Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[Radical Rat]

To answer your question more directly, I don't know who benefits the most specifically, but I think it more just comes down to having better options to kill rather than looking for a particular reason to spare Titus.

[Radical Rat]

mastina, what if Titus HAD died? Who would you suspect in that case?

[Radical Rat]

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

This is possibly incorrect. It's the only reason I'm considering voting RR.

I'm going to claim now as I think you're making a mistake based on the assumption that you're wrong. I am a bulletproof bodyguard as well. That's the failsafe.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

It does create a strength issue with RR's claim but I still believe him. I don't think scum shoots T3 there when I am in the game.

We are eliminating today, even if I disagree for the reasons above.

@mastina

The other reasons I was alluding to?
Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways.

[Radical Rat]

In any case, with Titus actually claiming publicly, and my guaranteed knowledge of her as Town...

I am okay being eliminated if that's what needs to happen.
Scum can't kill Titus or mastina because bulletproof.
Scum can't kill Any because Amy is scum and my flip proves that
Alyssa/House could go either way still, but if Titus protects the Town there... We win.

I do still think we should eliminate the mechanical guilty here instead of relying on a coin toss, but eliminating me isn't actually an auto loss, so if that's what it takes to get people to believe me, so be it.

[Radical Rat]

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

This is possibly incorrect. It's the only reason I'm considering voting RR.

I'm going to claim now as I think you're making a mistake based on the assumption that you're wrong. I am a bulletproof bodyguard as well. That's the failsafe.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

It does create a strength issue with RR's claim but I still believe him. I don't think scum shoots T3 there when I am in the game.

We are eliminating today, even if I disagree for the reasons above.

@mastina

The other reasons I was alluding to?
Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and

can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways

.

Wow, this is the weirdest wifom wifom nonsense I think I’ve ever seen. But I can’t believe you just admitted that you straight up lied about me.

Where did I ever admit I lied about you? What did I even "lie" about?

[Radical Rat]

I do still think we should eliminate the mechanical guilty here instead of relying on a coin toss, but eliminating me isn't actually an auto loss, so if that's what it takes to get people to believe me, so be it.

It is autoloss if me or Alyssa was shot n1.

Was your bulletproof only one-shot?

That does complicate things then, since in all likelihood it was that that caused the no kill rather than scum poking a claimed bulletproof in mastina...

[Radical Rat]

That's... not at all what I said.

I said I COULD have made them up IF I were scum faking a hit on Titus' bulletproof bodyguarding me, BECAUSE that would have given me enough towncred to push things through.


Please actually read my posts before attempting to misrep them

[Radical Rat]

That is also not what I said. I said I WOULD kill T3 here, but so would ANY competent scumteam

[Radical Rat]

[Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways.

The problem with that is that a failed kill gives the town an extra mislim. You v Amy Dunne is a 1v1. With an extra mislim, we'd be able to eliminate Amy Dunne for free. And then you'd be outed as confscum for having lied. And you couldn't win because you gave the town an extra elimination.

We're on evens now. A no-kill after an elimination would've brought us up to odds again. With a no-kill, today is seven alive rather than six. With two scum left in the game, that means we can safely kill Amy Dunne today and then tomorrow, it's 5p lylo but you're outed as confscum.

So no.

You could not no-kill last night.

Doing so would've been gamethrowing.

Only if I'd claimed the same results I did truthfully here.
As scum with knowledge of an extant protective role, I know that we're only in fake MeLo here, and as such would fabricate results that expand my allowed misses.

[Radical Rat]

I agree with Ircher that the balance is fucked here, which is a significant part of why I thought it had to be Dunnstral scum over Amy, despite Amy's play heavily pinging me.

I don't agree with Ircher that I need to be eliminated here, but as I've said, I'm okay with it if that's what has to happen, and we still have a chance as long as everyone plays perfectly from then on.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, someone just hammer me and get it over with I guess.

Obviously, if we survive the night, do Amy next, and then as of right now, my best guess for last scum is House.

If we DON'T survive the night... Well, I told ya so I guess.

[Radical Rat]

On reread I see something was really off about the Dunn push. That it was obvious you were faking that result but he was obviously a much easier miselim than me. It’s pretty ingenious actually. You position two townies, claiming one of them has to be scum. Push the more mislimable one first, then the more obvious town next. How this isn’t clear to absolutely everyone yet, is mind blowing.

I like how RR completely ignored this post.

And I will continue to ignore it, yes.

[Radical Rat]

my best guess for last scum is House.

@Amy/RR

Who is town in Alyssa/House?

As of right now I would guess House.

Yeah, we're NOT eliminating House today.

Crazy how reads can change over time huh? And I do still stand by not eliminating him today, but not because I don't think he's scum. I just think it's smarter to eliminate the 100% scum and then the maybe scum

[Radical Rat]

Ah, I forgot mastina unvoted earlier and the VC wasn't actually there when I posted that.

In any case, I've said all I can really say at this point, unless anyone has specific questions.

[Radical Rat]

I believed it, and I also think it was wrong to claim the truth here, because if scum were as gullible as I apparently am, we wouldn't have lost here. But now that you did claim that, we're fucked

[Radical Rat]

I also would have fought a good deal harder to live had I known that, but Oh Well, I wasn't convincing anyone anyway.

Turns out hard evidence and an easily traceable consistent story means nothing in the face of "No u"

[Radical Rat]

It is at least partially my fault the Ircher elimination happened though, and had it not we might be in a better spot here... But also I'd be Dwlee instead of Cheeky, and Dwlee is a notably less useful role, so I think maybe that was a good thing? Or at least it would have been if I were better at convincing people I wasn't lying

[Radical Rat]

so the scumteam was just Amy/House this whole time and I got too attached to assuming that there's any semblence of setups making sense on this site

oh well, lesson learned I guess

Yeah see, this was why I was so sure it had to be Dunn, because I had Titus' claim, my own role, and Cheeky's flip, and having a secret double voter on top of all that just seemed crazy

[Radical Rat]

If I were scum, I'd have no reason to keep up the charade at this point. I'm already dead.

[Radical Rat]

I had a great time with this game, until my elimination which I feel was kind of bullshit, but well, that's how it always feels getting eliminated as Town

[Radical Rat]

Oh, if people could weigh in on the experimental mechanics I'd appreciate it:

Persistent scumchat (dead scum can still post in their factional PT) is a low utility but +fun mechanic imo and I don't think it would necessarily be a bad site meta shift. It's also not a major departure from expected mechanics.

Triplicate seems popular, but also seems like it might exacerbate gamestates with thread lag.

Open threads at night seem pretty meh, tbh. I don't know that they're bad, but it definitely didn't see a lot of use in this case.

Persistent scumchat is a definite yes from me. I already think scum is more fun, so the retention worries don't apply to me, but I just think it's better.

Triplicate very good, but y'know. Not really sustainable for every game. I liked having the more varied setups interacting though, and the scumthreads working as neighborhoods is a fun emergent mechanic.

Open threads at night, ehhh, not much of a point imo. I mean, it's a necessary consequence of the Triplicate setup, but it's also not terribly useful since any substantial discussion leads to scum making better decisions on kills/actions. Maybe in a role madness setup it'd see more use?

[Radical Rat]

I will say, the game was made notably worse by mastina misinterpreting her role and not being corrected.

I would have been MUCH less chill about the BP Survivor claim if there'd been two kills going around every night, plus mastina would have probably played differently

[Radical Rat]

Balance wise, I am by no means an expert, so grain of salt and all that, but I feel like my role's existence was a problem.

Because the Town PRs in play were significantly more useful than the scum roles (except possibly mastina), it kinda rewards Town for playing poorly, such as, say..... Accidentally allowing Ircher to get quickhammered, and as a direct result getting to be wagon analyzer.

Not that it actually helped in this case, but even so, feels kinda weird to me

[Radical Rat]

If the votes are separate like that, you're JUST playing three games in one thread.

I would actually be interested in MORE opportunities for the games to fuck with each other, like perhaps cross-game PRs (specific ones, not EVERY role). Say, a Cop that reveals how many games a slot is scum in, but not WHICH games.

Balance would be even more nightmarish though

[Radical Rat]

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups

The wagon role is exactly what I mean by mechanically complex. Things like bus drivers, extra communications, my conspiracies game with an SK/maf godfather traitor combo, games with thieves… basically the games that require a lot of legwork to understand or are virtually impossible to understand prior to endgame.

Comparatively, you enjoy my mutation setups which are fairly straightforward but twisting, like vengeful ghosts with a dead thread that could vig shoot or the game where the scum wincon was that their night kill was actually an escape from danger.

I hope you do that nightmare game again, that one seemed really fun. I don’t mind mech complex setups, I just hate roles that that can guilty/inno a player merely for voting. I feel WA undermines play as an important factor.

As opposed to more normal roles that guilty you for existing? Voting is absolutely part of play, and can be avoided or manipulated accordingly