Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[ac1983fan]

Hey guys, I'm here; my house is hosting a foreign exchange student who is graduating this weekend so between that and work and other things I've been a bit busy; I probably should have posted about my L/A but I didn't know that I would have L/A until I was in the middle of it. Sorry! An actual game related post incoming by Monday.

[ac1983fan]

The possibility that mafia waited with confirming to gain more time for pregame discussion makes Mafuyu slightly more likely to be scum then the other players in the game at this point in time.

Vote Mafuyu

I'm down

VOTE: Mafuyu

This first vote is a stretch. The second vote is iffy. Why blindly follow someone using flimsy reasoning in the RVS?

If everyone wouldn't mind answering:
What game do you feel to be your best somewhat recent performance as Town?
What game do you feel to be your worst somewhat recent performance as Town?
Same questions for scum.

I would answer these, 'cept I haven't had a completed game in years.

Those two games as scum were literally my last two games on site. It would be pretty amusing if me and Pine were scum together yet again, but three times in a row would strain beief, and I would have to ask the mod if roles were actually randomly assigned.

To be fair, it's not like the previous two games have any influence on this one. It could have randomly happened again.

Ah, the beauty of chance, and the fallacies in our human attempts to rationalize it.

I'm really not liking nhammens questions. First of all, there is a large number of players who haven't played in a while. That makes his request for somewhat recent games rather worthless. Secondly, because mafia can choose which of their games they'll list, the meta read he'll get from the answers is open to manipulation. Thirdly, everyone who answers the question is likely to do so in the same way, so the answers to the questions are unlikely to give direct information regarding who's scum in this game. Fourthly, answering the question thoroughly takes a LOT of time, time that can't be spent on scumhunting. His questions therefore actively encourage other players to divert energy away from scumhunting. Finally, the questions allow him to look like he's participating when he's not actually doing anything.

Unvote

Vote nhammen

This is a major stretch. I'd presume nhammen starts off most games with similar questions in most games. Getting people to evaluate their own play and to post their results can help the game (for players who choose to use meta that is).

Vote: pieceofpecanpie

The Devil's dessert.

Scum for not joining either wagon.

Unvote; Vote: brundibar

If you wanted to generate discussion, a wagon vote is a better way of doing it.

He voted third. There were no wagons.

Jee you are obviously confused. I did not vote him because he random voted someone based on their name. I voted him because he tried to look pro-town by claiming that his actions got discussion going. Town wants to get discussion going. Scum wants to look pro-town. By claiming he was trying to get discussion going, he's trying to look pro-town.

Get it now?

So whats your reasoning for the vote on me now?

I still don't understand how my vote is more suspicious than the two before me. I said that RVS gets discussion going because from my experience that's what it does. I don't see why you're still beating a dead horse.

Yeah, ICE, you misinterpreted what he was saying. He was answering a question posed to him. And how can you say that his vote was any less protown than any other random vote?

In addition to that,

Unvote

VOTE: ICEninja

Because you can't seem to focus on anything else

On the other hand, OMGUS is never good.

Think, Ice. I'm neither dense enough nor noobish enough to make such a scum blunder as voting without a good reason. Ergo, I have a reason, and will explain it in my own time.

You're neither dense nor noobish enough to make a scum blunder? But in order to make a scum blunder, wouldn't that necessitate you being scum prior to being dense or noobish?

----
With all that, I don't like the wagon against brundi at all. There's no logic to it. Which is why I'm glad it stopped. I don't think ICE is scummy for starting it however, as ICE said it was only a "semi-serious" vote, which I understand.
I don't like Pine's recent "reaction test." It seems fishy and half-baked. I also think the post in which I quoted him could be a scumslip - or it could just be not overemphasizing townieness. Either way, it does make a good point about brundi's OMGUS-hopping.

I also don't like the fact that AurorusVox has contributed nothing to the game except questioning and voting a player for an RVS vote, and ignoring all other discussion.

Sorry again about not posting until now! Surprise limited access kicked me in the butt, LOL.

[ac1983fan]

Think whatever you like about the reaction test, but your response is too quick to really have independently verified it. Go read 1080 in light of what I said.

As a general rule, I don't use meta; it just seemed to me like the reaction test was a little bit... put on? Fake? I'm not sure what the word for it is.
I also think that this:

[quote="In

First of all, 1080 was over a year ago. I don't think you can predict my playing style from my first and only game on-site. If you had a larger sample size and I had more games online, this might be a useful test.

And this:

pine, if you're going to do meta research, please do it well.

The reaction of brundibar to your vote is not interesting, and definately not indicative of scum.
A reaction that would have been interesting to see was jee's, but that opportunity is gone now.

Pretty much invalidates any information you might get from said reaction test.

This is a major stretch. I'd presume nhammen starts off most games with similar questions in most games. Getting people to evaluate their own play and to post their results can help the game (for players who choose to use meta that is).

Actually, I was trying something new. It turns out that it didn't work out as I expected it to, and Michel had some very good arguments for why it was not a good play, so I probably wont use this specific technique again.

Regardless, I don't see how it could be viewed as scummy or anti-town. I've seen other players ask similar questions.

I also don't like the fact that AurorusVox has contributed nothing to the game except questioning and voting a player for an RVS vote, and ignoring all other discussion.

It is true that too much of AV's content seems to be focused on one player. However I have seen this type of argument before, and can understand his play coming from a town perspective. Different players have different points of view regarding what constitutes enough content and information to place a real vote rather than a random vote.

Whether or not it's scummy, it is anti-town to ignore anything but a single player, unless you are extremely confident that they are scum - in which case you should be advocating for his or her lynch furiously.

Pine, you think yourself far too clever.

QFT

This first vote is a stretch. The second vote is iffy. Why blindly follow someone using flimsy reasoning in the RVS?

Because its RVS

...Yeah I should have thought of that when I asked the question? Heh, weird stuff happens when you start composing a post, go to sleep, then finish it I guess.

He voted third. There were no wagons.

The point is he could have started one.
But less of a tell with him only completing one game.

Why haven't YOU placed a vote?
If you "don't like" Pine's rxntest or my posting, why aren't you voting us? Or is it because don't like =/= scum?

Your post - the ending at least, I skimmed the rest - is pure wishwash. "It could be a scumslip, or maybe not" - come on, are you even trying to figure it out? Oh, but it makes a good point re: brundi. So maybe you do like the rxn test after all?

I don't see how wagoning during the RVS is a town-tell, nor do I see how not wagoning during the RVS is anti-town.

I haven't placed a vote because the deadline is two and a half weeks away; I have no desire to end the day early nor have I decided who I believe should be lynched.

I'm saying that while it COULD be a scumslip, it could also be that the Pine doesn't feel the need to overstate his towniness. But regardless, the reaction test has been invalidated by some evidence from Michel and an argument from brundi (IMHO) so.

And pecan, I just wanted him to respond, not to actually make a full-fledged pressure wagon. Also, [AV] seems to be responding despite V/LA, so I'll keep asking him questions.

Which is odd, considering he's posted more while V/LA than he did when he wasn't.

Most notably, I looked deeper at pecan and found some weird stuff in there. For example, it was noted that he made an RVS vote after serious discussion had began.

No... He made an RVS vote as the third post in the game.

I really dislike the resistance to Brundibar. It feels like the counter-push was engineered, and that suggests that there might be a scumteam or individual player that's playing pretty heavy-handed.

Thinking it might be nhammen. He's twice now jumped onto the path of least resistance. First with jee, who seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion, and then onto me in the middle of it. That seems very much like the tactics I've seen him use when we were scum together.

Unvote
Vote: nhammen

This is just... yeah.
This is like when people talk about the "gay agenda," or the "vast right-wing conspiracy." You're sticking to an argument which has been shown to not be very good, and are accusing those against it of being scum?

[ac1983fan]

Messed up the quote tags. Corrected version:

First of all, 1080 was over a year ago. I don't think you can predict my playing style from my first and only game on-site. If you had a larger sample size and I had more games online, this might be a useful test.

And this:

pine, if you're going to do meta research, please do it well.

The reaction of brundibar to your vote is not interesting, and definately not indicative of scum.
A reaction that would have been interesting to see was jee's, but that opportunity is gone now.

Pretty much invalidates any information you might get from said reaction test.

[ac1983fan]

In post 119, ICEninja wrote:
Most notably, I looked deeper at pecan and found some weird stuff in there. For example, it was noted that he made an RVS vote after serious discussion had began.


No... He made an RVS vote as the third post in the game.

I believe that was referring to this:

Also, VOTE: quidagismedice because I have no idea how to read that name or pronounce it.

Ah, you know what? I got my people confused.

[ac1983fan]

I'm so sorry I'm falling behind in this game... tomorrow I'll give some serious reads on everyone. Really sorry about the lack of content; work and family stuff has been

[ac1983fan]

Alright, I'm really at a loss for words. I don't have time to do a detailed analysis of all the players in the game right now, but I owe this game one.
However, I will

vote:pine

for the time being, because
1) I think his "I wouldn't make a scum blunder" is scumslippy
2) His reaction test seems like a half-baked attempt to appear town rather than actually be town
3) Every post on page 7 just screams scum. He basically says a) it's the fault of other players being inactive for his own activity, b) that he's not answering questions directly asked to him because that would distract from his scumhunting (what scumhunting??) and c) for everyone voting/questioning him to "fuck off." Like really? Regardless of if that's a scumtell (which I think it is, why would a town player tell other players to "fuck off") it's immature.
4) After his claim he went from being at L-1 to L-4.
5) Deadline is less than a week away and I seem to have made an error in calculating the deadline time in my earlier post.

I don't see why getting a cc or not should matter. This is a closed setup, we don't know if there is 0, 1, or 2 trackers, and the claim doesn't invalidate the scummy behavior at all.

I'm left wondering if SV is actually a doublevoter, or he pulled a gambit to get pine to claim. If it's the latter, then I don't believe that's very pro-town.

I also don't like Ald's vote of Michel and then unvoting based on his "defense". Not only do I not understand what Ald's reasoning for the vote is (in fact I don't really see it) I don't really see Michel "defending" himself. Nor do I see what's wrong with the word "scumpotential." Like no, things are not black and white. Things can be scummy in one context but not scummy in another, and things can be potentially scummy.

[ac1983fan]

The chances of there being two trackers are very unlikely in a game this small. I would rather lynch a CC'd tracker even with the possibility of there being two trackers.

We don't know the chances of there being one, two, or zero trackers, do we? We don't know how the mod designed the game. Could we not have two trackers as our only protown power roles? I believe we could.
In fact, if there is a(nother) tracker, he or she should not claim, in my opinion.
1) If pine is scum, this outs a pro-town power role who will die in the night.
2) If pine is a tracker, then this outs two pro-town power roles, one who would be lynched and the other would be nightkilled.
I would argue, that even if someone IS a tracker and thinks pine is not, they should consider the above before counterclaiming.

[ac1983fan]

I've never encountered a double voter before. I really dislike the fact that we have 2 power roles claimed during day 1.

He could be a scum double voter (how common are those? It would be considered "normal" according to the wiki).

[ac1983fan]

While I understand the want of players to not lynch a claimed power role (although I personally have no problem with it - if you're scummy, then a claim doesn't make you not scummy anymore), I don't think arugula is a good alternative. I don't see much, if any in the way of scumtells in Arugula's. What I largely see is newbish behavior. And I also think post#260 is more likely to be made by newb!town than scum. I still say Pine is the best lynch today, however if people want an alternative, I think they should look elsewhere than Arugula.

[ac1983fan]

AV's reaction and accusations against ICE sound more like those of a paranoid madman. ICE made a point that if Alu flips town, then the players on Alu's wagon should be analyzed appropriately. This is logical. ICE seemed to think inparticular that he could learn something about AV's alignment depending on Alu's flip. But AV completely overreacted, and started making huge, assumption-based conclusions.
I still, frankly, am in support of a Pine lynch. His behavior has not gotten anymore pro-town. And if we don't lynch him day 1, then lynching him later will invoke too much WIFOM (did he survive the night because he is scum? Or because he is scummy enough to deflect attention from the true scum?).
Alu is probably town. AV may be a good secondary lynch but I'm not really that confident about anyone except Pine.

[ac1983fan]

ICE is pretty confident he'll survive N1 btw guys.

AC, do you NOT support an ICE lynch?

I do not, I don't see him as scum.

[ac1983fan]

VOTE: Pine
Don't really even have to think about this, Pine is obviously the play for the day.

[ac1983fan]

I'll just apologize for having to be replaced and for wasting everybody's time for the portion of the game I was active in.