Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[Korts]

Hah!

vote: Rogue Shenanigans

For leading us down the wrong path. I call shenanigans!

[Korts]

Vote: Korts

Gut feeling for now based on his first reaction.

Gut feelings are generally subconsciously recognized tells. Can you elaborate on this, or were you just jumping on the biggest wagon?

Precisely. It's printed right up there. And you missed it. The only way how you could have missed it is if you didn't read it. And that's scummy.
Besides, I find it very scummy that you posted without knowing the exact details.

Then the rolefishing thing, it's not a defence when you say 'it isn't fishing'. Please say why you don't see it as fishing.

I agree that Occam was lightly fishing and his defense was worthless, but reading the first quoted paragraph, that is a big fallacy there. You say that it is scummy not to have read properly?

[Korts]

Yes, and RS counterclaimed

[Korts]

I can't particularly relate to this discussion on rolefishing, which I don't think Occam was doing to an extent harmful to town anyway; BSG however does have a point about Occam voting him only after he found some support in raider and me.

I still would like our Prom King to answer when he gets back to the game, though.

[Korts]

The reason for my Korts vote was based on his immediate reaction to Rogue's choosing of our path.
Personally, I don't think a mafia member would be dumb enough to choose our path - putting himself in the spotlight right off the bat.

It wasn't a serious vote. First votes usually aren't. And I wanted to make mine game-related. Any reason you thought it was serious?

[Korts]

EBWOP: also, why would it be "dumb" for mafia to put themselves in the spotlight? For that matter, why would it be dumb for them to choose our path? For all we know, they might have surplus information concerning the particular paths.

[Korts]

My path chosing is a total null tell in every respect. The mod himself stated its lack of importance. I mearly saw the game had started first.

Who are you defending yourself against? Was anyone seriously debating whether you were scummy for making that choice?

[Korts]

Okay. I thought you misinterpreted me as attacking you.

[Korts]

@Monkeyman: You seem to be confusing me with Rogue Shenanigans. Maybe.

I'm sorry I mispoke. Defending the move is just as bad as doing it, if not more so. Like Prom King said, it's unlikely scum would actully choose a path this early, but having someone defend the tactics worries me.

As the mod clearly stated, the choice had pretty much no bearing on the game.

[Korts]

I can join a Lunar wagon.

unvote, vote: Lunar_Tick

However, I would still like Prom King to answer my questions when he's on.

[Korts]

Prom King, I asked you to answer my questions just one post before yours. Why ignore me? Also, what is scummy about BSG calling you out on a fallacy?

[Korts]

Arrrgh. I hate the phrase "the random voting stage is over" so very much. Why do you think it is over, raider? What defines "random voting stage"? Where is the distinction between "random voting stage" and non-"random voting stage"? Please note that these questions have no bearing at all on the game itself and are purely posed simply to make people realize that such statements of a seperate hypothetical "random" stage are stupid.

[Korts]

I have to admit, I'm suddenly a little lost here. I'll need to try re-reading, but right now I'm too drowsy.

[Korts]

I know why I'm voting for LT, for one.

[Korts]

FYI Occam here is the reason I jumped on the Lunar wagon. He slipped, citing knowledge that the town doesn't have.

@Monkeyman: Defending the move is just as bad as doing it, if not more so. Like Prom King said, it's unlikely scum would actully choose a path this early, but having someone defend the tactics worries me.

Your whole post and vote assumes that the choice has any kind of bearing on the game. You are very far from being sure of your claims, at least not close enough to make any kind of conclusion and subsequently vote on it. And if you are sure of your claims (and it seems that you are), then you are highly suspicious.

Also I don't like the way you use the word "tactics" in your post, when there was clearly no under-hand mafia scheme but rather a random choice.

You're not in a position to say what I'm able to come to a conclusion on and vote for. All I need to vote is to think that you are more guilty than anyone else. And I clearly do. The only way you could know if there was a scheme or if it was random choice is if you were scum, a townie would not know the difference.

[Korts]

DAMN YOU /QUOTE TAG

Anyway, Occam is doing a big show of defending LT. Sucking up to town, or do you not want your precious scumteam violated? You can be honest with me.

[Korts]

False dilemma? Neither, actually, just trying to prevent a mislynch.

And how can you state with such certainty that it would be a mislynch?

unvote, vote: Occam

Anyways, thanks for finally explaining - but it seems you're actually voting him because he used the word tactics... not because he has inside information. How is that a valid reason? Reread the quote you posted and get back to me on that.

Here's the quote again, with fixed tags:

Defending the move is just as bad as doing it, if not more so. Like Prom King said, it's unlikely scum would actully choose a path this early, but having someone defend the tactics worries me.

Your whole post and vote assumes that the choice has any kind of bearing on the game. You are very far from being sure of your claims, at least not close enough to make any kind of conclusion and subsequently vote on it. And if you are sure of your claims (and it seems that you are), then you are highly suspicious.

Also I don't like the way you use the word "tactics" in your post, when there was clearly no under-hand mafia scheme but rather a random choice.

You're not in a position to say what I'm able to come to a conclusion on and vote for. All I need to vote is to think that you are more guilty than anyone else. And I clearly do. The only way you could know if there was a scheme or if it was random choice is if you were scum, a townie would not know the difference.

I went back and reread what they were actually saying, and the quote tags are now correct. So no, I'm not attacking LT for the use of the word "tactics", I am attacking him for stating with seemingly absolute certainty that the choice was clearly random and in no possible way an "under-hand mafia scheme". Defending Rogue with something only Rogue or mafia would know is, IMO, scumlicious.

I like how I'm being called scummy for defending someone - defending someone is NOT a scumtell

Defending someone for no clear reason is, on the other hand. Why do you assume LT wouldn't want to defend

himself

?

A. I I were scum the LAST THING I would be trying to do would be steering the town AWAY from a mislynch.

Easy on the wine there, fella. As a friendly point of advice, let me tell you this: steer clear from "if I were scum" arguments.

B. I'm not sure it's a mislynch. I just see no evidence that it will be a good lynch.

BACKTRACK ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

no seriously, I quoted you a little further up. You said, very clearly, that the LT lynch would be a mislynch.

C. Asking me to PROVE that LT is town is the same as asking someone to PROVE that they aren't scum (then using the fact that they CAN'T as evidence that they ARE scum, or in this case, the fact that I CAN'T prove that he's town as evidence that he's scum):

Oh yes; but while the wiki article shows how it's a fallacy to assume someone's scum if they can't be proven to be town, here no-one assumed such a thing; if you state that someone would be a mislynch, it's a sound logical conclusion to ask why you think that.

freeko is scummy for giving words into Occam's mouth. Possible scumbuddy offering a believable claim.

[Korts]

I'm not really sure I believe the explanation of mislynch=bad lynch in his vocabulary. Mis- is associated with missing (i.e. not scum), IMO.

And by the way, freeko, I just noticed this:

Ok, you still did not answer my question. Are you and LT linked in this game somehow?

Nice fishing for masons here. Noted. You're right, actually; Occam isn't half as scummy as you just know became.

unvote, vote: freeko

[Korts]

EBWOP:

you just now became

[Korts]

Did you read the part where I explained my use of the word, or no?

I read it after freeko pointed it out, and I'm not sure I believe it. It does change my perspective a little, though.

Not to be a dick but this is really just stupid. As is assuming that because I said mislynch, I KNOW that it's going to be a mislynch. God, you people are really being thick

Hum. Really, let's take this point by point. Do you, or do you not agree that what LT seemed to be absolutely certain about isn't something that is public knowledge? If you do: do you agree that knowing something not publicly known, especially about the setup, implies scum knowledge? If so: doesn't knowing something scum would know imply that HE IS SCUM? No offense, but you're being the thick one here.

Has he posted since he was attacked? No. And what do you mean NO CLEAR REASON TO DEFEND HIM? THERE'S NO CLEAR REASON TO ATTACK HIM!

That is BS plain and clear. There was no

stated

reason to attack him. Unexplained bandwagons are a very good tool for finding implications of connections, like when you jumped to LT's aid.

Also, why not wait until he posts? If he hasn't posted since he was attacked, he hasn't had a chance to defend himself, which he surely would want to give a shot. By defending him, you're both putting words in his mouth and intimidating people off his wagon; the most likely reason I see for this is that you are scum either trying to buddy up to LTtown, tying yourself to LTtown for later purposes, or simply defending a scumbuddy.

I'll lay off the mislynch thing, because there's nothing new in that discussion, but I don't know if your defense should be believed.

[Korts]

Occam--here's the thing. What LT said, basically, is that there is no chance at all that it

wasn't

a random choice. Sure, chances are that it was, but there is no reason to exclude the possibility of scum motives. And MM specifically said

unlikely

whereas LT excluded a scenario that is entirely possible. Yes it's a minor point, but looking around before that post of LT's there really wasn't anything better to push.

And shouting WIFOM at every hint of it is stupid and won't get you anywhere. Just because something looks like circular logic, there may be clear differences in town and scum motivation if you look closer. So please shut the fuck up for a moment and consider things not just for what they are, but what they could be and how they would make sense. IMO scum are more probably going to slip up on something like LT did.

[Korts]

Rhinox has this under control, it seems. One thing to add:

Which one is it? Is there scum on LT's wagon? Or am I scum now, because I was exploring the possibility of a link between LT and Occam? If you missed a MINOR little detail, I do not have my vote on Occam. Nor did my vote ever get placed on Occam at any point.

This only makes the fishing point more certain, you see; by not having your vote on him, you practically prove the point that you suspect they might be connected town.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-6

freeko - 5 (Korts, Rhinox, MonkeyMan, Sipylus, Occam)
Lunar Tick - 2 (Rogue Shenanigans, Kiro)
BSG - 1 (Prom King)
Rogue Shenanigans - 1 (freeko)
MonkeyMan - 1 (BSG)
Not Voting - Lunar_Tick, Raider

With 12 left, 7 to lynch.

[Korts]

The only reason I can see why someone is defending someone else this early in the game is because they are linked. Masons? Maybe. Lovers? More than likely this is what I think (and why I did not move my vote). Scum? You cannot tell me that it is not worth exploring this possibility.

Here's the thing: you put words into Occam's mouth. You asked him directly whether they were lovers. If you were suspecting him of being scum defending either town or scumpartner, you would ask him why he did it, not give him possible explanations; this is, of course, in addition to the fact that you're giving

two

town PRs if Occam is indeed a lover and you force him to reveal himself. ERGO rolefishing you were.

Also, nice baseless accusations at RS.

[Korts]

Good job on the subtlety there

freeko, your reason for keeping your vote on RS is still nothing more than BS. Is it really just that he based his choice on apparently nothing? Because that doesn't prove anti-town intentions.

[Korts]

Hmm.

FoS Prom King

for that circular argument made in post 50.

unvote korts
vote BSG

Freeko is innocent.

Take it from me... WINK WINK. I KNOW this for sure WINK WINK.

Unvote BSG, Vote Occam

I just see a lot of talking over talking over talking in this first day.

I seem to remember his motives for that vote questioned; yet he never answers anything directed at him, and fails to give reasoning for both of these votes. I get the sense of lurking, opportunistic scum; and with his attempt at stalling the freeko wagon, he's definitely scummy. I get the feeling we got two scum here.

[Korts]

unvote

Guess I'll have to go reread.

[Korts]

Either way, Occam, after this claim, it is bad play to lynch either of them today. That is, of course, if Prom King confirms this, which I assume he will, judging from his earlier reaction to the freeko wagon.

[Korts]

vote: Occam

For revoting freeko. It is not pro-town to lynch either of them today, since they've confirmed each other's claim; and freeko's wincon claim of "being alive on Day 6" seems like a survivor role, which also shouldn't be lynched solely for being a survivor. I also don't like the implication that since your wincon doesn't have anything about Day 6, freeko's can't have either. You say freeko's claim doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons, but you only state one; elaborate please.

[Korts]

And it would be nice if Korts could explain why he thinks it's bad to lynch one of Freeko or Prom King.

If they are masons like they say they are, keeping them alive will mean that the mafia will always have to choose between killing one of them and reducing the number of semi-confirmeds by one and raising the fully confirmeds' number by one, or keeping them both alive and semi-confirmed. Basically, they now serve to draw a NK and create NK-WIFOM.

Well, I can think of one situation I've seen in which one mason knew that his partner was town, while the other didn't know his partner's allignment.

I've been a neighbour/unconfirmed mason before, with my partner being confirmed. I was town, for reference; unconfirmed mason =/= scum.

[Korts]

Kiro, your reply?

[Korts]

Wow.

unvote, vote: MonkeyMan

Old flames returning?

L-1, please claim.

[Korts]

Good find, Rhinox. Someone hammer plz?

[Korts]

It's a character from GWTB

[Korts]

unvote

[Korts]

I think cleric is supposed to be doctor applied to the theme. But on second thought, I can't imagine sheep as clerics.

vote: MonkeyMan

[Korts]

From the mod's comments I'm assuming this has little bearing on the game; also, while we don't know what this does, we can't decide on who to choose.

Let's play it Rogue Shenanigans style.

Watch

[Korts]

I think it was 7 to lynch, but his role only required 6 (regular number -1). When I die tonight, at least promise me you take korts or RS to visit me ASAP. they cant be team players when they run off and make decsicions without our consent.

That's a pretty scummy and short-sighted statement. Since it was stated that it had little to no bearing on the game as of now, and also we don't know anything about what this watching entails, I don't see any point in discussion or democracy. Scum can manipulate town if you want to go through democratic channels; and also the best we could do would be baseless theorizing about what may or may not happen.

I promise to tell you everything I learn tonight regarding this "watching" tomorrow.

[Korts]

Okay. Quick post because it's 4 AM and I'm still wasted; the watch entailed me getting a PM at the end of the night that I've fallen asleep. I also seem to remember Occam going into the forest for a piss, but that maybe I just dreamt it. Basically, paraphrasing, that is all I got.

[Korts]

@Korts, did you have any choices to make at night?

Regarding the watch, no.

[Korts]

Does there? It may simply be a red herring mechanic that serves no other function than flavor.

[Korts]

I thihnk I want to explore if korts is lying here.

vote korts

Its real simple, either he is lying (and we will find out the reason why) , or there truly is no real relevance to the night time watch.

Well yes, it is simple if you look at it that way. But do you really think that if I was lying, I'd cave in from a little pressure?

[Korts]

@Korts
Was there nothing else mentioned besides that?

No. I paraphrased everything I got.

PK, you shouldn't ask power roles to come forward with results. They can claim when they judge it's optimal.

I'm also wondering why mafia killed Occam. If anything, one of the claimed masons would've been a far better target.

And I don't like freeko pushing my lynch based on me having watched. Pray tell, what would it tell you if I flipped scum? I don't see how that would give you more information other than hints at association.

[Korts]

Its more of a check than anything else. and to that extent i think its real simple (and pretty much wifom as well). Either korts is telling the truth and he flips town, or he is not and he is a scum. I am very heavily leaning twoards teh scum side right now. Problem is there is only one way to truly find out.

Huh. It's not like you won't have someone else watching next night to confirm my story.

I really don't like freeko's willingness to lynch me for a "check". For that matter, we should lynch everyone who claims to be town following that logic, because they're either town telling the truth or scum and lying.

[Korts]

Prom king, I want to hear what your role PM says about your association with freeko. You still haven't confirmed his claim.

Korts, why weren't you watching when Occam disappeared last night?

I had no decision in it. I never received any notification of abilities or request for a choice, all I got was a PM at the end of the night containing what I have already paraphrased in my first post of today.

[Korts]

Sorry about the little posting. Last of the exams. Anyway, freeko, what did I do that you don't see as pro-town, other than having watched tonight? I ask because the only case you made against me is "lynch him so I can get a clearer view".

mod:

how recently was Rogue Shenanigans prodded?

This was all irrelevant because the L-1 vote was really the hammer but it just seems as if you unvoted and then when you noticed everyone else wasn't really following suit you reversed your tracks. If you really thought there was even a remote chance of him being a doctor, why revote?

And the second thing is deciding to watch while discussion was ongoing. I find it questionable but I am not necessarily sure I classify it as scummy yet.

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

Second; I didn't see any productive discussion about deciding to watch; nor did I expect to see any such thing considering we didn't know anything about the mechanics tied to watching nor the actual utility. It was basically the same motivation as Rogue Shenanigans' first post; try and prevent the game from stalling due to baseless speculation on a mechanic.

freeko: tell me why the assumption that if I'm scum, I'm absolutely lying about the watch.

[Korts]

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me

Are you saying I should have forseen that?

It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

Explain the plural, please. Other than the watching incident, was there anything else? Also, if you

do

have something else, I expect quotes and interpretations.

[Korts]

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

From the way I read, and I guess I could be reading wrong because I joined late and wasn't there as it transpired, but I was under the impression that the L-1 vote that you cast was actually the hammer vote unbeknownst to you or anyone else. When you removed your vote and then replaced it, it did not matter because he had long been dead. Is that correct?

Oh. That's correct. I thought you were accusing me of purposely placing a hammer.

I'm fine for the moment being to let Rhinox watch tonight. It's not a big responsibility anyway, according to my results.

[Korts]

I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.

[Korts]

Reading that I can on one hand imagine at least one of freeko and PK being scum and killing Occam because they're afraid of an investigation; on the other hand, Occam had already vouched for PK and freeko being town right there and then. I'm interested to see where this takes us.

freeko, did you say that you can't confirm PK's alignment?

[Korts]

For what it's worth raider I was unconfirmed mason with my partner being confirmed in Pick a Player (link in my wiki if interested, I'm too lazy atm), and we were both town, so that point doesn't stand; since this is Jebus' first modded game anyway, we can't try and guess the likeliness of certain roles in a setup of his based on modding meta.

[Korts]

vote: Prom King

Post or perish.

[Korts]

Which is exactly why I think Korts is hiding something.

As I said before, I paraphrased everything I got from watching. If you think I'm hiding something, I wouldn't be particularly uncomfortable with you yourself watching tonight; see if you get more or less than me.

[Korts]

Sigh.

Posting for the sake of posting.

[Korts]

Hi Vi!

I remember not liking Korts

:'(

Also,

unvote

While I have a think about this.

[Korts]

EBWOP:

Vi, just so you know. The caravan reaches the destination town on the start of day 6. That is listed in the game rules.

I saw, but I haven't seen anything that specifically says that anything happens at that point. It's heavily implied, but I don't see anything "in writing".

Rereading now.

Another Lie? Freeko says his role PM has an alternate win condition of making it to the next town, and Vi says his does not. At least one of freeko or Vi are probably scum... I thinking freeko, because scum-Vi could have gotten out of his lynch in a way that wouldn't have made him the obv lynch choice the next day.

Vi's claim makes me think that they're both scum, actually. PK I can easily imagine as having tried a crude gambit (claiming masons with a scumpartner) and pulling freeko with him; freeko's response fits the profile of wary scum going with the plan but ready to bus, and Vi's most recent claim of neighbour covers all bases in case of a lynch of either one of them.

[Korts]

hmmm... good point actually. However, one of the 2 of them are lying, which means at least 1 of them are scum for sure. Freeko seems more likely to be lying to me, and if he's town, we're going to get Vi anyways. Freeko should be lynched first.

Out of the two, freeko is more likely to be scum; but I don't really like how hard you're pushing the notion that one of them is definitely scum. My stance is that it's more probable that both are, but entirely possible that neither are scum. Vi makes a fair point about how you're setting up a Vi (mis?)lynch upon a mislynch of freeko.

unvote, vote: Rhinox

I like how thinly veiled this is getting.

Vote: Rhinox

(L-5)

If he's scum, we lynch Korts-scum for being his partner.
If he's Town, we lynch Korts-scum for feeding his wrongness.

See what I did there?

Hehheh. For a second I thought this was serious and was ready to vote you for attacking me indirectly and without any hint at an implied connection.

Meanwhile freeko's reaction to Rhinox's vote seems overly hostile. I'm not sure what to do with this observation though.

[Korts]

Um. Zero to hundred in one replacement. Awesome. I'll try and catch up after I'm done with some other games.

[Korts]

While BSG's question of what freeko's rolename is is a little weird, freeko's reaction is very unusual and quite scummy. I also don't like the negotiation of one name for another name; it gives me the notion that freeko wanted a pro-town rolename before he'd claim his own to check whether it would be accepted.

From as far as I've gotten in my reread, I'm getting suspicious of raider for hanging out on the periphery of the game and generally being dispensable. So his cameo appearance in this argument is noted.

Fair point.

[Korts]

While BSG's question of what freeko's rolename is is a little weird, freeko's reaction is very unusual and quite scummy. I also don't like the negotiation of one name for another name; it gives me the notion that freeko wanted a pro-town rolename before he'd claim his own to check whether it would be accepted.

What do you think of my reaction to the same?

Vague towntell, since you asked freeko to claim for you, too. I don't know if I would take that risk, were I scum fakeclaiming mason with a buddy. If I were scum in a neighbourhood I would be even less inclined since the neighbour would claim truthfully and I wouldn't want a scum rolename public.

[Korts]

freeko's claim is accurate. (Of course I have to be the sidekick )
Also @freeko: Flavor in theme games is generally not to be looked into too deeply. See previous question regarding this in 390.

Humm. Okay, so this tells us that freeko claimed truthfully or you are both scum. The former still leaves room for one or both of you being scum, though, so I don't see what this little happening proved.

Now that you got what you wanted, BSG, why did you ask for a rolename claim in the first place?

[Korts]

Okay, that's a bit surprising to see.

I haven't read through the big posts completely, but a quick skim is good enough for now. Don't have a lot of time.

I clearly don't agree with my wagon and the speed of it is very implicative. I don't like the late arrivals, especially Rhinox's vote reeks of opportunism. I didn't see you making any point at all regarding me, which is slightly uncharacteristic even if everyone else has already said it before you. Despite your usual verbosity you just jump on my wagon with an "oh yes, Korts is obvscum" comment.

Juls is also fishy. The only comments on me she makes are generalized.

I'm much more comfortable with raider's reaction (although that may be because as of yet he's one of the few not in my lynch mob).

I will read the points against me thoroughly and I'll answer whatever I can.

[Korts]

RS's posts on Page 1 look seriously sketchy to me - the immediate explanation after posting his path choice followed by the bandwagon "random" on Korts. I obviously wasn't there for the post loss, so maybe someone can tell me if that was originally more random than it looks. I'm not sure what to make of 25 either.

There was some downtime on the server where BSG's post with a random vote on me was lost; he "accused" me of being responsible and I'm fairly sure that was the basis of the wagon on me. I don't see how the early wagon on me could be not random.

Korts seems reasonable early on, though he also jumps on the L_T wagon at the first opportunity. And then he claims the world is fogging up in 101, when Occam begins to question said wagon.

The game was slowly stalling for lack of leads; I didn't see any reason not to push an even vaguely scummy wagon.

When Prom King softclaimed, Korts immediately jumped to the conclusion of having found a scumpair. I wish Mafia was that easy; you should know it's not.
Basically everything about Korts's reaction to Prom King + freeko looks opportunistic to me, to save time...

Ok, fair enough. I see where you would percieve my play that way. Here's my thought process for then: Prom King was heavily hinting at a masonship, being blatantly obvious about it. My feeling was that he would outright claim if he wasn't preparing a fakeclaim and leaving some wiggle room for details. Couple that with his level of contribution (non-existent) and his refusal to address points against him and I think my suspicion was well-founded.

Right on the next wagon and driving it to a lynch.

(MonkeyMan wagon)

He was scummy; not only unhelpful but trying to scrape a lynch on Lunar Tick when that wagon was clearly a simple springboard for discussion. I believe he was the best lynch at that point, and there was no case on anyone else that compared to the one on him (claimed masons excepted).

THIS is interesting. Did you seriously think until me and freeko claimed that all the Townies were sheep? Excoos me for being incredulous here. With no sample Townie PM to base your judgment on, this either means your role is Sheep and your role PM has no indication that anyone else in the caravan is human, OR you have no idea who's in the Town because you're not one of them.

I am a sheep and I didn't have anything to imply that not every townie would be that. In fact I don't have anything solid now, either. MM was neutral, and the two of you (Vi, freeko) may still be scum together.

I can fullclaim if the majority of town wants me to, but I wouldn't want to, yet.

And... an L-2 vote to throw on the pile. My, my, mymymy.

The game was stalling pretty fast, and mostly due to PK's inactivity. If you are holding this against me as a major point, you are being way too obvious about this wagon.

The wagon on me: on a reread, Juls and freeko's votes are about equally suspicious, with freeko's claim making him less so, but Rhinox's vote seems more like eager scum trying to get a vote in before it becomes too suspicious, especially since he barely makes a point on me.

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Opportunism is a solid tell.

[Korts]

VI wrote:

Uh-oh. You better duck.

Vi, I think a more important factor in the vote than whether it's third or fourth or second is the circumstances. And speaking only of the most recent Korts wagon I think Rhinox's vote is more opportunistic than Juls'. I'll have to go back and analyse earlier wagons but I'd rather have Rhinox lynched than Juls at this point, especially since he's spent a lot of his recent time backpedaling.

However, also notable is Juls' esplanation in post 444 (dibs on post 666 btw!); she admits to having baited freeko into wagoning, which I'm not sure is a good tactic with a claimed and confirmed neighbour. Granted, freeko's jump was fairly scummy, but it doesn't tell us anything new, because, his role being confirmed, he's bound to act a little lazier.

I get a vaguely pro-town read on raider, not because he's defending me, but because of what he's defending me with: role-based information which I don't think scum would fake to

clear

town. To

lynch

town, much more likely.

(Also, it occurs to me that you people set a sheep up to watch camp last night.)

Hmm. That may be the reason for the vague and pretty much useless information I got. Sheep aren't really observant people.

[Korts]

freeko, I will not claim unless a majority wants me to. Your overeagerness to uncover a possible power role is noted. And why is a sheep claim weak? The mod's flavor hints at at least some of us being sheep; you make a very big show of expressing how my rolename claim is weakass and horsecrap, but you don't bring any points as to why it would be.

As for you wanting me lynched at the beginning of the day, that proves little to nothing, especially considering the grounds on which you wanted me lynched. And I'm not crying on you being on my wagon, I'm saying that your jump was opportunistic to an extent that may or may not be justified by your role being confirmed.

As for why I took the watch last night, I explained it multiple times. Without anything to tell us what this watch would do there wouldn't have been any point in discussing the matter any further, because we didn't know any criteria by which to choose a candidate that can be trusted. To spare the town from drowning in baseless theorizing I decided to choose the only person I know to be town.

I'm getting the increasing notion that freeko's motives aren't pro-town.

[Korts]

But since all of us ITT are scum besides you, what do you have to say about freeko's reasoning for jumping on korts' wagon?

I will asnwer this myself.

I WANT KORTS DEAD. Kthxbye.

For one, you're being boneheaded and scummy all the while. On the other hand, the question was not directed at you. You could, while you're here, answer my points/questions, though.

[Korts]

FFS... (Rhinox likes his shiny new acronym )

Florida Folklore Society? Föderation Freiheitlicher Sozialisten? Fish Finger Sandwich? (I know, I know.)

Unfortunately for you, the defense of "I was testing your reactions" is weak; you commit to being scummy, yet you don't make a case for me to respond to: what did you expect if not to be attacked?

And IMO, the backpedaling accusation is crap.

It has some basis and though the implications are minor from this point, coupled with your vote it's more than sufficient for me to put you over Juls as Suspect no. 1.

So how does your opinion change knowing he's only confirming your flavor role name (sheep) and not your allignment?

As I said it's a weak towntell, because if he were scum, he'd either not claim any truthful role information to defend me, or he'd fake role-based information that

incriminates

me and not something that semi-confirms my claimed rolename.

[Korts]

Ok ok, we get it, but could you address the points/questions I make in post 454? Because right now you're not making any contribution.

Don't have Albert B. Rampage as your idol. Seriously. It may work for him, but it definitely hasn't found you any scum yet.

[Korts]

For fuckssake stop rolefishing. I won't claim unless a majority wants me to, because I'm not telling the scum what I can do. Suffice it to say that I'm a useful role.

You are being jawdroppingly scummy about your fishing and your insistance that you have to know everything.

And when have I ever said that sheep=vanilla? BTW what are you basing your "wolf in sheep's clothing" theory on, other than an insistance that I can't be anything else than scum? For that matter, how do you know there are wolves around, other than from the mod's flavour (which also says there are

sheep

around as well)?

[Korts]

EBWOP: post 469 is at freeko.

Also, props to raider for quoting BSG. Didn't see that post there for some reason.

So Juls, Raider and Korts, could you please state if your role name is mentioned in your PM or not?

well I don't have a conventional rolename. Instead of the standard "you are a <rolename>" I got "you are a sheep."

[Korts]

Ok, so you have 4 legs and go Baaa-aah, or whatever. Why pick the night watch then? You can spare me the high horse crap about the pointless bickering. If you actually are a sheep you would have also known that a sheep really woudnt be able to do much in a night watch scenario now woudnt you?

I didn't have any post restriction etiher; there was nothing to indicate

any fucking thing at all

about what the watch scenario would bring with me or with anyone else on the watch.

[Korts]

Dammit Rhinox! I'll read that tomorrow, I'm tired right now...

[Korts]

Just posting a placeholder here for the meanwhile so I don't weasel out of making a real post after I caught up with my newbie (priorities, priorities).

[Korts]

Well, I toiled through the big Rhinox post and I see nothing in particular to comment on... Nothing particularly made me want to retract my vote on him, either.

Hi, Tony

[Korts]

FUCK

as if reading up wasn't hard enough...

I'm doing my best, Jailbreak comes first and then I'm coming here to post, but sheesh guys.

[Korts]

Ugh. Despite freeko's logic being vaguely non-existent, if I'm looking at it objectively I'm not really sure he'd be so boneheaded as scum. I'd rather ignore him while we lynch Rhinox.

We know, or at least don't have any reason to assume that scum have safe fake names included in their role PM.

Hey look inside information

(Not saying I have any reason to believe all scum are wolves, but then again, I have no reason to believe they aren't)

"umm the last part wasn't inside information at all gods no why would you think that <insertawkwardlaughhere>"

Korts, do you think there is justification behind the wagon that formed on you?

Vi made an acceptable (if not particularly lynchworthy) case. You hopped on immediately, followed by Juls and freeko. Vi had justification; you had none, Juls had little to none, and freeko

is a fucking idiot

has locked on to me and doesn't listen to reason.

This sounds an awful lot like what I am thinking about VI and you

Don't you learn? You better duck.

I didn't read Rhinox 514... Anything worth noting in particular?

[Korts]

Don't take this the wrong way, I will read it, but I'm just tired now and I've spent the last two or three hours catching up in games. I will read it later and see if there's anything to comment on.

[Korts]

Maybe I worded that wrong?

"We Know that scum don't have a fake claim We have nothing to indicate that scum have a fake claim."

In other words, I was assuming that because there was nothing in the rules about safe claims, that scum didn't have any...

While I can see someone assuming such a thing, you know what it is to assume? It is to make an ass out of u and me. And especially since I believe that you are against setup speculation in general, this is a strange thing for you to say.

Is this because you're scum and you have a safe fake name? In my town PM there is nothing to indicate that scum wouldn't have a reason to fish for names..

Ugh. You don't mean to imply that every town PM should contain the same things? And what importance is there in emphasising that your PM is town in particular?

What I am learning is as town, I tend to be more relaxed, arrogant, and cyptic when there are no votes on me, but when I get wagoned, I become a little more stressed, humbled, and straightforward.

That's actually a fairly accurate rundown of my playstyle in general... I'm usually a mildly gambit-oriented player, but if I get pressured for it I tone the gambits down and the analysis up regardless of alignment. So if it was only the change in tone that convinced you it's a nulltell.

(aside - I'm now coming to the realization that the former playstyle may be directly causing the wagon which leads to the latter playstyle, as evidenced by all 3 of my ongoing games)

Haha, yes. Same here. I don't really want to change, though; this playstyle is very effective for starting discussions.

The way she talked about Occam immediately after day began, like she knew for a fact that occam wasn't really dead. I first thought that mafia would know for sure if Occam was really dead or not

This is a good point, actually. Even though you make the point that it would be better for mafia not to hint at Occam not being the target, there'd be an inherent curiosity and frustration boiling inside them if Occam hadn't been the NK target. Speculating about alternative possibilities is one way to vent.

At this point I'm starting to grow more fond of a Juls wagon. Her recent posts have been scummier than before--although I can't put my finger on it yet. Rhinox's points are valid ones as well.

[Korts]

@Korts: Regarding the BS inside information attack, you're using some pretty bad logic there... You're assuming that by saying something hypothetically means that I have inside information and know it to be true. Its no different from players using phrases like "if player A is town", or, "I'm not ready to hammer yet in case its a mislynch". Usually, its not called out as a leak of inside information unless the player leaves out the if either subconsciously or if the player thinks its assumed. (for example, you saying "I can't imagine sheep as docs" is a slip of inside information. )

You were speculating about information that was or could have been given to scum; I don't really see how there would be any basis to that kind of speculation unless you are scum yourself. There is also a difference between speculating on town information and scum information because town (something you are or are pretending to be) would know about some of the information a townie recieves in PM and nothing about what scum get.

Speaking of that comment, I'm just wondering... If you thought that all town were sheep (or had no reason to believe they weren't), what logic did you use to decide that a sheep couldn't be a doc/cleric? What you basically said is "I think all the town are sheep, and I don't think a sheep could be a doc, so I don't think the town even has a doc."

I said this:

I can't imagine sheep as clerics.

Where cleric is a rolename and not a role.

[Korts]

I thought my thorough defense of my actions had something to do with it

[Korts]

Ok, Rhinox, I can see how in context your apparent inside information is less scummy.

also think this issue might be cleared up by BSG explaining how she knows "for a fact" that scum don't have to fish for flavor names, as I think that implies more knowledge of inside information than I have shown...

Yes, but BSG explicitly stated that this was information she got from her role PM, and thus it's not a slip but deliberate. Compare to yours, where you state with relative certainty that scum don't have fakeclaims but don't back it up with any claims of surplus knowledge, implying that you subconsciously know whether scum have fakeclaims or not.

Arguing semantics doesn't change the question... What made you think a sheep couldn't be a cleric, assuming you thought all town roles were sheep (also, assuming we had absolutely no idea what exactly a cleric was in this game)?

Cleric seemed an inherently

human

flavour to me, and that didn't fit the notion that the town is made up of sheep. I assumed that MM was some sort of mafia not knowing that the town is sheep (which I believed it to be).

Of course not... but I can't imagine any town role being "you know that scum don't have to fish for flavor name because..." nor can I even make up a reason for how a town role would know that. I think BSG should be able to explain how she knows that without giving away her role. As far as emphasizing the town part of my role PM, this is just another example of making sure nothing is left to interpretation by leaving anything in implications. I've learned that most of the time when I think something is implied, its not.

I get the feeling you're fishing for role information, although your reasons for asking BSG to elaborate are very convincing. I'm actually at a loss as well as to how she knows that scum don't have a fakeclaim.

Nevertheless your reaction seems slightly to me like scum flailing at the sight of someone knowing something about them.

[Korts]

FREEKO FOR FUCKSSAKE CONSIDER OTHER OPTIONS

[Korts]

unvote, vote: freeko

Deliberately stalling the game by failing to contribute (other than once in a while posting that you still want me lynched) is not just anti-town. You are doing it purposefully and proud of it. Just die.

[Korts]

Korts, it is real simple. I think you are scum. I have already listed why I believe this to be true. You do nothing to coutner this. Therefore I have no reason to belive that you are not scum. The question becomes then, what are you going to do when I flip over exactly waht I have said I was. You will likely end up bening next anyway.

I countered every point you made. In response you made the same points again, even though I refuted those. You do not respond to me, you do not respond to anyone else; you are not being helpful and you don't even try to hide this fact.

[Korts]

And you'll happily go to the grave if korts flips what he claims as well?

Yes.

Though what he claims is a load of crap. It is obvious to me that the scum teams plan was to get either myself or (at the time) Prom King lynched. korts even started a wagon on PK when he was inactive in the game. I foolishly agreed to this as it would have most assuredly proven my alignment (stupid me.. I also forgot that it would book my ticket for the NK as well).

IF I am somehow wrong on this, then I dont mind being lynched day 3.

You still haven't proven why my claim is a load of crap.

[Korts]

Ok freeko, then make the case clear

again

. Because the only point you made that I can find is that the sheep claim is somehow BS, which you haven't yet proved; and yet you are absolutely convinced, even though this is the weakest possible case.

[Korts]

freeko, that is some bullshit case. Most of the things you bring up are at best nulltells, and the rest speculation.

Nevertheless your conviction probably wouldn't be this strong if you were scum; the one thing I'm asking is don't tunnel in on me. You can be voting me, you can try to lynch me all you want, but you should not be ignoring other cases. That is NOT pro-town.

unvote, vote: Rhinox

[Korts]

FFS. It seems there's no use arguing with your bullshit case, freeko. You're just too thick-headed to realize that you haven't brought any points to the table that are valid.

Vi, what is your purpose in stating that Rhinox is indeed obvscum if you go and vote Juls?

[Korts]

I said this:
"I can't imagine sheep as clerics."
Where cleric is a rolename and not a role.

I can't imagine sheep as Cops or Trackers either
So the logic kind of breaks down here, considering this game is supposed to be vanillaless.

Umm, no. "Cleric" is flavor, cop and tracker are roles. The difference being, "cop" and "tracker" denote abilities, while "cleric merely implies it. My point was, cleric is an inherently

human

flavor, and at the time I said that, I'd believed the whole town to be mainly sheep.

Question for Korts though... What makes having strong convictions a town tell?

As the wagon on him grows simply for the reason that he's pushing bullshit points, freekoscum I'd expect to back off. Funnily enough he's done that, in a way, but not while my vote was there.

[Korts]

Ugh. Walls of text in every game I play.

freeko's points are intertwined with bullshit and running analogies, but he makes a few good points. Particularly the wishy-washiness on the mod flavor and the application always of the most favourable theories.

However his slip on the daytalking implies that he's not group scum, since he would know what kind of talking there is; he's probably an SK unless mafia can daytalk while masons can't--highly unlikely.

[Korts]

Well, you and korts are the ones I have pegged. Both of you have said that you will claim .. korts ages ago.

Um, no. What I said is that I will claim if the

majority

wants me to. As far as I know you alone don't make a majority, nor has there been a general concensus that I know of that I should claim. It'd be real nice if you could stop misrepping me, lest it appear you are scum.

[Korts]

I like the atmosphere.

[Korts]

It's sarcasm; I didn't particularly mean you, it was directed more at tubby and freeko, in that order. That said, I have no particular problem with freeko's playstyle itself, only the fact that his cases are so full of bullshit that any relevant points are quite hard to find.

[Korts]

Nooooo walls of text my only weakness

promise I'll read up when I don't have urgent homework

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-16

Freeko - 3 (BSG, Raider, tubby)
tubby - 1 (freeko)
Juls - 1 (Vi)
Rhinox - 1 (Korts)

Not Voting - 4 (afatchic, Rhinox, Juls, TonyMontana)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in 7 Days, in case you happen to be wondering.

Note: Deadline extended three days.

[Korts]

plus i knew vi was town with in his first page of posts, he has a tell and if i inform you of it his tell will dissapear,

I call dibs on the Vi-tubby scumteam.

Nevertheless the play today is either Rhinox or Juls. Whoever will have the bigger wagon near deadline will be the one I jump on.

[Korts]

Korts, don't you think you should decide now so somebody can claim before deadline and we don't end up making a rushed decision?

Well, seeing as my vote is on one of the two (you), I've made my decision already. But if the Juls wagon is nearer to a lynch, I'm switching wagons, because the deadline lynching rule here is no lynch unless we have a majority. It's quite simple really.

-I don't really see anything too scummy after re-reading Juls. I don't even remember why korts finds juls scummy. As far as I know, the only reason korts finds me scummy is because of my earlier vote on him. I'm disappointed that korts doesn't seem to be giving this game much attention. He hasn't really done anything since deciding I was scum. Korts, please outline why you think me and juls are good lynch choices

Basically both of you I'm suspicious of mainly for your votes on me, or rather their timing and the reasons for them. I'm not in the mood for a reread now, but I seem to remember a couple more minor things on Juls.

[Korts]

freeko is not the correct play here, not with what his claimed and confirmed role is, and definitely not with this case of "you're too abrasive therefore you are scum QED" and the pre-emptive justification of Tony of "if he's not scum, he's not good for the town in any way"; there's quite probably scum on his wagon at this point. I particularly don't like Tony and tubby's votes.

[Korts]

I am voting Rhinox. Is that enough walking?

[Korts]

I'd really like people on the freeko wagon to back off now kthx. He's still bad play. Tony and tubby's votes are still fishy, Tony's moreso because I know tubby to be a little short-sighted when it comes to pros and cons.

I'd start a wagon on Tony from scratch, but we don't have the kind of time for that. So I can support afatchic in lieu of any better choice (Tony, Rhinox or Juls would be nice), since he's among the better lynches for today.

[Korts]

I'd start a wagon on Tony from scratch

Is it because of the freeko vote by itself, or is there more?

Only thing that really bothered me was the freeko vote, but that was pretty blatant. The only other thing that kinda seemed scummy to me was how he ignored my IMO thorough defense of myself after your case on me was presented; but I'm biased on that issue.

Also, the vote on freeko looks particularly fishy because of this previous post:

Both.

Vote freeko

That is not anybit helpful to town. You just want Korts lynched for the sake of a lynch then. Everyone else on the bandwagon atleast concidered what I have said and then made up their mind, even if it was agianst the information I had. I would much rather you be todays lynch.

While I agree freeko is acting very anti-town, I must concede that Vi's "confirmation" of freeko is every bit as, if not even more, credible as yours of korts.

unvote

He never does mention that he's changed his mind about any "confirmation" from Vi having any bearing on freeko's alignment.

Your line of questioning, I take it, means you'd be willing to explore a Tony wagon?

Also, what do you think of the afatchic wagon in light of the people who started it (Rhinox, Juls)?

Huh, I didn't see that. For what it's worth I don't agree with the premise of the lynch at all--"hey look fatty hasn't caught up yet let's lynch him" seems to be the train of thought--I would be on afatchic's wagon in lieu of any more favorable lynch simply because he's one of the players who aren't bad play (where bad play is along the freeko/Vi and the raider/Korts axes).

[Korts]

@korts: got anything to say about your "buddy" raider at the moment?

No, not really, other than insisting that he get off your wagon--which he did for a far better wagon.

afatchic, if you wanted to set a trap, why explicitly state that intention? Do you agree that this defeats the whole purpose?

Actually I do have something to say to raider. Do you think aiming for self-preservation is scummy or anti-town? I get the feeling you're voting afatchic for voting freeko when his intentions are clearly at least in part to keep a role he knows to be sharing his alignment (i.e. himself) alive.

[Korts]

No Lynch: I wouldn't really support it.

Gosh i have such a good role, i really don't wanna have to claim it.

doesn't seem like you have much of a choice right now... My guess is you're just having trouble coming up with a good fake claim. Claim or die time. Everybody else, if he doesn't claim by deadline, someone better hammer his scum ass

yall should def. give me till friday to make up a good fake claim!! but seriously no one hammer until i have put some thoughts into it, please.

IMMINENT FAKECLAIM ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

just claim your role, what thought do you need to put in it?

This is a mini theme. I imagine he can put whatever he wants in the game.

What i am getting at is that Jesters should only be in an open game, where they are told ahead of time that there are jesters. if this was a semi open and said its possible to have jesters, then i could understand your concern. but the fact that tis a closed setup means there should not be jesters.

Ugh, there is no

should

in game design and presuming that there isn't a jester simply because this is a mini assumes things about the mod that we can't really know.

That said, I doubt there is a jester--I've never seen one outside of Jester Mafia and Tar's Mind Screw III; Juls is scummy for trying to feed the paranoia.

[Korts]

It's not about having an exciting role vs. not exciting. It's about CLAIMING. And your reluctance to do so at L-1 makes me want to get the toolbox. I am not giving you time to think up a credible fakeclaim; I want something in your next post, and your next post as soon as possible.

[Korts]

I think its time korts claimed for afatchic

Huh? Why'd I claim for him?

[Korts]

I want to hear a claim before I decide whether or not to hammer, freeko. If nothing else comes up, I will hammer before deadline.

[Korts]

Where exactly are you in your read?

[Korts]

because this proves im town

Uhh, not conclusively. You might have been scum with a one-shot lynch immunity, which is plausible. You're far more likely to be town at this juncture, but that may change depending on how much of a threat you turn out to be for scum.

[Korts]

I'd lean towards either freeko or Vi watching tonight because freeko's concern was that I was lying, and this way he'd get confirmation either firsthand or through a player he has more reason to trust than others.

I am still convinvced that a sheep in this game would essentially be the wolf in sheeps clothing.

And you still have yet to give any evidence that gives this theory some credibility.

I'm far more cautious about Rhinox watching--if he's scum, which I strongly suspect he is, he would have a prime chance to forge some evidence against me.

[Korts]

Did you get anything in PM about the watch, freeko?

Also, I would vote Path A simply based on the flavour of lake vs. rocky terrain.

[Korts]

For now all I can say is that I completely agree with suspicion on Rhinox and support a lynch on him. I have some things to be clarified by the mod before I'm going to post more on the matter.

On the fullclaim you want, Vi, I can claim, but again only if there's a majority demand. I don't want to claim before my power is put to good use; it is a useful power, especially when looking at the mod-revealed information.

The path: I say Path A because the rocky terrain implies possible scripted deaths. The lake seems a safer choice.

[Korts]

For now all I can say is that I completely agree with suspicion on Rhinox and support a lynch on him. I have some things to be clarified by the mod before I'm going to post more on the matter

Turns out, after thorough discussion with the mod, that I won't be saying what I had intended to say after all. I'm gonna have to make a case the usual way I guess.

[Korts]

vote: Rhinox

[Korts]

I'm not liking Rhinox's accusation that I haven't been scumhunting since Vi replaced in. Care to elaborate on that?

And while my conviction is solid in you being scum, I think I have done a fairly good job of keeping my mind open to other options.

[Korts]

Rhinox should know why I'm doing this. If he doesn't, that sounds like his own fault.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of holding a seperate vote on the subject. If you want a claim out of someone, convince the town of their scummyness.

Would you tell a cop on D3 (potentially) lylo not to claim even if they could confirm 2 innocents? That is essentially how I'm looking at this situation. I don't really think raider is scummy, but I think his claim could potentially clear 2 players + himself if it seemed like an honest claim. I could potentially see the claim resulting in 3 different scenarios:

1) Its completely solid and we all are fairly confident it proves sheep are town, which also indicates raider would be town as well.

2) It leaves some room for doubt, but seems like a valid claim. The sheep wouldn't be confirmed, but raider would seem likely town due to partially claiming to protect a sheep.

3) The claim sounds completely fabricated, and doesn't make sense at all for calling sheep town. Sheep allignment would be wifomy, but raider would be looking scummy for his earlier defending of the sheep.

Yesterday, I assumed scenario 1. I would like to believe scenario 1 is valid, making it very easy to decide who to vote today. I'm assuming scenario 2 is probably more likely. Without Raider's claim, its impossible to say which of the 3 scenarios are valid.

Why are you trying to force raider into claiming? I don't think it's lylo, since it seems there may be multiple factions--I'd say 2 mafia and an SK based on flavor, with the mafia kidnapping/mugging and the SK stabbing.

[Korts]

I promise to post something soon, I've been generally a slacker recently. Posting this in all my games.

[Korts]

Well, actually no I'm not posting this anywhere else because I've recently caught up with the other two

[Korts]

bleh. I just noticed how much text has been generated since I last properly looked here. Give me a few to catch up.

[Korts]

Note that a lot of this was written on a train without internet; only page 36 is loaded, so if I accidentally repeat any questions or accusations that were already answered on the next page please give me some slack. I try to remove those parts that would be simple repetition but I may not do a thorough job--I know I have the attention span of a stoned duck.

It was Juls first relevant post that had his PbPA breakdown of the players to that point, with a vote on PK (now Vi). Looking at that vote alone, after BSG (N2 NK target, and why I thought him to be scum as his 2 relevant actions in day 2 were against the pair of myself and PK/Vi) started the wagon rolling on PK witht ehfirst vote, Juls was soon to follow. The next relevant action is made by Rhinox, by saying that PK needs to claim. Followed by a small back and forth where Juls backtracks a bit and Rhinox on the next post drops his vote on PK. This is where the Juls/ Rhinox interaction is at its most obvious. They are tryingt to work to secure a mislynch of PK at this point. BSG is baarely playing at thispoint, so that vote is going to stay. I think if the game wasnt so bogged down by players not actively playing the game, they would have been sucessful on this attempt.

Now we know where Juls stanrds in this whole fiasco. It should be obvious by the interesations of the pair of Juls and Rhinox that they were working together to try to secure the mislynch of PK at the time. This is not a case of crazy ass coincidences like Vi could try to make on me. This is all here for everyone to see in all its glory with you Rhinox.

This is a very good point actually. Compare this to when they joined my wagon after Vi's extensive case, almost simultaneously and with little unique reasoning.

The next part of the puzzle is what set me off with korts. Korts comes in with a PK vote with the sole content other than the vote being "post or perish."

If you look at the time stamps, we'd been waiting on PK quite a while. My vote was to force him into contribution, assuming he was still reading the thread, while if he wasn't his lynch would still give information to the validity of your half-claimed connection.

Rhinox tries really, Really, REALLY hard to try to contort the situation (around the 360-370 post range now) into obv one of the two of us is scum.

I actually agree with the initial point Rhinox made here, and your reply was kinda wishy-washy, so his pressure on you for it was fairly valid.

those 3 because the others are me/korts and you/freeko. Seems like right now those are bad lynches. I think they still need to be dicussed but for the most part that has already happened. I did not get the support I wanted for the freeko lynch with you not going to vote him and the same with Korts. As I do not have all the time in the world like I wish I wil focus on them because that to me is the priority and I will go from there. I can understand why you may hate it because it does leave out 4 other people that would just be able to skate by. This is not the case though atleast not intended to be.

Why are you (were you) trying to win specifically Vi's and my vote? Do you want, perhaps, win round up the opinion leaders' support for your cause?

Also, for what it's worth, I'm getting increasingly pro-town reads off freeko. Vi is fairly pro-town as well, but his biased evidence against freeko seems odd.

See, this is where I start to have problems. Raider says he thinks sheep are town. Korts and tony are sheep. And now, raider says tony would be a good lynch choice... Why not Korts? Why is Tony a better lynch choice than korts?

I agree with the basis of your point, but the way you ask your question seems to me like you want to plant the Korts-scum thought in others.

In fact I agree with raider that Tony is more likely to be scum than me--naturally I'm biased What I mean is, his sheep claim came after raider confirmed there are likely two sheep total, and at the last second, when people were claiming sheep/not sheep and he had to make up his mind. A fakeclaim is feasible especially with how he retracted his claim (jokingly although to be honest I didn't see the joke in it initially).

** begin blatant sarcasm**
I think my new gimmick this day is to vote for you every time I make a post. Then again, someome clueless like fatso might think its a joke. Hah, there we go more random insults. Those are always fun. ** end blatant sarcasm**

I like you, you funny. (And finally you're not tunnel-visioning on

me

. It's relieving.)

********

Now, let me assume RS is town for a minute... If I'm town, I know I'm town, and I want the other townies to think I'm town, so I can not get mislynched and try to mislynch scum. If someone says they think I'm town, even for a reason I don't agree with, I would never say "no, thats wrong, you still have to assume I could be scum". Instead, I would keep that in the back of my head (why would that player think I'm town for that reason?) and keep my eye on that player, and be glad that I'm not being considered for lynch

Ugh. This is bad logic. Why do you assume that everyone would play like you as town? Me, I'd probably call them out. Hell, I can reference a game where Ectomancer specifically demanded of me why I exclude the possibility of

myself

bussing a known scum when I accused him of possibly bussing. Some players favor sensible logic over their own projected townness; I haven't played enough with RS to know how he thinks, but to assume he thinks the same as you is short-sighted and wrong.

Also, you stated that you had no intention of going after freeko today, but now, for the purposes of this part of the RS/tubby analysis you assume freeko's predecessor was scum? If you think he's scum, why don't you have any intention of going after freeko?

Does tubby know vi is town because of what he read, or does he know vi is town because he is scum and wants vi as a friend, or are they both scum? I'm thinking option B...

What leads you to believe the second option over the first one?

[qutoe="Rhinox"]Vi says he's aware of this tell, so I think its time you tell the rest of us what this tell is. [/quote]

You seem almost like you're eager to have something to refute, even though I share your general curiosity. I'm undecided on whether I actually want to know of this tell.

Accusing juls without any reason. Bussing?

Based on the comment, I conclude with your conclusion. Bussing is possible, although tubby is prone to lack of reasoning like so.

To be fair, Rhinox makes some fair points against tubby, but I get the feeling he's only doing it to avoid being lynched himself, and not out of a sense of duty to the town. Also, he apparently loves to keep arguing

Seeing raider's explanation of his plus knowledge, I think it's fair to conclude that either Tony is scum, or raider got only partial information. raider, why did you claim that you think there are

two

sheep?

[Korts]

Hmm. I've had some things clarified.

In, I think, a similar way to how raider gained knowledge of the sheep, I got the information that Rhinox is responsible for the Occam shepherd's death. It is from a reliable source.

That is, pretty much, all I can say.

So I'd really like a Rhinox lynch right now.

[Korts]

Hmm. Your claim is plausible. However it's not that hard to set up--the pike thing may not have been relevant, and the second piece of evidence was after, from the night kill flavor, it had been apparent what you need to claim. Also even if you're really the cause of that kill you may still be scum with a one-shot vig in addition--knowing my role I think that's quite possible.

Here's my offer. I still think Rhinox is scum; hell, I'm convinced 100%. I don't want him to nightkill tonight. So lynch Rhinox today, lynch me tomorrow if he turns out to be what he claims to be-which he won't. A 1:1 trade is very good even at this point.

[Korts]

Ok, here's my claim. I am a ram, and I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick. I can survive one nightkill attempt per night. I win when every threat to the town has been eliminated.

The information that Rhinox is scum was not role-based. Unfortunately I can't be less ambiguous about this. See my post 844.

[Korts]

I don't see how that role fits with the "no vanilla" theme of the game, tubby. As well as the fact that you didn't originally claim sheep when the town collectively claimed sheep/no sheep.

[Korts]

There are no guns in this game. There are (apparently) wolves who maul things, and a vig with a pike. No guns, unless anybody wants to claim to have a gun to back up your claim. That means, bulletproof you are not. NK immune GF or SK perhaps?

"bulletproof" is the general role name of a NK-immune townie. It is not flavor in this instance.

I like how you emphasise this point over two posts like it was an actually valid and strong one.

Nice try, though, scum.

What we know is at least 1 of the 3 sheep are lying. I believe its korts because he's BSing information about how I "killed Occam" - Korts, why don't you give us a summary of what was told to you in your own words... sorta like how raider did.

I cannot be any less ambiguous. See my post 844.

[Korts]

since raider seems to be misunderstanding me as well, I'll make it abundandly clear.

MY ROLE IS "RAM", IT WAS ONLY ME WHO CALLED IT BULLETPROOF. THIS IS NOT FLAVOR, THIS IS THE STANDARD ROLENAME FOR NK-IMMUNE TOWNIE.

[Korts]

Korts, why don't you give us a little more information about 842 and 844 then. What did you have to get cleared up with the mod, and why didn't it apply, and how does that relate to your "information" you claim to have right now?

What the generic swearword don't you understand about I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS?

Also, if you just interpreted your role as bulletproof, why don't you give us a paraphrase of what your PM actually says.

I am a ram. Since I am the favorite of the shepherd, and am thus fed with the best stuff, my wool has grown much thicker. New line: This means that I am NK-immune; I will survive the first NK-attempt against me each night. New line: I win with the town.

A paraphrase of the "information" you claim to have about me would be nice as well.

Again, what does I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS imply to you?

[Korts]

The bolded above implies to me that you thick fur has grown so thick it can actually stop bullets, making you literally bulletproof, like a bulletproof vest - not the backpedalling "bulletproof is just the generic term I used" explanation you gave. You second paraphrase just doesn't make it any better - you don't show any connection between how having thick wool makes you nk-immune. The "bulletproof wool" did make sense, except there are no guns :shrug:. Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

Ugh. It's not backpedaling to call a passive ability by its standard name. And are you implying that thick wool stopping bullets makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that it would stop stab-wounds?

Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

Really. I like how you're protecting tubby's weak claim; tell me, how does a sheep with no ability, active or passive, make sense considering the "no vanillas" nature of the setup? And how does his claim relate to his previous denial that he is a sheep?

BTW I'm not pissy. I just can't say anything else regarding my information, exactly because it isn't related to my role. I can try to clarify a bit further: I can claim the information I got, but not how I got it.

[Korts]

I am writing in caps where I'm frustrated.

Sure it would, but thats not what you said. You said "I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick". The first chance I gave you to correct your role claim was when I explained how bulletproof doesn't fit the flavor.

Don't be bullshitting me, or at least READ WHAT I WRITE. I explained to you that I was referring to a role ability when saying that I was bulletproof. IT HAD NO RELATION TO FLAVOR. The following part of "because my wool has grown too thick" was the flavor explanation of why I, as a sheep, was bulletproof. DON'T BE SO FUCKING THICK.

The second chance I gave you was when I asked you to paraphrase your PM for the second time. If bulletproof is the word you used, then there must some other wording in there that explains why your thick wool makes you nk immune. In your second paraphrase, basically all you do is take out the word bulletproof. I would expect it to say something like "you're wool has grown so thick and tough that it can stop any injury". That would be believeable.

No really. This is stupid. Just because my Role PM doesn't explicitly state the connection between my thick wool and the following statement that I'm NK-immune doesn't mean it's fake.

After 2 chances to paraphrase your role, you don't provide any link to how your thick wool makes you nk immune.

FOR FUCKSSAKE YOU ARE ARGUING AN IDIOTIC POINT

IT HAS NOT BEEN EXPLICITLY STATED IN MY ROLE PM THAT THERE IS A CONNECTION

NEVERTHELESS

I AM NK-IMMUNE

AND MY WOOL IS SO EFFING THICK

EVEN THICKER THAN YOU SEEM TO BE RIGHT NOW

When I said that, I didn't mean they were all believeable, I meant that the flavor was consistent. Everything in my role PM is connected and explained. I know why I'm in the woods guarding the road, I know that the lord of the woods hired me to protect the town. Being a trail guard explains why I have a pike, and the flavor about how it breaks after a limited number of uses explains why I am a limited shot.

So I got spared the elaborate flavor. What does that prove? Or do you think that if I was scum I'd be so stupid as to fake noticeably less flavor than I originally got?

This is still a bullshit point.

because I know you're making stuff up about me.

You're just saying that because you are scum

Anyways, this begs the question: if you're so unimpressed with tubby's claim, why aren't you voting him?

BECAUSE I have reliable information about you being responsible for Occam's death, like I said numerous times before.

Not being able to reveal anything else about your information or how you got it is BS, IMO.

REMEMBER ME REFERENCING MOD COMMUNICATION?

WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM

[Korts]

I know if any, this is the game that I should keep going in, but I have no time for mafia whatsoever at this point. I apologize deeply for any trouble I may be causing.

mod: replace me please.

---

Got it, Korts.

Final Votecount of Day 3

Rhinox - 2 (Korts, tubby)
Korts - 1 (Rhinox)
tubby - 1 (TonyMontana)

Not Voting - 3 (Vi, freeko, Raider)

With seven alive, it takes four to lynch.

[Korts]

I am. If you wish, read my most recent posts on site, as well as my alt Bloodmoney's.

[Korts]

Well, good game. Sorry about the day I was lynched, I gained an alternate win-con of lyncher (target was of course Rhinox) and I

did

have information that strongly hinted Rhinox as Occam's killer: the PM in which I was told of the new win condition said that I knew Rhinox to have killed my shepherd and that I had to have him lynched that day. Unfortunately I was also told that I cannot directly reference any PM from the mod, and I think I had borderline violated that anyway... Sorry about this, it was very clumsy play.

raider's claim was a bit off in retrospect, but congratulations on making it work wonderfully nonetheless. Was the Japanese thing only coincidence?

[Korts]

Well they don't call me captain hammer for nothing.

Nonono, you're using double negatives. it's "they don't call me captain hammer for anything"

Anyway, if you're going to be Captain Hammer, who'll be your Dr. Horrible?

Freeko, I have nothing to say to you, other than for as long as I've been here, you're the first player I've come across where I can honestly say I hope I never see you in another one of my games. Ever.

I don't understand the freeko hate, myself, I thought he played quite well once he got over the tunnel-vision thing (ironically he was right about me--but for all the wrong reasons, seeing as I

was

a sheep and the watch didn't turn up anything, exactly as I said). Being an asshole is part of the game.

[Korts]

If i were you, and you..err.. I was *not* scum, my blood would be boiling about freeko. But somehow when you're scum, you can't really blame when people tunnel you -.-

Nah, I probably would accept his play as town too. Getting others' blood boiling is a very good way to test reactions.

Also, I didn't notice he'd posted post-game at all. Give him some slack, he's a relative newbie and loss is always hard.

[Korts]

Vi, you should've chosen Edgey if you wanted Ace Attorney.