Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[don_johnson]

/confirm

[don_johnson]

this game is off to a quick start it seems. i have grazed a bit and realize we are skipping the rvs, so i'll be doing a read through and posting later.

[don_johnson]

Catching up post:

5. don_johnson = What merit if any do you see in how or why she claimed?

None yet. I will file the claim for later analysis. I have only been in one game with a miller claim, it came at L-1 on day 1 and it turned out to be scum fake claiming.

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?

Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.

Also, anyone know anything about this Cowboy Bebop TV show? Until I got my role PM, I assumed we were all gonna be ridin' steers and square dancin'. Yee Haw!

Hungry bounty hunters floating through space. I watch it more for the art and music than the actual storyline. I imagine this game promises plenty of flavor, though, as some of the characters in the show are unique.

Just thought of something else as well, it might actually be helpful to the town because if an investigative role did check Juls out and returned an innocent it would be a good indicator of that role's sanity.

^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.

Potentially. On a purely hypothetical level, if cop received multiple guilties in a row and wasn't sure if they were true or not it could be worthwhile to test it on someone you are somewhat sure of what the result should be. Obviously there is some risk involved depending on the sanity because one could still get a guilty result, but it might be less than the risk of a cop calling out someone they think is scum, lynching town and then being subsequently lynched themselves.

Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?

*ping*

'Seems' to match - obviously it can't be 100% accurate play by play, especially considering she was in the other game for like, six pages. Just the... easily frustrated/irritable behaviour appears to be similar.

How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?

And as far as secret's go I've only seen one mini game with an insane cop in it so I just find it unlikly from an expierence stand point. If we do have a miller I don't see a point in further complicating things by throwing in an non-sane cop. Feels like kicking a man while he's already down

You seem to think juls is a confirmed miller. I see the “if” in your statement here, but are you drawing lines between scum buddies based on the speculation that juls is telling the truth? I would like you to explain this connection of baltar/rhinox? Personally I am suspicious of baltar at this point, but rhinox seems to be getting victimized. Also, Juls seems to be coasting on the “miller” claim.

There's also a possibility that everyone in this game is a Cult Leader. That doesn't mean that it's a possibility worth discussing.
Your dissenting view - "well maybe she was planning to do this since the last game" - seems very weak compared to your apparently Amazing Meta on Juls. So why toss dirt at Juls?

Why are you defending juls? Also, why not question shadow girls “meta” argument? At this point, the case against rhinox seems very forced. Both shadow girl and vp baltar seem to be sliiping through, and there seems to be no expectations of juls.


I see vi has moved on, I haven’t found anything particularly scummy about rhinox at this point and I am stunned that everyone seems to be “okay” with letting juls claim miller and sit quietly as we all discuss it.

Juls: please share your thoughts and expectations. Do you see any way that your claim/role can benefit town?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: mod, can you fix my tags, i don't see why they wouldn't work there.

Fixed. I don't think it recognized the font. ~Jah.

[don_johnson]

^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.

No one said that Juls was confirmed as a miller. She very well may be scum trying to gambit, but I was merely suggesting one possibility for why her claiming miller early, if true, could be a good idea. She would obviously know if she was town or not and would then have to assess whether claiming would be a good idea.

what?

Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?

So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?

Seems funny for someone who is so doubtful of Juls' claim

.

bolded is the giant misrepresentation of my viewpoint on the juls claim.

Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.

cop investigates one player a night. several means "more than two". meaning cop would have three results and it would be day 4 by the time this "sanity" question would arise according to your theory. if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity? why on earth would we not be lynching players producing "guilty" results? its convoluted, but i don't see how investigating a claimed miller does anything to clear up "sanity" issues. we would need to lynch juls to confirm her role in order to be able to trust the results, just like anyone else.

[don_johnson]

How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?

Just one - where I replaced her. I have not yet been in a game with her. The meta point is very weak, obviously. I just don't believe that she would play the gambit as scum.

Why am I providing evidence for such a thing?

first off: you are not providing evidence. second, i am skeptical of meta arguments in general. you pointed to her play in a specific way and stated that it was what led you to believe her claim. i am asking you to back up your statements with data. if you can't, then perhaps you should avoid making such statements. why don't you believe that she would play the gambit as scum? i.e. she claimed miller and has all but dissappeared for day one. noone is voting her and other players are willing to use her claim to test the sanity of a cop. sounds like an awfully comfortable place for scum to be. yet you believe her claim based on "obviously weak" meta. thank you for clarifying.

[don_johnson]

way to avoid the issue.

sorry, i didn't realize that in your "hypothetical", juls was telling th truth and we somehow knew that. whatever.

perhaps i am misunderstanding the mechanics of the miller role. question to anyone: how does investigating a claimed miller speak to sanity?

i am not going to argue the semantics of the term "null tell". i analyze posts to determine peoples alignment. posts and actions in thread are either townie, scummy, or null. obviously, i would believe something that reads town, not believe something that reads scum, and "fencesit" on something that reads null.

regarding multiple vs. several:

let's try again. cop investigates one player a night. multiple means "more than one". meaning cop would have at least two results and it would be day 3 by the time this "sanity" question would arise according to your theory.

if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity? why on earth would we not be lynching players producing "guilty" results?

its convoluted, but i don't see how investigating a claimed miller does anything to clear up "sanity" issues. we would need to lynch juls to confirm her role in order to be able to trust the results, just like anyone else.

this time, try answering the bolded questions.

also, explain why i shouldn't be "fencesitting" as you call it in regards to whether or not i trust what someone says who has posted all of four times. i am not inclined to believe that a mafia forum is ripe with honesty.

[don_johnson]

vp: i see your point when you state it that way. juls really hit what i was getting at with:

I would not be the best person to check sanity on because there is no way to confirm my role to you all until death.

the way your original post was worded it seemed as though you were speaking with certainty that juls was in fact a miller. if juls is who she says she is, the only ones in this game who should be certain of that are scum, no? which brings me to shadowgirl.

Point one: I still don't get what the point in me providing evidence for her not being 'easily frustrated/irritable'. Can you explain this more clearly?

game starts with a list of names. some are scum and some are town. we don't know which is which. in theory, everyone starts in the middle: neither scum/nor town. when you move a player from the middle to either end, you should be able to explain your reasoning. we don't allow votes with little reasoning, why should we allow "townie brownies" devoid of reasoning? you seem to be working from the standpoint that you believe juls. i can accept this, but you claim that your belief is based on two points. a) meta(of which you point to one game. b) her lack of experience causing you to believe she would not try this type of scum gambit. you have admitted that the meta is weak. tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"? it just seems to me that you are trying to find any way you can to believe her claim. perhaps its because you know it to be true?

in regards to your comments: all eyes are not on her, and why would any cop waste an investigation on her?

The fact that she claimed first thing is the icing on the cake, because of the experience she had in the other game she was miller, if she recieved the role again I believe she would claim it early.

^^ this is the only part of your explanation that makes sense. why are you trying to bolster your position with more than this? i.e. saying her play is "frustrated/irritable, and that she is inexperienced.

I don't see a reason to. Do you?
*reads to You 100*
I don't see ShadowGirl's reason for letting Juls's Miller claim pass to be that scummy.

Why are you focusing on it like a magnifying glass in the sun?

Do you suspect ShadowGirl?

bolded is the lose/lose question. it is not fair to ask such a thing. i am focusing no more on this subject than other players focusing on other things. yes, i suspect anyone who speaks with certainty of the knowledge of anothers role, especially on day 1 when the player in question has a total of four posts. i don't think asking to explain herself is out of line. in fact, there is a huge discrepancy in her reasoning. do you know what it is?

This is getting tiresome. Is Cop sanity really that big a potential issue in this game? I personally prefer to assume that things AREN'T screwy until they are demonstrated to be so.

cop sanity has never been an issue for me. my issue is players speaking with certainty of the knowledge of another players role.

You lost me at "but are you drawing lines between scum buddies." I don't see where Baltar/Rhinox comes in in Pokerface's assessment, and the rest of this point seems to hinge on that...

pf made a reference to a baltar/rhinox scum pairing. i was asking for clarification.

I was totally with Don Johnson on this until VP pulled out the "outing a cop day 2." That was something I hadn't thought of, and I feel kinda dumb for thinking that a cop instantly claims as soon as one guilty is on the table. However, there still is the point that after lynching one "guilty" that comes up innocent, it's possible we have a paranoid cop rather than an insane one, that a framer was involved, and that any number of things are at play that can't be confirmed by wasting an investigation on Juls.

I think this is getting way too hypothetical at this point, and I think VP accounted for the scummy reasoning he had offered before.

what's a framer? like i have said, the sanity is not the issue for me, it was vp saying we could use juls to test a cop's sanity. the way the post was worded seemed to speak of certainty of juls being a miller. juls herself understands that she is not confirmed until death. yes, vp's post 104 seems to be consistent with the train of thought he presented earlier, so i can't accuse him of changing his story. that said:

vote: shadowgirl

you simultaneously admit to having weak meta knowledge on juls, but choose to believe her claim based on her inexperience. major contradiction.(vi, that's the answer to the question i asked you. )

[don_johnson]

Am I the only one who thinks that post of Don's is weird? He repeatedly calls on SG saying Juls was inexperienced being a cornerstone of her case, when she said it once, in support, and hasn't had time to react to Juls saying she has improved since then.

He also misses VP saying that his entire illustration was a hypothetical to illustrate why claimig early would be beneficial, which DOES presuppose Juls to be pro-town miller

.

bolded is what got my attention in the first place. i didn't miss that at all. also,who said "cornerstone"?

and this:

vote: shadowgirl you simultaneously admit to having weak meta knowledge on juls, but choose to believe her claim based on her inexperience. major contradiction.

What's so "contradictory" about it?

how can she make a judgment of relative experience a player has in the game of mafia without knowing more about said player? i.e. sg claims to have very little knowledge of juls play in order to defend herself against the "meta" argument, but somehow knows enough about juls to use her experience level to make a determination about whether or not she would run a scum gambit. either sg has knowledge of juls meta or she doesn't. she claims she doesn't, so then how does she have any clue as to juls "experience" level? it seems as though her amount of knowledge in relation to juls fluctuates. make sense?

[don_johnson]

So, you're voting Shadowgirl because she must be scum that knows Juls is town, and her stated reasons for trusting Juls are incorrect, right?

you could not be more wrong. juls actual alignment has little to do with the situation. i am voting shadow for her conflicting reasoning as to why she believes juls' claim.

Doesn't that presuppose that Juls is town also?

it would, but that's not what i have been saying.

Are you then saying that you believe Juls' claim implicitly because SG believes it, and you don't believe why SG believes it?

no, if you recall, i am fencesitting. i have no reason to believe or to disbelieve juls' claim.


i don't think you are paying attention. let me try this just for you:

juls claims miller, question is asked to all whether or not we believe her claim.

shadow says she believes the claim because juls playstyle is similar to the game in which she actually had the role of miller(meta).

when called on the meta argument, shadow states that its "obviously weak" as she is basing it on only the one single game in which she has read of juls.

to then bolster her, what now seems to be poor, reasoning for believing juls' claim, shadow adds that she thinks juls is "too inexperienced" to be running a scum gambit of fakeclaiming miller.

shadow has admitted to reading ONLY ONE GAME of juls. how on earth does she come to the conclusion that juls is "inexperienced"?

it is not what shadow believes, it is how she is explaining why she believes it. scumshadow could be believing the claim because juls is her scumpartner, or because she is trying to buddy up to a townie.

I think you're missing the point of Baltar's posts; that, in the event Juls is town, this is a reason she would claim early. Hence "hypothetical".

baltar did not state that his post was a hypoothetical at the time of said post. that was an explanation in hindsight. though it is reasonable, it does not erase the original post, which i found to be dangerously misleading. what if juls is a godfather role? then we use her to check our cops sanity and determine that we have an insane cop? even in a hypothetical, juls role isn't confirmed until death. vp's response is reasonable, but not irrefutable. My quandary here is that i only have one vote. at this point, shadow is far scummier as her posts don't even seem reasonable.

post 129 is somewhat nonsensical. shadow, are you now admitting that you have no real idea of how experienced juls actually is?

exactly what are "the implications of trying such a gambit with an experienced player list. "?

Secondly, how would believing her benifit me? (As scum - is what I'm assuming is the point you're making.)

if she is scum then you are bolstering her position, if she is town, then you are buddying and attempting to look pro town.

[don_johnson]

okay. vi you bring up a good point. though i disagree about the magnifying glass on a particular part of my argument with sg, i have certainly missed a few things. gorrad dropped a comment along similar lines in what i've been questioning both vp and sg about.

reading their posts in isolation i am not impressed.

The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information.

Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld.

However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it.

Though I must say, I have never played a miller.

these two statements seem to conflict. not much, but certainly odd. i.e. if there are no other benefits to a late miller claim, how do the negatives make it not wirth it? meh. not altogether scummy. but then:

If you claim miller after you've been investigated, not a single person will believe you. It's as good as signing your own death warrant. By claiming early, you at least have a chance of survival should a cop investigate you.

^^ this is a benefit unlike a benefit that fits a late claim of any other type of role. contradictory to the original statement.

I see a Godfather in almost every game I enter.

Of course, I enter almost exclusively themes, so take of that as you will, but still. It's one of the more common mafia roles. That and RB.

why would someone seemingly familiar with the godfather role then say this:

Ha! There we go. A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity.

As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

i think i need a little more gorrad.

[don_johnson]

again: what is a "framer"?

these two statements

seem

to conflict.

i guess i just don't understand what he's saying. that's why i didn't call it an outright conflict. now that i reread it, it does look okay.

what stands out to me is the second point(which is what i would like explained).

why would someone who sees the godfather role as one of the most frequently dispensed roles in games of mafia, make the claim that:

A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

it just seems like really bad advice, no?

[don_johnson]

don johnson is up there for his "contradiction" post. That was blatant reaching, imo.

The second half of your post is a non sequitur par excellence (where did we go from Godfathers to investigating Millers?).

one more time for the slow kids trying to sing the duet in the back.

gorrad says "godfather" is one of the more common roles in a game of mafia.

gorrad then says

A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

okay? are you ready?

why does gorrad not realize that a "claimed miller" could be a gambiting godfather? its a contradiction, not a reach. investigating a "claimed miller" proves absolutely nothing. got it? NOTHING!

vi: why are you voting gorrad? exactly what is dubious about me pointing out what i see as "contradictions"? did you not read my recent post where i explained that i wasn't comprehending gorrad's initial statement properly or did you just choose to ignore it?

vp: why do you want more gorrad? if there is nothing suspicious about his posting, why not say you need more zeenon, or juls? if there is something suspicious about gorrad's posting, and its not what i am pointing out, can you please tell us?

[don_johnson]

So, to clarify, you think juls is a godfather who claimed miller because she then thought a cop would investigate her and get an innocent, and thusly, question his or her own sanity?

bolded is the misrep. yes, i realize the whole statement is bolded. i never said this is what i think, i just don't understand why people seem to place this out of the realm of possibility. a godfather with a believable "miller" claim gets a veritable free ride to endgame, and helps to throw suspicion on the sanity of any cop who chooses to investigate. is it a convolueted possibility? yes. but we're not playing hopskotch.

[don_johnson]

You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim

, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role.

bolded is the misrep. why are people having so much trouble understanding me?

i haven't said anything of the sort.

For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty".

^^ not true. it could be a town gambit. the fact is, the possibilities exist for there to be other results. the fact that people are believing the claim and suggesting we use the miller as a "sanity" gauge for a cop is what i have issues with. you agree with me that using the miller in this way is a bad idea, yet you call me dubious for arguing this point with others. what gives?

[don_johnson]

juls: i am confused. you said earlier that there is more to your role and that it is why you don't want to flavor claim(which i understand), no?

then why are you saying this:

I am an excellent target for a compulsive vig with nothing else to go on. (And I highly encourage it on N1 if you aren't 80% sure you are hitting scum)

if you are town and there is more to your role, how can it be good for a town pr to get vigged? please clarify this stance. post 190 is extremely wifomic in that regard. i find the statements contained there-in to be very anti-town.

[don_johnson]

@D_J-Beyond ShadowGirl, who would be your second choice for a lynch today and why?

gorrad, vp, vi, juls(yeah, i said it)... take your pick. its day one.

i won't bother bolding the misreps, but someone said i was "piggybacking rhinox' case on gorrad. if i was, vi wouldn't have been upset with me. if anyone was "piggybacking" rhinox' case it was vi. my reasoning for questioning gorrad was because of his "plan to test the cops sanity" and how it conflicted with the "common" existence of the godfather role.

also, it seems as though everyone is focusing on the wrong part of my post concerning gorrad. i pointed out that the first "contradiction" i mentioned wasn't even likely a contradiction and that it wasn't much, but my detractors seem to be focusing on that as though i was trying to push something based off of it. case in point: my vote is still on shadowgirl. gorrad, juls, and sg all have yet to answer my inquiries.

but yeah. its day one. so i'm okay lynching any one of quite a few of you.

[don_johnson]

you seem to misrep my posts. it could be misunderstanding, but you seem to be starting with the idea that i am scum and trying to flesh out a case with every post i make. i think i have expressed some valid analysis in regards to the juls claim and players responses, but you seem to ignore them.

maybe we just disagree. maybe its that you just don't know me. i am willing to work with you, but i certainly have no reason to trust you at this point, and if i can't get the lynches i want first then i would certainly vote for someone like you.

[don_johnson]

I agree with Juls asking for the vig to kill her if he's not 80% sure on someone else. That seems like a pro-town move to me.

just to clarify. it is a pro town move provided that "miller" is the extent of juls' role. however, juls alluded to the fact that there was more to her role. that is why i question the motive. if there is more to her role then she should not be encouraging a night 1 vig.

[don_johnson]

I don't get why you'd be content with lynching so many? I don't think that many players can be scum and scum are the only people you should want to lynch. Settling for just about an lynch feels pretty scumish.

how many day 1 lynches successfully end in a scum lynch? do you prefer a no lynch if you don't get the lynch of your choice?

[don_johnson]

Still not quite sure of your answer since you answered my question with a question. Think you could elaborate?

If say your number one suspect wasn't going to be lynched would you just auto agree with whatever else was on the table

?

no. i would go to number two, and so forth. how exactly would you like me to elaborate? your question was stupid. i believe i mentioned four names. you call it "many". it is four i am most suspicious of, suspicion being entirely relative.

[don_johnson]

DJ: 162 is scummy as sin. First off, I see no way how the first two quoted sections contradict each other. Secondly, why in the nine rings would any smart godfather claim miller?

Not only do godfathers WANT to be investigated to be 'cleared', should, for some human factor reason, they be investigated by a cop with confirmed sanity, they're confirmed scum!

This looks like lazy scum trying to hop on Rhinox's wagon. Vote: don_johnson.

first, i have explained the "contradictions". attacking the admittedly weaker side of my argument is strawmanning. secondly, the bolded statement is a blanketing opinion being presented as fact. a godfather investigated by a "paranoid" cop gets a guilty result, no? my issue with your statement is that it is tremendously bad advice. investigating a claimed miller in no way confirms a cops sanity. what i like best is the pre-emptive omgus. nice touch. is this all of your "content"?

[don_johnson]

^^^^^^^^ wonderful opinions. they are not facts. paranoid cops die all the time not knowing their sanity. it is reasonable for you to claim you weren't giving advice. notice how i didn't vote you when i posted what i did. still:

how does a cop investigating a "claimed" miller work towards sanity? hint: it doesn't.

do you really want to continue this discussion? ten pages in and all you have is scumdj based on a disagreement of your "theory" posts?

[don_johnson]

i can't give you the mathematical odds of juls being a godfather. i am saying that the options a mod has in this game to mess with us makes "investigate the miller to determine your sanity" a really assanine statement/idea/whatever. i think it is a useless addittion to an already difficult conversation. the only way a miller can help town is by scumhunting. suggesting otherwise is fallacious. scum generally push fallacies, therefore i am suspicious of those pushing the idea.

[don_johnson]

I, as well, am only in favour of a flavour claim (unless Juls, you think it's detrimental to town - then no.)

^^ fluff. if you're going to be v/la just say so, don't toss out a completely meaningless statement to feign interest in what's going on. kthxbye.

[don_johnson]

How about an opinion yourself don instead of just walking in and spitting in someone's face then walking out.

wow. lynching the miller sounds like a good idea.

i've been posting opinions and i am just pointing out that sg has not responded to my argument at all and is now launching an entirely meaningless opinion into the midst of a pretty important conversation imo. no need to paint me as some barbarian. spitting on someone is one of the most grotesque and uncouth things one can do to another and i don't appreciate the personal slant. i think a full juls role claim with flavor is a good idea. i don't see how it helps scum, and if you are town it can help us better understand your position.

[don_johnson]

just here to help.

[don_johnson]

Let's say you think X is scum and you don't have much of a read on Y. Y is currently at L-1 and the day deadline is very far away. What would you do?

my first reaction would be to ask someone to unvote and get a claim. assuming i have presented my best case on X, i would read the case on Y to determine what action should be taken further.

[don_johnson]

Regardless of the chances, unless 0% end in scum lynches (which obviously isn't the case), we should be making an effort.

Hoping for the lynch of whoever has your eye at the moment in a grand storm of divine condescension

strikes me not only as a little silly, but yeah, scummy.

bolded is the misrep.

how is questioning those i find suspicious and showing willingness to lynch those i find suspicious "not making an effort"?

[don_johnson]

In other words, we're going to mislynch anyways, so whateva

.

bolded is the misrep.

unvote, vote charlatan

calling me out for not being decisive and then giving explanations of how it could be both scummy and townie is quite hypocritical.

[don_johnson]

no change of heart. i was asked who would be my

second

choice for lynch today past sg. also, the "argument" being attributed to me is not one i have

ever

made. i never said i would be content with lynching anyone, or lynching randomly, and i never said that day 1 doesn't matter.

those who have played with towndj know that he has been prone to tunnel vision and pushing lynches. those who know town dj should also be aware that he has never, in fact, successfully lynched scum. towndj is often lynched in lylo, or the day before, and generally in retribution for pushing wagons on townies. to expect that towndj would simply choose not to evolve in order to better hunt scum is rather narrow minded. i am open to lynching more than my top choice for scum. is it odd that i am attempting to trust others opinions and abilities? how is that "dubious"? would you prefer "tunnel-vision" dj?

also, i am pointing out the misreps because in my experience, misreps and argument twisting are the most accurate scum tells. having been mislynched by scum several times i feel i have a pretty good grasp on the subject. am i being cautious? of course. reckless towndj is a detriment and has proven so in every game he's played. juls, the only reason we pulled out a town victory in hard nights was because of your play in lylo and the fact that we actually had a roleblocking serial killer in our midst.

Maybe I'm just really on edge about "I misunderstood/misread my role" excuses because I just lost a game where scum used that excuse to their advantage. Mini 737, and it was actually don who "misread" his role PM...

good times.

that's all i have time for now, but i will try to read through and post some opinions. i am happy where my vote is for now. charlatan claims he is voicing opinion, however, he has clearly been pushing the fallacious, afore mentioned "argument" that he has himself invented and is attributing to me.

[don_johnson]

how am i "trying to self-meta"? i was asked a question about my meta, and more specifically i was asked to explain why towndj in one game is different from towndj in another. i don't think i brought the meta argument up in any way. don_johnson generally frowns on meta arguments unless they are substantial. personally, it seems that gorrad is the one "trying to self-meta." but what do i know...

[don_johnson]

echo echo echo echo...

char: you use your uncertainty as a defense, but say my uncertainty makes me scummy. do

you

not see the problem with that?

[don_johnson]

The people wagoning me right now are right to wagon me.

i disagree. the wagon seems scum driven. particularly charlatan who (tell me if i'm misinterpreting here) seems to have voted you for lack of participation but is now keeping his vote on you because he is "not happy" with your participation. "camping" a vote is scummy without solid reasoning. if we are going to lynch a "non-contributor" i would say that xtoxm is easily the scummiest of the bunch due to shadowgirls ealrier play. because of this i see no reason to move my vote, and i am not seeing why people are seeing charlatan to be "scumhunting". all of his suspicions are hypocritical. i.e. indecisiveness and lack of strong opinions. saying i am suspicious for being willing to lynch from a pool of players i find suspicious and then attempting to lynch "lurkers" is also hypocritical.

Believe that's everyone. So, i'd be happy with a lynch of any of those last 4 at this point. I wouldn't be against a lynch of either of my nuetral reads either.

i'll let charlatan handle this one.

The way he is playing smacks of

scummy non-participation

, and yet you think I'm a better candidate for this exact reason.

i don't like the bolded term. townies have reasons to avoid the spotlight. though non-contributors can be a detriment to town, day 1 should certainly focus on more active players. lynching scum lurkers is always nice, but town lurkers leave highly uninterpretable wagons and can be a boon for scum. as i said, as far as the "non-contributors" go i would rather lynch xtoxm due to sg's earlier play. vp: would you characterize a zeenon lynch as a "policy" lynch, or is there something else you see that makes you lean scum on them?

I have considered replacement but I am trying to stick it out and make sense of it all.

But I can also rationalize FL as being disinterested/busy and making a half-ass effort. Town do that too you know.

juls: if you are going to half ass it then replace out. making statements like the above are only going to put you higher on my lynch list. also, i am not sure what you are interpreting as "anger", but when i post i am actually devoid of much emotion. if anything, i have probably tried to express "frustration" in some of my earlier posts. not sure what your interest is in this matter and i thought i already explained my playstyle.

zeenon: why are you not reading my posts? if you answer this, please explain why you earlier said that you weren't reading my posts.

[don_johnson]

though I will say IMHO the only way to properly judge a wagon is in hindsight.

true. my point, however, is that i have yet to witness a day 1 lurker wagon(scum or town) that worked out in town's favor in the long run. therefore, scum have every reason to jump a lurker wagon as town. i.e. very little reason: "crap logic" if you will. this makes the analysis of said wagon virtually useless as all of the votes look "scummy" in hindsight regardless of alignment flip. make sense?

[don_johnson]

I would submit to you that lynching based on who is on a wagon on D1 is equally as unproductive as lynching lurkers.

is someone lynching based on "who is on a wagon"?

[don_johnson]

What about Xtoxm's play has corraborated your suspicions on SG? He hasn't done much one way or another right now, imo.

nothing.

as far as the "non-contributors" go i would rather lynch xtoxm

due to sg's earlier play

.

[don_johnson]

is someone lynching based on "who is on a wagon"?

You've been advocating it for at least 10 posts.

i disagree. are you just looking for an argument? my suspicions rest on other players "crap logic" behind their votes.

[don_johnson]

not denying anything. i don't really understand your argument here.

[don_johnson]

juls. juls juls juls.

how does lynching a claimed mason on day1 go again? there is a better way to confirm them.(hint: zeenon mentioned it)

sorry, but your "this game is confusing" bit isn't working. i've seen this song and dance before. not sure if its part of your "presenting meta" or not, but it is unhelpful. i am going to rehash something:

if there is more to your role than just "miller", then why did you earlier offer yourself as a night 1 vig target?

[don_johnson]

unvote

okay, charlatan, your last few posts make more sense, and i think that earlier i had missed your suspicions on FL. i reread your post 14 and it does lay out your suspicions rather succinctly.

Could you be any more wishy washy? I also don't follow the logic here that leads to you believing Juls... when you're UNK town, asking a town vig to nk you seems anti-town. Trying to draw a scum nk, on the other hand, would be pro-town.

QFT ^^^ i find juls less believable because her actions have been anti-town. not to say i am ready to disbelieve her, but your logic in this matter seems fuzzy.

Oh, and for the record -- I think Juls asking to be vigged was a bad call if the details of her claim are legit, and I think the claim is a bit safe, but "Town Romani" is believable. The gypsy theme isn't even something that's visited heavily in the series, but Faye has a scene popular among fans in which she describes herself as a Romani and claims that they're all misunderstood, "wandering the stars in search of love" or some such thing. This makes me lean towards Juls being truthful, though I wouldn't handle it the way she did.

i have almost the entire series on my dvr. any idea which session "romani" is from? also, juls did say she watched this anime, so fake claiming may not be as difficult as some people think.

my main problem with drawing the vig kill is that i don't feel it could have gone anywhere good for town on day 2. if i were vig and my target didn't die i would be pushing there lynch all the way to the gallows. investigating as scum weeds out "bullet proof" townie and claiming commuter after the fact is just as poor a choice as claiming miller after an investigation. that aside, i am on the fence with "romani".

personally, in my previous games day1 claimed masons are usually confirmed through nk's, so i don't know if we should be using an investigation just yet. i am willing to lynch from gorrad, hohum, or juls at this point.

does someone want to lay out the case on pokerface?

[don_johnson]

And we're not lynching PF, he's town.

[don_johnson]

scummy.

explain your take on pf.

[don_johnson]

i have seen this from juls before. what makes me wonder is why this attitude is repetitive. claiming "frustration" seems to be a possible attempt at "self-meta". i am definitely leaning more towards disbelieving this claim.

vi: why do you require "flavor" from the claimed masons if you are not overly suspicious of them?

[don_johnson]

vi: why do you require "flavor" from the claimed masons if you are not overly suspicious of them?

Future reference. The flavor secrecy from earlier doesn't really apply any more.

ok. so give us your flavor.

[don_johnson]

Rhinox, if we decided town Juls should be vigged, why would hypotown Juls not give us a day she's killable? If she didn't, wouldn't that be a pretty serious scumtell? I don't see how a lynch is the only road (or even the best one). Why would you have to "guess odd nights" at all? It would be her job to give us that info.

juls didn't give us a night she

could

be vigged. she asked to be vigged night 1, and

now

says she is unkillable on night 1.

This is non-sensical. (Is that a word?) Lynching a hypotown Juls became a bad play for them the moment she claimed miller.

Even when she said there was more to her role, it wouldn't have been worth it, as the fact that she volunteered to be vigged indicated that, in her mind, the extra aspects of her role weren't so important to the town

.

why withold the information? she volunteered to be vigged on a night when she supposedly can't be killed.

I think there's a half decent shot that one of them wouldn't investigate as town, anyways.

and why is that?

You win an imaginary brownie if you figure out what the difference is between asking for flavor from someone who hasn't claimed and asking for flavor from someone who HAS claimed.

my bad. i should have used [/sarcasm] tags for that one. here's the deal: why did you ask claimed mason's for flavor?

you weren't voting them, you weren't considering lynching them, in fact, you seemed okay with the claim(correct me if i'm wrong.) why ask for flavor?

people didn't want juls to flavor claim for reasons stated in thread. i supposedly "pushed" her into revealing the commuter bit. why? because i thought(and think) she was(is) full of shit. coupled with her evident self-meta attempt and "poor me, i'm so confused" bullshit my disbelief is only growing.

why did you ask claimed masons for flavor? there was no reason, and now, you have attempted to deflect the question.

i don't care who you are, how long you've been playing, or whether or not you're male or female. i call bullshit when i see it.

you wnated pf to "flavor claim or die" when they were your top suspect(at L-4) then turned around and attacked zeenon for showing interest in the case, then you didn't think juls should flavor claim, defended her even though you thought she was acting scummy, then turn and ask for flavor names from the claimed masons with zero follow-up or explanation while voting... rhinox?

unvote, vote: vi

you'll be glad to know: i ain't feelin' ya.

[don_johnson]

Talk about misrepping?
1) I did not self meta. I said I was competitive and

I got frustrated in THIS game.

I said people who have played with me should know I have a temper. That's not self meta. That is saying I have a temper. Me, girl behind the curtain. Not me, mafia player. I have a temper in mish mash too (ask Pokerface)...must be scum there too.

you have done this in

other

games as well. repetitive behavior is what i am referring to when i talk about self meta. your "i'm thinking of replacing out" is familiar. it makes me think it is part of your meta that you are trying to keep up, not necessarily a scum tell as townies do this to, but coupled with the backwards claim and the fact that you say you are "bulletproof" and that you investigate as scum doesn't make me feel very comfortable. at this point, vi's "blind faith" could be scum buddying to town or scum protecting scum. either way, i find it's defense of you, coupled with its somewhat hypocritical "flavor" fishing to be scummy.

All right, responding to your accusation in one shot.
*Named characters are most likely scum in this game. I hold to this.
*PokerFace implied he had a name. Thus, scum. Thus, a claim would have solved this.
*"The commuter bit" is not a flavor claim.

I didn't want Juls to claim because I believed her

and didn't want to show what a falseclaim may look like to the scum.
*She claimed anyway. Show's over; the secret's not really there any more.

I basically asked the Masons to flavor claim offhand because I didn't think there was much of a point in keeping secrets at this point.

*Even if you don't buy the above, I have to express incredulity that you think that this mistake is worth voting me over considering everything else people have done.

still not feelin' ya. did you or did you not

believe

the mason claim? if you believed them, what purpose does the flavor serve?

Formal cases are overrated; all you have to do is look at my posts up to this point (did you really think I was making casual conversation with these giant pointy quote walls?). Rhinox is hardly cleared and is probably also scum; I'm simply going with whichever of the two of you is more likely to be lynched.

again, where does getting the masons to reveal flavor fit into any of this?

[don_johnson]

vi: why do you require "flavor" from the claimed masons if you are not overly suspicious of them?

Future reference. The flavor secrecy from earlier doesn't really apply any more

.

ok. so give us your flavor.

You win an imaginary brownie if you figure out what the difference is between asking for flavor from someone who hasn't claimed and asking for flavor from someone who HAS claimed.

my bad. i should have used [/sarcasm] tags for that one. here's the deal: why did you ask claimed mason's for flavor?

Something is telling me I shouldn't bye this. What kind of reaction did you originally expect from Vi as a result of the phrase "ok. so give us your flavor". I don't think that suggestion alone would lead him to discuss why he wanted their flavor.

why are you glossing over the obvious issue here? my "sarcasm" was in response to vi's deflection. now vi states that they believed both the miller claim and the mason claim but only needed flavor from the masons? there is inconsistency of play. now vi is threatening me if i pursue the issue. so please, answer the question.

If you've changed your mind on our claim then I can stop attacking you, cause I do think there's a good chance you're town.

^^ this.

PF is town.

^^ this.

There were 3 elders or really old guys leading the

Red Dragon Syndicate

in the series so I am guessing the elder masons here are the white tiger equivalent.

^^ and this are unsettling. why are you content to simply switch the name of the syndicate? do you think we are possibly looking at rival factions?

suddenly, lynching a mason doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[don_johnson]

i was thinking two teams of three: jet, faye, spike vs. three red dragon elders. could be one team of three, one of two, could be two teams of two. i am suspicious of the pf/mason interaction and also the vi/mason interaction. i would like pf to answer my questions.

[don_johnson]

i don't recall vi being "originally uncertain of the masons." that's my point. if i am wrong on this please let me know.

whether or not the white tiger exists should be confirmable by someone with knowledge of the anime. there are four players who are "possible scum", do the rules state there are no other possibilities?

Only

way there could be 2 groups would be if the 4 main characters were split into 2 groups.

i have to disagree until i research further. thanks.

[don_johnson]

Starting flavor and rules say crime syndicate is town and discusses Jet, Spike, Faye, Ed as possible scum.

^^ can't find this in thread.

flavor says "crew of the bebop". the crew is highly flexible during the series(starts out with just jet and spike). the flavor doesn't "name" any of the possible scum. please explain.

[don_johnson]

EBWOP

"The threat to the town in this game is called scum; bounty hunters; the crew of the Bebop."

That tells me that the threat would be the bebop crew.

The purple flavor tells me who of the bebop is possible. I suppose we could be missing one of the 4 at this point or they may all be in the game.

Rules = True and gaurantee
Flavor = Possible for assumption stand point

okay.

[don_johnson]

The flavor speculation between PokerFace and d_j is really sketchy IMO.

how so? i find this a dubious statement coming from someone who asked for the masons flavor.

[don_johnson]

Alright I looked. Back vi didn't seem to suspect xtoxm in this post where he asked for the flavor. He did show some supicions on zeenon though unrelated to the claim. So I suppose that is a bit off. Now can you answer my question without giving a question? What response did you expect from Vi when you asked for flavor? I didn't think you were being sarcastic

i was being sarcastic. i was trying to make a point. i.e. vi's defense of her question was that we need'nt apply secrecy to players role flavors. if she truly believes that then why not tell us her flavor? further, why not a mass flavor claim?

i didn't really "expect" anything. what i hoped for was clarification.

what i got was deflection.

her question of the mason's flavor was an aside to her entire post. it was "non-sequitur" i think(not sure if i am using the term right). if she wasn't disbelieving the claim, why ask for the flavor? now she is trying to use our speculation on the flavor that

she asked for

as evidence needing to be "looked into later". i find her recent play entirely scummy and am happy with my vote.

to all: please stop with the giant wall'o texts. i have stopped reading them.

mod: i support a deadline extension if we don't already have one.

[don_johnson]

mod: current vote count please.

if noone sees vi's activity as lynch worthy i will be moving my vote. i think gorrad or juls are good lynches for today, however, i will jump the largest wagon closer to deadline. my activity will be down as i am getting adjusted to a new work schedule this week(so long third shift!) but i will make a point to check in.

I would support a Rhinox lynch. Behind him I think hohum leads for non-contribution and then me. I have my doubts about PF but my opinion on him waivers back and forth. This bothers me because I have read somewhere that he is really good at appearing town as scum.

these statements have been juls sop all day. the self deprecation just rings anti-town, and it has been a consistent force in her posts. putting yourself third on your own lynch list makes no sense. we are bound to play to our win conditions, and lynching yourself on day1 if you are town is not a good idea. thanks for letting us know when we can vig you, too bad you have made it so we can't trust you. if you are town, please try harder as we close to deadline. i think its safe to say that most of the players(if not all) in this game are "good" at appearing town as scum, so your last sentence seems extraneous. seems like its just there to distance.

re gorrad: i don't understand how anyone with half a brain could have "forgotten" the miller claim. it has been center stage for a majority of the day. admittedly active lurking is anti-town.

re rhinox: i find it dubious that juls case against him is based on meta. rhinox' play is similar to the few games i have shared with him. he was town in all of them. i'm not going to clear him on meta, but i'm certainly not going to condemn him. this would be last resort lynch for me.

re zilla: i haven't been paying attention to much of the suspicion around her. her playstyle "feels" scummy, though, so in all honesty i have a null read on her, but due to the suspicion around her and her playstyle, hers is a wagon i am more then willing to jump if vi, gorrad, or juls does not happen.

re claimed masons: ridiculous to lynch either on day 1. i will not discount "rival" factions until there is evidence, but i would much rather clear them through investigation than through lynching.

re hohum: he has dissappeared. certainly came off as scummiest out of the tiff with the "masons" and has since gone to lurk. a wagon i will jump.

re pf: i don't see the case at this time. his willingness to discuss flavor and speculate i find quite pro-town.

re vp baltar: willing to lynch based on his play and my suspicions way back.

anyhow, i want vi lynched first and foremost.

[don_johnson]

vi:

sorry, charlatan has dropped off the radar. however, i will lynch him if necessary.

nice preemptive omgus.

so, how exactly am i tunneling as compared to what just about everyone else is doing? we all have suspects, just becuase you are mine doesn't mean i am tunneling.

let's see, i am willing to lynch 7/12, with about three at the top of my list. so come deadline, are you not going to vote for someone to secure a lynch, or would you rather no lynch? also, 7/12 is a MIGHTY BIG TUNNEL!

I do not presently endorse a Gorrad wagon. My meta on him is what you would call "highly unflattering", and the lynch seems... too easy.

whats so easy about it?

[don_johnson]

post 683 is rude and childish. i will not respond.

juls: i answered your question way back. i have no idea where you are getting the idea that i am being "hostile" in this game. i feel i have been pretty levelheaded. where exactly are you reading hostility?

He's definitely focused on Vi and I'm not sure that case is there right now, but when you say you'll vote for Person X if the votes are there or if "it's necessary", what you're really doing is ceding your votes to the majority and absolving yourself of the need to stick to your guns.

so i should keep my vote on vi right through the deadline? i am not following the case against me. it seems that no matter what i do, both vi and charlatan think me scum. tunnel vision is scummy, when i post suspicions of others i am scummy, now if i move my vote near deadline i am scummy. sounds like a manufactured no win situation for old dj. whatever.

unvote, vote juls

how many times are you going to ask me why i'm hostile when i have already addressed the issue? you have already claimed. you have told us that you investigate as scum, lied to us about being unk while asking to be vigged on a night that you are supposedly unk, you consider yourself among the three best lynches for town on day 1. you are my deadline vote. i think your name is faye valentine. if you are town, you are the least damaging deadline lynch.

[don_johnson]

post 683 is rude and childish. i will not respond.

And you would know. Still, I wish

I

could get around people attacking me by simply plugging my ears.

how would i know? are we reading the same game? why do you continue to project personality traits onto me? you sound like juls. i am not plugging my ears. your post was misrep and personal opinion with no base in fact.

d_j 47 wrote:
(grilling PokerFace for "defending" Vi)

(agreement with Xtoxm that Juls would be Town if she would stop attacking the Masons' claims)

(agreement with Xtoxm that PokerFace is Town)

(finding PokerFace's setup speculation "unsettling")

(offer to lynch a Mason)

bolded are the misinterpretations. the fact that xtoxm suggested he would stop attacking someone based solely on their belief or disbelief of his claim and his rather certain claim that pf was town were among the REASONS i suggest that lynching the mason doesn't sound like a bad idea.

it also didn't necessarily have to be attributed to pf. what i found unsettling is the existence of "elders" in the red dragon syndicate. i.e. hence my sole suspicion of the masons being that they may be a rival faction. however, through the ensuing conversation i determined this was not something that should be speculated on without more evidence to support it, hence i believe the mason claim.

(still questioning a single point on Vi)

(flavor question, odd since you claim to have the series on DVD)

(setup speculation)

questioning whether or not you believed the mason claim was/is a key point in the case of your "flavor" question.
i claimed DVR, not DVD. i have sessions 1-2, and like 15-25. i have fallen asleep through most of them.

what is scummy about putting pressure on vi?

(justification for not talking about people other than Vi)

(support for another deadline extension when you just got done saying you're not reading the posts at this point)

not reading the wall-o-text war. not stopped reading the posts. just not the quote walls. again, what is scummy here?

case in point: all your post was is a spewing of bullshit meant to make me look suspicious, when in fact, nothing i am doing at this point is anti-town. seriously, between you and charlatan i really don't understand how you can say you are scumhunting when you are simply saying that certain people are suspicious NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO. that's not how it works.

Wrong. I put myself third because every other person has given me a sense of towniness at one time or another. Therefore, I would rather me get lynched than mislynch someone who does NOT have a scummy role by nature. So I am saying if the lynches I mention don't gain traction I will gladly fall on my sword. Does it make more sense now?

no.

post 704 contains oodles of wisdom. wtf.

I'm not thrilled with the hohum lynch tbqh. I'm not adamantly against it, but I'm not really convinced it'll hit scum.

personally, i would not be thrilled with a hohum lynch either, but more so because lynching an absentee has potential to be extremely damning for town. i.e. missing players don't claim. in HackPoetry i watched and laughed as town lynched an absent tracker at deadline. it turned the tide and set up a scum win.

^^^ omg dj is tunneling!

what lynch are you

convinced

will hit scum?

Well, dj of course, i mean, just look at his posts, they're well... ya know... scummy, right?

who needs evidence.

one more time before deadline:

unvote, vote: vi

"All Aboard!"

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: juls

sorry, but i am going to stick with my deadline lynch and that's you. the fake claiming masons are a null read at this point because it seems the most reasonable explanation now is that they are simply jackasses.

this is a debacle. xtoxm: please explain your actions.

zeenon: have fun on your other site. thanks for nothing.

town: please lynch juls. i think it makes the most sense considering the utter ridiculousness of the last two pages. i reiterate: she has claimed, investigates as scum, is semi unk(according to her), and has been dishonest with the extent of her role. she may very well be faye valentine.

vi: your last post was more of the same. you provide evidence you say shows me to be scummy, but when i refute the evidence you say it is suddenly irrelevant. go suck an egg.

lets get this together.

[don_johnson]

@don: Do you think I am scum with a safe claim provided by the mod? If you recall, I attacked PF because he was focused on "character names" instead of "role names". Now you think I am Faye Valentine. Please give me some quotes where I lied too because I did not. I was not completely forth coming in the beginning but I did not lie.

first off. i apologize if i have offended you. it is never my attention(at least with you). i enjoy playing this game and i think you are fun. that said, girls aren't the only ones who get their feelings hurt. telling me you don't want to play with me again makes me feel terrible. i was not referring to your play as "ridiculous". i was referring to the zeenon/xtoxm debacle just 24 hours before deadline. i chose you as my deadline lynch for the reasons i stated: you have already claimed. you have been dishonest about your role ability(no, you did not lie, i apologize for the attack. i was referring to the withholding of information.) your role is "romani", which is what faye valentine is according to pf. i think you are fakeclaiming. it is nothing personal. if you are town then you are quite possibly the least damaging lynch(i.e. you have admitted this yourself by placing yourself third on your own lynch list). so please, understand i am just trying to win.

@Vi: Why are you being so tolerant of my "poor play". Vi in WATR was on me like white on rice. I sense a bit of buddying here.

if you are town, then vote vi with me. we have time to pile votes on and lynch her/him/it. i like vi too and i don't understand the animosity from their direction, but i have been pointing out their inconsistncies all day and everyone has been writing me off. lynching hohum as an absentee is a potentially horrible lynch. lynching out of the mason group doesn't make sense.

unvote, vote vi

I could support a wagon on Vi too, I don't like his recent actions at all.

we can make a run at it now.

[don_johnson]

WTF d_j...

How is a deadline lynch on an inactive any worse or potentially more dangerous than running up a wagon on an active player less than 2 hours before deadline...

I've come to the conclusion... there are just too many scummy people in this game...

absentees can't claim. dochohum goes to the gallows with a whimper. this is part of my reasoning behind the juls lynch. if she is town, she is the least damaging mislynch.

i think vi is scum. zeenon is more than likely town. there is no majority needed for deadline lynch, so him dropping his bomb doesn't accomplish much for scum. i.e. if majority was neeeded, the added confusion would have been a boon for scum, as it stands the lynch is already in dissaray, but there is no danger of a no lynch.

[don_johnson]

of course you would.

[don_johnson]

rhinox: noone wants the juls wagon. i would rather lynch someone who can defend themself and who i think is scummy and who i have thought is scummy for quite some time. again, its a no win situation for dj.

People should NOT be let off because they aren't here to claim.

its day 1. there are others i would rather lynch. post 835 is quite interesting, however.

Don John, why not vig Juls?

a) i am not vig.

b) she has been dishonest about the situation. there is no guarantee she can be vigged.

[don_johnson]

rhinox: i don't see a contradiction. i have more than one reason for the juls lynch. noone wants it, so what? i have been called out for tunneling, wanting to lynch from too large a pool of players, not sticking to my guns, sticking to my guns, and now what? wanting to push the lynch to who i find MOST SCUMMIEST? i find it intersting you call me on the AtE and yet both vi and juls have pulled the emotion card against me(i don't want to play with him anymore) you completely ignored it. wtf.

Let me ask you: Do you not find Hohum scummy, or are you just against his lynch because he's not here to defend himself?

i find hohum a null read. i am against his lynch becuase others are scummy and because he is not here to defend himself. have you played with hohum before?

why do you choose to ignore vi's blatant scumminess? she is parroting and patronizing at this point.

[don_johnson]

Speaking of people who aren't around to defend themselves, ZEEnon took off, and I don't see Don John protesting that lynch.

really?

[don_johnson]

who do you think is scum?

[don_johnson]

why do you choose to ignore vi's blatant scumminess? she is parroting and patronizing at this point.

Patronizing, definitely. Parroting? How so?

post 858. let's not argue the semantics of "parroting".

My god, ZEE, you could scumhunt with that. You put together a list, make it public, and see who claims to get your role, and everyone above that is non-town aligned.

and you are going to trust zeenon? town or scum, his information is going to be unreliable. but whatever.

[don_johnson]

of course he is.

[don_johnson]

like the lazy fakeclaiming lurkers?

[don_johnson]

Juls, when I flip town you

have

to trust me.

why is that?

[don_johnson]

I'm about ready to just vote Don John.

of course you are.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote zeenon

if you have a transferable power, i am happy to take it. not sure why its odd that i don't trust you.

[don_johnson]

Xtoxm, why are we lynching hohum anyways?
I got a town read of him..
I'd rather lynch someone like don_johnson or something ...

If there's support for it, I'll lynch Don Johnson.

of course you would. hi, pleased to meet you, i'm don_johnson.

unvote

i don't like this at all. again, its a no win situation for dj.

vote: zeenon

if there was an alternative to hohum or you, i'd take it.

[don_johnson]

I'm a little confusing, but okay.

fixed for accuracy.

[don_johnson]

don, you do realize that you unvoted,
just to re-vote me again right?

yes. posting stream of consciousness at this point.

[don_johnson]

what?

[don_johnson]

i don't understand how this voting is working. don_johnson doesn't play "shenanigans". he drives fast cars, parties with loose women, and goes deep undercover to bring justice to crooked drug dealers trying to penetrate the veil of lawfulness cast over miami.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote hohum

i am hating this. you guys suck for making me do this. i hope you're right.

[don_johnson]

what? you want me to lynch townzeenon?

[don_johnson]

sorry, just getting back to ms. caught up but a bit confused.

i did not recieve anything but a day 2 prod. no role, ability etc.

not sure what juls is getting at but i do not have a post restriction or voting ability.

without a counterclaim i see no reason to lynch charlatan at this point. zeenon was not the most trustworthy of associates, but i am not going to speculate on whether or not the whole "passing on" of the role was some type of ruse. if the speculation is between charlatan having a double vote yesterday, or someone having a null vote i think it may pay to investigate the latter. if rhinox' vote is unreadable then perhaps we should start there.

vote: rhinox

care to explain?

[don_johnson]

Another thing I have been curious about is that if Zeenon was a double voter that maybe he has a permanent vote on him (kinda like people who require one less vote to lynch)

It's possible. I considered it once in one of my many half-finished setups, but decided it was kind of pointless.

I'm not sure if hohum is a good lynch at this point.

Vote: don_johnson

(L-5)
This is the avenue I'd like to explore next.

sounds intriguing. do go on.

While it is not conclusive evidence, it is still some of the only factual data that we have and I don't think it should be ignored because there could be a number of theories. So far, the best theory indicates that one of those three affected it. If you can point to something better, I would like to hear it.

its why day2 is umltimately better than day 1: the existence of factual data. why do

you

feel this theory the "best" theory?

The most glaring thing I want others to see from my comments on don's voting patterns is that (1) he did a last second vote switch

to avoid lynching someone who was coming across as obvtown.

and (2) he did a strange unvote, vote of Zeenon in back to back posts,

stream of consciousness. it happens. please theorize some other reason if you believe there to be one.

and (3) he uses a very consistent format for all his votes in THIS game (not as consistent in others).

i cannot confirm nor deny this information. i have not analyzed meta regarding my voting patterns. to what are you referring when you describe my pattern as "consistent"?

Just skimming through a few things, unless someone wants to counter claim charlaton I don't really see a reason to think he didn't just get the skill.

double voting should be confirmable in some way and the thought that charlatan had this ability already is a bit silly. finally, a voice of reason. pf: you are a ray of sunshine on an otherwise cloudy afternoon.

[don_johnson]

*yawn*

UnVote-------------Vote for HOHUM

how do you feel about the current state of the game?

why should you have not been lynched yesterday?

@dj:
Re: Point 1 - You say now that Zeenon was obvtown but every post up until that point was contrary to that.

yes. zeenon was not obvtown to me until the very end of the day. see below.

Re: Point 2 - Your post was 2 minutes before deadline. I find you to be a fairly sharp man...much smarter than me and I had figured out that if we left the votes as they were that we would either prove Zeenon as telling the truth and lynch hohum (good) or lynch liar Zeenon (good). But your vote at the end seemed to want to prevent that verification.

no. my vote was not to try and stop any sort of verification. i saw no reason to lynch town zeenon. it seemed as though people werer wanting to lynch zeenon to use his "ability" as a scumhunting tool. i.e. lynch for information knowing he's town. i chose instead to take a chance on someone who gave us a shot of "hitting" scum. the wifom around it leaves very little motivation for my actions if i am scum.

Re: Point 3 - Again, this was an after thought. All votes but most votes took the form of "unvote, vote [insert name]" with an occassional semicolon on they're own line. The revote of zeenon in back to back posts did not follow this format and it was the only one. It's the smallest of the points I will concede. But just to set my mind at ease, how bout you vote like this for the rest of the day UnVoTe-------Vote for [insert name in all caps]!!! :p (I feel a vote coming my way...lol)

this may end up being quite the pain in the ass. as i said: no voting ability here.

[don_johnson]

d_j, is hohum likely scum?

honestly, i have no idea at this point. my vote on rhinox seemed to be accomplishing nothing, so i would rather camp the vote where it may help. hohum is a difficult player to read, but i will be taking a closer look. active lurking should not be tolerated on day 2. i was thinking of voting gorrad, but he's v/la for a few days, so in the meantime, i would like some content from hohum. that said, i don't see any reason to abandon the vote count speculation, but i am certainly not the man you want heading up that investigation.

[don_johnson]

Would you describe what you're doing as "following the crowd"?

directed at whom?

[don_johnson]

then no.

[don_johnson]

then no.

'Coulda fooled me.
Here I thought you were poor dj, trapped between two choices you didn't like because we were at deadline. Now that we're not at deadline, you're

still

placing yourself between two choices, neither of which you had much interest in D1.

what are you talking about? there are more than two(three) choices. i am focusing on the ones i think will be worth it at this time. you're just being a jerk now.

[don_johnson]

what are you talking about? there are more than two(three) choices. i am focusing on the ones i think will be worth it at this time. you're just being a jerk now.

Whatever happened to your suspicions from D1?

it's not day 1.

[don_johnson]

*yawn*

[don_johnson]

*yawn*

Really? That's as bad as hohum.

so is that.

[don_johnson]

Please refrain from kissing my ass. You haven't said too much about my play all game even during day 1. Now that Xtoxm has turned as mason and said I was his real partner this struck me as odd. I got to wonder if you were just now trying to buddy up to me. After all, A simple QFT would have suficed.

fuck you too.

your plan may backfire horribly. if there is another double voter, then they were on zee's wagon, no? using vi's research, can't we objectively narrow down our suspects and try something else? i.e. have charlatan vote for who may be scum double voter, and then them vote for him. have jahudo speed up deadline. no lynch means char is lying. no lynch is not a great option, obviously, but may be better than drawing false conclusions from inaccurate data. if lynch goes through, we still lynch who we want.

[don_johnson]

if people think i manipulated the vote at the end of day 1 for scummy reasons can they please list what those reasons might be?

juls accused me then of protecting zeenon. i am obviously not scumbuddies with zeenon. if i wasn't protecting zeenon, what the hell was i doing? protecting hohum? if you think i am scum, then you should be thinking hohum is my partner, no?

stream of consciousness is what it is, man. i can't hold your hand through all of this. the events spiraling towards yesterdays lynch led me to realize late that zeenon was most likely telling the truth. it seemed like an awful lot of contribution and strategizing last minute from someone who could have just faded away.

where did my day 1 suspicions go? they are here. are we near deadline? if you want to lynch vi or juls i am all for it, but to not give people the benefit of the doubt is just plain ignorant. there are only a few reasons players survive night one: they are scum, scum believe them to be viable mislynches, or scum is afraid to target them. it is reasonable to assume that if juls is town, she is here because she would be the most viable mislynch. if vi is town, scum may have been afraid of a doc protect or some such intervention. truth? who knows. reasonable explanations? could be.

point being: its time to move on. i am not going to push a wagon.

pf: i stated yesterday that i didn't see the case on you. at this point you are confirmed town, so yours is the only opinion i can truly say is protown.

lynching charlatan without a counterclaim is ridonkulous. i have seen zeenon replace out of games before and though i hate meta arguments, i have known zee to be useless, a liar, and a flake. vindictive? no. purposefully dishonest and/or evil? no. the fact that he flipped town makes me believe what he said.

[don_johnson]

vote for her(him... it.)

i'm sure they would like that.

[don_johnson]

Wait a second, how did I get to be Townie enough to warrant protection? Especially in your eyes.
I find this change of stance to be painfully artificial. I'm half tempted to suggest that the lack of votes on you is a sign that I'm on the right track.

no change in stance. you are misreading or misunderstanding. if you didn't notice, at least two players i can think of referred to your "experience" yesterday. if you are town, then scum

knows

you are. your wagon yesterday never picked up steam(much like mine today which you are now trying to paint as a scumtell btw). you would not fall into the category of "viable mislynch" in my book. there is no change in stance here, just speculation on why you are still alive if you are not scum. i.e. if one of those players kow-towing to you yesterday were doc, they very well may have protected you. i don't think you are townie at all. i think you are scum who should be lynched. should i start making up some fliers?

[don_johnson]

its not cool. never was. zilla is twisting my posts. vi is ignoring my reasons behind what i said.

i did explain why i switched votes at the end of the day yesterday. it seemed to me that zeenon was town, that everyone was believing he was town and still wanting to lynch him. this makes no sense to me, scumhunting tool or not. zee was town. should no have been willfully lynched. juls was even lynching zee

just to see if he was telling the truth

.

i like the duet here by vi and zilla.

when i consciously try to avoid tunneling on my day 1 suspicions so as to try and play this game open minded, vi accuses me of not scumhunting. have you ever read towndj? he's got a horrible track record. he tunnels incessantly and has NEVER lynched scum successfully.

juls/vi/zilla is looking awfully scummy right now. juls was pushing all day yesterday about my "hostility" level, vi seems to want contradictory behavior from me and also can't seem to understand the difference between speculation and belief. zilla seems to have come out of nowhere with a boat load of misrep.

Just about every time Don John calls "misrep!" i'ts because h'es using one of his contradictory stances. I almost don't want to go on reading this stuff, because it's giving me a headache.

contradictory stances can be indicative of someone who is "uninformed". funny how you don't see that possibility.

[don_johnson]

and so it goes...

unvote

[don_johnson]

DJ: You're saying you're "uninformed" when you literally say one thing and do another? This totally is not an answer to my accusations on you. I pointed out where you deliberately lied by falling back on "fence-sitting" statements that you made when you were totally not on the fence at all, as the evidence shows. I absolutely hate that you claimed to be on the fence as a defense whenever someone tried to nail you for being on a position that YOU ACTUALLY WERE ON.

i never said i was uninformed. you are taking my statements and twisting them.

That's total BS.

yes. it is bs. you are wonderfully scummy today.

Also, nice OMGUS that I'm suddenly in your pool of scum because I turned up the heat on you.

you haven't turned up shit. your case is terrible and full of misrepresentation.

go, bandwagon, go!


juls:

Hold the train! I call bull shit. I left my vote on Zeenon to see if he was telling the truth. I knew if there were a tie and he lived I would believe him. I did NOT expect him to die AND flip town. I figured he would either
1) not die
2) die and flip scum

My thoughts never went to he would die and flip town because I put my bets that he was lying scum or truthful town.

you put your bets that he was lying scum or truthful town. therefore you lynched him to see if he was telling the truth.

juls was even lynching zee just to see if he was telling the truth.

what exactly is your problem with my statement. it implies nothing more than what you have just presented.

So weak. I know you are better than this. My questioning your hostility has everything to do with your playstyle changing in this game.

as opposed to what other game? has it not occurred to you that don_johnson doesn't play to a particular meta? have you read anything with dj besides hard nights?

Right now I think my vote is best placed on don though because he has said/done some things that I would not expect out of town don (change vote last minute and make a case on me because I have said he is being hostile)

i changed my vote to avoid lynching someone who seemed in the closing minutes of the day to be EXTREMELY TOWN. my case on you is not solely based on your repetitive "hostility" question.

that said: lynching me is a bad idea.

[don_johnson]

fine by me. i am

consigliere

.

i am basically a masonizer with a twist. at night i can send a pm to the mod containing one players name. if that player holds the role of

crime boss

, then we become masons.

when zee dropped the role name, i was thinking he was "EXTREMELY TOWN".

[don_johnson]

Whose name did you submit the first night?

charlatan.

And do you and the Crime Boss become masons immediately? (As in, can you speak on the same night you successfully use the power?)

i believe so. last night i recieved a pm telling me i could not successfully use my ability. i figured i was roleblocked, but i am wondering if i couldn't connect because of the timing of events. i.e. when exactly did you get a pm telling you you were the boss?

a masonizer is someone who starts the game as a vanilla, but can choose someone to become "masons" with. for my role, i have to find the crime boss.

[don_johnson]

i am basically a masonizer with a twist. at night i can send a pm to the mod containing one players name. if that player holds the role of crime boss, then we become masons.

when zee dropped the role name, i was thinking he was "EXTREMELY TOWN".

oh really? Lets take a trip down memory lane...

unvote, vote zeenon

if you have a transferable power, i am happy to take it. not sure why its odd that i don't trust you.

at this point he had not claimed the role. i had no idea crime boss was transferable.

Alright, seriously. The first list I posted is the list that I am going to send to the mod.
The one with charlatan first because he is the most scummy to me.
charlatan: I suggest you start thinking of what a

Crime Boss

would work like.

i don't like this at all. again, its a no win situation for dj.

vote: zeenon

Extremely town huh?

not yet. it's no win for me. i.e. i lynch the crime boss, or go with the unclaimed "lurker/policy" lynch. i was against the hohum lynch, rmrmeber? zeenon also claimed his role was "transferable".

And there is much more to my role than meets the eye.. take that scum!

^^^ this got me thinking.

]Care to explain why you voted afterwards don if he was "extremely town"? It makes your vote/revote even more of an intriguing question.

what if hohum was doc? same reason i was against the hohum lynch in the first place. hence the unvote/vote, hence my internal debate about whether or not to go through with the zeenon lynch. i am semi-confirmable. lynching me is silly.

[don_johnson]

fail guys, i am town. vi should be lynched next.

[don_johnson]

gorrad: not sure who brought it up, but there was speculation about this being a masons/mafia type set up very early on. there has been mod confirmation that there exists no survivor roles, and the mafia is possibly a force of four. my role technically has a 10% chance of succeeding on night 1. is that so odd?

i cannot be a double voter. the cases on me have been laden with misrep. what possible motivation would i have for my actions at the end of day one if not the ones which i have put forth?

[don_johnson]

mod: am i hammered or what?

[don_johnson]

deej, why did you flip your vote in the last five minutes of D1?

though i hated lynching an absentee, knowing zeenon was most likely town simply raised the probability that hohum might be scum. i was trying to do what was best for town. i.e. lynch scum.

It is still possible for one of the following to be true:
*The Crime Boss title did not pass down (charlatan is scum) (can be confirmed either way later)

i doubt this highly. if zeenon lied in this manner then i will lobby for them to banned from this site. players, at the very least, should be bound to play to their win conditions. willfully giving scum a safehaven seems to me to be against the town win condition.

*d_j is everything he claimed to be, and still scum.

not sure which scum you think would carry this power, but yes, i realize that a successful night action would not necessarily confirm me as town.

i cannot be a double voter.

Are you claiming part of your role, or are you saying you are not a double voter right now?

i suppose i could be. i am not now but it is not part of my role to not be. i think if charlatan were scum i would have recieved the crime boss role. there is nothing stipulating that i cannot, and apparently zee stated in thread that the power is transferred to the first town aligned player on the list and granted in addittion to existing powers.

Incidentally @d_j: Any relevant flavor that would support your claim?

no. just alignment, role name, and ability.

[don_johnson]

You said you did not want to assume charlatan was anything but the doublevoter he claimed to be from the beginning of the Day (#79). You have had literally no confirmation that charlatan is a doublevoter (you did not receive a message saying you were Roleblocked, just that your ability would not take effect). Is this confidence in charlatan based solely on ZEEnon's words?

i would say "mainly" instead of "solely". if zeenon lied about his role, then he screwed the town and should not be allowed in these forums. when i recieved the response to my night action i half expected to recieve another pm granting me the role of crime boss. i also speculated that the role might pass me over due to the particulars of my ability. but a another pm never came. i tried to draw out a counterclaim, but to no avail.

as i mentioned before, zeenon presents himself as many things, but a vindictive poor sport is not one of them(imo). also, please note that i cannot confirm whether or not char is a double voter, only that he did in fact recieve the role of crime boss. whether or not the ability goes with it is going to need to be proven in thread.

[don_johnson]

candidates for null vote: dj, rhinox

VP: do you think zeenon lied to us about his role being able to be passed down?

to all: what are the odds of a double voting scum role offsetting the crime boss?

[don_johnson]

Regarding don's claim: Don, what happens if the crime boss dies after you successfully become masons?

there is nothing in my role pm regarding my ability being "singular" or one-shot. i am assuming i can try and try again. perhaps the new boss "inherits" me. i could be wrong. not sure if the mod will confirm any of that information for me, but i will ask. google "consigliere". it is quite interesting. i thought it meant "doorman".

On paper, its a confirmable role (but not allignment). However, it also seems easy to be able to avoid role confirmation by either being "blocked", or nking the known crime boss.

please name me a role that can't easily avoid confirmation by roleblock or nk. i find this point irrelevant.

But I think you DO have some idea what mechanics are in play. And you're in no hurry to confirm or deny anything.

QFT. rhinox certainly appears to be a missing link here. perhaps a role claim is in order.

anyways, i am off to work.

[don_johnson]

This makes no sense. You would totally win if you gained a mason partner by saving Zeenon. Lynching a lurker is not the worst thing in the world on D1 and for you to act like that is a lose/lose is silly. If you are who you say you are then it would have been a win/lose situation at worst.

i can't explain it any better. neither lynch was optimal for me. nor for town(imo). we'll see how korlash responds, but hohum was a general null read for me. leaning scummy at times, but it was hohum, so i don't know what you expect me to say. if not today, we should certainly mass claim tomorrow. this game is no ordinary mini. i think we could have broken it with a day 1 mc.

zilla: why so adamant about hohum? it seems to me there are much scummier things afoot, and his replacement has fifty pages to read. perhaps you should focus elsewhere before condemning him. have you ever read hohum before?

rhinox: claim. now. please.

[don_johnson]

am i alone in wanting a rhinox claim?

also, if we are going to lynch me, we should be testing rhinox or charlatan's alleged/possible voting abilities, no?

rhinox: why the jumpy vote? i am up for lynch today, there seems to be no need to pile on a vote. if you want me lynched, just say so. placing me in a quick lynch situation is only helpful to scum. i.e. there are questions about the validity of certain players votes and their claimed abilities. by lynching without testing those abilities, town will find itself in the same boat tomorrow as it is in today. did you forget about the speculation of a scum double voter? are you trying to sneak onto the wagon? again: please claim.

[don_johnson]

i don't see the benefit in trying to make sense out of hohum's mess. i think the best thing you can do is get caught up and post who you think is scum and why.

nothing seems to have gone cold from where i'm sitting. four voters are on my wagon. if we really want to lynch me, we should at least be coming up with a plan to test for a scum double voter. if there isn't one, then we test charlatan. i.e. let people take turns trying to hammer me from L-2, etc. that actually sounds kind of fun.

personally, i think i'm gonna ride the rhino.

vote: rhinox

seriously, stop beating around the bush and tell us who you are.

[don_johnson]

vi: i am town aligned if that's what you are asking, but consigliere is my role name. just saw lucinda williams in concert(excellent). i will post more tomorrow.

i find it probable that juls is actually faye valentine, but rhinox' recent posting has my attention. however, if we are talking strictly flavor, i believe jet black is an ex issp officer, no?

[don_johnson]

vi: i don't know what you are looking for, i have one title. i am a high ranking member of the white tiger crime syndicate and advisor to the crime boss. each night etc., etc.

jahudo answered some questions about the role mechanics, but vaguely. it should work tonight barring interference. i am not sure we want the answers in thread just yet as it may allow scum to manipulate the outcome.

[don_johnson]

no to hammering me thinks. char needs to drop the hammer to test his ability, no?

vi, you're getting wierd. are you saying you don't want rhinox to claim?

[don_johnson]

a pattern of avoidance.

[don_johnson]

a pattern of avoidance.

Also for placing an unexplained L-1 vote on a player a post after saying they had three better suspects.

I let my emotions get the better of me.

define "pattern" of avoidance.

let's see? oh, that's right: how many times have you been asked for a roleclaim?

[don_johnson]

I believe Rhinox.

If for no other reason, than because we only had one kill N1 and I'd be rather shocked if a mini theme didn't have two killers. IMPORTANT: This is NOT a call for people to say 'oh, I have (role), so I probably caused us to only have one kill'. That's a bozo no-no. I'm just saying, I don't remember a mini theme I've been in without some form of doc, and we only had one kill N1.

you are implying here that someone targeted pf for an nk. not sure if i buy that rival scum would just happen to target both masons and that they would both choose a different one. before anyone flips out: "rival scum" has many meanings and i can't think of a better way to say it. anyways, flavor would help, but associate sounds a bit odd for doc.

[don_johnson]

that's either a lynch or char's ability is bogus, no?

mod: current vote count please.

[don_johnson]

you guys are aware that rhinox is currently sitting with six votes if char =2?

[don_johnson]

is anyone even listening to ol' dj? i think we just lynched rhinox...

[don_johnson]

I still be hating on DJ's claim
More masons and he lynched ZeeNon knowing of a crime boss? Did you really think a crime boss could be scum? I suggest you all gill him on this!

i didn't lynch zee.

[don_johnson]

no dice. i sent in charlatan's name and was told i could not perform the action. i am guessing roleblocker. it seems an easy set-up for a mislynch today imo.

pf: your issues with me seem to be a rehash of things i have already explained. not sure what you are looking for.

vp: why were you not voting?

[don_johnson]

juls: kind of a jumpy vote. you do realize that there is absolutely zero pressure involved in that vote. i.e. its quite obvious i would be under suspicion. voting off the bat without any discussion and/or a massclaim is kind of odd.

FoS: juls

also, have you no questions of vi's sanity and/or analysis? driving my wagon is just plain, lackidaisical scumhunting.

[don_johnson]

this one.

vote: don_johnson

[don_johnson]

yes. damnit.

[don_johnson]

pierre lefoux.

serial killer. i haven't killed anyone. it seemed too risky.

who are you?

[don_johnson]

funny. you don't look town.

[don_johnson]

sounds like a great idea.

thanks, G. good luck!

[don_johnson]

my apologies to the scum team. honestly i think the set-up could have gone either way. first post miller claim was excellent move, and town in general played really well as a unit. personally, i feel like i let my team down in this one. i should have taken the lynch day 2 instead of bussing, or at least pushed it off and tried to get a mislynch. rhinox was playing good scum and his ability(lack thereof) would have been awfully useful had it been there the last day. i.e. it could have been used to mislynch someone claiming the "boss" ability. egocentrically, i went for self preservation because i think i'm good scum, but this game was humbling. sorry, rhino, you were playing excellent. day 3, the self hammer backfired and seemed to offer town points to both juls and gorrad. in short, i am sorry guys.

on the bright side, i loved the cast and had an absolute blast in this one. always entertaining to read.