Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[charter]

If Oman takes my choice I'm gonna cry.

[charter]

"Mankind has been blind for thousands of years-for all of its history. We have come to a place whose wonders are a hundred-fold more amazing than anything on Earth. Around us is clear evidence of the will of a higher power. I bring the Vision to the blind eyes of men. I bring the Word to the deaf ears of men. I will make them see it. I will make them hear it."

-- Prophet Cha Dawn, "Planet Rising"

---

You are

Prophet Cha Dawn

of the Cult of Planet. You have reached a deep understanding with Planet, and can communicate with her indiginent life and persuade it to do your bidding. So if you're having trouble getting your voice heard at the Planetary Council meetings, you might find that sending a boil of mind worms to pay someone a visit gets your point across very effectively. Be warned, however, that mind worm attacks do not make for the most subtle of assassinations; anyone killed in this fashion will leave a very distinctive corpse, and while nobody will be able to

prove

that you are responsible, you might find that the general paranoid atmosphere on Planet these days leads them to drop the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

In other words, you're a

Vigilante

. Each night, you may PM the name of another living player, and you will attempt to kill them.

I actually realized I would like the roleblocker the same amount, but gotta go vig.

Supersaint is one of the better roles here in my opinon. Worst is inventor if you wind up being town, or commuter.

[charter]

Roles that are worthless if you are scum: Bus driver, masonier, and to a lesser extent jailkeeper.

[charter]

Jailkeeper is worthless near endgame, or once you're the only scum left. Choosing besides jailkeeping or killing will give you away in the morning. Same deal with the bus driver. I was scum bus driver in my last smalltown, and it was hopeless once I was the only one alive.

[charter]

I guess I know something you don't, charter. JK is good for scum all game long.

Probably, I'm basing most of this on a game that was a day start and day two was lylo.

[charter]

I'll have Pravin Lal - Jailkeeper Smile.

I'll have

burning eternal hatred for you forever.

I could, ya know, "take care of him"

[charter]

SCUM - Empking + farside

and to a lesser extent Crazy.

SK - Occam

My first post predictions.

vote Occam

[charter]

You clearly missed that those weren't serious.

[charter]

unvote

Every game I've been in with a lynch in 3 or so pages or less for day one has resulted in a town loss... More later.

[charter]

viewtopic.php?t=6981 - just over 1 page
viewtopic.php?t=9889&postdays=0&postord ... &start=100 - just over 4 pages

Another mini where someone went from 0 or 1 votes to 7 and hammered I believe on one page. - viewtopic.php?t=9466&postdays=0&postord ... &start=325

[charter]

My idea was to see if someone would call it scummy for bringing it up such as charter did.

False, where did I call it scummy?

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

You perceive it as a scumtell (as do most people I reckon), but you think scum would do it anyway to gain sympathy? How is committing a commonly accepted scumtell supposed to give scum sympathy? And how does it just give scum sympathy and not townies?

For the record, I see it as a null tell as well. I don't see any advantage scum gains over town for doing it.

116- Christ, you want the first person you vote for lynched? Occam is right on this one.

I don't see anything wrong or scummy with Occam's posts.
I think Ceph might be scum.
I will

vote farside

because I think she is scum.

[charter]

Voting for himself at and not a hammer to gain sympathy is scummy. He succeed to stopping pressure from a horrid comment.

I'm asking how voting for himself gains him sympathy, and why that only gives scum sympathy and not town. You still didn't explain this, please do. You saying it gains sympathy doesn't make it true. How is wanting to stop pressure on oneself any indicator of alignment? I don't think that he stopped pressure, he took quite a bit of flack for voting himself in fact.

He succeed in getting you to unvote why is that exactly?

Why did I unvote? I didn't want him lynched that fast, that wasn't obvious with my statement of all the games I've been in with super fast lynches have resulted in town losses?

Really you know who the BP hurts, scum or the SK. Not the town that is for sure. It is one less person for the scum or SK to not focus on so who else would want to get rid of a "useless" role?
So you think Ceph is scum but think I'm scum with no reason. Lovely. Good scum hunting skills if you have them.

I think BP helps all alignments, as you can coast through as long as you don't paint a target on yourself during the day, decreasing the chance that your alignment in lynched. Living long in the game is desired by all alignments.

I asked you questions because your statements don't add up, that sounds like scumhunting to me.

Whether sarcastic or not (IE sarcasm is not always noticeable on the computer) you did call me scum

SCUM - Empking + farside

I said right after that it wasn't serious, so you knew it wasn't serious. I called you scum, sure, but where did I say your idea was scummy? So, back to the original question, where did I call [farside's idea] scummy?

Think I'm on to something here guys.

[charter]

I'm asking how voting for himself gains him sympathy, and why that only gives scum sympathy and not town. You still didn't explain this, please do. You saying it gains sympathy doesn't make it true. How is wanting to stop pressure on oneself any indicator of alignment? I don't think that he stopped pressure, he took quite a bit of flack for voting himself in fact.

He self voted to get to L-1 saying the BW was stupid. He has now stopped the backlash for the most part by doing that vote and now getting the it's null to self vote. BS!
self voting is not null I can count the number of times I votes myself and was scum.

Me too. Zero. Now that I think about it, I've only self voted as town. Looks like it must be a towntell then!

Saying look this case is such BS I'm self voting did exactly what he wanted which was stop pressure.

Yes, and how is wanting to stop pressure on oneself indicitive of scum and not town? I don't want pressure on me regardless of alignment.

farside, you are dodging all of my (scumhunting) questions, and not doing a good job of it at all either.

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and

I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

You perceive it as a scumtell (as do most people I reckon), but you think scum would do it anyway to gain sympathy? How is committing a commonly accepted scumtell supposed to give scum sympathy? And how does it just give scum sympathy and not townies?

I would like direct answers to these questions please.

You tell me how self voting gains him sympathy as scum but can't give him sympathy as town.

You called me scum. That equals scummy. Wording a bit different but not by much. You being a grammar police now?

No, I'm trying to show that you're completely twisting the actual facts. Scum twist facts.

FACT - In my first post, I decreed three people scum and one a SK.
FACT - I gave ZERO reasoning for any of that.
FACT - You accuse me of saying one of your ideas is scummy.
FACT - I never said that idea was scummy. (I've already gotten over the fact that you made it up for me, now I want to know why) In fact, I didn't even read it, just saw a large chuck of text, and skipped it.
QUESTION - Why did you accuse me of thinking your idea was scummy, when I never said it was?
FACT - No one else I decreed scum or SK thought twice (or even acknowledged) my post.
CONJECTURE - farside is incredibly jumpy, and takes to being called scum MUCH more seriously than I think is warrented. I think she is scum.

(I very much like posting like that, I think I will do it more often)

[charter]

I think Ceph might be scum.

K, why?

Meta.

[charter]

There really isn't any more detail.

[charter]

Also, it should be noted that since Occum voted for Ceph, it is unlikely that they are both scum. That means either they are both town, Occum is scum and Ceph is town, or Ceph is scum and Occum is town. Since they have both exhibited questionable behavior, I think the first scenario is unlikely, I think they are on opposite teams. That means if we lynch one and they are town, then we can lynch the other one day 2(unless better info comes along), and they will likely be scum.

Oman's right, this isn't necessarily true.
Fos monkeyman for pulling the "lynch them both" stunt.

@Farside, me saying I think Ceph could be scum because of meta hardly constitutes a case. I can see you aren't going to answer my questions, so I have to assume the answers incriminate you. As a side note, I'd be careful about linking to MD threads, I've been modkilled for doing it.

[charter]

@Farside, me saying I think Ceph could be scum because of meta hardly constitutes a case. I can see you aren't going to answer my questions, so I have to assume the answers incriminate you. As a side note, I'd be careful about linking to MD threads, I've been modkilled for doing it.

What question am I dodging. Oh wait I'm not I'm answering the questions and you don't like my answers that's all. How is voting for self not scummy again? Why did you unvote (still unanswered speaking of dodging questions)

ITS NOT SCUMMY BECAUSE HE DOESNT GAIN ANY ADVANTAGE DOING IT AS SCUM THAN AS TOWN. I UNVOTED BECAUSE I DONT WANT A LYNCH ON WHAT, PAGE 5? I ALREADY SAID BOTH OF THESE.

What if for a second I believed you as town. What happens when you put yourself at L-1 and some scum still hasn't voted. Your vote, your single vote is in terms self lynching at that point. Deal with it.

Only scum would speedhammer in such a way on day one. This isn't self lynching, it would out one scum. Your scenario is so horribly flawed it hurts.

I show a valid point and the best you have is I'm misrep the vote? Really the fact that someone unvoted you looks more suspicious as scum don't mind having an L-1 vote. A town person should be worried about L-1.

No, your point was flat out wrong.

at FOSing a logical statement. I didn't say it was 100% true, I said it was likely, and a possible strategy, not one that we have to follow if something better comes along.

I Fos'ed you because I see scum pull this MUCH more often than town.

alright then could you kindly explain to me how a role who's sole power is to be immune to a night kill makes it more dangerous than normal to be in the hands of the group doing the most night killing.

He's not lynch proof

He's not going to be a wasted Vig kill

in fact the worst case scenario would be a BP SK, not scum

STOP WASTING OUR TIME WITH THE BP STILL. START TALKING ABOUT CATCHING SCUM (FARSIDE FOR INSTANCE). It's painfully obvious that you're just trying to coast through and don't care about finding scum.

Around this point I stop reading farsides posts and just skim Occams for stuff not dealing with farsides extremely obvious being scum.

I don't understand why anyone is voting for farside. Occam just seems to be getting PO'd and considering it a case. Glorified OMGUS, basically. Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it helps the town.

Her logic is blatently (probably knowingly too) wrong. She's inventing things and twisting facts. She's really obvious scum.
You know that antitown does not equal scummy right?
Also, Occam is right, I can show you examples (well, just one) of SELF HAMMERING IN A NEWBIE GAME being arguably the best move for the town.

Not going to keep arguing with farside, it is going nowhere. Honestly, I've seen enough for a day one. I don't even care that Crazy hasn't posted, he's a poster child for a SK kill tonight. I'm not voting Occam, but I'd lynch any of farside, Ceph, MM, or Gremwell. Farside is by far the scummiest. She is using wrong logic, she is looking for any easy target she can, SHE ISN'T ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR SCUM (but feigning it), and is now doing the everhelpful voting the lurker when there is plenty of discussion going on. (I might add that there's others besides Crazy that are worthy of a vote for lurking, but do they get included? Nope.)

[charter]

I could point out (again) where you invented me saying your idea was scummy. I could point out (again) where you claim he must be scum because he self voted, when that's not true. I could point out (again) how he wasn't "sacrificing" anything, he did it with a purpose and he did a good job acheiving that.

But no, it's useless, I don't think anyone else reads my posts and you just ignore all but tiny bits and peices.

And do you know what we do with players that don't post farside? WE REPLACE THEM!!!!! YAY!! Wanting to lynch the tracker (or anyone actually) when they haven't made a single post, well it just strengthens my point that you don't care who gets lynched.

[charter]

You're hunting all right, you just don't care you you shoot is the problem.

[charter]

Since they dominated the last few pages, and most people seem to have an opinion one way or the other, how many people think that either one of farside or occam is defiantly scum?

the reason I ask is that if we can at least agree on that much then we could lynch one and vig the other, I doubt anyone would disagree with a one for one trade

of course this hinges on one of them being definite scum, not just two townies slugging it out

its just a suggestion, as I can see this conflict clouding the rest of the game.

No. You are scum. Once again, you ignore everything important in the game to give us this. You've commented on virtually nothing that's happened in this game. Also, you're clearly trying to gather everyone else's opinion on this matter without giving your own, testing the waters if you will.

Farside has now switched all her reasoning. Scum as well. Now Occam has done a slew of anti-town things. Before it was a slew of scummy things. This looks like she's trying to drop her whole line of questioning because she sees that no one else is buying it.

When I see someone unvote and others talk about it I want to know are they scum looking town or town that is confused.

...

I remember a game page 3 where scum did hammer someone at L-1 so yes if someone is town and thinks no scum wouldn't do something like that. They are living a lie or they are scum and have nothing to worry about.

OR TOWN NOT WANTING A LYNCH ON PAGE FIVE. Guess what, scum won that game with the hammer on page two. So why would you want to repeat the mistake again here? Farside was town in that game and scum won, I have no idea how she doesn't see the obvious parallel here.

[charter]

Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside, and slightly above gremwell in terms of scumminess. He has done a lot of what gremwell has, with the not commenting on anything. Gremwell even refused to take a stance on his own question to everyone else, after it was pointed out that he needs to.

I feel like I can flip a three sided coin for who I want lynch today. Farside, gremwell, and MM all have their own side. Now off to find one...

[charter]

obviously I didn't actually want a plan like that to go through, I proposed it to get reactions, .

Is that, "I acted scummy do get reactions"? (I'm honestly not sure.)

That's exactly what it was. I think I'd rather lynch one of gremwell or MM today. MM is reacting horribly to being very loosely called scum. Way overly panicky. Gremwell isn't even trying to find scum, is acting scummy, and hasn't said one thing this whole game.
Since Oman's 3 sided coin landed on Gremwell.

Unvote, Vote Gremwell

[charter]

I'm not being panicky, I'm trying to get an explanation for being FOS'd without reasoning.

I don't know why you were Fos'd, but you pretty much blew up over it. Also, I just looked back over your posts because I can't really remember you talking very much. You've said about as little as Gremwell. You aren't trying to find scum either, you're just trying to fit in and avoid suspicion.

Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside,

Why did you have to wait till someone else pointed it out before saying anything?

I read it once briefly, I thought it was odd. When Oman pointed it out I gave it more attention and realized why it was odd. For the love of god, stop trying to use pointless crap. Try and actually do something useful in this game. Why not comment on Gremwell's utter lack of contribution, or his recent very scummy idea? Why not comment on MM's gross overreaction to being called likely scum in the event Occam is scum? Why do you only post terrible logic and pointless questions?

MM did flip out a little but I don't think it was too bad. The worst thing he's done has been terrible logic (this being that farside and Occam basically can't both be scum). Gremwell I get, but I'd rather not lynch him yet since he's the doctor. I would be suspicious of Empking, but I know that he always plays like this. We seem to have quite a few lurkers which needs to be fixed.

Empking, I'd like to know why you don't think my vote was random. Don't just steal everyone else's reasons.

Not lynching someone because of their role is dumb. While doctor can be useful, in hands of scum it's way worse. Stop trying to start a lurkerhunt as well and comment on the people that are talking, they've said plenty.

I'm not voting for Gremwall because I think Occum is scum. I agree with Farside that selfvoting is scummy and I am also suspicious of him claiming that BP townie is worthless.

You forgot "I'm scum with Gremwell". That holds more water than the reasons right there.

I honestly can't see why no one else will wagon Gremwell. What do the rest of you guys want? How do you propose getting him to start talking?

[charter]

Your last two 'arguments' against me have been

Chater: post 56 your predicition post why would you vote for the person you predict is the SK?

I've already been over (about four times now) how that wasn't serious. Occam was random.

And then it was

Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside,

Why did you have to wait till someone else pointed it out before saying anything?

Which I went over.

Both of these are pointless things to question. (And I was talking about what I was saying was useless crap, and you're trying to spin that against me somehow)

[charter]

Roles aside I think Grem's played scummier. Monkeyman isn't far behind but I really don't think we ought to let the fact that this is an open setup get in the way of lynching scum.

Agreed.

I actually want to know why those voting MM picked him over Gremwell. I can see a possibility (remote though it may be) that MM just blew up over getting called scum as town. It doesn't excuse the rest of his scummy actions, but I think regardless, Gremwell is worse.

[charter]

Whaaaat???
Are you kidding me? Politician? He botches using that once (before LYLO) and everyone will know he's scum. I don't see any use for Politician as scum before LYLO. Doctor cuts the chances of crosskills down by a lot. What makes you think politician is more dangerous in the hands of scum than doctor? (I don't see it, so I want to be enlightened)

[charter]

Wait, so now you're saying doctor is useful to scum but bulletproof isn't?

Where did you get this from?

Your reason for voting MM was he has a more dangerous scum role. I'm asking how you figure the politician is a more dangerous scum role than doctor.

The way I see it is, if the politician tries to sneak a vote in and quicklynches someone, it's going to be extremely obvious and MM will in all likelyhood be quicklynched himself. He can't use his role to scum's advantage without the consent of the town or giving himself up. If he manages to live until lylo, and he is scum, then he can quicklynch a townie for a win. I don't see his role helping scum before lylo. The doctor in the hands of scum significantly decreases the chance of a crosskill being sucessful. He can target his scumbuddies and just say "Oh, I felt they were protown".

[charter]

Didn't everyone hammer on Occam for saying Bulletproof was good for scum?

The thing is, do you think that Occam using his ability night one is anti-town?

How is this an answer to my questions or an explaination of how doctor isn't as dangerous in scums hands as politician? That's all I'm looking for.
To answer that second question, if he botches then it's anti town. If he doesn't, then it's not anti town. It's up to how he uses it.

I don't see any way that farside isn't scum.
MM, that's why you're very suspicious, you're just repeatedly saying "You shouldn't be suspicious of me, vote this guy!" which is very scummy.

[charter]

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

[charter]

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

Why would you change your vote?

I think MM is scum too. MM has more votes and none of the people voting him will vote for Gremwell for who knows what reason. It's kind of sad, but I'm actually kind of waivering on MM, mostly because of the ease at which people will vote him, and the difficulty in getting people to vote Gremwell (who is far scummier).

I find the MM wagon informative. Actually both votes going as they are I find both informative but believe MM scummy compared to Grem. I think those on Grem are seeing what he said as scummy and I understand the reasons. I just disagree. Yes what he said was bad. I even FOS'ed, well I cant' smack the boy for saying something anti-town can I? Seriously though when he stated why and what he learned from it I thought it was a good thought process. Everyone is jumping on him because he did it for reaction. Now I don't know if this is true or not. It is pretty dumb thing to say.

Why did you FOS? What did he do that prompted it?

I also disagree that the MM wagon will yield much information. Certainly much less than Gremwell will. Everyone voting him is doing it because of the same one reaction. So if he gets lynched, you can't find any scum off it because everyone is using the same reason.

[charter]

Unvote

.

I need to figure out where this argument that farside is using craplogic is coming from, it seemed fine to me when I read it the first time.

Any update on this?

[charter]

The wind blowing a different direction now MM, eh?

[charter]

And happy birthday Ceph!

[charter]

No, I'm saying that you're changing your vote to Gremwell because others are doing it.

[charter]

At least, that's how it seems to me.

[charter]

I didn't say he was being incosistant. I know he's said he's suspicious of Gremwell. I just think it's interesting that he changes votes after the Gremwagon gains steam and without Gremwell posting. The only thing that's changed is that Gremwell has more votes.

I also note how his vote isn't necessary for a lynch yet. I took his statement to mean 'If Gremwell went to L-1 and no one else was suspicious, I'd vote Gremwell'. I can also point out his statements where he doesn't change his vote around unless the new person is scummier, it's just very hypocritical.

Also, I went back and looked at his posts, ever since his first mention of Grem

and a big FOS on Gremwall.

He has said nothing about Gremwell up until

I will wait to comment until others weigh in

Scumtell. If you have an opinion you should say it now.

and that's all. Doesn't really seem to want to further Gremwell's wagon, his vote is just on there because others' are.

ML, what do you think of Gremwell?

[charter]

First,

Can we get an ultimatum/replacement of christiano drago?

He's made two posts this whole game. Also, rereading the roles,

If the masonier uses his one shot on town, and is scum himself, what happens? Do you confirm anyone's alignment?

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

Why would you change your vote?

I think MM is scum too. MM has more votes and none of the people voting him will vote for Gremwell for who knows what reason. It's kind of sad, but I'm actually kind of waivering on MM, mostly because of the ease at which people will vote him, and the difficulty in getting people to vote Gremwell (who is far scummier).
.

At the time it was three apiece. How did you think their was more ease in voting MM than Gremwell?

A lot of people are just saying 'Gremwell has a better town power, vote MM' or 'Gremwell did one scummy action, MM has done two, vote MM'.
I personally feel that first point is meaningless, and the second is just wrong. For some reason people are buying into both of these, when they are just not true. Also, most of the people voting MM voted him and just left it at that. That seems counterintuitive since MM posts frequently, but everyone voting him is already convinced he's scum and needs to die. I draw this conclusion since the people voting him aren't interacting with him hardly at all any more.

There are a lot of scummy things Grem has done. Never commenting on anything important (instead doing lots of setup speculation), the terrible idea and withholding opinion, his backtracking of this idea, his utter lack of scumhunting, and I feel Occam points out a good point in his post 320 where Grem contradicts himself (post 178 and 184).

From a quick glance at RR's post, it looks pretty good, I'll go over it later. And farside, you did not answer my questions, I dropped it because the refusal to answer was probably more incriminating than whatever answers you would have given.

[charter]

Oh, and happy holidays everyone!

[charter]

305 - farside moving vote to MM for obvious reasons. Where did the case on farside go? Charter did some questioning earlier I thought was pretty good and didn't get a satisfactory answer iirc.

Oh I haven't dropped it. You will see it again day 2. However, at this point, one of MM or Gremwell is by far the best lynch for today (as basically everyone has been talking about these two for a while now).

Farside's 327 - ... I still think you just figured Crazy/me a comfortable target and good means to move your vote away from Occam.

BINGO

Farside, I am not going to go back through the game and point out all the questions you did not answer. The answers are no longer meaningful to me. If you really want one, there's one I found while not even looking at the bottom of 324. There are plenty more from the beginning of the day.

We really shouldn't be lynching anyone until Gremwell comes back (at the very least). It would also be nice for christiano drago to come back to us.

I'm still pushing for Gremscum to be lynched. I agree that MM has been extremely scummy, but I still think Gremwell has been worse, and I see more of a link between Gremwell and farside than MM/farside.

mod, any update on christiano drago's status?

[charter]

Oh, and no planning out night choices today. That's just silly.

[charter]

Oh, and no planning out night choices today. That's just silly.

[charter]

If you want a reason, if my vig kill is planned it lets Doctor, Jailkeeper, busdriver, probably someone else I'm missing mess with it, and since I don't know any of your alignments (and think at least one of you isn't town aligned) I can tell you now that you can discuss it all you want, but I won't be vigging who the town picks because the town picked that person.

[charter]

Yes, no more talking about night actions today.
Gremwell needs to post.

[charter]

I just love being a guinie pig to see if Gremwell is scum or not.

How do you figure this?

MM's reads are mostly negative, as can be expected from scum who wants to keep his options open. Two points of note are me being his most pro town read, for a bad reason - stating I've been consisntantly scumhunting, when I just replaced in - probably a blatant attempt to link us, and having Oman at neutral for being a "follower" - which I don't think he has been - which could be a way to stay noncomittal on him, indicating a possible link.

I wouldn't expect cornered scum to have negative reads on everyone. I'd expect it to be the opposite in fact. I do agree with your two comments though.

I'm still pushing the Gremwell lynch, I think he's been way scummier than MM, speaking of which

can we get a prod/replacement on Gremwell, he hasn't posted in over a week.

[charter]

Actually, it seems to me like an ideal thing for the town would be to see if we can get the bulletproof into a confirmed innocent (through cop investigaton or one-shot mason, I guess). If the bulletproof guy becomes a confirmed innocent, then he will never be lynched, can never be nightkilled, and it should really help the town; I mean, having a confirmed innocent who's 100% guarenteed to still be alive in endgame should improve town's chances a lot of winning that endgame, right? I mean, one confirmed innocent in a 3 man endgame helps a HUGE amount.

After thinking about it, you can't confirm a townie from Ceph's masoning. If Ceph is scum, then he can "confirm" anyone he wants.

How do you know people will not change their votes? If you are waivering on MM, why would you change your vote to him?

I spent a while asking people why they picked MM over Grem and got a bunch of BS answers. I think I asked if they would vote Grem over MM and they said no. Why would I change my vote to MM? He has been scummy as hell, even if I am waivering thinking he is scum. His lynch will give us lots of information as well.

[charter]

I would question why it can only be a scum gambit and not a town gambit again, but I don't see the point.

[charter]

Pretty big misrep Yos. I gave plenty of reasons for why I suspected Gremwell, none were "lurking".

By botching I meant quicklynching or something bad. I overstated in that quote (obviously).

[charter]

Guess I didn't actually answer your questions. It obviously doesn't prove them to be scum, but I think it will be a scumtell. Same thing as if I go around shooting town, are you guys going to think I'm scummy because of it? You bet.

[charter]

Kind of, he kept talking about useless stuff we were way past and refused to comment on important things that were currently happening. He didn't give opinions on hardly anything.

Also, I take lurking to mean not posting at all. I didn't think he was doing this, he was posting, but not saying anything (active lurking, which would have been a reason I suspected him).

[charter]

Farside, is the reason you still think I'm scum because you invented me saying your idea was scummy? Or is just pure OMGUS?

[charter]

Farside is scum.
Gremwell is almost certainly scum.
I now give MM a little above a 50% chance of being scum.

If even one person will switch to farside, I will vote her, else it's useless and I'll stay on grem. Will anyone join me?

[charter]

Farside gets demoted to almost certainly scum, just below Gremwell again. Not looking to start a wagon on farside anymore. MM reading is still the same.

I didn't notice that Oman baited her into revoting. Fos Oman.

[charter]

Farside, I explained why you went back down, I reread and saw that you revoted because Oman questioned your lack of vote, because earlier you said you unvoted to wait for Gremwell. I don't see any of your comments I should have commented on that I ignored either.

Oman, you even said a few minutes after farside revoted, that she took her vote off to avoid a hammer. It just seems like you knew this when questioning her about not having her vote on (because she didn't say anything about it in her post).

[charter]

Ok, just saying. It seems fishy to me.

[charter]

Welcome ortolan. Please give your opinions on everyone before we lynch you.

[charter]

See the parallel between this and me?

No, I see two different scenerios and you trying to say they are the same.

This seems an odd thing to say “you are scum" and not even follow it up with more substantive argument for me/Gremwell being scum.

I overstate all the time.

Why have I been boosted to number 1 since then?

Without checking reasons I already posted, some are that people favor MM's wagon over yours for what I think are invalid reasons, and Gremwell's 'gambit' and refusing to take a stance himself, even after it was pointed out he needed to.

Why is the doctor particularly good at helping scum?

Kind of explained this already but, town doctor doesn't know who to protect, scum doctor does. The scum doctor will significantly reduce crosskills.

I question why all your points against me were never brought up before by anyone ort, why do you think this is? I also will wait to point out why other points of yours are wrong until whoever you were asking answers. And since today is probably going to end soon, my top two suspects are ort then farside. MM is being moved way down, because once again, he receives a vote over Grem for a BS reason. Ceph essentially just lynched MM because unless ort is going to try and get me lynched, (I assume at least) he's going to vote MM.

[charter]

Apologies, my headspace has been taken up by another game over the past couple days.

I agree with RR: I don't see how anyone could have Monkey as not their top scum choice. In fact, charter switching his scumlist back to ort smells of bad OMGUS to me. But that's for tomorrow.

Grem/ort has been my top suspect for like ten pages.

[charter]

I still don't get the point of not lynching someone because of their role. Role has no bearing on alignment. If you don't lynch any of the 'good' roles, you're down to about half the people in the game, which is dumb.

[charter]

I know. ML is saying I should cut ort slack because of his role. I don't agree with that.

[charter]

And the other thing I want to know, where does the 'risk reward' thing end? How far are you planning on using that justification?

[charter]

I still don't get the point of not lynching someone because of their role. Role has no bearing on alignment. If you don't lynch any of the 'good' roles, you're down to about half the people in the game, which is dumb.

If both are equally scummy it's obviously slightly better to lynch the polictician, but I'd prefer Monkey's lynch even if the roles were the other way around. Seriously, how is Gremwell's bad proposition, that's bascially the only substantial thing he's done, that much scummier than MM's that's also contradicted by his reaction to Grem and is only one of many scummy things he's done?

A large part of my suspicion of Grem was his repeated popping in but talking about stuff no one was interested in. I also think Gremwell more likely to be scum because I'm pretty sure everyone has said MM is scummy, but there are a few people who haven't commented on Grem hardly at all which is extremely odd.

[charter]

Is that directed at me farside? I don't think I understand you.

[charter]

A large part of my suspicion of Grem was his repeated popping in but talking about stuff no one was interested in. I also think Gremwell more likely to be scum because I'm pretty sure everyone has said MM is scummy, but there are a few people who haven't commented on Grem hardly at all which is extremely odd.

Actually MM has some prime candidates for bussing scumpartners imo, namely Oman and empking. I don't think ignoring your partner is necassarily the most common scum move.

True, but bussing day one here doesn't seem like the greatest idea to me. Town is chock full of powerroles. From being scum in smalltown before, you can't afford to bus. I think the classic just not interacting with your buddy is much more likely.

@farside, that's the latest votecount you quoted. I still don't really follow what you're getting at though.

[charter]

I said no one had a case on Grem???? Where on earth is that?

[charter]

Oh, I think there was a misunderstanding. I was saying that practically everyone has commented on the MM wagon. I don't think the same is true for Gremwell. But as for your point, I'd agree that emp and DP are less talkitive, and are voting Grem. I think both have givin their opinions on MM though.

[charter]

I can't respond to them because I don't even know what most of them refer to. Again there's the "witholding opinion" accusation- I still don't know what this means.

Gremwell proposed the idea to get other people's opinions on it. He never gave his own. I think I asked him what it was and he still didn't give it.

Now I see where the "withholding opinions thing comes from (Post 242 by Gremwell/me). This is a *terrible* criticism, because it is 100% consistent with the idea that Post 234 was indeed a gambit- people always wait to gauge reactions (which is the whole point) when pursuing them. If anything it gives extra credibility to Gremwell's Post 234 being a planned gambit. It certainly can't be treated as an independent criticism from the gambit however, and as such it is scummy that MM and charter have tried to portray it as such.

I disagree. He could have still done the 'gambit' just the same and gave his opinion in the original post. Withholding his opinion (especially after being told to give it) was scummy because he was just waiting for everyone to weigh in so he could give his opinion after he knew what everyone else thought.
I think this point is further strengthened by him getting Fos'ed by everyone, then saying he didn't advocate it.

I think the masonier targeting the BP is an extremely good idea actually, and would be happy to doc-protect the masonier tonight if scum try to NK him to foil the plan. Assuming I don't get lynched today I can at least be of some use before charter vigs me. Obviously it wouldn't clear the masonier, but it would clear the BP.

Once again, I disagree with planning night actions. What if the BP and masonier are scum? Yay, two confirmed 'townies'. Making scum answer for their night actions will cause them to slip up. It WILL happen.

Why does charter change his opinion of farside between posts 485 and 490 even though she doesn't even post between these?

I thought farside revoted out of the blue, when her reason for unvoting before was to wait to hear from grem. I didn't see that Oman questioned her about her lack of vote, so it wasn't out of the blue like I thought in 485. (and I corrected myself in 490)

And as I already said, this is risky for the scum doctor because killing roles will know who the doctor protected if their kill does not go through on the player. Thus if I pursue this strategy and get lynched and flip scum I will implicate my buddies.

Lots of things will mess with kills. There will be epic WIFOM debates tomorrow.

Argument from majority? Because no-one else finds you suspicious, I shouldn't? And wouldn't it be very suspicious if instead of bringing new arguments to the table, I just parroted what everyone else had said anyway? I'm sure you would have readily leveled that argument at me had I done so, also.

That's just asking me a bunch of questions, it doesn't really answer my question.

[charter]

I'm on vacation, I haven't read this, but I killed farside. I'll be back sat.

[charter]

I think popcorn holds people accountable for more choices, and is thus slightly better than random.

Agreed. Also, I wasn't targetted by anyone last night.

I protected Raging Rabbit last night

I am interested that no-one targeted him in light of the pro-town read I was getting on him and the fact he is the tracker (although it could be put down to nightkill-WIFOM either way)

I would like to hear from charter next.

Btw I would prefer if the last two were MacavityLock and Raging Rabbit, in that order, cause they can potentially contradict people's claims if they're lying (and otherwise the people in question will know in advance to nominate an alternative lie).

How do you know no one targetted him?

Ort you shouldn't have claimed first. DP rolled so he could change his reaction to popcorning once he knew who was going first. We shouldn't have gave that to him.

Almost sure DP is scum.

I think you're following false leads. DP had the same chance as going first as anyone. Plus, he wanted random, which means that he wanted it so that no one had any say in when they went, meaning no one could possibly plan anything.
589- I agree that you caught Empking, but I don't really see it as some scum plan from him. Sure he could still be scum, but I don't see this action as a scumtell.

Charter, why did you decide to kill farside?

I was about as sure that her and ort were scum. I also figured I'd have a much easier time today getting Ort lynched, so her.
600- I actually agree a lot with this.

607- DP, for Oman to redirect me, he would have to know WHO I was killing, not that I was killing.
609- No, that's not how it works.

I see Empkings attacks as anti-town, but not really that scummy.
Occam (and everyone) what is your opinion of Ceph? Mine is that he is scum.

Vote Ceph

[charter]

@charter: Why? Also, what happened to ortolan? He's still near the top of my list, so what changed?

Based on RR's and ort's night actions, they are either BOTH scum or NEITHER is scum. RR was my top townie yesterday, combined with neither of their night actions making sense as scum, and by some miracle farside being town, ort has dropped pretty far on my list.

As to why you are scum, I'll get to that later today.

[charter]

Charter, why did you decide to kill farside?

I was about as sure that her and ort were scum. I also figured I'd have a much easier time today getting Ort lynched, so her.

Why did you kill at all last night?

I thought farside to be mafia.

Occam (and everyone) what is your opinion of Ceph? Mine is that he is scum.

Vote Ceph

Why is Ceph scum? Why is ort no longer scum?

I'll post that shortly. ort is no longer mafia because it means either he and RR are both mafia or neither is. I think neither is. I don't know who is the SK, but I don't see ort's play as very SK'ish, I thought he was mafia yesterday.

@charter: Why? Also, what happened to ortolan? He's still near the top of my list, so what changed?

Based on RR's and ort's night actions, they are either BOTH scum or NEITHER is scum.

This is incorrect. There are 3 scum remaining: the SK, the mafia that made the kill, and the mafia that didn't make the kill. RR only cleared ort of being the mafia that made the kill.

Hmmmm, you make a good point. What I said up there isn't true now.

You also haven't answered my question as to why you vigged at all. Actually, another question: Do you think you'll vig tonight?

I thought farside was scum. I think it's premature to decide if I'll vig tonight right now. Depends a lot on who gets lynched and their alignment.

Everyone: How do people feel about "Lynch All Liars"? I have a tiny voice in the back of my head suggesting that someone may have lied about their night action, though purely for game theoretical reasons, not for any posts this person made or other game-specific knowledge. I'm also slightly worried that it is possibly beneficial for that person to have lied both as scum and as town. Still, I kind of feel like LAL is generally a good plan, and want to get other opinions.

I despise LAL. It's 100% not true.

So... Oman's connected to Ceph and acting really weird about Occam, Ceph's connected to emp, emp is the scummiest player followed by Ceph. Lets have Ceph hammer emp and bathe in the mafia's blood.

I don't think that Emp is necessarily mafia (at least not as much as others) but if Emp is going to get lynched, I do vote Ceph does it.

659- Lets not start arguing now about roles being anti town. That was fine in the beginning, but now it's just going to cause headaches.

[charter]

ML, why do we need Occam to prevent me from vigging, why don't you do it?

[charter]

Your plan doesn't make sense. It all stems from YOU not trusting me. I see no reason why the town should support your idea unless they all don't trust me either. You're trying to plan out someone's night action, why should the town get behind that when they don't know your alignment?
My argument is pretty much the same as yesterday when people wanted to plan out night actions. It still isn't a good idea.

[charter]

Case on Ceph coming now. Right now I'm just going on my gut that he's scum, we'll see what I come up with.

[charter]

62- Ceph votes Occam
84- Oman votes Ceph
87- Ceph Unvotes Occam
Here's something I didn't pay any attention to yesterday. Why on earth was Ceph apologizing for putting someone at L-3 in the RVS? There's nothing wrong with that, why did he even get attacked? When questioned, all he should have said, was "what's wrong with putting someone at L-3?"
Oman pushes a crap case for a bit. This reaks of distancing. No one would lynch Ceph for putting someone at L-3, even if his reaction to being called by Oman is less than stellar.
101- Ceph votes Oman for an equally poor reason, more distancing
136- RR sums this up nicely
Ceph and Oman are both VERY quiet around here. Neither is pushing for the other's lynch. They are letting others argue and insert their two cents in every once in a while.
224- Unvotes Oman to look at my farside using craplogic case. I don't think he once mentioned Oman while Ceph was voting for him.

410- Here's something that is making me heavily question Empking being buddies with Oman.

Ceph does some preparing to board the MM wagon.
450- Now it looks like he's ready to board MM. I don't believe he once mentioned Gremwell while voting for him. It looks like he's doing a gradual shift because it's becoming fairly clear that MM is going to be lynched over Gremwell.
506- Goes onto MM without any real reason.
533- Oman distancing Ceph. Has magically gone back to suspecting him when he's talked a lot about ort being scummy as well and hasn't mentioned Ceph in ages.

Day two now
573- Doesn't take a stance on claiming. Odd, everyone else has one.
629- RR summed this up nice
Doesn't give much opinions on people

Ceph, why no action last night?
Also, from this I really don't see Empking as scum, I see Ceph as way scummier. DP looks slightly scummish too (preview edit, I formed this before I saw his vote, if anyone cares).

Something unrelated, If when this game is over, ort is scum I will be so pissed.

[charter]

Yes, for the reason Occam said.

FOS ML for dragging your whole idea on incessantly. It all stems from you not trusting me to vig. Now it's gotten completely out of hand. It's like you're attempting to find out when Occam is going to commute and when he isn't. Not only Occam, but you just want to plan out a whole slew of actions now. Why do you need to know? No one else needs to.

[charter]

Hardly "everyone" wants to lynch you...

[charter]

Did he actually dodge them or just ignore them?
I would have ignored that question myself.

[charter]

If you saw a guy walk down the street and another guy comes up to him and asks if he by any chance supports the AIDS virus, and the guy gives him a funny look and keeps going without bothering to answer, who would you think acted odd?

RR is obvscum.

[charter]

You serious? Why?

Right now I'm all for making Cephrir place the lynching vote on Empking

No, that was a joke, in response to RR's obvious joke.

I'm still all for just lynching Ceph, but I'll take a Ceph death either way.

[charter]

Emp's last post has just gone to the realm of beyond ridiculous.

[charter]

What do you think of Ceph Emp?

[charter]

I think there are other "not wanting to make a stand"s that DP has done that are scummy (namely his extreme opposition to popcorning). His response to yours I don't see any tell from alignment. The way I saw the whole thing go down went a little something like this
Emp asks DP a ridiculous question.
DP doesn't answer.
Emp keeps pursuing.
DP gets all mad.
Everyone else says the question was dumb.
Emp still keeps pursuing.

I don't see the whole exchange between you two as an indicator of alignment on either.
Would you mind reiterating for me your feelings on Ceph please.

[charter]

Cephrir's recent posts are wierd and don't seem to follow the same thought. Slightly more scummy and he's still one of my big perople I'd vote for.

Charter I asked you a question. It was about you saying that my post in regards to RR's "story" was ridiculous?

RR's post was to show you that you're being ridiculous. The fact that you gave a serious answer is just taking it too far.

[charter]

I'd also like to point out if you are town, and your ability is of use to us, then what's to stop the scum from NK'ing you and framing someone else? Also, how would we even know who you confirm if scum kill you? That would mean ort has to protect you, and I'm not sold on ort just yet, and I would much rather him keep protecting RR. Or ML could block you. A MILLION things can go wrong.

In short, trying to save yourself by saying you haven't used your ability yet isn't going to fly. Speaking of which, why did you not use it last night?

[charter]

I'd also like to point out if you are town, and your ability is of use to us, then what's to stop the scum from NK'ing you and framing someone else? Also, how would we even know who you confirm if scum kill you? That would mean ort has to protect you, and I'm not sold on ort just yet, and I would much rather him keep protecting RR. Or ML could block you. A MILLION things can go wrong.

True. But if I live, then it's pretty conclusive, and if I die then you don't have to lynch me.

You could die, but if you live I'm still in favor of lynching you. You possibly being able to clear one person doesn't outweigh the benefits of lynching you sooner rather than later.

Speaking of which, why did you not use it last night?

Because DP hadn't instilled a ton of confidence in me as to his protownness, and I wasn't sure enough that my top townie as of yesterday (you) both was town and wouldn't die.

Why am I your top townie and why only mention DP?

[charter]

For me at least, there's really no one else I find even close to as scummy as you, so letting you live another day seems like it will just increase the chance of lynching a townie to me. Plus, if the town agreed to some 'let Ceph live and use his ability tonight' plan, there's no way it could go through without scum messing it up.

How does DP's role make him the default target? Just because he won't die at night has nothing to do with you dying at night. I don't know how much scumhunting I did yesterday. A lot of it was taking off from Oman's suggestion about MM. The other half was farside which also didn't turn out well. The third half was on ort who I'm nowhere near as sure as today.

Happy scumday RR!

[charter]

How does DP's role make him the default target? Just because he won't die at night has nothing to do with you dying at night.

Because theoretically, having a clear bulletproof would be nice.

I suppose.

For me at least, there's really no one else I find even close to as scummy as you, so letting you live another day seems like it will just increase the chance of lynching a townie to me.

Even though your reasoning for no longer suspecting ortolan isn't valid?

I'm not anywhere near as suspicious as I was yesterday. Reasons include farside not being scum, and RR/ort would have to be the scumteam and NOT made the kill last night. RR being scum is a much harder sell to me than ort being town.

Plus, if the town agreed to some 'let Ceph live and use his ability tonight' plan, there's no way it could go through without scum messing it up.

MacavityLock is the only one who can screw it up. 'Cause it's not like the mafia would kill me, that'd be stupid.

If mafia kill you then it condemns whoever you targeted. You're not going to save yourself by saying you haven't used your ability yet.

@ML, I've said all the reasons in here before. Why are you so eager for ME to push ort? Why don't you do it yourself? Also, I reread the end of day one, you criticize me for NOT being more suspicious of MM than ort. This doesn't add up at all. And why do you come out of V/LA just to criticize me?

[charter]

RR/ort would have to be the scumteam and NOT made the kill last night.

Again, not true. It's entirely possible that ort did protect who he says he did but is still scum.

He has to be scum with RR still.

If mafia kill you then it condemns whoever you targeted. You're not going to save yourself by saying you haven't used your ability yet.

Wrong. First of all, I don't have any intent to tell the town who I'm going to target beforehand, and secondly it wouldn't condemn them anyway since the town is aware of the possibility that the mafia may kill me. And if they do, great, I don't have to be lynched.

Don't see this as a benefit of not lynching you sooner.

[charter]

Gremwell's explanation is still crap. It's not the sole point against Gremwell either. The fact that Omanscum definately preferred MM over Gremwell (so did everyone else..) is a huge point against you ort (plus all the other reasons I mentioned yesterday).
Regardless, Ceph has been worse overall and needs to die.

[charter]

RR tracked him protecting RR. What about this doesn't make sense. They're either both lying or just RR is lying.

[charter]

Ort is either scum with RR or not scum at all.

[charter]

Good luck there champ.

[charter]

Oh wait. I'm an idiot. I just got what you were trying to say. Ort goes back to a prime suspect. I could now lynch ort today as well.

[charter]

You could have protected RR regardless of alignment. I don't know why I was just assuming you had to be the same alignment as RR.

The reason that doesn't mean much is because it's all WIFOM.

I now need to debate if I want to lynch Ort or Ceph more today. Ceph needs to post.

[charter]

That's fine. I feel pretty dumb about it and you're rightly suspicious of me.

[charter]

For some reason I thought that because you and RR targetted each other, it meant you both had to be telling the truth. I think this part is probably still true. What I got stuck in my head for some reason was that since you were both telling the truth you both were the same alignment. I've finally realized that's an illogical assumption.

I think that you protecting RR was the obvious choice. Tracker is almost as good as a cop, so unless you had a really strong town read on someone (unlikely after just one lynch), he was the obvious protection choice. I think regardless of alignment that you would have realized that doing anything but protecting him would be highly suspect.

[charter]

I'm saying if you didn't protect him you'd have a lot of explaining to do. I don't think any of the other roles can catch scum like tracker can.

[charter]

Are you deliberately ignoring what I'm saying? It would have been much easier for me to have just killed him if I was scum...

You wouldn't be able to explain why you didn't protect the tracker the next day.

and also, I'm fairly certain it's good scumplay to send the scummiest looking player to commit the night-kill- I would have been an obvious choice were I scum.

WIFOM

I don't understand how it could possibly be such of a revelation to charter that me having protected you didn't guarantee that I wasn't scum.

and it's not like at the start of day two I started proclaiming "hehe yer I protected RR, I must be town", it was only in response to charter's argument and continued suspicion of me.

It probably shouldn't make sense. Basically (in my head) I'd realized that you both were telling the truth, or both lying. For some reason this equated (in my head) to both of you being town or both scum. I realize now that this isn't true.

If you had started the day by saying that I'd be all for lynching you same as yesterday.

I maintain that otherwise the case against Gremwell, carried over to me was very weak.

The only thing that weakened it was farside being town. Oman being scum strengthens it, and all of the arguments against gremwell carry over.

[charter]

LYNCH CEPHRIR

Cmon people. I MUCH prefer just lynching Ceph over trying to force him to hammer Emp.

I haven't had ascum read on Charter.

Vote: Cephrir

That's nice. Why is the choice only between myself and Ceph? With no one having more than two votes you don't need to throw an unjustified vote around.

[charter]

2 important things to note here:
1) charter is aware that the SK has the untrackable NK.
2) He admits his incorrectness on the ort/RR scumbuddy conclusion.

1) That info is in the second post
2) How is me admitting a mistake make me a SK?

And doesn't allow for the possibility that ort is the SK. Maybe because charter knows that he isn't?

Cause you can't use night actions to find the SK.

If he's your top suspect, why wouldn't you kill him? Maybe because you found that it would be easier to get another lynch. farside was unlikely to be wagoned today had she survived, while ort almost certainly would have.

Yes, this is almost exactly what I said, there's no maybe's about it.

If you re-read him, charter comes off as by far the most blood-thirsty player in this game. I don't think it's just a fact of his vig-ness. Everyone who thinks of him as a good townie, I don't particularly disagree. A good SK in this setup will look exactly like a good townie. But the other tells are enough for me.

Really? I've had like four or five suspects. There's four scum.

Basically, I'm torn between whether I want to lynch charter, or whether I want to lynch Emp and have charter be the hammer. I'm leaning the latter, but will leave my vote on charter for now.

Where does Ceph fit in?

Your thinking that I'm the SK is based largely off of flawed reasoning.

[charter]

Popcorn again?
Did no action and wasn't targetted.

[charter]

I guess I should name someone to go next...
RR is up.

[charter]

Yay

[charter]

Who's next?

[charter]

Am I correct in thinking that I can't be SK or mafia? The only possible scenario is if RR is lying about ML protecting me and one of those kills was actually made by me.

[charter]

Ok, yeah, I thought that it would possible for both me and RR to be the last two scum.

So... Does anyone have any suspicions? I won't lie, I was going to kill ML for two reasons. To see if he would block me, and because of his ridiculous 'charter is the SK theory'. I had been thinking that he was actually the SK trying to get me lynched by that because (this is how I see it) it's unlikely I'm mafia after yesterday. However, I deleted the PM from the outbox a few minutes after I sent it because I thought it was a little far fetched.

The only other person I was really very suspicious of is Ort and to a lesser amount Claus now. But I definately need some rereading to find some links between Ceph+Oman/anyone. I've pretty much assumed Occam and RR were town up until this point, but I think it's time to not assume that anymore.

I was also going to say something about policy lynching Claus, but I don't think it's time for that just yet.

[charter]

Hmmm, let me think about your idea in class today ort. This also raises an important question.

Mod, can the doctor protect themselves?

I pray the answer is no, else your plan wont work for us because it will mean all three of you are unNKable. (in occam's case a 50% chance)

Why are you assuming RR is town though? From what I can tell, scum could be RR and whichever of Occam/Claus we don't pick today, and your play could result in an almost guaranteed loss (and everyone dead tonight). Speaking of which.

Mod, what happens if everyone dies at night? Who wins?

[charter]

Crap. I just reread win conditions. I was thinking of some scenarios where the worst case would be everyone dying (desired by no one), but I think a lot of them still wind up with a town loss because mafia or SK still win if they go to night with themself and a townie alive. I was thinking I could vig them if we lynched wrong, but that will still result in a loss, sooooo...
I think we have to lynch right today.

[charter]

Actually, I don't think we should do much of anything but rereading and keeping our thoughts to ourselves until Claus has posted a lot of substance. He's been an entire non-entity and to be honest, DP didn't do a whole lot either.

[charter]

Well, claus is only going to be gone one more day supposedly. After thinking about it, I'm not so sure how helpful his thoughts will be. It will be easy to give them knowing the alignment of most of the people, so who knows. Scratch my say nothing until Claus posts idea.

I've definately been throwing around lynching claus today regardless of if I find him scummy too, Occam. I've been trying to come up with some way for town to win regardless, but so far I can get maybe a guaranteed tie.

[charter]

ort, you're being very sure in your RR is town. I've actually been entertaining quite a few thoughts about Occam being the last mafia after his extremely weak hammer of Ceph yesterday.

Ort, can you explain that last paragraph there? I'm not sure I follow it. Empking was the obvious choice (in my opinion) for both their kills. We could have forced one of them to hammer Emp, and when they invariably didn't do it, we could just lynch them. Eerily close to Cephir..

[charter]

You're not Ort.

[charter]

Some kind of slip up from him. Anything really. Though your post is good, I just wanted to see what Ort had to say.

Hopefully I can reread this game today and point out stuff I think makes someone scum or stuff that makes them the SK. Do we have a deadline for this day?

[charter]

Ok, so not for a while.

RR, can you give me (as of right now) the two people you think are LEAST likely to be SK/mafia please?

[charter]

And a brief reason for each.

[charter]

Ok, I was just seeing if you would say me and you were definate townies. Before you'd said I was 'essentially confirmed' which has been nagging me.

[charter]

Occam, do I hear you right? You want me to NOT kill tonight if we mislynch? Can we even win if we don't kill at least one scum today/tonight?

[charter]

Yes, thats certainly how it seems. I really just want to lynch Claus right now. All of his empty promises are adding up and tipping the scales. But I don't actually want to... (without rereading first)

[charter]

76- I don't think Occam is SK. If he is, he has HUGE balls for putting himself one vote away from losing.

84- This also makes me think that Occam isn't scum. Oman prefers Ceph over Occam. Since Oman was distancing/bussing, I don't see why he'd go ahead and go after Ceph if he wanted to bus when Occam would be just fine.

104- DP makes a giant post, mostly going over stuff already gone over. I get a trying to appear useful feel from this post. Occam then points out the numerous flaws.

106- Ceph talks about DP. Unsure if this increases DP's chance of being scum.

116- DP votes Occam. Rereading, it's a terribly weak vote.

120- Oman's question to the mod. Distancing or just fake?

131- Gah, I can see this as more Oman/Occam distancing. I can see it as town/scum too.

134- DP has previously only been (very poorly) trying to cast suspicion on Occam. He finally chimes in about another person when it's convenient (as in when farside comes under heavy fire about not knowing about the SK)

206- I'm inclined to think that Occam is not scum by now.

I'm actually thinking the last scum is either RR or Ort. I'm really seeing nothing in either Oman or Ceph's posts that lead me to believe the last scum is Occam or Claus.

300- Not much new stuff in here. Mostly a rehash of the day so far.

308- Not a point in Occam's favor.

347- Huge point against RR. Calls Oman likely town.

447- I'm done, no way that Claus isn't scum/SK. He's not scumhunting, just commenting on stuff to fit in.

And that's the end of day one. On to day two.

After rereading day one, Occam is my top town pick now. I feel like I could lynch either Claus or Ort right now.

[charter]

And I'm not going to read anymore tonight I've decided, but day two starts on page 22 so I don't have to go looking for it.

Ort, if we lynch Claus today, and he does not flip scum or SK, you are getting vigged tonight.

[charter]

Go for it.

[charter]

Wait, why are any of you crossing fingers? Haven't you all said that claus has to be scum/SK? From your minds, how do you need to hope?

[charter]

Crap. I thought it was RR and Occam going into the night but convinced myself to kill ort anyway.

Great job Occam, and yeah, putting yourself at L-1 was pretty good.