Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[Cephrir]

I won't be able to do this until tomorrow, please don't skip me.

[Cephrir]

Masoner.

[Cephrir]

I think the SS is going to be an obvious strategy later in the game and didn't even need saying, if I understand you. I think those voting based on peoples' roles and/or suggesting that we lynch "inherently scummy" roles don't get what Smalltown is. Roles and alignment are distributed seperately, so that's not really a valid way to do this. Although we should probably be cautious with lynching the more powerful roles.

Vote: Occam

for no particular reason.

[Cephrir]

Unvote

. Holy crap, I did not notice how many votes he had. My bad.

[Cephrir]

Cephir does look like a bandwagon vote

It doesn't just look like a bandwagon vote, it's the most blatent bandwagon vote I've ever seen that didn't come right out and say "I'm voting to bandwagon".

Or alternatively, it looks like

a random vote

.

[Cephrir]

If it was a bandwagon vote, why would I word it as though I hadn't noticed the other votes? When I finished what I was saying and decided to random vote, I just looked up and his was the first name I saw. Don't get why it's being assumed that I'm lying.

Occam's selfvote is weird, there's not much else to say about it. I do think it's a slight scumtell, there's no protown reason to pull shenanigans like that, ever, but he seemed to think it made sense.

Vote: Oman

for assuming that I'm lying for no apparent reason, and for not finding Occam at least a bit shady after that exchange.

[Cephrir]

@ Ceph -

If your "random vote" had been the hammer, do you think it would have looked scummy? If it had been the hammer, you could have used the very same defense: essentially, I voted without reading the game. How is this situation different than that one?

I did read the game, I guess I just didn't pay attention to where the votes were going. I'd hope I would have noticed if every single player who posted before me had randomly voted you. If not, then yes, it would look scummy, and I'd probably deserve to be lynched for missing that, and I certainly probably would be. But one doesn't generally think a random vote on page 3ish can possibly be hammer.

Also, DP is right. There's no reason bulletproof would be particularly dangerous for the scum to have, since the vig/SK would know who had the BP role. And there's an obvious advantage to having it, it's just not huge.

[Cephrir]

Simulpost. It's still not a bad ability. If DP is partially cleared through roleblocking/tracking, or he's just playing a very protown game, the scum won't be able to get rid of him.

[Cephrir]

People assume that because you vote for someone, it means you want them lynched, which is a completely flawed assumption. Your vote is a tool. I have used it already in this game for three different reasons.

THis is true, but your initial comment does make it sound like you want to lynch him, as you suggest lynching antitownish roles and then cite his role as dangerous in the hands of scum.

[Cephrir]

Obviously BP is not useless. If he plays a good protown game he can't be taken out. Yes, it is probably one of the weaker roles; I still don't get why that would automatically make him a lynch target.

Farside, those 5 reasons are basically the same reason a lot of times. #5 isn't even a reason to vote someone. Occam just voted and then was forced to defend his vote.

As Cephrr is only on three.

Unvote

Vote: Cephrir

Why?

[Cephrir]

I think Ceph might be scum.

K, why?

If it was a bandwagon vote, why would I word it as though I hadn't noticed the other votes?

Fortified WIFOM.

Yes, but no. Seriously, there was no reason for me to do that given any possible alignment. I don't see why this sin't obvious to everyone else.

When I finished what I was saying and decided to random vote, I just looked up and his was the first name I saw.

Where did you look up? Are you saying that you specifically chose someone who already had votes on them? Because the most recent few posts before your vote were voting him.

I just remembered the name from the post right before mine.

It apears to me that the argument for me being scum postulates that I'm a complete idiot.

[Cephrir]

You could stand to be a bit more detailed.

[Cephrir]

Obviously BP is not useless. If he plays a good protown game he can't be taken out. Yes, it is probably one of the weaker roles; I still don't get why that would automatically make him a lynch target.

Farside, those 5 reasons are basically the same reason a lot of times. #5 isn't even a reason to vote someone. Occam just voted and then was forced to defend his vote.

As Cephrr is only on three.

Unvote

Vote: Cephrir

Why?

Your bandwagoning.

And you don't believe my defense because....?

charter: There has to be more to it than that, you can't just say "meta" and expect that to be a legitimate reason to suspect someone.

I don't understand why anyone is voting for farside. Occam just seems to be getting PO'd and considering it a case. Glorified OMGUS, basically. Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it

helps the town.

And townie quickhammer do happen, unfortunately.

You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

This is just stupid. Farside was probably not aware there was an SK, or she is the SK and is being stupid, but that's not nearly as likely as you think it is just based on her apparently not knowing there was one. I don't think this would really benefit any alignment and there's not really a reason she'd have done that.

[Cephrir]

I do not claim that self-voting is protown

O RLY?

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I feel the need to point out that this is unnecessarily overdramatic.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[Cephrir]

Unvote

.

I need to figure out where this argument that farside is using craplogic is coming from, it seemed fine to me when I read it the first time.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir why did you unvote me in 224? There was no threat, you didn't move it anyway

Because I'm probably going to vote for someone else in the very near future, after I go back over Occam/farside.

Cephrir, I don't buy your defence because it presumes you're an idiot.

I beg to differ. The

case

on me hinges on stupidity, the defense is just based on the fact that I wasn't paying attention.

[Cephrir]

MM did flip out a little but I don't think it was too bad. The worst thing he's done has been terrible logic (this being that farside and Occam basically can't both be scum). Gremwell I get, but I'd rather not lynch him yet since he's the doctor. I would be suspicious of Empking, but I know that he always plays like this. We seem to have quite a few lurkers which needs to be fixed.

Empking, I'd like to know why you don't think my vote was random. Don't just steal everyone else's reasons.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, you don't random vote someone with that amount of votes unless you're an idiot.

But to be blatantly bandwagoning would be even stupider.

Not lynching someone because of their role is dumb. While doctor can be useful, in hands of scum it's way worse.

True. I suppose we can't vey well never lynch the good roles. I still need to look at a few more players before I place a vote.

Stop trying to start a lurkerhunt as well and comment on the people that are talking, they've said plenty.

I wasn't suggesting that we vote the lurkers, just that they post.

[Cephrir]

Unvote

.

I need to figure out where this argument that farside is using craplogic is coming from, it seemed fine to me when I read it the first time.

Any update on this?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I went back over it and yeah, I see it now. I also looked back specifically at the three players I hadn't read yet (farside, charter, Occam). I was going to mention that I'd norammly think you were scum because of how certain you are about everything except that you played similarly in Lovers Multiball; but now that I get what you're saying about farside it's not scummy at all.

I think the real problem is that I just get lost in farside's posting style sometimes, but after a second glance I think Occam's argument isn't nearly as flawed as I thought it was. You may actually be right that farside is scum.

Now that I've looked at everyone and haven't quite found any of the players I hadn't read scummier than Gremwell I'm free to vote for him.

Vote: Gremwell

[Cephrir]

That last MM post was just bad.

[Cephrir]

There's no solid case against me and everyone knows it.

...That's not true, and you know it.

[Cephrir]

MM looks so much like caught scum it's not funny. Just waiting on Yos.

[Cephrir]

Occam gave a piece of bad stratagy advice, and in response, you and several other people voted him. That seems pretty clear, Cephrir. It does not look like a randomly placed vote,

unless you someone completly failed to notice that in the 3 posts privious to yours 2 other people voted the same person.

Precisely. When you put it that way though, I can see why no one believes me.

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote Monkey

This has more to do with the votecount than O's post. Although that's good too. I'll answer that question later, in a bit of a rush.

[Cephrir]

Does it really matter how we do it? Popcorn is fine, random would have been OK too.

[Cephrir]

I may as well claim, really, since my claim isn't going to change much of anything. I did nothing, although I did consider doing a few somethings. Not sure enough about DP, and my other top protown players I thought might die.

Occam, you're up.

[Cephrir]

No, it's really not.

[Cephrir]

I know that neither me nor ortolan made the kil. charter didn't because he vigged farside. Emp didn't unless ML is lying or unless ML's block was tampered with. That leaves Ceph, Occam, DP, as our most likely killers, with Emp or ML being less likely possibilities.

Or Oman, so we can't really draw the conclusion that at least one of those players is scum.

@charter: Why? Also, what happened to ortolan? He's still near the top of my list, so what changed?

Emp, the answer is obviously no, please answer questions now.

[Cephrir]

Everyone: How do people feel about "Lynch All Liars"? I have a tiny voice in the back of my head suggesting that someone may have lied about their night action, though purely for game theoretical reasons, not for any posts this person made or other game-specific knowledge.

Is there any reason not to say who this person is? Also, lynch all liars does not equal lynch all possible liars.

And charter, as has already been pointed out, your reason for clearing orto fails. Yes, scum-doctor might hypothetically be more likely to protect a buddy than anyone else, but if he gets tracked isn't protecting the tracker, he's screwed.

[Cephrir]

If you're thinking what I think you migh be, it's not a good idea to bring it up I suppose. But some of your wording seems weird if you're referring to what I'm thinking of, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Cephrir]

This post is very unconvincing and his reasoning for voting Oman is a stretch. Definitely leaning towards distancing now.

Pff. I just couldn't believe no one was believing that I hadn't intended to bandwagon, because at the time I hadn't yet realized that the truth is a bit hard to believe in this instance. I thought his vote for me was one of the worse ones and the point I made about his attitude towards Occam made him the best vote for me at the time. Basically what you're saying is that I'm scummy for choosing correctly.

I can't answer for others' comments but I can say that effectively lynching both Emp and myself today based on connections between us is stupid. Firstly, you can't really label two players as probable scumbuddies until one of them is dead. I think there's a decent chance Emp is town, but if he's not then, since all your evidence that I'm scum with Emp is based on connections from him to me and not vice versa, it's equally possible that he's scum and is trying to make me look like his buddy. Normally I'd say that Emp isn't a good enough player to come up with something like that, but a lot of those posts do look to me like precisely that.

@ML's plan: well, I did figure out most of it (as the commuter is the only role with an incentive to lie as town). I have to agree with charter that you may as well just roleblock him, if you find it necessary.

[Cephrir]

Gah, why does everyone have to lynch me in both my active games simultaneously. I'll deal with this later.

[Cephrir]

My internet is being extremely screwy, possible LA.

[Cephrir]

I'll have time for the case at some point, but I think I should point out that it would be kinda dumb to get me killed without allowing me to use my ability as an investigation.

[Cephrir]

I'd also like to point out if you are town, and your ability is of use to us, then what's to stop the scum from NK'ing you and framing someone else? Also, how would we even know who you confirm if scum kill you? That would mean ort has to protect you, and I'm not sold on ort just yet, and I would much rather him keep protecting RR. Or ML could block you. A MILLION things can go wrong.

True. But if I live, then it's pretty conclusive, and if I die then you don't have to lynch me.

Speaking of which, why did you not use it last night?

Because DP hadn't instilled a ton of confidence in me as to his protownness, and I wasn't sure enough that my top townie as of yesterday (you) both was town and wouldn't die.

[Cephrir]

62- Ceph votes Occam
84- Oman votes Ceph
87- Ceph Unvotes Occam
Here's something I didn't pay any attention to yesterday. Why on earth was Ceph apologizing for putting someone at L-3 in the RVS? There's nothing wrong with that, why did he even get attacked? When questioned, all he should have said, was "what's wrong with putting someone at L-3?"

I defended myself (with the truth) because people decided to attack me for it.

Oman pushes a crap case for a bit. This reaks of distancing. No one would lynch Ceph for putting someone at L-3, even if his reaction to being called by Oman is less than stellar.
101- Ceph votes Oman for an equally poor reason, more distancing

I've already explained my vote on Oman today.

Ceph and Oman are both VERY quiet around here. Neither is pushing for the other's lynch. They are letting others argue and insert their two cents in every once in a while.

I'm typically a quiet player. And obviously no one agreed with my Oman vote, which was kinda a placeholder anyway.

Ceph does some preparing to board the MM wagon.
450- Now it looks like he's ready to board MM. I don't believe he once mentioned Gremwell while voting for him. It looks like he's doing a gradual shift because it's becoming fairly clear that MM is going to be lynched over Gremwell.

Not really, I just preferred to lynch the non-doc since I found them about equally scummy.

573- Doesn't take a stance on claiming. Odd, everyone else has one.

...Is that supposed to be scummy? Why on earth does it matter?

This is basically just like the case that's lynching me in my other game; you've decided that I'm scum and you've then gone through the thread putting scummy motives behind everything I do when there's really a perfectly reasonable explanation.

So apparently you still intend to use your mason ability tonight, even though it's got greater chance of hitting scum now.

Yes, but now I have another day of information to base my choice on.

And I wouldn't think "masoning someone who died that night" would be so bad, you don't lose anything out of it, it's just not as good as the optimal outcome of clearing someone who's alive- it's still much, much better than the worst outcome of you dying from targeting scum and us not even knowing who it was, which is a more likely outcome of you using your ability tonight rather than yesterday.

It's not

that

much more likely. In hindsight I suppose I should have used it, but I didn't and I've given my reasons. Take it or leave it.

Not at all. It's still very possibly a scum gambit for you to clear your buddy and endgame us day/night 3.

But I'm going to be lynched tomorrow, so then you'll see that this isn't the case.

[Cephrir]

If I were to survive today so that I could use my ability, I'm sure I'd just die tomorrow.

[Cephrir]

You could die, but if you live I'm still in favor of lynching you. You possibly being able to clear one person doesn't outweigh the benefits of lynching you sooner rather than later.

Why is there a benefit to lynching me now rather than after I've been allowed to investigate? There's a decent chance I'll just die from that tonight anyway, which gives the town an extra lynch.

Why am I your top townie and why only mention DP?

I mentioned DP because his role basically makes him my default target unless I have a good protown read on someone else. You were my top townie because you did a lot of scumhunting yesterday and I pretty much agreed with all of it, and you're playing very similarly to how I've seen you play as town. Even though I haven't seen you as scum IIRC.

[Cephrir]

How does DP's role make him the default target? Just because he won't die at night has nothing to do with you dying at night.

Because theoretically, having a clear bulletproof would be nice.

For me at least, there's really no one else I find even close to as scummy as you, so letting you live another day seems like it will just increase the chance of lynching a townie to me.

Even though your reasoning for no longer suspecting ortolan isn't valid?

Plus, if the town agreed to some 'let Ceph live and use his ability tonight' plan, there's no way it could go through without scum messing it up.

MacavityLock is the only one who can screw it up. 'Cause it's not like the mafia would kill me, that'd be stupid.

[Cephrir]

RR/ort would have to be the scumteam and NOT made the kill last night.

Again, not true. It's entirely possible that ort did protect who he says he did but is still scum.

If mafia kill you then it condemns whoever you targeted. You're not going to save yourself by saying you haven't used your ability yet.

Wrong. First of all, I don't have any intent to tell the town who I'm going to target beforehand, and secondly it wouldn't condemn them anyway since the town is aware of the possibility that the mafia may kill me. And if they do, great, I don't have to be lynched.

Please re-iterate your case against me Cephrir.

It's still the Gremwell case from yesterday. I haven't really looked at you yet.

[Cephrir]

Prodded. Will read later.

[Cephrir]

Vote: ortolan

I guess I'd hammer Emp if that's the consensus but I don't really think he's scum so I really don't want to.

[Cephrir]

Is that a serious question?

[Cephrir]

LYNCH CEPHRIR

Cmon people. I MUCH prefer just lynching Ceph over trying to force him to hammer Emp.

Fortunately you aren't the entire town. You haven't really addressed why you don't accept my defense, you're just glossing over it and attacking me anyway. And I still don't get why you won't even consider ort. I'm beginning to wonder if you could be scumbuddies even though I thought you were town because you were after him strongly yesterday, vigged your second suspect instead of him, and now that Oman died ort has magically vanished from your suspects.

Vote: charter

because I'm being forced to choose between him and Empking, who I believe to be town.

Hmm. But I suppose the problem is, as Mac pointed out, that really, all Ceph has to do to avoid having to hammer Emp is lurk for the next couple of days, unless we get a deadline extension. I will have enough time to monitor this game over the next two days and see how things pan out - if we get the extension I advocate my plan, if not we might have to quickly rethink it.

Yes, but I would only do that if I were scum. And I'm not, so I won't but if I did then I'd have outted myself anyway.

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote charter

I would rather lynch ort still but I just don't think it'll happen. And if my theory is correct I suppose a vig is more dangerous.

[Cephrir]

I love how everyone just ignores my defenses. Just like in 698. Ugh.

Anyway, I think I'm about to set a record for most consecutive games lynched by day three. Look at ort/charter after I die, GL.