Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[Whiskers]

With regards to Pine's reaction test: Terrible. Firstly, votes without reasons

always

get attention, criticism, and/or votes on the voter. Secondly, the results of the test are really not useful. brundibar's Post 85 sums it up. Trying to nail down an unestablished player based on his meta just doesn't work. OTOH, I don't see how Pine's test is scummy. It seems more stupid than anything else.

The problem is that Pine prides himself on not being stupid. So this is severely out of character.

@ICE: you mean that pine regulary takes anti-town actions? I did a quick read of his games and saw him surviving to endgame in a couple of them. How comes he isn't lynched more early more often?

Town surviving to late game is more about not being night killed than not being lynched. Night kills always land on town, where lynches don't. Anti-town players (Pine isn't ALWAYS anti-town, but he is pretty much always conceited and somewhat rude, which often gets mistaken for anti-town or even scummy) and is virtually always a lynch possibility, but rarely the first pick for a lynch, so he ends up surviving to late game all the time. No offense to Pine at all, I've gotten used to playing with him (the first couple times were not very enjoyable but I get him now) and I'm not really convinced he's scum here.

Especially with the tracker claim, I don't want to see Pine lynched today. Scum will night kill him, which is fine because that means our strong pro-town players will survive to day 2.

What? WHAAAAAT!?
No. Scum will NOT nightkill him, because he's irritating and decidedly anti-town. Scum

will not

night kill him, because he distracts all other players and is a really, really good scapegoat. Scum will kill their own buddies before they kill Pine, because Pine actively prevents scumcatching from getting done.
this is, of course, only when Pine is not scum. Then, Pine doesn't get Nightkilled because he's scum. Pine survives until the end of the game.

See, but Pine doesn't get lynched because he can always worm his way out of it. For some reason, we're always hesitant to lynch Pine. Look, even now, he makes a claim of a weak investigative role. It's not unbelievable, there's little chance he'll be counter-claimed, and there's little chance (since it's such a weak role) that he'll even draw the nigthkill for it. This is a perfect survival claim. You know who

depends

on survival to win? Well, yeah, an SK. But it's more important for the two or three mafia to survive as long as possible, than it is for the town to. Pine survives until the end of the game.

Pine is Pine is Pine. There's no telling his alignment, and in my personal opinion, it's best to lynch him early, when the information is the most vague and the townies are the most willing to put through a meaningless vote. Because you can't lynch him later on. You just can't. It can't be done. You can't do it. Try it. You Can't. Pine survives until the end of the game.

I'm not 100% caught up but I just wanted to make a comment that in my entire game history, I have never seen town have 2 of the same role except under circumstance of JOAT, and even then it's extremely rare for a town JOAT to share a role with another town PR.

Mayo Clinic Open game.
Case closed.

[Whiskers]

Oh, yeah, I'm also Bugs' replacement.

Arugalu is town, and probably comes from a long background of EpicMafia.com. Am I right, Arugala? Arugulu. Fffff.

And, for all my bashing on Pine, I've decided that it's in my best interest to buddy buddy up to him as much as possible. This kind of player likes for other players to bathe in grease so he can just slide around in them.

However, I'm considering voting for him right now.

[Whiskers]

Instead, for now, I'll be putting my vote on

vote:jee

,
and
(Just went and looked and my vote is already on Pine.)

I'll go look at his ISO and see if I can find what I thought was fishy.
If I can't find that, then jee has no reason to worry, since I'm one single vote. Right, jee?

Right.

ICE buddying with Pine all throughout the game? Noted.

[Whiskers]

Something smells, and it's not just because I need a shower. Something about the ICE/AV business.

What does this refer to? I read everything, but I read it all in one day and I missed this?
Please explain.

[Whiskers]

Uh, unless, of course, that would bring the kind of attention that would make any info from it useless. I don't think that's one of those cases, but we've had so many failed attempts at hunter/gathering so far this game because somepony has pointed out another pony's super-secret scumhunting plans (see "I'm voting to apply pressure" and "It was going to be a gambit").

[Whiskers]

Nevermind, I found it.

I'm not going to repeat reasons that were posted last page. Feel free to read them again yourself, and questions about any particular point you don't understand.

Dear Princess ICE,
Today I learned about reading page 11 and not finding any reasons why Arugublu being town might give scumpoints to AVox. Sometimes when someone is scummy, you have to pretend like you've already said why.
Your faithful student,
Whiskers

Wait, preedit.
After a lot of soul searching I've come to realize he meant something about "IF e's town" and "IF this other thing (which is an opinion) is a fact," THEN "scumpoints" which isn't actually scum.

So: How incredibly weak, ICE.
And: Holy over-reactions, AVox.
Dr. Pecan, what about Argh! flipping town makes ICE scum? Accordng to everyone else, that' supposed to make AVox scum, right? .__.

[Whiskers]

You know full well I match my town play to my scumplay.

Otherwise I'd be that horrible VI that gets policy lynched Day 1 anyway. Remember those good old days??

[Whiskers]

WHAT THE FUCK ICE

NO
THAT DOESNT WORK

"AV IS SCUM IF ARGULU IS TOWN"
"VOTE AV"
"ARGULU HAS A GOOD CHANCE OF SCUM"

NO
NO NO A THOUSAND TIMES NO

I supported you up until this point. Now you're being stupid and I doubt everything you've said prior.
If Argulu is town, then you can fight about it tomorrow.
If Argulu is scum, good job, town, we just lynched scum!
If Argulu is town,

THEN YOU CAN FIGHT WITH ICE TOMORROW STOP BEING A DICK

Also: Michel, I was considering voting for Pine. at that line, I scrolled back up the page and was reminded that my vote "was already" or had been, on Pine. Even though I changed it a few lines ago. I write stream of consciousness posts almost exclusively, with minor editting.

In other news: Pine buddies back in 300! Wow!

[Whiskers]

Arugargle, we will likely lynch you today anyway.
Since I'm replacing Quag, and you mentioned that same player just now, can you tell me what you mean by that? I'm curious. You'll probably be lynched today, but I want to look into that.

Also, can you tell me one or two things that will be cleared up with an ICE lynch?

[Whiskers]

I don't know, I get the feeling I'm actually right, but I have no reasons to support my side of the argument.

Aru! Can you link me to that post when Michel first mentions that?

[Whiskers]

I am willing to vote ICE for a number of reasons,

among which are his connections to Pine

, and his repeated waffling on certain issues.

Oh OK so it's totally fine to lynch someone on day 1 because of associative tells. OH WAIT.

Frankly, this. I'd be Willing to vote ICE,
BUT NOT TODAY.
remember how ICE was pushing an AVox lynch and Pine come in and coached him with, "We'll push that tomorrow"? Basiclaly the same feeling here.

Ooh, I start out in my head that and ICE/Pine scumteam is a good bet and that they're good lynches, but then AVox comes in and makes himself look stupid and I start to seriously doubt my gut reads. One of my tells is that, if no one can make a good case, the player likely isn't scum.
nyway, like I said I'll look into it.

Also, I'llbe looking into whatever Michel linked, because I haven't yet.

[Whiskers]

I don't even... double vote mafia? Did we all get two votes?
You pegged the scumteam? How? Was it all based on gut?

[Whiskers]

Did I replace into a scumslot, and mess everything up? Or did you just see me there and change your mind and think I was scum?
I really don't remember details.
Why does it matter?

[Whiskers]

Uh...
Shall I hammer Agu, then?

[Whiskers]

Also, one of Michel's main points for voting for me, quag's interaction with me, has conveniently disappeared, and now my lynch will apparently settle this AV/ICE argument. It won't. My lynch reasons are molding to fit the issues that need to be resolved, when in actuality, ICE and possibly Michel are setting up for two mislynches, when we can clear everything up with an ICE lynch.

Can I see where the argument disappears? Is it because he brings up a new point without reminding us of this one? Anypony can answer this, I'm looking for info, not reactions.

Also, I just want to get something straight:
-Aru town: Look at AVox
-Aru scum: Look at Whiskers
Right?
So, from an outsider's viewpoint:
-I should be NOT trying to lynch Aru, because I want her to be town. If she is town, they don't look at me tomorrow.
also,
-AVox should either want her to be scum, and trying to lynch her, because a scumflip "clears" AVox, or
-AVox should want her to be town, and NOT want to lynch her, because townlynch and because it makes her look bad.
Right?

What if AVox is town? What if AVox doesn't have a strong conviction that Noob Aru is scum, on Day 1? What if she's right, and we Lynch Aru, and it reflects poorly on AVox for some reason. What's she to have done? stopped the lynch?

On the other hoof, what if AVox is scum? She's willing to lynch townaru until it reflects poorly on her. Then, when lynch and flip, we see that AVox was right, but because she has scuminfo that Aru is not on her team.

Idk, WIFOM? but what exactly ARE we learning from this lynch? It seems you ought to be able to break it down into two lists: Things we learn if Aru flips Town, and Things we learn if Aru flips Scum.


ICE, now is a great time to do that research you were talking about doing during the Night if Aru flips town. We appear to have the time now, and will have even MORE time if we get that stupid extra-extension, so just go ahead and do it.

[Whiskers]

I've been trying to get ICE to do it since he claimed to see a connection there. He hasn't yet. And he won't.

Do you think Aluguga is scum?

See, I didn't get that. I thought you were just accusing him of being scum because he said he would do it, not saying that he should do it.

Not really.

I don't read in to connection stuffs until I have a flip. It would definitely waste my time if we don't lynch Aru or he flips scum. I was simply declaring my intent.

The problem with this is that I fully, COMPLETELY expect you to go (tomorrow):

"Uh... yeah, I did that research last night, and it totally points to AVox being scum. Everybody pile on the wagon, go, go, go, quicklynch obvious scum"
And that's all we get. Not a real explanation, just an assurance that you did, in fact, find a connection about something and that that connection was, in fact, damning.

AV's reaction and accusations against ICE sound more like those of a paranoid madman. ICE made a point that if Alu flips town, then the players on Alu's wagon should be analyzed appropriately. This is logical. ICE seemed to think inparticular that he could learn something about AV's alignment depending on Alu's flip. But AV completely overreacted, and started making huge, assumption-based conclusions.
I still, frankly, am in support of a Pine lynch. His behavior has not gotten anymore pro-town. And if we don't lynch him day 1, then lynching him later will invoke too much WIFOM (did he survive the night because he is scum? Or because he is scummy enough to deflect attention from the true scum?).
Alu is probably town. AV may be a good secondary lynch but I'm not really that confident about anyone except Pine.

I don't think we won't lynch him later because of WIFOM. With Pine, you pretty much have to look straight past the WIFOM, if there is any, and treat him like he's scum.
What I think will prevent us from lynching him is his own clever play. Town or scum, the more facts Pine has available, the more likely his story becomes and the less likely we all think he is scum. Tht last sentence didn't quite make sense but I'm not fully conscious and I can't figure out how to better word it.

[Whiskers]

Oh yeah, and I quoted all of that last post (I remember now) because I think the first paragraph states my sudden hesitation to follow AVox onto an ICE wagon.

[Whiskers]

I"m not really worried about you being NKed, that'd be great. wouldn't have to mislynch you.

You have a substantial case on AVox? If we're already divided, and he's one of the candidates for lynch, you're not really dividing town FURTHER, instead, make a case for best scum and we'll lynch best scum.

w/e. Tomorrow, then.


Hm, with your "substantial case," do you really need an Aru townflip to attack AVox?

[Whiskers]

Michel:
Your second point it the only one that really holds.
The first one is true whether we wait or not. Whoever posts a case on Day 2 is going to keep any other cases from being made, because people are lazy and generally suck. Just like a case made today would keep other cases from being made on Day 2.

Your third one is missing the point of making two separate scenarios: one where the player is scum, one where the player is town. You don't go "well, gee, what if that player is actually town though?!" when making the scumcase for her-- if that feeling is that strong, you include it in your town-scenario.

Also: That's fine that he's not voting for AVox, but then he later goes onto include him as one of the possible lynches for the day. Like, "This lynch is on the table." I expect to see something like "Why didn't we lynch him earlier!? He was ON the TABLE!!" later in the game. "I knew he was scum all along!" in lylo. something like that.

[Whiskers]

So, Pine, huh? Cool!

Hey, ICE. Can we have that Substantial Case now, please?

[Whiskers]

So, here's my thoughts:
We have to either lynch Pine early in the Day, or make a wagon elsewhere and lynch him later.
If we make a wagon on Pine early in the Day, and do not lynch him (it plateaus) we won't be able to lynch him today.

Also, Pine: In Your Opinion, Does it look like ICE is doing really bad buddying with you?

[Whiskers]

cool. Are you still on your phone? Could you post other games with Tracker/Cop?

[Whiskers]

Not really. ICE has a Townread. He isn't going out of his way, and you're magnifying every interaction beyond realism.

Both of my main D1 scumreads flipped Town, so I suppose it's back to the drawing board and secondary reads.

Vote: Alduskkel

Since when has this guy been a scumread? What happened to Brundibar?
Can you remind me what about Nhammen was scummy?

[Whiskers]

So, right. But why not Brundibar here? Brundibar's scumminess turned you onto Nhammen, right? You have like, those two posts about why Ald is scum? 1 because he's voting for you and 2 because he supported a wagon but didn't vote it?

[Whiskers]

What about the Double-voter and a Tracker? I know setup speculation is bad, but look: The Tracker has to have roles to follow around, right? Like, the doctor, that visists someone at night. If you don't have other night-based roles, it's just a cop: whenever you track someone to the nightkill, they're scum.
Doublevoter doesn't visit someone during the night. It's not a night-visitation role. Since it would severly limit the use of the Tracker, and it's a Mini, so only like, two or three power roles, it doesn't really make sense for a tracker and a Doublevoter to be in the same game.

Tracker+Doublevoter: there's your two town power roles.
Doublevoter+Cop: this is much more likely, since the Doublevoter and the Cop don't rely on the existence of other roles, really.

Tracker+Cop: This would be okay, since the cop visits, and the tracker could track him. But unfortunately, we have a confirmed Doublevoter, too

Doublevoter+Cop+Tracker: What? Why? What's the point? this is possible but really weird! Setup speculation is bad and everything but you've been scummy (your playstyle), inaccurate (not your playstyle), even dumb at times (not your playstyle), and have a really bad fakeclaim that

you even admitted looks

like a fakeclaim.

[Whiskers]

JEsus fucking christ, ICE, you couldn't even be bothered to quote yourself so I can GO TO YOUR POST AND CHECK FOR MYESLF WHAT MICHEL'S ARGUMENT "THAT CHECKS OUT" IS!?

And yes, you just went, EXACTLY, "IT TURNS OUT, IT CHECKS OUT, AVOX IS SCUMLOLOLOL."
Not examples why Michel's point was right, or anything. Not examples of what Michel's point was. Why didn't you do this yesterday? Michel's bit that you agreed with (don't bother telling us how or why, just say, "gee he was right") didn't add a damn thing to your case.

Because you can't be bothered to give us this VITAL! piece of information, I didn't bother reading anything after your self-quote (except not really, a self-quote would have a post number and a link), because you decided yesterday that AVox was scum (based on a substantial case) and any case you make is going to say as much.

vote:ICEninja.

I'll probably lynch Pine, too, if we think we have a legit reason. Or, you know, not. But a Pine lynch will probably go through anyway and I'm happy to leave my vote Here ALLLLLL day long.

[Whiskers]

@Michel:
Maybe, but I didn't know that. Didn't know what your [original remark] was, didn't know where to find it. Didn't know the info above the almost-self-quote was in response to that.

[Whiskers]

You mean the quality of game where you just say stuff and assume other players know what you're making reference to? I won't miss you.

You decided Avox was scum yesterday. You decided that Aru would flip town, apparently strengthening your scumread on Avox. But you would have found a way to vote Avox today even if Aru had flipped scum.
Why were you on Aru if she was going to flip town? Why were you not on Avox, since you decided Avox must be scum? I'm not convinced I even

need

to read the rest of your case, what I read sounded like you started a case with your mind made up

[Whiskers]

But you didn't make that case, instead you lynched a townie. I'm a little hung up on that.

[Whiskers]

I'm liking this idea.

Wtf I did.

Did you not read my posts while I was voting for AV?

After I realized there would have been too much town division I backed off, and still feel 100% justified in doing so (sure it was a mislynch, but with the information I had at the time it was the right move).

I seriously cant believe how bad your push on me is. Only once has anyone ever pushed a worse vote against me. Ever.

Here are your posts while you were voting for AV,
Where you said AVox looked paranoid and you said that you would look into Michel's thing during Night 1.
Not a case. Not the case you made today. That didn't get posted.

There's a couple other things of note here, too:

Michel was the one who brought up the observation, not me. I simply said "yeah, you're right, if Aru flips town I'm going to look at AV tomorrow". AV then attacked me hard, despite Michel having been the one to make the accusation. I'm clearly the easier of the 2 of us to attack, so it would make more sense for scum AV to attack me on the matter as opposed to Michel.

Also, AV gave very silly reasons to leave the Aru wagon, declaring him "confirmed town" because of me agreeing with Michel's pointing out of AV's possible slip up. What the hell?

AV seems terrified of the fact that he's going to get scum points if Aru flips town. He wouldn't worry about that if he thought Aru was scum though, would he? And he obviously thought so.

(by the way, this would be a good place to link or quote posts that support this this claim)

Yeah the more I think about this the more it makes sense.

Unvote Arugula, vote AurorusVox

. If we run too close to the deadline, though, I'll go back to Arugula.

Opportunism for the fail by Arugula.

We can come back to AV tomorrow.

Hmm. Possibly. Arugula is still a good lynch candidate.

I do, however, want to draw everyone's attention to this quote:

I'm going to check this in context during N1. If this wagon is indeed on a townie, and this points true

, then I know where my radar will lead me to at the start of day 2.

I didn't say I would automatically give AV scum points should Aru flip town, I said I will go and investigate the point should Aru flip town. If you indeed had a solid defense, and you indeed thought Aru would flip scum, then why the hell would you be

in the least bit worried

about this? It looks very much to me like you are worried because not only do you have information that Aru is town, but that you did indeed slip up.

My current vote, however, actually has pretty much nothing to do with Michel's point at all, and

everything to do with his completely ridiculous reactions.

(But look, no case.)

I'm obviously not going to push a lynch on an associative tell when Aru hasn't flipped.

And I also haven't forgotten that AV voted Aru again when Aru was at l-1, which is just wtf.

Michel: I will go through and comment on ICE's case up to where I stopped.

[Whiskers]

Pine: The following posts are appeals to emotion:
Post 440.
Post 447.

[Whiskers]

Okay, that's really weird, all of my {post} tags link to the same post in the theme games forum.

[Whiskers]

Care to explain ASIDE from the alleged coaching? Let me point out that you're riding on points that other people have already made.

Uh, isn't that how you win the game? I mean, unless each player picks one point to focus on and lets all the other players find one for themselves. When you make a case, you expect other players to "ride on points that other people have already made."

Man, because Tracker and DV don't go well together. SV is 100% mod-confirmed double-voter...the presence of a double-voter seems to EXCLUDE the possibility of a Tracker, so it almost seems like....

God, it almost seems like SV is confirmed scum when you look at it like that.

What the FUCK are you talking about?!
Oh wait, because it would be weird to believe that claim.

Meh. It's good policy NOT to lynch claimed powerroles on Day 1.

Yes, I immediately unvoted because you

just don't lynch a claimed power role.

Honestly, that's almost Mafia 101.

VE, your almost-spamming of posts here makes it look, to me, like you're trying too hard.

As stated here.

We ask for a pre-hammer claim, not so that we automatically don't lynch it - but so we have all the information the lynchee has before they die. God, THAT is fucking Mafia 101 SV. Clearly we can't just policy not lynch claimed power roles or scum would claim power roles every single game.

Uh, no... because Day 1, a tracker, cop, doc, jailkeeper, (or, you know, ANY nightrole) has no information. so nothing is gained.

Oh good, not much of a catch up! I'm already done!
VE clearscum, thanks!

Vote: VisceraEyes!

You said youself, VE, that we can't get anything else done untli you're lynched. Okay! Byeeeee~!
Also, you're spamming nothing last page, also , SV being scum for unvoting a claimed PR on Day 1 is stupid. Like, VE stupid. ..oh wait.


I will say this though: I don't remember it being a common tactic for Pine to buddy his buddies.

Mod Note: This puts VE at L-1

[Whiskers]

Now: If I understand basic math... which, I'm a little shaky on...

If I added correctly, VE, you're now at L-1! How exciting!
You have two options: quickhammer youself and see if you can end the Day without letting the town have ANY useful discussion,
OR, you can go after scum! Let's set SV aside, and maybe even Aduskukulelbibl. Instead, go for, maybe, one of the lurkers, one of the weaker, but still scummy, players.

Or, my goodness, go after me! I've been "in support" of a Pine lynch all game but I don't think I ever even voted for him! I'm sad nopony picked on me yet.

[Whiskers]

I wonder if there are three scum. Instead of scum power roles, maybe three scum? Pine, ICE/VE, and Brundi? Pine buddying scumbuddies seems unusual to me, but I know it's a tactic to buddy one, bus the other! Bus the weakscum, Brundi, buddy the strong scum ICE. Right?
Would explain Pine's unfounded attacks on Brundi and Brundi's weird attack on Ald.

[Whiskers]

Mod Note: This puts VE at L-1

...what is the occasion that this needs to be noted here...?

[Whiskers]

I mean, sure, there's no way you could have known I would have pointed it out inmy next post, but if I were scum trying to get an accidental speedmislynch on VE, wouldn't that just ABSOLUTELY FUCK IT UP?
Does town really need that much help? I thought we were doing pretty well!

[Whiskers]

Well for one thing, you keep telling how great you are at the game and then do really nooby things.
We're setting SV aside because he's VERY

PROBABLY

town, just based on his role. We're setting SV aside because the best you could come up with to attack him is, "uh... he didn't lynch the claimed power role on Day 1! He should have done that! That would have made sense somehow!"
Which tells me that, (since you're such a great player, eh?) there isn't a case to be made.

The other guy... I'm pretty much setting him aside because he made a case (one that makes sense, Aldsu: 1, VE: 0), and because you tried to attack him.

Why did you post so many contentless, AtE posts on that other page?
Why did you do this:

Mafia 101? Really? So claimed power roles get a pass, huh? Every time? That's absolutely ludicrous...but you know, what do I know?

Fake-claim is like my scum power-move. It's like Goku's Kameameha or some shit - when I roll scum, the very FIRST think I think is "Hrm, what power role am I going to claim

this

game. Know why? Because people like you are like "Nooo, we don't lynch claimed power roles."

We ask for a pre-hammer claim, not so that we automatically don't lynch it - but so we have all the information the lynchee has before they die. God, THAT is fucking Mafia 101 SV. Clearly we can't just policy not lynch claimed power roles or scum would claim power roles every single game.

When it's clearly a generalization and we were talking specifically about Day 1? Ha, "we." I wasn't even here, I'd forgotten I was in a mafia game.
Paragraph 1: Claimed power roles get a pass

on Day 1

, yeah, pretty much every time. Not ludicris, since it keeps us from lynching REAL power roles, lets the nightkill target them, lets other power roles target them (cop, for instance), lets them get at least one night's worth of use. There's no good reason to lynch PRs Day 1, if you decide you like lynching PRs, you can always do it Day 2.

Paragraph 2: Yes, I think we all do that. It's kind of a fun, "gee, what will happen if I get to be almost lynched and have to save myself!?" The adrenaline rush, right? So, what fakeclaim did you decide for this game? And, you admit here that it's common practice to not lynch claimed power roles. What you intentionally disregard is that it is BAD NEWS to lynch a power role

in the first game day.

What if it's your only one? Then you're Mountainous -2 townies, and we know how that will end.

But hay, look! It's paragraph THREE.
it's absolutely brilliant. I'll quote it again:

We ask for a pre-hammer claim, not so that we automatically don't lynch it - but so we have all the information the lynchee has before they die. God, THAT is fucking Mafia 101 SV. Clearly we can't just policy not lynch claimed power roles or scum would claim power roles every single game.

We ask for a pre-hammer claim on Day 1 because we don't want to hit a Power Role. Which, yes, encourages early scumcatches to claim Power Roles. Sometimes we lynch them anyway. Sometimes they are actually mafia.
Now, on Day TWO, you ask for a claim before lynch, to get information-- cop reports, doctor saves, whatever (and, if you believe the claim, why are you lynching the player?!), but sure, you get the information because

there is some information

.
On Day 1, a Tracker has NO information. Neither does a cop, a doc, a jailkeeper, a bus driver, a gunsmith, a dreaming god-- you might get something out of a Mason, but that might be a BAD thing. And really, how are you going to get a lynch on a mason through on Day 1? Othermason(s) to the rescue!
And, yes, we can policy not-lynch claimed power roles (on day 1). And yes, it DOES encourage scum to think about PR claims-- which is something

you say you do

when you get to play scum.
Nothing here about SV's play is out of the ordinary! You're just being stupid! Or... you know, trying to find scumminess where there isn't it.

Hay! I have more ranting to do, silly pony! You say, "rawr rawr, why didn't "they" kill the doublevoter instead of my nemesis!?" And then go on to attack him. WIFOM!
And another thing! why did you go through all of this... after all of us? We'd already all come to these conclusions. I mean, I suppose I can't be mad at your for re-reading (you were

RE

-reading, right?) the thread, but someone had already said things like, "gee, the Doublevoter is probably town!" and "gee, tracker and doublevoter is an unlikely combo!"
Did you need to make seven QQ posts setting the scene for a weak accusation?


But here, you apparently know scum Pine really well. Right?
What was Scum Pine's motive for buddying with ICE? What was ICE's motive for buddying back?

[Whiskers]

Furthermore,

Interestingly enough, as Pine was such "incredibly scummy scum" and his lynch was already assured - where was Pine's vote during all this?

:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Wait. What?

This, and

But then, the stated willingness to hammer yourself makes me (barely) think you just might be town.

Well, there you go, he didn't hammer himself, and is not really willing. If just the fact that he didn't hammer himself doesn't prove to you that it was a huge AtE to make us all crai evrytiem, he Unvoted... nobody. Again. The last time he unvoted, he declared his willingness to selfhammer (as Mr. Antitown Butthurt McTowniepants), and now he's unvoting again-- like, "gee, I was gonna self hammer, but now that I'm at L-1, I take it back!"

Alternatively, it could be a code that's like, "nightkill whomever I'm arguing with."

[Whiskers]

OOPS, this was supposed to be at the top of that last post. Because I postspam.

So scum want to lynch scum too in minis. Cool, I'll keep that in mind when I'm playing them in the future. That will make finding them extraordinarily easy. ^^

Good job, you've learned about bussing! See, you grow everyday, VE. someday, you might be as knowledgeable as I was, when I finished playing a newbie game.

Honestly, the fact that you think I'm the best lynch after yesterday is indicative of you being lazy, not convinced I'm scum. *shrug* I'll tell you who the last scum is, don't you worry your pretty little head.

Hi there, huge AtE! How is it lazy? You were a good lynch yesterday, you're still a good lynch now! (remember that whole thing about being able to lynch a claimed power role Day 2 if it feels suspicious? Compare scenarios!) When were you going to tell us about that last scum? I'm still over here worrying my pretty little head because you've made no progress in catching your otherscumpartner-- or, wait, were you going to reveal yourself?!

SV really wanted to lynch Pine, which I picked up reading the thread. So I knew I could count on him for a vote when I made the Pine case. And I didn't copy/paste ac's case, I quoted it so it didn't get ignored more and then added my own points. Points I didn't see anyone else bringing up.

Whoa, whoa, is that the same guy who you're calling SCUM for not lynching him crazily Day 1!?

[Whiskers]

I'm still V/LA, and I

did

announce it.
Ald could be scum, Junpe's slot is pretty much balnk if I remember correctly, SV is a doublevoter, probably town (for role and fpr play-- I just pretty much assume this.), Popp got some heat uh... yesterday? Day 1 maybe? and it seems to have died. Scumbussing? or scum attacking the weakpoint?( Or just attacking?_ idk. Note to self: look at the players attacking Popp early. Also, wasn't Michel attacking two players as he went out, Pine and somepony else? Note to self: look for second Michel attack. Cogito... I don't remember who he replaced. might eb worth looking into.

Voting

(vote: ) Brundibar

), because he's had a lot of attention from Pine. Also, that hammer mentioned in Popp's post.. hey, it looks like that post is

all

about Brundibar! That's good. Although the fact that it isn't attached to a vote makes me wonder if I should be voting yet-- especially as I'm still on V/LA, and only for another day or so. Oh well.

So, in conclusion:
Junpei (0) - null, blank
Shattered Viewpoint (0) - town, setup speculation
Alduskkel (0) - null, but scum. Mostly for lurking. You know, lurking helps mislynches, eh? It is anti-town, and that really does mean pro-scum.
pieceofpecanpie (0) - null...? maybe scum. I need to do research on his attackers earlier.
Cogito Ergo Sum (0) - null, suspicious. where have you been all game? I have the feeling you might not actually be a replacement, you just haven't played all game. Or something like that.
Whiskers (0) - Me.
brundibar (0) - probably scum! but I guess I'm not basing this on anything too solid, yet. Later, maybe I'll make a case.

Alduskkel, you need fewer posts about how little you're posting. If you dont' have anything to post, just don't. don't post until there's content.

[Whiskers]

I don't think it does exactly-- PoPP was saying something about Pine putting you in a town slot. It's kind of like, bus one (Brundi), buddy one (ICE).
although, now that I think about it, ICE wasn't scum, was he?

Unvote.

I'm not convinced that you're not scum, however, I'm not strongly convinced that you are.
I'm back from my "vacation," and therefore I'll be posting... probably content... soon. From here on out, in fact.

[Whiskers]

B) You say the Pine-ICEninja connection is "really strong." This is after Pine flipped yet prior to the VE/ICEninja flip.

C) In post 508 you act all up-in-arms about potentially being replaced, claiming you hadn't realized sooo much time had passed.

Had he been saying this

before

Pine was lynched?

[Whiskers]

I'm gonna go ahead and point it out: we don't

have

two scum caught. What are the chances SV and Pine are scumbuddies (3-vote scumteam) playing with us?
I guess I don't really believe it. Consider this my Note To Self to not eliminate it entirely from the list of possible scenarios.

Junpei, could you join us this game, please?

I can't seem to find anypony attacking Michel, but maybe I didn't go back far enough. Help, please? I'm looking for two attackers.

Ald has said some weird stuff and has been lurking all game. Brundi has had some weird actions and interactions. PoPP seems suddenly very secure and very smart which troubles me, especially when he was under attack early game (still need to look into this). Junpei is a lurker replacing a lurker and should be policy lynched Day 1. SV is

probably

town but I get worried sometimes.
Oh right, CES! Idk what to make of you, CES. What should I make of you? If you were scum, who would YOU nightkill? Maybe moreimportantly, who would you have killed last night?

[Whiskers]

I think there are two more scum (or just SV) because... I don't know. Because it seems that way. I dunno. We're kind of power-heavy on the townside, assuming town-doublevoter, we know that at least one of the mafia was a goon, so either unless there's an amazing, unlynchable bulletproof joat scum, there should be two? I don't know what put it into my head originally. It's a mini, so 12 players... could still come out to 2 scum, right? Except then we have a bunch of weird Power Roles.


next: I haven't read the beginning of the game again. My poor memory has you as sort of a VI early on, which left you open to attack. I have it in my head that you were just kind of running around looking dumb for a while, but now you're making points and cases and stuff. It seems like a change of play and it would make me suspicious, if I were more sure that it is actually a change. Also, if it turns out you play like a VI (or even VE) when you're under fire, but that you make cases when you're not, that's really, REALLY suspicious.

Not sure how you read it as a degree of security. Not exactly sure what that means. But, I ask CES the question because his slot was... who, jee? ace? whomever it was, I have no read on the slot. the player before CES was inactive, CES is inactive, I ask CES specifically because I want a read on him.
I'm not sure what it has to do with how I knock you down-- did I knock you down? I don't really build myself up, I don't know who is scum and more than anything, I'm just talking. I'm saying what I think because better townies will look at it and be able to read me.

Who I would vote? not Ald... although, I considered it. I would vote first Brundi, then CES, I think. Brundi I will explain, and then CES because I'm wary/null on him, and

@CES Why does Brundi look town to you? And where's your analysis? You got called out for sheeping Junpei, and although you say that's not what you're doing, it looks to me like you're stalling on elaborating your thoughts.

this. If there are two more scum, and Brundi is one of them, this is where I go next.
But I didn't ask CES who he would

vote

. I want to know where his nightkill would have gone.

Scrolling around, my bit on Ald may have been in reference to Shattered's 543. But then, I may be looking around for whatever. Ald

has

said some weird stuff-- like fairly recently he posted (again, in my mind) how lazy he's been. And, "he's been lurking all game." Lurking is really pro-scum. I try to stay active and chattering, even if I don't have much useful to say, the idea being that, if I'm scum, the more opportunity town will have to catch me. My scum play is a little more conservative in that regard. Here we go with self-meta, but that's why I do what I do. everyone talking makes it easier to catch them as scum. Lurking makes it harder.

Brundi... There was a weird vote he had earlier. I don't recall on whom. Something like, "here's this Pine wagon" but he comes in and drops a one-liner and votes somepony else. Then, I'm still suspicious of him for Pine having baited him, and attacking him so vehemently. I agree with you, PoPP, Pine

is

one to bus his partners ruthlessly. I know, I've played scum with him.

Anything else? I'm good at answering questions.

[Whiskers]

I'll ISO you.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, okay. The reason I have no memory of you is that you only joined today.
...k.

I've been playing around with my vote all game. Trying to keep off the lynches. I had a vote out for jee when I first replaced in-- I should see if I can find what it was that bugged me about him.

[Whiskers]

. . .although I think I provide more content than, say, SV, CES, or brundibar.

You know what, I'll give you that. As little as I've been paying attention, I think this is true.

Vote: brundibar

I've just got a hunch.

[Whiskers]

^fair enough.

I'm not up to anything, unfortunately. I stopped by because I remembered that I have a game open here. Case against Ald looks good, will be interested to see the counter to it, May not be a thing to lynch Brundibar today since he's replacing out.

[Whiskers]

4) You are saying ICE is scum because he campaigned for a lynch of a townie which a pure post hoc fallacy.

We knew he was town at the time Alduskkel posted that. There's nothing post hoc fallacy about that. Trying to get mislynches is a scum tell (and even if you disagree with this, the relevant question is whether Alduskkel believes it, which is incredibly likely).

Why is 570 so bad, Junpei? Are you bussing?

baaah, I just iso'd Brundi, and I really don't have anything. possible stuff in post 379, but it isn't strong. More likely if there's a case there, ut'll take a whole read through. If I had to make something up, it would be,

-"target" of scumPine's reactiontest. Pine is known to bus his partners.
-not lynching Pine the first day, instead "accidentally" hammering a townie after stating suspicion of Pine (although, to be fair, he also stated suspicion of Aru, which he hammered, and idk, might have been legit accident.)
-inactivity (which, as it turns out, is RL stuff that's bad enough he has to replace out.)

One of the reasons I don't like explaining a hunch, is that it makes me look for clues and information. Then, I find out my suspicions were wrong.
Of course, if I were to do a re-read, I might find SOMETHING, but I'm not up to that. Maybe I'll find something when, instead, I look for connections between Junpei and Ald, because what CES suggests is really interesting to me.

Also, what is "post hoc"?

[Whiskers]

On the whole, not a particularly alignment-relevant post although a pattern of making that type of post would certainly count as a town tell in my book given his level of experience.

what

[Whiskers]

I'm pulling an Ald!

Which is to say, I've read and caught up and we'll see if Jackal lets me back in, but until then:
I'll answer some questions, the first one being the only one I currently remember: No, Sala, my jee vote was not RVS. I had read the game at one point but didn't get to post. When I posted, I remembered feeling not-quite-right about jee, but I couldn't remember what. Not random... but, as there wasn't a wagon on him, I decided it only had as much weight as a random vote, so I made it.

Alright, well.

What are the chances of CES and Junpei? Just asking. I do know a player or two who bus their partners really well and then win-- although, I guess that was an alt when I met her. Him? idk. Seriously! Scum pushed the lynch on their own two-shot dayvig in a nightless game before any shots were fired AND STILL WON.

Recent CES post looks like a threat:

That is my current theory, yes, although

I haven't ruled you out.

What is that you see in Junpei that you wouldn't expect to see from Junpeiscum?

Ok, so im going to take a guess that your main lynches are whiskers and Junpei. How do you suspect me and junpei as scumbuddies when you clearly stated it wasnt possible we were both scum?

He only sees you as scumbuddies if you don't agree with him.

Junpei! What's your gripe with him, CES? he posts and looks good, and really, isn't that all a townie needs? As opposed to you-- NOT posting, and struggling to stay a-float. Because now is the time to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

CESQ! Maybe I'm just an idiot, can I have reads, and explanations?

Also, I'd like to contest your nightkill analysis, which reads: "Whiskers is SO RANDOM that she MUST have RANDOMLY killed AVox."

Alternatively, it could be: "Whiskers wanted to LYNCH ICEninja so she KILLED his main opponent!"
Which... what? Just kill the ninja. Look, I like being tricky and sly, but framing just doesn't work. It hasn't worked for me in the past, and if there's someone I want dead-- I'll just kill that person.

Okay!
Come at me with direct questions. If Jackle-mod will take me back, I'll keep the activity up until the game-- or at least my part in it-- is over.

[Whiskers]

Our Two Scum?

I don't know. while reading catch up, I was kind of feeling CES and you, but I don't know. I'd be willing to

lynch

Cog today. I was targeting Brundibar with nothing but a gut read because a simple ISO (as opposed to a full read-through) didn't get me anything I felt was solid evidence; nothing I could use to prove guiltiness to anypony else.

Which is interesting. I don't know your playstyle, but I'm used to scum just letting the weak case die, rather than picking at the scab. You make me doubt my reads, Salamence.

[Whiskers]

Thanks! And sorry.
__________________

Interesting! Just found out that CES is the replacement FOR jee.

You know what, it looks like I'm scum bussing that player slot pretty hard. Maybe I'm biased from my first-person perspective of myself, but that's what I'd say it looks like.

I wondered what happened to good old jee.
For my future reference: CES replaced jee, Junpei replaced ac1983fan, Whiskers replaces quidagis, and PoPP (after several hilarious typos on my part) has remained the same. Good job original player! Oh yeah, and Salamence replaces Brunibar.


I'm still looking for why I voted jee. It may turn out to have been nothing... as I read around, it seems I

should

have been voting ICE and AVox, since they look really bad on page 9! I think it was nine. I'm not on that page anymore.

[Whiskers]

If i am not mistaken, im willing to bet both scum are on that wagon, so i am willing to not vote whiskers today.

I don't do very well reading into VCA and wagon-analysis. You might be able to do it, but "You weren't on the wagon, I won't vote for you" doesn't feel right to me.

Whiskers, im kinda new here, so i dont really have a playstyle.

Okay then, let me ask: how would you handle it as scum? The same way? Or differently?

Im really doubting a CES/Junpei team, i could be wrong, but if they are a team that pulled a scum vs scum arguement, i would be impressed.

As would I, but... they're both older players. Experienced. With Pine and the head and CES replacing in, that'd already make a really strong scumteam. ...which makes me wonder how we could have caught Pine. We should look for interactions between Pine and living players. I know part of the reason I attacked Brundi was because Pine was attacking him so hard and so stupidly. There was no way his reaction test could succeed (right?), meaning either A, it fails, and Brundi doesn't get lynched, or B, it succeeds (how!?) and Pine get towncred.

Last question: is there anyone alive that may of posted something that could of hinted to killing SV?

It would be better to look for other players AVox was attacking, or maybe even "who else would want to frame ICE?" Who is still alive from then, and what were their reads on ICE? Town reads could be scum laying in wait. I don't think anybody is going to slip and say, "I made the nightkill!" and I don't think SV's kill has any value for analysis. In fact, we were all wondering why he wasn't dead sooner!

THAT might be worth looking into. Why didn't scum kill SV sooner? Why were the other targets better targets? What would make, say, AVox's death more important than SV's?

[Whiskers]

"last day"???
I was going to say, "I'm caught up by the time I post," but I haven't seen ANYTHING about anybody having a "last day!"

There is other stuff from the last page to comment on, but most importantly: Sala, that case is really, really bad. There is nothing to say that Pine ONLY voted for town. Just because we have not confirmed that Pine voted for scum does not mean that we HAVE confirmed that Pine did NOT vote for scum.
If Junpei is scum, then you are wrong and your case is wrong. Even if you are confirmed-to-yourself town, couldn't know Junpei's alignment, so you can not be sure of your case.
If YOU are scum, then you are wrong and your case is wrong. In this scenario, you'd be trying to trick us. Buddying wiht Jun? Gonna kill him tonight?
If you BOTH are scum, wouldn't this be a great way to clean up? I have gut feels that CES is scum, but as I've said before: You're making me doubt my reads.

If you are both town, then your case is correct, but you couldn't possibly know that, since, if you're both town, you don't know each others' alignments.
Unless you're both masons, in which case I think NOW would be the time to claim.
...oh wait, you already did.

...yeaaah....

CES: I don't think I have links. If I've tried it, it was very likely in newbie games, or in some of my first games, which were forum mafia, but not on this site. They were, incidentally, with Pine.

[Whiskers]

okay, wait.
Pine voted me, and not Junpei? First of all, I missed that, second of all, How does that prove Junpei innocent?

Wasn't your whole case "I assume Pine only voted for town-players"? Meaning that the players he voted were town, and the other players might be scum? I thought that was how you cleared Junpei, and why you put me on your "maybe" list.

That was my understanding. Was I mistaken? That's not so much logic as grasping at straws. It would be really weird, I think, for a player to [not vote scum] for the sake of it-- meaning, (if you're even correct that he only voted town,) that it'd be a coincidence. Your case, as I understand it, it PoE, but you're eliminating players by a guess. Not like, "These are the players who AREN'T cleared by the Cop," but "These are the players who AREN'T wearing hats."

[Whiskers]

Half of the people pine voted Day 1 are town, I know I am town, so unless you are claiming scum, you are town. The chances of him voting one scum (You) are very very low. So low, that I can deal with it tomorrow. Seriously I am happy with my vote, the odds are with us.

sorry, for some reason thought this was directed at me, not Jun. Jun is probably town... maybe.

Why is it very low for Pine to have voted for only one scum (plus townies) during the game? Isn't that good play in a 3-scum game, btw? Bus one, buddy one?

@Jun: I was caught up when I posted, but apparently I haven't read (or haven't comprehended) thoroughly enough. (was your V/LA announced in one of your posts, or in one of Jackle's?) Do go ahead and ask, if you have something to ask.

[Whiskers]

Whiskers, do you agree with my vote or do you think Junpei is scum?

How are these mutually exclusive?
I'm going to do some joint ISOs.

...starting with CES (+ jee) + Pecan.


Pine isn't completely unpredictable, and in my experience playing with him,

he does bus weak scumbuddies!

on Myth-Weavers, that'd be me. Here? I'm suggesting Brundi. I guess that's my best idea I've had all game, right or wrong, so I'm clinging to it. Pine is a power player. He busses his buddy hard and either gets a bunch of towncred for them, or towncred for him. The difference is, usually, it's like, "wow pine, amazing how you caught that scumslip!" but in this game it was, "wow, that 'reaction-test' was so fucking bad."
Actually, the reversal where Pine's gimmick DOESN'T succeed is the biggest problem with my idea that Brundibar's slot is scum. Was it a failed bus, or a failed mislynch? I can't tell.

[Whiskers]

It has come to my attention that whichever player's posts you are reading at any given time, that player will seem the scummiest.

I did read all the way back up until CES replaced jee and maybe there were a few places that might lend themselves to a case, but nothing good enough to stick in my mind. I have no idea why I voted for jee, I should have voted for ICE, who looked just simply terrible.

[Whiskers]

Ald hammer was rash and I do hate myself for it, and I am hoping I can make it up here and kill scum.

AtE.

Honestly, using the logic that me and CES were indeed scumbuddies, I would of probably killed you over SV because I see you as leader of town. SV may have double votes, but if I was scum (I'm not) I would hope he would double vote town and then hop on for the win.

WIFOM.

Whiskers, do you agree with my vote or do you think Junpei is scum?

Testing the water for a Junpei lynch?

Junpei, what should I think about your posts? Cautious town or scum protecting his buddy?

Threatening?
Also, didn't you just confirm this guy as town (if only to yourself)?


[Pre-Edit]
couldn't you just kill CES at night? well, not if we lynch you. but look: Junpei will not be around toMorrow to discuss with you, I bet. If we lynch CES (and he flips scum) we go into Night with (assumedly) 3 townies and 1 mafia. Salamence and Whiskers agree that Junpei is probably town, so:
If Pecan is scum, it makes a lot of sense to kill the towniest townie.
If Salamence is scum, she herself has claimed Junpei would be a great kill and would kill Junpei if she were scum.
Is

I

(Whiskers) were scum, I would probably kill Junpei.
Actually, I'd probably kill Salamence, because she's getting on my nerves and Junpei seems to be the townleader right now.
Actually, I don't know. Junpei is a town leader, and not suspicious of me (afaict). Salamence seems like the easiest to lynch (which would be my goal, as scum), but Pecan is low-activity, which equals low-resistance.

What if Junpei were the last mafia? Well, he wouldn't die in the night, I suppose.

Actually, this reminds me of a game where I WAS scum, and nearly won it-- but I was holding onto the conviction that there were three scum in the scumteam (meaning there were TWO scum left) when there were only two (and so, only me). Had the town being all super cautious at fake-LyLo... but somewhere along the way I played martyr-townie and self-hammered (game over, man). Not sure what I was thinking there... but THAT kind of play is why CES is suggesting I'm random enough to have make the AVox kill.

[Whiskers]

Salamence: I don't like going fast. I like taking things slow. I am in the camp that says that if you give me all the information, I will sort it out and make everything right. bishes love that trait mang

No, no, they get mad if you try to fix stuff, you're just supposed to "listen".

but srs - Why vote now instead of in 4 days? I don't see why I should vote early. I doubt I'll change my mind on this but there are other things to worry about.

This, except for me, I work in theoreticals. I figure, any extra time we might have can be used to analyse "all" possible scumteams. In this case, that's Pine + 2/5 players, or possibly Pine + 1/5 players (actually x/4, from each town-player's pov).


As to my other bit: I got suspicious of Pecan again-- but not with anything solid. just a gut dislike of his playstyle, if I understand my brain. I dunno. I can wait, unless it's super-relevant, like you're about to claim mafia or something.

[Whiskers]

Jun, I will say that I do not remember. (btw, you know when CES said, "Whiskers can attest to this, we were in the MLP game that was lost in the crash together"? I don't. I didn't really follow that game after I got lynched.)
I'd love to hear the story though.

No, Salamence. You are neither confirmed scum (if Junpei died in the night), nor am I scum if I make a case on you. In fact, I think Pecan would be just as likely as you to kill Junpei in the night, and I wouldn't entirely rule it out as my scum-play of choice.

Actually, I've decided: It makes the most sense to me to kill Pecan. Salamence is an easy lynch and Junpei is suspicious of her. Pecan, as the least active of the three (or maybe that's just today), would only be dead weight.
Of course, that's from the perspective of scumWhiskers, with townEverypony else.
I do love to play mafia.

But in this game: Junpei is likely the nightkill target, unless someone wants to play WIFOM and try to frame me by killing Pecan, or frame Salamence by killing me (Or I am scum and kill Pecan, and try to get off by WIFOM, or Salamence is actually scum and kills me and tries to get off by WIFOM).
God, my paraphrasing is making it longer, not shorter.
-Junpei will probably die, it could be you or Pecan.
-I am likely to go after you regardless of my alignment.

I agree we should lynch CES. I do not agree we should lynch CES immediately. So, yes, I intend to "help you kill CES" and I intend to "back you up," (AtE?) but let's take our time to think.

[Whiskers]

Well to tell you the truth, im Not liking the newest CES posts, i like the new PoPP posts, and i doubt a whiskers replacement soon.

reCES: What about them did you not like? RePoPP: What about them did you like?

So, today i would probably go for a CES lynch in hopes to stop this brundibar/CES scumbuddy theory. But what bothers me is does CES look more like VI or scummy? Being a noob myself idk if this is reckless or just stupid play from CES. I trust you and i am willing for a CES lynch if you and PoPP are up for it.

Which do YOU think it is? Village Idiot's play, or scum play? You seem to have come to a conclusion, but I don't see how you came to it.

P-Edit: lynching CES would be a good move, if he is scum, it just about proves Junpei is town and hopefully clear me of this "scumbuddies" theory.

I'm going to say right now: I don't know how proving 1/2 of a supposed scumteam is scum clears the other half.

[Whiskers]

"several scum teams."

Actually, that's a good point. Who is willing to confirm Junpei and I [Not Scum Together], on account of there was plenty of time to deliver that hammer? I'm pretty sure it doesn't clear any other pairing, as PoPP isn't online, and Salamence was doing the voting, and Cogito was the one being voted for.

So:
Cogito + Salamence
Cogito + Whiskers
Cogito + Junpei
Cogito + Pecan
Whiskers + Salamence
Whiskers + Pecan
Salamence + Junpei
Salamence + Pecan
Junpei + Pecan.

woohoo, that puts me and jun in only three possible scumteams and CES, Salamence, and Pecan in four each. THAT'S probability, Salam.

[Whiskers]

I guess I should have looked to see who else might have wanted AVox out of the way after all!

And yeah, there's only so much blaming of Salamence I can really do here because I thought it was CES/Salamence for the scumteam (BOTH wrong) and would have voted CES at the end of the Day anyway. But THAT is why you don't leave your vote out like that in LyLo. Especially

without a case...

[Whiskers]

Make a case?
I don't know. I'm not very good at scumhunting myself. At some point I realized my scumplay is much better than my townplay, so I started playing town the same way I play scum: "look good, be in control."

[Whiskers]

but I

HATE

VCA.

I'll try to keep it in mind for my next game.

(ikr!?)

[Whiskers]

Junpei, weren';t you going to tell me something? About how whoever you read is NOT the scummiest? (also, tell me the story about how I did something in that one game I was talking about!)