Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Yo. Confirming that we are in the house. We'll be reading and posting our thoughts within the week.

-Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

DAMMIT. I think Patrick must have passed out from exhaustion while watching one of his shows. I wanted to post tonight too. =(

We'll probably get our first game-related post in tomorrow after we converge (I'm done with my read, and I think he is too). I got some juicy stuff that you just might be interested in reading too.

-Incog1337o

[Flask of Pestilence]

Ok, I've read the game. I usually do player by player when replacing in; but in this case I've only done half of them so far. The players I talk about in this post are the ones that caught my attention the most; I'll probably comment on others tomorrow but none of them look urgently scummy. (This post is 99% from me, Patrick).

So, thoughts:

Tarhalindur

: A great deal of what he's said seems way off base to me. I don't really agree with his first vote for KingEnigma, who I thought took a clear enough stance on Elmo's "bullying" to not be wishy washy. But I guess it was early in the game, so this vote was acceptable. His next post about KingEnigmna is a bit odd - seems like he corrects some of the guy's logic without really showing why he's scummy.

Wait a minute... you're summarizing game events and not actually saying who you think is scum? Information Instead of Analysis, anyone? FoS: Timeater

This is provably false. Timeater took several distinct stances in his post - he likes Elmo, doesn't like Tarhalindur, says iamasername is a little overzealous and says Elmo is reading too much into KingEnigmas's refusal to random vote, which was one of the major issues in the game at the time. No idea what Tarhalindur is on here.

Tarhalindur suspects Elmo, which I don't really agree with, but I'll cover more in my Elmo section. Then follows his massive attack on Timeater. The latter never responded to the pbp, and whilst I can't tell what my predecessor was thinking, I'll comment on some of the parts I think are most noteworthy.

1) Fishing is bad, mmkay?

2) Your "seriously considering voting for you" sounds like you're trying to leave yourself a way to wiggle yourself out of the logical conclusion (yes) if you came under fire for it.

Where was the fishing?
Point (2) is a reach. Many players, especially inexperienced ones, are conservative with their votes. He's made his feelings clear about your alignment, I don't see why he needs hassling to vote immediately. At most I could see a playstyle lecture along the lines of, "you should always have your vote somewhere, it's your best weapon, use it etc etc." but I don't see how it's scummy. I myself don't often take a while to decide where to put my vote.

Then why didn't you vote him in this post? I know from your later posts that you wanted to wait for a few other players to post, but are there any other reasons why you wouldn't vote for him (since he did seem to be the player you thought was most likely to be scum) while you were waiting for other players to post? (Note that I have difficulty accepting "I'm waiting for other players to post" as a valid defense for not voting - it's too easy for scum to use that loophole to just avoid taking any positions at all.)

Same sort of thing. The guy took a position; he said there's a good chance Fark is scum. And yet, it's obvious he was considering you for a vote as well, as we can see from his comments the page before. I don't see why he has to decide on a vote yet. "Taking no positions at all" doesn't apply.

Why is it that when Elmo asks questions, he's being proactive, but when I ask questions I'm divisive and scum?

This is a fair question that I don't think Timeater responded too. It's clear that he had some reasons to dislike you that didn't apply to Elmo.

Farkshinsoup offered a qualification/explanation for his answer that does a good job of showing why his earlier actions were pro-town. Not only do you fail to show how his explanation is invalid, you instead simply attack him again for the original attack when he had already shown how that attack was invalid. That's not scumhunting, that is throwing dirt... and that's scummy as all hell.

I don't jive with Timeater's attack of Fark either, although I think this accusation is overblown.

Also, I can't really accept your argument that the game should be "fair" when there is an inherent reason why some players will be singled out (namely, that they are acting scummily and thus more likely to be scum), and I don't see how game balance concerns affect that fact. If we treat all players equally, how are we supposed to have better-than-random odds of lynching scum?

Is this an attack?

Ok, I'm going to leave the pbp for now since I want to get onto other thoughts about Tarhalindur and then other players. It might be necessary to come to it if there's something else that needs addressing.

Tarhalindur reading iamusername as strongly protown is interesting. Knowing Tar's busing/distancing tendencies as scum, I'd say these two aren't scum together.

I think Tarhalindur's stance on not wanting to lynch Timeater without a claim is reasonable. It's what I'd do there as well. I think his pbp of Elmo is nitpicky and insubstantial; Tar is an experienced player, and I can't believe Elmo's actions there could seriously set off his scumdar that much. He says he can't imagine why Elmo-town might act like this; I can think of one protown explanation for Elmo's actions and one neutral one, and the suggestion of policy lynching nearly always pings my scumdar. Overall, lots of his suspicions and stances look off base and scummy to me; the only thing that really gives me pause is that Tarhalindur's play isn't similar to his play in Mini 594 where he was scum, and played a lurky and on the sidelines type of game. He's more active here. Still bothers me though.

forbiddanlight

: Starting with CDB, there's not much to comment on. His early vote for fark seems a little off for a player of CDB's experience, but again, it's early. He then flakes away, which he does very often, so not real read on that.

Enter forbiddalight. I'm not really wild about her suspicions; it seems like most of her points are borrowed from someone else, and her suspicions roughly follow most of the popular currents at the time. I think Incognito might have a metagame note to add about forbiddanlight also.

What sticks out the most to me, though, is her recent attack on Elmo. I remember looking at this from outside the game and thinking she was scum, and it looks no better this time round. It just looks really contrived to me - isn't forbiddanlight experienced enough to know that protown players often have very good reasons for holding back their reasoning? Her use of the term "strawman" for one of Elmo's posts looks like an attempt to make her argument stronger by using something from the wiki; I thought it was fairly obvious that Elmo's post was said in a light hearted way due to the smiley in it. I just have a hard time seeing this attack from FB as genuine, and notice she switches over to Elmo immediately after Tarhalindur voted Elmo. Again, this attack on Elmo almost looks pulled out of a scum textbook. Really not liking her play so far.

Elmo

: I'm a little back and forth on whether I consider his early KingEnigma vote to be a stretch or not, but decided it's acceptable so early in the game. I think his Post 138 is spot on and not opportunistic, which I like. His play following this is rather lazy, though unlike Tar I don't think it strongly resembles his play in 594 as scum, where he was more opportunistic and waffly than this. His later, "Kill [forbiddanlight] plz and FoS: Tarhalindur has been labelled contradictory by some, which puzzles me, just looks like he's expressing multiple suspicions. I don't think his unhelpfulness following this is scummy at all, but hope he drops it because I think he's likely town, and we could do with a few stronger posts from him right now.

Farkshinsoup

: Overall I get a fairly protown vibe from him. I haven't really seen anything that pinged my scumdar, nor do I agree with any of the attacks on him. He seems to be actively looking for scum.

MacavityLock

: I don't like this from MacavityLock:

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

Feels like fairly lazy throwing suspicion on both sides of the big debate, and his comment that Fark is trying to tie Tim to Elmo shows he's only skimming, since Fark clarified that he wasn't doing that at all.

His FoS of Tim soon after doesn't smell very good either. Someone can be OMGUSing you even if you weren't voting them before, and I think he's reaching here to turn it into a point against Timeater. That said, his later clarifications make me feel a little better.

I don't like his stance on Timeater's self vote. Fishing for a claim is bizarre, and I don't like the FoIrrationality: Timeater. I think he might have been trying to avoid giving a definitive stance on Timeater until it was forced out of him, and now that he's given it, I'd like a reason for why he feels the self vote stunt was majorly scummy. Because in my experience, you see this alot more from townies. I don't really like this play tbh, I could see him as scum trying to passively support the bad wagon.

Rishi

: I don't really agree with his suspicion of Farkshinsoup's early play. Other than that, he hasn't stood out to me much. He's playing fairly cautiously which I know to be his playstyle, and hasn't done anything especially scummy. I'm neutral on him.

Awesome Pants

: He doesn't seem to be doing much. I've read him in another game and am quite sure he's capable of producing better than this, which is disconcerting. Also would like him to explain why he found Timeater's self vote scummy. Not a top contender, but needs to stop coasting.

That's where I cut it off (and don't feel like analysing more at 3 am). As I mentioned above, none of the players I've left out struck me as urgently scummy, and some read as slightly protown. I'll probably add some comments about these players tomorrow, but this post covers my main suspicions.

This post was written before the latest posts by Elmo and forbiddanlight btw. I've spoken to Incognito and happily we largely agree with each other's suspicions. My top 3 are probably forbiddanlight, Tar, MacavityLock in that order; Incognito is similar but has some extra stuff he wants to post about Mac and a possible Mac/Tar connection.

Hi Elmo

[Flask of Pestilence]

k. Incog here to go into a more specific case on the person who I have the biggest gripe with: MacavityLock. See below:

First, MacavityLock is currently my (Incog's) preferred lynch for today:

I’m actually surprised that Tarhalindur in particular never called MacavityLock out about that good ol’ Information Instead of Analysis tell that he seems to know and love so much. Starting from page 2 we get Post #44 from Macavity:

Yeah, at this point, I think these are mostly votes to see peoples' reactions. I also think we're seeing some rather interesting reactions.

He mentions that the reactions that he’s noticing during the early voting stage are "interesting" but doesn’t expand on what it is in particular he means by this. He does absolutely nothing to push forward the discussion -- he just points out something that is probably a given.

Purely information and absolutely no analysis

. And Elmo in particular actually called him out about this to which MackLock provided a single example: KingEnigma’s reaction that, might I add, happened to be receiving the brunt of attention at the time. Macavity doesn’t even take a leaning scum or leaning town position on Macavity’s supposedly interesting reaction. He says “it’s not necessarily scummy… just ‘pushy’”. So what? What exactly does pushiness tell you about a person’s alignment? You said people’s reaction

s

(I'm noting the usage of a plural noun here) were interesting but you’ve only pointed out one. Which other ones were particularly interesting in your opinion?

Pages 5 and 6

really

set off my scumdar. This is the area of the thread where both my predecessor (Timeater) and Farkshinsoup begin to lock horns. He begins by asking a completely irrelevant question to Timeater about his knowledge of the BSG theme in Post 103:

Timeater, how much BSG have you actually watched? Yes, this is a serious game-related question.

BTW, this is my first theme game. Is it reasonable to ask how much knowledge a player has of the theme?

Timeater responds and Macavity mentions that there was something in Timeater’s post 85 that made him think he didn’t watch a particular season. And your point is? How exactly is that a serious game-related question? What did you hope to draw from Timeater’s answers that could have moved the game forward in any possible way?

Post 124 was really, really bad:

Wow, this game got quiet fast. Maybe now would be a good time to talk about what to do about lurkers. I say we airlock 'em!

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner. At the very least, he needs to start scumhunting.

I can’t help but get the feeling here that Macavity was trying to take some kind of position on one side of the fence of an argument that most likely was between two townies (my predecessor and Farkshinsoup). Not only that, he makes reference to his vote remaining on the KingEnigma wagon mentioning that KE hasn’t done any scum hunting when Macavity himself hasn’t done any scum hunting himself either. Pot calling the kettle black?

So what does Macavity do at this point? He doesn’t ask any questions to his top suspect (i.e. MacLock continues his lack of scum hunting), he doesn’t try to probe into the conflict being had between the two main arguers (i.e. MacLock is sitting back waiting to see which of the two comes out looking worse before taking a position), and he calls everyone out on lurking when his posts up until this point are the equivalent of active lurking. Yeah, major, major scum vibes here.

Page 6 gets even better. /sarcasm

He calls out my predecessor (Timeater) in post 129 for probably the single, weakest point raised against him:

Thanks for the vote count, destructor. Without it, I wouldn't have noticed this:

lol, an OMGUS vote, surprise surprise (didnt see that one coming!)

This was in response to Fark placing a vote on Tim. However, Tim didn't have a vote on Fark at the time. In fact, Tim didn't have a vote on anybody at the time. So why are you calling out Fark for an OMGUS vote when it couldn't have been OMGUS? You may have been attacking him, as is your right as a scumhunter. But still, the way I see it, Fark's vote was not OMGUS, and you intimating it was is scummy.

FoS: Tim

And, not only that, ladies and gentlemen, he doesn’t even bother to vote him. He merely FoS’s! Questions MacavityLock:

• Why does an OMGUS vote
  always
  necessarily have to come after a vote that has been placed by a person on one other person?
• Why can’t an OMGUS vote come after a person points out a few things said person doesn’t like about another person?
  
• And more importantly, in your own words, what would be the scum motivation for a hypothetical scum to call something “OMGUS” the way Timeater did, especially after he just finished laying out a fairly detailed case against the person he thought was most scummy at the time? If Timeater went so far as to already outline a fairly lengthy case (and it was fairly lengthy considering it was page 5 and all), do you really think his “intimation of an OMGUS reaction coming from Fark” to his case really is scummy too? Wouldn’t the case nicely outline his suspicions well enough?
  
• What exactly did you think of his case against Farkshinsoup anyway?

Post 134 was pretty silly. Awesome Pants questions Macavity about what good points in particular he thought Fark raised with respect to Timeater. He points out one of them:

Can you post what points that [Fark] made about Timeater that you like?

Yes. The following is a good point:

(directed at me)I'd like to hear your answers. You seem evasive.

I like how he doesn't bother answering the said questionaire himself but wants to hear my answers and goes on to state I'm being evasive. That just irks my scumdar. Its like one of those oh-so-subtle pot-shots scum take at townies for anything, ANYTHING, that could be construed as scummy. Those little, sometimes innocent seeming "pot-shots" are a great scumtell imo (and I've had alot of success with recognizing them).

This is ridiculous. Tarhalindur explicitly directed his questions to YOU in post 82. (and to KE in post 81). Why would I answer the questions? Please feel free to point out where I have evaded questions DIRECTED TO ME in this game. This is the scummiest thing I've seen in this game so far.

…but doesn’t in any way elaborate on what it was in particular he thought was the good point about it. He goes forward to explain why someone saying someone else "OMGUS’ed" them is scummy but his explanation doesn’t seem convincing in the least.

There are other points that follow these points above, but I think pages 5 and 6 for Macavity are particularly damning. If I recall correctly, he kinda disappeared for awhile too while the game slowed down a bit following these two noteworthy pages.

I’m noticing some really interesting things that are happening between Tarhalindur and MacavityLock too.

I know for a fact that one of Tarhalindur’s most used scum tells is that Information Instead of Analysis tell that I think is like his Tar standard tell number I in his Wiki. For him to completely miss out on this with respect to Macavity just seems extremely odd to me. In fact, the only time Tarhalindur calls Macavity out on anything at all is as of recent where he begins with an FoS and eventually escalates said FoS to an HoS.

To backtrack slightly, as I’m getting a bit ahead of myself as to why I’ve drawn this link, Tarhalindur’s early play didn’t really impress me much at all. I agreed with a lot of the points Patrick mentioned above in his partial player-by-player summary. And considering what I know about Tarhalindur-scum’s tendencies (he has a strong tendency to bus his buddies even early in the game – see Mini 594, Satin Dolls Showdown for a good example of this), I’m extremely leery of whether or not Tarhalindur might be planning some type of bussing strategy here considering the fact that his FoS and HoS seem like continuous late-day escalations that will most likely end with a vote, coupled with his repeated mentioning that he needs to look back at Macavity but still hasn't gotten around to it despite the fact that the deadline has been pushed back.

Questions for Tarhalindur:

• Tarhalindur, have you looked into MacavityLock as promised? If so, what do you currently think of him? You seem to gradually be progressing to a vote for him, but you’ve somehow become sidetracked by this case that’s appeared out of nowhere against Elmo.
  
• Do you think Elmo’s behavior or even my predecessor’s behavior is really more suspicious than MacavityLock’s?
  
• Have you not noticed that MacavityLock’s contribution to this game very much resembles IIOA? If so, why have you not called him out about it?

I'd appreciate any answers to any of the above questions. Thanks.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I disagree with this. I was not just skimming. I think that clarifications can often just be someone stepping back from an "accidentally" scummy thing that they said. Please see my recent Fark-Elmo post for additional reasons why I think Fark is being odd.

I still think this was a curious interpretation. At the bottom of Post 102, Fark clearly states that he thinks Timeater might have some inside knowledge that Elmo is town. Then, when Timeater seems to wrongly assume that he was trying to connect them together, he clarifies it again in his Post 114. I don't see how that can be "stepping back" from something accidentally scummy.

I'd only been in 4 (now 5) mafia games, and only completed 2, but if there's anything that really riles me, it's people who play illogically. I cannot stand people who don't act towards their side winning. To my mind, a self-vote at the absolute top of the list is irrational things for a player to do. I clearly over-reacted, I'll admit that. But it just irks me so much that I want to never see that again, in any game.

I wanted to wait for an explanation from Timeater, but clearly we're not going to get that here. But the fact is that the sequence of events was as follows:
1) Tar had his vote on Tim for a while.
2) Tim does his self-vote "trick."
3) Tar moves his vote off of and immediately back to Tim, which reads to me like confirming his vote.
4) Tim uses this as an excuse to vote Tar.
That struck me as very scummy. I wanted Tim to tell us how his trick "caught" Tar. Because over that series of events, nothing changed except Tim's vote.

Hmm. I wish he'd explained it as well, but my guess is he decided to selfvote to see if anyone would attack him for it (didn't necessarily have to be Tarhalindur). If that was his plan, I think he was unwise to try it at that point, but I don't see why it's very scummy. And I don't think he needed an "excuse" to vote for Tar, given how much suspicion he'd expressed of him already.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Also, while I agree that your post is helpful, it feels too much like a save my ass post. It works today, but I'll be on you and Elmo tomorrow. For now, I'm going to

Unvote, Vote King Enigma

This is so epic phail.

Why wait until tomorrow? If you truly feel like one of Elmo and me are your top two suspicions, you'd be pushing for our lynch at this instant. And are you that confident that you'll even be around tomorrow?

Touching on my meta experience with forbiddanlight: I spoke with her directly after WOMAFIA where she was scum and I was town, and I remember her mentioning that she generally likes drawing scum roles better than town roles because she feels more assertive and self-assured with her suspicions. forbiddanlight-town, on the other hand, is slightly more wishy washy and unsure of herself. My general feeling about her in this particular BSG game is that her play here better matches her scum meta as opposed to her town meta, for whatever that's worth. I could draw from other examples of her town play if necessary, but I think the in-thread evidence in this particular game is telling enough on its own.

In fact, post 306 very strongly reminds me of a similar post forbiddanlight made here in WOMAFIA that addressed a defense ThAdmiral-town made against a case that I made against him in which she responded to his defense before I ever even got a chance to. I'm pretty sure Elmo's post 304 was directed at Tarhalindur, so I'm not exactly sure why forbiddanlight felt the need to step in and respond to it before he got a chance to. I'm not exactly sure what this suggests about forbiddanlight's possible relationship with Tarhalindur in this game though.

-Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

How is it contrived again? And I have never seen good reasoning for holding back suspicions and reasoning for suspicions. Only scum need to hide such things since they usually lack it. And the explanation she did provide left a lot to be desired for "reasons to be secret"

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

Because it totally wasn't a strawman right? So, let me get this straight...calling people out on logical fallacies that they are engaging in is now scummy because it's too "by the book"? What the hell?.

Honestly, I am not going to assume anything game related is light hearted unless it's blatently obvious. That was far from it.

Yes, I definitely don't think it was a strawman. I think he asks the serious question of what smacks of scumminess about his attacks without explanation. I saw the second line as slightly more flippant but still don't see anything particularly wrong with it.

Also, while I agree that your post is helpful, it feels too much like a save my ass post. It works today, but I'll be on you and Elmo tomorrow. For now, I'm going to Unvote, Vote King Enigma

This backing away whilst throwing in a little swipe doesn't look too good. If you really find myself and Elmo scummy, I don't really see why you're leaving it for later; and it's not like you appear satisfied by either of our responses. I also don't like your characterisation of my post as a "save my ass post". I did post some defences because I feel the attacks on Timeater are largely overblown, and because I'm trying to discern who's genuinely suspicious of him and who's making hay, and my post contains a whole load of analysis and opinions on other players. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Flask of Pestilence]

The more recent post is me (Patrick).

[Flask of Pestilence]

There isn't. It just saves your ass . And I'm worried about deadline more than anything. I'm kinda constrained in what I can push given that, and you know this.

We've got a week left, that's enough time to lynch anyone if the case is good. What you actually meant to say here is that you've backed away from this position once it's started to be seen as suspicious, but you're leaving the option open to come back later if it suits.

Then you are blind and I really can't help you. If you are scum (which I believe you are), good job living today.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the first part. Second part doesn't really convince me that you actually believe I'm scum.

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

But even that change in behavior can show a lot about who's scum or not. It's all WIFOM. Elmo's reasons didn't fall under any of these anyway, except MAYBE reaction baiting, and the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy.

This is becoming a theoretical debate, and not one that's terribly important. Whether or not you like it, that kind of tactic is frequently used by protown players. Elmo's reasons could have been any of baiting, having fun, boredom or any mixture of those.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Because I'm busy as hell for most of the rest of this day, and trying to switch lynches at deadline when no one is listening to you doesn't work.

According to the thread's title, our deadline falls on the 4th of November. Even if today is a complete loss for you like you claim that still leaves you with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday to try and convince people that one of us is the correct lynch. I don't buy your explanation for why you're not pushing our lynches, especially coupled with the fact that according to the mod's vote count, there is still not one completely developed wagon on anyone at this time.

What do you think of MacavityLock, btw?

Cite those PMs. I most assuredly did NOT say that. What I said is I'm a better more townie player as scum than I am as town. Please, tell me how you extrapolated these ridiculous concepts?

I actually deleted those PMs so perhaps you did say what you said above. However, I know that I had performed my own research after reading your PM's to me, and what I typed out here is pretty much my own personal interpretation of how your play looks to me both as town and as scum, which still fits with exactly what you're claiming your own meta looks like (looking more town as scum and looking more scummy as town). So no, I don't think what I've written out here is as ridiculous as you're claiming it is.

Actually, null tell for me. I always respond to questions not directed at me when I feel the need to. Second, I actually thought that WAS directed to me, IIRC, so it still is a crap tell.

How could you possibly think that was directed to you when the very top of the post specifically indicates a switch in a vote to Tarhalindur?

-Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Then Elmo puts together a great post on Tar. But, I don't know about his case. It almost feels like Elmo baited Tar and then went after him for chasing the bait.

Why do you feel this weakens the case if true?

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

I noticed you mentioned that you would not be answering that but in post 110 you seemed to drop the issue as you said "nevermind" so I didn't think it had much relevance anymore with respect to your feelings about Timeater and figured you could probably share what it was you were trying to get at.

I felt like KE was being deliberately obtuse and not bringing analysis

or

information to the game. As for the Fark v Tim stuff, honestly I was just trying to sort out my thoughts on the situation.

Yes, but I highly doubt that your placing of a vote on KingEnigma is going to suddenly make the guy come alive. If you felt like he was being "deliberately obtuse", then that means that you thought his behavior wasn't necessarily scummy, just unhelpful. My point was that when I'm town, and I feel a player might just being non-contributive as opposed to scummy, I usually ask said player probing questions and try to get him/her to take a stand in the game and share opinions. I saw you doing no such thing in this case. You complained about it and left your vote on him but never took steps to try and bring him up and out of it.

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

Perhaps, but the main issue I have a problem with in that particular post is your FoS of him instead of placing an actual vote down on him. I've seen a number of examples from past games where two people go back and forth in arguing while a scum sits back watching the two go back and forth and then said scum goes ahead and FoS's one of them for one of the more minor points using that FoS as his catalyst for his eventual vote as if the two arguers are the only two people in the entire game who could be scum. I'd need to look into your past games to see if you're just typically cautious with your votes but yeah, that particular instance gave me a really bad vibe.

Fair enough, to the list of questions.

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

Not necessarily, but you missed those questions that I asked. They weren't rhetorical questions, and I really did want answers for them. Or are you saying that the only reaction that you found interesting at game's start was KingEnigma's and that you didn't find more than one reaction interesting?

In fact, I probably wouldn't be willing to help lynch anyone right now except for Fark and MacavityLock (whose case never picked up the steam it deserved).

I might have missed this in my read but was there another case put forward by someone else against MacLock?

[Flask of Pestilence]

-Incog. lol.

[Flask of Pestilence]

@IAAUS: What is your definition of playing "by the book", regarding post 318?
Same question for FoP, I'm curious to know what both of you think by standard scum play.

Scum like to go after easily attackable behaviour. Elmo's unhelpness there was easily attackable behaviour that wasn't scummy. Obviously you can have townies going after that kind of behaviour as well, but in this case I feel both forbiddanlight and Tarhalindur are experienced enough to know better. I'm especially curious as to how Tarhalindur explains himself, actually, since I'm certain he's come across townies behaving in strange and unhelpful ways (for example: Glorktown in the already mentioned Mini 594 -- and Elmo's unhelpfulness here was nothing by comparison).

[Flask of Pestilence]

And I forgot to sign it again. That was Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Ugh, why do I keep forgetting to post this? I think Tar's bussing tendencies are best dealt with simply by not ruling anything out... if I were in his shoes, I'd seriously consider going strongly the other way and rampantly defending a buddy early, hoping the meta from Satin Doll (perhaps a fairly widely read game, I don't know) would swing it the other way.

This is actually something that I had been thinking about also, especially considering the fact that he specifically pointed to this tendency of his during post-game.

Speaking of Tar, where's he been lately?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Quick check in from me, my order of suspicions is still forbiddanlight, Tar, MacavityLock. FB and Tar are fairly close, and the difference is mainly that forbiddanlight's reactions have been scummy (distinct from scumminess I pointed out in my first post). MacavityLock is a more distant third for me. Not sure how Incognito's order looks right now, but we'll probably be able to chat about it later. I've looked at KingEnigma and don't really see a strong case against him; certainly nothing that I think compares to the evidence against Tar/FB.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

How does the Flask being two players thing work?
do they talk to each other before they post (like a mason ability) but only speak with one account? or will we be seeing a power struggle between them if they disagree about someone?

Patrick and I each read the game on our own and took down our own notes. After we finished our reads, we brought our notes together to see what our conclusions were. Our top three suspects (forbiddanlight, Tarhalindur, and MacavityLock) were exactly the same only in different orders. We then began posting.

From that point on, we've been discussing the game together to see how we still feel about things as they arise. So no, I don't think you'll see a power struggle lol.

I should note that while my top three still remains the same, I feel myself shifting MacLock down a bit from my (Incog's) number one spot. That's all for now. Eagerly awaiting content from the people who owe us posts~

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

What evidence? The BS case about how we jumped on Elmo? yeah..right.

Fortunately your approval of the case isn't required for us to lynch you.

[Flask of Pestilence]

So because he said "go town!" at the end of his post, you guys are both trying to say this makes you think he's (I'm) more likely to be town?

@forbiddanlight

in particular: I'm pretty sure my hammer gambit that I pulled in WOMAFIA on Lord Gurgi is relatively comparable to this, and you didn't use that as a reason to pull away from your LG "suspicions". You look like you're just begging for reasons to not have to make a contrived case against us.

- Incog

[Flask of Pestilence]

So when do you plan on focusing here? Our deadline's not on New Year's Day, ya know.

[Flask of Pestilence]

So because he said "go town!" at the end of his post, you guys are both trying to say this makes you think he's (I'm) more likely to be town?

I've never seen anything like that happen in games I've read before, and just don't know how to react.

NG 581 - Snailman-scum pulled a "go town!" type of thing as scum in that game and because I genuinely felt like he was scum in that game, I never really backed my suspicions down off of him (he remained my top suspect number 2). I'm not saying Timeater was lying here but if you both truly had genuine suspicions about me, I really don't think you would just back off that easily because of that one post.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Happy birthday, des!

- Incog

Thanks! =) - desMod

[Flask of Pestilence]

(& Patrick) x_x

[Flask of Pestilence]

Tar would be quite capable of breadcrumbing to set up a fakeclaim like this as scum, and I'm still wary, but barring a counterclaim, I think forbiddanlight would be a safer lynch.

Unvote, Vote: forbiddanlight.

Neither myself or Incog are familiar with the theme, and the wiki didn't seem to help much, so if there's some major flavour issue with his claim, point it out. Despite the unvote, I still want Tar to explain himself on several of the issues he didn't address in his last.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Interesting. FL, what do you think of Tar's claim?

[Flask of Pestilence]

Deadline's closer than I thought. After talking this through with Incognito, we've decided to come forward with this. I think forbiddanlight is very likely telling the truth. The wording of the claim and the way she carried it out matches up very well with my role; if she's scum faking it, then scum must have safeclaims down to the word. Even if that's possible, the confusion doesn't seem feigned.

After looking up some stuff on the theme, we've got a theory about how the game works. We think it contains both humans and cylons, most of which can co-exist peacefully, but that the scumgroup doesn't share that goal and wants the humans and cylons to kill each other (or at the least, not exist in peace). I notice the huge amount of lurking lately; there's like at least 3 people been online after the claim and not commented on it, and Awesome Pants is blatantly lurking in plain sight. We need people actually doing stuff.

Unvote, Vote: MacavityLock

[Flask of Pestilence]

2) I am a cylon, but I have no reason to believe I am part of an informed minority.

Patrick and I are this. We are a cylon, but we have no reason to believe that we're part of an informed minority.

Flask: Do you want me to say what I am thinking?

I think you should probably hold off on that until everyone gets there limited claims in and then maybe go into it a bit further afterwards.

As for AP's 399, I, too, didn't like it very much. I'd rather not go into the reasons why I don't like it just yet since again, I'd like the limited claims to continue before explaining my own personal reasoning for not liking it.

I don't like FoP's softclaim in 398. Not sure why. I guess I don't like unnecessary softclaims. I've seen them used by scum just as much as town.

Can you go into this a bit further? This doesn't really say much and actually seems somewhat wishy-washy as you seem to lament that you just don't like softclaims in general for some unknown reason but then you come to the conclusion that you see them being used equally in town and scum. What is it that you don't like about our particular hint in 398?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Tarhalindur is lurking.

FoP, I get the feeling you're just moving your vote around your top suspects to try to get claims from everyone you can. That disturbs me.

Tarhalindur's claim is far from confirmed, but I'm leary of lynching uncounterclaimed information roles on day 1, so I moved to forbiddanlight. She's produced something that leads me to believe she's genuine. In light of that, it seems logical to move my vote to another suspect. Do you disagree with that? Otherwise this just seems like an attempt to discredit.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Hi, camn and welcome to the game.

2. I don't know WTF is going on with FlaskofPestilence.. can someone explain? 2 people? one account? Could you guys, like, color-code your posts or something?

Yes, we're a hydra of

Incognito

and

Patrick

. Do you really feel the color-coding is necessary? For the most part we share similar thoughts and have the same role PM but sometimes he's the one doing the posting and sometimes I'm the one doing the posting. We mainly did this due to time constraints - I can't handle too many games right now and neither could Patrick, but we wanted to help destructor out with the replacing so we did the Hydra to help consolidate our own personal time issues.

I guess I’m not sure why you were being evasive at first.

We just weren't sure initially how we should come forward with our information. I still have my thoughts about what the set-up could look like, and I know that I had one particular theory about the set-up that made me think coming forward might have done more harm than good, but we eventually decided to just come forward in some way anyway expressing our thoughts about forbiddanlight's role claim and its relationship to us.

I'm really sort of stuck for where to go now; I've got an unusually long list of people I

don't

want to lynch for D1, but no one at all that I have any particular desire to see dead.

Have you read over MacavityLock or the case against him? What do you think of it?

[Flask of Pestilence]

One theory of mine is that the whole distrust between humans and cylons is a red herring to distract us. We already have 5 cylon claims and 5 non-cylon claims; clearly no single group can be entirely scum. We've had some useful info from this, but let's not forget to scumhunt too; I highly doubt des would make a game that could be easily broken by just assessing claims.

@Rishi, how can you say Flask was being evasive? We came forward of our own accord.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

As for KE's scumminess, a lot of it might come down to playstyle, but he pretty much refused to help the town during his stay here. username's point about the fact that KE lurked his way out of getting votes is a good one. Remember, my vote had been on KE for most of the day before I unvoted. That doesn't mean that I don't think there was some scumminess there.

I find the vote slightly strange as well despite the fact that your vote had been there on KingEnigma for the greater portion of today.

Tarhalindur has already claimed to be some sort of a Daytime Gunsmith who has chosen to investigate KingEnigma (now camn) with his first investigation choice. You pretty clearly stated that you pretty much believe Tarhalindur's claim. Why would you still push for camn's lynch now when Tarhalindur has already claimed that he should be receiving the results of his daytime investigation choice tonight? Granted, if Tar's telling the truth there's no guarantee he'll survive the night but still, I don't see why you'd still push for a camn-lynch at this current time.

My personal opinion of KingEnigma: I've actually meta-gamed him and his play here was actually fairly consistent to his play in Erg0's Mallrats Mafia game where he was D1 mislynched for practically the same reasoning that people gave to be voting him here. I didn't get a chance to look into his scum games to see how that compares to his town play but yeah, just putting that out there.

- Incog

[Flask of Pestilence]

You guys are allowed to discuss this game outside of the thread and you still came down on the side of being mysterious and evasive (at least at first)? Lovely. By the way, in response to FoP’s later question, the original post was evasive. FoP did come forward on their own, but it still looked like they were waiting to see how things would shake out before coming forward.

Someone being evasive generally doesn't want to commit or wants to wait for others to speak up first; I could have easily said nada and just happily let (at the time) a deadline lynch go through. I don't see why you find it bothersome that we didn't race claim in that particular post; would there have been some advantage to that that I'm missing? I'm starting to think you're trying to throw doubt on me rather than curious.

Actually... hang on. Five claimed Cylons. I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction. Fark claims to be a Number Two, and forbiddan claims to be the last remaining Three... I'm seriously thinking Flask of Pestilence and MacavityLock for scum now. Assuming Fark and forbiddan are telling the truth - two scum seems a bit light, so I'd assume we have another scum who is lying about being human, or Grimmy is the 6th Cylon, and 3rd scum.
Vote: Flask of Pestilence .

Ok, I've just noticed something interesting. Farkshinsoup claims to be a number 2 but doesn't have a name, a wiki search reveals number 2 to be Leoben Conoy. My role name is Leoben Conoy. I don't know anything about the theme, and the wiki seems to contradict as to whether number 2 is a single being or several beings; so I'm unsure as to whether Farkshinsoup has just been caught in a fake-claim or not. I'd like some people who know their BSG stuff to comment on this; today could potentially be simple. I'll keep my vote on Macavity for now, but will vote for Farkshinsoup if it turns out our claims contradict each other.

Also, I'm a cylon who wants to join with humans; hopefully that's fairly obvious from Post 398. I think Knights of Cydonia is more likely to be town because of his unpressured claim and attempts to look for easy solutions, but I'm not comfortable assuming all of the scum are found in the cylons. However, after Grimmy's rather surprising claim, I'm pretty sure at least of the cylon claimers is scum, because my PM suggests there's only five cylons in the game. Interesting indeed.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Was anyone else given this much information about their alignment?

No.

One question: why did you need to search to find this out, I specifically mentioned how I had to search wikipedia for the same info in my post where I claimed.

Badly worded. I didn't search it out then, I was just repeating what you'd claimed.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Skimming quickly, I don't really understand the sudden attraction of no-lynching.

Typo here, right? I assume you're saying here that "at least one of the cylon claimers is scum," yes? Given the multiple copies we now might be seeing, I'd like to ask how this particular clause of your PM was worded (don't get modkilled). Were you told that there are only 5 cylon players? Only 5 cylon models? Only 5 cylon human-form models?

Yes, I meant to say at least one. My reason for thinking that is the reference to the final five cylons.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Patrick... why is it obvious in post 398? I don't see it.

Our role PM mentioned that we believe humans and cylons can exist in peace with one another, and the theory that we brought up in post 398 stemmed from that - our belief that the members of the scum group are trying to get us to think otherwise.

---

I'm a bit confused by the quick wagon that's formed on Farkshinsoup. I mean yes, he's claimed to be a number 2, which is what I am as Leoben Conoy, but I don't understand the portion mentioned by iamausername as I thought his vote during the random vote "stage" was just random chatter. Why does his mentioning something about a centurion lead you to believe this is some kind of inconsistency?

None of us have claimed Final Fivers. Can you please clarify?

Again, this might stem from my limited knowledge with the theme but what exactly is a Final Fiver?

I don't entirely see the appeal of a KoC lynch either. Why would his early

role

claiming make him more likely to be scum? To me an early role claim from a relatively new player usually means said player is overexcited about his or her role and just wants to get it out in the open. Like "LOOK AT HOW COOL I AM GUYS!"

Would you still be fine with a camn lynch too?

I will unvote once the claim has been posted.

Why would you unvote immediately after a claim has been posted? Who would you be willing to lynch today then?

@camn and KoC:

Did the both of you ever complete your reads? Were you planning on posting some sort of a mini player by player before entering the night?

I'm still fine with a MacavityLock lynch.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Hmm. Patrick hasn't responded in awhile, and I haven't exactly talked to Patrick yet since I'm still at work. Didn't we essentially have two protective roles claim (a roleblocker and a jailkeeper)?

I think I'm leaning towards believing KoC for obvious reasons (I still think MacLock is scum), but I'm gonna need to discuss this with Patrick to see what he thinks.

For now a question: KoC, which "him" were you referring to in this post?:

If it makes anyone feel any better about switching to Fark from Mac - I'm scanning him. You can have your answers tomorrow.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Checking in, after skimming my initial reaction is that I'm believing KoC and MacavityLock is scum. KoC just strikes me as really sloppy rather than scummy. No doubt me or Incognito or both of us will come back with some more detail later.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I think Patrick will add more later, but I'm just noting that I'm still very cool with a MacavityLock lynch. I really don't even think we should be lynching based on claim speculation and thinking about this scenario or that scenario. MacLock's reaction to being found out by KoC doesn't even in the slightest resemble town who knows scum is lying; he looks like caught scum to me. KoC, on the other hand, has dropped two straight relatively new player (I don't wanna say Newbie ;p) town tells in my opinion: 1) early claiming which is usually indicative of a newer player who is overexcited about his role and 2) self-voting closer to a lynch. I can't think of why a scum KoC would self-vote unless it was the hammer, and he was trying to limit information, which in this case it wasn't. I'm glad that he's at least shaped up his act now and has begun voting MacLock again.

Oh, I forgot the one-shot part. That takes away the usual reasons for lynching the guilty result over lynching the claimed cop even when you think the cop is lying.

Unvote, Vote: Knight of Cydonia

I don't even understand this post. What does the fact that he's claimed to be a one-shot have to do with believing his claim or not?

- Incog

[Flask of Pestilence]

Rishi, I recall you expressing suspicion of MacavityLock, but not much of KoC. Can you explain why you're voting the way you are? You feel two protective roles would be odd. Is the same true of two roleblocking roles?

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Thank you, Mr. Anecdotal Evidence. You mind providing actual evidence? Or even an anecdote? I've never had to deal with someone calling a false guilty on me before, so I don't know what's the "correct way to react." (Feel free to meta me on that point, by the way.)

This for instance:

Anyway, it's obviously me or KoC today. If you do decide to lynch KoC then:
a) If KoC is town, then I guess I'd have to be tomorrow's lynch.
b) If KoC isn't town, you'll be losing a Jailkeeper.

What's this "if" stuff? If he's claiming to have some sort of a "guilty" result on you and you're actually of the "town", wouldn't you know that he's definitely not of the town? Do you think there's even a remote possibility that he could be an

insane or paranoid

one-shot

type of investigative role that might get false results?

[Flask of Pestilence]

Flask, what do you think of 637?

I'm thinking a lot of his reads are very different from mine. I'm also thinking that this game is way too frakkin thematic. lol.

18 hours away from des's post is 8:58 P.M. for me. I'm gonna read up on the theme a bit more while I'm at work to see what the Wiki says about Natalie.

[Flask of Pestilence]

OK. Quite frankly, the Wiki doesn't help much, and either way, I suspect that if any of the scums are fake-claiming, their fake claims were probably given to them by des-mod down to the T. To me, this game seems like it's going to come down to gut and good, ol' analysis.

Here's additional reason why I think Knight of Cydonia is being genuine here.

MacLock, you mentioned the following theory about the scum:

Now that I'm thinking about it, given my role (leader of my particular group), it's possible that the mafia want to make this gambit because they get some sort of bonus by lynching a faction leader. Just in case, I'd highly recommend that the humans don't name-claim, especially if there's a Roslin out there.

But here's the way things played out directly after you claimed to be Natalie:

iamausername - I'm not going to answer that, and stop fishing for info on my role.

Fark is still a better lynch than Macavity.

Note the orange. If your theory holds correct about the game and might explain why KoC might be fake-claiming here, why do you think KoC still ended up pushing for Fark's lynch even after you admitted to being a group leader?

Also, here's the way things played out in temporal order:

If it makes anyone feel any better about switching to Fark from Mac - I'm scanning him. You can have your answers tomorrow.

From the above post, I'm guessing that this would have been the point Knight of Cydonia might have sent his private message to destructor-mod with his investigation choice.

Then we get this:

I'm scanning Mac.
No lynch is a very bad idea.

Again, further reassurance that he's already submitted his private message to destructor. At this point, he still seems completely oblivious to the specifics of his role (he claimed that he thought he would get his result the next day).

Then finally we get this:

Everybody, stop right now.
MacavityLock is a Number 4 - I just used my Iris Scan.

unvote; Vote: MacavityLock

For those not in the know - that means he's part of Cavil's faction.
DIE SCUM DIE

To me, this looks like KoC had

just

unexpectedly received a response back from the mod regarding his ping and was putting it out there for us so we could lynch his investigation choice. I don't know what time this would have fallen on for des-mod but quite frankly, this whole chain of events just reads as extremely genuine to me and that's the main reason I point out the time stamps of each post. If KoC is scum, then he's an excellent actor and deserves an Academy Award or something.

Now, the only thing that does slightly bother me about the whole thing is why KoC decided to investigate MacLock instead of Farkshinsoup when he had been pushing for a Farkshinsoup lynch at that time and could have just as easily investigated him. This specific choosing of MacLock instead of Fark would seem like a good defense for MacLock's theory about an additional scum plot to lynch the leaders of factions. But what additional gain can scum possibly get by

lynching

faction leaders when they could just as easily kill them during the night? That's my problem with Mac's theory.

My only explanation that I can think of for why KoC chose a Mac-inv instead of a Fark-inv is maybe he felt like Fark's seemingly weird claim at the time would have been enough to get him lynched and therefore he felt like a Fark-inv would have been a waste of an investigation.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I still feel like my vote is in the right place at this time.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Bleh. Forgot to sign.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Dammit. That's me.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Realize this doesn't preclude KoC from bussing, but for now it's in his favor.

You still think KoC might have been bussing Macavity? What benefit could he possibly receive from doing so? The idea of No Lynch was even floated around for awhile which could have easily been an option for him to choose rather than losing his "potential" scum buddy during Day 1 but instead he helped us lynched scum. I highly doubt this was the work of a bus on KoC's part.

I'll need to discuss stuff with Patrick before posting further today.

Just so it's on the record when filtering posts by me.

[Flask of Pestilence]

This question from Patrick is still valid after Rishi specifically chose to vote KoC instead of MacLock:

Rishi, I recall you expressing suspicion of MacavityLock, but not much of KoC. Can you explain why you're voting the way you are? You feel two protective roles would be odd. Is the same true of two roleblocking roles?

Patrick.

Rishi, response??

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Patrick half of Flask checking in, alot of stuff I was going to say quickly has already been covered. However:

What is still bugging me is Flask's assertion that there are only five cylons in the game when we have five claimed and one dead. As I said before, that would imply someone lying about being a cylon. The simplest explanation I can think of is that KoC does not actually count as a cylon for that purpose.

I brought this up near the end of yesterday and Macavity's response suggests it was a flawed flavour assumption by me; we thought the final five cylons meant 5 exist in the game, but he said those are 5 special types of cylon (and I don't think anyone's claimed their names). So it seems they don't exist here. His post is 560, for reference.

Playing chess tonight so won't get a chance to reread, but should be able to get stuck into it soon. My list of people who need looking into is also Tar, Rishi, username; there's also a whole glomp of people who seem likely town. Awaiting Tar's result.

[Flask of Pestilence]

You know, there were other people on the KoC wagon (including KoC himself - the only reason that I ever feel a self-vote is useful is if someone is scum wanting to end the day early to limit the spread of information), so I'm not sure why I'm getting so much attention.

I find this difficult to believe. On day 1 you expressed suspicion of MacavityLock without ever pushing his lynch, which is a common way for scum to appear against each other without putting their partner in real danger. We also have someone claiming to have roleblocked you on a night where no kills happened.

My reason for voting KoC was simple: MacLock claimed a power role while KoC was (at that point) a vanilla townie. Yeah, I found ML more suspicious than KoC throughout Day 1, but we had a situation where we had two players, one of whom must have been scum. I was hoping that, if ML was telling the truth, we'd still have the power role around.

Meh. The jailkeeper claim was a factor, but it still seems weird to go for the guy you think is less likely to be scum. I'll repeat my question from before: you thought two protective roles would seem odd, what about two roleblocking roles? What's your opinion of Fark?

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Maybe something more substantial over the weekend.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Is that Elmo?

It's Zoe. Elmo is the obvtown dude in this game, silly. =P

Hm. I feel like anything I say now is pretty much stating the obvious. I still think Rishi is definitely the play here today not just based on Farkshinsoup's claimed roleblocking of him last night but other things I didn't like about his Day 1 play in general (I can go into this if necessary or if asked for). I'd like Kison to produce something before we move forward with lynching Rishi. I also still think that the links I drew between MacLock and Tarhalindur (Kison) in my third post of the game under this FoP account make him a strong possibility for his scum buddy. I'll try to put additional comments about everyone else in sometime this week but yeah, I just wanted to get those thoughts out there.

I'll be refraining from voting Rishi until Kison gets involved in the game, and we drag more information out of this day. We have until mid-December, which is rather nice.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I don't have time to post anything either, but I'll just note that Rishi is now at lynch-1.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Can someone unvote to prevent a self-hammer? We can probably get more out of this day than this.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

By my count, Rishi was only at L-2 before that unvote, but whatever.

The mod had it down as seven votes required for a lynch when it should have been six since 11 people are alive. I PM-ed him about it, and he corrected the mistake. That's why it was L-1.

@Kison:

I'm confused by your read of Elmo. Why does the way your predecessor and forbiddanlight went after him make you think he's town? You concluded that you think forbiddanlight is town, and I'm assuming you're not claiming scum here... so yeah, can you elaborate on that please?

Also, what's the deal with your Gunsmith ability? You voted Rishi to place him at L-1, Tarhalindur mentioned that in order to investigate someone, he had to vote the person and then submit an investigation choice, but I haven't seen you take the steps necessary to get an investigation off today. So, uhm, are you lying about your role or not?

One thing I've been thinking about is if Rishi is lynched today as a Cylon of the Cylon Mafia, I would think that would lend further evidence to their being only one scum group here and that would definitely lend more support towards us believing Farkshinsoup's roleblocker claim. I think before the day is over Farkshinsoup should announce in-thread who he's going to be roleblocking during the night that way if he's still killed, at least the person who he said he's going to be roleblocked would be cleared. This of course all assumes we're dealing with one scum group here.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

What about this?:

Also, what's the deal with your Gunsmith ability? You voted Rishi to place him at L-1, Tarhalindur mentioned that in order to investigate someone, he had to vote the person and then submit an investigation choice, but I haven't seen you take the steps necessary to get an investigation off today. So, uhm, are you lying about your role or not?

[Flask of Pestilence]

Again, I have been in the game for a grand total of 5 days, and

just

caught up a day and a half ago. Are you under the assumption that I should be rushing, here? I have not conclusively decided who I will investigate. When I decide, I will 'take the steps necessary' to make it happen.

That's not my assumption at all. I'm just saying that for someone who supposedly has this role of "Gunsmith who Day-Investigates people after placing a vote on them", it seemed offly quick of you to lay your vote down on Rishi. I would think that someone who has this role that's extremely sensitive to voting would be more careful with his or her votes. I realize you're claiming now that you didn't realize that your vote placed him at L-1, but I don't see why you needed to place it there to begin with even if you were just using your vote to try and assert where you stand at this current time. Also, Patrick pointed out in his 719 that Rishi had reached L-1, but you only unvoted exactly two minutes after I called for someone to unvote. It just sounds kinda sketch.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Looks like we got another.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Hmm. It seems Rishi was scum, and if we assume a normal scum setup we might have only one left. Maybe Fark should reveal his roleblock target now? If he's town and gets nightkilled, his target is possibly cleared. Fark, I see you online, any thoughts about that?

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I definitely support mass claim. With likely only one scum left, I think we should mass claim to pin the remaining scum to a certain role for the remainder of the game.

Other than that, I think the plan seems fairly straightforward from here: I think we should have Fark announce yet another roleblock just in case andersonw for some reason doesn't flip scum here, Kison should announce yet another investigation, and then we should lynch andersonw. I really can't see a scum submitting a 'No Kill' in this situation if both Farkshinsoup and Kison are telling the truth about their roles; the number of possible suspects would only keep dwindling as the two of them would continuously clear person upon person which would pretty much result in scum suicide. The scum's best plan of action would certainly be to kill at every opportunity to try and diminish the numbers quickly.

[Flask of Pestilence]

- Incogkeepsforgettingo

[Flask of Pestilence]

Hm. I see your point. I meant more along the lines of making sure that both yours and Fark's eventual targets don't match with one another's, and I guess that could be accomplished by just having Fark announce his target and you choosing a different target from him. This allows for more people to be cleared in a shorter period of time.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

A possibly better plan than the one Incog suggested above might be to no-lynch and ask Fark to roleblock anderson. If anderson is scum, he's still screwed. If anderson is town and someone else is scum who tried to set him up, they'd have to kill, which would clear anderson and avoid us mislynching him. We wouldn't lose any parity (10 players down to 9). I suppose it depends a little on what other roles we've got out there, but it might be better than lynching anderson. I can't really think of any sensible way we have more than one scum left atm.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

In that case we'd rack up a bunch of results from Kison and any other roles out there. Even if Kison is scum that could be helpful.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Well, if they're confirmed innocence masons, roleblocking anderson is clearly pointless (not sure why both said they'd be happy with the plan though).

I still think no-lynching is possible; if scum don't want to kill anyone we can possibly profit from a bunch of extra nights, if someone does die we have someone confirmed beyond reasonable doubt via Fark's roleblock, without loss of a lynch opportunity. However, maybe the no-lynch would be better to use later. For now I need to give some thought to who might be scum; both Grimmy and anderson were at the least not on my town list, so if they're cleared that helps us alot. I feel like Elmo and KoC are obviously town. I remember looking back at KE's interactions with known scum and thinking they made him look town, and camn has a non dangerous investigation on her. FL still has the part where she claimed and seemed genuinely unsure of her own alignment; and it seems someone who's received "cylon mafia" wouldn't have been confused, it could be a very clever act but my feeling is it wasn't. Fark has seemed generally town all game and the way MacLock played both sides of Fark/Timeater argument looked like he was playing both sides of a town-town debate to me. In any case his claimed role makes him an absurd lynch today or anytime soon; I'd say the same is true of Kison though I think he has better odds of being scum - Tarhalindur's play still looks awful. Iamausername is a possibility. I should reread and see what Incog thinks, despite the relatively low priority of this game we still need to win it.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Gunsmith immune scum is unusual. The only game I've played that had a gunsmith immune GF was Portal Mafia. It's also been suggested that Kison could be naive; that seems bastard moddy unless there's another decent investigate role that is sane (not sure if KoC's one shot thing qualifies).

After preview: camn, getting a protown player lynched by the town is better than nightkilling them. Besides, if anderson is confirmed town, we know scum did that unless the kill was somehow stopped by some other means. I can't really imagine scum just forgetting to kill.

Patrick.

[Flask of Pestilence]

If scum sees someone as a viable mislynch, they tend to keep them around, not nightkill them. It's obvious that places to hide for scum are getting short, maybe even non-existant soon. And as to the question, scum would rather get a townie lynched because they can nightkill someone imediately after, that's two deaths instead of just the one from nightkilling.

[Flask of Pestilence]

About this:

Okay, actually Rishi being scum is a good indicator of Kison being town. If I remember correctly, Fark claimed RB yesterday (?). With a claimed RB, scum want the person least likely to be blocked doing the kill. Rishi looks fairly suspicious based on yesterday's events, and Tar/Kison is basically guaranteed not to be roleblocked. So the fact they sent Rishi out probably means Kison isn't scum. By deduction, camn is likely town as well (plus town read on her).

Having said that, I find it odd that they did send Rishi out. That implies that probably the last scum isn't significantly less likely to be RBed, i.e. doesn't look much less suspicious. So yeah, feeling pretty good about this. It'd be awesome if anderson was the last one =)

I remember mentioning the same thing to Patrick, and I couldn't remember why I chose not to post it. NOW I DO REMEMBER! I don't think Kison is as clear as the above makes it out to seem. Keep in mind that Tarhalindur had some sort of a V/LA during the weekend that Night 1 was going on. It's completely plausible that a hypothetical Tarhalindur-scum might have not been around to submit the NK choice, and Rishi-scum could have been forced to do it instead. I'm still bothered by the fact that Kison seemed to "forget" that he was a Gunsmith and ended up placing Rishi at L-1 yesterday without giving himself a chance to get the pre-investigation votes that he claims his role requires before submitting his choice in to des-mod.

Plus that Tar FOS ----> HOS escalation on MacLock pre-Night 1 still sends alarm bells-a-ringin in my mind. Just wanted to put that out there.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

c) this is the real kicker.. I get the read that Incog is town, and Patrick is scum. Then my head explodes. Then it just occurred to me.. what if Patrick IS scum, and lied to Incog about their role? Then my head explodes.

<3 This made my day. I'm townier than Patrick! Patrick, of course, was not amused. lol.

I am curious as to how a gunsmith-Kison could have got a negative on Grimmy, who has a daykill.
I'm curious why Grimmy said he was sure about andersonw if they're not confirmed masons. Also why a mason would have a daykill, and obviously, why he used it.

I really want to take this one slowly.

QFT. Not dangerous on Grimmy? He sure seems ridiculously dangerous to me. lol.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I'll have more later but it just occurred to me that camn might just be serious about me and Patrick and NOT joking around like I initially thought.

camn, I was the first one to post in this game which also means I was the first one to receive the role PM from ze des-mod. So your theory about Patrick receiving the role PM, deleting it immediately before I got a chance to read it, and him telling me that we're town can't be true.

I'll give you an A+ for creativity but an F for truthfulness!

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

camn, what was going through your head after MacavityLock claimed jailkeeper? Because your first post after his claim doesn't really seem consistent with someone who's just had their role claimed by someone else.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I've fallen behind a bit.

camn, if you're telling the truth about your role, you have the ability to both protect

and

roleblock people. As far as I can tell, you've only mentioned that you find it odd that Kison was still able to get investigation results. You also mentioned that the scum might have been targeting him during the night while you were protecting him. Why have you never seemed to consider the fact that Kison could be scum and that you might have been preventing his kills during the night?

- Incog

[Flask of Pestilence]

Responding to prod. I'll discuss this game with Patrick tonight to try and get caught up with all of the recent stuff. Really really sorry about the recent inactivity. This isn't like me.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I haven't really read the last few pages in depth yet nor have I discussed with Patrick, but I'll put forth my thinking and discuss two major issue that I think haven't been covered yet:

1)

camn's choice of jailkeeping. I suppose Kison would be a decent choice considering he claimed to be a modified Gunsmith, but I would think the better choice in this scenario would be Farkshinsoup, the claimed roleblocker. I know that the times that I've been scum, and I know that an investigator is alive and well, I'm certainly not aiming to kill that investigator until

after

any kind of protective roles have been taken care of that could possibly prevent my kill from being successful.

camn, why did you choose to jailkeep Kison as opposed to Farkshinsoup?

2)

camn's reaction around Farkshinsoup's roleblocking-of-Rishi reveal. Patrick and I were pretty leery of Rishi especially towards the end of Day 1 but after Farkshinsoup revealed that he had roleblocked Rishi during Night 1, we pretty much believed that he had to be the scum who submitted the nightkill and we were ready and willing to lynch him. If camn had this other knowledge as a Jailkeeper in that she roleblocked/jailkept Kison, wouldn't she have considered that maybe Rishi wasn't the scum who submitted the nightkill and instead maybe Kison was the scum who did considering the fact that her role holds a similar function to Farkshinsoup's?

Here were camn's subsequent posts following Fark's roleblock reveal:

So.. you area cylon allied with the cylons.
Mac was also a cylon allied with the cylons.

There was indeed a

cylon

mafia.

Hmm..
... but Multiple factions...... and No night kill? That would be fortunate for us.. but I think unlikely, no?

Bleh, camn doesn't appear to be dangerous.

In other news, I'm requesting replacement - there's no way I'm going to be able to keep up with this game.

Gods you are infuriating.
I get so happy, and then so angry.. all at once.

It's like you didn't want to take a stand. Or be on record for taking a certain position. Thats why.

I think that, if we have any other protective roles, we need them to come out now -

FAIL

.

Dear Power Roles: Do Not Claim.

Gods this has been the most claim-happy game ever!

I agree that Fark's block doesn't implicate Rishi... PLUS, I don't really think we need to build on that case right now.
We know who Fark blocked. Eventually the scum will get around to killing him, if he is telling the truth, and then we can look at the SUM of his actions.


I know it is weird ESPECIALLY coming from me...... and maybe it was something in his RL, but Tarlahindur was giving me a weird vibe.
I would like to hear a little from his replacement.. (who is VERY brave, BTW! this is quite a game...)


Also... @Andersonw do YOU believe Fark's claim?

c

It wasn't THAT cunning!

But a worthwhile play nonetheless.

Back to andersonw?

There's a strong possibility that KoC was bussing his buddy.

a "strong" possibility?
On day 1... with no chance for a PR claim later on?

this is wrong on so many levels.

a) Scum can pretty much count on a day-1 mislynch. If you are going to buss... why do it then?

b) The NATURE of KoC's claim pins him down as a vanilla townie later. Then, if it comes down to lynching him on scumminess... he can't even claim his way out of it.

c) the mac-wagon didn't even NEED power-support. If KoC was bussing.. he could have just built a case, crap- or -not, and railroaded Mac. THEN he would have looked just as clean.


On the other hand.. I agree with you regarding andersonw.
Plus, you guys lurking your way to victory that other game has made me angry all over again regarding under-posters.

Thus:

Vote andersonw

a) for pressure
b) for not voting last night, and then not knowing WHY that was suspect
c) only 1 post since ULTIMATE FRISBEE ended?
d) for taking a week to "consider" Elmo's questions.
e) general lurkyness

Protective roles should basically NEVER claim.
It wouldn't prove or disprove Rishi's guilt, and would result in the death of the protective role.

And anyway, god knows, maybe the mafia forgot to put in their kill. The whole thing is a thin, thin case. We should be looking for scummyness, not power-role claims.

Rishi.. claim or die.

Both for your scumminess and for revenge from last game

There were a bunch of other posts following these but I think the most noteworthy ones are the ones I've labeled in red.

camn, what exactly was going through your mind when Farkshinsoup claimed to have roleblocked Rishi?

I think a major point in camn's

favor

is the fact that she didn't place a vote on Rishi immediately after Farkshinsoup claimed to have roleblocked him. Judging by the above posts (particularly the ones in red) I almost get the feeling that she was worried about the fact that maybe, just maybe, Rishi wasn't the roleblocked scum after all and instead it could have been Kison (since she would have jailkept him if she's telling the truth) or maybe even someone else who just submitted a no-kill.

Basically, the two posts in red look like major breadcrumbs from camn that might indicate she's telling the truth here. I'd like for her to respond to this post, but I really don't think camn should be lynched today despite the fact that she lied.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Uh, Flask, being roleblocked/or not means who you target doesn't affect whether the kill goes through.

Huh?

[Flask of Pestilence]

I mean that on Day 1, Farkshinsoup had already claimed Roleblocker. I, as scum, would have probably aimed to NK the Roleblocker during Night 1 as opposed to the Gunsmith.

[Flask of Pestilence]

And Incog, your analysis is incredibly accurate regarding my posts. I wasn't intentionally breadcrumbing, but absolutely was thinking that Fark's block could easily have been irrelevant. But then Rishi started playing a little scummier... so that helped.
You can see I actually expressed that, plus my suspicions of Kison.

Thanks. Yeah, 'breadcrumbing' is probably not the right word. What I mean is your train of thought following Fark's roleblock reveal seems extremely transparent to me to the point that it reads very genuine. Like I said previously about KoC: if you're scum, you're one heck of an actress, I think.

Take it away, Elmo!

[Flask of Pestilence]

Off-topic: Am I the only one who thinks of a roleblocker as a protective role?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

I think that that exact post that you've pulled up (388) is probably one of the only points that I can see in her favor. Patrick and I commented on her role claim in our 398 when we indicated that the way she made her claim matched up very well with our very own role and that the level of confusion she showed made it seem like she was likely telling the truth. Another point in her favor, I think, is the way she switched over to MacavityLock during Day 1 following KoC's guilty investigation claim. Other than those two points, I haven't seen much else in her play that gives me a good feeling. I'd probably vote for her today if necessary.

A very strong part of me still, still, still, still, STILL thinks Kison is likely scum. No matter how many times he defends himself against the points I've brought up against him previously, I still get this really uneasy feeling about him. Also, I'm pretty familiar with the type of modding that destructor typically does. I find it really hard to believe that destructor would create a game that could potentially degrade into a boring Cop/Doc follow-the-cop situation, which is what this game would become if both of you are telling the truth and Kison roleclaimed a Daytime Gunsmith while you, camn, would continue to keep your Jailkeeper claim a secret. If both of you are telling the truth, Kison would basically be free to draw investigations in during the day, which would be completely unhindered by the roleblocking portion of your jailkeeper capabilities and then you'd simply protect him at night from any NK's. That doesn't sound like a des-mod game to me.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Post.

Let's go with this

vote: forbiddanlight

.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Grimmy, did you ever respond to andersonw's question about why you didn't reply to his private message last night?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

It's prolly Kison. Camn's posts read genuine to me. Let's hear the result, first.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Elmo's suggestion yesterday of no-lynching with camn protecting Kison seems like the way to go here. If Kison is scum, he gains nothing from this. If not, we gain more results from him (or someone gets nightkilled and Kison is cleared).

[Flask of Pestilence]

No real reason to lynch him today.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Elmo, claim please?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Elmo, if you're scum, Patrick and I have to admit that you had us completely fooled. I don't even know who to vote for at this point, though it probably doesn't matter much since if one of you flips town then the other is dying the next day. Hmmm.

Kison, how do you get a dangerous result on someone who clearly hasn't been killing? Why would Elmo continuously submit 'No Kills'?

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Vote: Kison

Despite the dangerous result, I really can't see Elmo as scum here. I think the links to the other scum players, Kison's claim, and pretty much everything else point to Kison being scum and Elmo being town.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Pst. Just pointing out that he's at L-1.

- Incog.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Thanks, Kison. And thanks to Elmo for not being scum, for a few mins there me and Incognito were dumbstruck, lol.

[Flask of Pestilence]

ROFL! So you really did forget you were a gunsmith when you voted Rishi? Hahahahaha.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Game

is

over right? I'm half expecting a Day 7. lolz.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Ah okay.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Kison, what was your actual role? Were you a Daytime Rolecop or something?