Mini 1800 - Game Over
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I feel like this, and especially the bolded part, is a townpost. I had Karnos as a scumread all the way until the page this post showed up and I just want to say that if we're all going to be reaction testing and put out fake reads it's going to be hard to distinguish the townreads from the scumreads so please stop it. Karnos doesn't strike me as the kind of person to fake this as scum so while I still dislike the reaction test thingy, his explanation makes sense to me and he can be town. So can Wingback, but I already had good feels of sickofit at some point. Kind of popular reads I guess, I also like Persivul for town, but carefully.In post 510, karnos wrote:Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?
I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective.If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.
Now that Karnos is a townread I need to reread some iso's, don't have strong scumreads. I'm not impressed with Dierfire at all so far, Shady doesn't impress me either but I did like Johnny's catch-up. Would like to see more from him. Species has next to no content at all but it's a small iso and not enough to actually call him scum for it but I'm very much looking forward to his replacement. Snork has even less posts but I get more townvibes from his posts compared to Species.
I don't like Mecha for focussing on Wingback while pushing Karnos. For one, if Karnos was scum I would expect him to either just fake changing his read from scum to town or not have such a detailed explanation for his reaction test at least. Also, Karnos has adressed Mecha and Mecha ignored that to keep pushing that Karnos faked a read. Why would any scum admit to faking a read? Even if it might be fitting to how you've been playing, you still do not want to put that seed into other people's brains.
I feel that Karnos saying he faked his read is a bit awkward, but I think what he means (and what showed from what he was doing) is he was actually townreading Pers but afraid/paranoid about being wrong. This happens, people get alts because of it. Anyway, he 'faked' scumreading Pers to get a more definitive reaction out of him hoping to ensure his read.
Mecha, what's your read on Wingback again?
Johnny, have any of your reads changed since your catch-up post?-
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I agree with you. BUT if I were scum and Karnos was town I would push the exact same thing you are pushing now. Sometimes townies, and especially newer ones, do silly things. They saw something work in another game and want to try it but they have not enough experience to know what they should be looking for.In post 556, MechaGoomba wrote:
EXACTLY MY POINT!In post 549, karnos wrote: I voted a player who I was currently reading as town
I think we can reasonably assume that voting someone means that you think they're scum!
What's next, "I only said they were acting scummy, not that I thought they were scum; I actually believed they were town acting scummy the whole time"?
"I said I wanted them to be lynched, but I never said that I actually scumread them; I just didn't want them in the game"?
This is blatant semantics and I will have no part of it. TOWN DO NOT VOTE THEIR TOWNREADS. End of discussion.
Now I am starting to change my mind on Karnos because he parroted my post where I defended him without giving me credit and for me that looks like scum saw a good excuse for his thing and uses it for himself, after saying he actually had nothing to add.
Now maybe I would have listened to you earlier if you actually replied to MY post and explained to me how I was seeing things wrong (in your opinion then) but you seem to be stuck in a tunnel rn that is just saying: 'town does not vote other town'
Karnos explained he was townreading Pers in another game, but he flipped scum there. About an hour later he posted his vote for Pers in this game. He got paranoid of his townread because he saw him flip scum while townreading him in another game. The only reason that it sounds bad is because Karnos himself said his vote was fake. Now I don't know why Karnos called his vote fake, because if his story is true, it really wasn't a fake vote.
I will reread Karnos because I'm suddenly starting to doubt things.
@Dierfire: What exactly in my post are you not agreeing with?
@Mathblade: I've seen scum hard-defend their buddies 3 times since I started playing here. I was scum all those 3 times hard-defending my buddies (1 recent, 2 on my main) What I'm saying is: scum generally do not hard-defend. And you have Wingback as Karnos' buddy and me as a potential buddy. No.
Ye sure but scum can also use that for wifom. So no. Also, I'm a messyhead regardless of my alignmentIn post 573, qubixes wrote:
Btw, I think scum are less likely to get confused about who is who, and who is scum/town. Just some food for thought.In post 567, Wingback wrote:(the bit about calling Persivul vs Sickofit TvT doesn't make sense either since Sickofit is my slot).
And I'm with Wingback on this one, it's really weird Mathblade calls Sickofit town and then Wingback scum in the very same post with actually
I need to quote it
That's not confusement, that's not paying attention to your reads because you're faking them.In post 561, MathBlade wrote:qubixes -- Strong Town lean -- Post 175 -- I think qubixes is spot on with the Persuval v Sick discussion. That feels like TvT ripping each other apart. I don't really understand how that got started anyway. I plan on rereading this tonight and seeing how that got started. The first person on the Karnos list according to VC.
*****
Wingback (replaces Sickofit1138) -- I think they are probably scum with Karnos for the reasons above.
Ok, fully caught up now and I see I made kind of a huge post.. After I take a break I'll reread Karnos, I'm not ready to have him lynched, give me a few hours to look into this really carefully. I'm also going to read Qubixes, I think I saw something but I need to make sure if it fits. I'll let you know either way.
Btw, Karnos, you don't have me in your readslist.-
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Too tired for this rn.
Just one question: Karnos, you basically confirmed that my thoughts about the way you voted Pers was accurate. Now here's my question: Why did you call it a fake vote? Because I can completely understand you getting paranoid of a townread that you were townreading in another game and in that other game said person flips scum. It happens. However, paranoia is not fake.
This has been bugging me since yesterday and I'm to tired to think rn.-
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I'm inclined to believe Karnos' claim. He's hinted at being PR during his pressure and I think scum would love to claim if they can come up with a good one and since scum have daytalk, if Karnos is scum his buddies could have helped him. I would have expected a claim to happen sooner if he was scum, so to say.
Also, the lack of a counterwagon being pushed tells me scum aren't interested in moving the attention away from Karnos.
I'm not sure about mathblade yet, he should be experienced enough to not assume scum hard-defend each other? If Wingback and I are Karnos' buddies, why would we want to endanger ourselves? For a long time it looked like Karnos was getting lynched no matter what. I'd rather lynch someone who hasn't given an opinion yet. I'll start with Johnny because he suggested it.
VOTE: Johnny
What are your reads on Wingback, Mecha and mathblade atm? Do you believe Karnos' claim?
@Qubixes: My first instinct was 'well that kinda cop is more useful to scum than to town' but that was before I checked the wiki and still thought it was just a fancy name for a vanilla cop. Best case scenario Karnos (if his claim is true and town-aligned) lives until lylo and cleared enough players, or identified scum, to get us a win. But that depends on other factors. I think 2 town cops will make town very strong and I have never seen it happen (tracker/watcher with cop sometimes ye, but not 2 kinds of cops) If there is another cop, I think they should decide for themselves whether to cc or not. I'm not cc'ing Karnos' claim, but if I had a cop-role I wouldn't cc for reasons I don't want to explain rn.-
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This is a self-preservation claim (NAI) If Karnos is scum that wants to lure out a town-pr he could have claimed cop, or (and imo more likely) try and lure out the doc.
If I didn't just finish that game with Karnos (where he was scum and there were masons) I would think he was scum trying to get out pr's.
So I for now believe Karnos is town unless modconfirmed evidence or a believable cc counters that.
And I think that's the best way to handle a claim from someone at L-1, unless it's lylo/mylo.
Also, in another game of mine not too long ago I was wagoned and I was a JK, which I obv claimed, and there was 1 guy that did not unvote, he would not believe I was JK. Mind you, this was an open setup (Sharing is Caring). He flipped scum.
We're not lynching Karnos today without a cc, I'd rather not see anyone cc Karnos Day 1 but on the other hand, I don't want to bet this game on pr's. Only 3 days left in the phase if I read that correctly.
I'm not sure how I feel about Johnny's wagon, votes piled on quickly after mine. Starting to worry I just started a cc for scum :/ so ye, re-evaluate it is.-
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I'm not trying to dismantle the wagon on Johnny. Though I started it because he had disappeared which made it look to me like he had hoped Karnos would get lynched.In post 685, Wingback wrote:What's the problem with the votes on the Johnny wagon? Persivul's analysis on Johnny is accurate as is Mechagoomba's elaboration of it. I gave my reasons why I'm scumreading Johnny at least twice now and said I'd vote for him so that shouldn't have been a surprise.
If we're going to dismantle a wagon purely because it formed quickly, how are we ever going to lynch anyone?
I think it's ironic he started to respond more since he got wagoned. Then I got good reason to scumread Qubixes and changed my vote because I also wanted to see what Johnny would do. He completely ignored it.. I don't know, I just get this strong feeling with him that he doesn't really care that much. So time to get to know Johnny a little better (look at his more recent games) He's more involved as town. I found 2 scumgames (I didn't go back too far, people change) and in one he died too soon but the other one is the game his playstyle rn resembles most for me.
@Johnny: You didn't seem too interested in the gamestate when Karnos was still being wagoned. You also haven't said anything about Karnos' claim. You got interested when you started getting votes. Or am I wrong?
VOTE: Johnny-
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@Johnny: In 1 of the games I saw a post of yours that said something about being gone for a year and then dying so fast, so I only went up from there, here's link http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=59284 The second scumgame I saw was the third forthnight http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66246
The towngames were Nightless vengeful mayhem 613 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=63741 Mini 1782 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65928 Mafia cafe mini 1709 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=63042 and Newbie 1537 of which I saw later it's over a year ago, but still fits with the other towngames.-
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No. I did what I did with them and am done with that now. I was curious about Johnny's playstyle in general, that's about all I can get from past games sadly. That's also why I didn't post the links initially, but Johnny asked.In post 716, MechaGoomba wrote:@Masquerade: Okay, so you have a bunch of links to games. Are you planning to analyze them at some point?
From my limited look at his games, I'm willing to write Johnny's behavior off as being playstyle for now. Might come back later.
I thought I saw similarities between that forthnight-scumgame and this game. In the towngames I saw I felt Johnny was more engaged and pro-active, while in that scumgame and here he was less engaged, and reactive. But then last page makes me think I saw wrong.
I want to do this rn.
VOTE: Math-
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I should probably reread on some stuff because rn I have a few issues with magna..
@Johnny, in a rolemadness I was a scum tracker, claimed tracker, shared results/confirmed townies and killed them later, and won (on my main) So yeah, we should definitely be critical of Karnos, but I think if we give him a night or 2 for results we can use that to figure out his alignment. That also gives him a day or 2 to show us he is town. Meanwhile we keep on scumhunting because p sure we're playing against more than 1 scum so even if Karnos is scum we'd still have to find more (his buddy/ies, opposing faction, 3rd party?)
I know flips will be able to help me strengthen some reads.-
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I was indeed first to vote Johnny. Then I voted Qubixes when Johnny's wagon built up, then I revoted Johnny, then I voted you. If you had issues with my votes, why didn't you address it when I made them?In post 776, MathBlade wrote:Low and behold what do we have here. Masquerade was actually the first person to drop a vote on Johnny but because of when GreyICE did vote counts it looks like Persival. Then when the wagon starts to pick up steam Masquerade votes me. They also do not explain why they are voting me either or try to explain why they are voting me. Instead it is what they "want". This looks like trying to split the bridges more so than any case they can provide. If they thought Johnny was scum but I was scummiest I would have expected them to at least explain a reason of some kind as to why me over Johnny. This would get people to look more closely at me and try to analyze me, which is what you want people to do to your top scum read. To help gain understanding of if you are right or wrong and why.
And since you seem to really want to know why I'm voting you: Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.-
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This.In post 809, karnos wrote:You can see how hastily the post was crafted because he calls Persivul vs Sickofit "TvT" while at the same time calling Wingback "probably scum" - this sloppy mistake shows he didn't really do the work, but rather was just desperate to get out a hit piece on me ASAP before the wagon lost momentum.
@Qubixes: Here it is very, very concise:
And math keeps on ignoring or miss-reading everything I say. Do you agree with his observations of me in his 803? To me it feels like he went through my iso and looked for keywords he could use against me, but he got a lot of stuff so wrong I'm not even going to dignify it with a response.In post 781, Masquerade wrote:Snork wasn't impressive at all. You so far have focussed most on Karnos, you also kept your vote there very long and in one of my previous posts I explained why I think that's scummy (683). You keep throwing shade my way but you don't engage with me and you ignored what I said about you in 593 and 669.
And why is he starting a new wagon on Dierfire, which picks up a little bit of steam, then switches to another new wagon with now even less time left?
My flip won't prove mathblade's alignment in any way or form, I mostly hope that everyone sees math's case on me blows. I offer myself into a 1v1 because of how certain I am that he's scum.-
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Oh wow this must be really important to you. I'm not elaborating because the condition you gave is false. Iow, it has nothing to do with you or your slot specifically.In post 814, MagnaofIllusion wrote:@Masq– You didn’t answer this the first time. Please do so in your next post.
In post 794, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Please elaborate if this has to do with my slot predecessor or other games.In post 791, Masquerade wrote:I'm afraid I'm starting to get biased from pre-associations.-
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I just really feel like Mathblade is looking for a viable wagon that isn't Johnny. I think Mathblade hoped Johnny would get lynched sooner and then that didn't happen and now he has to maintain his stance on Johnny as a townlean so try to start another wagon, but someone not too viable so finally we'll end up with either a Johnny-lynch anyway, or a no-lynch. Johnny is more likely town than scum in this scenario. I don't have a strong read on Johnny currently, I wish I had. I'm not opposed to lynching him but I'd rather keep fighting for a stronger scumread a little while longer.
@Mathblade: Why is Johnny a townlean again?-
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First of all, I had no time to check at the time but I distinctly remember someone saying something about Johnny's meta. I thought it was magna (I still do actually..) but he says it's not so it might take me a bit to find.
I skimmed over your wall and saw some misreps. You can try to read my iso again properly and then try again.In post 838, MathBlade wrote:Please do. I looked in a hurry as I am getting ready for work at Magna's ISO by searching for the word "meta" in their ISO and none of those posts came up with a post about Johnny's meta.
Also are you going to answer 826? I find it completely hypocritical that you scum read me for "ignoring" posts I addressed and then ignore my numerous requests for your reads and now direct questions to you.
For one, I did not say I would have claimed sooner if I was scum, I said I expected scum to claim sooner than Karnos did. This is just one example of stuff you have misinterpreted, and I'm stuck on a scumread on you and there is nothing anyone can do this dayphase to change that. I will reevaluate after we've had flips.
Please go and worry about getting a lynch at all today, it's obvious that I'm not able to get a wagon going on you.
Now off to find that thing..
Oh, one more thing, I never took 510 as a crumb, but I suck at those. Why did you wait so long to bring it up?-
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Eh how is that out of your control exactly?In post 850, karnos wrote:As far as my willingness to switch my vote, that isn't something that could be manipulated by some power-role or nightkill. If the mathblade lynch doesn't happen, my vote isn't going to help anything by sitting on him. I can either move it to a viable lynch, or I can be part of the problem and potentially leave us with a no-lynch. It's essentially out of my control.-
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@Mathblade (and Magna):
Sorry guysm I confused your names!In post 769, MechaGoomba wrote:You've made more posts than any other player that replaced in near the same time as you, and yet you have far less actual content than anyone else.
I could write it off as playstyle, but my meta analysis makes it look pretty clear: you do usually have this style of many short posts, but usually you're moving towards something constructive with them. I can't see that here.-
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Why do you want Fire to read you? If you're town, why do you want him to waste his time getting a townread on you when he should be figuring out whether to hammer Johnny or fire up a new wagon?
I'm not putting my reads into one post. Why did you stop voting me btw? Why is Magna a better wagon for you?-
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I'm reading them for the most part. I have issues concentrating so very long posts I just zone out no matter how much I want to read them. I didn't ask you why you voted Magna, I want to know why Magna is a better vote than me. The thing is, we're nearing deadline and you seem to be looking for a viable wagon. To me it seems useless to keep votehopping at this stage because it makes you look not certain of your read and that's how people don't join your preferred wagon.In post 889, MathBlade wrote:Are you reading my posts? Magna wasn't reading mine and just grasping at straws to try to say things were scummy. That is why they got the vote. So much lack of reading....
@Mecha: A lot of people commented on Karnos so even though we're not lynching Karnos, reading him would be a help in determining other players' alignments, I agree it doesn't have to necessarily be before the lynch but if Fire wants to understand why people take certain stances it would definitely help.
Because I was sure that I wouldn't get lynched before mathblade. I wanted to show how sure I was of my read on him. + another reason I won't get into now.In post 894, Wingback wrote:This came completely out of the blue. Barely anyone has expressed any interest in lynching you and you are in no danger. On the other hand, Mathblade has attracted considerable suspicion as well as a wagon. Why would you want to flip rather than just lynch Mathblade? Why do you think seeing you flip town will suddenly cause everyone to lynch Mathblade when you could just as well be wrong? This looks like something that seems townie on the surface but doesn't really make sense in the context of this game so I want to know exactly what you were thinking here. I see you answered in Post 812 but I still don't get why you want to allow yourself to be lynched just to show that Math's case "blows."-
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I don't remember, can you link the post where I said that?In post 899, qubixes wrote:@masquerade: At some point you said that there might be something suspicious in my ISO, but you would check to make sure. What were you looking for?
I do NOT want to figure out who to lynch in the last hour. If Johny was a PR he should have claimed already so either he is scum or a vt, so lets lynch.
Here is my intent to hammer.
Does anyone have anything they *need* to say before nightfall?
I'm done and I'm getting bored with this. Either pick a goddamn wagon that has votes or stay on Johnny. THIS IS NOT HELPING US LNCH SCUM>-
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Found it myself btw. Will get back to you on that tomorrow, am going to reread most players after we see Johnny flip.
Thing is, I never got to rereading Qubixes because my attention was caught elsewhere (Karnos' claim, Johnny, Mathblade..)In post 593, Masquerade wrote:I'm also going to read Qubixes, I think I saw something but I need to make sure if it fits. I'll let you know either way.-
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Ok I read some posts after my hammer before I realized how many and big they became. I have never seen such activity after a hammer.
We had several extensions, this dayphase has gone on longer than usually is and should be the case. We do not need to use all the time provided but the way things were going I saw the following scenario happen: Last hour of the phase. Johnny still at L-1 (or maybe L-2) Suddenly everybody stops wanting to lynch Johnny and we have to rush another wagon and hope it will be hammered.
I wasn't going to wait for that to happen.
There was no progress being made as far as I could tell. Lynchtargets are being suggested but no new wagon was building up AT ALL. I admit, I panicked. But not because I was afraid because a hypothetical buddy is in the line of fire. If I wanted a misslynch I would have hammered Johnny when I had the first chance (assuming me scum and him town, that is)
I'm vt. I was 100% sure Mathblade is scum and I figured that if people ended up lynching me over Math it wouldn't be a horrible loss. That's the thing I didn't want to say earlier. Karnos can decide for himself who he wants to investigate. I don't object to it being me but he shouldn't announce it. If I really am town I will be able to show you that tomorrow through talking, if you then still want to lynch me, so be it. I'll be there to defend myself and scumhunt.-
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I think Qubixes is scum with Kappy. I'm having huge issues concentrating and having a really hard time explaining but just look at his iso in his first 400 posts. I can't remember what pinged me when I first read Qubixes' iso maybe it will come to me later, maybe not.
VOTE: Qubixes
Math: What do you want me to say about the flips? I didn't believe Johnny was scum when I hammered him and I had Wingback as a strong townread. They both flipped town which means my reads there were accurate. I agree with Fire that scum will likely kill pr-suspects or threats, not for framing. Why would scum kill Karnos' biggest defender? Because they really want Karnos mislynched. At least, that's my humble opinion.-
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Mathblade, if Karnos was scum he would have talked about his result with his buddies. There are more reasons for Karnos' action to fail, yet he can only come up with 2 of the most common roles that mess with investigation. If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that. But he didn't mention them. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Karnos picked Persivul to investigate.In post 953, karnos wrote:I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.
And that's why I still think Karnos is town.
Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. If Johnny was an actual townread, I would have tried harder to stop the lynch. Ffs just read my goddamn posts from when I first voted him to where I finally hammered him.
I wanted a flip. I was selfish. I assumed we would have a frantic last hour where we had to hastily put a wagon together. I have meta but sadly it's an ongoing game so I can't explain rn. Hopefully soon.
I already said I think Wingback was killed because scum want Karnos misslynched.-
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Yeah no I misinterpreted your post I think. I like you're being sort of critical and I think you're town rn.In post 978, Firebringer wrote:
This account isn't made to do work.In post 976, Masquerade wrote:How about you make your own reads instead of depending on others?
I have karnos at null because all thats literally happened with him so far is talk about actions (at least today i think).
The reason I'm townreading Karnos, and defended him yesterday, is because everything he explained checked out.
Karnos was townreading Persivul, then Pers flipped scum in another game, at which point Karnos got paranoid and voted Pers (and was awkward with explaining that calling it a fake vote) and I checked that other game and the timing checks out. And you of all people should understand, because you have been paranoid about me in the past after you townread me when I was scum.
What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)-
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If Karnos is scum, he knows whether Pers is town or scum, no? Unless this is multiball or if there is a SK. So there was no reason for Karnos as scum to be paranoid of Persivul. You answered the question anyway:In post 982, Firebringer wrote:
What does this have to do with Persivul alignment? You suggesting multiball of Pers flipping different team? Huh?In post 981, Masquerade wrote:What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)
I don't take Karnos as a master planner either, I don't think Karnos would have come up with using his other game that just ended like that if he didn't feel real paranoia. But I also don't see him as a bad player. Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.I don't know if he would or wouldn't, all I could do is put myself in his shoes and say what I would do, and its likely not claim a PR unless my ass was really on the line. My first thoughts wouldn't be Neopolitian cause I have seen town get lynched with that claim and I don't think its even a good role. I can't say what Kranos would do though cause I don't know how he operates as far as play style. His posts seem simplistic in style and in tone. Maybe its a facade but he doesn't seem like some master planner, unless his hypothetical teammates are, even so its some weird lies.
Meh, I don't think mathblade is on the target with it. I can tell by logic used by math its forced and its just self serving the bias had before with a previous read.
I would like to hear more about it, but that's my thoughts so far without doing ISO of Kranos.-
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Whelmed. So you're neutral then?In post 986, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I’m whelmed by karnos’s results.
I actually think Karnos' pick made sense..
What is your read on Qubixes?-
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@Pers. 1 Unless they are afraid a more common role is already in the game. They would be cc'ed. So in a closed setup a less common role is safer to claim.
2 Completely agree and that's exactly what I would do if I were scum as well (and have done)
3 Yes, but thanks for spoonfeeding that to Karnos. I mean, I'm pretty sure he's town but I'm also aware that I could be wrong. Besides that, other players are not convinced of Karnos being town so they kind of need a genuine answer from Karnos.-
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Qubixes, yes, my hammer was bad. It was selfish. I was afraid we were going to end up no-lynching and took matters into my own hands and hammered while I still had the chance. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sorry but it happened, we can't change it. So if you scumread me for it you go and push me and make a case on me. And if not then just stfu and accept that it happened.-
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@ModI need to go on V/LA for a week because I'm co-modding this game and coming week it's all me and it needs 2 extensive updates a day. If this is an issue, replace me.
@Mathblade: Read my posts again. We are disagreeing. I will not give you the satisfaction of changing my opinion because you give yourself brain damage from hitting your head into walls. All the points you keep bringing up about Karnos I have already refuted. Stop it. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING KARNOS.-
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