Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Haterade]

Hi I'm here!

[Haterade]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

[Haterade]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

First of all, the context of him bringing it up was not clear. Since he said he didn't have problems with my play before, I was assuming that he was saying I always play like this, in which case I was pointing out a logical flaw by pointing out that I was a SK in that game.

Secondly, how the fuck am I hiding something? I was the one who came out and said I was SK in this game, and therefore all it did is show that I am capable of playing helpfully as SK. The conclusion I drew was a reason to doubt a pro town read on me.

How the fuck is that "hiding" something? In fact, all I did was give reasons why you SHOULDN'T have a pro town read on me.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

You sure tried to make it sound like you were inherently protown in that post in that game, despite not being town at all.

Because you responded to a legitimate protown point (I didn't find the original context confusing in the least, but that's just me) with a whole giant clarification schpiel about how using that game to justify your context for this game isn't right because you were the SK and you can't configure alignment based off of that (yeah right...that's total BS).

In other words, you were distancing yourself from that logic using a flawed and nitpicky system; I considered it overreacting and overdefensive.

[Haterade]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

First of all, the context of him bringing it up was not clear. Since he said he didn't have problems with my play before, I was assuming that he was saying I always play like this, in which case I was pointing out a logical flaw by pointing out that I was a SK in that game.

Secondly, how the fuck am I hiding something? I was the one who came out and said I was SK in this game, and therefore all it did is show that I am capable of playing helpfully as SK. The conclusion I drew was a reason to doubt a pro town read on me.

How the fuck is that "hiding" something? In fact, all I did was give reasons why you SHOULDN'T have a pro town read on me.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

You sure tried to make it sound like you were inherently protown in that post in that game, despite not being town at all.

Because you responded to a legitimate protown point (I didn't find the original context confusing in the least, but that's just me) with a whole giant clarification schpiel about how using that game to justify your context for this game isn't right because you were the SK and you can't configure alignment based off of that (yeah right...that's total BS).

In other words, you were distancing yourself from that logic using a flawed and nitpicky system; I considered it overreacting and overdefensive.

[Haterade]

I agree with TSQ on every facet of the argument above. Haterade, if you are going to place a serious vote on someone (I am assuming this is not a random vote, based off the "case" you provided), have something to back up your justification, for as it is right now, you have nothing but several paragraphs of fallacy that does little in regards to scum hunting. How about actually reading the thread, comprehending the discussions already taking place, and provide something that might help us catch scum.

ugh shut up take your preaching somewhere else please

I'd policy vote you if I didn't think TSQ was mafia.

[Haterade]

Just two things to note about that, and keep in mind I am drunk so take them with a grain of salt:

1) I was sk in that game, so you can't really discern anything about my alignment from that game.

2) I have no clue why I haven't been scummy nominated for best SK for that game. I caught all the scum, and then pulled the wool completely over the rest of the towns eyes for the win. That was like the penultimate of scum play. I'm actually kind of miffed about lack of nomination from that game.

All ranting aside, all that shows is that I'm capable of being helpful and questioning as scum (although not directly as mafia, which is important because I tend to play SK like a town aligned player until I go for the kill) I'm not sure why you brought it up, although it was fun to reread my pwnage of farside.

Did you forget what role I was in that game?

vote: thestatusquo

Why would you get this overly critical about someone bringing up something clearly pro-town? Imagine:

"hey, check it out, I saw this game where someone was playing exactly the same way as another game where they were the sk, there's a chance we could be onto something here."

Is that not a pro-town thing to do?

Hiding much?

First of all, the context of him bringing it up was not clear. Since he said he didn't have problems with my play before, I was assuming that he was saying I always play like this, in which case I was pointing out a logical flaw by pointing out that I was a SK in that game.

Secondly, how the fuck am I hiding something? I was the one who came out and said I was SK in this game, and therefore all it did is show that I am capable of playing helpfully as SK. The conclusion I drew was a reason to doubt a pro town read on me.

How the fuck is that "hiding" something? In fact, all I did was give reasons why you SHOULDN'T have a pro town read on me.

Your logic makes no sense at all.

You sure tried to make it sound like you were inherently protown in that post in that game, despite not being town at all.

Because you responded to a legitimate protown point (I didn't find the original context confusing in the least, but that's just me) with a whole giant clarification schpiel about how using that game to justify your context for this game isn't right because you were the SK and you can't configure alignment based off of that (yeah right...that's total BS).

In other words, you were distancing yourself from that logic using a flawed and nitpicky system; I considered it overreacting and overdefensive.

Read my post again, and pleeeeease point out to me where I claim to be protown because of it. Please.

Like, you're not making any sense. The conclusion I draw is that I am NOT pro town because of that game. You're trying to attribute to me the exact opposite position that I took, and then attacking me for it.

Seriously, please show me in that post where I claim to be pro town because of it?

"Check out this game, where TSQ has played very similarly to this one and was SK. Something to think about."
"You can't discern my alignment from that game, because I was SK."

[Haterade]

I agree with TSQ on every facet of the argument above. Haterade, if you are going to place a serious vote on someone (I am assuming this is not a random vote, based off the "case" you provided), have something to back up your justification, for as it is right now, you have nothing but several paragraphs of fallacy that does little in regards to scum hunting. How about actually reading the thread, comprehending the discussions already taking place, and provide something that might help us catch scum.

ugh shut up take your preaching somewhere else please

I'd policy vote you if I didn't think TSQ was mafia.

Gladly, once you stop distorting posts to suit your own obscure and fallacious cases.

Oh really? On what grounds; disagreeing with you?

no, you're unnecessarily being a soapbox ass

I am not sure I unerstand Hate's beef with TSQ...I agree with kloud that it appears that hate is distorting (I prefer the term "Stretching") the facts...But is he doing it to scum hunt or push a bullshit case?...I dont know.

Hate, can you (in layman's term for the slow) explain why you think TSQ is mafia? Your thoughts on why TSQ doesnt have any other votes other than yourself?

I feel like the post I put into questions was a reactionary post to someone making an observation that could build a case on him. This may be me, but the tone of the post seemed oddly combative...as if us looking the game over ourselves isn't going to provide proper context for his actions. He needed to explain his actions out to us totally unnecessarily and before anyone else could chime in and post initial thoughts.

The post totally seemed odd to me, because it seemed like TSQ was intentionally trying to change the direction of where conversation was headed instead of letting discussion on him continue about him as-is. This is one of my favorite scumtells, and the more I thought about the post, the more it made sense that he'd want to do that.

Since, you know, that TSQ-game-connection could totally make sense as a decent case. He acted like this in another game and he was antitown? Perhaps that's a trend...?

[Haterade]

You still haven't explained how me explaining how I don't seem protown because of that game is me claiming to be protown.

Please do so.

You "corrected" the context of that game and disagreed with a player who did a protown thing. You may not have done it explicitly, but to me, that post made it sound like you were implicitly defining your innocence.

With that said, I don't think I've ever seen a game where "I have practically proven that I said I was antitown" has ever been the main message.

[Haterade]

I agree with TSQ on every facet of the argument above. Haterade, if you are going to place a serious vote on someone (I am assuming this is not a random vote, based off the "case" you provided), have something to back up your justification, for as it is right now, you have nothing but several paragraphs of fallacy that does little in regards to scum hunting. How about actually reading the thread, comprehending the discussions already taking place, and provide something that might help us catch scum.

ugh shut up take your preaching somewhere else please

I'd policy vote you if I didn't think TSQ was mafia.

Gladly, once you stop distorting posts to suit your own obscure and fallacious cases.

Oh really? On what grounds; disagreeing with you?

no, you're unnecessarily being a soapbox ass

If wanting someone to actually read the thread so that they can make an informed and logical case justifies a policy lynch in your mind, then so be it. Cherry picking small segments of posts and not reading blocks of content in their entirety before making arguments out of them only impedes town discussion, thus detracting from scum hunting efforts, which was my reasoning for saying something in the first place. I find slightly comical that you would make such a statement so early in the game, and also makes me believe that I might have struck something to make you feel the need to become aggressive in your defenses.

So far TSQ and I are the only ones having a legitimate discussion here and it's kind of rude and hypocritical of you to attempt to derail it by posting your irrelevant and antiprogressive trolls. Participate or don't, but don't be an annoying bitch. Thanks.

TSQ I'll respond to you later, going off to drink now

[Haterade]

Because he DIDN'T give context, dude. He just pointed to the game.

I wasn't disagreeing with his context, because he didn't give any.

I WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT I WAS SK.

I thought it was scummy that you had to stand on the soapbox and tell us that for ourselves instead of letting us come to our own judgement.

The post said "I was SK in that game, so all it proves is that you should doubt pro town reads on me."

How is that even CLOSE to "Implicitly defining my innocence"

Like... It's not EVEN CLOSE.

I have explained this already, and you have yet to counter it, instead just saying that it's not even close.

[Haterade]

So far TSQ and I are the only ones having a legitimate discussion here and it's kind of rude and hypocritical of you to attempt to derail it by posting your irrelevant and antiprogressive trolls. Participate or don't, but don't be an annoying bitch. Thanks.

TSQ I'll respond to you later, going off to drink now

Really, you don't think a player pressing someone who voted someone without substantial reasoning for doing so for responses while asking them to read the thread more carefully is derailing discussion? Are you honestly disregarding all discussions that took place prior to your vote, including the inquiries dealing with CW's vote (I would still like a response about the contradictory statements, if only to clarify) and all other content as illegitimate? TSQ has proven your case invalid, he did so in his first response, which is why I asked you in the first place to read more carefully in the first place. This does not derail anything, as it will help ensure that all opinions are contributing towards a town win.

What does derail discussion, however, is fallacy and unnecessary ad hominem retorts, as neither help acquire information or encourage open dialogue.

I still think my reasoning is valid. I have countered every point he's made with my reasoning because my first post was a little unclear on my original case on him. Get over yourself. I'll give myself a fine pat on the back when TSQ flips as scum.

[Haterade]

Just as a sidenote here:

I realize that I probably misread TSQ's post I'm questioning

, but just because I misread it doesn't mean that his post was any less scummy. I have already explained why.

[Haterade]

Um... Its not a case of judgment, because it's not subjective. You don't have to judge that I was a SK, I WAS a SK. It's not effecting anyones judgment to give them true information before they read the game.

That in itself wasn't a case of trying to influence our judgment, but the way you immediately got onto the soapbox and explained to us the context of that game before anyone had a chance to go over it themselves seemed scummy to me.

Let me put it this way: If I was in your position, and someone referenced an earlier game of mine where I was scum, I wouldn't feel the need to post contextual information about the game and wouldn't need to respond to it until I would start getting called on it.

I may be wrong, and give me a reason why this is as blatantly wrong as you say it is if it is, but I just think it's kind of fishy that you made that post, it was as if you were trying to dodge something by creating the discussion on yourself instead of letting other people do it. I find that scummy. that's ultimately nothing more than a gut feeling i guess but whatever

That and I think your early-game questioning was just kind of weird. That's why I think you're scum.

And second you have NOT explained it. I am directly attacking your explanation. You have said I was "Implicitely defending my innocence" And have not stated WHY, or how that makes ANY SENSE given the fact that what I was actually doing was talking about how I was guilty in that game.

But I did! The tone of your post implied that you were a bit combative with the original player who posted that link, and it was like disagreeing with the post. You may not have actually done it but it sure sounded like it. Everything about that post just smelled fishy.

Your point, as it now stands is this "TSQ made a post in which he tried to effect our judgment about whether or not he was actually a SK in a game, when he should have let us find out if we believed he was a SK on our own. THEN he pretended to be town by saying he was scummy in that game so that we would think he was town... IMPLICITELY"

Like, thats exactly what you're arguing. Does it make sense to you? If you can't see how the above paragraph is complete crap, then please get your head examined.

Secondly, if you think I'm mischaracterizing your argument at all, please point out where and how.

Hopefully the above words will have represented my argument better. Apologies if I've been unclear.

[Haterade]

1) Why would creating discussion about how I can be helpful as anti-town benefit me as scum? That's whats making no sense about what you're saying, right? Mafia is a game of motivations. I just simply don't see a motivation for a scum player to say "By the way, I think you should doubt pro town reads on me." If you see one, please point it out to me. This is not to say that it clears me- It doesn't- but in order to attack someone you should be able to say why their actions are necessarily more likely to come from a scum player than a town player. That's the definition of "scummy."

I see your point, but I don't see how doing #1 would make you any more town, either, so it's essentially a null tell. Besides, you certainly could whip out this "defense" of your actions as scum as if it was a manufactured ploy.

2) I ask you the same question about my questioning. Do you think creating discussion is good for the town or good for the scum? Do you think my questioning created discussion? Do you think it moved us out of the random voting stage? Answer these questions to yourself, and then try to think of the scum motivation for the action. I mean, like, you throw terms like "scum" around, without thinking what they mean. In order for an action to be scummy, or "weird" as you put it, you would have to attack it by claiming that it is more likely to come from a scum player than a town player. Thats the basis for the whole game. If you can do that with this, then I would be very surprised. Again, I'm not saying this clears me, but I would argue that what I did was distinctly helpful to the town, and I think you would be hard pressed to find a reason why it wasn't.

To answer your questions in order: It can go either way, yes, yes. However, in regards to the last two, that doesn't get you any more townie brownie points, either -- the scum's job in this game is to try to blend in with the town, and I always get the feeling that people who try to coordinate the town's discussion by asking them questions about what they think in the early game use their questioning as an effort to not lay down any scumtells, i.e. their "contributions" to the game aren't analyzed as easily because they're doing the question-asking and not question-answering. Those who don't answer questions or talk during the game seem to be scum a lot more than the alternative, I find.

Not that that last paragraph applies to this game directly at all yet. My case on you isn't infallible, but it's what I think at this point in the game.

3) I wasn't combative at all! The most combative I got in that post was ranting about how I hadn't been scummy nominated for that game, and that wasn't even directed at the OP. He did not provide the information that I was SK in the game, so I felt compelled to provide it in case people misunderstood his post to say that he felt I was being pro-town. This is because he had said earlier that he didn't have any problem with my play. Nowhere in that post do I attack him. Nowhere in that post do I FOS him. Nowhere in that post do I vote him. I simply point out an important piece of information that was missing from his post, and ask if he forgot about it. Re-read the post again, please point out what is combative about it?

I said in my earlier post that it only sounded combative to me. It was probably just because you were drunk.

[Haterade]

1) That's the point, though haterade. In fact, I specifically said "this doesn't clear me." But you're the one MAKING THE ATTACK. If I prove that what you're attacking is a null tell, then I have disproved your attack. The burden of proof is on you to show why my actions are more likely to come from scum than from town. At the point where you say it's a null tell, you're admitting you just attacked me for nothing.

2) Same response. If your attack basically boils down to "Yes, what you did was good for the town because it took us out of the random voting stage and created discussion, BUT you could have done it as scum to look like a townie" then you don't have an attack. Otherwise you would attack every action that every townie ever took.

As to the non answering questions thing: Do you think I have been avoiding discussing and stating my own opinions this game? I think I have done the exact opposite. I think I have been probably the most vocal player, and have stated my opinions very clearly.

Heh, it's very possible that it was because I was drunk. Believe me, you'll know when I'm combative. That wasn't combative.

The main problem with your case is that it boils down to "Yes, town is more likely to these things, BUT SCUM CAN DO THEM TOO IN ORDER TO LOOK TOWN."

Which is basically non-sensical, because it would mandate you attack every player who ever did anything good for the town, JUST IN CASE.

Unvote

, this will do good for now


I still have my eye on you though, you're still fishy to me.

[Haterade]

Sorry I've been away; midterms this week and being really busy and little Haterade being time-consuming and etc.

Although in a reread I have nothing new to add.

[Haterade]

dahill1 strikes me as town.

I have bad feelings about scotmany. I'm going to reread his posts and come up with something.