Mini 1755: Game Over

[AxleGreaser]

and that was

It's rly obvious so I shouldn't have to spell it out

[AxleGreaser]

If you
You wanna claim Ircher is scum.... go play in some other puddle, or I will be beedy eyeing you for role fishing. (perhaps that is clearer.)

and by that i mean look at evidence that in no sense is role fishing.

[AxleGreaser]

yeah but views vary and it is not up to me to try and weedle some way i can see your post as related to facts.
And yeah I did and not I dont see fear mongering that was alignment indicative.

yeah that has a typo...

yeah but views vary and it is not up to me to try and weedle some way i can see your post as related to facts.
And yeah I did and no I dont see fear mongering that was alignment indicative.

[AxleGreaser]

[AxleGreaser]

what reason do we have to believe that a vig exists though? :S

Read the fucking thread, if you want to know.

Troll.

[AxleGreaser]

like walk me through the purpose behind this discussion.

who proposed that a vig exists and why?

read the fucking thread.

[AxleGreaser]

Ircher, why do you think that Axle is a vig?

Read the fucking thread he said why.

I explained why he was totally wrong about the why.

---

Hi, please go see what i meant every other time i said Hi. This one is the same but perhaps utterly different in where it goes next.

If you wanna be an especially bad player and fake claim a role.... well I probably cant stop you, just lynch you for it.

If you wanna just out your own goddam role for no particular reason.... well I probably cant stop you
and when other people try to lynch you for it I can try (if i manage to remember my own win con...) try and stop them just lynching you for it.

but please for fucks sake stop trolling by blatantly role fishing with people that probably dont have the technical skill/practice to write post and not fuck up by saying something role indicative.

because that I will fucking lynch you for.

BTW I have recently had cause to reread the thread and some ISOs fairly hard: I town read

Droogs

play....
that may not be enough to stop me voting for you with the intent to lynch... and talking myself into believing it was in my town wincon to do so.

I think I was clear enough this time..... 1525

Stop role fishing... it is bad.
It is double bad to do it by asking questions already answered in the thread....

FFS

[AxleGreaser]

Axle, are you claiming vig?
Ircher, are you claiming role cop?

Fuck off.

[AxleGreaser]

RC, can you VCA the wagons for me?

Ok so if you are going to play, I will walk away from that.
[img]
https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-im ... /ears2.jpg[/img]

[AxleGreaser]

I don't get an answer

It was answered long before you asked. 1525 and again 1544

[AxleGreaser]

I find it very difficult to believe that town has an additional role cop and vigilante on top of what's already flipped.

Of cpourse they dont or very very likely dont....

and if anyone had actually claimed that at all or you could show where

you

believed they had...

you might or would have a point.

but you have not done that, no one claimed those things you simply made up.

If at some point there were too many claims then yes indeed, that would be highly suspicious.

[AxleGreaser]

I think it's not entirely an impossibility that Ircher is tracker and caught Axle performing a night kill.

I want a hardclaim from Ircher if he has anything to report.

Oh goody now if ONLY you had actually read the thread in detail including the bit in the spoiler where I defined what all town ought know.....

then you would see that on the offchance whoever happens to have power role fodoes not know how to play I indicated people with results of substance ought tell the thread.

So if he is both power role and has result of substance it is important for the thread to know that they wont work out if he flips.

The differnce is when i did it ....

I didnt go fishing for a freaking response.

please stop being awful at the game.

[AxleGreaser]

I didn't say anything about what you did or did not do.

I'm just asking for clarity.

If you are town, Axle, all that this means is that Ircher will report with "I don't have a role related reason, sorry!"

Now that you have specified and CLOSED, down what responses he can possibly make.
That not so bad.

You questions before were wayyyyyyy open ended and demanded role claims.. for no freaking reason.
and were based on you totally failing to read the goddam thread.

Spoiler: What you actually did a very short time ago

Axle, are you claiming vig?
Ircher, are you claiming role cop?

Fuck off.

all that this means is that Ircher will report with "I don't have a role related reason, sorry!"

No that was not all your question asking specifically for role claims was likely going to get.

[AxleGreaser]

If you are town, Axle, all that this means is that Ircher will report with "I don't have a role related reason, sorry!"

BTW If you dont have role related reason Ircher....

You can respond with just, "I don't have a role related reason,"
sorry is something cowbells ought be.

All you did was misunderstand a rather long wordy post that I made.
Cowbells failed to understand that post, your post, or read any of the explanations.

[AxleGreaser]

Well I wasn't sure what I was asking because I noticed weird shit going on and was trying to clarify.

I needed to consider what the possibilities really were before I could ask the 'right' question so to speak.

If you needed to consider the possibilities, you could read the bloody thread.

I hate hat youre doing this. I feel like youre doing it for meta reasons.

now there is a theory....

So just to help that along....

This is apparently how cow bells behaves but only in the situation where the game looks fairly solved (to some of the players) so it wont apply in other situations.

I wonder if that helped.

[AxleGreaser]

Even if you are a PR of some sort if you don't have a role related reason just say "I don't have a role related reason."

How about I read the thread for you...

I have a good feeling he is vig

as

he stated he strongly believed in multiple nks.

AS states that the reason is "he(Axle) stated he(Axle) strongly believed in multiple nks." (According to Irchers reading of my post)

He clarified where he thought I said words that meant that here

people some people think are scum, but stand no chance of swaying lynch on them soon, or even without nk's removing the opposition. And yeah I think its multiple nks.

@Axle

and yeah just that snippet looks like that....

but in the context of the whole post and what it was explaining there was no indication by me that i thought multiple nks would or could or could not happen in one night.
This is explained in detail in the other parts of the thread you are either ignoring or not reading.

I indicated that multiple nks were required to lynch in the outsiders pool. And indeed with the people who would have to be killed it would by my require multiple scum kills.

[AxleGreaser]

Heat and utl have caught shade all game.

and or distancing

[AxleGreaser]

GR got up to L-1, claimed vanilla, and then I skimmed five pages to see what he really was and ... now he's at L-2? Pisskop is GR your scumbuddy?

Near as i can tell we(the thread) have an obsession with using all of the day, so we are either playing shuffle board, or Pk is a buddy.
My current bet is both GR and heat will flip scum and make everything else moot.

This didnt happen

I think we should take time to look at the pushes on people, and who is making them, and how strong.

I think we should take time to look at the pushes on people, and who is making them, and how strong.

Ok its your plan so ...

That was the implication

but then other things did so Id be conflicted if i complained.

This might seem true

gdi this game needs a leader.

What the game doesnt need is anyone person with wrong idea making so much noise that scum if they are not in GR and heat can slide by.

What the game does need if either GR or Heat is as town as the say they are
and seeing as last I recall neither particularly suspected me as scum. then they could take this as a truthful hint on how to play

yeah you should...

and then if it is that freaking obvious you perhaps ought be quizzing me about why I dont...

and

you know

play the game

and shit like that.

and play

PS. pretty sure even if I roll scum next game and am in similar situation the "advice" would be compelled to be truthful
So yeah 1529 is me, if they are town, trying to let them show me...

So far, all I got was role fishing, and then RC decided what the role fishing needed was bigger frickin boat and dynamite.

[AxleGreaser]

?

[AxleGreaser]

I disagree.

But can you agree with me on UTL and we sort out Massive later?

So your asking someone to agree with this....

UTL asked Raskol questions as if she scumread him then didn't get or follow up on the answers and she reacted weirdly to him FoSing her in return.
I get awful gut pings from her.

UTL has been my priority lynch since I got caught up.

and that is what you got?

[AxleGreaser]

Can I just 'welp I'm rc' and have everyone vote this player?

I'm not good at this.

Apparently

[AxleGreaser]

What in blue blazes going on here?

Ok, I'm making a request and I'm making it to Axle, as he is my top townread right now: We need someone to review the interactions with AI; I've thought about it, and I think understanding his views and why he was nk'd will solve the puzzle.

People dont pay enough attention to dead peoples reads for it seem likely that AI was killed for any of his.

Spoiler: examples

I think I'm OK with a Performer lynch. I prefer an UpTooLate or Heat lynch, though.

Not going to be here for the next two days but I want a lynch on either

Heat, UTL

and Ras.

I see there is common ground here.

No. I think he is town.

and those posts are nice and all and hes dead and hes flipped towny, but i have town PM too.

So if I combine his reads, which lack much in the way of reasons, with my own which have substantive reasons usually even more than i have posted in the thread.
Then as his basically have no evidence at all, they get weighed down to nothing.
They also seemed to have significant amount to do with dick waving, as per 745.

I'd highly likely think they killed him thinking he was a blue role. he did spend most of D1 acting like he was "special" in some way.

Keyser was IMO probably killed for being Keyser, while Keyser may well have been on the right track, you could also kill him because you were not going to get to lynch him and becuase even if he was at the time (wrong or right) the dnage would be his positive influence on the thread the following days.

Spoiler: daybreak reactions

scum sometimes act funny at daybreak about the kill.

N1 has ended.

AlwaysInnocent (Town JOAT)

was found dead.

D2 begins now.

Is it just me, or does it seem odd for AI to have been NK'd?

I wasn't expecting AI to get nked tbh
I also wasn't expecting ras to flip scum but w/e. I love surprises!

Time to go look at who AI was scumreading

And if heat is scum as my read of their filter suggest to me. THEN on this occasion one reason to kill AI as opposed to anyone else would be because (on average) the AI filter implicated people other than scum.
but that would likely be a bonus as the shot was likely a blue snipe.

I dont in hindsight even have any reason to think Keyser looked like a blue role, so his could be entirely explained as a kill based on perceived skill, so again it would be dangerous to assume eh was killed for what he had said when it could just as as easily be for what he was going to say. (thread presence and stability)

[AxleGreaser]

What in blue blazes going on here?

if you are referring to this... (and the BS that preceded it)

Even if you are a PR of some sort if you don't have a role related reason just say "I don't have a role related reason."

You can respond with just, "I don't have a role related reason,"

Then I think you have few options.
treat it with #1 the ignore it deserves. (now and or before)

#2 Specifically tell someone to "fuck off" in response to a stupid already answered question

or if you choose and it is appropriate and true.

You could confirm what is obvious from actually reading the thread that the reason you thought I was a likely vig was based on the contents of my posts,
and specifically and explicitly not based on the contents of any PM you may or may not have received from the host.

I believe this follwing statement is information free, and only contains information already known in the thread, as such it in no way gives in to the earlier role fishing
but if RC is still insisting they cant read, they cant then have Any reason to be focused on that issue to the exclusion of playing the game.

---

#3 "I don't have a role related reason," (for having thought Axle might be a vig)

---

but thats only 3 options I am sure there are more.

[AxleGreaser]

Rob is full of contradictions and opportunism and I'll probably vote for them when they respond to my question.

I'm going to be flat out honest with you, I'm sheeping my townreads here because I don't trust myself this game, as my beginning reads were really not all that good. (ie. ras flipping scum, AI flipping town, perf flipping town. all of them were wrong) Me giving reasons for why I scumread GR are really just gonna be a reiteration of why theres a case on him, but I'll do it anyways

I'm ok w/that
VOTE: UTL

I sense a reluctance to vote GR... that is not just derived from sheeping.

[AxleGreaser]

@1620 I will have further look at your post and AI, but IRL has demands on me for a while, then i expect to be exhausted by what I am about to do...

I am pretty sure there is not all that much to be gained,

and the best place to look is in the scummy looking peoples filters for words from their own mouth. (or the lack of towny ones from their own mouth)

[AxleGreaser]

i'm pretty fucking reluctant to vote GR too, yeah.

what does it mean though?

Oh you want detailed explanation of meaning.... I can do that.

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons you have and have not said in the thread.
It means you have a reason you wont and have not said.
Given you also have said:

Spoiler: RC self meta

self meta

Would you believe I'm just feeling like being a lazy fuck right now?

Can I just 'welp I'm rc' and have everyone vote this player?

I'm not good at this.

and although that is self meta it agrees with my recollection of your play.
You are not good at this whole give reasons thing. When you do they frequently don't make sense to me nor do i find them persuasive. That means that as scum your get to just shit up the thread with various theories that dont make sense to people(me) and it looks pretty much just like town RC.

conclusion

So one conclusion is none hijacked your accoutn and you are posting pretty much like yourself, but an even more IDGAF version than usual.

In a more general sense

As you are not in fact putting that reason for not lynching GR forward, it also means you are not actually trying to make sure that GR doesn't get lynched, you just want for some reason to be seen saying you oppose it, without actually making a determined push. Id point out how scummy doing that kind of thing can be, but TBMrecollection that is pretty much how you play. There do also exist towny possible reasons to adopt stance like that, and at this time I have no expressed opinion about whether you are doing like that(for a towny reason) or not. (also I have not actually drawn that conclusion, youd need to have started actually playing the game, for me to make judgments like that.)

If i was just reading your play this game your slot would have significantly different read to what Droog made of it before he left.

So pulling things in isolation like, "RC is reluctant to vote GR, is not all that useful", analysing or requesting analysis of points in isolation like that is bad. So that is SNAFU too.

and then there is the rest of the post 1624 that you seem to have overlooked which is Heat also scum reading GR recently

You recently suggested massive might be scum. I have different view. One of the things he has been doing is generally known as "Working the game out", one of the ways i have observed him do that is he has no problem working out by reading the thread things such as:

Ircher at no point gave any indication he had a role related check. Indeed reading the thread and trying to work it out would have made it abundantly clear that was not what was going on.
You by way of contrast >claimed< not to understand that, you have effectively by your loose/bad PR related play, claimed vanilla town, go you, now your survival which apparently is way more important to you than your town wincon is greatly enhanced.

or

... that would also be >>consistent<< with a scum RC trying to establish in advance reason why they have not been night killed. That is becuase IMO RC, is so frequently sure they are so good and dangerous to scum that RC is bound to be the night kill. So as scum I expect you will frequently try and establish reasons your not dead. But as i said I have also got the read on your slot from Droogs townier play, so that is just dripping tap material so far.

I suppose,
I could spoon feed you what I observed like you're a rank noob if you like?

[AxleGreaser]

I wasn't expecting AI to get nked tbh
I also wasn't expecting ras to flip scum but w/e. I love surprises!

Time to go look at who AI was scumreading

And if heat is scum as my read of their filter suggest to me. THEN on this occasion one reason to kill AI as opposed to anyone else would be because (on average) the AI filter implicated people other than scum.
but that would likely be a bonus as the shot was likely a blue snipe.

Another thing of note is that while Heat says that he thought that was a useful thing to do, and obliquely egged on that someone would do it, and implicitly indicated he would, he didn't then do it.

Scum killing a towny who has wrong reads, can then behave like that, suggesting idly that someone ought do it. Maybe even saying they will but then dont. Why Don't they actuaally do it?. Because they don't want their own hands dirty they want someone else to follow the misdirect of following the dead townies reads.
In contrast towny who believes we ought examine, who AI was scum reading and then says they are going to do just that...
A towny then reasonably often does indeed do what they said they would.

This is yet another thing that leans scum for me.

[AxleGreaser]

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons you have and have not said in the thread.
It means you have a reason you wont and have not said.

yeah Ok so Houdini would be trouble working that sentence out.

That you are reluctant to vote GR and and have the reasons(unstated one)
and you have and have not said those (unstated reasons) in the thread.

It means you have a reason(the unstated ones) you wont and have not said. << yeah it was just a tautology.

[AxleGreaser]

Pisskop and GR aren't buddies. Go back and reread Deus' attack on pisskop from D1. There's no reason Deus tries to prolong the push on pisskop if they're buddies.

FYI: i was probably just wiggling my bum around in 1601 and the bit about most things being moot is where my head is at.
If someone else flips scum such as Deus/GR, then who they made pushes on that were not distancing pushes will be useful.

re your not Deus/PK statement. I have not looked at the context aka "prolong"
but just
217 feels wrong for distancing push. (it has the wrong kind of zing to it.)

I once, while spectating/stalking saw a very severe, distancing push and then pinged the whole scum team based on it. This feels like actual, throwing shade that might get the guy lynched.
(Hmm.... feelsz. perhaps i can explain the feelz with: I can use the words malice and forethought to describe 217)
What could amount to prolonging even for scum scum it is if PK arranged pregame for an extended PL like push(hence less likely to be fatal) to be made. As a way to look busy, and yet be out of the light, and eventually whoever doesn't flip rides it as town cred?
but while I do keep wondering about that as a theoretical possibility I don't see that happen in the scum PTs all that much.

but that aside 217 feels wrong, for scum vs scum.

Spoiler: addendum

Also now I am finally happy. quite some time ago i was rereading the thread and read

I dont care about your question. Post some content now you creepy ass avatar.

and i realised I was perhaps indeed mis(feel)reading the slot based on my feeling about a creepy ass avatar
I tried turning avatars off for bit and reading the thread but it didnt help.

Now that I have what I don't like about, 217 sorted in my head, the avatar don't look creepy assed. 217 Looks malice and forethought.
TLDR: Small potatoes for Deus alignment, but somewhat stronger for not buddies.

For me: To get alignment indicative for Deus: Deus would need to have not replaced out and then either been consistent with that stance or not.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP @1627...
As I recall it.
Massive hasnt stated he understood that particular thing yet, but it is, as I said, the kind of thing he routinely just works out because he is trying to work the game out.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: preamble

If as means of not being a dick, and breaking game rule zero, you start with true kind and necessary
it is often necessary in mafia to be fewer than all of those things, compromises are required. In this case somewhat unusually it is possible I will compromise true in a way I normally don't, despite LAL, but only in places that are not alignment indicative or exactly game relevant. Not sure yet and not sure i will remember to come back and remove/renuance this if I dont.

Oh you want detailed explanation of meaning.... I can do that.

in extensive detail even

continuing analysis of AI interactions.

There is problem best shown by example.

but first a word from piss and vinegar (The sponsor of todays post)

Spoiler: P&V

Describing the non material aspects of humans is hard and error prone.
These two/three posts

AI, youre full of piss and vinegar today?

Made it to the bottom of 25. My impression so far of those four pages:

Player: "Hey but what about this possible game-related idea or thought?"
pisskop / AI / droog: "Never mind that, have you seen the size of our dongs?"

Honestly guys, there is nothing alignment-indicative in your dongs, put them away please.

This is us fighting:

all talk about the same thing just with differing POVs,

it
the thing

is what I am talking about when i talk about piss and vinegar. (choose your own POV for what it looks like from where you stand)

Consider the problem I identified that AI had been

I'd highly likely think they killed him thinking he was a blue role. he did spend most of D1 acting like he was "special" in some way.

Why a problem? Well that is the example.

Lets be a little cheaty analyze Keyser, where we all happen to know the answer. (both were town)

Spoiler: Keyser For use as benchmark TvT interaction

Keyser I believe got the implied joke troll of post 7 See

DO NOT FAKE CLAIM

Massive 108 is more what I expected as a "general" reply but i forgot Keyser is keyser so I got 8.
So with that as basis for where Keyser's head is at...

26 28 33 Shows Keysers, reaction to people scum reading it....
Keyser is fairly clearly chasing alignment indicative information.
(his characterization of our relative number of games (on this forum) may be accurate, but is perhaps little misleading about what Id expect both to know... especially given as stated I had stalked Keyser a bit.)
meh he is chasing "is scum indicative." Now theoretically good scum can try to pressure noob into folding up in heap and getting lynched like that... (which is really quite towny,). but I dont see that very often, (and besdies this is NOT so much reading the interaction as just reading keyser as i did at the time.)

Keyser goes on trying to sort a bunch of people, now it was his interaction with me that I found most interesting, in that by doing what he did he was losing the chance to see me interact in the mess of my own making. (Seemed like bad idea to me at the time)
However we are doing AI's interactions
By 63 he is voting AI.

By 78 he appeared to be contemplating banging his privates on steel bar as opposed to some alternatives on offer.... (almost tilted?) (I was, so maybe I was just projecting)

and then on a dime he turned. (79 83 86)

As scum, if Keyser was scum (yeah I know hes flipped but this is a worked example on known solution kk)

If Keyser is looking to, by pressuring the noobs, crack one and suddenly he guesses one might have so much gumption because he is a PR, what might scum do?
Back off and nk them.
A player who is scum has head start in that PR guessing game, as they know in advance the "piss and vinegar" is not from rolling scum and being able to kill those you disagree with, and finally having one up on everyone else by being "in the know", they know who the scum team is, so the other ones that look like they got an "interesting" PM, could be power roles.

I was immensely conflicted at the time. I spent a large swathe of the day, being (privately) concerned about AI's alignment, especially if he had rolled scum with you(Ircher) as while it seemed less likely given how overt he was being, having recently won a scum game at LYLO in game against you, if he was now scum with you, pregame you guys might have talked yourselves into something dramatic and grandious as strategy. I couldn't make the pieces fit for anything. My plan was to let the day go by and if/when people were ever flipped then it would explain itself. (Not a D1 problem).

Returning to Keyser...
So Keysers direction flipped suddenly, I have difficulty trying to work out which kinds of reactions and direction changes were in fact motivated by guessing the play might be role related (Which can easily make townies flipping their read look to be fabricating reasons, because they are),
which were genuine reads that the person is actually in the right place just doing it badly.
Here is Keyser and pisskop agreeing with a "reason", they thought AI was trying to force us out of LYLO. 104

Here is me slowing down the progress, of my and your discussion 90, because i need to be able to temporarily walk away from a scum read on you if I am not going to flat out confront AI big time D1.
(also because I thought time would indeed help)
Here is me putting it on the never never 116 118

I had already (at 90) decided to go elsewhere that day, but did not want to be seen turning so close to me noticing Keyser turn.

Basically from my own knowledge and my own best guesses, some creative truth telling may have happened D1.

Oh well when i wrote the above spoiler, I dipped into other peoples reactions a bit. (Also know my own alignment and the reactions are all mixed up)

As contrast here is the flipped scum reacting to AI

Spoiler: Raskolnikov

But now in addition Ircher is saying he gut-reads AI despite not liking his posts and its based on something that'd be "prob. be best I didn't say.", which is kind of fishy. I don't think being in a scumteam would explain this behaviour, I get the feeling they're in a neighbourhood or something else is going on I can't understand.

Here 676 is UTL backing off from Ircher, who scum Rask thought might be in a neighborhood with AI. My best guess is that is UTL working out something weird is happening and backing off.
This 728 if they are both scum, could be UTL making sure Rask notices the previous post, or it could be UTL just explaining exactly what they say they were in 732
Those were thoughts I had earlier probably at about real time.
Reexmaining it now, 984 does not look like scum who has worked out they think AI and Ircher have some special power based relationship. (which they turned out not have)
Perhaps it was digging for confirmation?

GR :I dont find or remember significant interactions

Heat:
Sometimes the feel of the moxie in post like this one makes me wonder if the poster is scum

Spoiler: 665

scapegoat taken away from you.

Ah, it is quite fun how scum try to target the so called "easy" tarhets only to find it is way more difficult than they imagined......

don't flatter yourself.

Sometimes some people are naturally full of piss and vinegar

Spoiler: video

as for the rest of the players interactions

Would you believe I'm just feeling like being a lazy fuck right now?

HOWEVER
TLDR: I dont like the summary that just the interactions might give.

Reading UTL and heat for actual alignment using all tools available... Yields my current reads

Where i want to lynch GR and Heat, and then see if the game is over.

[AxleGreaser]

It must be daytime or playtime for you guys sometime soon?

[AxleGreaser]

@GR,

please explain why you highlighted the rd bits that you did?

In particular 622

I want to lynch AI today.

&&

push me

seem entirely unrelated to the asscoiated comments.

213

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

&&

good evidence of scum

also seem unrelated to the associated comment
676

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. also seem unrelated to the associated comment

Spoiler: an earlier post

Personally, I'm against the following lynches for D1:

{AI, Heat, Keyser, Ircher, Axle, Droog, Pisskop}

Why shouldn't we lynch Heat? What do you think he's done to stand out as a town?
[spoiler2=]

I want to lynch AI today.

Hes been avoiding questions all week, and is trying to

push me

based on stupid shit he can't even prove (how tf am I being opportunistic this game?) and I hate how he defends ircher

I've only skimmed the parts I missed but those are my thoughts atm.

Why would scum self-vote? What would they hope to gain from it?

1. I think there's a misunderstanding between Heat and me.

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

. As explained in my first game here, self-voting is objectively bad and

good evidence of scum

. I did not vote because I am wary of mislynches. Which, in Newbie 1666, you will be able to see I tend to err on the cautious side of things. Not to mention that we had three mislynches in a row that game (Zombie, who self-voted, Jake, who was being stubborn and uncooperative, and myself, because we were in lylo and there was lke a wall between me and DoTA who was town.) My reaction is normal.

I mean, self voting is bad and its a scummy action, but it doesn't necessarily make someone scum. The whole "lets PL pisskop!!" came really quickly after a few posts; I'm still holding my opinion that it was very opportunistic of you. In addition, you're now townreading pk, but you still aren't really stopping your whole policy lynch crusade? Do you still want to PL him?

The reads I gave at the time were the only reads I had. But atm they haven't changed much. AG, keysoze, and PK all seem town, although I'm not as sure on pk. I like UTL for town too.

AI and ircher are still scum. ras is getting worse.

HEY RAS WHY ARE YOU TOWNREADING ME

(you never answered </3)

@Ras Same, why are you town reading him?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

I was a little turned off by his tunnel on PK, simply because I feel like he's feeding right into PK's obnoxious game. However, it seems like he's trying to engage with him more now, instead of just poke at him, which I like. He's asked people who aren't really giving much out about their reads, including you. I really don't see anything scummy with him wanting to hear from you before explaining his reads, as at that point you really hadn't given much. Has to be a give and take, ya know? Overall, I'm leaning town on him.

(I'd still like to know about his flip flop on me.)


Heat, might I ask why you like me for town?

UTL started out with some

really strong analysis

that I liked, and I do agree with a lot of her views on players, namely keysor and Pk.

She also has an Asuna avatar and I'm SAO trash so

Really strong analysis? What does that even mean? You mean this post down here?

Let’s talk about this wagon on PK. Burning and Ras voted him in RVS, then AI jumps on the wagon, changing his vote from Ircher to PK “because he’s scum.” He later lists his reasons, where Keyser “feels like sheeping this” and jumps on too, at which point PK just gives up and selfvotes putting himself at L-2 because he doesn’t care and this game is dumb. Ircher now wants to lynch him based on his poor attitude (but isn’t doing anything about it?).

AI’s reasons for voting him aren’t bad. PK has been at him with nothing of substance, with no sense of real intent. Unless, of course, he was just trying to see what reaction he could get out of the guy that, at the time, wasn’t really contributing much either. If that’s the case, it worked. He definitely got a reaction.

What’s really bothering me is the selfvote. He says he doesn’t care about this game, and yet, he doesn’t want to let somebody who does sub in for him. At this point, we’re put in a crappy situation. If we Policy Lynch like Ircher is suggesting, he may flip town and we’re already down on day 1, which isn't a good start. If we don’t and he survives the night, he may just continue with his current level of participation (or lack thereof) and draining attitude.

I guess what I want to know, PK, is what exactly is your intent with the selfvote?

What parts of the post do you like? Do you agree that we should PL PK? Why?

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game.

I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

@Ircher, why is UTL opportunistic? Is he taking advantage of something? Explain.[/spoiler2]

[AxleGreaser]

k everyone who isn't AxleGreaser please vote UTL with me.

because....

[AxleGreaser]

I'm not good at this.

Oh yeah now I remember.

[AxleGreaser]

why don't people blindly sheep me 100% of the time?

Yeah but UTL is a billion times more likely to flip scum.

Just saying.

becuse you dont even try to give them reason to?

[AxleGreaser]

@Golden Robster

I did post a lot of walls and this was last but you have failed to address it.

@GR,

please explain why you highlighted the rd bits that you did?

In particular 622

I want to lynch AI today.

&&

push me

seem entirely unrelated to the asscoiated comments.

213

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

&&

good evidence of scum

also seem unrelated to the associated comment
676

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. also seem unrelated to the associated comment

Spoiler: an earlier post

Personally, I'm against the following lynches for D1:

{AI, Heat, Keyser, Ircher, Axle, Droog, Pisskop}

Why shouldn't we lynch Heat? What do you think he's done to stand out as a town?
[spoiler2=]

I want to lynch AI today.

Hes been avoiding questions all week, and is trying to

push me

based on stupid shit he can't even prove (how tf am I being opportunistic this game?) and I hate how he defends ircher

I've only skimmed the parts I missed but those are my thoughts atm.

Why would scum self-vote? What would they hope to gain from it?

1. I think there's a misunderstanding between Heat and me.

The reason why I sugget PL Pisskop was because he was unpleasant and self-voted

. As explained in my first game here, self-voting is objectively bad and

good evidence of scum

. I did not vote because I am wary of mislynches. Which, in Newbie 1666, you will be able to see I tend to err on the cautious side of things. Not to mention that we had three mislynches in a row that game (Zombie, who self-voted, Jake, who was being stubborn and uncooperative, and myself, because we were in lylo and there was lke a wall between me and DoTA who was town.) My reaction is normal.

I mean, self voting is bad and its a scummy action, but it doesn't necessarily make someone scum. The whole "lets PL pisskop!!" came really quickly after a few posts; I'm still holding my opinion that it was very opportunistic of you. In addition, you're now townreading pk, but you still aren't really stopping your whole policy lynch crusade? Do you still want to PL him?

The reads I gave at the time were the only reads I had. But atm they haven't changed much. AG, keysoze, and PK all seem town, although I'm not as sure on pk. I like UTL for town too.

AI and ircher are still scum. ras is getting worse.

HEY RAS WHY ARE YOU TOWNREADING ME

(you never answered </3)

@Ras Same, why are you town reading him?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

UTL, what do you think about AI?

I was a little turned off by his tunnel on PK, simply because I feel like he's feeding right into PK's obnoxious game. However, it seems like he's trying to engage with him more now, instead of just poke at him, which I like. He's asked people who aren't really giving much out about their reads, including you. I really don't see anything scummy with him wanting to hear from you before explaining his reads, as at that point you really hadn't given much. Has to be a give and take, ya know? Overall, I'm leaning town on him.

(I'd still like to know about his flip flop on me.)


Heat, might I ask why you like me for town?

UTL started out with some

really strong analysis

that I liked, and I do agree with a lot of her views on players, namely keysor and Pk.

She also has an Asuna avatar and I'm SAO trash so

Really strong analysis? What does that even mean? You mean this post down here?

Let’s talk about this wagon on PK. Burning and Ras voted him in RVS, then AI jumps on the wagon, changing his vote from Ircher to PK “because he’s scum.” He later lists his reasons, where Keyser “feels like sheeping this” and jumps on too, at which point PK just gives up and selfvotes putting himself at L-2 because he doesn’t care and this game is dumb. Ircher now wants to lynch him based on his poor attitude (but isn’t doing anything about it?).

AI’s reasons for voting him aren’t bad. PK has been at him with nothing of substance, with no sense of real intent. Unless, of course, he was just trying to see what reaction he could get out of the guy that, at the time, wasn’t really contributing much either. If that’s the case, it worked. He definitely got a reaction.

What’s really bothering me is the selfvote. He says he doesn’t care about this game, and yet, he doesn’t want to let somebody who does sub in for him. At this point, we’re put in a crappy situation. If we Policy Lynch like Ircher is suggesting, he may flip town and we’re already down on day 1, which isn't a good start. If we don’t and he survives the night, he may just continue with his current level of participation (or lack thereof) and draining attitude.

I guess what I want to know, PK, is what exactly is your intent with the selfvote?

What parts of the post do you like? Do you agree that we should PL PK? Why?

@UTL I may have missed it but what's your read on AI , for pushing on your demise? You voted Ircher instead of AI.

You know, I really don’t get his vote on me. He says I’m opportunistic, but I don’t get how. If that were the case, there are a couple of wagons I could have jumped on, but didn’t, because I wasn’t 100% comfortable with them. I reread some things, and decided to see if I could get a reaction out of him as to maybe lend some insight into his thought process. He has been defending Ircher all game, no great reasons why. So, I decided to put pressure on Ircher to see 1) how he would react and 2) if he would give any more insight as to why he’s so sure Ircher is town.

He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon

. No real insight here. But then we get this:

The town-Ircher I know from Newbie 1666 is extremely open about his views, even when they are sometimes contradictory, or controversial.

I know this, because I was the scum framing him for his mistakes. We lynched Ircher in LYLO and won the game.

I am not going to let that happen now that I am town.

@Ircher, why is UTL opportunistic? Is he taking advantage of something? Explain.[/spoiler2]

[AxleGreaser]

GR?

Axle, why is utl better looking than heat?

Spoiler: duh? OT LOL

UTL is a girl

This is not a town read of UTL this is less scummy than heat read

for avoidance of dount

before I begin:
(Given the information I have from reading peoples posts) I am committed to lynching heat this game.
I am committed to lynching heat even if they are green checked by cop (Id then believe GF)
I am committed to lynching heat even if they are tracked when 1 scum left but kill happens anyway (Id then believe ninja or whatever it is that untrackable)
(Including a rock paper scissors, so town cant use roles as a crutch, is IMO good design.)
In the presence of checks I could well change my order but the lynch would still happen before game over.

Heat

Spoiler: A piece of >potentially< mitigating context

My only read right now is that I don't think pisskop is as scummy as people are making him seem

That and I don't like ircher right. He's pushing pisskop but doesn't want to be held accountable for his lynch

D1 isn't my strong suit

So if D1 is not the strong suit and that the explanation we will see improvement in later days. yeah?
but I never saw that, so no.

Spoiler: Heats ISO.

Contains very little of what I call inquisitiveness, a particular kind of working the game out. It feel superficial and skimmy.
WHile suspect Ras for scummy stuff

I also don't like Ras. I've barely done anything to deserve a townread. It's come out way too quickly.

but soft pedaling the read.

I still don't like rask. I'm not really sure I want to lynch him today though. just gut feeling he might be a ML bait

ftr I still want an AI lynch

Wants an AI lynch

Leaves vote parked there on a go nowhere do nothing wagon all of D1. 869

bearing in mind that there is sufficient skill that posts like 698 can be written(on D1), then in contrast the rest of the day look like coasting.

Spoiler: Heat D2+

This which never happens, feels like scum thing to do when you are not entirely unhappy with those reads 625 being pursued by town

Time to go look at who AI was scumreading

but then never does it as described in the walls.
Its now D2 and with how hard I found it to get anything responsive or explanatory out of heat 1523, I have difficulty believing they wer trying to work the game out at the time.
That felt rather lot more like bunkering down

Spoiler: information

If youd like to lynch for information
While heat has expressed this level of suspicion of GR

on the other hand, I really, really want to flashlynch golden.

Rob is full of contradictions and opportunism and I'll probably vote for them when they respond to my question.

he seems fairly keen to lynch anyone but GR.

I'm ok w/that
VOTE: UTL

VS

UTL

UTL is not adopting the position of asking question and making sure they get answered. UTL does not see themselves (or the

social_role/function

as a thread leader, more of shoulder to the wheel.
So while it would be better (in the sense of would look townier to me) if the directions of the pushing D1 felt less amorphous and reactionary.
(in somewhat contradiction to that)105 107 124 130 do follow up a point in a way that does not smell overtly scummy at all.

While I didnt like

And since my vote on Ircher was more for reactions:

walking away from the ircher read due to the AI defense could easily look awkward from actual townies as described earlier in my walls.

Given my town reads, I do not feel like 984 gave themselves much room to move if the were scum { Golden, Heat, / Performer, Ircher }

1086 Feels like a legit towny read someone and voting to L-1. (I dont get a squirrely/fidgety feel)

Finally a shit hot for me reason to town read UTL over heat
UTL did not over egg this

Yes because when I flip scum, you can charge right at him. BE. MY. GUEST.

What do you mean when you flip scum?

That neither feels like a scum papering over a partners fuck up, (not SvS)
or scum trying to get mislynch target hammered into the ground. (not SvT)

So it is at least (Tv?)

[AxleGreaser]

GR?

Axle, why is utl better looking than heat?

because, GR heat and Rask got scum PMs?

[AxleGreaser]

axle.

you are bad.

please stop arguing with me.

Ok I will agree with you.

I'm not good at this.

yep I agree.



To be arguing with you about the game you would have to do something other than say "welp I am RC everybody sheep me"
What I am doing is not pandering to you.

What I am doing is playing the game myself and posting my reasoning for what I claim is so. If you cant cope with that or work around it... then Id suggest by definition

or you aren't bad, but your play in this game is.

applies more to your inability, to deal.

[AxleGreaser]

like if you're that committed to ur scumread of me then idk what to say to you dude

Well, somewhat earlier when i wanted you to play the game and shit.... you do so.

I also need to be that clear, as we might well lynch GR today, me die tonight and then information come to light...
and i want it to be clear... That losing game every time a role checks a check immune role, and losing no matter how scummy the play looks is bad.

and yeah your play in comparison to the the town reads I have is bad enough to be sure it dies before end game.

[AxleGreaser]

if i wasn't playing the game, I would have been replaced for not posting.

Yep what you wer doing in no sense contravened the rules, however you were I think interested in me not forming a strong scum read on you.

To do that you need to play the game soemwhat more than the minimum not to be force replaced.
I thought at was fairly clear from what I said.

You appear to be hiding in the strict tight meaning of words. Also not a good look.

[AxleGreaser]

Fuck off your a regular liar

[AxleGreaser]

Thats price of crying wolf.

[AxleGreaser]

fight me!

but I town read Droogs play, and my wincon matters to me.

I just have strong tendency not to believe crap that you say.

[AxleGreaser]

I have not fakeclaimed a guilty to get someone lynched since 2013.

Oh my.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Heat
VOTE: Golden Robster

[AxleGreaser]

Last i checked the vote count that was indeed the case.

[AxleGreaser]

LOL

YO Massive, feel free to do also decide to stand back and not get your hands dirty... but this was just too good.

I tilt at fakeclaims. Hate their guts. Lynch all liars and whatnot.

So as Lynch all liars kind of person ,what do you think of (rhetorical Q btw, no point/need in very body getting mud on themselves)

I have not fakeclaimed a guilty to get someone lynched since 2013.

A much more recent Fake red check by Cowbells (in a finished game Dec

2016

)

Cop here, guilty Titus.

I considered trying to push it without claiming but I feel like there's no way that's going to happen with how consistently people ignore my reads, so there you have it.

So as I said

Fuck off you're a regular liar

Seemingly very regular, you must eat lots of fiber.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP (no time travellers here)

A much more recent Fake red check by Cowbells (in a finished game Dec 2015)

[AxleGreaser]

I didn't fakeclaim to get them lynched.

What a thoroughly important distinction in evaluating the veracity of your claim here.

and FTR yoru even claimed that fake red check, while actually a cop, and then tried to unclaim cop, and wound up getting lynched for it.

If you understood the context you'd think that I'm a fucking genius for thinking to do that.

very genius....

I innod a godfather day 1 and still called him as scum. I fake redchecked Titus because she was hard pushing for a cop check on that person and I wanted to see some reactions.

yeah stopped clocks are right twice day as well.

and then you failed utterly to do the next step which was present a convincing enough argument that person with green check on them might actually get lynched.
So yeah that would be a swing and miss.

[AxleGreaser]

RC don't fuck me over.

welcome to the RC club

[AxleGreaser]

@town (well specifically the people with town PMs who are also playing for town)

So when UTL flips town, and I die....
So lynch Heat and GR

Ok?

[AxleGreaser]

FYI I was trying to see Ircher's reaction specificaly to that guilty.

IF that is you trying to unclaim the red check i suggest you be more explicit.

[AxleGreaser]

I seriously don't understand why it wasn't GR today. I'm the best NK toNight. Axle, WIN THIS GAME.

TBMK, I already did,
and it wasn't GR because you hammered the wrong wagon?

[AxleGreaser]

No actually @Massive Pisskop Ircher.

If I am dead and you flip GR and they flip town.......

Then instead lynch RC and Boon.

[AxleGreaser]

Why?

have bloody good look at todays play.

[AxleGreaser]

She's not hammered, but she should be asap.

Mores lies?

Did someone say L-1?

VOTE: UpTooLate

Amateurs...

vote: utl

VC 3.07

Golden Robster (3): Boonskiies, AxleGreaser, Ircher
UpTooLate (3): RadiantCowbells, Heat, Golden Robster
RadiantCowbells (1): pisskop

No Vote (2): UpTooLate, massive

With 9 players living it takes 5/9 votes to lynch.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-02-13 20:00:00)

NOTES

None

[AxleGreaser]

I clearly don't have an UTL redcheck.

Only Ircher would actually believe that in this game.

Yeah so boon hammered.... knowing it was a lie is what you are claiming... right?

[AxleGreaser]

1) she's not hammered
2) you suck axle.

So which of the 5 listed votes unvoted?

[AxleGreaser]

that's 4 votes.

if she was hammered I'd be ecstatic.

So you were claiming a fake red check trying to get them lynched?

[AxleGreaser]

oh it was a hammer.

goody goody

mucho bueno.

mb didn't realize.

remember, you are a liar.

[AxleGreaser]

and you by your own standards suck.

[AxleGreaser]

I wasn't trying to get them lynched.

I didn't realiez they were going to get lynched.

I wanted to see how Ircher specifically would react to a redcheck.

yeah but youy would be exstatic if by claiming fake red check you got them lynched?

no... that is you wanting to get someone lynched with a fake red check.

or more explicitly providing you partner with an excuse to hammer it and claim derps.

Which is why if GR does not flip scum I want you two dead. (well that and stuff)

but its twilight.

[AxleGreaser]

so near and yet so far?

[AxleGreaser]

but i'm le friendly le neighbour le tho

no you are an inveterate liar

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread,

Yeah I (that is me) I want cowbells dead,
no my recent reads are not biased by that.

[AxleGreaser]

Boonskiies literally just outed me as friendly neighbour

y u no beliefsings me?

y u no lie better than you do?

[AxleGreaser]

You also do remember who I name as the scum team is GR does not flip scum.

(AKA its either GR and THEN heat as a pair) (see the unanswered question these morons just ended the day without an answer to...)

or

its (RC and Boon) who mistakenly thought I had lost sight of everyone else.

[AxleGreaser]

if I'm as bad a liar as you think, why am i so good at mafiaaaaaaaaaa

Well as you nerf your town game so frickin bad (or it is frickin bad)(you rely on welp I am RC) that its best just to PL you.... that gives that half of your game head start.

and some other people apparently dont notice you lie.

[AxleGreaser]

if I'm as bad a liar as you think, why am i so good at mafiaaaaaaaaaa

rather a truck load of people thought your so good mafia play was o bad they lynched you for it in the game where i quoted you haveing the fake checks.
You htink your so good a t mafia becuase you are deluded and hold your own opinion as more accurate than those that critcise your play.

I checked your filter before, and no you dont get >called< moron all that much you just call other people morons.
So in you own opinion you are so good at mafia because anyone who says otherwise you write of as a moron.

[AxleGreaser]

if I'm as bad a liar as you think, why am i so good at mafiaaaaaaaaaa

If your as good liar as you say why did I just catch you is both fake claims even one endorsed by boon.

[AxleGreaser]

if I'm as bad a liar as you think, why am i so good at mafiaaaaaaaaaa

Well as you nerf your town game so frickin bad (or it is frickin bad)(you rely on welp I am RC) that its best just to PL you.... that gives that (edit the scum) half of your game head start.

and some other people apparently dont notice you lie.

[AxleGreaser]

@TOWN

Yeah the recent thread is full of shit, but please do read what i said, you will need to do more than the average thinking about the RC Boon thing.

One of the things keeping them alive 9town looking) in my mind was they didn't have enough potential mislynches to win. Now they do.

(So if GR does not flip scum, dont go after heat as strong as I indicated.) Ok? comprende?

In that case , RC and boon just made goodish but not good enough scum play. And RCs role fishing earlier was genuine role fishing. Which he just went on with recently.

[AxleGreaser]

*shrug*

I tried boon.

Yeah but not quite good enough.

[AxleGreaser]

1772 is probably just an error don't how it got there.
and my last response to RC is a PEDit.

@town sory about the mess I dont know when the thread will lock

[AxleGreaser]

and my last response to RC is a PEDit.

aka conceptually 1774 is before 1773, not a response to it.

and yeah i could post walls. (that would merely obfuscate things)

or trust that this post says it all

*shrug*

I tried boon.

[AxleGreaser]

No actually if i am dead use your own judgement about which order you lynch {RC Boon} or {GR heat}

use your own judgment is of course the default always going to happen thing
but I explicitly endorse that as my current read.

Id be flat out wanting RC/Boon dead, but unfortunately, ... its vaguely plausible they could do that as town

Spoiler:

Sorry guys RC/B i actually think that poorly of your town games.

[AxleGreaser]

well this (welp were busted) silence makes the plausibility of the above even more problematic of course.

[AxleGreaser]

ya that friendly neighbor claim wen right down the rabbit hole.
I have no idea why they thought that would fly. Friendly neigbor messages someone who they are at night.
It is more powerful than an IC because, it is not public.
So claiming, to have a bread crumb is just so WTF.

[AxleGreaser]

I guess it really was a rhetorical question, huh.

turned out to be.

[AxleGreaser]

I wonder what happens if I do this:
VOTE: Massive

[AxleGreaser]

...?

counting is apparently hard.

[AxleGreaser]

@Ircher

Spoiler: clarification

actually

Im not sure I know hat you mean.

we're lynching ircher today.

Nah, if we are, it'll be in LyLo.

why would it be lylo?

[AxleGreaser]

Also, Axle are you still

waiting for response to 1634/ 1700

yus.

[AxleGreaser]

I think the last scum is boon, will post more on that later.

I was tempted to put another gif here to piss of ircher but the long and the short of it is u better have some good reasoning bc I don't think he is

While i would also like to see that reasoning sooner rather than later. In the meantime...

I take you probably feel that this post means you are quite likely town.

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

and it has been widely described as evidence of one or the other but not both as that would be tooooo much.

There is problem you will have to walk me through. You appear to suspect Ircher of being scum 1789

if that true do you have an explantion of scum clustering like this

VOTE COUNT 1.15

Raskolnikov

(4): Keyser Söze, massive, AxleGreaser,

Ircher

Ircher (3): Raskolnikov, UpTooLate,

Boonskiies
droog (2): pisskop, Performer
Boonskiies (1): AlwaysInnocent
Pisskop (1): Golden Robster
AlwaysInnocent (1): Heat
Performer (1): droog

and as i recall it that did not look like a temporary or short term distancing thing.
It looked like a determined extended effort to lynch Ircher.

[AxleGreaser]

oops (sorry didnt mean that of course from your point of view you know your alignment)

I take you probably feel that this post means you are quite likely (now seen as town by other people) town.

because scum don't cluster like that.

[AxleGreaser]

i hope u like waiting though bc its going to be a few days until I can post a case on ircher.

because scum don't cluster like that.

WIFOM

any thing no matter how indicative can be dismissed WIFOM, (there is always some chance scum would do that.)

However if that is dismissed as WIFOM, so is any defense for you based on the much smaller double unexplained town read by Rask of you(heat) and UTL. And not being a sustained interaction it is far more plausible it would happen without slipups. As I said that push by those two looks like genuine attempt to lynch Ircher. I dont see signs he is scum being bussed by buddies. Do you for instance see signs hes knows that they know that ...?


Id suggest any case you make give some thought to explaining their interactions.

[AxleGreaser]

Still on my phone btw

If somebody actually looked at the post where I said heat and utl could be scum buddies they'd probably realise that I'm not scum.

I looked at it, I quoted it I asked you questions about it... because even though you claimed they were

I need to look at the interaction between Heat and UTL because frankly, they might be scum

partners

.

and at the start of the day you then claimed your previous position was...

As I stated before, I definitely think that

one of them

is scum.

and yet you who def thought one of two people was scum finished day1 voting no one?

You have never explained how that lines up with you being town and looking for and trying to lynch scum. (when you dont vote one of def pair of scum)(Huh?)

Axle's reasoning on me is poor because me and heat are not scum buddies, on the contrary I'd probably compromise with a lynch on him.

ive said that I wanted a lynch on utl or heat from the beginning. I haven't changed

Saying it is poor and showing it is are two different things.
Yup scum often do list one or more people with buddy and want to lynch into that pool. There is no problem with that being your position(willing to lynch heat or UTL) and you being scum.

You also still have not answered or explained

Also, Axle are you still

waiting for response to 1634/ 1700

yus.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler:

be like:

no more
pony zzzzzzzzz

[AxleGreaser]

Axle are you still dead set on lynching me

Do you have another plausible option, you can argue I should want lynched?
(but do first, in terms of details, concentrate on that ircher case addressing the stuff I said)

So....
there are 2 mislynches before LYLO and then LYLO... So for me to be not lynching you, Id need better cases, on 3 people.
Finding three people that look more likely to flip scum that you is a hard task.

lets assume I already want to lynch GR ahead of you as i did yesterday.
Which BTW was so i could get more idea on which you and UTL ought be best. I had a stated opinion and reasoning but other reasoning or new evidence might have changed that if the day had been allowed to play out.

UTL has flipped. so the one of the reasons i thought you were scum, (the scum associative tell from Rask is gone), and now even leans you a bit town. But anything else i saw is still there.

You two(heat UTL) both being scum looks little squirilly, but hey, >>you've<< dismissed such tells (in the case of Ircher as mere WIFOM)
So what else do you think i would have changed my mind about since yesterday that wasn't just WIFOM?

Remember we need 3 likely to flip scum lynches... and you are looking for the three most likely ones that are not you.

You like GR and Ircher, lets even say your Ircher case is great and i agreed with you... who do you think after that that looks scum?
and your going to have to convince me they look more likely to flip scum than you too.

I am kind of surprised you are seemingly surprised.

Axle are you still dead set on lynching me

[AxleGreaser]

im not against a boon lynch

really?
Err Ok.

[AxleGreaser]

I highlighted "I want to lynch AI" and "push me" because it seemed like Heat was omgusing slightly and I wanted to make a mental note of his push on AI.

Ircher's "self-voting is bad and objectively scummy" was something that I disagreed with. I've seen town self-vote and hammer themselves just because they're annoyed/tired of shit.

The UTL part was because it struck me as slightly scummy. That's why I highlighted that; it was more to do with his reasoning rather than anything else.

So...
instead of making notes somewhere else you put them in spoiler, in the thread?
(FYI: You can Pm yourself you know)
and you noted things, that you merely disagreed with such as Irchers statement, but scant say they were even particularly alignment indicative?

Please explain how UTL's "He dodges getting asked about his reads on me by PK, decides Droog is town, and moves his vote off of me to pressure Boon."
is "slightly scummy"

[AxleGreaser]

WHY WOULD I BE CRITICISING MY SCUM BUDDY SO EARLY ON, ARE YOU ON DRUGS?

yes but not mind altering or effecting ones just boring metabolism type stuff.

However you were NOT CRITICIZING ANYONE, Your post asked questions you never followed up but highlighted other unrelated idea that while you do have explanation how thye might mean something to you have no explanation how they are in anyway relevant to the questions being asked.

So yeah it is my belief, that if as i suspect you are scum, you were communicating with your buddies.

You did indeed want to

want to lynch AI today.

.
You did indeed want someone to

push you

,

[AxleGreaser]

Why would I be bringing attention*

I didn't want to lynch AI today. When did I say that? And don't bring up any insinuation bullshit.

You are making pointless assumptions that I could be scum communicating blah blah.

Let's face it; you're stubborn.

It didnt bring nay attention. You had question at Ircher inside spoiler. You never brought any attention to it by asking him to you know answer it.
You had other rhetorical questions in there.
You claim the highlighting in there was more of personal mote taking kind of thing.

That all seems wrong and made up.

So no they are not pointless and not assumptions they are the most likely interpretation of events that i have found.

[AxleGreaser]

Why would I be bringing

attention

*

I didn't want to lynch AI today. When did I say that? And don't bring up any insinuation bullshit.

You are making pointless assumptions that I could be scum communicating blah blah.

Let's face it; you're stubborn.

It didnt bring any

attention

. You had question at Ircher inside spoiler. You never brought any attention to it by asking him to you know answer it.
You had other rhetorical questions in there.
You claim the highlighting in there was more of personal mote taking kind of thing.

That all seems wrong and made up.

I am suggesting the highlighting was communication.

So no they are not pointless and not assumptions they are the most likely interpretation of events that i have found.

[AxleGreaser]

I have three lynches for you right there

As i said you will have to get not only Ircher that 3rd scum read to seem more likely to flip scum.

[AxleGreaser]

@PK AND ONLY @PK

Spoiler: no trespassing

Option 1:

read this and it makes sense.
First lets assume i am not stupid for a sec, even if you dont actually believe that.

im not against a boon lynch

im not against a boon lynch

really?
Err Ok.

Hello we aren't lynching boons fyi

The three of us seem to hold quite different opinions on this topic.

I am in the middle bit and am kinda sorta maybe confident i don't want to lynch boons.
You're up one end and heat is down the other.

Scum have problem of getting enough lynches to win, so.....
Ive been suspecting, heat, but just now ruling out boons like that, feels genuine, towny genuine.
I am quite ware of the problems with that read, as scum also would trivially want to seem genuine.
but that is my feels read that it was.
(not enough to move my heat read huge amounts, but some)

You, PK, may choose to comment or not on that as you choose.
I do have some internal conflicting going on though.

Option 2:

ignore it.

[AxleGreaser]

I'm starting to believe they killed off RC because he was the only one who believed that I was town.

Well, this one was a guess.
I guessed you'd bring that up.

[AxleGreaser]

They are assumptions.

No as they are based on me putting the most likely parsimonious interpretation I can on things i read in the thread.
They are a read based on stuff in the thread.

I evaluated on whether i thought they were more likely to be written by town for the reasons you said or by scum as means of communicating.

That you are making highlighting notes to yourself inside spoiler while actually asking questions you never seek answers to. has you both communicating with yourself via the notes and other people who you never follow up with.
Does not make sense to me ^^^^

[AxleGreaser]

Gomer Pyle me.

yeah Ok, so
UNVOTE:

[AxleGreaser]

BTW. In case that is not clear

DO NOT

end today suddenly.
I *may* wish to make sure some things get said/resolved today.

I am a bit

confuzalled

[AxleGreaser]

heat posts like this are nice and all, and I have recently got a town point on your slot.

Spoiler: nice and all

GR get ya head out of ya ass

I'd prefer Boon over heat but w/e

No.gif

i just find it funny how I was a town read of irchers going into today and now he's all like "I wanna lynch him" gurl get it together!!! Mess

Like
Wrap it around your head that boons and I are not getting lynched

but there is sense in which i am standing around with my thumb up my ass because.
You getting to speak first, maximizes your chance if you are town of saying towny things and being believed.

So instead of playing shoot from the hip

reactionary

stuff you could perhaps even _start_ on the case, or whatever it is you are going to >>

do

<<, that would be sweet.

[AxleGreaser]

I am unable to start a case bc I'm on mobile for the next day or so. I'll do my best to throw one together afterwards

Well as asking this question was doable by phone, I guess you missed the boat on it then.

I should be like confirmed town by this point.

Why should you be?

[AxleGreaser]

I propose a GR lynch ---> Boon lynch ----> (Whoever)

Solid. I'll agree with this. If we lynch you toDay and somehow you are town, I will self-vote tomorrow for the entire day. Only time I will take it off is to hammer massive/PK.

You tease,....

Spoiler:

you know self voting like that wont get you lynched.

Axles TODO:
#0 wait for heat.

#1

I still ought post my thoughts on Ircher after Heat gets back to a non phone thing.

I expect in terms of win con it will be pointless (low chance of being required) but i don't mind crossing ts and dotting is.

#2

I could i suppose think of something to say about massive, but it would possibly be hard to be as convincing as I feel.
For now it is

GR

one then the other of {heat/ircher} then

massive

.

Spoiler:

Also you do realise that there is neither excessive value, nor a requirement, for scum to kill you until say the day before LYLO.
Your lack of death, a failure to die, is not all by itself all that indicative.
And even then scum has been known in extreme circumstances to take even mod confirmed in the thread IC to LYLO.

What i do have is plain old ordinary reads, based around responses to the situation. That is what you have too.
And given that as a situation its little unusual scum do have tendency to fsk up in those situations so I up the strength of those reads a bit.
But thats it.
(your guess on who RC might have RB'd is new to me (aka if i was still counting town points)) but i think it too is a bit wishful thinking. I hadn't tried to do that. For instance, I wouldn't put it past RC to have RB'd me, RC reacts badly to suspicion.)
The odds on RC RBing Ircher may have been 50/50, but then there could have been some chance of him targetting me and some of targetting massive(1599). IME, When you go back and read RCs reads are always a bit scatter gunned, unless they are OMGUS focussed. Stuff as posted at the end, i made various plays he either did or didnt understand the motivation of, massive posted something, there is a real chance of YOLO by RC last night.)



TLDR: I know its exciting but try not to over egg it either way. kk.
Its just another tool in the box. And there are lots of tools.
Really.
Lots.

[AxleGreaser]

I propose a GR lynch ---> Boon lynch ----> (Whoever)

Solid. I'll agree with this. If we lynch you toDay and somehow you are town, I will self-vote tomorrow for the entire day. Only time I will take it off is to hammer massive/PK.

You tease,....

Spoiler:

you know self voting like that wont get you lynched.

Axles TODO:
#0 wait for heat.

#1

I still ought post my thoughts on Ircher after Heat gets back to a non phone thing.

I expect in terms of win con it will be pointless (low chance of being required) but i don't mind crossing ts and dotting is.

#2

I could i suppose think of something to say about massive, but it would possibly be hard to be as convincing as I feel.
For now it is

GR

one then the other of {heat/ircher} then

massive

.

Spoiler:

Also you do realise that there is neither excessive value, nor a requirement, for scum to kill you until say the day before LYLO.
Your lack of death, a failure to die, is not all by itself all that indicative.
And even then scum has been known in extreme circumstances to take even mod confirmed in the thread IC to LYLO.

What i do have is plain old ordinary reads, based around responses to the situation. That is what you have too.
And given that as a situation its little unusual scum do have tendency to fsk up in those situations so I up the strength of those reads a bit.
But thats it.
(your guess on who RC might have RB'd is new to me (aka if i was still counting town points)) but i think it too is a bit wishful thinking. I hadn't tried to do that. For instance, I wouldn't put it past RC to have RB'd me, RC reacts badly to suspicion.)
The odds on RC RBing Ircher may have been 50/50, but then there could have been some chance of him targetting me and some of targetting massive(1599). IME, When you go back and read RCs reads are always a bit scatter gunned, unless they are OMGUS focussed. Stuff as posted at the end, i made various plays he either did or didnt understand the motivation of, massive posted something, there is a real chance of YOLO by RC last night.)



TLDR: I know its exciting but try not to over egg it either way. kk.
Its just another tool in the box. And there are lots of tools.
Really.
Lots.

I have had a think....
and decided i will do

#1

in less than 48hrs from this post.

I propose a GR lynch ---> Boon lynch ----> (Whoever)

probably

#2

as well.

(I am actually kinda busy, but i am going to try really hard to do that. Expectation > 90%)

[AxleGreaser]

Noes. We lynch

RC(rb/dec)

or boons.

FTFY.

can haz you read all the posts?
or are you claiming "Resurrecter" cos if you are Id be sadz. I've always wanted to be able to resurrect someone and shoot them again and I am not a vig, so if you are a resurrecter that would be such a waste.

Spoiler: I am still confused?

Also resurrecter is probably not normal.

esp say reading 1888 (perhaps 1847 & 1853)

Boons has mass claimed ... by claiming what other people roles are.... including yours.
I suppose, technically, that is kind of a mass claim.

I am not totally opposed to a mass claim, (i say that through clenched teeth as I usually am, and only agree when I cant find rationalization I can believe to say no)
So for instance in this case when I also suspect I know what every bodies role is except the scums...
its not so bad.

I really woulda settled for some nodding and winking and stroking of beards, but oh well.

I claim VT.
Pocorn to Massive. (for lols?)

[AxleGreaser]

Heat, piss knows, so be weary of what he's been saying if I die.

Well that is 100% percent committed. Complete with breadcrumbs.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: yep sumthin was faptacular...

I certainly didnt get a message about you.

Heat?

Oh wait I did/

This is what I get for having so many games.

Boonies is town.

This is faphtacular.
Massive is teh scums

So I have had my pleasant drive in the country.

[AxleGreaser]

and a pleasant nap.

First I want to clear up some stuff about Friendly neighbor and what it means, but first message from 1847

Spoiler: unpacking 1847's intent and purpose

The read as written is exactly truthful and genuine and independent of reasonably certain knowledge that boon must be a FN.
(While at the same time confirming to anyone that actually knew that, that i pretty much knew it too.)
Pretty much: Scum really cant play that big a hand both heavily bread crumbing the role, hence being committed to who must be "conveniently" dead before it is claimed,
and still remain strong/plausible enough to be able to survive a probable counter claim by a probable actual 4th town power role.
perhaps if as scum you knew scum were nerfed enough that a fourth power role was unlikely? Whatever boons looked like a legit Friendly Neighbor pseudo/claim.

However whether or not that is true

if heat did not get the PM, and boons sent it to say Ircher. Then this is my read.

Scum have problem of getting enough lynches to win, so.....
Ive been suspecting, heat, but just now ruling out boons like that, feels genuine, towny genuine.
I am quite ware of the problems with that read, as scum also would trivially want to seem genuine.
but that is my feels read that it was.
(not enough to move my heat read huge amounts, but some)

if Heat did get a PM from boon, then this is my read

Scum have problem of getting enough lynches to win, so.....

Ive been suspecting, heat, but just now ruling out boons like that, feels genuine, towny genuine.

(the strong direct advice of the wiki is that scum should indeed tell the truth BUT then again even the crossed out words are true when heat got the PM, and yes i am aware of the problems in making that 'feels' read.)

I am quite ware of the problems with that read, as scum also would trivially want to seem genuine.
but that is my feels read that it was.
(not enough to move my heat read huge amounts, but some)

It is however the genuine feel of the wording, this post by heat is not scum who has recently found out a possible mislynch is gone or one that is now happy they are sure who else to nk >>>>SOMETIME<<<<.

I wanted to talk to PK as he was the one that seemed sensible enough that outing the FN wasn't ideal. My problem was i knew where the friendly neighbor and last power role was, so as scum has hit 3 for 3 power roles this game they might too. The value of a continuing charade seemed marginal. Also there exists the ??? possibility if PK, really denies knowledge of the PM, that boon had some kind of plan and it involved some confusion about where his PMs had gone, and for example heat picking up the vibe, acting as if they knew Boon was a FN, then boon killing everyone else and puppeting heat to victory? Well I have no idea what a highly implausible scum Boons plan might be.

But I also had a piece that didn't fit, I had believed Ircher was probably getting the I am a FN PM .
and now some movement, "im not against a boon lynch"

but that(trying to let a boon lynch go through) is also an impossible play by scum PK.

So to be terribly clear the straight up plain observation that Heat confirmed Boon's role, is worth pretty much nothing as that is the direct explicit largely unequivocal advice of the wiki.
The point of towniness is just the feel read on just how it was done and the words.

Also town reading of PK is not based on Boon not dying. Not killing boon, if you are town read and notified n1 is I believe required as the N2 notification will i believe still go out.
Secondly, scum nking a FN who was not heavily impacting the game like Keyser was, hints at knowledge of the role by player strongly town read. That gives heads up the game one of their stronger town reads seems possibly to be wrong.
How dangerous is a friendly neighbor if you don't get ambushed by their surprise existence at end game?

PK is town for reasons more like these

Pisskop's town for his lack of remembering this game, along with I don't believe he'd push for my lynch quite yet as scum due to him knowing he can buddy me and get me on his side. Either that or he would kill me and not be like he was day 2/3.

The read is of just how PK, played and the risks he has taken, that might well have gotten him lynched.

[AxleGreaser]

Im usually good at ... not paying attention.

Everyone is special in their own way, aint it nice to have a special skill like that.

yeah i said reasons more like those, and I meant less like these

rule out PK due to his confirmation of Boon's role --> that'd be very much against scum win con.)

(you were required even if scum to eventually confirm boons claim, and you would know that as every alignment. So as scum you

could

just have done so immediately.
We can, unless we also claim you know this too, actually give you town points for refusing to confirm it for so long.)

my reasons for town reading you would be more like the ones i will post about Massive, in a bit.

but I do like the idea of a bettlejuicing post(popping in, in a timely manner...) to claim you are not paying attention. I mean like the irony is so subtle, it hurts.

[AxleGreaser]

I will be voting GR when I finish posting, as i am quite confident GR must be scum.(POE)
also have a pretty good straight up read GR is scum.

What I want to do next is try and force myself to choose the one next person i would lynch.

[AxleGreaser]

I dont want to lynch massive today or very very probably tomorrow.
To change my mind, I would have to see GR flip town, then do shed load of reading of massive games, and workout why the following town read is false.

I liked.

The pair 108 152

In my best estimate
Massive was addressing >topic< about Keysers alignment and how to tell, that was relevant to the game, did not cast shade.
108 in no sense is a play for "look at the town cred of what i am doing". Its odds of someone else, poking for intent and finding and approving of it were low.
As scum it seems to me to have no plausible intent. (well Ok good enough scum can do that) (hence a requirement for shed load of massive meta)
Hint: not actually finding any "good enough" scum games wont entirely be enough, I knew the kind of scum game to be wary of from Aneninen before it happened.
(I stalked his first newbie game, and thought "oooh, a touch of this and twist of that and that will be dangerous as scum." )
I dont expect to change my mind on this at all.

742 Unnecessarily helped put out a fire. Unless you are just hoping someone notices and it is more helpful to your credibility than the risk of you take of offending people it is a bad scum play.

In a general sense Massive was helpful to town, in being functional and hence putting town now in a place, where POE is killing scum, including UTL who at least in part died becuase of all the people who were likely not to be scum.

Massive has limited content (by word count), has been criticized for being limited. The real question is it on target productive, proactive not just reactionary, AKA towny. I get yes as my answer.
Also content per word is higher for massive than most players.

He did not hammer, UTL but did hammer performer. Im town, and even you the reader can be certain at least one of us is. If I had been massive it is what I would have done.
Especially if i had this reason:

Bullshit. You jumped to UTL with nary a word about being suspicious about her in the last X hundred posts and want to push that with just your strength of personality? Bullshit. Come after me tomorrow.

or alternatively expressed in reading the game I expected that when massive voted he would hammer performer. (at the time i was happy with that, now I am oops)

I dont actually recall any alignment indicative reason for scum reading massive that i agree with.

PEdit:

last scum is massive. goldenrod is town.

and as my opinion is different that is why i am expressing it.

[AxleGreaser]

Oh and that overlooks any of the usual, oh look at this towny motivated post.
because i am being conservative and assuming that massive might be able to make them as scum.

[AxleGreaser]

earlier i challenged Heat with this request to explain how Ircher can plausibly be scum given a particular VC and tied that to the implication from the Rask town read on {Heat, UTL}. (both tend not to happen)

Spoiler: earlier

However if that is dismissed as WIFOM, so is any defense for you based on the much smaller double unexplained town read by Rask of you(heat) and UTL. And not being a sustained interaction it is far more plausible it would happen without slipups. As I said that push by those two looks like genuine attempt to lynch Ircher. I dont see signs he is scum being bussed by buddies. Do you for instance see signs hes knows that they know that ...?

So this town read by Rask on heat and UTL what does it mean? and more importantly why was it made.

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

Spoiler:

It is I believe fact that scum have statistical tendency not to name both partners, like that as town reads in one post. if one is scum the other tends to be town.
BUT if we are considering this then GR has flipped town... and we are straining a bit.

We know at least one was scum, and given that it is bad attention attracting play, how could you(rask) possibly make such play and name both your buddies.

The first thing of note is that, Rask didn't know it was bad attention attracting play, he made it as scum while trying to win. People do have brain fades.
I try not to attribute to much weight to any one event in filter. People post with the wrong alt, make actual posts in the wrong thread, shit happens for one post. Maybe he forgot who were his partners in this game. I kinda don't care what happened, if it is single event it for me has a maximum weight i will give it.

The story for scum Ircher is also a little credulous inducing.

Spoiler: made up story about a scum team

This scum team had two slightly more experienced player and one noob full of self doubts.
The scum QT opens and, the noob proclaims: "

OMG OMG OGM I am bound to be lynched i always get lynched OMG OMG OMG. I am SCUM.

"
<Hmmm I think thats too much: exaggeration wound back from 11 to 10>
There s pause while the two more experienced players think OMG what have I got myself into.
Noob Then says: "

I know. Hey you two gusy ought bus the shot out of me D1, I am an easy mislynch.

".
More experienced players think "phew".

The game starts, the more experienced players duely start bussing their obv scum buddy.
A huge actual white night charges back and forth through the game, hard defending the buddy. Other townies progressively town read the obv scum.
Bemused and confused, the more experienced scum stumble around and one gets his self lynched.

So yeah the scum!Ircher wagon makes sense if the scum team were actually always as the plan trying to hard bus him in particular D1 and simply failed to lynch scum, due to this enormous white night powered by
the righteousness of JOAT.

But frankly I don't believe they would have done that without it slipping.

Which is more credible?
On those two parts alone i would lynch Ircher.

I don't like the rest of heats filter as previously described.
Which would tip it back to being a heat lynch.

but I also dont like Irchers filter, which is a topic i have not discussed.

I initially misread this post

That's not my worry

it's that he said "If we are [lynching ircher], it'll be

in

LYLO" so like is he accepting that he's the designated lylo mislynch or is he scum claiming or what?

Whats wrong with the word

in

is not quite defined the way it worries me.

Why is towny thinking hard about who will make it to LYLO.
Scum have to make plans about how they will get to LYLO and who will be there with them. It is often on the top of their mind.
Its not a scum slip, but it could be scum leak where thoughts that scum think more often than town leak into the thread.

NOTE: I frequently count out who would be alive at LYLO as part of working out can X be scum and have viable plan who they will take to LYLO.
If player X has no plausible game plan they can be playing to and trying to win as scum, then they probably are not.
Something as town i try not to do, is leak that stuff into the thread to much.

Indeed i try to make sure I have a purpose/intent for each post. (lately sometimes that was fun)
What I don't get is a towny reason purpose to say 1791.

There is stuff like that in Irchers filter, and each time I say "ahhh its Just how Ircher is."
How many times can I use that before it wears out? It cant be a universal panacea.

I think reasonable question given that is how on earth can i possibly town read ircher.

I don't think I have ever been more convinced I am watching someone learn how to play town.
I don't recall watching someone learn how to play town while playing scum. Usually being scum makes such people up tight and they loose the ability to be reflective and learn.
Peoples town games frequently get better from before cum game to after one but not so much during.

This was little awkward 1088 notice the explictly not town reading performer, just not hammering is the reason.

Let's see.... Performer's out -- He's L-1 -- Will consider this one closer to deadline

and today 1854 - 1893 appears to have learned and be int he process of learning a new skill/technique.

However, if I had to pick which read i could be bamboosled in, AKA I feels strongly about the Ircher read, but know It would take much conf bias (wishful thinking) and then i would be fooling myself about it.

So if I had to reflexively shoot two people right this instant, the second would be ircher.
I am right now second guessing myself as if I instead, treat myself as being king maker between those two, and ask which play would I prefer to lose to... I get the other answer.

That is the read as it stands.

GNight.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Golden Robster

L-1

[AxleGreaser]

with Boon 100% sorted, and zero chance that is a town fuck up.

With my town read on massive clearly stated.
and analysis of whys and wherefores of Ircher and Heat in the thread.

I think the day can hopefully mercifully end.

[AxleGreaser]

Right now, huge FOS on Axle.

Well that is interesting.

[AxleGreaser]

Right now, huge FOS on Axle.

Right now, huge FOS on Axle.

Well that is interesting.

Right now, its just a speculation, but I will see if I confirm/deny my suspicions of you later.

I do have trouble lining up what you say at fist with what you say a little later.

This is a

string/confident

statement

Right now,

huge

FOS on Axle.

this

Right now, its just a speculation,

is anything but that?

So what exactly did you mean by "

huge

FOS" and what was it based on?

and this is the bit that is going to be interesting when you get back from VLA on the 20th.

but I will see if I confirm/deny my suspicions of you later.

---

WAIT -- PK is conf town.

Also: Why is he?

[AxleGreaser]

speeling EBWOP to 1973 fist => first

string

=>

strong

also I don't see the parallel to, applicability of prisoners dilema

[AxleGreaser]

and the fact you are unwilling to lynch massive.

How does that indicate I am scum?

I have explained why he is a town read. 1946

[AxleGreaser]

You reads dont make sense.

@Axle - Well, its a strong speculation based on GR's flip and the fact you are unwilling to lynch massive.

So you claim me being unwilling to lynch massive, in your view, is a fact that weighs into your { "Huge FOS" "strong speculation" }

yet you yourself

I still see Massive as a nullish read really..

So why does me having that read which I have had for while, now, weigh into anything much at all?
How does it indicate I got a scum PM.

---

This is you,
starting with a conclusion

Anyway, if Massive isn't scum, I'm right now inclined to lynch you before Heat.

that you say you are yet to investigate.

It may or may not, as far as I am concerned FoS is simply a suspicion. That's why I have to investigate.

that is the order in which scum do things not townies working stuff out.

[AxleGreaser]

Right now, huge FOS on Axle.

Well that is interesting.

@Axle
again, I'm v/la right now. Give me a week.

That is what i was doing back there (I put it in park)
then you posted some so I responded.
When you don't respond because you are VLA... you will be VLA.

[AxleGreaser]

Ha, and it doesn't have anything to do with that quote.

Ive been trying to decide which way to play this. (who I want to go first)
I have decided that I think you possibly have more concerns about my alignment than I do yours.
So i will go

Do you need to think about the town block?

[AxleGreaser]

BTW. Starting to post reasons...

was required

. Solving the "game" inside your head is not solving the game.

Ircher (1): Raskolnikov

^^ all day 1. thats not a bus, its superobvious in hindsight so scum tend to be hyperaware of that kind of crap.

So that is WIFOM(a judgement call) that the guy who made this post (fuck up) that played a significant role in getting himself lynched.

WTF why are you guys lynching pisskop
UNVOTE:

and this post which higlighted his buddy as one of a pair.

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

wont go on voting his buddy trying to bus the obv scum(for quite a while)?

an alternative explanation is that Rask is not that good at playing scum.


I am also interested by

I get the feeling they're in a neighbourhood or something else is going on I can't understand.

and wondering why masons wasn't at the top of his list.

Unlike Masons, there is no guarantee made of any Neighbor's alignment.

(knowing your buddy is not town mason is pretty good reason not to consider it.)

Also
even as scum, the strength of rasks jump off the Pisskop wagon feels odd.

However,
Rask knowing he was voting town Pisskop and getting off to vote(try to bus) known buddy Ircher, also helps explain why he over egged how much he knew he was on the 'wrong' wagon.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: @Piss Yep

I >nearly< always know what i was doing (even when i am doing two things at once one primary and one secondary)
(occasionally I make plays by intuition, da feelz, but even then often can and do rationalize them later).

3. Axle basically just repeats what he quoted from PK in 282. So, it is a bit late, but do you (Axle) remember exactly what you meant or trying to accomplish with the bottom part of that post?

282

primary purpose

You and Keiser were "at one another" / {slap , slap } It looked likely to be TvT.
277 contained enough PissKop^(tm) abrasion that Keiser reacting less than well, might happen even if he was town.
I wanted to see what happened if I kicked the tires on the { fight/ discussion/ argy bargy} (I saw no red wheels fall of any fake aggression)(i don't recall thinking either of you were townier, but if either were scum I hoped to see some kind wiggle/wriggle in how it ended.)

AKA I was being

not being dick or alignment indicative on either end of that, trying to best work out how to get an interface to happen so i can read the interactions.

and yep that pretty much leaves nothing out.

It even includes the concept that to date an interface is NOT happening.

Making interfaces happen is pro town, and i see it as such.

By stepping in as a third wheel,
Keiser has to back up and explain to himself why i seem to understand what you just said if he fails.
Especially as i suggest the process has protown

same/different happens with my posts....

aspects.
and not just more of the "not suffering fools gladly" schtick.

Pisskop has to accept I just posted on his side,

and no its not exactly too late, (It is too late for me to get points for making novel observation, but i make quite few of those.)
Keiser had not yet gone on with the slap slap. And perhaps your post would have ended it, perhaps the addition of an outside perspective did.

Secondary.

I am getting tired of the people who seemingly dont get this but probably should.

same/different happens with my posts....

so it may be of benefit to me as person going forward in terms of frustration. I usually edit those out before submit, but this one added to the posts primary purpose.

[AxleGreaser]

OH fsck.
Last reply is to ircher.

[AxleGreaser]

@Ircher

and the fact you are unwilling to lynch massive.

How does that indicate I am scum?

I have explained why he is a town read. 1946

[AxleGreaser]

If it wasn't clear above, the part about you being unwilling to lynch Massive was it seemed like scum trying to go

after the two easiest targets

.

So far I have not voted you. Go after you is not what Id call what i have done today.

Yesterday, I posted 1948, and earlier 1821
and 1948 does address the question of is it possible for you to be scum

but Id find it hard to accept you describing 1815 1821 as part of me going

after the two easiest targets

.

You say

So, I have looked through about half of your iso, and it does seem you have had reasonable reasons for the lynches you have pushed for.

As you were there and you voted, one way or the other on those lynches, I would expect you should already have known whether or not it looked like I "had reasonable reasons for the lynches you have pushed for."
That does not seem like something new you would find by rereading my ISO.

Right now, I'm leaning towards a Massive lynch though.

Why?

[AxleGreaser]

2. Well, this is based off of what you said at the end of D4. It's your stated reads plus PoE. Certainly, you would at least agree that Heat and I are probably the easiest two to push a lynch on right now?

I would agree you are less skilled, and if you and say pisskop replaced into slot with existing information, then youd be easier to lynch.

Massive, has pisskop voting him, some people have said blah blah about him hammering performer instead of swapping to UTL as pisskop demanded for no particular stated reason.
Pisskop, made a strange reasonless flip onto UTL, demanded that people sheep that for no stated reasoning then scum read the massive for not. That massive as town wouldn't seems to me reasonably predictable in advance.

heat has the either or defense based on Rask town read both him and UTL.
Ircher has the weird, both scum voting him D1, which only i have attempted to provided a scum explanation for (failed double bus thwarted by white night)

So no I don't think its slam dunk that you can fairly be described as the easy or opportunistic lynch at this point.

[AxleGreaser]

Ircher: Why is PK conftown?

Overstatement -- He is "extremely likely" to be town. I think I explained my thoughts on the matter yesterday

@Axle - Well, its a strong speculation based on GR's flip and the fact you are unwilling to lynch massive. I need to review AI's readlists, he like RC tend to somehow get effective reads despite not giving reasons....

4. PoE: Right now, I (near)conf-townread PK, I am against a Heat lynch cuz I haven't seen scum motive from him (plus the association case), and my reread of your ISO makes me trust my townread in you a lot more than before. That leaves only Massive.

I want more explanation how you reach the conclusion PK is near "conf town" / "extremely likely" / "(near)conf-townread PK"

Well, I also liked the part where he forgot he got such a pm. His reaction at finding the pm seems genuine.

I think its about at least 10 to 1, that was BS. (and not alignment indicative)

Town PK has good reason not to out boon until Boon claims.
Scum Pk knows what town Pk would do in that situation and has good reason to do the same.

Boons Friendly neighbor as a power role is not immediately dangerous, just unlynchable so it had to die eventually (usually best before LYLO), but there was no particular hurry if scum knew who it was.

[AxleGreaser]

Please explain the recent strength of your near conf town read on PK.
again
in more detail.

[AxleGreaser]

SERIOUSLY KNOCK THIS OFF

[AxleGreaser]

yea.

ill do more here.


lets start with what we agree upon.

is heat town?
am i town?

Are you asking the mod?

My answer would be.

PK: not entirely sure. (I was, but that was relative to my actual scum reads, some of which then flipped town)
Heat: and not entirely sure.

But you were discussing things with massive (or making a case against him) last i saw.

and I have question in the air to Ircher that answering you more explicitly would preempt.

You had previously also summarily put Ircher in that pool

Ircher (1): Raskolnikov

^^ all day 1. thats not a bus, its superobvious in hindsight so scum tend to be hyperaware of that kind of crap.

What is super obvious in hindsight?

Both the flipped scum pushing a low hanging fruit lynch as the counter wagon? (Ircher Town)

Both the scum voting a buddy they intend to Bus? (Ircher Scum) The points they raised about Ircher were as i recall basically genuine.
Rask was lynched largely for his odd jump off you, (and his responses after and about that) not for anything strange about his push on Ircher.

As pointed out by Massive it was not all day.

They were both on Ircher, until they noticed something weird with AI. (UTL @676 then flagged again to Rask 728
Then they both got off. 758

I am not seeing an actual argument it was not a bus.

[AxleGreaser]

The real issue that springs to mind wrt icher is that they voted you after I did. Im not sure why they did, I have reread that section, but once they saw it wasnt going through they unvoted.

I didnt even notice until recently it was so quiet.

It was not just that.
Ircher started the day portraying strong/ positive/ proactive

Spoiler:

Ircher Feeling his oats

Let's make this clear:

WE ARE USING ALL OUR TIME TODAY

Also, it is

3

to lynch

Right now, huge FOS on Axle.

but then it all went to wishy washy. 1975 1977

and the scum story that matches that, is as scum, the end is in sight. He just needed one 'hard to get' mislynch. {PK/Mass/Axle}

So first there was false run at me (1963+++), then a naked flip onto Massive (2012) (by reason of POE(2021))
but conveniently dropping in behind PKs, town block.

A previous recent Ircher statement on Massive was.

I still see Massive as a nullish read really... He just doesn't post enough for me to guage his alignment.

[AxleGreaser]

I do think Axle is town. There have been way too many times that he's posted my exact thoughts. If someone is reading the game the same way I am, then I tend to think they're the same alignment.

That is the basis of my town read on you, except i chuck in an extra twist of liking to find places where I also don't think you'd bother(or risk) faking that part as scum.
EG, being concerned (on a wait and see basis) by Kaiser's interaction with newer players. Turns out hes just a nice guy.
742 Seems like risky way as scum to try and get town points by breaking up a fight(dong measuring contest)

It also explained to me what was frustrating me but i had not yet verbalised.
Saying what I am going to think later, when I work it out gets double points.

[AxleGreaser]

@Massive
WAIT --

PK is conf town.

Overstatement -- He is

"extremely likely"

to be town. I think I explained my thoughts on the matter yesterday

Yeah you did explain your thoughts yesterday and they were different

Pisskop -

Meh, it is unlikely he's scum.

Furthermore, he has confirmed Boon as town, something that scum definitely wouldn't want. There's no reason scum would even consider that as only 1 remains, so unless the mod is bastard (and mind you this is a normal game), PK cold tech. be considerd conf town for confirming Boon.

When it

cha

nged

since yesterday.

3. Convenient? Um, no. Just, no. I just haven't had time to explain my PK read.

and that change happened(1970) right after when PK implicitly town read you 1968 and heat into the town block.

and the stuff your current PK read are made out of..
2041 and

The only thing that worries me about PK is he is scumread in all 4 of AI's official readlists.

don't look confusingly similar to conf town. (they might be strong lean)

Spoiler:

note that is not me arguing with the truth of the read, or individual conclusions, it is me saying what your read means to you even if you believe it all.
A distinction between conf town and strong reads is that conf town players are town for all to see and its not about personal interpretation of events.

I feel like what you want your reads to be comes first then you are finding explanations that fit as best as you can.

[AxleGreaser]

I recommend ISO rereads of [...] and AI today.

Why are you specifically recommending AI and not say Keiser? (or the other flipped experienced townies?)

Keiser would be by I think most estimates the more skilled player?
Apart from that.
AI played D1 as bit of a loose cannon and frequently didn't explain himself.

[AxleGreaser]

ya.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... overview=1
Ok.
Game is dead? == seemingly no one has anything they are doing


The game is for me in an "interesting state"
So if Ircher and heat are planning on Voting Massive today
(also if they are planning on voting pisskop or me. I will need about 24 hrs notice before hammer.)

(There are certain things that I regard as inaccuracies, in the thread. If the three of Pisskop Massive and Myself are alive com night time i am ok with that.
There are actual frequently times when I look at the thread and say wtf. And just walk away from it as per (because of the idea in 2030)
So normally I just let it slide. Tomorrow however, if only one of Pk or massive are alive then stuff can potentially get spun without any check or balance.

Example. (I don't actually know how much more there is, I just know I have felt: bleh about stuff.
As i recall it, whats seem to me to be Inaccurate/unclear things have been said about Boon and the friendly neighbor. In an of itself i don't regard that as alignment indicative: people do that.

Boon Town read Pk all D1 (See reads lists 612 etal). Boon had the mod PM PK N1 that boon was mod confirmed to be the FN.
On night 2 a theoretical scum PK cant sensibly kill Boon as after a friendly neighbor flip in hindsight it would have been obvious who he PM'd or at least a very small pool of obvious.
That (non death) is thus 100% non alignment indicative for competent players.

Boon brought up the whole notion of FN, by awkwardly claiming to be the best night kill(1736), then flipping it into fake claiming RC was the FN.

PK only refused to acknowledge the PM from boon, but at the time boon had not explicitly claimed. At that time townies lying about power roles they are aware of is just fine. Making up BS (PK forgot,yeah.... no.) to avoid explicitly stating you had lied is also SOP.

Valid Reads that may or may not exist on exactly how all that stuff can only reasonably be made in light of understanding what actually happened.

Ima going to be sad , if scum dont flip today, I die tonight and the thread runs down a rabbit hole made of untruths. I can live with it if i am guaranteed BOTH of PK and massive are alive if I am dead.

Thus:

The game is for me in an "interesting state"
So if Ircher and heat are planning on Voting Massive today
(also if they are planning on voting Pisskop or me. I will need about 24 hrs notice before hammer.)

[AxleGreaser]

Tick tock.

I think we should lynch Massive cuz there's no alternative.

There is none for you, but i have one.

VOTE: Ircher

[AxleGreaser]

As stated previously one of the best reasons to town read Ircher would be the D1 voting of the flipped scum (UTL & Rask).

I conclude it was a failed/thwarted, and then called off, attempt to seriously bus (not just distance).
I conclude the overly strong Rask flipping off the PK wagon, was due to TMI (he knew Pk was town and knew he was now voting scum, so he was overly enthusiastic about the switch.)

Ircher's filter is full of odd stuff that rings standard scum tell bells.
Ircher appear to be naturally self aware, introspective, human, but it also does keep seeming that has been exacerbated by getting a scum PM
1800 and all the other numerous times.

[AxleGreaser]

Also, partly for fun (evryone else seems to enjoy saying it) and also for reals.

As described previously
Irchers play today, has been "opportunistic", and go with the flow.

First a false bravado Pelican push on me then, dropping in behind PK.

[AxleGreaser]

My thoughts on the matter:

we lynch massive, if we have a tomorrow the NK is most likely going to be pretty obvious.

And then we explore.


If we lynch icher and he flips town we end up in a prickle of massive/axle/pk.


pedit: then vote him. Were waiting on a flip.

Who is the "we" batman.... don't you expect to or worry about dying?

If you lynch Massive there is odds that only one of you or I will be alive tomorrow.
You profess not to know my alignment either, why arent you worried about the exploring being done by me and heat and ircher and me bamboozling them with logics and an ocean of words?

If massive (as I suspect) flips town and then if you are scum you kill me.....

Then I am kinda pissed.

If we lynch ircher and he flips town.

Then any of Massive PK and Axle that are scum can only kill one of the others not both.
Hell if i was scum in heats position, (im not and wouldnt be but scum I have seen who would be in heats position)
Id expect him to kill whichever one of us seems best and puppet Ircher, and patsy the last one with paranoia.

Lynching massive seems suboptimal and not just because of reads but the balance of power.

[AxleGreaser]

a paranoid me would say you want the icher flip so you can have massive back you up tomorrow.

Yeah the lynch massive plan would in no sense be an ideal strategy for you as scum?.

Are you claiming that if i was scum, id shoot You or Heat?
I ma pretty sure that if only two of Massive Axle and Pk are alive tomorrow there will be plenty of


I know Id get antsy, if scum shoots you.

[AxleGreaser]

LEaving heat alive in any scenerio is rubbish

Bullshit.
If you are scum you shoot me and claim "Welp I guess Axle was right vote Ircher." ez game ez life.

You only need one patsy and one puppet.

[AxleGreaser]

My last post is not reply to 2060... as i hadnt read it first. But it works as one.

[AxleGreaser]

You dont put the fate pof your faction in the hands of somebody else. you dont. its bad play, its bad philosophy, its how irl dictators are made. you dont do it.

Scum at 3 man Lylo always puts their fate in the puppets hands.
The tries to get the puppet to lynch the patsy.

If they can manage it sure they get a situation with both players puppets and patsies, where both town want to lynch the other one, but you have to take what you got.

In thos case scum!PK lynching Massive, NKing Axle...

Then being left with Ircher and Heat, and patsying Ircher, is a fine plan.

[AxleGreaser]

We arent leaving massive and you alive.

You have one vote. There is now we that you speak for.
Are you claiming we are buddies or something.

You have no real frickin case against massive and never have.
Your flip onto UTL is as likely a TMI based scum fake push on buddy which he knows massive would not bite on.
With your rude and abrasive reasonless demand that massive swap wagons he was even less likely than if you had simply swapped and politely asked him to consider it.
At that time and since, I have had more scum leanings on you for that swap than I did for massive and not swapping.
I have however been letting that play out to see how genuine i thought your read was.

'balance of power' my ass. Your case rifwe with wifomous conjecture. starting to look a lot like youre planning lylo out. had a llot of time to do so, hunh?

Arse backwards.

Lynch Massive nk Axle, ez game ez life for PK.

[AxleGreaser]

vote:axle

I dont have the interest in playing footsies with you.

Yeah, but other than being tired of foreplay,

do you have nay actual reason to claim i am scum?

[AxleGreaser]

You have been scum reading Massive for the hammer vote, but for some reason always didnt seem concerned by

GR who put it back at L-1.

Why'd you switch PK? Go hammer him down.

[AxleGreaser]

sure. you keep pushing for icher depspite his being on utl.

were you on utl?

Nope, that matter of record, as stated I thought the lynch i was driving was on scum. I am town i get stuff wrong.
You never have explained how you knew to switch.

I still don't actually see you claiming anything at all alignment indicative, about me or my posts.

[AxleGreaser]

or why you would switch to UTL and simply demand that other people do with no reason at all.

I believe you are well experienced enough to know that is unlikely to actually sway the wagon.

[AxleGreaser]

One of you is dying.

That would seem to be a requirement for a scum pisskop to win the game yes.

[AxleGreaser]

Do you yet have explanations for your various plays such as
why swap to UTL?
and why do it like that?

Why you only mentioned scum reading massive >>>for the vote<<< on UTL when GR also both voted Performer and advocated a hammer.
It is true hat GR was already lynchable and for scum PK to win what was needed was one more mislynch than seemed likely.

[AxleGreaser]

@THREAD

LEaving heat alive in any scenerio is rubbish

Bullshit.

If you are scum you shoot me and claim "Welp I guess Axle was right vote Ircher." ez game ez life.

You only need one patsy and one puppet.

Also as you have now flipped to voting me.

If you are scum you and you succeed in lynching me then shot massive and claim "Welp I guess Axle was right vote Ircher." ez game ez life.

(not so easy anymore) (as i said I had stuff to say, if any of PK Massive or Axle die today) (also i may not be done yet)

[AxleGreaser]

Hey, look, hes asking me to prove Im town rather than positing why Im scum

No I just asked you to explain yourself.

and the actions you claim are from person with town PM.

You still have not provided no alignment indicative statements about me at all.

[AxleGreaser]

Do you yet have explanations for your various plays such as
why swap to UTL?
and why do it like that?

Why you only mentioned scum reading massive >>>for the vote<<< on UTL when GR also both voted Performer and advocated a hammer.
It is true hat GR was already lynchable and for scum PK to win what was needed was one more mislynch than seemed likely.

Hey, look, hes asking me to prove Im town rather than positing why Im scum

So is that you not answering those question yet again?

You never answered this flipped townies questions either.

Why'd you switch PK? Go hammer him down.

@PK, Why did you switch your vote to UTL at this point?

Him.

psure performer is a he.

Now listen here, Im sherrif of this here town, and I also jus' happen to be the champion of this here wagon. Get. Back. On. or give me reasons Im wrong.

What's this eh?

Dislike this immensely. State your reasons for changing.

were they out to get you too?

[AxleGreaser]

wow.

Look at axle cherrypicking emotional reactions.
How about you also quote the parts where he townread boons earlier and scumread him later, or how he votes with me on utl.

Youre getting roped for being scum

NO I asked you to explain your previous actions.

[AxleGreaser]

In case you "forgot" these are the questions

Do you yet have explanations for your various plays such as
why swap to UTL?
and why do it like that?

Why you only mentioned scum reading massive >>>for the vote<<< on UTL when GR also both voted Performer and advocated a hammer.
It is true hat GR was already lynchable and for scum PK to win what was needed was one more mislynch than seemed likely.

After those i have may more.

After all you do profess to be town.
You (if you are town) don't know for certain my alignment,

So if you lynch me and i flip town, then if you are town it is important to you that i dont go the grave proclaiming you as scum
As such explaining yourself, if you are town should be in your best interests.

BUT you keep spinning me asking you questions about your play in some sort of exaggerated alignment indicatve emotive claim.

[AxleGreaser]

how about you go find reasonable scum-motivation for it?

How about you simply answer questions about your play?

[AxleGreaser]

Scum motivation in not explaining your play, as you have been doing for a while, is that lack of transparency makes it harder to get caught out.

[AxleGreaser]

This is happening.

youre not goign to be able to out shitpost a shitposter

So now you are flat out refusing to explain your play?

[AxleGreaser]

or you just need a reason to get mad and vote unde cover instead of manning up

mad ?

LOL.

[AxleGreaser]

how about you go find reasonable scum-motivation for it?

You could read the thread,
that is if you were trying to work out whether my read on you has any basis at all, and hence find out if I am town and wrong or actually scum.
You appear a little uninterested in knowing what I think and why.

Do you yet have explanations for your various plays such as
why swap to UTL?
and why do it like that?

Why you only mentioned scum reading massive >>>for the vote<<< on UTL when GR also both voted Performer and advocated a hammer.
It is true hat GR was already lynchable and for scum PK to win what was needed was one more mislynch than seemed likely.

or why you would switch to UTL and simply demand that other people do with no reason at all.

I believe you are well experienced enough to know that is unlikely to actually sway the wagon.

You have been scum reading Massive for the hammer vote, but for some reason always didnt seem concerned by

GR who put it back at L-1.

Why'd you switch PK? Go hammer him down.

So you need one more mislynch than there seemed to be on the table.
By swapping off performer and onto UTL but doing it in way people wouldn't sheep you. You keep the performer mislynch, but also get ripe territory for claiming massive is scum.
You already have GR in mislynch territory, so there is no need to call GR out for that at all.

That about as scum motivated as a play can get.

I also had potential town motivations for making the play, but those required that you were not totally serious about this push on Massive for that.

[AxleGreaser]

Good. So now instead of pandering for support, how about you vote like a man?

I am not pandering for support I am and have been voting my biggest scum read.

I am asking you to explain yourself. You are refusing.

In fact I am asking you to defend yourself on the off chance you are town. I know I am town I will flip town. If you do succeed at this and have not explained yourself and happen to be

A Pisskop who is "not suffering (Those he pecieves but ae not actually) fools gladly" then wed loose.

But hey are you actually claiming you have no reasonign at all you intend to present to the thread that

answers my questions
or explains why I am actually scum?

You just want it to be a dong contest.

[AxleGreaser]

i am toying in my mind the idea of axle scum
and i think it might actually make sense

Cool do you have reasons?

Pisskop seems fresh out.

If you are town and want to vote me please bring reasons.

[AxleGreaser]

Like fuck, do you have to file an application to vote where you come from?

are you claiming to be scummier than ircher?

because i vote my biggest scum read not just engage in dong measuring contests when anyone demands one as you have.

So do you have something actually alignment indicative to day about me or not?
So far all you got is your vote and your bravado/ego.

[AxleGreaser]

Hey, look, hes asking me to prove Im town rather than positing why Im scum

No I just asked you to explain yourself.

and the actions you claim are from person with town PM.

You still have not provided no alignment indicative statements about me at all.

[AxleGreaser]

Axle

: Why does scum-pisskop switch from Performer to UTL and risk losing his second buddy by D2? Performer's lynch was in no way guaranteed there, even with me stating intent to lynch. If he's looking for town points by switching off a mislynch, why not just unvote?

I am voting Ircher.

But the plausible scum reason i thought of was, that he did so, so abrasively that there was little chance of you swapping at all.
When i saw him do that I thought there was very little chance of the wagon changing course.

Indeed GR popped in shorlty afterwards and put it back at L-1 and was immediately suspicious of the swap.
You reacted strongly to it.

Exactly how much risk was there that you would when asked like that swap?

Unvote is passive.
He also needs mislynches.

He scum reads you for not switching but did not voice any opinion on GR for advocating the hammer go ahead.
he as scum did not need more reasons to scum read GR, he did you.

Thats how it fist in scum scenario.

How is it town motivated and why has he been unable and unwilling to say why he swapped?

[AxleGreaser]

You cant outshit a shitposter, axle. When I let out bait, you walked right into it.

As I am not shit posting but asking you questions i fail to see your point.

But you now claim not to have an alignment indicative read, but to have laid and baited a shit posting trap?

[AxleGreaser]

the things i have in my head rn are:
AI was killed when i think they were the only one who wasn't townreading you
You said you were willing to lynch me so much you would assume i was godfather if i was innocent'd. where'd that confidence go

UTL flipped scum.
That read was if you go back and look in case i died. (people discard dead peoples reads allt he time, if UTL flipped scum after i died theyd have discarded mine)

the fact u were so townread but not NKed yet is like... meh

They shot probable power roles, or good/influential players.

also you kept on insisting u were about to be the nk which gave me bad feels

cant argue with feels.
but hey if you were expecting me to be killed whats wrong with me having the same opinion?

I kept wanting to make sure there were ideas in the thread if I died.

[AxleGreaser]

You gonna die.

you gunna look soooooo bad then.

Sure you don't want to do the towny thing and explain the reasons for your plays?

[AxleGreaser]

I dont see you and massive getting support from heat (or icher, lol) to lynch icher. Soo . . . that leave you and massive.

Soooo, having worked that out

your play is to simply never ever actually state your reasonging for why I am scum.
and hope the inevitable take its course and that way you can lynch me and keep your hands clean?

because you havent explained why you claim i am scum, just that you do.

never ever answer my questions, other previous townies, questions about why you flipped off the Performer wagon onto UTL.

How on earth you can legitimately scum read massive when it was relatively obvious that with such an abrasive push for UTL by you
that switch by Massive would just not happen.

[AxleGreaser]

Im quiteokay with looking bad. Mafia isnt about looking good. idk why so many people think thats the apex of play.


Question is, are you done straddling the fence and hedging your bets and generally being scumish? I havent been thrilled with you since Day 01.

I didnt say that, I said that after I flip town, that if you are town and have consistently refused to explain yourself you will look bad and by that i meant scummy.
If you are town, and can thus explain yourself it is in your best interest to do so.

You however are refusing to explain yourself which suggest you are scum, and I imagine by now are stuck in your pigheaded stance and cant work out how to back out of it.

[AxleGreaser]

Good, then its decided that you are scum?

only by you.

[AxleGreaser]

Good, then its decided that you are scum?

only by you.

and when I flip, at lynch/nk or in post game the mod will disagree.

[AxleGreaser]

Im quiteokay with looking bad. Mafia isnt about looking good. idk why so many people think thats the apex of play.


Question is, are you done straddling the fence and hedging your bets and generally being scumish? I havent been thrilled with you since Day 01.

What hedging bets?

I scum read Ircher i was voting Ircher.

You have indeed been posting scummily, and pushing a scum agenda in pursuing Massive with BS then flipping onto me as you did.

I am not sure if i get lynched which one person i would suggest for tomorrow.

That why I want you to answer the questions and play to your town win con. You appear keen not to.

[AxleGreaser]

Hey, Im not the one spreading shade around like it was lays.

you are the one refusing to explain your plays.

[AxleGreaser]

That last post, look at all the defensiveness.

look at all the dodging.

[AxleGreaser]

Hey, who do you think is coming out of this looking worse?

I don't actually know which way peoples head are tending. Not all that important to me.
id prefer not to get mislynched, but if that makes scum make plays that outs them and town wins anyway I am all good.

I know objectively your play is in fact scummy.

You have been dodging giving answers for the reasoning behind your play consistently for several days.

You have bad read on massive based on BS, about him not flipping to UTL just because you said so and refused to provide reasoning.
I gave that space to play out because one it was not for me to defend and besides if you got read on massive via that so would I.
But you have pushed that like you claim you actually believe it is a genuine read, and I am confident you ought know better,
and you ought know that when you were as abrasive with your request to flip onto UTL as you were, it was unlikely to happen.
For a while i thought it was long bow to draw that you would/could do that knowing/hoping the flip onto UTL wouldnt happen. I am starting think you did.
(

Spoiler:

either that or if the less liekyl event the flip onto UTL did happen youd hope ride the credit home

)
That you still refuse to talk about why you wanted the flip or acknowledge your push on massive based on it was bad. Also looks bad.

You are/were now angling for position where you can get to an endgame scenario you could win.
Given all i have said about the NK, I think its now a fair bit up in the air who as scum you would nk.

I know that your apparent objective is to get me lynched. Letting people know why, or lynching me for being scum is seemingly secondary.
You seem intent on trying to make it about a shit posting contest or battle of wills, you claim to have baited trap that i walked into not claim to have found out that I got scum PM.

You have not answered question i have asked, that would let me find out your motive. If i flip that will be yet another flipped towny you have simply refused toe engage with.
lack of transparency looks pretty bad.

So I don't know if i look worse that that to people fueled by paranoia and whatever shit posting you have managed.
I am not real good at reading how believable the tripe you have dealt out is.

but if I flip, I will look mod confirmed green.
At that point it would be hard for that to be worse than however you will look.

[AxleGreaser]

Hey, who do you think is coming out of this looking worse?

Also my plan is , If as you claim is going to happen I am getting mislynched, I will find the scum who are on my wagon, or the scum to chicken to try.

So far You look wayyyyy worse than heat.
Your push is seriously devoid of reasons I am scum.
and is supplemented by healthy dose of continuing to avoid answering questions no asked by multiple townies.

[AxleGreaser]

if i die, i will look green

Will you?
No one is even voting you.

Way to ignore the substantive game relevant part of what i said

You have been dodging giving answers for the reasoning behind your play consistently for several days.

You have bad read on massive based on BS, about him not flipping to UTL just because you said so and refused to provide reasoning.
I gave that space to play out because one it was not for me to defend and besides if you got read on massive via that so would I.
But you have pushed that like you claim you actually believe it is a genuine read, and I am confident you ought know better,
and you ought know that when you were as abrasive with your request to flip onto UTL as you were, it was unlikely to happen.
For a while i thought it was long bow to draw that you would/could do that knowing/hoping the flip onto UTL wouldnt happen. I am starting think you did.
(

Spoiler:

either that or if the less liekyl event the flip onto UTL did happen youd hope ride the credit home

)
That you still refuse to talk about why you wanted the flip or acknowledge your push on massive based on it was bad. Also looks bad.

You are/were now angling for position where you can get to an endgame scenario you could win.
Given all i have said about the NK, I think its now a fair bit up in the air who as scum you would nk.

I know that your apparent objective is to get me lynched. Letting people know why, or lynching me for being scum is seemingly secondary.
You seem intent on trying to make it about a shit posting contest or battle of wills, you claim to have baited trap that i walked into not claim to have found out that I got scum PM.

You have not answered question i have asked, that would let me find out your motive. If i flip that will be yet another flipped towny you have simply refused toe engage with.
lack of transparency looks pretty bad.

So I don't know if i look worse that that to people fueled by paranoia and whatever shit posting you have managed.
I am not real good at reading how believable the tripe you have dealt out is.

[AxleGreaser]

But, its also showing us where his head is.

So if you have worked out I am town now, who do you want to lynch?

and this time, for change, why?

[AxleGreaser]

My apologies. I have no problems at all, but to help avoid the chance of me getting one.
As a human.
My preference would be, that people talking to the mod do so, and not be seen talking to the mod.
In my view thats what PMs are for.

That is my human preference, and I have the expectation its peculiar to me,(otherwise it would be a rule) hence everything about this post is OOC.
It will help me keep it all OOC if most mod communication was by PM, unless say correcting VC's, which is a time critical factual thing.

[AxleGreaser]

and this time, for change, why?

[AxleGreaser]

Well then you need to list reasons why each could be scum

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread
yeah... if you want to talk to me about these and related statements by Ircher... then after i have talked to him... k
Lets just say my wife looked very pretty covered in wheaties.

Whic, nking any of the rest of us 4 not only gives town info, but scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town.

I am intrigued by your thought process. (I have some other feelings but they don't seem very relevant)
I know you have moved on to suggesting no lynch and then your even more recent posts.
But I want to know what you were thinking when you wrote this post.

Questions.

Why do you think this. "scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town."

What info will the other nk you would, according to your post above, force scum to make give.

[AxleGreaser]

For avoidance of doubt

Spoiler:

@Thread
yeah...

if you want to

talk to me

about these and related statements by Ircher... then after i have talked to him... k
Lets just say my wife looked very pretty covered in wheaties.

that in no sense is meant to preclude this interaction

Pisskop. Ircher is too scummy to be scum. what are your thoughts on that concept.

because the amount of shit that ircher has said, like no lynching today
it's almost absurd to come from town

but at the same time I don't really see scum making that many scummy posts? cause when I'm scum I put effort into not making scummy posts whereas when im town i just kinda contradict myself left and right and like

hm

Which probably more important to me.

[AxleGreaser]

ANNOUNCEMENT

I will extend the deadline 24 hours by request.

NEW DEADLINE

(expired on 2016-02-28 08:00:00)

NOTES

In the future, V/LA should be used for schedule problems that are foreseeable in advance.

@massive
what is your status regarding the new deadline and your own availability.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

Additional clarity

Spoiler: @Thread

yeah... if you want to talk to me about these and related statements by Ircher... then after i have talked to him... k
Lets just say my wife looked very pretty covered in wheaties.

<I thought that was a trope. The image i meant to conjure was me {

eating breakfast, reading something, and involuntarily spraying my mouthful of wheaties across the table

}.>

---

@Ircher

Whic, nking any of the rest of us 4 not only gives town info, but scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town.

I am intrigued by your thought process. (I have some other feelings but they don't seem very relevant)
I know you have moved on to suggesting no lynch and then your even more recent posts.
But I want to know what you were thinking when you wrote this post.

Questions.

Why do you think this? "scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town."

What info will the other nk (according to your post above,) you would force scum to make,
give.

[AxleGreaser]

I'll respond tommorrow, hopefully

I will see what I can do about refraining from commenting further until you do.
The impending deadline however is problematic in both
giving you time to explain yourself (and you have the best chance as town to do that by explaining in advance)
and me comment further,
and also give people time to discuss it and then vote, before they go away for the weekend...

[AxleGreaser]

Massive, do I need to remind you Ive seen you play as an SK before?

and why would reminding him of that be of any use to him?
or make any difference to him?

or is your intention to point that out to other people?

[AxleGreaser]

Ok I am here and posting.
The TLDR is that :
If I get flipped we meet my one of {PK,Massive,Axle} criteria so I have stuff I think needs saying today.
I have not yet fully digested whats happened since I last posted, but iw as and am voting the one person most likely to flip scum
Assuming you mislynch me you will be at LYLO with one and only one lynch. I suggest you lynch Ircher.

I will be pissed off it is, PK, but if it is, he beat you guys and I would agree out maneuvered me.

PEdit ... and i am not at L-1 again.
Given the time frames i intend to continue.

I am flip flopping between ircher and axle but i cant seem to make up my mind.

Ircher, I would like you to actually come up with scumreads instead of lynching someone you do not believe in

I would love the fuck out of that.... because if you are town and i get lynched then
I ruuuuuuuuuly would like to be able to recommend PK, but currently I just can't.

[AxleGreaser]

Well, my gist as far as the Axle nk is that Axle is prob. the best player still alive right now. While he isn't always right,

he does good job of looking town and always makes supported reads

. In other words, it would be very difficult, though not impossible, for scum to frame and have Axle lynched in LyLo.

Which as I read it amounts to quite significant amount of confidence I am town.
and according to you wouldn't get mislynched in LYLO.

and yet...

Hmmm.... Ok, I

made up my mind

:

Intent to hammer Axle in ~15 hrs (Idk, between 11 and 1 EST)

@Axle
Final comments?

So yes indeed

Now, why?

made up your mind

about what?
for what reasons?

Is this for instance the reason you have stated intent to lynch me?

Well, my gist as far as the Axle nk is that Axle is prob. the best player still alive right now. While he isn't always right,

he does good job of looking town and always makes supported reads

. In other words, it would be very difficult, though not impossible, for scum to frame and have Axle lynched in LyLo.

and I note you have stated intent before getting a vote or commitment from Massive, which is incompatible with this intent

Let's make this clear:

WE ARE USING ALL OUR TIME TODAY

which was something you seemed fairly adamant about earlier.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP: if it was unclear that quoted heat but was at ircher.

I would love the fuck out of that.... because if you are town and i get lynched then
I ruuuuuuuuuly would like to be able to recommend PK, but currently I just can't.

(AKA If he(ircher) is town.... he should play and stuff... and show me.)

[AxleGreaser]

and I note you have stated intent before getting a vote or commitment from Massive, which is incompatible with this intent

Let's make this clear:

WE ARE USING ALL OUR TIME TODAY

which was something you seemed fairly adamant about earlier.

DISCLAIMER: Means up to 36 hrs before deadline.

Yep so if the game was about following recipes (playing scum would be easy) that would make sense you have not done anything quite outside that simplistic rule.

However as pointed out above although you fall within the literal meaning of your clarified 36 HR rule.

It is seemingly incompatible with its town aligned intent. As was explained here.

and I note you have stated intent before getting a vote or commitment from Massive, which is incompatible with this intent

As town curious about both my and Massives alignment you would/should have wanted to waited for his input.

You have not addressed or explained why you were not interested in waiting for Massives input at all.
Please do so?

[AxleGreaser]

@Thread A number of posts perhaps interspersed with the others will contain the statement
LWT (last will and testament) and then have spoilers. Pls dont read them. Today. (or even tomorrow if I happen to be alive and the game continuing as we mislynched someone other than me today)
If you do read them today dont come whining to me about how they do this or that, their intent is to read IN THE CONTEXT of me being flipped dead townie and you getting to know unequivocally what i thought.

LWT

Spoiler: Heats reasons (read >>>>if<<<< I have flipped) not relevant today

Heat has actually posted again the reasons in the thread 2202 that he would be prepared to lynch me.
A minor feel reads is that scum!heat would have been tempted to sheep PKs approach of just scum reading with basically no actual reasons at all. OR would in making the read make other mistakes, he didnt do those.
Why am i adding minor town leans for Heat?
because apart from the belief that scum bad enough to flip off PK as they did (and if heat is scum it was off PK onto ALSO low hanging fruit (playing scummily) Ircher, is good enough that they wont have fsked up and listed both buddies as bare town reads. And yeah its convincing but as stated, I believe its bad idea too put to much stock in any one piece of evidence, as players do fsck up as all alignments.
(So no I disagree with what I understand Pk position to be, that heat is now *certainly* town, and certainly not on the basis of one fact.
Anyway, Heats reasons for being on my wagon still dont feel like scum ones.

A bit that is relevant

This question is bit obvious? self evident.

Axle: why, in your opinion, does a UTL scumflip cause you to townread me?

but hey you asked

because apart from the belief that scum bad enough to flip off PK as they did (

Spoiler:

and if heat is scum it was off PK onto ALSO low hanging fruit (playing scummily) Ircher

, is good enough that they wont have *fsked up* and listed both buddies as bare town reads. And yeah it is convincing but as stated (even raw noobs tend not to do that), I believe it is a bad idea too put to much stock in any one piece of evidence, as players do *fsck up* as all alignments.
(So no I disagree with what I understand Pk position to be, that heat is now *certainly* town, and certainly not on the basis of one fact.

Reason in mafia 101 speak?
Rask read, UTL and heat as bare town reads.
Scum have not insignificant tendency to do that to one and only one of their buddies not both.
Scum as general simple rule don't cluster their buddies, when voting wagons, when giving reads, ... dont cluster.

Spoiler: weak scum

Eg #1 Scum not clustering their scum reads.
Give "similar" strength Scum read to a group, merely name your buddy,

but

give substantive sheepable reason for the town in the group.
Eg #2 Scum not clustering their town reads. (relevant here: AKA this example is like what happened in this game)
Weak scum: bare town read your buddy and some real towny. (oops/the weak bit) When challenged actually explain your buddies praiseworthy posts. (AKA what happened)

Stuff that didn't happen, but might next time.
Weakest scum: bare town read your buddy and some real towny. (oops/the weak bit) When challenged actually explain the real towny because duh, they are town. Continue to ignore your buddy, (what would have happened if Heat had been scum)

Weird weakest scum: bare town read Both your buddies... (wtf! why did you forget which game you were posting in and who your buddies were?) (Shit happens)(really... it does)
When challenged... explain one read on one buddy but not the other. That would be compelling, but int he WTF world where it happens, Rask would have had trouble defending heat because he didn't have any reason for the read.

Proof that Shit happens... Ircher as any alignment made these posts 2134 2193

Id also have to go dig, but i am pretty very sure, that read was before the GR flip.
I had some thought i might die after the GR flip but before yours. I will also have believed I had possible preflip associatives with you and GR.
I also had a different interpretation of anti preflip associatives with GR, but i needed to see the GR lynch play out more, before I decided if that a was a scum GR laying false trail or covering a fsck up.
Turned out it was town GR. <blush>

So yeah parts of my read on you have gone away.

As stated before, I fully expected town to ignore the fuck out of me if UTL flipped town before you but after I was dead. The statement was the best statement i could make to have the effect on the game I thought best, if I was dead at the time.
It did allow for multiple possible (at that time futures) AKA UTL has flipped scum before you or not.

Another interesting place for you to ask questions... would be about the certainty i expressed about UTL flipping town, during my tiff with RC after boon had hammered.

or you could look at that and think well if he thought UTL was that likely town and the read from the Rask post was either or {UTL/Heat} then obviously he was damn sure Heat was scum.
Be aware that during the tiff with RC I probably over egged my confidence in the UTL town flip.

I can probably work out and explain why (doing so was an instinct/intuition choice not of alignment, but of how i wanted the social interaction to go),
I think it was that if
town UTL had just got flipped and i died, there was till lots of room to fsk up the game, so I needed clear unequivocal statements from me in the game.
scum UTL got flipped, and I died then i would just get ignored or at least taken in a new context.

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

oops

.

As stated before, I fully expected town to ignore the fuck out of me if UTL flipped

town

scum

before you but after I was dead.

[AxleGreaser]

VOTE: Ircher

I know everybody can count but that is

L-1 on Ircher

[AxleGreaser]

How good is Irchers current read on massive if he(Ircher) is town?
Not very.

There was never any danger of me hammering Axle, so I can't imagine why Ircher even brought it up.

(which refers i believe to this.)

I request that Massive does not hammer beforehand.

Ircher Self assessment

I'm not suddenly against no lynch, PK said it is a bad idea.

Axle is hard to get a good grasp on, Massive

barely posts

, you I have a mild townread and PK I have a mild townread on, so my choice is Axle or Massive, pick your poison.

Which for me makes this an even more interesting and alignment indicative question

As town curious about both my and Massives alignment you would/should have wanted to waited for his input.

You have not addressed or explained why you were not interested in waiting for Massives input at all.
Please do so?

The observation/problem that he barely posts contraindicates, you as town not waiting for Massives input, but simply effectively deciding "Yep: less than 36hrs were good to go".