you are. The fact that ort can do the exact same thing I did and he is still on everyone's townlist and I'm still on everyone's scumlist infuriates me. How am I different from ort now, really? Even my reaction isn't any scummier than his "FORBIDDANLIGHT YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY DEFECT" now.

This isn't to say that I really think he's scum... I'm still guessing he's town, but for those who are saying that I'm scum because I made a "breadcrumb", they should at least think he's scum, too.

[Crazy]

At this point, as far as I'm concerned, any proposal is random since all picks are made on pure speculation.

That doesn't make any sense at all. In a normal mafia game Day 1, is all discussion just useless speculation and no better than a random lynch?

[Crazy]

This is weird because I was for your position at the start, but have since changed my mind.

The chances of getting 3 town by a random spin are about 12%, or approximately a 1 in 8 chance. Personally, I think I could find 3 town in this game in a lot less tries than 8. What about you? Discussion during the day helps quite a bit.

Also, even if you're impatient, please vote NO on this proposal... certainly you can understand that we want to be as cautious as possible regarding scum breadcrumbs, right? The fact that I'm on your scumlist speaks for that.

[Crazy]

Firstly, I've never written you off as obvscum (I'm practically certain)- and I have never been certain that your "breadcrumb" was intentional.
I find it deeply unlikely that FL and NabNab are scum together. Sure, there is always WIFOM, but two scum on the ticket is a big loss for a small gain. Because of this, ortolan's "breadcrumb" is unlikely to be meant as such- ort only needs to communicate with the scum on the wagon if there are 2.
I agree, however, that what ort said should not have been said. In this case, I'm fairly sure it was an alignment-neutral slip, but in general such things are not good. If FL wasn't the proposer, it would be enough to scrap the proposal.

I agree about ort. However, I don't see why my breadcrumb was enough to put me at the very bottom of your scumlist.

When I say I expect FL to defect, I just mean I expect her to be the only spy in three who gets chosen therefore it's a logical choice for her to defect

Crazy, how likely do you think it is that I am scum breadcrumbing?

Not very likely, to be honest. But why the heck would we want to take a chance if we don't have to?

To be fair, I thought you were scum for your reaction to the accusation, not the actual "breadcrumb" itself. However, this is a slight contradiction since you were the one who pointed out the supposed breadcrumb of ort.

I'll admit I was a little jumpy, but "overdefensiveness" is the crappiest scum-tell in the book. And if you want to go by reactions, ort's is certainly no more jumpy than mine, isn't it?

[Crazy]

At this point you might as well reject every proposal and make the game go on forever

You can use that craplogic to accept any proposal. If you are so impatient, why didn't you vote to accept the first proposal?

I dunno. it's more how it's expressed. Exasperation is one thing, but it's another when it's kinda...argh...I don't really know a good word for it...

It more felt like you were responding to getting caught than responding to stupid cases.

Pff, whatever. And you complain about the flimsy cases on you.

[Crazy]

Because it had one scum on it.

I'm just saying what you claim is "breadcrumbing" probably wasn't, and the fact you don't find it likely that it is, but don't want to take a chance is basically a sweeping argument for never voting yes. I was using a fallacy to point out craplogic, as you so put it.

Fair enough. But when there's a good proposal and no possible breadcrumbs, I'll accept that. Here, ort shouldn't have said what he said, and he knows it. I shouldn't have said what I said with the first proposal.

And ABR isn't scum anymore?

Nyeh, it's a shame that you really have done nothing to make me feel you are pro town.

Well, what can I say to that? You pwned me, seriously.

[Crazy]

Honestly, there is nothing you can say to that. It's more a call to do pro town actions, though confirmation bias in a very annoying thing that I have trouble getting over.

Thank you. I've been trying. At least I spotted ort's breadcrumb, whether it was real or not. And I shouldn't have been so jumpy before; I hadn't realized that Fishy was directing my breadcrumb at Psycho at the time.

[Crazy]

Early on, Crazy wanted to go with random because he didn’t know what was best for the town. This is a terrible reason. If you don’t know what’s best for the town, you discuss it. This feels like a thin disguise for wanting a proposal that suits the scum. This persists after the rejected proposal- but he does eventually agree. Convenient to come around after, rather than before, the proposal was voted on.

I always join games for a reason, because they have a concept that interests me. I only play Themes and Opens (and the occasional Newbie) for that reason. For example, when I joined Paris Mafia, I was expecting a very WIFOM-y atmosphere. When I join a Smalltown game, I expect lots of setup discussion. I first discovered this setup when Thesp (I think) linked to it on BGG in the General Discussion thread. At first I didn't really get it, but when Rishi put it in the Mini Theme Queue, I took a second look and was interested.

I began to consider how this would work with non-mafia players (I often mod games on another forum - usually not mafia because scum-hunting doesn't really come naturally.) I thought of this because it has a good dose of logic, and with a random proposal Day 1, you still get information so I thought it might work on that forum. At this point, I didn't really think there would be much of a difference between a random and guided proposal Day 1, since it was a win either way for me (as I saw it.) I never even thought of the whole "you-don't-want-exactly-one-scum" thing.

Thus, I thought when this game would start a random proposal would be instantly suggested. It was, so I went along with it. When I said I supported it because I didn't know what was best for the town, I really meant that I didn't know what was best for the town and I didn't think it would make much difference anyway. Obviously, I changed my mind later, as you did.

His read on FL. The question she asked me has been blown ridiculously out of proportion. Scum only need to get 1 townie very mistrusted, and we have little chance of a win. It feels like the unexplained suspicions of ABR, if not from scum themselves, are being latched onto by other people. What FL did was not in any way beneficial for the scum, and writing her off as scum on the basis of this is so wrong as to be scummy. To be fair, his read has been somewhat retracted in his summary.

Okay, I did go overboard. I still think it was marginally scummy, but it's not as big of deal as I thought it was.

Although, I'll tell you, my favorite scum-tell is when someone is making an effort to try to look like they're scum-hunting when they are really not doing anything at all. I have already said that I think the answer to FL's question was both

obvious

and

pointless.

As in, it was obvious what you meant, and the answer wouldn't mean anything either, based on what ort pointed out. And when she continued to pursue this, even FoSing Psycho and ort for "ruining" it, that really got my scumdar going.

I don't like this kind of sentence. It just doesn't feel like something a townie would write- why even bother considering that case?

In the past, people have mistakenly taken me defending myself as me trying to confirm myself as town, when in reality I'm just trying to refute the case. I now try to show my motive more clearly by making sentences like that.

[Crazy]

Also, would people please stop saying that FL would not put another scum on the list with her? I utterly disagree with that statement, especially since it just tells the scum that we're vulnerable to be WIFOM-ed.

[Crazy]

Actually, it'd be fairer to say I was town hunting with the intent of my question, to be honest.

Okay. My point still stands, though.

[Crazy]

If FL is scum, ortolan's remark is almost irrelevant, as you express.

It's not irrelevent. It's something that can be

painted

as a breadcrumb. A convenient scum tool even if the one who made it may not be a scum.

Who are you saying painted ort's thing as a breadcrumb? I'd guess that it wasn't, but there's no use in taking risks that it was, right? And no, Fishy's reason of "FL wouldn't put two scum on the same proposal" isn't good enough.

[Crazy]

I was scum with a bad start trying to recover. Given enough time, I think I had a shot.

The other scum were FL, Veerus, and surprisingly, Nabnab.

And no, what I said early on wasn't a breadcrumb, though it was really fun to pick on ortolan for doing the same thing.

I kept wondering if my scum-partners were hoping they could hit me on the head with something... typically I'm not good with scum-planning, so being in a setup where it was forbidden was interesting.

Also, I love this setup. It especially sounds appealing in real life play... because it gives a little boost of logic rather than psychology for people that aren't familiar with the game.