Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[Alduskkel]

What game do you feel to be your best somewhat recent performance as Town?
What game do you feel to be your worst somewhat recent performance as Town?
Same questions for scum.
Also, I am defining somewhat recent as recent enough that you still have a similar playstyle to the games.

Well, I've been on a hiatus so there is nothing particularly recent for me. I doubt my playstyle has changed much, but it could've. Anyway:
Best Town Game:Open 274. Okay I guess.
Worst Town Game:Open 253. Inactivity on my part, got replaced.
Best Scum Game:Open 236. Decent play. Not my best overall, but oh well.
Worst Scum Game: Mini 1180. Absolute disaster of a game. Town took down me and my teammates with 3 solid lynches -- no errors.

My overall opinion is that my recent games are really nothing spectacular one way or another. I don't even remember them too well. They were played when I was short on free time and losing interest in Mafia -- so my play suffered. I got replaced in a bunch of games and then went on hiatus. Right now I'm trying to rekindle my interest in the game, and be a strong pro-Town player. If I start lurking, feel free to slap me across the face.

Anyway, I do have a wiki entry, but it currently does not include games I replaced out of because when I first made the call on whether or not to include them I chose not to. I regret that decision now, but I'm too lazy to root around for them currently. If you're dying to find them, just search my posts and look for a game not mentioned in my wiki.
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Those two games as scum were literally my last two games on site. It would be pretty amusing if me and Pine were scum together yet again, but three times in a row would strain beief, and I would have to ask the mod if roles were actually randomly assigned.

To be fair, it's not like the previous two games have any influence on this one. It could have randomly happened again.

I will VOTE: Pine. I think you should answer the questions nhammen posed. If you're getting this lazy already, what's to stop you from getting lazy later?

[Alduskkel]

....
Nothing to really say but "sorry."
Will post soon.

[Alduskkel]

I feel like it is going to be very easy to just write Michel off as town, as his posting does indeed seem quite pro-town. However, I will keep a close eye on his motivations and look past the well reasoned and thoughtful posting, as he is likely to post in such a way regardless of alignment.

Michel, what do you think of this comment?

[To AurorusVox]I'm keeping the vote where it is for now, or do you want it on yourself?

I really don't like how PoPP is essentially threatening AurorusVox with a vote, when AV is also a player who has been attacking him. It reads to me as, "Stop attacking me, or I'll vote you." i.e. scum trying to deflect votes away from himself.

Pine is, as always, scum.

Vote: Pine

I'm very skeptical of this post. Since SV seems to have previous experience with Pine, and also since Pine seems to be the kind of player to attract attention, parking a (reasonless) vote on him is quite convenient. But with no other posts yet from SV it's hard to judge. For now I'd call it scummy.

[To quidagismedice]Your non-random vote has landed on a player I'm getting a mild townread on, pine. Not liking your vote, not liking your lack of content throughout these first 3 pages. There's scumpotential there.

@SV: I like the way your thoughts are going. What's your opinion on Alduskel pressuring pine for not answering nhammen's question?

Three problems: Having disagreements about who's scummy does not make the other person scummy. Also not liking the use of "scumpotential." It's either scummy or it's not. Michel hanging out on the fence here (gauging reactions to quidasgismedice) is scummy.

Finally, Michel's use of the word "like" is very vague. He doesn't say

why

he does not like quid's post, and he doesn't say why he likes SV's post. (I know he explains the latter later, see below.)

I like the way his thoughts are going. Both his suspicion on nhammen and his vote on pine, though they lack reasoning, are sitting on players I have scumreads on as well.

Again, people agreeing with you does not in and of itself make them more likely to be town.
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Side note, while I'm not entirely sure that nhammen's questions were particularly useful, I also don't think they were scummy. Personally, I did not take large amounts of time to answer his questions. Maybe I'm biased because, as someone who maintains a reasonably up-to-date wiki entry, I don't have to search around for my games. Still, I think the questions were an honest attempt to boost discussion. And let's be honest here: almost anything that isn't 100% standard in the RVS will generate discussion.
---
I'm skeptical of jee's vote on ICEninja -- defensiveness is more of a personality trait I think. But, this is just disagreement on theory here.
---
With regards to Pine's reaction test: Terrible. Firstly, votes without reasons

always

get attention, criticism, and/or votes on the voter. Secondly, the results of the test are really not useful. brundibar's Post 85 sums it up. Trying to nail down an unestablished player based on his meta just doesn't work. OTOH, I don't see how Pine's test is scummy. It seems more stupid than anything else.

If I start lurking, feel free to slap me across the face.

Don't mind if I do.

VOTE: Alduskkel

OK, I deserve this.

Aldruskkels vote on pine looks very bad to me. Forcing a player to spent time away from scumhunting? This request can cause players to lose interest in the game. Scum coaching a partner or scum trying to cause town to lose interest both seem more likely then town trying to determine alignement.

On the other hand, I don't deserve this. Firstly, we were on page 1. Scumhunting on page 1 is not time consuming whatsoever. Secondly, I dispute the notion that I was actually causing Pine to spend oodles of time on something other than scumhunting. I'd like to point out that Pine himself says he spent like 2 minutes on the whole thing. Oh yes, the horror! 2 minutes that could have been spent nailing down every last scum in this game.

As for coaching... I don't think not answering the questions would lead to massive amounts of suspicion on Pine. Yes, I did vote for him, but no bandwagon ensued. That reminds me:

Unvote: Pine

Also, the whole coaching thing is based on me and Pine both being scum. Since neither of us have flipped scum, trying to draw connections at this point is largely futile. Not to mention I won't flip scum. I could see this point as being worth mentioning if Pine flipped scum, even if it would still be wrong.

Alduskkel - Scum - Voted Pine for essentially being lazy, when Alduskkel said "I'm too lazy to root around for them" when talking about his old games.

That's not the right context. I said I was too lazy to root around for games I replaced out of, which are not recorded on my wiki entry.

It is somewhat hypocritical of me, I would agree. But I didn't vote Pine because I thought his laziness was scummy. I voted him just to pressure him into answering the question -- and it worked.

[To me, with regards to Pine]From town, I would have expected more questioning of motives rather then direct instructions.

Pine's motives were plain and clear: he was too lazy. Nothing to question.

ICEninja's post 119 is good. I won't quote it, to reduce length.
quidagismedice's post 124 raises good points about ICEninja, but in terms of general behavior I would still say ICEninja reads town to me.

I haven't placed a vote because the deadline is two and a half weeks away; I have no desire to end the day early nor have I decided who I believe should be lynched.

Maybe you should start trying to decide then. I've seen little scumhunting from you so far.
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It is slightly more likely to come from scum. From brundi's past play, it was fairly likely that he would vote Pine, and Pine could have realized this and been using his "reaction test" intentionally. But it is only slightly more likely, because he does do gambits as Town, and there is little reason to go after brundi, other than him being easy to manipulate in this manner. In fact, if I had realized I would be putting him at L-2 when I made that vote, I might not have done it. Although, I feel strangely comfortable with the placement right now.

Care to elaborate? That last sentence has me going "???"

VOTE: MichelSableheart

FoS: pieceofpecanpie

Again, sorry for the lurking.

[Alduskkel]

What's strange about it? It was just a dumb page 1 vote.

Unvotes are mandatory I think.

[Alduskkel]

Alduskkel's overeager blitz is coming off as scum trying to prove themselves.

Why? I hadn't posted in a while -- there was a lot to comment on.

Michel's defense in post 146 is actually rather convincing. Though I'm still rather skeptical of the use of the word "scumpotential."

Unvote.

I will figure out where my vote is going to go sometime tomorrow. I have a test then (the ACT), so I'm just a bit busy at the moment.
There's a good chance that my vote will go on pieceofpecanpie, but I'm not 100% certain yet.

My apologies for confusing Pine with quidagismedice. Though, to be fair, it wasn't very clear.

I simply can't see a town motivation for your response. I don't see how pine answering nhammens question would help you scumhunt. I don't see why scum pine would be more likely to be lazy (as you call it), then town pine. Without a possible town motivation and with a possible scummotivation for your actions, I believe my suspicion of you is entirely justified.

I never said that scum Pine would be more lazy than town Pine. However, I do believe that laziness is anti-town. So the reason for my vote was to discourage Pine from behaving lazily.

What did I get from the questions? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. But at that point in the game you just want any information that might be relevant.

By the way, people who have played with Pine, would you say his behavior right now is typical?

[Alduskkel]

That quote messed up. Should've previewed.

I simply can't see a town motivation for your response. I don't see how pine answering nhammens question would help you scumhunt. I don't see why scum pine would be more likely to be lazy (as you call it), then town pine. Without a possible town motivation and with a possible scummotivation for your actions, I believe my suspicion of you is entirely justified.

I never said that scum Pine would be more lazy than town Pine. However, I do believe that laziness is anti-town. So the reason for my vote was to discourage Pine from behaving lazily.

What did I get from the questions? Unfortunately, not a whole lot. But at that point in the game you just want any information that might be relevant.

[Alduskkel]

I also don't like Ald's vote of Michel and then unvoting based on his "defense". Not only do I not understand what Ald's reasoning for the vote is (in fact I don't really see it) I don't really see Michel "defending" himself. Nor do I see what's wrong with the word "scumpotential." Like no, things are not black and white. Things can be scummy in one context but not scummy in another, and things can be potentially scummy.

The reasoning was that Michel was refusing to take a side on an issue to keep his options open.

Michel countered that by pointing out that he wasn't staying on the fence.

As for what's wrong with scumpotential, well, the phrase sounds like you're bothering to talk about something without saying if you think it's scummy or not, while also leaving the door open for later saying either "well, it was only scum

potential

, I didn't say it was actually scummy" or "that scumpotential is now scummy, vote:whoever"

Things can be scummy in one context but not scummy in another, and things can be potentially scummy.

True. But why post about it at all then? If you're not sure, and don't really have a good opinion about something, then often (not always -- one exception is if you want other players to help you) it is pointless to mention.

Honestly, I was kinda surprised when Ald asked you [Pine] to answer my questions. I was perfectly understanding of anybody that refused (which might be another reason I shouldn't have asked). And I don't see how this was a trap, considering that we aren't attacking anybody else about answering or not. In fact the reason Michel suspects you for this is that you only answered because you were worried about being pressed (when only one person had pressed you).

I have a bad gut feeling about this quote. Something about nhammen all of a sudden revealing that he was surprised by my actions. He didn't act that way at the time, IIRC.

You don't think any more discussion is needed? Your scumreads on me are that strong that you would be willing to lynch me to stop discussion? The more players talk, the more of a possibility there is for scum to slip. The only players that benefit from a quicker lynch are scum.

VOTE: MichelSableheart

Holy crap this is terrible. "Rawrg, I suddenly have a suspicion of MichelSableheart! Who is coincidentally attacking me!"
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SV confirmed for double voter.
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Will post more just a bit later. For now I have to go.

[Alduskkel]

You already voted for him. How can you hammer him? Unless you're a double voter too.

[Alduskkel]

Things can be scummy in one context but not scummy in another, and things can be potentially scummy.

True. But why post about it at all then? If you're not sure, and don't really have a good opinion about something, then often (not always -- one exception is if you want other players to help you) it is pointless to mention.

I would disagree with this. I think pointing out things is very important, although more scum hunting to back it up is nice. Many times you can just point out something because it seems fishy, and other people can piece it together (although this is your one exception you pointed out). I just feel like this one exception happens a lot more than you make it seem from the post.
@Ald, what makes the statement pointless to mention? Does the lack of opinion deter the need to point it out? Why?

If you think something is "fishy" then you definitely have an opinion on it.

I just think that if you have nothing to say about something but write about it anyway then you're just cluttering up the thread. This is actually anti-town, since people will have to read more, which generally decreases enthusiasm. The most extreme version of this would be posting gigantic walls where you don't actually make any firm points.

@Mod

: Deadline extension until quidagismedice replacement?

@AV: What exactly were you trying to pull?

I'm not sure about hammering Arugula. His reaction to L-1 seems town. Maybe he really just doesn't care about this game, but if I were scum and I were getting lynched Day 1 I would be pissed and trying hard to at least survive until Day 2.

[Alduskkel]

I wish we hadn't talked about how townish the double voter role is. I would have liked to have left that unsaid unless SV came under massive pressure for some reason.

[Alduskkel]

HAY GUISE I'M IN THIS GAME
Despite missing the entirety of Day 2. My apologies.

Vote: VisceraEyes

This is a pretty damn obvious vote. The Pine-ICEninja connection is really strong. I will iso Pine and ICEninja to be doubly sure. But I'm sure enough now to cast my vote as it is.

[Alduskkel]

Care to explain ASIDE from the alleged coaching? Let me point out that you're riding on points that other people have already made. Why don't you tell me why it seems scummy to you.

I like how the scum keep trying to load their votes onto me as their dying act. First Pine, now you.

[Alduskkel]

I said it would be WORTH MENTIONING if one of us flipped scum. Never did I say that if Pine flipped scum that I was sure to be scum too; that's just silly. I'm willing to discuss the matter. But you're just throwing it at me without explaining it yourself. I'm looking forward to that case.

Also, disappearing is never pro-town. If you are actually town, then you should defend yourself and push your suspect(s) hard. Making your case and disappearing isn't very convincing on either front.

Finally, that whole "scum record" thing is bullshit. That's basically saying that you're too scummy to be scum. I'm 5-2 as scum, but that doesn't really mean anything in terms of this game.

[Alduskkel]

So! Connections. I recommend following along via isos.

From Pine's posts we have post 401 vs. 446. According to 401, Pine thought Ice was town. But by 446 all of a sudden he thinks he's (by now VE) scum. Given that Pine was about to die, I think that this was his last ditch attempt to distance himself from ICE/VE. VE had by now similarly begun to distance himself, and I think Pine caught on.

ICEninja posted more, so this analysis is a bit more detailed. I will divide it into two parts: individual scum tells, and Pine connection scum tells.

Individual:
Firstly, in post 30 Ice declares himself "the easiest player to read on the site" because he's supposedly a bad scum player. That's straight-up manipulation of meta for his own benefit.
In post 40 Ice casts suspicion on Michel without much substance. Essentially, he wants to prevent solid town reads to develop -- keeps more mislynch options on the table. The main reason it is scummy is because it's so random and out of place.
In 232 Ice casually gets onto the Arugula wagon without contributing anything himself. This after he had just asked Michel if he would hammer Arugula (in 218), to which Michel said yes. That, in retrospect, looks definitively like scum fishing for support for a town wagon. Later, Ice sets up Aurorus for the next lynch. This makes up such a large portion of Ice's posts that I won't bother to reference every one of them, but if you want to start go to 270. Given that we now know that AV was town (and was very strongly in favor of a Pine-Ice scumteam) this is incredibly scummy. We can WIFOM waffle about how scum just want us to think that Ice would have done that, but let's not. The first, most straightforward aspect of WIFOM is just generally the most likely. Couple that with the fact that towns rarely attack people based off of the night kill (again, due to the WIFOM defense) I can see VE NKing AV. And if VE is scum, let's look at his other option: let AV live. If that happens, I can guarantee to you that AV would be jumping up and down calling for VE's lynch. From VE's perspective, it was probably better to take out AV and risk the attacks.

Towards Pine:
In post 62 Ice votes for Pine because of the whole brundibar/Pine gambit shenanigan. But by 119 that vote is gone, and the weak suspicion that was apparently there evaporates. Along the way, I kind of get the feeling that Ice is subtly coaching Pine. In post 62 he seems to mostly be voting to get Pine to explain himself. Post 65 is even worse. Ice specifically says "it's not like town you [Pine]." The unwritten, implied statement is "be more like town you." As early as post 87 Ice is already weaseling himself out of his Pine vote, by basically saying that Pine is Pine. He does that again in posts 177 and 191.

296 is really damning. ICEninja says that he wants Pine around for a few nights since, "There's a decent chance he'll either catch scum or clear a PR." First of all, there's the obvious Pine-preservation going on. Secondly, the reasoning is itself ridiculous. If Pine was scum (and he was) there was no way he was ever going to feed us even halfway decent information. Also, tracker is such a weak role that's it's difficult to catch scum and even more difficult to clear PRs (scum have PRs too...) Really, this is just Ice's attempt to keep an imperiled scum buddy around for as long as he can.
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Finally, VisceraEyes has been trying to take credit for Pine's lynch. This is simply untrue. Pine had 3 votes before VE even posted in this game. He had another vote before VE posted his full case on Pine (the post where he didn't just quote acfan...) and that vote was from our DOUBLE VOTER. Additionally, brundibar had indicated that we was up for voting Pine too.

Pine was extremely scummy scum, and VE did not single-handedly catch him. Pine's lynch happened quickly and decisively via widespread consensus among the town. Don't let VE get the credit.

However, we shouldn't lynch VE

too

quickly. I think everyone should weigh in on their scum reads, and in particular, what their stance is on lynching VE.

I hope this fairly in-depth analysis makes up somewhat for my absence from a good portion of this game.

[Alduskkel]

SHIT.

Well, it's up to the mod I guess. Personally I didn't even realize that much time had passed. Not a lot of discussion has happened since my last post.

I would still really like to be in this game but I won't throw a fit because that won't help anything.

Guess I'll be useful in the meantime...
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@brundibar: What do you think of my analysis? I think there is a lot more linking Pine and ICEninja/VisceraEyes. Yes, Pine mentioned me very little. But he mentioned a lot of people very little. Also Pine did mention me more than that one quote.

@VisceraEyes: You really think scum have a double voter? That seems potentially very overpowered. It's not unheard of, but it's unlikely.
Also, you didn't really respond to the part of my case that was actually specific to what you have posted -- namely, your alleged leading of the Pine wagon.

I feel like VE is freaking out in an attempt to sort of use confusion fu to get himself out of being lynched.
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You know what'd be cool? If I could just hydra with my replacement instead of leaving the game entirely. Assuming that I have to leave. I'd prefer to go solo, but I really don't want to get dumped out of a game that I think is just now getting a lot more interesting.

[Alduskkel]

@Whiskers: My point was that VE has not come up with any original analysis of his own. While not everything about one's case has to be cutting edge insight, having NOTHING new to add to a case means that either you're scum looking for an easy place to put your vote or the person you're voting for is extremely obviously scum.

The latter obviously isn't true (even if you don't take it for granted that I'm town), so it's the former.

VE is at L-1. I would not like to see a lynch until acfan posts, brundibar comes up with more to say, and Michel finishes his reread and posts about it.

After that, by all means lynch VE.

PEdit: Not sure about brundibar scum. His recent actions are weird (kind of scummy), but the Pine interactions just don't feel like scum interactions.

[Alduskkel]

Many thanks to the Mod, by the way.

[Alduskkel]

Been essentially V/LA this weekend, although I didn't announce it. Hopefully I won't be too tired later and will post today. Case on me looks like crap, don't lynch me until I've ripped it apart (or after that either).

Michel NK is garbage~
He probably got killed straight up rather than bodyguarding. Might be worth checking out his posts for breadcrumbs? Might be a waste of time, even if we learn who he protected then it still seems more likely that he just got targeted.
VE selfhammer is sooooo terrible. That might be a violation of the "play to win" rule. I can't believe we never got Michel's reread results. I should have seen it coming and unvoted. BL4R.

[Alduskkel]

I will VOTE: Pine. I think you should answer the questions nhammen posed. If you're getting this lazy already, what's to stop you from getting lazy later?

I know Alduskkel has already responded to this point being made by Arugula, but I don't buy it. This straight up sounds like he's voting Pine in response to his laziness which Alduskkel also expressed. Essentially Alduskkel is voting Pine for an attribute Alduskkel admitted he also has.

This post have multiple issues: His response to Michel's case reads as fake. Hanging onto the scumpotential point (Which was very explicitly explained and should be clear as day to him) seems like scum folding to a formidable defense but finding something to cling to for suspicion. Also says that Pines' laziness is anti-town and thus deserves a vote; which means of course that he knowingly and deliberately was acting anti-town himself.

Shows suspicion of multiple people but does not vote.

After over a week, votes VE which is very strange - he hops onto the easy vote while suddenly agreeing with the case on IceNinja. Note he never commented on the Pine lynch.

Calls something which he did (disappearing) anti-town

Okay, the big Pine/ICE case: First point is hypocritical as Pine voting Alduskkal late into his lynch, and Pine even closed with calling ICE/VE town. Individual ICE section is full of stretching. Also his closing "I think everyone should weigh in on their scum reads, and in particular, what their stance is on lynching VE." reads as fake concern to me. Of COURSE everyone is going to give their stance on lynching VE. But then if that's necessary, then why are you at all worried about a quicklynch on VE?

Overall hasn't commented on much and I really (even after reading his ISO just now) am unsure of his reads.

I didn't vote Pine because I thought his laziness was scummy. I voted Pine to get him to answer the questions and to discourage laziness. It was a pressure vote, basically. I just didn't say that at the time because saying that your vote is for pressure completely defeats the purpose of it.

Yes, laziness is anti-town. Yes, I admit I am lazy about this game. It's not scummy though, for several reasons. One, what it actually indicates is disinterest. Two, I actually PREFER playing as Mafia. So if anything I should be less lazy in games where I'm scum. Three, in my recent games (check any of the recent non-marathon games linked to on my wiki page) I have been lazy in those too, regardless of alignment. I have been replaced in five games to date, and all of those were recent as well. The overriding trend from me has simply been increasing boredom. Unfortunate, since I'm sure it means the game is less enjoyable for everyone involved, not just me.

This also factors into some of the other points. When I'm less interested in a game, I put less effort into scumhunting. When I put less effort into scumhunting, I don't have as strong/good reads. When I don't have as strong/good reads, I tend not to vote. Hence the post where I expressed multiple suspicions but still didn't vote. All of those suspicions were weak.

As for the "fakeness" of my response to Michel's defense: As you say, Michel's defense was indeed formidable. So I'm sure you'll agree that my unvote was justified. However, from my perspective, his defense did not completely eliminate my suspicions. I still maintain that the word "scumpotential" is wishywashy sounding.

Finally, with regards to the VE/ICEninja case: What about the individual section is "stretching"? And your last question about the quicklynch is silly. Frankly, what I warned against did indeed come to pass, even if it wasn't in the way I imagined it. VE was quicklynched, courtesy of his selfhammer. Michel never got to weigh in solidly on his reads, and now he's dead so we'll never quite know. Your idea that my concern was false is laughable considering what actually happened.
---

I will agree that SV is confirmed town UNLESS we get into a situation where there absolutely cannot be two scum -- e.g. 4 person lylo with no scumlynches other than Pine. In that case SV is almost certainly scum. That's all rather unlikely, though.

Alduskkel, you need fewer posts about how little you're posting. If you dont' have anything to post, just don't. don't post until there's content.

Well, my previous post wasn't contentless. And I do have to avoid getting prodded.

HAY GUISE I'M IN THIS GAME
Despite missing the entirety of Day 2. My apologies.

Vote: VisceraEyes

This is a pretty damn obvious vote. The Pine-ICEninja connection is really strong. I will iso Pine and ICEninja to be doubly sure. But I'm sure enough now to cast my vote as it is.

A) You made ten posts during the time you were absent from this game.

B) You say the Pine-ICEninja connection is "really strong." This is after Pine flipped yet prior to the VE/ICEninja flip.

C) In post 508 you act all up-in-arms about potentially being replaced, claiming you hadn't realized sooo much time had passed.

This is not your town play. Your town play is much more active and attentive to the game.

This is my intention to hammer. I'll wait for a bit for input, discussion, etc. But Ald needs to be lynched.

A) I was getting lynched in another game. Also those posts weren't exactly walls of text. But I will admit that I don't really have a good response to this point.

B) And your point is...?

C) How's this scummy?

Also, you don't know jack about my town play. I'd like to see your citations on that meta statement. We've played, what, 1-2 games together?

If I were in Alduskkel's position I would be defending myself and/or finger pointing the scummiest players around me. That he's not doing so doesn't necessarily make him scum. It does make him anti-town and at any rate a good policy lynch for the day.

Now is not the time to be policy lynching. With there almost certainly being two scum left, a policy lynch is almost consenting to requiring 100% lynch accuracy in the next two days. I'd rather take a 67% accuracy requirement.

Alduskkel, why don't you look town? You looked town last time I played with you.

When did we last play together?

Why don't I look town? You tell me, then I'll tell you why you're wrong.
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@popp: Waiting for a new case to pop up? That's far-fetched. If anything the best thing for me to do -- town or scum -- is to start posting a lot. Defense and offense and all that.
---

Not sure who to vote for yet. I was sure that VE was going to flip scum... as for the remaining players, I don't feel confident with regards to any of them. It doesn't help that some of them are lurkers or replaced lurkers. Yes, I know I'm part of that crowd, although I think I provide more content than, say, SV, CES, or brundibar.

[Alduskkel]

Well I kind of deserve to be replaced at this point. It would probably be best if you just lynched me BEFORE Jackal finds a replacement if you're going to lynch me. Otherwise, I kind of feel bad for whoever does replace me. Also I'm a Vanilla Townie -- for some reason no one ever asked for a claim? I guess it's more or less obvious what our PRs are.

When did we last play together?
Early 2010. >_>

Why don't I look town? You tell me, then I'll tell you why you're wrong.

That's a pretty meaningless question. You just don't, the same way you don't look like a kitten or a fireman. Do you think you look town? Because I have some trouble reconciling with the rest of that post.

Well the burden of proof is upon you to prove that I'm scum, that was my point. I wouldn't say I look town, but to my eyes I don't look very scummy. But I know that I'm town so I'm not impartial.

Also I don't know what game you're talking about, but early 2010 was a while ago. Maybe you should link the game.

Alduskkel:
1) I read your explanation for the Pine vote. Then I read the Pine vote again. I'm going with my explanation, it fits much better.

2) Re: Laziness: So it's not suspicious for you to call yourself anti-town and continue to do that anti-town action because you are apparently always anti-town?

3) I might be able to buy your "I don't vote without strong reads" if you hadn't voted VE out of no where.

4) I maintain I have trouble believing that "scumpotential" was a legitimate enough point.

5) VE/ICE case:

Firstly, in post 30 Ice declares himself "the easiest player to read on the site" because he's supposedly a bad scum player. That's straight-up manipulation of meta for his own benefit.
In post 40 Ice casts suspicion on Michel without much substance. Essentially, he wants to prevent solid town reads to develop -- keeps more mislynch options on the table. The main reason it is scummy is because it's so random and out of place.
In 232 Ice casually gets onto the Arugula wagon without contributing anything himself. This after he had just asked Michel if he would hammer Arugula (in 218), to which Michel said yes. That, in retrospect, looks definitively like scum fishing for support for a town wagon. Later, Ice sets up Aurorus for the next lynch. This makes up such a large portion of Ice's posts that I won't bother to reference every one of them, but if you want to start go to 270. Given that we now know that AV was town (and was very strongly in favor of a Pine-Ice scumteam) this is incredibly scummy. We can WIFOM waffle about how scum just want us to think that Ice would have done that, but let's not. The first, most straightforward aspect of WIFOM is just generally the most likely. Couple that with the fact that towns rarely attack people based off of the night kill (again, due to the WIFOM defense) I can see VE NKing AV. And if VE is scum, let's look at his other option: let AV live. If that happens, I can guarantee to you that AV would be jumping up and down calling for VE's lynch. From VE's perspective, it was probably better to take out AV and risk the attacks.

1) How is this a point?

2) He hardly cast suspicion on Michel.

3) I don't understand your ICE/Arugula wagon point, it could be valid, I'm not sure.

4) You are saying ICE is scum because he campaigned for a lynch of a townie which a pure post hoc fallacy.

5) Telling us to not think about it and just accept it wasn't WIFOM.

6) You then go on to WIFOM to make another point.

Finally, your excuse for cautioning against a quicklynch is just post hoc reasoning and thus invalid for justifying a mindset at a given time.

First points:
1. And why does your explanation fit better?
2. It's not scummy if someone does something anti-town regardless of whether or not they're town or scum. If you want to press a lynch on me for lurking then that's a POLICY LYNCH.
3. Voting out of nowhere does not mean the read was not solid. In fact, I was pretty certain that VE was scum. But he wasn't, so I'm kind of lost.
4. Then we'll have to agree to disagree, because obviously we are interpreting the same statement differently.

Second points:
1. It's a point because manipulating your meta is something scum want to do, not town.
2. He does though. It's in the best interests of scum to avoid having people who are super townie looking, as Michel was. If no one in a game looks overwhelmingly pro-town, scum are in a great position. The only thing better would be if the scum were the only ones who looked overwhelmingly pro-town -- but that would probably be worthy of a Scummy award.
3. Getting on a wagon without adding anything is just bandwagoning. So ICE bandwagoned but he also did so after checking to see if he could get Michel's support -- which from my point of view then looked like scum trying to see just how much support he could get for a mislynch.
4. To some degree you are right. But getting AV lynched would benefit a scum ICEninja more than a normal mislynch -- it would also eliminate an attacker of his and Pine's. That's why it was a scumtell.
5&6. I don't really see your problem with these points. It was clearly beneficial for ICEninja scum to NK Aurorus. I presented the two scenarios -- AV dying and AV not dying. The first was good for ICEninja/VE scum. The second was really bad, to the extent that I believed that VE/ICE scum would not want to go with this option even taking into account WIFOM.

And what's the problem with warning against a quicklynch? I was basically saying, "Let's not cut off discussion." Discussion ended up being cut off. My warning was completely valid.

Addulsk: Do you think that mafia are very much more likely to be on a town wagon than town?

No. Being wrong isn't scummy. What matters is how you get on a wagon. In general, pushing a wagon and creating a well-developed case is pro-town regardless of the alignment of the target. If the target is town, then it's still a townie thing to do because scum don't want to stick their heads out on a mislynch. You don't need me to explain why it's a pro-town action if the target is mafia.

On the other hand, it's scummy to suddenly get on a scum wagon at the last second. That reeks of bussing.

@CES: The way you defend me I wonder why the hell you're voting for me. Why don't you unvote, and maybe SV will also be convinced and we can NOT head to Day 5 lylo. In that case I will probably be replaced, but at least my replacement will not be in such a shitty situation.

@Salamence: Your case on me is two sentences. *buzzer* Try harder. Starting to think the brundibar/Salamence slot is scum. Salamence's current reads (and the lack of real substance to back them up) seems like scum getting ready to get on an easy mislynch (me), among other things.

@Everyone: Do ANY of you still think I was lurking as a STRATEGY? I'm getting replaced here. That's not in any way, shape, or form strategically advantageous.

If my lynch is inevitable (and it is unless I get two people to unvote or one person to unvote and SV changes his mind) then just lynch me soon before I get replaced because I would feel bad if some poor soul replaces into me, posts like 5 times TRYING to defend my actions, and then promptly gets hammered anyway. Then town loses in lylo or something and they have a town loss on their record out of no fault of their own.

@Mod: You might want to inform potential replacements that they are in danger of being lynched almost immediately upon replacing in. Some people would definitely be unhappy to replace into my slot, I imagine.

[Alduskkel]

Still not scum here.

Good luck in lylo.

[Alduskkel]

^Very true.

For the umpteenth time, my apologies for my activity levels. I don't think I did a single pro-town thing this game except that one time I was suspicious of PoPP. Well played the scum team, Junpei was very town-looking and PoPP was under the radar. Pine, were all those post mortem mislynch setups intentional? If so then you were possibly the best scum player on the team, setting up two straight mislynches (more or less) after you're dead isn't easy.