Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[dahill1]

vote cayke (crywolf)

for being a nazi and also what shea said

[dahill1]

(6:51:27 PM) soccerh888: cay's a nazi
(6:51:27 PM) CryWolf20084: yes

moving on, why would a truly random vote be optimal for you?
also, this is unrelated but a d11 actually has a higher chance of landing on you than a d12 :/

[dahill1]

Word? Don't you know about the bird? Well, everyone knows that the bird is a word.

Aaaaaaand enough of that froggy bull (GET IT? IT'S A PUN!).

FoS: MBF

for being a traitor to one of your kin.

On the other hand, Michigan is an land populated entirely by criminals, as everyone knows, and criminals are used to not being trusted, as CW is not trusted by you, so not only can he not choose the wine in front of you, but your suspicion of him is founded on solid evidence.

UnFoS

.

TSQ is probably town by virtue of being totally unhelpful. He's like Flameaxe that way.

if everyone in Michigan are criminals, then aren't the both scum
:teach:

[dahill1]

Hi I'm here!

Hi say something with a point!

seems kind of hypocritical since you haven't really said anything contentful as well

[dahill1]

Ok, TSQ, now you're just being ridiculous.

haha I soooo agree with this.

TSQ, can I request that you stop this jack-ass like questioning of everything

yeah scumhunting sucks doesn't it?

[dahill1]

yeah i think TSQ's play being similar so far to his SK play is not much of a tell at all, as SKs have to scumhunt as well

[dahill1]

Guys, crywolf is pretty clearly town.

she's not really scummy, but i would hardly clear her or anyone else as town at this point

[dahill1]

Sounds like a classical case of an overly defensive beginner.

No such thing as overdefensive. Defending yourself is not a scum tell.

QFT on this one

also

unvote

. didn't realize i still had my vote on cay

regarding Haterade, i'm actually getting a slight town read from what i've seen of his play before. once he makes his case, he pretty much sticks with it even if it doesn't make the most sense. not saying he's right about TSQ, but i don't think he's scum just because he made a bad case.

furthermore, i don't like kloud's constant use of these "textbook scumtells", per say. what i'm talking about is when he says things like: appeals to emotion, ad hominem (which i don't think is a scumtell at all), fallacies etc. I don't think these things are coming up as often as he's playing them out to be

[dahill1]

i've already stated my position on the matter; i don't think it needs repeating.
though i would like to hear more from Gorrad, MBF, RR, etc.

[dahill1]

Like I said, he seems to be adding not much to the game right now. Most of his comments have been about what he considers null-tells, which seems like a kind of active lurking.

Including my stances on TSQ and Haterade? how about my comments towards Gorrad and kloud? You seem to be conveniently ignoring those posts

Fairly neutral towards TSQ and dahill.

Why did you pick out these two people to mention specifically?

Because they are two people that I've played with, and have been fairly active.

Really? dahill was fairly active when you said this? When you made this statement, dahill had made 2-3 substantial posts, and the most recent were very wishy-washy.

yeah i think TSQ's play being similar so far to his SK play is not much of a tell at all, as SKs have to scumhunt as well

she's [crywolf] not really scummy, but i would hardly clear her or anyone else as town at this point

It feels like commenting for the sake of activity to me.

i don't see how that first statement (about TSQ) is wishy washy. it was a pretty clear stance that his being an SK was a nulltell, which definitely differed from others' views at the time. the second one about crywolf was intended to be neutral. i didn't see her as scum, but definitely not "clearly town" as TSQ said.

When I saw MBF's comment, the "fairly neutral on TSQ and dahill" looks exactly like a "I should probably mention my scumbuddy/ies at some point" post. I know it's early to be talking about buddies, but that comment really set off my alarms. As I currently have a town read on TSQ, that would leave dahill.

This is the part that I don't understand at all. so MBF decides to mention his scumbuddies...but TSQ is town...meaning I'm scum? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[dahill1]

Including my stances on TSQ and Haterade?

As far as I can tell, your stances on TSQ and Haterade are of that same "nothing interesting to add" ilk.

really? because i could've sworn i said i thought Haterade was town and was actually one of the first to do so, i think.
on Gorrad, i haven't mentioned his name specifically but i called him out on a hypocritical post.

What I mean is that from your set of posts, I can't tell at all what your suspicions are. Your comments thus far have seemed to say that nothing interesting has happened here yet, which is untrue and I think a scumtell.

first, please point out where i've said nothing interesting has happened. as for who my suspicions are right now, it's true i haven't really made a set list yet because i'm still forming my opinions. i don't see how that's scummy.

[dahill1]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

[dahill1]

Saying things are null-tells or town-tells is attacking validity of an argument. People are attacking Haterade for something, Dahill thinks what he is doing is a nulltell, so he is attacking the validity of the case against haterade. That is part of scumhunting.

beat me to it
exactly, would you (MacavityLock) prefer that i don't point out what i think are null/town tells? then you would just accuse me of lurking

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

and how is that scummy?
as i said i'm still compiling thoughts/rereading so their should be a vote soon. i don't really get why your tunneling in on me

[dahill1]

Fair points, but that's basically saying that you've found little to nothing suspicious so far, except for Gorrad's mild hypocrisy (which I disagree with by the way) and kloud's overuse of buzzwords. I still think my case is reasonable for page 6.

and how is that scummy?
as i said i'm still compiling thoughts/rereading so their should be a vote soon. i don't really get why your tunneling in on me

So, if I just kept popping in to say "I've found everything thus far to be null," you wouldn't find that suspicious? Also, the "tunneling" argument doesn't work on page 6. It's just too early.

of course i'm not going to be saying that the whole game. but as you said, it's page 6 there's still plently of time for me to find people scummy

[dahill1]

of course i'm not going to be saying that the whole game. but as you said, it's page 6 there's still plently of time for me to find people scummy

I don't disagree with that. Did I ever say that my vote was going to stay on you permanently?

then i don't see what this argument's about

[dahill1]

sorry for not posting, marathon day and such

and again, why mention it? How were we suppose to know you start at 50%? Your posts so far seem fluffy. I need a point of reference to know what 70% means from you. Right now, you have left yourself room to maneuver around if you have to. What is my % and why? TSQ’s? Scot’s? Cry’s…and why? How does lurking affect your %s?

do you really think that he's scummy due to his grading (of scumminess) system? how is this any different from other players do? vollkan's a good example of this type of system.

also, i'm comfortable with a

vote Gorrad

right now for a few reasons.
one because of the clear hypocrisy he made in his calling out of Haterade.
next, i don't like how he dismisses the TSQ/Haterade as "WIFOM", which i don't really see how it is. it felt like he was commenting on it for the sake of commenting on it. finally, from what i remember of playing with him, he tends to be much more active and aggressive as town and i'm not seeing that in this game.

[dahill1]

I dont know what I think yet...I think he posts are fluffy. I think his numbers are apparently meaningless and I am urging him to put some meaning behind them. I think numbers and percentages are suspect without meaning behind them...do you have a problem with me asking him to provide other's percentages as well? You are right, vollkan DOES provide percentageS....not just one. This is not what vollkan does.

This is someone who basically said he is getting a scummy vibe on someone...then, when pressured a bit about it...backs off, that I also find suspect, and I am not sure how you are missing that point....the defense is noted.

from your post, i was getting the impression that posting the percentages themselves was scummy; didn't see that you had included "without explanations". that makes more sense

[dahill1]

Scot, name two players you suspect and your reasoning please.

FoS gorrad

for constant active lurking.

Why did you decide to single me out for this? Why did you not ask any of the other people who are not voting? How bout crywolf whos vote was a random vote?

Answer my question first.

No, I'm good. You'll know when I'm ready to vote for someone.

so you'll just spring it on us when you're good and ready?
seems anti-town frankly to hide your suspicions

[dahill1]

No, I'm good. You'll know when I'm ready to vote for someone.

so you'll just spring it on us when you're good and ready?
seems anti-town frankly to hide your suspicions

Any particular reason you didn't call me out for the same thing? I did pretty much the exact same thing in

Don't just wait for a player who is inactive to answer questions. Be proactive, comment on shit. Get reactions. No one is going to play this game for you, and I'm not going to give you a free pass for not playing it either.

Oh don't worry, I will. I just don't want to tip my suspicions just yet.

yep didn't see it
but thanks for pointing it out

[dahill1]

Scot, name two players you suspect and your reasoning please.

FoS gorrad

for constant active lurking.

Why did you decide to single me out for this? Why did you not ask any of the other people who are not voting? How bout crywolf whos vote was a random vote?

Answer my question first.

No, I'm good. You'll know when I'm ready to vote for someone.

so you'll just spring it on us when you're good and ready?
seems anti-town frankly to hide your suspicions

Your point? I'm not ready to vote for someone yet, and I'm not going to vote for someone for a bullshit reason just so my vote is on someone.

not wanting to vote for anyone is different from not sharing your suspicions

[dahill1]

Well, see, I'm having a difficult time getting a decent read on anyone right now. I'm thinking I need to reread. Still though, it's strange that RR decided to only single me out.

ok. that's much different than how i interpreted your original post, which made it seem like you had suspicions but didn't wish to share them

also, prod: TSQ

[dahill1]

gah! received prod, sorry!
i'm happy with my vote on gorrad right now, but it could be switched with MBF or crywolf
i think i'm gonna have some sort of chart/list resembling Karne's up soonish

[dahill1]

I too am LA due to the fact I work tonight, tomorrow, Friday, and Saturday...along with two art projects that desperately need working on because its due on Monday. I may need replacing...I dunno how much I can catch up with...I will try.

9 pages is not that much...you seem to be active everywhere else..why?

If she truly is active elsewhere, then this lurking is very disturbing to me.

FoS: crywolf20084

I'm KINDA active elsewhere. This takes thought unlike the other places i've been posting.

And out of the nine pages I've read like three...maybe.

incredibly weak

unvote vote crywolf

[dahill1]

Wait...that's it? That's the big calling-out post? Gods above and below, I looked right over that. Are you saying I was wrong to ask him to say something with a point? I was at least /talking/, as opposed to such a worthless post when conversation was occuring.

not saying you were wrong in doing so, but it was pretty hypocritical on your part to do it

[dahill1]

And this hypocricy...makes me scummy somehow?

Well, personally I think hypocrisy is scummy. So yep

@farside: I wouldn't call it defending Haterade, but attacking Gorrad instead.

[dahill1]

i think crywolf should either claim soon or post a damn good case
ckd makes good points on karne and i'd be willing to switch my vote but i'd like to hear from cay first

[dahill1]

so you're....not a frog?

I hate to just claim and run, but i have to for now. I'm a Duck. A mason aligned with the town and i don't know what my mason buddy's alignment is... So i mean i guess I could suggest a lynch on him for i hate scum masons. I find them dirty, but that means I've would be reduced to a vanilla townie.

i don't like how you're suggesting a lynch on your supposed partner only because you don't know his/her alignment. it's basically "well they

could

be mafia so we might as well just lynch them because mafia are bad"

[dahill1]

So i don't even have a day read of him.

before you reveal anything else about your partner (please don't by the way), right now do you think he/she's scum, town, or nulltell?

[dahill1]

So i don't even have a day read of him.

before you reveal anything else about your partner (please don't by the way), right now do you think he/she's scum, town, or nulltell?

At them moment it's a null tell.

ok..
then what prompted you to say this?

i don't know what my mason buddy's alignment is... So i mean i guess I could suggest a lynch on him for i hate scum masons. I find them dirty, but that means I've would be reduced to a vanilla townie.

[dahill1]

So i don't even have a day read of him.

before you reveal anything else about your partner (please don't by the way), right now do you think he/she's scum, town, or nulltell?

At them moment it's a null tell.

ok..
then what prompted you to say this?

i don't know what my mason buddy's alignment is... So i mean i guess I could suggest a lynch on him for i hate scum masons. I find them dirty, but that means I've would be reduced to a vanilla townie.

That sounds to me like PM paraphrasing.

noted that you answered my question to her

[dahill1]

@Why i noted a lynch: I REALLY hate scum masons, and I'd hate to be played by one (As I have played the town as one before (Link to the game in my wiki)). I would PREFER to get through one night so i can talk to him/her and understand what his/her opinions are, but like i said, I'd hate to be played by a Scum Mason.

that still is irrelevant as to why you'd want to lynch your partner. sure there's a chance of s/he being a scum mason, but there's a chance that any of us are mafia. i know i hate being played by mafia, so why not lynch (insert name here). after all, they could be mafia.

[dahill1]

Cay's roleclaim of a duck does not bother me even though it is not a frog.

I agree with this statement. I'm going to give Crywolf a pass for now and place my vote elsewhere.

FOS: dahill

This isn't the first time Crywolf has said something that could be considered scummy, but you seem to be zeroing in on her scum-mason comment without actually giving an opinion on the claim itself.

to clarify, it's not crywolf's roleclaim thats bothering me, but her comments on wanting to lynch her partner despite having on nulltell on said partner. like ML, i don't see how zeroing in on that comment is scummy. if you want my opinion on the role claim, i think it's most likely true but right now i'm trying to figure out if she's a scum mason or not.

noted that you [CK] answered my question to her [CW]

Not sure I understand how CK's response answered your question. How do you mean?

because he gave an explanation for why she would want to lynch her partner. i don't get the confusion

[dahill1]

noted that you [CK] answered my question to her [CW]

Not sure I understand how CK's response answered your question. How do you mean?

because he gave an explanation for why she would want to lynch her partner. i don't get the confusion

"PM paraphrasing" is a reason she would want to lynch her partner? Still don't see it.

well not reason but an explanation for why she would say something like that, which i didn't like because it was basically feeding words for cay

[dahill1]

Alrighty. ready to play.

I don't rally have any FOSs right now, nd I'm not liable to do anything much yet.

...

[dahill1]

Alrighty. ready to play.

I don't rally have any FOSs right now, nd I'm not liable to do anything much yet.

So you have nothing to say?

....

speaking of which i noticed you seem to be more involved with the game now. finished your read yet?

[dahill1]

so you're voting me because i don't focus

enough

on flavor? that's a new one

i don't think Duck is indicative of any alignment, really. At first, I was taken aback because I expected the game to be all frogs, or frogs=town and poachers or something=scum. but the majority of people seeing it as a nulltell made me change my mind.

[dahill1]

QFT
2nding ML's questions
my thoughts exactly

[dahill1]

frankly, i think that both attacking and clearing someone solely based on flavor is ridiculous.
there's no way we can know if the scum are frogs/non-frogs, if all frogs are vanilla, etc.

[dahill1]

Pay attention, dahill. I'm not clearing Cry solely for her flavor. I'm giving her a temporary pass because of how risky such a fake claim would have been.

what if she is a Duck but not town?

[dahill1]

It is still a risky claim to make because there's no way to know that the town isn't entirely frogs.

meh, if she was a duck scum mason, i'd probably think that my mason wouldn't necessarily be a frog either

My assumption is that the mafia, most likely being some sort of anti-frog predator such as snakes, would have no knowledge that there were pro-town non-frogs and, thus, would not be so quick to claim a pro-town non-frog.

that's a fair assumption, but that's just the thing. it's an assumption which we can't prove for now. i realize that this applies to both of us

[dahill1]

i don't see why the other mason partner should claim either because the advantage is pretty small, bar the partner being a glork/vollkan/etc. and the disadvantage is bigger. i don't really like MBF's vote on Macavity right now especially Point A.

Yes, a duck could be a potentially risky claim

Thank you, moving on now.

You're really good at selectively quoting to serve your needs, aren't you?

agreed this was taken way out of context

[dahill1]

also, we need more people posting besides the 4-5 that are doing so now

[dahill1]

honestly i'm fine with my vote as she still has not convinced me for why she would possibly suggest lynching her partner. she hasn't really done anything else either

[dahill1]

NOTE: I'm going to be gone on the weekend and have limited access during the next week (which luckily coincides with the Night Phase), but I'll be here until Friday.

REMINDER: at deadline, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

I wouldn't mind lynching MacLock, RagingRabbit or dahill today. But since neither of them have any other votes, I'm going to

unvote, Vote No lynch

.

Gorrad, who do you think we should kill? With TSQ gone, you're the person I trust the most right now. Even though you have been eerily low-key all day phase.

No lynch? you

honestly

think that it is the best play for today?

[dahill1]

going to be V/LA this friday to sunday (april 3-5)

[dahill1]

oh wow i completely forgot he was even playing

[dahill1]

I have one thing to do, as this mexican internet is moving like a river of dung.

Vote crywolf

for not voting for... *checks calendar* 5 days.
After getting so many votes, just disapearing is the easiest way to not deal with questions. It also definatley shows that he is scum.

Also, I will be posting more once I get home. I'm on vacation, thus I'm mostly at the beach, and not glued to a computer screen like when I'm at home.

from 0-100% how sure are you that crywolf is scum?
would you vote anyone else for not voting for 5 days?

[dahill1]

Now, I have noticed you haven't said much either. You showed up. Said you read, and then had nothing what so ever to say about this game. Found it odd then and I still find it odd.

i, personally, find it odd that you are attacking archon for virtually the same exact thing you did

[dahill1]

@gorrad: that's some serious outguessing the mod right there. how do we know that shanba isn't trying to break the meta with this game?

[dahill1]

dahill, is your case on her focused on the fact that she suggested lynching her partner? Having seen Gorrad and MBF's discussion on the metaphysics of neighbors, does that change your mind at all? I'd also really like to know why RR is voting her (I know he's LA at the moment.)

that is a main point of my case, yes. i did see their comments and i'll respond with a little mod outguessing of my own. shanba is a very competent mod and he likes to break the meta. he also may have put neighbors in

solely for this situation in which we are attempting to outguess him

. just because neighbors have not typically been two towns paired together doesn't mean it can't happen
however, i am becoming a little wary of a crywolf lynch now because i don't like Gorrad's explanation for his vote and Archon's lack of one.
@cay: good luck with your friend!
also another reminder that

I'm going to be V/LA from later this evening until Monday

preview edit:

unvote

since I'll be back before the deadline and I don't want a lynch while I'm gone

[dahill1]

back from V/LA
post coming soon

[dahill1]

sorry didn't get my read in but i 100% will tomorrow
just for some quick skimming: i don't think MBF is a good lynch today just because 1) we may not have enough time to get enough votes and 2) there are much scummier candidates
examples: Archon for this post:

My PM says I am neighbors with crywolf. Even though I think I was already voting for crywolf, I just wanted to make sure I was (guess I was to lazy to look back a couple of posts.) Just another reason to keep my vote.

Of course, if we lynch crywolf, and she turns up town that would look bad for me... But then again, if I were scum, why would I be pointing this out? Why am I even continuing this post in the first place? I baffle myself.

among others

and Gorrad for his really crappy reasoning in wanting to vote for cayke/izzy

[dahill1]

Alright as promised..
We'll start with

Gorrad

: Was hypocritical towards Haterade in the beginning but that could just be me finding hypocrisy scummy as others didn't seem to care that much. Other points to note include pointing out his meta on how he active-lurks day one. However, as much as I hate people doing this I do remember him pretty much doing this same exact thing, as town, in a previous game so I'm considering it a nulltell. Then "pegs [crywolf] as a mafia mason if anything" but soon goes to unvote and vote for karne with seemingly no mention of him between those posts. Correct me if I'm wrong Gorrad, but you said that Archon and Crywolf being neighbors made them lose the benefit of the doubt, right? If that's the case, then there is no basis for that loss besides a simple meta.

Archon

: What really bothers me was how sure he was that Crywolf was scum even before he heard and blindly followed Gorrad's assumption that one of the neighbors must be scum. this post:

Vote crywolf

for not voting for... *checks calendar* 5 days.
After getting so many votes, just disapearing is the easiest way to not deal with questions. It also definatley shows that he is scum.

was 3 days before Gorrad mentioned the meta. Then claims to be (obviously) crywolf's masonbuddy, but still wants to lynch her. Goes on to defend himself with some chockfull o' WIFOM arguments and literally asks Gorrad what his role is. Gorrad shoulda known better then to answer that though. Archon, do you think Gorrad is scum? If not, then there is virtually no reason why you would want to know his role in this situation.

Overall, I don't like how some people are fixated that one of Izzy/Archon has to be scum. On the other hand, both Archon and Izzy/crywolf are pretty insistent on lynching each other as well which is strange. However based on my post last night, I doubt a Gorrad lynch can be mustered up in time and plus I think Archon is scummier out of the two for his inconsistent play.

vote Archon

[dahill1]

mod: still on semi-V/LA

[dahill1]

I refuse to confirm/condemn someone just based on flavor

[dahill1]

Mod needs to update the page one list. Sorry, Izzy, I forgot you replaced.

Vote: DizzyIzzy

.

1. How do you know flavor is internally consistant if you're protown?
2. You are NOT, I believe, confirmed duck. Neighbor, aye, but not duck.
3. You're a member of a neighbor pair, the dead member being town.
4. I have an innate suspicion of anyone who claims themselves to be confirmed on such shallow evidence.

These are not all points meant for you to address. They're simply points against you, in addition to points against CW D1, which make you totally vote-worthy.

I can agree to all of these reasons except for, and especially, the third one. Archon flipping town means NOTHING in relation to Dizzy's role whatsoever. If we followed a meta every time we played mafia, then we would be nowhere (and the game wouldn't be fun anyways).

Anyways I'll probably decide where to put my vote tomorrow, just got back from vacation

[dahill1]

i was thinking of voting for Gorrad at first this day, but Dizzy's proclamation of being confirmed town bothers me, so I want her to elaborate. Dizzy can you explain more on how you are "confirmed"?

[dahill1]

The fact that she knew the townie flavor in advance. We've been over this.

but couldn't scum have been provided with this? it isn't uncommon for mods to include fake claims/flavor for scum, especially in theme games. this case seems to be clearing based on a conditional action which was based off of flavor again. as i said before, i'm not gonna be clearing anyone because of that

[dahill1]

We were neighbors, not masons. Meaning, specifically, that we do not know each others alignements. To me, since he's not confirmed in any way, the fact that he's a mason with me is irrelevent when analysing his play.

However, this statement is much different than Crywolf's, who basically wanted to lynch him because he was her neighbor.

[dahill1]

We were neighbors, not masons. Meaning, specifically, that we do not know each others alignements. To me, since he's not confirmed in any way, the fact that he's a mason with me is irrelevent when analysing his play.

However, this statement is much different than Crywolf's, who basically wanted to lynch him because he was her neighbor.

I am not Cayke. Based on my reading of the game, I believe this may have been influenced by Gorrad's insistence that it means that one of us must be scum, that several people seemed to have focused on.

while it may be true that you're not cayke, i can never truly know which one of the motives was meant. she could have been influenced by gorrad, but it also could have been scum trying to bandwagon on an easy lynch

Assuming I'm town (from yoru perspective, sinc eI know I'm town already, obviously), is that not an ideal outcome for scum-Gorrad, getting two townie lynches in during the first two days with the in-built excuse that the mod is breaking the meta?

well yes, but that is all assuming

[dahill1]

What else can I say to that other than we are not scum?

well saying things like that and "i'm town" aren't helping, that's for sure.

[dahill1]

What else can I say to that other than we are not scum?

well saying things like that and "i'm town" aren't helping, that's for sure.

why is it hurting?

well i never said they were hurting but it is certainly anti-town if someone goes around the whole game saying "i'm town i'm town". not saying izzy is following that exact example, but scumhunting and defending is better than pointing out why you're confirmed based on flavor

[dahill1]

Okay, I've gone through the thread and have lots of notes. It's mainly just summaries of all the posts, so I won't clutter the thread.

Why I think Izzy is scum:
Crywolf instantly tried to get Archon, her neighbor, lynched
Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs
Izzy is a "neighbor", which are more likely than masons to have at least one scum, and the other neighbor is dead
Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Mainly, there is a lot of evidence against Izzy from my perspective, and little reason not to believe she is scum. TSQ said it all very well, and I pretty much agree with everything he has said. However, half of the evidence is Meta, and the other half is sketchy. I know it's not the best case against somebody, and I have other suspicions I want to follow up on. I need to do a bit more review.

unvote vote MBF

well this post is just one contradicting mess. you go from saying there is a lot of evidence and little doubt that Izzy isn't scum...to saying that your case is sketchy and half of it is meta/flavor. at least you're right on that part because your case is pretty weak. first point:

Crywolf instantly tried to get Archon, her neighbor, lynched

Ok I can agree on that

Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs

This accusation has no basis at all and is pure and simple trying to outguess the mod.

Izzy is a "neighbor", which are more likely than masons to have at least one scum, and the other neighbor is dead

same as I just said above. there's no way we can know for sure so this means nothing

Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Ok I can kind of agree to this one too.

However overall, you supply a case on why she is most definitely scum, but you seem to be doubting it yourself? this, to me, just looks like wishy washy scum who wants to lynch izzy but not take the blame for it

[dahill1]

i like how MBF switches his suspicion to someone else once he sees that his case doesn't hold any ground

[dahill1]

Also, Dahill, how would you expect a pro-town player to react to having their case proven wrong? Just curious.

I never saw where he admitted to it being wrong. Just him saying he'll "compromise" with a Scot lynch

[dahill1]

i wouldn't mind a MBF claim

[dahill1]

i don't understand why you would continue to push a case that you knew was BS..
also I don't really get your case on scotmany. you said he provided a reasonable explanation for each point, but you still wish to lynch him. doesn't that make it just gut? also for the record, i'm not voting you because you're not useful. and you should claim in your next post i see no reason why you'd need to hear for others before claiming

[dahill1]

that's true getting others' opinions are useful in getting information, but not combined with claiming. why would you need others' opinions before claiming? i'm not asking you to claim for the sake of time but you can't fakeclaim

[dahill1]

Well applying your own meta to others obviously won't work
For example, I actually prefer being vanilla rather than scum

[dahill1]

i was on board for an izzy lynch until MBF posted that ridiculous case and voted for her, and he hasn't been much better since then.

[dahill1]

In regards to dahill, you say that you were "on board for an izzy lynch until MBF posted that ridiculous case and voted for her, and he hasn't been much better since then." Do you really believe that? First of all you AGREED with half of the "ridiculous case" in question. Another part was flavor-related that I have since retracted. The other was in regards to the neighbor thing, which I still think is important, even though others disagree. Also, do you really think I "haven't been much better since"? Seriously? It's a bit soul-crushing that I would start putting lots of effort into the game, and you act like it's no big deal.

yes i agreed to part of the case, but the other part regarding flavor and the neighbor meta was what got me. even more so that you admitted to not even buying it yourself afterwards. by "much better", i meant in terms of townieness if that is even a word. obviously, you've put effort into this game so i'm not accusing you of not doing so. however, your recent attempt to get us to lynch gorrad or izzy instead of you? classic scum move. i can understand you wanting to lynch izzy but didn't you just mention how you don't have a read on gorrad yet? also, your defense for not lynching you is you basically saying "if you lynch me it's bad because then you will have no leads on scum because i'm town". i have seen this countless times by pleading scum before a lynch. of course we're not just gonna take your word that you're town and lynching you will harm the town

[dahill1]

i can understand you wanting to lynch izzy but didn't you just mention how you don't have a read on gorrad yet?

Well, obviously *I* would be on the side pushing for Izzy's lynch.

ok i agree...but you never answered the part of my question regarding Gorrad. also I don't like the recent circle-jerking between Gorrad and MBF

It's interesting to note that the two people you believe to be town, dahill and shea, are both suspicious of Izzy, and that you do not include Izzy as one of the people you believe to be town.

That doesn't make sense. If TSQ and I are suspicious of Izzy and scot thinks we're town..then how would that make him think that Izzy is town as well?

I'd also like to hear from Raging Rabbit and CKD/anyone else who hasn't posted in a while

[dahill1]

I'm not sure what question you're talking about. If you're looking for my opinion on Gorrad, it's here.

I was talking about this post:

something that I noticed is that almost ALL of you who suspect Gorrad think "I bet MBF's scum with Gorrad". Likewise for those of you who suspect Izzy. Wouldn't it be better to lynch one of them, rather than me?

In which you support a Gorrad or Izzy lynch over yourself. So my question was didn't you (in that post you just linked to) say you had a neutral reading on Gorrad? If so, why would you call for his lynch along with one of the players who you are sure is scum.

[dahill1]

i would really like to hear from RR to see if this lynch will is going to happen or not

[dahill1]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

[dahill1]

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\

When? After I'm dead?

I meant for today because depending on your alignment the list could change

lynch order preference at the moment:
MBF
Izzy (although it is slightly rising, will explain later)\
Gorrad

Are MBF and I both bussing one partner and not bussing the other, then?

It's quite possible, yes.

Regarding my comment on Izzy earlier (how she was rising in scumminess), it's because her recent posts which are contentless excepting "lynch mbf or lynch gorrad". i haven't seen much scumhunting from her yet, and i'd like to hear her opinions on some of the other players in the game.

[dahill1]

^6 scot

If anything, I think this reaffirms my suspicions of MBF
i'll respond to his recent post soon

[dahill1]

Word? Don't you know about the bird? Well, everyone knows that the bird is a word.

Aaaaaaand enough of that froggy bull (GET IT? IT'S A PUN!).

FoS: MBF

for being a traitor to one of your kin.

On the other hand, Michigan is an land populated entirely by criminals, as everyone knows, and criminals are used to not being trusted, as CW is not trusted by you, so not only can he not choose the wine in front of you, but your suspicion of him is founded on solid evidence.

UnFoS

.

TSQ is probably town by virtue of being totally unhelpful. He's like Flameaxe that way.

is this just me or is Gorrad totally letting MBF that he is a traitor in his very first post of the game?

[dahill1]

EBWOP: "totally letting MBF know"

[dahill1]

dahill is possibly scum. I like the way he thinks things out, but I don't like the reasons he gave for voting me (IE "I agree with half of MBF's posts, but he looks wishy-washy"). I also don't like how he's picked the three easiest targets as his fantasy scumteam draft and then uses bad logic to make it work (IE "The scum are bussing one partner and attacking the other")

To start, those are not the reasons I gave for voting you. Also, agreeing with half of someone's posts doesn't mean I think they're are town. Next, you say I'm using the three "easiest targets" as my suspicions. Well..they're "easy" targets because they're all scummy!! Yes, Gorrad was an easy target and he also was scum. That logic that you said I used was actually a quote from him which I said could have been a possibility but in no way did I use it as my case.

[dahill1]

Ditto

Izzy did push some for Gorrad yesterday but he was a traitor so it's possible that Izzy thought he was an easy lynch

[dahill1]

And the reason for Gorrad's Izzy tunnel is what, exactly?

pre-bussing possibly
i'm rereading Gorrad at the moment to see if he possibly crumbed traitor to anyone else.

[dahill1]

If you think about from a traitors POV, it's a bold move but has a large benefit
Gorrad pushes hard for a mafia lynch all game and when it finally goes through he gets town points
That night scum try to kill off Gorrad and end up recruiting him

I'm not saying this is the most likely scenario but it is plausible
The only reason I'm still focused on Izzy was the scummy behvior D1 which I can't seem to shake

[dahill1]

What makes you think the scum can recruit Gorrad dahill? Not every traitor is able to be recruited.

I've always assumed that was the norm if a traitor was in the game that they are able to be recruited by the mafia

[dahill1]

the wiki is pretty outdated IMO, I'll go look up some examples of recruited traitors now

[dahill1]

gah sorry
i am currently rereading gorrad and will post any findings of interest soon

[dahill1]

see: previous comment regarding wiki

also regarding the traitor meta, this really sucks because i KNOW i've seen games with the scum-recruit-traitor-by-killing mechanic before but i am horrible at finding things like this

[dahill1]

thanks for the link

if i recall correctly i haven't been in a game with a traitor in it, but my assumption was just based on from other games i had seen in passing. also, debating whether my intentions in finding gorrad's traitor crumb were pro-town or not is useless due to the many many factors involved. did scum even know there was a traitor? did the traitor know the scum? and so on and so forth..

as for izzy, i'm just doubting myself because i really didn't like crywolf's day 1 play even though izzy herself has been better. on that note, i will try to stop tunneling as much and look into others.

thoughts on others:
MacavityLock - I am getting a pretty good town reading on him based on his play so far. i agreed with most of his cases/points on days 1 and 2 and he does a good job of just elaborating himself in general. Hasn't been posting much lately, but none of us have really so that's pretty much a nulltell for everyone at this point in the game.

Citizen Karne - I dislike the whole FoS instead of voting thing but that's just personal preference. I did find it kinda weird that he broke his own rule and voted straight out early on yesterday. i think his most recent "slip" comment towards me weak, but I'm probably biased. One post of interest was his Post 225 when he answered my question directed towards Crywolf. This may not seem like much at first, but the more I think about it, the more it gets at me. For reference, I was asking her why should we want to lynch Archon/Haterade if she had a nulltell on him at the time. CK blatantly came up with an explanation for why she would have said that which stuck out to me as feeding her an answer. I realize that this is situational but it really bothered me.

Raging Rabbit - Probably the scummiest out of the remaining players at the moment. He really needs to contribute more and as opposed to the only recent influx of lurking, he has been lurking all game. I never did like the scot case which ended up boiling down to "flying under the radar and not giving a case on gorrad" both of which were false. RR then mentions how Scot could be doing this same kind of tunneling on MBF-town, and

in the same post

calls Gorrad and MBF scum. So scot was bussing

both

(assuming there are 3 total) of his scumbuddies, huh? This post in general is pretty wishy-washy

Curiouskarmadog - I think we played together in Mafia 75 (?), in which you were town. IIRC, you were pushing very adamantly for your cases which I'm not seeing as much in this game. He's been focused a lot on Citizen Karne so far this game but I don't know what to make of it what. I mostly agree with his above post and I do think that him kickstarting this game back into motion gives him some pro-town points. Still mostly undetermined

@CK and ckd: I'd like to see some games of you, if any, as scum because you guys are the two I have the most neutral reads on at the moment. Thanks in advance

Still working on reading through Gorrad's posts so my next post should contain that and also a vote while I sort out my thoughts

[dahill1]

Some points of interest on Gorrad:
-Towards the beginning vote Crywolf on weak reasoning and immediately unvotes in the next post
- Only mention of Raging Rabbit in the entire game was this:

Raging Rabbit - Has made 10 posts all game.

FoS: RR.

- Also had some weird thing when he questioned CKD for saying email instead of PM. Just felt weird to me like calling out someone on a weak "slip" just for the sake of calling them out.

Also: dahill, you say your next vote will contain a vote. Do you have any comment regarding whether or not we might be in LYLO right now?

Basically what scot said below: either way lynching is probably the best option today. No lynch in LYLO just gives mafia a free kill. And if it's not LYLO and we still no lynch that would significantly hurt the town I'm guessing. Plus, I am getting more and more confident in RRscum. No lynch would be the most cautious move, but that's only if we indeed are in LYLO. At the moment, I think it is more likely based on the meta of mini's that we are in LYLO, but RR lynch is the best move imo.

That being said,

vote Raging Rabbit

based on my previous post

[dahill1]

none here

[dahill1]

Posting from iPhone
Still want RR input
@izzy: yes but RR is the scummiest out of those 3 (RR, ckd, ML)

[dahill1]

@CKD: lol "false"? i know you've heard of meta-ing before. i was looking for games you have been in as scum which would obviously help me to see your playstyle as scum and compare to this one. as for why i didn't look in your profile/whatnot, i'm lazy.

[dahill1]

[quote=dahill1"]@CK and ckd: I'd like to see some games of you, if any, as scum[/quote]

[dahill1]

bah

@CK and ckd: I'd like to see some games of you, if any, as scum

[dahill1]

greater sample size

[dahill1]

ckd, i'm currently skimming through some of your games as scum (peril in panama, nice shot, thespival, 12 angry men, etc.)
i really don't see what the big deal about this. of course i would want more games than just one, even if it was an extremely relevant one, to compare playstyles.

[dahill1]

the bolded part of your quote is EXACTLY MY POINT.

1)

please explain to me why dahill was asking for "some" games after I posted a game.

2)

If he saw my game like he is indicating, why isnt he asking to see "more" scum games.

3)

He was not asking for MORE games...he was asking for SOME games...he only asked for MORE games after I started making a big deal out of the post.

1) Would you honestly meta someone with only 1 other game to on by?

2) I'm not asking for other games...really?? this is turning into a fucking semantics debate

3) see above statement regarding semantics. this is completely blown out of proportion

sorry if this post came out jumbled i'll explain it if it doesnt make sense tomorrow when i'm in the right state of mind

[dahill1]

i was on a looong bike ride today so i'll make a post later tonight after reading more

[dahill1]

ok this has gotten so fucking blown out of scale and confusing that i'm having to reread my own posts

for CKD, to answer your immediate question yes I did read through the original game you linked. in all honesty, i only did a brief skim when you first linked to it but revisited it and read through again when i was reading through the other games as well. this second reread was all around the time of Post 835. I'm going to give a brief runthrough of what has happened (from my view obviously) as to help others and myself see this a little more clearly. Ckd please tell me if you think this is biased or not and if so the points you disagree with

- Ckd posts a link to a game in which he is scum and there is a traitor.
- Dahill asks Ckd and CK for "some games of [them] as scum".
- Ckd says Dahill is asking for games simply so it looks like he is scumhunting but not actually doing anything. Ckd wonders why Dahill would ask for scum games after Ckd posted one already.
- Dahill says that he wanted some games because one game is not enough in finding a meta.
- Ckd votes Dahill for asking for "some games" not "more games" and for pseudo-scumhunting

Now some questions for ckd: What made you more sure of placing your vote on me then you were earlier when you had accused me? If I said, "Ckd and CK please post more games of yourselves at scum", would that make sense in context? Also, if I had posted that would you still find me suspicious?

To reiterate, I said I wanted "some games" of them as scum because well...I WANTED TO SEE GAMES OF THEM AS SCUM! I realize that Ckd already posted one but that is not enough as I said before. Another quick question that I just thought of for Ckd: I recall that Adel asks for previous games of his fellow players (both as town and scum) in most (if not all) of his games. Is this scummy? I still am having trouble seeing what ckd sees here and I'm starting to think that he's just continuing to push this BS case because he doesn't want to be wrong.

Large FoS: Ckd

, although I do still think that Raging Rabbit is a better lynch for today. We really need a post or replacement from him soon.

[dahill1]

i'm still here as well
same comments regarding CK and RR as before

[dahill1]

CK who do you think is scum at the moment?

[dahill1]

I think you need to replace Raging Rabbit. We're not posting because we need to hear from him, and he said he'd post in the next few days on Tuesday. He;'s had plenty of time. Repalce him, so we can get on with the game.

This. I'm fairly sure we're all here but just waiting on him

[dahill1]

It looks like this game has been going in circles.

I'm really more used to the traitor that gets recruited if the scum try to kill him. I modded one game that used that variant (Relative Chaos) and played in another (Mafia 88). I've never see the other sort of traitor in a game.

I have a few

questions for everyone

to help me get up to speed fast. Answers would be appreciated. "Your questions are scummy, just reread the whole game" will be ignored.

1) Who do you think is scum? Name at least two people. Briefly, why?
2) Did any of the role reveals surprise you? Whose? Briefly, why?
3) Any events that you think are extra-important for me to read?

thanks for replacing xyl
1) Right now I'd the two people that have stuck out the most to me as scum would be you (Raging Rabbit) and curiouskarmadog. You/RR because he was very wishy-washy in his "scumhunting" and pretty much wagonned onto the main suspects at the time. also he lurked through the entire game while (to my knowledge) was posting in other games. Second would be CKD for his completely bullshit case on me. although i may be somewhat biased, i think that others can agree that it was a long stretch. also, most recently (see his latest post) he unvoted and started to "see where i was coming from" once the pressure got on him and people disagreed with the case. bah that wasn't that brief, sorry.

2) The role reveal that surprised me the most was definitely mikeburnfire as I was sure he was scum. Mainly, he was pretty much back-and-forth buddying with Gorrad the entire game and once Gorrad was revealed to be a traitor that had done it for me, among other scummy things (read previous posts for reference).

3) Scotmany being pretty much confirmed as town (pg. 30 or so), Gorrad flipping traitor (same page), Back-and-forth between Crywolf and Archon once they were revealed to be masons together (Late middle of Day 1 or so)

[dahill1]

i see no harm in answering the questions but xyl really should reread

[dahill1]

@Ckd - I've already stated why I think Point 1 isn't scummy so I won't go over that again.
As for 2) I gave my thoughts on Izzy already and I actually think I've become less suspicious of her due to these recent events. For 3) that's almost everybody in the game at this point besides you and Xyl (RR), and what RR did before he stopped posting

was

scummy so I don't see how this is a point against me really.

[dahill1]

Everyone thinks I should read the game, I get that. I also get that people think RR was scummy (for lurking... sounds justified)

That's definitely not the only reason I thought he was scummy

[dahill1]

Xyl please format your thoughts/whatever into one post instead of short separate ones

[dahill1]

Xyl please format your thoughts/whatever into one post instead of short separate ones

Sure, would you like that post one minute before the deadline or one minute after?

it doesn't need to be a giant wall of text, but from the looks of all the above you just posted that could have been one decently sized post

anyways, back on topic..I'm gonna give Xyl the benefit of the doubt here and say: Just answer the questions, people. He seems to be rereading and answering them can be of no harm, only helping us. Xyl, what's your opinion on scot at the moment, alignment-wise?

[dahill1]

Okay, confession time #2.

Question 2 in my list of three questions ("Did any of the role reveals surprise you?") was a ringer of sorts. I didn't ask it to learn the answer, I asked it to see who would answer it at all. It's something scum would have to lie about, but it a rare enough question that scum wouldn't know what the "right answer" should be. I was hoping that scum would be afraid of the question and dodge answering it.

On that basis, curiouskarmadog (who answered question #1 but skipped #2 and #3) and DizzyIzzy (who is refusing to answer my questions at all) look pretty bad. I'll concentrate my read on them.

That's a pretty big assumption to make IMO. There were some pretty obvious answers to that question so scum don't have any reason to avoid it really.

[dahill1]

Ckd, it appears that I'm your top scum candidate at the moment..but you're not voting for me. In fact, you recently just unvoted me. Any reason for that?

[dahill1]

Izzy: Yes, he should read the game and it looks like he is, but:

I'm not refusing to answer them, I'm just not doing it until he's read the game.

And how is that any less of a delay tactic than anything Xyl is doing?

[dahill1]

Posting from iPod so sorry if I'm brief.

@xyl: I did recently say I've started to become less suspicious of izzy but that was before the whole her refusing to vote thing. Her strategy is way more hurtful than helpful. I'd put her as a third on my scum list behind ckd atm. I can elaborate more once I get to a computer if you want me to

[dahill1]

Quote pyramid hacked together for ease of reading. I didn't change any content, I promise.

curiouskarmadog - Behaviour consistent with past experience of CKD town play. Probable town.

Izzy, could you elaborate on your read on CKD here?

My past experience with CKD is that he's rather prone to making questionable judgments and drawing illogical conclusions when town while gettign tunnelled on issues that are of minor importance at best. I don't see his play in this game as being inconsistent with that.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a clear scumtell from Izzy. While the "illogical conclusions and tunneling" read on ckd is totally reasonable right now based on his interactions with dahill, it wasn't when Izzy posted her quick reads on everybody on day 2. I double-checked, and I don't see anything from ckd on days 1 or 2 that would fit. Therefore, it seems obvious to me that Izzy was making stuff up then and tried to find something to say now that would fit when Xyl asked about it. I don't know if this scumtell has a name, but I'm going to call it "backfill". And Izzy backfilled.

Vote: Izzy

P.S. Thanks Shanba.

This is an excellent catch. Dizzy, explanation?

[dahill1]

Many things are occurring at once.

I should be active by next week. Sorry, last week of high school is a lot more difficult and time-consuming than I thought it would be.

QFT

[dahill1]

Dahill, another question for you (thought I asked this already, but don’t see it)..you asked CK and I for games….CK only said he has not been scum in any games…does that mean you didn’t want him to post any other games?...I never saw I follow up to that..why?

I generally don't really read games of people as town if I'm meta-ing them because there is no universal town-tell, but there are some common ones as scum. Play as town can fluctuate a lot from game to game, but scum play still has the basic concepts (keep scumbuddies alive, try and hop on easy lynches, etc.)

[dahill1]

Also, as it stand I'm still fine with lynching RR/Xyl

Mod: Votecount?

[dahill1]

Dizzy and scot are partially role-confirmed.

Wait...what?
This is like the opposite of Gorrad's theory except just as scummy. I can understand Scot, but to me Izzy is in no way confirmed or partially-confirmed.

[dahill1]

Dizzy and scot are partially role-confirmed.

Wait...what?
This is like the opposite of Gorrad's theory except just as scummy. I can understand Scot, but to me Izzy is in no way confirmed or partially-confirmed.

Hmmm.

Okay, I'll give you the point on neighbors/unconfirmed not really being role-confirmed. (I've been seeing more put-in-masons-but-make-them-unconfirmed lately, so I don't think that they're more likely to have a scum.)

crywolf's behavior toward archon really doesn't feel like a scum neighbor. If you were a scum neighbor, would you really want to press the idea that one of you has to be scum and get your town neighbor lynched? That seems like it would get you lynched next with high probability.

It's always possible cayke did it for the WIFOM, or just didn't think through what would happen, but ... nah. It doesn't feel right.

or the possibility that crywolf was just bad scum

[dahill1]

I think the point scot is trying to make is: you're being extremely hypocritical

[dahill1]

I think the point scot is trying to make is: you're being extremely hypocritical

No, being hypocritical would be if I said rr's lurking wasn't scummy.

But you are attacking someone for something that Raging Rabbit, you for all intensive purposes, had done.

[dahill1]

I'm going to be gone for pretty much all this summer starting about this Wednesday.
I really like this game so in the unlikely chance it's still going I'll gladly replace back in, but for now I need a replacement.

Sorry

I should have some access possibly this weekend but after that nothing.

[dahill1]

Thanks for replacing CDB!

Fades off into the mist...

[dahill1]

great game shanba thanks for modding

finally, a game in which i actually did well as scum. my last two games were trainwrecks but i think i pulled it off this one. thanks for replacing me CDB, i owe you one once the summer's over.

[dahill1]

also, my perfect scum record lives on

booya