Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm not trying to quiet anything up. It's not that there's nothing at all in random votes, it's just that there's so little that it's not worth putting a lot of effort into reading them. I was, as QuantumFruit said, just trying to get off the topic of random votes and onto the actual discussion track. Random votes sometimes give us a little information, but not much.VoD wrote:Cephrirs comments seem a bit strong and I dont like his last one about reading into random votes. Yes I dont think there is a goldmine you can get out of them but to say there is nothing ("it doesnt work") to be gained form looking at them and "please dont" seems to me like he is trying to quiet things up.
It was still sort-of the random voting phase, even if it doesn't seem to be anymore. And while discussion can start from random votes, it's usually not from reading into motives so much as from someone calling out someone else on the "third vote scumtell" which, while it doesn't really hold true, is still a good way to start a game.A lot of discussion starts form loking into random votes and many people have cast two votes already and imo any vote after the 1st round is questionable even if it is called random or jokey.
Bit of an overreaction here. It's a bit much to say that those dismissing joke votes as jokes are trying to cover scummy random votes, although from this statement it is obvious which "camp" you'd put yourself in. Besides, you assume that those people made scummy random votes that needed to be covered up, which isn't neccessarily the case. Reading too hard into random votes isn't a tell either, it's just what some people do. The divergent opinions here, I think, are really just a simple disagreement and nothing more.QuantumFruit wrote:At this point, there appear to be two "camps," if I may say so: those dismissing joke votes as joke votes, and those reading into joke votes and saying that they have elements of scum/town. The former could be looked at as trying to cover up their potentially scummy actions and hence trying too hard not to look like scum - because of this, they're scum; the latter could be looked at as trying too hard to appear pro-town because they're going into overkill mode and attacking every minor divergence as scum.
That might indicate to you that you're reading too much into things and scumhunting too overzealously at this point in the game.At this point, I could honestly FOS everyone who's been participating, but I don't think it'd do much good."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It's just an FoS. You basically flipped out and went on or five lines about why you made a random vote. Being that defensive this early on and under so little pressure not only is suspicious, but it makes me at wonder what you'd do under actual pressure."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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A lot of people will take them as the same thing, and they might as well be.I never said the vote was random: stop twisting my words. There's a huge difference between a random vote and a not serious vote.
Might want to fix that.Of COURSE Mogsuggz did not seem scummy (note that my scum-o-meter works on a post-to-post scoring system, not accumulative):
The point is, not only is it just an FoS, but it wasn't a huge one. VoD FoS'ed someone else and voted me in that same post, it's not even like you were his main target of suspicion. Massive overreaction sometimes can mean your emotions are forced.Cephir: How serious an FOS is I guess is debatable, but it was an accusation. It is my policy to address all of my accusations, little or small, and do my best to cleanly defend myself and not leave doubt behind. Therefore, I am usually pretty thorough in my defenses, and it would seem that it comes off as scummily defensive. I guess it's something I need to work on."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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QuantumFruit wrote:Wrong. There's a big difference. I just explained the difference. Random would be a dice roll. Even a joke vote (assuming no dice roll, or random number generator was used) is not random.
Yes, but theywindkirby wrote:As QF said, there is a definite difference between a random vote and a jokevote. A random vote is usually due to a player's name or perhaps because he/she didn't confirm very early (or even because a player is in two of your minis), but a jokevote is a vote that has some sort of small reason behind it presented in a humorous and not-serious manner.might as wellbe the same thing. Because neither really matters, neither is going to lynch someone, and not a whole lot can be read into either. They might be different words, but come on.
And there goes windkirby with the overdefensiveness again. It seems my vote is in the right place."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Alright, as good as that response sounds, I should probably clarify. Your responses are a perfectly legitimate target for additional "criticism", as you call it. Actually, the responses are the whole point, I want to see how you react. And I'm not making excuses to keep my vote where it is, your responses seriously make me think even more that you are scum."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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How is voting for someone who doesn't have the most votes supposed to speed the game up? Are you trying to speed the game up by drawing attention/suspicion to yourself?
@Puppy: I realize that your question is probably directed at everyone but me, but I'm going to answer you anyways. Being defensive, by itself, isn't a tell. Overreacting to just an FoS and being really overdefensive is worse, but not always a huge tell, more of a newb tell. If an experienced player did it, then it would be different. Since windkirby is being overdefensive now, I think getting a few votes and a little actual pressure on him will generate a reaction, given his playstyle thus far, that might be indicative of alignment, hence my vote."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't agree, but whatever. It's hard to read into something insubstantial. Not that that phase is unneccessary, it's very important. Just not for that reason. See: below.Wrong. You can read into a joke vote, or even more likely the way someone responds to it. That's how games basically always start. That gives us something to go off of. There's really no other basis. While I don't think extended periods of joke voting are productive, some is necessary.
I tried to put a third vote on someone and see if anyone jumped on me for it. In my experience, that's one of the best/fastest ways to get a game going. The first time, I was foiled by my inability to count, but I believe I eventually managed to do it and nobody cared.Do you have any other propositions for getting a game going? Because you don't seem to be employing them."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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vikingfan wrote:
Just reposting this for Cephrir's benefit since he hasn't responded to it yet, unless I've missed something. I'm really not seeing the scummy behavior out of windkirby at all.vikingfan wrote:Cephrir, I went through windkirby's posts and I'm not seeing the scummy behavior you are...he seems to be playing more town, at least so far. What scummy actions are you seeing?I wrote:Since windkirby is being overdefensive now, I think getting a few votes and a little actual pressure on him will generate a reaction, given his playstyle thus far, that might be indicative of alignment, hence my vote.
No, I think it's ridiculous, but I know some people believe it.zeddicus wrote:You support the "scum is third on the bandwagon" meta?"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm not really all that suspicious of wk anymore:VoD wrote:Now what I can deduce from this is that Cephrir was the 1st to call wk defensive and also to mention it the most, others saw this also but were less aggressive.....
As I have already stated that wk gave tells very early in the game of being defensive I see this move of Cephrir as a scum oppertune move; that coupled with the fact that this seems to behis only real premise to think wk scum as he made no comments on the double standard of wks vote and the contradictory nature of his explanation.
That's why I'm still voting for wk. I thought I made that clear enough, but perhaps not.Cephrir 97 wrote:Overreacting to just an FoS and being really overdefensive is worse, but not always a huge tell, more of a newb tell. If an experienced player did it, then it would be different. Since windkirby is being overdefensive now, I think getting a few votes and a little actual pressure on him will generate a reaction, given his playstyle thus far, that might be indicative of alignment, hence my vote.
Defending wk pretty strongly, here and throughout the post. My gut tells me for some reason that you might be scum trying to pick up a pet townie, just because scumbuddies probably wouldn't be so blatant, but I've found that my gut is pretty often wrong, so I'll just keep an eye on that. VoD, it kind of seems like you have QF syndrome. You make huge posts, but sometimes they don't say as much as they appear to. I guess that's just because you do a lot of summarizing before you get to the point. It seems to me like you defend a lot of people here (wk, QF, darkdude in 116), but I suppose that could just be playstyle or a tendency to agree with the less ulterior possible motives behind a post.VoD wrote:(I can see this post as defensive but I like the fact that wk can see the reason he attracted suspicion, and I also think that wk has a tendency to overjustify (note post52) as well which can also be interpreted defensive.)
You still did offer some passive support for it, sort of like someone trying to raise popular support for a wagon while remaining transparent in the voting record. I don't think that's terribly likely though, and not voteworthy.darkdude wrote:As said by many others, there was not enough evidence for a serious vote. Voting is not a prerequisite for suspicion.
I sort of want to vote mozsuggs here to pressure him into posting some content, but I also want to get some more reactions out of wk. If nobody decides to help me, I'll switch pretty soon."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Reasonable.YvonneSeer wrote:I disagree. I think it might be likely and, therefore, voteworthy.
I don't really think anyone else cares to pressure wk, so I'll put that objective in the back of my mind for a bit. As such, yes, we can just kill someone.mozsuggs wrote:Shall we just kill someone?Vote: mozsuggs
VoD: A jester is extremely unlikely in a normal game. To the point where you should just assume there isn't one."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Finger of Suspicion of Suspicion of Suspicion of Suspicion or Finger of SOS, oh, SOS? Huh? What kind of subliminal messages are you trying to send here, scum?FoSoSoSoS!
On a more serious note- VoD, is 121 a response to me? If not, why did you post it? Explaining why you said something when nobody asked you = kinda weird. It's also a lot of the same of what you said in 114."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Thatdarkdude wrote:
First of all your accusation does not hold. I did not ever point a finger at anyone in particular. Rather, I first suspected a statement excusing a joke vote that to me seemed like a bandwagon attempt.You didn't have enough evidence, yet you were convinced he seemed like scum from reading that one particular post from windkirby. You thought he's scum but you didn't vote for him, instead choosing to keep your vote on the player who is attacking windkirby of being scum. That is suspicious to me.
ispointing a finger.
Your efforts? You haven't posted that much content, you make it sound like you've been putting in a lot of effort. Bandwaggoning may be a group action, but it has to start somewhere, and that's what voting does. Would you suggest that we instead sit around FoSing each other until a majority FoS the same person? o_OEven if there were enough evidence to suggest a bandwagon, we would still need to figure out who to take out first (bandwagon is a GROUP action). We did not even get to that phase, instead we were caught in debating on the validity of my claim. Then the really defensive post came up, so I diverted by efforts elsewhere.
Being suspicious indicates... you know... suspicion.I don't recall saying "THIS GUY IS SCUM". I was giving reasons to why the joke votes seemed suspicious.
I lol'd. Seriously, Yvonne's (I think, you didn't cite your quote and I don't feel like looking) accusations are not baseless at all. They're clearly based on your posts...Now please state why we shouldn't lynch YOU for making baseless accusations trying to get ME lynched.
It's frustrating when it seems like there are more than 3 scum in a game that has 3 scum in it."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't think you can read much into a joke vote, but the phase is important because it gets us into the game (usually when someone tries to read something into a joke vote). It doesn't really matter though, we can agree to disagree.QF wrote:What do you not agree with? Why? Why do you think that the phase is very important?
Oops, mixed this game up with Open 62. It doesn't help that you're in both games.Yvonne wrote:Woah, hold on a minute here. How do you know there are specifically 3 scum, Cephrir?"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Not neccessarily. A vote implies that one of the following is true:
A) You want that person lynched
B) You want to see how that person reacts to your vote
C) It is the random vote phase
or D) You find that person to be the most suspicious out of everyone.
In the case of D, it's a matter of playstyle. Some people use votes to express suspicion; others prefer to use their votes conservatively and FoS instead; some do both to indicate varying levels of suspicion."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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OMGUS = OMG, You Suck. It refers to voting for someone because they voted for you, basically.
She may be directing the attention of the town on you, but it's already been explained why her accusations are not baseless. If you're town, you have to remember that everyone else doesn't know you're town.
That said, that reaction seems pretty indicative of newb town to me."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Mm-hm. Focusing on one person at a time and building a case is how a lot of people play this game, as well. Get used to it, DD.QuantumFruit wrote:So, you felt like Yvonne was focusing too much on you and not on other players, which is scummy because it's trying to get a specific townie to look like scum and get lynched - yes?
Thing is, there is a reason to play that way, because we then get people to react and respond and arguments grow from that. That would hold if she was still doing it, but I think it was more of a suggestion accompanied by some prodding."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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WELL START CARING.mozsuggs wrote:Annoyingly, this has prob made me more suspicious, but as I'm innocent i really couldnt give a fck.
Classic "everyone voting for me must be scum" crap. Really freaking annoying. Not everyone is scum, mozsuggs. And of course you've done anything suspicious, every post of yours in this thread that's not on this page is bandwagon hopping or expressing a desire to get to night.Whoah the witch hunt is on now. I'm assuming that most peoples real motive is that they just want a lynch and they are jumping on the Suggs bandwagon-i find it ludicrous that I have done ANYTHING suspicious.
Right, i'll trawl through this thread and get back to you.
But FoS AKONAS
Fos VIKINGFAN for talking bollocks and not thinking this through.
"FoS: The two people who just voted for me, Vote: The person who's been voting me the longest" is not helpful.UNVOTE, VOTE CEPHIR
Actually it is. Because you're trying to bandwagon, and you're not voting for people because you think they're scum.Yes, I wanted to speed things up-how many times do you want me to say it?!
And note-i have voted for only two people-hardly the action of a man desperate to lynch a townie.
No, we're not. If you don't read into things, you'll never catch any scum.You are all reading way too much into this.
Explain how I've been "desperate to get a lynch", because I'm pretty sure I have no idea what you're talking about or how my actions could possibly construed that way. I've made two votes outside of the random phase. First, for windkirby for being defensive, and iirc, he had no votes at the time. but I later decided overdefensiveness wasn't the greatest tell and he was reacting in a fairly protown way. I am now voting for you, and at the time it was for pressure, and you had zero votes on you. Your recent posts have definiely justified my vote, so it's staying there.Well, looking over the whole thing Cephir has always been desperate to get a lynch, so he looks Dodge Ball.
If you can explain to me how hunting scum and voting for people who happen to not have any votes is desperate, I'll eat my hat. And I'm so confident you won't be able to that I'm not even wearing a hat."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Probably three, actually. No more likely an attempt to confirm himself by not knowing how many scum there are (might seem like a good idea to a newbie) than that it's legitimately not knowing.Obviously there are only two scum!-use your loaf!
Could I ask you to do something for me? Go back to my post. See it there? 193? Now,It struck me Cephir that you have been fairly keen to lynch someone through out-of course that doesn't mean your scum (i wanted a lynch too,, remember) -but you have to go on something.actually read what I typed.
Thanks!"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Try reading this part again. After you do, respond to it. After that, if you still think I'm scum, you're going to have to give some different reasons because the only ones you listed were false.Yes, I've read what you type.
If what you say is true then great!
But maybe you're scum-who knows!
Also, your continued assault on vikingfan for no apparent reason other than his vote on you is noted.Cephrir wrote:Explain how I've been "desperate to get a lynch", because I'm pretty sure I have no idea what you're talking about or how my actions could possibly construed that way. I've made two votes outside of the random phase. First, for windkirby for being defensive, and iirc, he had no votes at the time. but I later decided overdefensiveness wasn't the greatest tell and he was reacting in a fairly protown way. I am now voting for you, and at the time it was for pressure, and you had zero votes on you. Your recent posts have definiely justified my vote, so it's staying there.
If you can explain to me how hunting scum and voting for people who happen to not have any votes is desperate, I'll eat my hat. And I'm so confident you won't be able to that I'm not even wearing a hat."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dang ninjas.
Thank you.well, maybe i was wrong-it just seemed to me you put pressure on afew people to vite
1) Obviously, I can't read everyone perfectly.I suspect your mistake, looking at your phrase (about windkirby) that he reacted in "a fairly pro town way" might be that you stereo type too much.
Because it seems like you think i am not reacting in a "pro town way"-and yet i am pro town!
2) Actually, I'm thinking you're town, actually. I just didn't bother telling you because you'd feel more pressure that way.
Here's a hint. If you don't think someone's scum, don't vote for them. And if you have no idea who to vote for, don't vote.I dont really think you are scum, its just you seemed as good as bet as any."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Plenty of reason actually.Try a different perspective. I dont like the way you are hunting me down for NO REASON!
NO. You don't seem to be getting the point here. You're suspicious of me because I'm voting for you. That's not how it works. BecauseI was perhaps too generous to you when i said "i don't think you're scum, just as good a bet as anyone else" or words to that effect.
There isn't much evidence that you are scum, but since i know i am town, your pursual of me makes you look a bit scummy.
Thats why i am voting for you.town don't know you're town. You are acting ridiculously scummy, and there is plenty of reason to be voting for you. It's just that my gut is telling me otherwise.
In the game of mafia, people will argue with you. Disliking them personally because they argue with you is not how it works. It's a freaking game.If other people think i am wrong, i'll be guided by POLITE experienced players, and unvote you.
1) Voting for someone is not the same as trying to lynch them. If you had five votes on you, I would have unvoted because I wasn't 100% sure I wanted to lynch you yet, or even close.I might even unvote you if you admit you had NOTHING to go on when you were trying to lynch me
2) I had plenty to go on as you were and still are acting very much like scum. Your vote doesn't mean anything to me because I know that it's based on ridiculous reasoning and thus nobody is going to follow you in voting for me. If you're reasons weren't atrocious, maybe I'd justify them with a response other than "NO"."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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What, have you read, like, every game ever? o_Ozeddicus wrote:Pooky claimed scum in "Choose Someone Else's Role Mafia"
and i think Now A Ranger claimed scum somewhere as well.
My logic is perfectly fine, and even if it weren't, you have no business insulting it, Captain OMGUS.
Yeah, so I'm being a little aggressive. Get over it. I really don't care what you think of my tone, feel free to stop telling me you think I sound patronizing. Disregarding peooples' arguments because their tone is offensive to you is not going to get you anywhere besides lynched."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Cephrir he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I appear to be winning this argument, so it doesn't work that badly, eh? Although the main reason I'm winning this argument is because I'm so right that nobody could ever lose it from my side...mozsuggs wrote:Just trying to help you. if you werent so agressive, you would win more arguments-basic rules of sophistry and debating-no one likes the kid who tries to throw his weight around-he normally ends up on the floor.
Mm. Maybe my gut reads are writing off newb behavior as "newb town" without considering the "newb scum" possibility.vikingfan wrote:I agree 100% with what Yvonne says about not letting newb behavior slide just because it's newb.
Vanilla claim equals not convincing. Maybe people would believe you if you didn't do things like bandwagon for the sake of bandwaggoning.mozsuggs wrote:The even more bad news, for me, is that i am avanilla townie. Not a cop. So you prob dont lose too much by losing me.
The worst news of all is that no one believes me *pathetic sobbing*
Please, don't let that be the lesson you take away from this game. Once you become a better player, this won't be an issue.mozsuggs wrote:If i've learned anything, its not to post-i was doing ok until i opened my mouth. Now i see why pople submarine.
Unvote. I'm feeling really ambivolent toward the mozsuggs wagon, I've been reading him as newb town for a while now but, as I said, I think I've been attributing all newb behavior as newb town. The votes are gathering and I need to think about this."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Wow. I've seen some pretty bad arguments from you, but "you're wrong" definitely takes the cake.mozsuggs wrote:AS i ma town, your entire argument was wrong.
Okay, now you're just lying. Your defenses have been crap if one would say that they evenzedd, i dont think you've been following. i made numerous attempts to defend my position, in numerous ways, but when i got minus 2 from a lynhc i thought i'd claim.existed, and I don't think I would.
The emo attitude is not helping. You're supposed toIts funny really-everyone has disected my arguments, often quite logically, and yet you are still going to get the wrong guy-good for scum, bad for town.
Hence why i got to my (as you say, not very logical) "Fuck off, I'm innocent"-cos thats all it boils down to, in the end.convince usthat yuou're town, not say "yeah, I'm town, so I don't need to respond to your arguments because I know you're wrong, and I don't care if anyone agrees with me". And y'know what? If we were to lynch you, and you happened to come up town, we wouldn't be the ones looking stupid like you think we will-- that'll be you for not trying to get yourself out of it. Actually, you'll look pretty stupid overall if you're scum, too.
I was unsure of mozsuggs' alignment. I'm still a bit hesitant, but I'm pretty sure we've caught ourselves a scum. I've been reading his wanting to get to night as either scum or a power role, and he's claimed vanilla. If mozsuggs is a townie, which I doubt, he's a really horrendous townie and utterly useless anyways, given that he won't respond to cases and does nothing but proclaim "I'm town", add senseless bandwagon votes that only help the scum, and throw hissy fits when people build cases on him while still pretending he's the one on the moral high ground. He's obviously going to get lynched eventually regardless of his alignment, and since I'm pretty sure that alignment isn't a town one anyways,
Vote: mozsuggs
Prepost edit @zeddicus: yes, L-1 claim is standard."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Right, because experienced players are... worse... players...?n fairness, i am in anoob game, and have just realised this isnt a noob game!so i understand the intolerant, short sighted, bullying, illogical, arrogant twaddle now
Not justifying this BS with a response. Assuming it's directed at me, anyway.Christ! Guys after i get lynched, read Cyphillis post again-a tad scummy?!"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Ninja'd by an idiot. How embarrassing.
1) I've been on 2. And neither was a bandwagon when I originally voted on it, I started the wk thing and was the first on you.Hmm unpleasant and dumb, eh? An attractive combination. i have no more senseless bandwagon votes than you my dear syphillis, (are we both 3 bandwagons each-i'm tired and its late, but its roughly the same for each of us).
2) Mine are not senseless, they were based on logic. You admitted at the time that you had no reason. Don't even try to make it sound like the same thing.
One of the most hilarious things I've ever read in a mafia game. No, seriously.i dont know what cases you are refering to -i have rebutted your hopeless arguments one by one in fairly short order."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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The darkdude thing is Wifom. So is the fact that he brought it up. I propose that we ignore it for the time being.
Well yeah, of course. I mean, it's like everyone in the game. There almost couldn't not be.Talitha wrote:But I would imagine there's some scum on the wagon somewhere.
At the moment, I'm not going to hold the mozsuggs wagon against anyone. Maybe I'm biased, being the most vocal about the wagon, though not its greatest supporter. But we all know mozsuggs was asking for it, and I don't think anyone who wasn't on mozsuggs when he was lynched gladly would have been on him had they had the oppurtunity, except maybe for Yvonne (oh, and apparently Akonas, even though he was) as she pursued darkdude exclusively and pretty much ignored the wagon.
So I'm going to ignore whether or not people were on mozsuggs when analyzing, and instead look at how they did so, maybe voting in the mid-wagon area with little explanation. Although, not much explanation is needed seeing as reading mozsuggs' posts was enough to draw votes.
I dunno.... I'll have to look back at it later.
@Akonas... he said it was a mistake. If you don't believe him, pursue that, I suppose. And besides, it was obviously going to happen at some point. I would have done it in that situation (well, I might have waited, but still). Not caring is just a noob tell. And do you really think he didn't deserve it? He was erratic and couldn't be trusted in endgame anyways (see: voting for me because he doesn't like me), and we almost certainly would have lynched him at some point, especially given the townie claim. Pretending otherwise is really just silly."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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YES.windkirby wrote:but was he really acting all that scummy?
That's true, I didn't notice that stuff. I suppose you do have a point, it's just that VoD seems like a good player to me, and I can't see him hammering so suddenly as scum. Even most noobs know that hammering a townie makes you look bad. I also can't see him missing those warnings, either, though. I'm still inclined to believe him for now based on his not being a terrible player, but if a case builds on him later based on scummy behavior, that might be something I'd reconsider.windkirby wrote:The "accident" excuse quell me: especially after QF's warning, it takes a hammerer's substantial lack of care about the town to instigate an accidental lynch. Yikes, zed even posted that it was L-2! The sudden hammer without a lot of posting beforehand just seems like eager mafiaman who can't say no to finally being able to get out his gun.
I really don't think he deserves a lynch for just that though, and I won't be putting my vote on him without more evidence, as he's been doing a reasonable amount of contribution, especially since I think there are some better targets just waiting for me to have time to seek them out. At the moment, I'm thinking maybe Akonas, as he did put his vote on mozsuggs quietly iirc, and he's now done a 180. That said, I'm less suspicious of those voting for VoD than I was."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Pink Puppy, you're pursuing this very hard and not really giving VoD the benefit of the doubt at all. I do see what you mean with some of your points, but I can't tell exactly how serious you are about this from your posts. So here's a question: Based on the evidence we have and that you are talking about, do you want us run VoD up to a claim right now? Or do you simply think he's the most suspicious and want to have your vote somewhere, like wk does?"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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It's because he would know better than to quicklynch someone. Besides, look at that post. Is that the post of someone who knows they're hammering? Not really. The only possibility, if he's scum, is that he was already planning to make this argument. I find that difficult to believe because he could just as easily have not voted and not been put in the spotlight like he has been today, as mozsuggs was obviously going to be lynched eventually.Akonas wrote:I'm seeing a turnaround here... mostly the point I'd like to ask you about is why you think that the fact that you consider VoD to be a good player gives him extra leeway; if anything, I would think it would get him less. Yes, I can see the "it would be bad for him as scum" argument, but he could easily say it was an accident or that mozsuggs deserved it as well."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Ding ding ding, winner!QuantumFruit wrote:@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?
And fine, they don't always do something habitual. What I'm saying is, if he did this multiple times, it'd be scummy and I'd vote for him. Doing it once is a reasonable mistake - plus, you know my timing with witticisms. Very inopportune. So, I understand VoD and that's that."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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I'm not "praising". I am expressing my agreement in a slightly humorous way.
Y'know, wk, it's not like scum always agree. If VoD were hypothetically scum and we found this out later, I'd look back at this and be just as suspicious of PP and other people gunning after VoD hard (potentially bussing him) as I would be of those defending him. And it's just as suspicious to not take a stance at all in a way... it's hard to tell tbh. But anyway, a lot of the time, scum don't neccessarily defend their partners adamantly, because they know it'll look bad later. Granted, it's Wifom, but you get the point. Also, sometimes townies agree with each other."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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How are the mafia "turning down one lynch proposal after another" if VoD is the only wagon we've had today? There are only 2-3 of them, y'know (probably).darkdude wrote:I think VoD should claim to at least give us something to work on. Right now I feel as if we've been going over the same thing again for weeks. VoD seems most suspicious right now, so I think it's a good idea for me to ask for a claim. The resulting reactions could be what we need.
Perhaps for some reason I am not reading well enough, but all I see is defense after defense.Everything in mafia is defendable, and WIFOM is so common that it makes little sense not to act on something just because it could go on both ways.In this situation I believe we have to think simple and avoid over analyzing things. Because the way I see it is that the mafia is currently confusing the town by turning down one lynch proposal after another. I guess that's what happens when you lose 3 town in a row. Possibly one third of the players here could be scum. This would explain the lack of decisions.
And what, are we supposed to ignore what people say in their own defense? Lesse here, you were under suspicion at one point, right? Maybe we should bring it back up and disregard completely anything you or anyone else said defending you. And why the push for a claim? It seems to me that the three people voting VoD are the only ones that actually want him lynched, and as such I don't see him as in danger of a lynch, so why risk outing a power role?
Seriously, the guy has done only one thing even a little wrong, and other than that has been relatively protown IMO (though those long posts can be a lot to wade through). You really are far too guided by what seems to you to be "the general consensus". I think you're just trying to go with the flow and not be noticed.
Vote: darkdude
As for PP. I dunno, she seems townish to me. She may be pursuing one thing a bit overzealously, and it's something that's not much of a tell, but scum and town alike would be equally likely to not notice that the case on VoD is... lacking. But she definitely hasn't changed her opinion much if at all and hasn't backed off in the face of decent defense, and to a point I think it's a town tell. Maybe. Her backing off a bit in her most recent post is good. I think. For some reason she just doesn't feel like scum to me... I guess I can't really explain it. But I tried."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Your vote is helping pressure VoD to a claim right now, and if you don't really want him lynched you might want to move it.windkirby wrote:Ceph - I don't feel comfortable lynching VoD. As I've said before, I just feel that seeing as how my vote is my only weapon, I'd like to have it in use at all times.
That's not what you said. You said, "anything in mafia is defendable", etc. To me, that means the same as "defenses should be ignored", and that's ridiculous.darkdude wrote:I don't think VoD has a good defense. He's basically saying that he made a mistake by accident and we should ignore it. To me the best way to deal with this is to push for more information."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Fair enough, I guess.wk wrote:Ceph - I don't feel comfortable lynching VoD. As I've said before, I just feel that seeing as how my vote is my only weapon, I'd like to have it in use at all times.
VoD and I think someone else- People potentially to be lyncheddohave to claim eventually, dd was just being extremely premature. 'Cause lynching cops is bad.
dd's "explanation", if it could even be called that, was decidedly lacking. Vote stays."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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= "I have no defense and refuse to do anything about it"But from my perspective, since I know that I am pro town, I can 100% eliminate this possibility. Of course there is no conclusive proof which I can present to you, especially since you have made a case on me already which I cannot defend whether I am actually pro town or not; if I stay my opinion I'll get suspicion, if I change my opinion I'll get suspected for conforming in order to seem less suspicious.
"I'm the most suspicious player, but you can't use that as a case against me because I'm town"Yes I concur that from an objective point of view I do seem the most suspicious out of all players right now. But you cannot use that as a case against me; for as mentioned before I alone know that I am protown, therefore ignoring my own suspicious actions is fully justified.
Now that you're under pressure, you're starting to sound like mozsuggs."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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I think you missed QF's point. Pressuring VoD more because of the supposedly accidental hammer is useless and retarded.Akonas wrote:It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.
You're sort of right, in a way. Now that we realize this, we can choose not pursue that particular argument and focus on his having done it at all. But it was a scummy action that got you in the situation, dd.dd wrote:Originally I was pushing VoD because of my suspicions of his actions. Then I was told to "put my vote where my mouth was", so I did that, but then got criticized for conceding so easily. Then multiple people put up good reasons as to why I shouldn't have asked VoD to claim, and that doing so makes me scummy. If I stand my point I will appear scummy, and if I change my mind I'll still be scummy."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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I did? (I assume that's supposed to be my name, since nobody else's starts with a C )VoD wrote:ciepher mentioning cop.
It's pretty simple, really. Rolefishing is trying to find out someone's role or get hints as to it in a way that attempts to be subtle. Also, and this is one of my things that really annoy me, don't point out power role tells. Or vanilla tells. It only helps the scum, generally. Although I suppose it could, maybe, help the doctor, which is irrelevant seeing as we don't have one anymore.VoD wrote:No as I have said earlier I am still new and only know certain aspects of the game so far, I have heard of role fishing but have not been able to find a good definition of it or how it is done/how it works so If someone could eplain this to me more fully that would be great.
I take the role related words from dd and wk to mean respectively I'm trying to say I'm cop and I'm trying to say I'm town, now I can understand wks rather blatant attempt to say I'm town (but it means mostly nothing but seems odd to use role related ideas in a post), I'm really not sure about what darkdude ment by this but I find it very odd."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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It's often unintentional. Certain power roles have a tendency towards certain behavior, which I'm not going to talk about farther so as not to help scum choose an NK. Suffice it to say that I can remember at least one incidence where my (true) claim was believed based on stuff like that.VoD wrote:I find it strange a power role holder would put a tell in their posts or game style, obviously you would not want to give scum a chance to detect this.
What I meant is that we have already gained as much information as possible from that line of questioning and pursuing it farther isn't going to do any good.Talitha wrote:Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded. When people make comments like this it gives me the impression that they already know that person is town."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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If it's true, it's generally unintentional.VoD wrote:Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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The idea is that if a townie is doing what they should be doing (hunting scum), they don't look bad. Worrying about seeming like scum shouldn't be a townie's priority. Not getting lynched is important, but what some townie's don't factor into their thoughts is that they still win with the town if they die. Therefore, finding scum is more important than not getting lynched. That's not to say that getting yourself lynched to prove your suspiciouns were genuine is a good idea; it's not.VoD wrote:Well I can see this as ok in theory in practical usage it doesn't exactly help town win, if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.
It happens. If it seems like one's accusors have built really bad arguments, it can be difficult not to call them scum. If other players don't agree that the arguments are bad, there's a good chance that itVoD wrote:The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.isOMGUS and you don't realize it
Exactly. Case in point: mozsuggs. He calls me scum in, like, every one of his last five posts. Granted, he's an idiot, and I wasn't even as convinced as he seemed to think I was, but you get the idea. Some people just go TUNNELVISION BLAAAAGH on someone voting them and don't let up.dd wrote:Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way...."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Yeah, she wasn't acting very doccish. Please stop talking about it. If you want to talk about power role tells, do it after the game. Your post there could definitely give a noob scum a hint as to how cops act. I suppose talking about doc tells is okay at this point: they try not to draw attention to themselves."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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Yeah, it's annoying when a scum gets lynched and everyone looks for who who bussing rather than who was avoiding the lynch. Neither is infallible.PP wrote:(I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).
He is doing it excessively, but sometimes you really do agree with someone, like, completely. If everyone strictly thought for themselves, we'd end up with everyone having one vote.QF wrote:@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.
Bah, everyone seems town. I might look at some lurkers later."I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener-
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