Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I've been Leonardo da Vinci, Inventor on another site. I had a post restriction where I had to write backwards in Italian. It was truly mean.farside22 wrote:
Yes. I never got to be in inventor or JOAT's before. Always wanted the role.MacavityLock wrote:farside, just out of curiosity, was Inventor one of the 3 you identified early?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I'll followup on macavity's point and say that suggesting a bulletproof townie is useless is rather dumb. With a competent town, scum are more likely to be lynched, and town more likely to be night killed. Thus, while a bulletproof scum can be dangerous, a bulletproof townie is very helpful to the town.Occam wrote:Interesting idea, farside. I assume that's the whole point of the supersaint. We definitely need to wait on that until we have a few cleared, IMO, but its worth a shot later in the game.
Are there any roles that are inherently anti-town? Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?
Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:
vote: DP
That reminds me - Mmm, doctor pepper...-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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This is an obviously false statement. Having a player that can not be night killed can be very useful, especially late in the game when numbers can be more important than powers. I'm pretty sure Occum is scummy nowOccam wrote:
EX-FREAKING-ZACTLY.grem wrote: I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them
WE KNOW ALL THE POWER ROLES AND WHO HAS THEM. IT IS TOTALLY OUT IN THE OPEN.BP TOWNIE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.
That is all. If you think I deserve to get voted out for revealing the obvious, so be it.
But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?
unvote - vote: farside-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Okay, so Occam votes himself to try to convince people that he's really town, and then he admits that he attacked without voting, which makes it look like he's trying to throw suspicion off himself without presenting a good arguement to do so.
I understand the pitfalls of a quick lynch, but if everyone who voted for Occum thinks he is the most guilty, it doesn't really make sense to unvote to avoid lynching, if you actually think he is scum. Cephir does look like a bandwagon vote, but at this point I am for more concerned with Occum.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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farside22 wrote:
Where do you see that cephrir was voting on occum based on the votes on him already?Oman wrote:
No it doesn't.Cephrir wrote:
Or alternatively, it looks likeOccam wrote:
It doesn't just look like a bandwagon vote, it's the most blatent bandwagon vote I've ever seen that didn't come right out and say "I'm voting to bandwagon".Monk wrote: Cephir does look like a bandwagon votea random vote.
Now you're lieing. LAL.Cephrir wrote:Vote: Occam for no particular reason.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Self-voting isn't the only thing Occum has done that's scummy though, there's also suggesting BP isn't a powerful town role, and then strongly defending the statement after a logical reason was given that it is.Oman wrote:
You see scumtell, I see nulltell. We're different. I'll review it later, but you must agree that ciphrirs clean lie is a worse act than a selfvote.farside22 wrote:
I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.Oman wrote:
I refuse to believe occum's self vote as anything more that what it usually is: a null tell. Its interesting, but not able to be analysed right now.farside22 wrote:
So you don't believe Occum had a knee jerk reaction to the votes on him? Do you really belive a pro-town person votes themself?Oman wrote:The fact that its a fantastic coincidence that he apparently hasn't been reading the posts above him and then all of a sudden votes the guy with the biggest wagon.
C'mon!
I do agree that cephrir's vote and no reason at the time look rediculous. I just don't like Occum's post or self vote.
you see there are too many variables to deal with here. I can give you one scum-occum for every town-occum scenario you give me. And one town-occum for every scum given to me.
We'll look back on it later, especially if occum is scum.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Well, I disagree that BP is useless, especially with a SK/Vig in the game.Occam wrote:
Where's that coming from? None of those roles exist in this game. I assume you're saying that BP isn't an anti-town role. I agree. But as far as roles go, BP is the least useful of the roles we have. Period. I'm done discussing BP and am ready to move on if you are - my vote is already elsewhere.Anti- town roles:
Janitor
Terrorist
Framer
those are what come to mind.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Well, it's one less person for the doctor to protect, at least. The bulletproof can go scum hunting as much as they want without worrying about scum retalliation.Occam wrote:I would agree that BP isn't useless if this was not an open setup, but guess what - it is. Everyone knows you're BP. No surprises. People just aren't going to try to kill you at night - they'll kill someone else.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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If people are randomly town or scum, that means the vig could be scum, which would be essentially a pro-scum SK.farside22 wrote:Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Also, it should be noted that since Occum voted for Ceph, it is unlikely that they are both scum. That means either they are both town, Occum is scum and Ceph is town, or Ceph is scum and Occum is town. Since they have both exhibited questionable behavior, I think the first scenario is unlikely, I think they are on opposite teams. That means if we lynch one and they are town, then we can lynch the other one day 2(unless better info comes along), and they will likely be scum.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Oman's right, this isn't necessarily true.charter wrote:MonkeyMan576 wrote:Also, it should be noted that since Occum voted for Ceph, it is unlikely that they are both scum. That means either they are both town, Occum is scum and Ceph is town, or Ceph is scum and Occum is town. Since they have both exhibited questionable behavior, I think the first scenario is unlikely, I think they are on opposite teams. That means if we lynch one and they are town, then we can lynch the other one day 2(unless better info comes along), and they will likely be scum.
Fos monkeyman for pulling the "lynch them both" stunt.
at FOSing a logical statement. I didn't say it was 100% true, I said it was likely, and a possible strategy, not one that we have to follow if something better comes along.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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This makes no sense. I haven't referred to Empking in any of my posts, and gave several solid reasons for my Occum vote.Oman wrote:
There is a possibility I'm wrong. I accept that. I don't think you're scum, but if you are, these two look like scumbuddies.Occam wrote:I like everything in Oman's post except:
Where does "if occam is scum" come from? The rest of your post doesn't really lead up to that.Oman wrote: If Occam is scum I'm looking at:
* Empking
* Monekyman
Also on the Gremwell's "either Farside or OCcam is scum" I believe they are not both scum, though one could be scum and the other SK so its interestingly useless to think that way.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I don't know, but I must have done something wrong to get linked to you as scum if Occum is scum, even though I voted for Occum a long time ago. I'm just confused why I'm getting pointed at.Empking wrote:
What gives you the impression that people are saying that?MonkeyMan576 wrote:So I don't want to take part in Farside and Occum's little argument and it makes me scum? What is it that I'm supposed to take a position on exactly that I haven't done so already?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I'm not being panicky, I'm trying to get an explanation for being FOS'd without reasoning.charter wrote:
That's exactly what it was. I think I'd rather lynch one of gremwell or MM today. MM is reacting horribly to being very loosely called scum. Way overly panicky. Gremwell isn't even trying to find scum, is acting scummy, and hasn't said one thing this whole game.Empking wrote:
Is that, "I acted scummy do get reactions"? (I'm honestly not sure.)Gremwell wrote:
obviously I didn't actually want a plan like that to go through, I proposed it to get reactions, .
Since Oman's 3 sided coin landed on Gremwell.
Unvote, Vote Gremwell-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I never said farside and occum can't both be scum.Cephrir wrote:MM did flip out a little but I don't think it was too bad. The worst thing he's done has been terrible logic (this being that farside and Occam basically can't both be scum). Gremwell I get, but I'd rather not lynch him yet since he's the doctor. I would be suspicious of Empking, but I know that he always plays like this. We seem to have quite a few lurkers which needs to be fixed.
Empking, I'd like to know why you don't think my vote was random. Don't just steal everyone else's reasons.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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So anyone who doesn't want to bandwagon Gremwell is automatically scum? My policy is not to change my vote unless I think the new person I'm voting for is more scummy than the person I'm currently voting. My reasons for my vote are sound, weather you agree or not.charter wrote:
I don't know why you were Fos'd, but you pretty much blew up over it. Also, I just looked back over your posts because I can't really remember you talking very much. You've said about as little as Gremwell. You aren't trying to find scum either, you're just trying to fit in and avoid suspicion.MonkeyMan576 wrote:I'm not being panicky, I'm trying to get an explanation for being FOS'd without reasoning.
I read it once briefly, I thought it was odd. When Oman pointed it out I gave it more attention and realized why it was odd. For the love of god, stop trying to use pointless crap. Try and actually do something useful in this game. Why not comment on Gremwell's utter lack of contribution, or his recent very scummy idea? Why not comment on MM's gross overreaction to being called likely scum in the event Occam is scum? Why do you only post terrible logic and pointless questions?farside22 wrote:
Why did you have to wait till someone else pointed it out before saying anything?charter wrote:Ha. Thought it seemed wierd, but I didn't really read it carefully. But yeah, MM is now a solid number two, right after farside,
Not lynching someone because of their role is dumb. While doctor can be useful, in hands of scum it's way worse. Stop trying to start a lurkerhunt as well and comment on the people that are talking, they've said plenty.Cephrir wrote:MM did flip out a little but I don't think it was too bad. The worst thing he's done has been terrible logic (this being that farside and Occam basically can't both be scum). Gremwell I get, but I'd rather not lynch him yet since he's the doctor. I would be suspicious of Empking, but I know that he always plays like this. We seem to have quite a few lurkers which needs to be fixed.
Empking, I'd like to know why you don't think my vote was random. Don't just steal everyone else's reasons.
You forgot "I'm scum with Gremwell". That holds more water than the reasons right there.MonkeyMan576 wrote:I'm not voting for Gremwall because I think Occum is scum. I agree with Farside that selfvoting is scummy and I am also suspicious of him claiming that BP townie is worthless.
I honestly can't see why no one else will wagon Gremwell. What do the rest of you guys want? How do you propose getting him to start talking?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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To me, Occum has messed up twice(undervaluing BP townie, self voting), while Gremwell has messed up once(withholding opinion).charter wrote:
Agreed.Occam wrote:Roles aside I think Grem's played scummier. Monkeyman isn't far behind but I really don't think we ought to let the fact that this is an open setup get in the way of lynching scum.
I actually want to know why those voting MM picked him over Gremwell. I can see a possibility (remote though it may be) that MM just blew up over getting called scum as town. It doesn't excuse the rest of his scummy actions, but I think regardless, Gremwell is worse.
I'm willing to go with the majority on Gremwell if we need my vote for a lynch, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm letting Occum off the hook.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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This may be true, but to me the fact that Occam has messed up twice shows a pattern, and to me a pattern is more damning than a one time occurrence. To me a one time occurrence would have to be nearly confirmed scum level damning to be overturn a vote on someone than messed up twice, unless the infractions were minor, which I don't feel is the case for Occam.Oman wrote:Lulz, Gremwell's mistake is bigger than Occam's two put together.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I'm not in a rush, but there's no point in my vote going to waste and voting after he's lynched. I can't use my politician power until day 2, since I steal votes during the night, so you don't have to worry about that yet.MacavityLock wrote:
Why are you in a rush to finish off this bandwagon?MonkeyMan576 wrote:All right then...
Unvote: Occum
Vote: Gremwall-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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So far, the two reasons I have heard that I am scummy is my reaction to being called scum, which was completely reasonable considering a reason for the vote was not given at the time, and switching my vote, which I have explained fully. So, I don't see either reason as a good reason.RagingRabbit wrote:Funny, I just gave a whole lot of reasons why you're scummy. And if your only defense is "NOT!", well, don't expect to sweep anyone of his feet.-
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RVs are barely over. Do people "actually think he is scum" at this point?
Suggesting a BP townie is worthless is scummy because it gives him an excuse to vote for him based on flawed reasoning. Self voting is scummy because the only logical basis for it is to gain town sympathy. If you know you are town you should not be voting for yourself. If you are scum you should not be voting for yourself. In short, any self vote is scummy.RagingRabbit wrote:How is any of that scummy, particularly?
Semantics. If you want to vote for me because I don't do things the way you want me to, that's your business.RagingRabbit wrote:Super-weird reaction to farside's question, but I have no idea what it means.
I mean that if the Vigilante were randomly assigned to be scum, they'd essentially be a pro-scum serial killer.
My wording was:RagingRabbit wrote:The wording used in 166 suggests that you thought it was 100% true. So, backtracking?
BFE: In know way did I imply it was 100% true.MonkeyMan576 wrote:Also, it should be noted that since Occum voted for Ceph, it isunlikelythat they are both scum. That meanseitherthey are both town, Occum is scum and Ceph is town, or Ceph is scum and Occum is town. Since they have both exhibited questionable behavior, Ithinkthe first scenario isunlikely, Ithinkthey are on opposite teams.
RagingRabbit wrote:Any particular reason you think this is why Oman thinks you're potentially their scumbuddies?
I have no idea why Oman thinks we're scumbuddies, which is why I was werided out by the comment.
That's not true, I considered everyone else's opinion, and decided that Gremwell was probably the best vote at this point.RagingRabbit wrote:279 is also clearly contradicted by the actual change of vote.
[Quote="RagingRabbit"Yeah, that's not scumhunting.-
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Sorry about the mistake. Trying to get better.
Well, they're both actually true. I DO want my vote to mean something. I don't see the point of keeping my vote on Occum when I think Gremwell is scummy as well, and the town is clearly in favor of a Gremwell lynch. I'm really torn between Gremwell and Occum as who I think is scummiest. I've considered everyone's opinions, and Gremwell's behavior WAS really bad, but Occum HAS messed up more than once. So it's really hard to say.MacavityLock wrote:No, you said you switched because you wanted your vote to be used for something, not that he was the scummiest. Also, the contradiction in 295 is worse, and you avoided addressing it.
Well, I suppose some would try to find flaws in every single player, and some would try to concentrate on those they find most guilty. My playing style is the latter.MacavityLock wrote: Scumhunting is finding flaws and asking about them, trying to dig deeper into the game.-
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If I'm selective quoting it is an oversight. I'm happy to respond to any questions.Occum wrote:First off, MM's selective-quote response is definitely scummy. You can't respond to some, but not all, of someone's points against you. Otherwise it looks like you're accepting those points, which, if you're scum, perhaps you are.-
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He said he would not give his opinion until others did. Even though I have waited to change my vote to see if other players would be aggreeable to my attack on Occum, I have always been upfront about my opinions. Withholding information, even, maybe even especially your opinions, is definatley a scumtell.Raging Rabbit wrote:1. The main reason Gremwell is suspected is for trying to line up kills on farside and occam, creating a false dillema stating one of them has to be guilty. In 166, you did the very same thing, only a bit more subtly, with Ceph instead of Farside and a suggested sencond lynching instead of overnight vigging. Since the core of the idea is the same, what exactly in Gremwell's play do you find scummy?
My opinion on Gremwell changed(for the worse), and I decided attacking Occum was no longer productive. I'm entitled to change my opinion, and weigh others opinions when appropriate.RagingRabbit wrote:2.And yet you moved your vote to Gremwell, despite explicitly saying you don't find him scummier than Occam, and even in fact that you'll be "glad to vote him if necassary for a lynch,but certainly not as a threat". How is this not a contradiction?
I was trying to point out what I saw as a freudian slip.RagingRabbit wrote:3. It was pointed out multiple times that you chose to answer what is clearly not the right form of the question, and yet you still chose to ignore it. Why? Also, why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?
Obviously, committing one grave error is worse that commiting two minor errors, but I don't feel that Occum's errors are minor. When confronted with this issue, one has to consider the problem on a case by case basis, and in this case I felt the other players arguments were compelling, and I didn't feel my argument against Occum was being taken seriously(regardless of the merits), so I decided it best to change my vote.[/b]RagingRabbit wrote:4. How does doing two unrelated things you don't like create a "pattern"? Is comitting two scumtells always more indicative than comitting a single one, regardless of how strong they are?
[/quote]RagingRabbit wrote:5. If selfvoting is equally unwise for town and scum, how is it a scumtell?
If you are town, then you are voting for a known townie(yourself), and if you are scum, self voting is a very forward and clumsy tactic, and you are letting your clumsy play be known to the town, when you should be more subtle.
[Quote="RagingRabbit]6. Are you suspicious of Occam for undervalueing BP's power in the hands of scum (if yes, explain why this is a scumtell), voting early in the game for a weak basis (if yes, explain why this is a towntell), or both (explain both)?
Mostly I am suspicious of Occam for 1) Undervaluing townie BP and 2) Self Voting. I would have to do more research to consider the other two possible scumtells.-
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Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.Raging Rabbit wrote: You're entitled to change opinions, but stating apolicyof yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.
That is my answer. I'm sorry that you don't like it.RagingRabbit wrote:
This is not an answer. Why ignore the actual question? Why are youstillignoring the actual question?
That's the main one.RagingRabbitt wrote:.
Somewhat taking back your earlier satement a about a pattern here, but whatever.
Anyways, what arguments by other players against Gremwell did you find compelling?
If you are town, you do not vote for town(yourself). Occum voted for himself, meaning either he is scum or he has some alterior motive, and is just acting scummy. Either way, a scumtellRagingRabbit wrote: This is not an answer. How is it a scumtell, than?
Also not an answer. Why is undervaluing a role scummy?[/quote]RagingRabbitt wrote:Mostly I am suspicious of Occam for 1) Undervaluing townie BP and 2) Self Voting. I would have to do more research to consider the other two possible scumtells.
This habit of yours of saying something is not an answer, when in fact you just don't like the answer, is rather annoying. But to clarify, if you undervalue a role, it gives you a reason to vote for a possible townie, and then when they turn up town, say, "it's not a big deal because it's not an important role."-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Really, you're reading to much into it. I switched from Occum to Gremwell because I thought they're both scummy, that's it. Now, either you think Gremwell is scum, or you think I'm scum. If you think I'm scum, get on with it and don't be suprised when I come up town, considering I'm the one who caught Gremwell's main scumtell. But it's really telling that niether Occum or Gremwell have voted for me, because they both know that if they hammer me and I turn up town, they will(rightfully) be looked on as scummy.MacavityLock wrote:
Except for the fact that you changed your mind on this "policy" less than 20 posts later. Changing your mind like that is very simply an excuse to jump votes.MonkeyMan576 wrote:
Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.Raging Rabbit wrote: You're entitled to change opinions, but stating apolicyof yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.
Seriously guys, this is getting kind of silly. Is there any point to discussing night actions for Night 1, or is it too early/too many people to make complicated plans?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Scale of 1-10, 1=scum, 10=town
(3)Cephrir - Prime Function Aki-Zeta 5, One-Shot Masonier
*Has been lurking a lot since being fingered at the beginning.
(6)charter - Prophet Cha Dawn, Vigilante
*Has been doing a pretty good job of scumhunting, not sure I agree with all of his logic.
(2)christiano drago - Comissioner Pravin Lal, Jailkeeper
*he can pick a role but not post the rest of the day?
(8)Crazy Raging Rabbit - Datatech Sinder Roze, Tracker
*Has been pretty consistantly scumhunting, though I would like to see him have the ability to consider others opinions other than his own, a little bit of tunnel vision.
(4)Drunken Piper - Colonel Corazon Santiago, Bulletproof
*Lurking
(4)Empking - Sister Miriam Godwinson, Supersaint
*Pretty much following and not adding anything new to the discussion.
(3)farside22 - Academician Prokhor Zakharov, Inventor
*Voted for me even though there is a stronger case against Gremwell, and dropped her attack on Occum even though he was still suspicious.
(1)Gremwell - Lady Deirdre Skye, Doctor]
*Wanted to see what others said before giving opinion.
MacavityLock - Foreman Domai, Roleblocker
(7) - Solid scum hunter
MonkeyMan576 - C.E.O. Nwabudike Morgan, Politician
* - Will refrain, I know I'm town, obviously others don't.
(1)Occam - Captain Ulrik Svensgaard, Commuter
- Suggesting BP townie is worthless, self voting.
(5)Oman - Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, Redirector
*follower aka Empking-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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'Occam wrote:Appeal to Emotion:
Monkey really doesn't have solid answers to the questions directed towards him or the points raised against him. He's fallen back on making it look like we're just using him to check if Gremwell's scum when it's clear to anyone actually reading that the case against him is much more than that.I just love being a guinie pig to see if Gremwell is scum or not.
I'd really be surprised if Monkey isn't scum. Whether or not Gremwell is scum doesn't necessarily hinge on Monkey being scum, either, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. They could both be scum, like I said, and it wouldn't surprise me, as I've said many times, but the cases against both Grem and Monkey are independent of one another, so I think its worth noting that Monkey himself brought this up.
Occum is just trying to mask his own scummy behavior. There's no solid case against me and everyone knows it. All I ask is that if I'm lynched, when I come up town you look at those that drove my lynch.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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Cephrir wrote:
...That's not true, and you know it.Monkey wrote:There's no solid case against me and everyone knows it.
The primary case against me is my "reaction" to being voted on without any reason and switching my vote to someone I actually believe to be scummy, so my point is the case against me is very thin and I'm a townie through and through. It's not like my power can be used for scum without being obvious.-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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There's no point in taking questions for someone who's not open minded to your alliance. The point of questioning is to determine if someone is innocent or guilty, not to lay trap after trap until something sticks. I'll have more than enough opportunities to prove my towniness in the future.Raging Rabbit wrote:You have a very creative way of interperting posts.
Serisouly, if you're a townie, why not supply us this info?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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I point out that with Occum and Gremwell, two people I have pointed out as scummy, having not voted for me yet, and me being at L-2, that they would have enough votes by themselves to hammer me. Then Occum(predictably) votes for me, saying he wants to "see what happens", clearly implying that he wants to see if Gremwell will vote for me or not not. To me, Occum is trying to cover his losses, since he can always say voting at L-2 for a townie is not as scummy as voting for L-1 for a townie. In actuality, however, this seems to be a variation on appeal to probability, and nearly just as scummy as Gremwell's potential hammer(which can't be done now with Farside's unvote). In actuality, it might be MORE scummy, because it relies on two scummy actions, the vote itself, and the appeal to probability.Charger wrote:How do you figure this?-
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MonkeyMan576 Jack of All Trades
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