Mini 790- Skywalker Mafia: Game Over

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/confirm

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Yeah, me to.

And Millar claims right off, well, I don't like it.

Vote: TheAdmiral

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@ortalan - because it was way to early for TheAdmiral to be claiming a role and typically millers are not told they are millers, correct?

@Zazie - Ok, so you know there is a doctor in the game. Do you know who, specifically, the doctor is (like a mason or neighbor type thing) or do you just know there is a doctor in the game?

Also, do can you confirm the doctor's alignment?

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Ah, ok, so you know there is an insane doctor out there and that is the extent of your info. Good to know, thank ZazieR.

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Ok, lots of posting over the weekend and I have some questions.

@ZazieR - You know there is an insane doc and say your character is Jar Jar. You also have a post restriction. In addition to all that, do you have any special abilities? Also, you seem to be advocating a MafiaSSK lynch and yet you have not voted for him. What gives?

MafiaSSK and ThAdmiral, given that you have claimed Millers (aka Chocolate Townies), can you also reveal your character roles?

Unvote

because I have enough belief in (or maybe not enough doubt of) their claims.

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@ZazieR - your right, I am sorry. You did say you can only hammer and someone else suggested you were Jar Jar. I misread (surprise) one of your responses and thought you had agreed you were Jar Jar. And I wouldn't call it rolefishing, I was asking straight out

Given what info that has been revealed and my role PM, I think there are some very complicated role interactions happening here and if I am not at the center of those interactions, I will be close or have an affect on them. For example, I do not think the doctor's protection has any affect on me, irregardless of his sanity.

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@ZazieR - Well, as I said, I think our roles and abilities across the game are interrelated given what you, MafiaSSK, and ThAdmiral have revealed. It really sounds like Zwet has given each of us little hints and tidbits to piece together. For example, you know the doc is insane. This actually leads to why I put that tidbit in there about the doc, so I will address that first.

I was trying to be a bit subtle there. I should not have said I think. I should have said I know that the doctor's protection will have no affect on me. This gives him an opportunity. If he is required to target someone each night, he can target me with no fear that he will kill me. But he will also not be protecting me. I realized I should probably get that out there, just like you thought you should let the doc know he is insane. I doubt these little information tidbits will be revealed if they are not shared before dying.

That sort of leads me back to your first question, about motive. ThAdmiral knows he is a Miller and knew there was another Miller out there. MafiaSSK knows he is a Chocolate Townie and only realized he was a Miller when ThAdmiral said he was Chocolate and knew there was another Miller. More info that is most useful when shared. It just seems to me that all this info is meant to be pieced together somehow. I personally think you are obv town. My motive is I just wanted more information because I think it would help me and therefor, in my mind, the town. In my myopic world, I asked for that info without realizing how it would look or if that info would make you (or me!) more of a target.

I think there is info to be shared and I am worried that people will be lynched or killed before it gets out there. I doubt that any weird or non-standard abilities or info (i.e. does not believe in doctors or the doc is insane) would be revealed on death. That info could be game winning. Anyway, those are my thoughts and answers.

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@ThAdmiral - I think 'con the o' means 'confirm the other'

@ZazieR - Well, I would rather the doc have the choice than the scum. The doc is hidden and the scum now have a WIFOM choice as to who to target at night. That is just fine by me. Let them sweat it a bit.

@Azhrei - Suddenly you realize they have a pm that somewhat resembles yours? Really?

FOS: Azhrei

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I would agree with most of these post. It is by no means true that everyone who has to be replaced is scum. If anything, the odds say it is the opposite. Santos suggestion might be his misconception, but I think it might be him trying to raise suspicion on the replacements before they even have a chance to participate.

Vote: Santos

On side note, it is unfortunate that the player who participates the most has such a difficult post restriction to read!

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@ZazieR - Why would you pick ThAdmiral over MafiaSSK? If anything, I find it more likely that after ThAdmirals initial claim and then revelation of another miller that a mafia would take advantage of it by saying he is the other miller. Do you truly disbelieve them or do you want to lynch one to try and confirm the other?

@Sajin - Your point would be more accurate were this not a theme game. There are some really weird interactions and non-standard abilities going on and having two millers and partial confirmations does not a broken game make.

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@Santos - Yes, you ask questions of others about their replacements are scum conclusions, but it seems clear you think you know what their answer will be. Specifically that they, too, find replacements to often be scum.

Out of all the games I've replaced in here, the majority points to scum. What about you? Have you replaced many games? Have you replaced more often as scum or as town?

We might as well bank on these odds, you know? And possibly his a scum.

(Bold added for emphasis)

Doesn't your last sentence indicate you would be willing to vote for a replacement based on the odds you just set up?

Of course, then you backtrack later on.

If I intended to vote replacements then I would agree that I should be canned immediately for such a ludicrous provocation

Based on these two statements, well, I should be voting for you.

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Ok, so let me get this straight. You think one is a miller and the other is not. So you want to lynch one and that leaves the other where, exactly? If we lynch ThAdmiral and he flips scum, that confirms MafiaSSK as town in your eyes? And if he flips town, MafiaSSK must be scum?

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That didn't exactly answer the questions, ZazieR.

I guess since I find MafiaSSK more suspect, I find you wanting to lynch ThAdmiral first a bit suspicious. Its almost like you are trying to set up a scenario in which you establish that one must be lying so if we lynch one and he flips towns, we then should lynch the other.

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@ZazieR - Ok.

Mod: I will probably be V/LA for the weekend. Back on Tues morning for sure

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Well, at least we got one replacement over the weekend. I pity him and any new replacements trying to catch up. It really is a pain in the ass trying to read ZazieR's posts.

@ZazieR - I did say I was going to be gone for the weekend.

I am not comfortable lynching either ThAdmiral or MafiaSSK. It seems like most of us think at least one is town, if not both. This just reads like a bad scum ploy. We lynch one, but he was a townie. Someone else dies in the night and not the other, so he must be scum. We lynch him and suddenly, after the N2 kill, we are down 4 townies. No thanks.

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@millar13 - Because ZazieR has a post restriction, when refering to you she would have to say mil instead of millar13. Given that we have two people claiming to be millers, when she talks about them she will also have to say mil instead of miller. To avoid confusion, she will refer to you by the nickname Moth.

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In that case I would suggest ZazieR just use M3. Close enough. Can we get by this stupid name thing already?

@Zazier - ThAdmiral might have been fishing a bit, but so what. This is a theme game. At some point it is going to come down to everyone talking about their character. I think there are things in our role PMs that are meant to be shared. That whole 'think, feel, know nothing' thing means something as does the chocolate townsperson thing. Do you think it not worth it to discuss these things? Big difference between that and saying I am the doc or the cop or whatever. I know my role/character come right out of the Star Wars universe. Maybe it would not be good to say I am Luke or Kenobi or whatever, but I do not think the flavor is just flavor. I think it has meaning.

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I am sincerely hoping that more people will replace in soon. I do not think we have accomplished anything in the last 2 or 3 pages. As usually, I will be V/LA over the weekend.

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@ZazieR - Thought I had answered them. My thoughts are the same. I believe them both and do not think voting for either is a good idea. I especially do not like your assertion that one is town and one is scum. My opinion is at worst you are pushing this logic because you want to set up a ploy in which we lynch one who flips town so you can advocate lynching the other. At best, your are correct and if we ignore it and you are right, we have a few days to pick out which is scum.

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@Azhrei - I am against lynching ZazieR. She is at the top of my list for townies.

@ZazieR - I am not against discussing the millers. I am against lynching one of them on day 1. ThAdmiral claiming so quickly is a town move. Much like lynching you, despite the info it might generate, I do not vote to lynch someone you believe will flip town. We do not know what abilities people have and there is time to try and verify the miller claims, so I believe a day 1 lynch of people we think have a good probability of being town is a mistake.

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@Zazie - Yes, I can actually. In most games when someone claims miller right off, I get suspicious. As the conversation continued, and given my role, it became obvious that ThAdmiral was telling the truth. MafiaSSK is a bit more suspect, but again, it all fits.

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Because ThAdmiral came right out and claimed knowing it would make him a target. The double whammy of saying there was another miller out there put it over the top. I believe MafiaSSK a bit less because somehow didn't he realize he was a miller until after ThAdmiral started talking about the 'Chocolate Townsperson' thing seemed a bit opportunistic, but again, it rings true. I believe MafiaSSK right now because he hasn't been counterclaimed. Combine all that with certain things in my role and you knowing the doc is paranoid, it all just fits.

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Wow, didn't realize my vote was on anyone.

Unvote

It sucks waiting for replacements and I am getting a bit lost right now.

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Someone refresh my memory- did we have a third claimed miller at some point?

Basically MafiaSSK said something about thinking, knowing, feeling being in his PM. Azhrei said he had something similar in his PM as well.

I am concerned about the votes on Sting. I mean really, the guy had 4 posts and now zwet is looking for a replacement for him. Yeah, the low participation in this game sucks, but trying to get things going by starting a wagon based on 4 posts?

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How about we not wagon anyone until we get a few replacements in here?

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I would say you, Sting, and Azhrai off the top of my head. There just is not enough to go on yet, however.

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Sting initially disbelieving your miller claim and labeling you scum is fine. At least I think so given that I was under the impression that usually millers were not told that the were, in fact, millers. I was initially pretty suspicious as well. After all the 'chocolate' discussion and along with ZazieR also having info about other roles in the game, I now find it suspicious that Sting showed no inclination to reevaluate at all.

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I am also curious that the game title and my role seem to indicate a Star Wars themed game, but I really do not see that in anything else. Not sure if this is important. Just something that has been bugging me.

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I think I understand the point against Sting and Azhrai, but why Ortolan

@Sirgonious - some things he has said. This is a quote from when Ortolan initially expressed suspicion of you.

He's good at appearing relatively inoffensive and not doing too much and being generally friendly, not drawing attention to himself and largely commenting on irrelevancies.

This fits Ortolan himself very well.

Then when he votes Sting this is what he says

Sting and Zironigous and Sajin have all placed anti-town and opportunistic votes

But later on says this

placing anti-town and opportunistic votes does not guarantee scum

But continues to vote for Sting despite the fact we are waiting on a replacement for Sting.

Finally, he was trying to get a wagon started on ZazieR. It struck me the wrong way.

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Do you not see the disconnect between the second two statements I quoted? You list three people as scummy for a given reason then later on say that that very reason you gave does not guarantee scum. You are either trying to give yourself and out for being wrong or you are scum trying to come up with an explanation in advance. I hope it is the former.

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I think even ZazieR is V/LA

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It seemed you haven't been as vocal as you have been. I feel like this game is dieing on the vine and I find that sad.

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@Azhrei - well, as you used my points and added to them, I must say I like the case. As with Sting, however, until we get some replacements in here, I personally will only voice my thoughts and not vote.

@ThAdmiral - I know it is frustrating to wait. But without a full complement of people reading and voting, we lose to much information. For example, the D1 lynch is almost always a townie. You can pretty much bank on there being at least 1 scum on the lynch, usually 2. Now throw in the NK, investigations, other night actions, etc and you have tons of information. The lack of replacements and the non-actions of those being replaced skews everything.

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Sorry Ortolan, gotta call you out on this one.

Then proceeds to list all the many players I've attacked

Nice of you to only use a partial quote and use it for mischaracterization. I guess anything over 1 could technically be a list, but I think 'many' is stretching it a bit when the only two people I list are Sting and ZazieR. Basically everything you have said reeks of OMAGUS. Doesn't really matter I guess as I won't be voting for you even though your reaction to casually being mentioned in a list of the 3 people I find most scummy seems overly defensive, but whatever.

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Appeals to pity will not work. I hope you read my response, because in it I will actually defend you for a bit.

Ok, as I stated, the case Ortolan made against ZazieR struck me the wrong way. I am still not sure why, exactly. Maybe it was because he was repeating something I said. Maybe it was because it was one good point that was not followed up. Maybe it was the offhand way he made the case. Maybe it was because I felt and feel ZazieR is obvtown and yet he voted for her. I am not sure. What I do know is that I thought ZazieR seemed to me to be trying to set up a situation in which if we lynched one of the claimed millers and they flip town, then the other must be scum so we would have to lynch the other next. This is what Ortolan repeated as his case when he voted for ZazieR. So the one point case made by Ortolan was not bad if perhaps not well executed.

Alright, now is the not defense part.

@Ortolan - You say you were trying to see if scum would jump on you for making a case against ZazieR, but the specific case point you made had already been made by me and discussed at least a bit. Please explain how you intended this to work since the point was valid and I had not already been really jumped on by anyone, except maybe ZazieR, for making it?

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@Ortolan - You did not answer my question. Would it not be even better to win AND be able to say I told you so? Mind you, I think this is a ploy. I have questioned you and definitely suspect you, but other than saying you are currently one of my top 3, I have not said I want to lynch you in particular. So please, answer my question instead of playing the poor me card.

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@Ortolan - Well, I am glad I am not voting for you Ortolan. I hate having to put those damn bold tags on my unvotes. I do have a question and it is most certainly not intended to try and make you look any more guilty or innocent as until I see a counter claim, and possibly even then, you are on my townie list.

Could you expand a bit on the vig part of your doc/vig claim? ZazieR said nothing about that vig thing.

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Could be a long wait. Generally I believe a doc claim on D1 simply because it is so advantageous to the town for a real doc to counter claim immediately. Yet another reason for us to be patient and wait for the replacements. Once they have all checked in and if there is no counter-claim, Ortolan is gold. It just sucks waiting

@zwet

- perhaps indicating things are heating up and the game will move quickly once full will help in recruiting

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@Ortolan - Please do! Did you forget the part where I am immune to the doc? I have already stated that if the doc is compulsive (must target someone) he can target me safely. Don't just hint you are going to target me, PROMISE you will target me.

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@Ortolan - Huh? Did you even try to follow the thread and the conversations with ZazieR? She said that there is an insane doctor in the game. As a result of that conversation I thought there were two things that were revealed and discussed. First, I revealed that the doc (looks like you) could safely target me and he would not kill me. You will also not protect me from a night kill, but whatever. We discussed and were undecided on whether or not the doc knew he was insane without ZazieR revealing it. You say you are the doc/vig. Given that previous conversation, does it not follow that I would be curious as to why you said doc/vig and not just doc? Maybe a better question would be, did you know you were an insane doc before ZazieR revealed it?

I am not sure how I am trying to tie up a power role, but I do think it is pretty sweet how I turned your threat to target me back on you and showed how you completely forgot or dismissed a significant development from earlier in the game. You will target me or not as you decide no matter what you or I say, of course. Personally, its a win win situation for me and I think the town. If you target me, you won't mistakenly kill some other townie. Also, if you do target me and we both live through the night, you will be 50% certain I was telling the truth and 100% certain that I was willing to risk you targeting me.

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@Ortolan - That's fine. Do you consider attempting to verify ZazieR's claim of knowing the doc is insane discussing role functionality? It makes sense that you would not know you were insane.

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Yes, I do to. Thank you.

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@Sirgonous - I think you were already voting for Millar13.

@Ortolan - I think the OMGUS label better applies to Millar13. While Azhrei was not voting for Millar13, he stated a case against Millar13 to which Millar13 responded by voting Azhrei.

@ZazieR - I know you can only hammer. It occurred to me that I do not think I asked something else I had wanted to. MUST you hammer if the option is available? I can just see Zwet doing something to make L-2 really L-1...

Also, since you cannot vote, who is your current FOS?

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@Ortolan - Not sure if you were talking to me, but even if I wanted to I would not vote for Millar13 until Starbuck has posted her thoughts. Same with ZazieR. He should only be at L-2 anyway, so no worries just yet.

We have an advantage knowing, or at least believing, ZazieR can only cast hammer votes. If ZazieR comes out and says whether or not she will hammer Millar13, there is a chance of effectively making the L-2 vote a hammer vote.

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@Azhrei - Listing posts in which Ortolan changes who he thinks is scum is not indicative of anything at all except maybe that he is trying to keep an open mind. As you say, with no counter-claim and ZazieR's statements, Doc Ortolan is about as town as you get without a confirmed sane cop investigation. (And to answer your question to ZazieR, she had already said she received no information about doc alignment, only sanity.) Persuading him will be tough, I think, but he is one person. He has not countered any of your arguments and neither, I feel has Millar13 responded well to them, so no need to antagonize. Convince me and convince the others not voting.

@Looker and Starbuck - It has been 2 days. Surely you have had a chance to form an opinion by now?

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@Millar - Azhrei has a point. I think he could condense his case so it is easier to read as we can all go back and read the quotes and whatever as needed. But whatever, you do not seem to have addressed some of the points Azhrei has raised. If you could also try to make a single, coherent post with your case against Azhrei it would help.

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Wait, does this mean you CAN get night killed even with Ort protecting you?
Er... then what's the good of him targeting you?

I believe that is correct. Without trying to quote anything in my role PM I have been told that the doctor would have no affect on me. As to what's good about him targeting me, well, he is supposedly paranoid so has a 50/50 shot of either killing or saving his target, correct? As I stated before, if the doc is compulsive and does not want to risk the 50% chance of killing a townie, he can safely target me.

@Looker - Please say something to indicate you are at least still around. I have been deliberately waiting for input from replacements because I really do not have any strong negative feelings about anyone.

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Well, I have no problem with a no lynch. I just do not see enough evidence against anyone right now. Not sure exactly when the deadline is on Monday, but I will be sure to check in ASAP when I get to work that morning.

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Well, I think we can count 8 people on the lynch, even if Zwet does not

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@ZazieR - Yes. My role IS Star-Wars themed, or at least I think/thought it is/was. I am not that familiar with the Star Wars universe outside of the movies (i.e. I only read one or two books), but when I see words like Nexus and Kai-Mone in my pm coupled with the title of SkyWalker, it sure sounds like Star Wars to me. You can consider those both claims as well if you want, of both role and affiliation. I can certainly try to describe them in more detail if you would like. I will try to do so without quoting my pm should you wish me to do so.

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I think Knight and I cross posted. As I mentioned, it sure sounded to me like a Star Wars theme in my PM. About the only thing not 'Star Warsy' in my PM was the fact it said I was in a small Italian town. None of the stuff makes much sense to me outside of a possible Star Wars or at least sci-fi context.

As I mentioned above, if anyone would like me to try and better expand on my role/abilities then I will try to do so as best I can. I am tempted to try and do so anyway, as I now am no longer sure about some of the things I had read. There are a few very specific parts, such as me being absolutely sure I am immune to the Doc's protections. There are some I am less sure about now

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@Sajin - No, I am sorry. No name was given the town in my pm.

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@Kise - No, I do not know what you are thanking me for. You will have to elaborate.

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@Kise - wrong thread for me or Knight? To my knowledge, this is the only game in which both you and I are playing.

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Ok, I freely admit I am thuroughly confused now. Maybe Zwet should have called this bannana split mafia. 2 self-proclaimed chocolate townies, 2 dead vanilla townies, and now a strawberry townie? Seriously? Ortolan, do you have a flavor? ZazieR? Anyone? I certainly do not.

And Kise, I am still not completely sure what you are talking about. When you talk about eliminating the annoyance, I think you mean either killing Azhrei (which I most certainly did not do and pretty much believe Ortalan did) or you think I am somehow responsible for having ZazieR's post restriction removed. I guess the second is possible, but it is not something I knew would happen or tried to do intentionally.

I think we should take up Knight's offer. I am not sure it proves he is townie, just that he was at least truthful in saying he could avoid a lynch. Still, I would be inclined to believe he is townie if true simply because this early in the game it would be an insane risk to take. He knows if Ortolan had doubts about his claim, Ortlan could 'protect' Knight at, well, night!

Therefor

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

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I have never been in a game with a Villiage Idiot, but in looking at the wiki, I was under the impression that to win the VI would have to be lynched on day 1? Either way, I think it worth the risk to get a confirmed townie. Ah well, I am out for the day and will be interested to see what has happened when I get to work in the morning!

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@All - I am confused as to what Kise is talking about when he refers to me. He definitely seems to have some knowledge of my role/abilities. If he is trying to imply that he is a watcher or a tracker and so can confirm actions I may or may not have taken, that is fine. It is also possible that there is something in his pm that gives him knowledge of me that he now recognizes from my prior posts, sort of like ZazieR and ThAdmiral. The reverse is not true. I have absolutely no knowledge of his role, abilities, or alignment either in my pm or from any actions/abilities I have or can take.

@ZazieR - Do you think it possible Knight is taking advantage of the whole chocolate/vanilla thing to win as the Jester? I am still inclined to risk it because I do think the value of having another semi-confirmed townie is tremendous. I disagree with Knight when he says it is pro-town to vote for him. Both scum and town have to make the decision as to whether he is a Jester. There is just as much incentive for the scum to try and appear pro-town if he is not the Jester and vote for him as there is for town to semi-confirm another townie.

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@Starbuck - If it is Knight's win condition to get lynched, does him winning necessarily mean everyone else will lose? Typical townie win condition is 'you win when all threats to the town are eliminated'. Knight fulfilling his win condition may not preclude others from winning. As I said before, I have never played in a game with such elaborate roles and win conditions, so could use some insight. Heck, I do not have an explicitly spelled out win condition, just a statement that I should help the town. Very confusing and frustrating

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Good enough for me. My vote stays.

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@Ortoaln - I would like to point out that though KoCs claim might not be optimal play, it is what we have to deal with it so we should deal with it and use it to the best of our advantage. Him being a NK target, well, I think you are wrong that he is an obvious target. The scum have some serious WIFOM problems with the night kill. Try to kill a mostly confirmed townie who may also have other powers when there are two protective roles out there or leave him and go for the now higher probability of getting another power role and leave the town with the advantage of having that semi-confirmed townie around for another day. Maybe it is not so obvious a night kill after all. The point is, whether it was a good move or a bad move, we have to decide if we want to follow through on KoCs plan. I think the reward is worth the risk under the current circumstances.

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@Sajin - No, I am not.

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I believe KoC said he had to hammer himself, so anyone else considering voting KoC please wait until he verifies/hammers.

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Well, that sure is alot of speculation there Sajin. I am not Jack Kemp. I already revealed my character and role. Instead of trying to make something out of nothing, go back and look The Italian town thing is right from my pm and directly correlates to me talking about my lack of an explicite win condition. You may be right that I am neutral. I do not know, but do not believe so. When I am told I was passing through an Italian town, sensed the evil there, and decide I must help the town, well, I just assumed I win with the town. Let me know if you think otherwise that means something else

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I have no more flavor to share, Sajin. My flavor and role are exactly as I have said. I am a Kai-Mone martial artist (character - no name given) and a semi-random Nexus (role) as I already stated. The rest of the flavor is again as I stated - I was traveling and passing through this Italian town and thought I should help it against the dark forces. Would you like to know all about my abilities as well? I have already talked about the one, being immune from the docs 'protection'. I am also specifically only able to use my abilities at night, so a lynch will definitely work on me.

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Well, I do not know how Judas roles work. Do they have to become scum to win? What happens if they survive until end game or are night killed?

I find your two hypotheses to be incompatible. This is only a 12 person game. You seem to think both that someone was recruited AND that KoC is a Judas role? I supposed it is possible. This game is fast becoming one in which it seems the task is to figure out the convoluted set up and rules more than it is about scum hunting/hiding.

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Alright, so if we do not lynch KoC and he survives the game, he wins with the town is what I am getting at?

And Starbuck, you miss my point. In a 12 man game, a recruited scum and a Judas means a minimum of 3 scum in the game. Do you really think that the game started off with only 1 scum? Again, given how screwy this game seems to be, it is possible. I just do not think it probable. I therefor think that EITHER KoC is not Judas OR you and Sajin are wrong about someone being recruited. I just do not know and am not sure I really care all that much any more.

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@ZazieR - Nothing I said in that last post is anything new. At best it is all condenced in one post. I dislike Sajin trying to imply I said or even implied I was neutral. I have been very consistent in saying I beleive I win with the town despite no specificly stated win condition like in a normal games. I tried to paraphrase what was said in my pm, which is basically that I was told I should help the town. I have been very consistent in saying I think this means I win if the town wins. The fact that Sajin is trying to imply I have said I am neutral or think I might be neutral is a mistake at best and a deliberate mischaracterization at worst. I believe it is the worse case and will therefor

Unvote

[/b]Vote: Sajin[/b]

Sorry KoC. You have proved your townieness enough for me. I would rather vote for someone I find scummy rather than try to semi-confirm you.

[Kreriov]

Damn, messed those tags up.

Vote: Sajin

[Kreriov]

Sajin's logic is correct even if his assumtion is wrong. I can be night killed I just do not understand why, if I were immune to night kills, it follows I am scum. I just see all this wild speculation followed by mischaracterizations and see scum.

[Kreriov]

Glad you don't like it. I still think he is scummy.

And he heavily implied that his role PM showed him as neutral, at least to start.

(Bolded part is mine.) This is a lie. I have never said I thought I was neutral. The one post where I even allow that I might be neutral the allusion is rhetorical to show not only that I am town, but that I want Sajin to follow my logic as to why I am town. Instead, Sajin tries to twist my words and try to say I said I am neutral. Here is where he does this. The bold was added by Sajin. Looking at the just the bold it certainly does look like I say I might be neutral, but that is certainly not what the entire quote means. I see no other way to interpret this but as Sajin trying to misrepresent what I said.

Well, that sure is alot of speculation there Sajin. I am not Jack Kemp. I already revealed my character and role. Instead of trying to make something out of nothing, go back and look The Italian town thing is right from my pm and directly correlates to me talking about my lack of an explicite win condition.

You may be right that I am neutral.

I do not know, but do not believe so. When I am told I was passing through an Italian town, sensed the evil there, and decide I must help the town, well, I just assumed I win with the town. Let me know if you think otherwise that means something else

I see no other way to interpret being told I think I should help the town. If anyone at all thinks that I have made a mistake and I do not win with the town, please let me know.

I am not sure where the Jack name came from. It looks like I made a mistake when replying to Sajin and used Jack instead of John. Whatever. Yet another example of Sajin desperately trying to use anything he can to sling mud.

[Kreriov]

Bah, bunch of messed up tags. EBWOP

Glad you don't like it. I still think he is scummy.

And he heavily implied that his role PM showed him as neutral, at least to start.

(Bolded part is mine.) This is a lie. I have never said I thought I was neutral. The one post where I even allow that I might be neutral the allusion is rhetorical to show not only that I am town, but that I want Sajin to follow my logic as to why I am town. Instead, Sajin tries to twist my words and try to say I said I am neutral. Here is where he does this. The bold was added by Sajin. Looking at the just the bold it certainly does look like I say I might be neutral, but that is certainly not what the entire quote means. I see no other way to interpret this but as Sajin trying to misrepresent what I said. Here is what Sajin posted. He added the bold. You all read it without the bold and tell me if you think he was trying to twist words or misrepresent what I was saying.

Well, that sure is alot of speculation there Sajin. I am not Jack Kemp. I already revealed my character and role. Instead of trying to make something out of nothing, go back and look The Italian town thing is right from my pm and directly correlates to me talking about my lack of an explicite win condition.

You may be right that I am neutral.

I do not know, but do not believe so. When I am told I was passing through an Italian town, sensed the evil there, and decide I must help the town, well, I just assumed I win with the town. Let me know if you think otherwise that means something else

I see no other way to interpret being told I think I should help the town. If anyone at all thinks that I have made a mistake and I do not win with the town, please let me know.

I am not sure where the Jack name came from. It looks like I made a mistake when replying to Sajin and used Jack instead of John. Whatever. Yet another example of Sajin desperately trying to use anything he can to sling mud.

[Kreriov]

No, I do not. Of course, I am more concerned with your lying and misrepresentation of things I have said than with your wild speculations.

[Kreriov]

Again, that is a lie as I have already demonstrated. I have scum hunted and found you. Your own actions betray you.

[Kreriov]

Ah yes, meta and charges of failure to hunt scum. The last bastion of a failing attacker, either scum or town. Well, if Sajin feels I have not been hunting scum, she might want to go back and read the game again. I have only completed 4 games here, so I am not sure how effective my normal scum hunting techniques might be. From other sites and in my personal experience, people who lie, mischaracterize, misrepresent, or try to unreasonably stifle information gathering are scum. I do what I can to catch people doing those things and guess what, Sajin is a textbook example. I guess that is not scum hunting if the person being caught is Sajin.

[Kreriov]

@MafiaSSK - Well, Sajin was 5th on the Millar13 wagon. I do not put much stock in that as a tell, but I do think her reason for it was worse than weak.

Well since the deadline is tomorrow I support the only lynch we have a chance of getting.

vote millar13

Better to no lynch than lynch a townie. Hell, two posts earlier Sajin even said the following:

Millar is not scummy. But I would like him to contribute more.

Sajin's vote and her reasoning do not get much more scummy.

[Kreriov]

First,

If my logic is right than how am I doing any of the things you are accusing me of.

Another misrepresentation. For those who do not want to go back and reread, the place where I say Sajin's logic is correct is immediately after a ZazieR post debating something with Sajin. I think it clear I was talking about that local debate and even then I point out that while Sajin's statement was correct logically, it made bad assumptions based on speculation. It was definitely not any type of endorsement of Sajin's overall theories and has no basis in fact or in anything i have said or done.

This is just another example of Sajin lying or misrepresenting. The most blatant is her saying I said I was neutral. Here are the facts with post numbers so anyone can easily check my veracity.

In post 871 Sajin says this:
[quote="Sajin]I do not know what kreriov started as (If I had to wager a guess, neutral) but now he is scum.[/quote]
In post 872 I respond like this:

Well, that sure is alot of speculation there Sajin. I am not Jack Kemp. I already revealed my character and role. Instead of trying to make something out of nothing, go back and look The Italian town thing is right from my pm and directly correlates to me talking about my lack of an explicite win condition. You may be right that I am neutral. I do not know, but do not believe so. When I am told I was passing through an Italian town, sensed the evil there, and decide I must help the town, well, I just assumed I win with the town. Let me know if you think otherwise that means something else

Read the whole thing. I think it very clearly I am using a rhetorical phrasing allowing for the possibility that I might be neutral so I may not only forcefully discount it but give Sajin (and anyone else) the opportunity to see why I discount that possibility. But that is not good enough for Sajin. Later on in post 899 Sajin quotes post 872 and bolds only the sentence with the word neutral in it, again claiming I said I was neutral. Not only did I NOT say I am neutral, Sajin was the very first (in 871) to speculate about my alignment and lies about it.

@ZazieR

Better to no lynch than lynch a townie.

No.
Also, how come you never addressed this before?

Because I did not do a reread of Sajin in isolation until then. Once I did, it was very obvious. She clearly says Millar13 is not scummy and then votes for him anyway just to lynch someone. And yes, a no lynch is always better than a townie lynch. Until the lynch, you do not really know is the catch. But if you really think someone is a townie, you should not vote for them. Sajin did.

Finally,
@Sajin - I have no problem with your quest to find Kemp. It may or may not be a good line of inquiry. I am not sold on it or even that there is a Kemp character in the game as opposed to just flavor. You are making wild speculations with no evidence. At worst, it is an attempt to distract. At best, it is something we can consider later. Right now, however, you might as well have scum stamped on your forehead and I see no reason to do anything but keep the spotlight clearly focused on you.

[Kreriov]

@Ortolan - How would KoC be mod confirmed if we lynch him and he does not die? At best all we know is he told the truth about being immune to a single lynch and at worst he is a Jester or Traitor or something. Would lynching him again serve a good purpose? And what do you think about Sajin voting for Millar13 after saying he was not scummy? And lying and misrepresenting facts?

[Kreriov]

Bah, you are right ZazieR. Sajin is a he. I know that as I have been in a few game with him! I am sorry Sajin.

We can just agree to disagree then ZazieR. No lynching on D1 is the worst day to not have a lynch, but lynching a townie is ALWAYS the worst choice. You say no lynch means no info. It might not be as much info, but it also means town PRs get another night to do their thing. Sajin clearly thought Millar was not scum so should not have voted him if town aligned is how I see it. You are not exactly the same. You allowed that Millar might be scum though thought there were better targets out there. Plus your play has been much more townie in my eyes. Sajin's wild speculations and misrepresentations are not townie.

@Kise - No, I did not say I had anything to do with ZazieR's post restriction. The only time I talk about it being removed is in response something you posted in which you seemed to be giving me credit for removing the 'annoyance', which I interpreted to mean that post restriction. I will repeat no that I may or may not have had something to do with it, I really do not know. If it was removed because of something I did, it was certainly not deliberate and not something I did intentionally.

[Kreriov]

@ZazieR - I understand now. I consider Sajin's vote scummy because it really looks to me like he was using the excuse that we must lynch someone, even if we think they are town. I didn't really see that until I reread him in isolation. My primary suspicions of him are still based on his wild speculations, lies, and misrepresentations.

[Kreriov]

@Sajin - Again with the lies. Your wild speculation is that I am Kemp. Your now FIRST lie is that I said I was neutral. I did not. YOU mentioned it first and then when I responed, you tried to misrepresent my reply as me admiting I was neutral. You have not hit a sore spot You have acted as scum and I will continue to pound in that point until you admit to it or get lynched. Preferably and probably both.

[Kreriov]

@Kise - As I have stated multiple times, I do not have a name.

[Kreriov]

@Knight - Why are you so sure you will be night killed by the scum? And if so, I am not so sure this is a problem. We have two millers whom the scum will not want to confirm. ZazieR who has some sort of powers. Ortolan is the doc, even if insane. And me who is immune to certain actions. If the scum target you, that seems like a good thing for the town. Or, to paraphrase ZazieR, it sure seems like you are more interested in getting lynched than helping the town.

[Kreriov]

Well, that was sure out of nowhere. Kise must be bored.

And no Kise, i will not go into more details on my abilities. That offer was for Sajin, not you.

[Kreriov]

@ZazieR - Starbuck voted for Millar13 after you in case your vote did not go through or something. I even made a small joke about counting 8 on Millar13's lynch

[Kreriov]

@Kise - Um, are you kidding me? I have probably revealed more about my role and character than anyone else. I am not here to satisfy your curiosity. Your continued hinting and implying and general LACK of information sharing while expecting others to divulge everything about themselves is really getting old and really is suspicious. Despite my repeated statements that I have no clue about what you are hinting or implying or whatever, you continue to say things like it will be our secret or things to ZazieR along the lines of did you target a certain someone. I did not ask it at the time, but again, your desire to gather info while not sharing anything compels me to ask, do you think ZazieR targeted me? And if she did not target me, who do you think she targeted? Do you think or have reason to believe she can even target anyone and why do you think this if so? You act like you are in a position to demand info or even that you deserve it. You are not and do not. To say that I am 'suddenly' unwilling to share info is ludicrous. Again, I have shared my role, my character, the fact that I have no name, and even some of the abilities those give me. I have pretty much nothing else to share and the little I do I think will benefit the scum more than town, so its not happening unless I am forced to do it, so either start divulging info YOU have or shut up.

[Kreriov]

@ZazieR - I have no killing abilities. I am not sure what Kise has been talking about and it is possible the mod has made a mistake and Kise is telling the truth. As soon as I saw Kise's last post, I sent a pm in and am waiting for a complete response. I atually thought you had targeted me, saving me from a scum kill and that is how you lost your post restriction. The whole semi-random part of my Nexus role has not been completely explained, I am sure deliberately. All I get from it is that I am beneficial to town aligned players and detrimental to scum, but nothing about any possibility of killing anyone.

And yes, I would vote zwet right now. I had seriously high hopes for this game when I signed up and even more when I received my role pm. The shoddy modding and poor execution (things like losing or incomplete role pms come to mind) have made this game very dissappointing and frustrating.

[Kreriov]

@ZazieR - Yes, I did.

I have not received a reply from Slicey or Zwet. This has gone on long enough and even though it is not ideal play to completely claim, I think this means we have caught a scum and possibly determined who Kemp may be. (I do not subscribe to the idea that Kemp is necessarily scum now, just for the record.) I have been trying to avoid completely claiming because I have only one ability that is very powerful, not multiple abilities. I am a Kai Mone though martial artist and a semi-random Nexus. I have the power of redirection. Each night I can target one person. Any actions taken against me are instead taken against the person I targeted. I have been trying to get clarification as to whether this means I actually have to go visit that person as Kise is claiming he saw me do. It does not make sense that I would have to as I am not actually doing anything to my target, I am redirecting those coming at me.

This means Kise is lying. I think Kise targeted me and got redirected to ZazieR. The kill failed and Kise either pieced together enough to realize what happened when his kill failed or he received some sort of notification that he targeted ZazieR instead of me.

Either way, my ability is now mostly useless. Scum know they cannot target me, even if they haven't figured it out from Kise's fake claim.

Unvote

Vote: Kise

[Kreriov]

EBWOP post: that should be Kai Mone THOUGHT martial artist

[Kreriov]

Well, if Zwet is Kemp then Kemp is definitely scum...

[Kreriov]

Well, this game is screwed now anyway. I do not see any way to fix it without seriously favoring one side or the other. I will check back on Monday I guess, but expect me to request a replacement if the game continues.

[Kreriov]

Yeah, well, I just do not see how it can. One side or the other is basically screwed now.

[Kreriov]

That is not the problem, ThAdmiral. The problem is Zwet goofed and it is doubtful he can fix it.

[Kreriov]

Fine lynch me, see Kise is lying, then lynch him. I no longer care.

[Kreriov]

Oh, I said something to Slicey before Kise claimed. I wanted to try and make sure that I wasn't incorrectly accusing Kise of lying given all the hints and implications Kise had been making about seeing me do something. The reply and explanation simply did not make sense. When Kise fully claimed he watched me I had to reply even though a subsequent PM to Slicey had not been answered. The most recent pm from Zwet now that he is back is less than expected and barely coherent as well. My power is redirection. Anyone who targets me is instead redirected to whomever I choose (ZazieR in this case). How in the hell does anyone watching ZazieR see me do anything? The other problem with Kise's sotry would be I have no killing ability. ZazieR's one-shot night protection has been used up but Kise says he only saw me. SOMEONE had to try and kill her since it wasn't me. Lynch me to verify my story. I will turn up as pro town. How much else would be revealed I do not know. I am supposedly a Kai-Mone thought martial artist and a semi-random Nexus. You all will have to figure it out from there. As I said, I no longer care. This game has been jacked from the start. Here is my vote. Good luck and goodbye all.

Unvote

Vote: Kise

[Kreriov]

Because that is wrong. I will fulfill the obligation I took on in signing up for this game. That it is no longer fun for me and that I am disappointed in it does not mean I will screw anyone over. Whomever the town decides to lynch now - me, Kise, someone else - if I voted for myself the result would be unfairly skewed.

[Kreriov]

Since I need to make a post today so I will not be prodded over the weekend, well, I am making this post.

[Kreriov]

I am not bothering to read most of this. I will not count this either way because the mod was jacked up. I kinda figured Kise was a townie but at that point did not care. That fact that Kise got the result he did was just plain stupid. I do nothing but sit at home and anyone comming to me is redirected elsewhere and somehow Kise sees me visit ZazieR? How? Thats bullshit. And why in the hell did Kise not see Sajin go try to kill Zazie? More bullshit. Pile on top of that a missing mod and the Skywalker thing making everyone think this might be Star Wars themed and you get at least one very dissappointed and pissed off player here.

Zwet, I will never play in another game modded by you.

[Kreriov]

Come one ZazieR. You are really stretching it. By your reasoning, Sajin didn't try to kill you, I tried to kill you and that means you should not have turned mafia. It doesn't matter. I do not think Zwet thought things through and was just scrambling trying to fix things. Something that was further complicated because he left and had to turn modding duties over to Slicey. The idea and story might have been ok, it was the execution and planning that leave a lot to be desired. MAYBE at some point once Zwet shows he can mod competently I will join one of his games. It will not be for along while however.