Open 20 - Pie E7 (Game over) - before 453

[Paradoxombie]

Vote: Ripley

for not voting

A scumtell older than the game itself

[Paradoxombie]

These attacks on Jordan are justified, but have have yet to convince anyone(I hope) that Jordan is a worthy day 1 lynch

On the other hand I'm finding Simenon's play extremely suspicious. You keep suggesting that you have reasons for your original vote against Jordan, and I don't buy that. And I definitely don't believe that you've actually somehow posted your reasons.

You're definitely looking alot worse than Jordan to me

Vote: Simenon

[Paradoxombie]

I feel the distraction would lie in what I say. As I have said, my former reasoning is completely irrelevant, and could be used by ze opportunistic scum. Since there is no scummy aspect about my previous thinking, I don't feel obliged to disclose it.

So you are admitting your original reason would be suspicious, but we should take your word for that we would actually be wrong in our suspicion?

That sounds like you're trying to think for the rest of the town. I don't like when people try to make up my mind for me.

And please stop saying it's irrelevent, I'm not arguing about Jordan at all.

[Paradoxombie]

No. Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that I had a reason that I don't feel like sharing, as it would only serve to be a distraction. It is irrelevant- there is no positive gain I can see by disclosing my reason. At all. Hell, for all you know, I may have even forgotten my original reasoning. That's how little impact it has on this game.

If it really is so irrelevent then I don't see why you won't just say it, unless it's suspect. Hence I assume it is suspicious. So you're denying that. Fine then.

So really, why would this insignificant little original reason that you claim has no bearing on the game be so dangerous to reveal? To the point where you believe it would be worse to reveal than to continue with this distraction it has become from your refusal to comply?

We have to trust your word for it that you made a mistake and I don't trust you particularly.

Yes, I think we all agree that taking someone's word in this game seems like a bad idea

/irony

[Paradoxombie]

Paradoxombie, what do you think of Jordan so far?

I can't say, He's given off a few scumtells, but it seems that most of the pressure on him has decreased and I haven't reached any conclusions yet.

Also, explain what benefit you think Simenon is getting from refusing to reveal his original reason if he's scum. You must think he's the most likely scum because you're voting him.

I don't see what significance his motive has, he says a piece of information is meaningless and not suspicious and yet refuses to tell us for what seems like no reason.

FOS: Patrick and Ripley

Neither of you haven't mentioned any flaws in my reasoning, so i don't understand what difference it makes.

Somthing doesn't make sense about Simenon and you just want to drop it? What possible reason could you have to want that? You think it's distracting? How about you convince Simenon to just come clean and explain himself? Wouldn't that be a more

protown

resolution than me just stopping, regardless of the significance of the issue?

[Paradoxombie]

What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum. Saying that motive is irrelevant is just bizarre.

Motive is irrelevant in my vote; it's not like I expect everyone else and jump and lynch him immediately. But you seem to implicitly admit that what Simenon is doing is suspicious, so I think doing somthing suspicious without any explanation is a good enough reason to suspect someone.

It looks more like you're searching for reasons to have your vote on him rather than trying to discern his alignment.

True enough, if someone wanted to FOS me that would be reasonable, but I guess you're all already doing this in your heads. Note, though, that it is the "looks" part that I'm agreeing with.

[Paradoxombie]

And Paradoxombie is just baffling me. What have Patrick or Ripley done to deserve any real suspicion at this stage. I agree with Patrick here - you voted against Simenon without any real reasoning.

So you don't find Simenon suspicious?

[Paradoxombie]

Well Ripley, I don't think I'm taking any of this too far, I challenge anyone to argue that what Simenon is doing is anything but anti-town. And yet you all seem to be happy just letting him play that way.

Well screw that.

I see someone playing anti-town, I vote them. Perfectly reasonable.
And yet you all jump on me like I have no right to do that; wtf?

If none of you want to vote Simenon for playing anti-town, well then be my guest, but please don't tell me that none of my actions are justified, at least not without some decent objective logic.

So until Simenon either admits his original tell, admits he's being an asshole on purpose, or a better lead comes up, my vote on him stands.

[Paradoxombie]

ah, sorry, wrote my post before reading your last one, obviously, Simenon

unvote

[Paradoxombie]

cool.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I honestly do find Ripley's lack of voting suspicious, I mean we're not gonna get anywhere without voting.

And I don't like how it always puts him in position to hammer when someone puts a lynch -1 without having to explain a change of mind.

Aimee is equally guilty but at least she just hasn't been around;
Teffc is probably somwhere inbetween the Aimee and Ripley, in terms of posting/voting ratio

[Paradoxombie]

well I'm hesitant to go after Aimee since she was away, but if she was straight out lurking I would find that more suspicious than you.

[Paradoxombie]

You still haven't answered

my

question, so let me rephrase it:

Do you think Simenon was playing in a pro-town way by hiding information on his own play? But, hold on, let me answer with a quote of yours.

Simenon, I am at a loss to see why hiding information is at all beneficial to the town (with the exception of some cases, e.g. cops and their resultsetc.)

So you think it's supicious that I'm voting a player you admit is playing anti-town? That goes for Patrick and Ripley as well.

Additionally you think I should be giving more input on the Jordan situation?:

I can't say, He's given off a few scumtells, but it seems that most of the pressure on him has decreased and I haven't reached any conclusions yet.

Jordan, there hasn't been a night-phase yet. Ergo, Simenon cannot have any results, even if he was a cop.

Jordan, are you saying your mistake is that you forgot that this game started in day?

So here's one more from me: I think you guys are making a bigger deal of Jordan than you have to, dwelling on one issue isn't doing anything but slowing down the game. No one has anything new to add about the situation. Maybe Jordan is scum, maybe not. Sitting on this one thing is about as bad as not posting.

There now we both have 2 quotes on the Jordan "situation."
I honestly think mine are somewhat more helpful since
1. they give analysis
and likewise
2. Give people something so they can decide if I'm scum or not

but that's just me

[Paradoxombie]

I don't remember saying at any point that I though Simenon was behaving in an anti town way. Annoying perhaps, but not necessarily anti town. And holding back on stuff can be useful sometimes.

If being annoying is hindering the game, that = antitown, imo

What disturbs me is that you've voted Simenon without really explaining why you think he's scum.

I agree with Patrick here - you voted against Simenon without any real reasoning.

How ironic, I vote someone for claiming they have reasoning but refusing to reveal it, and you jump at me for not having reasoning.

Double standards = bad

[Paradoxombie]

I HAD REASONING! Simenon only claimed to have reasoning.

why didn't you go after Simenon?

[Paradoxombie]

Even if you really believe that it still doesn't answer my question.

[Paradoxombie]

So when I say that I went after Simenon for playing in a way I considered anti-town, is that acceptable to you, even if you don't agree that simenon was being antitown?

[Paradoxombie]

Well, please let me clear up my FOS of Ripley and Patrick, I didn't do it because they disagreed with me, it was because it seemed to me when I posted it that they were just disregarding my logic. Since then it seems more like they just disagree with whether or not Simenon was just annoying or anti-town(I really consider them the same in most cases) Hence my last question to Patrick(which he hasn't answered)

It's subjective whether or not Simeonon was anti-town, but I feel all of my actions were justified since then considering

I

see it as anti-town. It seemed like you two were criticizing my logic(which seems pretty airtight to me) with little explanation. That would be FOS worthy in my opinion. If I had the wrong idea(that is, you actually just disagree with the basis of my logic and not the logic itself) then consider it anulled.

I hope that is understandable

Paradox

: Oddly focuses on Sim's lack of reasoning even after I've finished with it and buried the hatchet.

You were only peripherally involved in that, it really has little to do with you.
But either way, it's pretty screwed up to suggest I should ignore somthing just because it is an aspect of a situation that is already concluded.

I also thought this was weird

How ironic, I vote someone for claiming they have reasoning but refusing to reveal it, and you jump at me for not having reasoning.

Double standards = bad

I don't know what you mean. Did you not understand it, or just find it flawed?

waiting to hear from Teffc.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't understand how you can ethically vote me for voting someone you FOS'd for the exact same reason. I didn't even think he was scummy! I just wanted to pressure him into telling me, which he did.

You admitted that you wanted to know, too. And agreed that Simenon made it abundantly clear that he wasn't hiding it for any good reason. How can you vote me for taking action to make it happen?

[Paradoxombie]

Oh, that's directed at IH to clarify

[Paradoxombie]

Didn't you say earlier that you were "extremely suspicious" of Simenon and said his action was anti-town. How can you therefore say you didn't find that scummy?

His refusing to tell us was definitely antitown, imo. But now that we're farther into the game and everyone's giving more tells it's not relatively as big of a deal in terms of suspicion as to being scummy. I'll be watching out, but isolated incidents rarely prove anything in this game and nothing new has come up about Sim.

Same goes for Jordan.

[Paradoxombie]

You're not making much sense here, I'm trying to understand a player and that is distracting from the game? I mean I've been here about a year less than you but I'm pretty sure trying to figure people out is at least 90% of pro-town play.

NOW CHECK THIS SHIT!:

IF I am scum
THEN you realized I was because of discussion on a topic which you consider distracting
THEREFORE discussion is helpful to the town even if it's "distracting" or "irrelevant"
AND SO My play has directly helped the town
and
SINCE your proof that I am scum is that I am not helping the town
THEN Your proof cannot prove I am scum logically. Whether I really am or not(NOT!), the logic you use to prove it is invalid.

I cannot be both scum and unhelpful to the town in this situation, as you suggest.

argue or unvote, please.(or come up with better reasoning)

I <3 logic

[Paradoxombie]

You keep saying "ignored"; that's misleading. I'm sorry I didn't point out every two comments that I agreed with somthing someone else posted(basically what you did all at once) but I don't feel the need to post on every matter unless I have somthing new to add or a differing opinion or if I'm going to vote based on it.

maybe 1 and 2 apply in a RL game, but seriously, people can do whatever they want on here. In the majority of the games Im in people post on several convos at once. Sure it gets confusing but it's not like were limited in time, people can always get their questions answered eventually.

And seriously how can you so easily make the town the victim? I wanted one little piece of info and simenon had to make a big deal about it. I make a big deal about it in return, but I didn't "force" the town to take a side in it. I didn't "force" them to do anything. Nothing else was going on. If I was really so terrible, I'd like everyone who was here to point out wtf they were going to do that was so important that I "forced" them to forget about.

You read the topic, IH, we can follow any leads we want from then, but you haven't come up with any. If I hadn't posted confronting Simenon, you wouldn't have any leads at all as far as I can tell. You have nothing to bring up from before I "forced" the town to change focus. If you came in here and had some good leads maybe you'd have a better argument. Or maybe if as soon as I unvoted Simenon people had a plethora of leads that they had been "forced" to ignore. But nobody does. Give the rest of the town some responsibility, they're not ADD-afflicted 4 year olds.

And seriously #3 I just don't get. If there was somthing I said that was fallacious and someone gave me a good logical reason, I have no motive not to become convinced. Examples would be nice.

anyway,

FOS:

Jordan some of the recent stupid things you've said seem forced(no offense if they're honest mistakes)
Like you realized all your mistakes could be blamed on newbiness and went out of your way to seem like one. I mean, you've only been here 7 days less than me. Though obviously there are other possible explanations.

[Paradoxombie]

This is a straight out lie. Jordan was a good one, so was Aimee and her uncomittalness . People already had leads.

Yeah right. If they're so great I don't see why you aren't pursuing them now at all. Pretend I'd never posted the simenon thing for a second and play from there. Do all those things I distracted people from doing! Prove that there's somthing we missed because of me! Prove that we had somewhere better to go from before I "derailed" the town's progress.

My main concern is, did you really think Simenon was scum for it? That it was a matter of alignment? Obviously not, as you unvoted, and your only response was "cool".

In my opinion there was potential. Besides there's always somthing to learn when the town's talking. You "proved" I was scum from that discussion. You can't argue with that. You can't say that irrelevant discussion is unhelpful or pointless AND that I'm scum. (It's deja vu)

To simplify my understanding:
Your proof that I am scum is that by creating a situation which lead you directly to the scum, I purposely prevented the town from finding scum.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I wouldn't normally feel the urge to post such small details until I'm ready to actually go after someone, but apparently some people have a problem with that kind of playing.

[Paradoxombie]

Well please IH, I'd like to see something.

I'd like you to post what you think my train of thought is as I purposely go out of my way to distract the town. Post exactly my intentions and motivations and how I decided to go about each confrontation as I post throughout those times.

Then do the same thing again but assume that I really am town and all of the reasons I gave are true. Post the motivations I gave and thoughts I already gave along with them

I you can do both logically and unbiased, then the second explanation/story must look much more ridiculous and unlikely than the first, right? The second story must be veryconflicting and nonsensical, right? Since you aren't doing much anything at the moment but arguing with me, you don't seem to have better things to do. So why not? It'll prove your convictions, and maybe prove your points.

Actually it might be better If someone who I know would be less blatantly biased did it, maybe Ripley or Simenon.

Whoever does it I'd appreciate it.
Since we don't have a deadline it doesn't seem like much to ask, no?

[Paradoxombie]

Para, who was post 221 directed at?

Simenon.

What he says about us making a big deal of the Jordan issue here is pretty much exactly what I think about him and his own pet issue.

Where he does make an attempt to talk about something else, say Post 160, it comes across as a sop to keep the rest of us happy until he can find a way to divert back to his preferred topic.

This is not true at all. I didn't intend to make a big deal about asking Simenon it just became necessary to get the info I wanted, and with little else going on, I didn't mind at all.
Then, you and patrick felt the need to argue with me about it(or maybe more like you and patrick felt the need to post your opinion and I simply refuted with you)
Then, Aimee finds me suspicious so I felt the need to defend myself(obviously by arguing over the situation again)
Then, IH comes in and basically the same thing again.
I've NEVER tried to bring up anything about Simenon to anyone else except in response to another's post about it.

I have no opinion of the situation with Simenon at all, okay? I think in the end we gained nothing conclusive and I've never tried to convince anyone otherwise. All that I am trying to do is defend myself by justifying my own logic and motivations, and perhaps argue with the logic of the suspicions, nothing more. I haven't pushed any sort of idea at all about that, so what in the world would be the point of purposely bring up the situation again and again?

I'd happily move on if suspicion of me over this ended.

See, my argument and your argument is possible. Me posting my thoughts about your motives, which has already been done and would be pointless, and comparing them to yours, which has pretty much been this whole argument, is either going to make me continue my argument, or go round and round in circles, doubting things for no reason.

I am not trying a WIFOM argument, perhaps you misunderstand. There are two possibilities at the moment, one where I'm scum and one where I'm town. I would like you to prove that the one where I'm scum is actually more likely(more deserving of belief), not that there's

no

possibility I'm town. You said it yourself, the possibility that I am town is an "off chance"; the only way to prove that is that me being scum is more likely/more reasonable.

I mean, we already each look at the game and decide for ourselves normally, I just want you to prove you can really logically think that way, that your opinion is justified.
I

am

asking you to continue your argument, is there some reason you have a problem with that? If doing this gives you doubts, then there's somthing wrong with the argument in the first place, because all I'm asking you to do is post your own reasoning in an alternate fashion. Doing this doesn't favor me in any way, it's just doing what you already did in your head, but out in the open for all to see.

And I take back what I said about you being biased. I miscommunicated what I meant.

[Paradoxombie]

Well with a deadline, I don't feel the urge to argue anymore, unless two more step up to vote me(please point it out in advance, obviously)

For now I think I'll reread everything and see what I can find.

also:

Re-reading has made my view stronger and clearer.

Yeah it always does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I guess it's just a coincidence that you found nothing at all in the entire game to make you doubt your position one tiny bit, or vindicate my arguments in the slightest.

[Paradoxombie]

Mod, with IH's absence in mind I hope you will move the deadline.

[Paradoxombie]

I'd vote Jordan if it came to that. I don't really have anything else to say.

[Paradoxombie]

An "brief" extension would be appreciated, maybe 1 or 2 days, especially considering our last day is a holiday.

Anyway, I said I'd vote jordan, but with no counterclaim, that's not gonna happen. I don't even consider him that suspicious without the claim. My largest suspects at the moment are Aimee and IH. If jordan really is town, it's suitable they should avoid going after him and lock in on me. I don't like how they've gone after me for "ignoring" Jordan and never followed any sort of investigation in that direction themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if only one of them was scum, I wouldn't normally know which to go after, but since Jordan is going with IH I might as well follow. Also, active lurking is a no-no.

Vote: IH

[Paradoxombie]

Are you saying you think that IH and Aimee are suspicious for not going after Jordan, who was protown? I don't understand this.

They made a big deal about how significant his scum tells were to attack me, but took little action against him themselves. If he is protown this would make sense because they'd want to avoid going after a protown player that directly, because it makes them prime suspects when he turns up town. Inversely, this makes me less suspicious of those who were much more aggresive against Jordan, at the time of the tells and up to his claim.

You could also reasonably draw the opposite conclusions, but in my expirience that situation is less likely.

[Paradoxombie]

If he is protown this would make sense because they'd want to avoid going after a protown player that directly, because it makes them prime suspects when he turns up town.

Sorry, I'm still baffled. You say that they would want to avoid going after a protown player that directly. But they went after you that directly. Would that not make them prime suspects when you turn up town?

Ah, you're right. I suppose it doesn't prove anything. I just don't like how they think I'm

more

scummy than Jordan because I didn't aggresivly attack Jordan for scumminess.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox, I made a big case against you a few pages back. You didn't defend yourself against any of it. I am still happy with all the reasons that I stated in it, and am happy with my vote.

I doubt anything I would say will change your mind because I've already argued for several pages with no results on that front. If I thought arguing would change anyone else's minds, I would, but since I've already done it so much I think it'd be redundant.

Would one of Paradox or Jordan please give a case against IH? I haven't actually seen one, and it seems it was partially constructed because of his lurking.

I gave my reasons

[Paradoxombie]

Otherwise known as, I've dug myself into too deep a hole to get out of.

Do you really think further arguing would be productive a this point? Obviously not, because this is a terrible excuse for an argument against me. I don't have to be scum to admit I'm probably screwed.