Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[Pine]

My advanced hyper-telepathy tells me this is a good vote.

Vote: ac1983fan

[Pine]

Michael, I've been harrassed for resisting participation in the RVS phase before, so I don't bother any more. I merely try to move out of it as soon as possible.

The only two games nhammen and I have played together (I think) we were scum together, and won decisive scum victories. That's what I was referring to in the queue thread, and what Ice was referencing. Alas, such is not to be repeated here.

[Pine]

I'm way, way too lazy to succinctly answer that, nham. I've played like forty+ games over the last year, at least, and I'm not going to be trolling through that many.

[Pine]

Quid agis medice - Latin for "What are you doing, Doctor?"

It's also kind of a colloquial way of saying "What's up Doc?" a la Bugs Bunny.

[Pine]

Oh fine, hush you bastards. I absolutely refuse to spend several hours going through 50+ games with a fine-toothed comb to do such a detailed assessment. I will, however, spend two minutes skimming my old bookmarks to find one that fits each category, even though they might not be superlative examples.

Excellent scum game (just finished, perfect win up against 23 other players including another scumteam, SK, and Vig): DC Universe Mafia
Decent Town game (There's a better one that's technically still ongoing, but this one I replaced in and immediately nailed the remaining two scum): Mini 1138
Bad scum game (Absolutely atrocious, got nailed right away for SK hunting on D1): Mini 1156
Bad Town game (LOTS of examples, this one I was all over the map): The Aftermath

[Pine]

Quid agis medice - Latin for "What are you doing, Doctor?"

Well there you go.

I would've preferred if the bunnyman himself popped in to answer that one, but no biggie.

I enjoy showing off. Granted, I had to look up the exact translation, but my Latin isn't rusty enough that the gist of it was lost on me.

Instead, you claim that your random vote had pro-town purpose (of trying to get discussion going). There are more helpful ways you could have voted (even randomly) than voting based on someone's name, so why would you try to claim pro-town credit for doing something that isn't pro-town at all?

This response just strikes me as something scum would be slightly more likely to say than town.

Vote brundibar

, semi serious vote.

Really? You're going to say random voting is scummy? Do you realize that every game opens that way? If random voting is scummy, then I must be hunting all wrong. And... semi serious? That reasoning seems serious, why is the voted only semi?

@nhammen: I don't have that many games on this website to even answer those questions. Sorry.

Not a fan of the defensiveness here. Please link your completed games. You don't have the excuse of "I have too many to count."

[Pine]

Because there's a big difference between me sifting through 50+ games and him linking two or three. Also, the defensiveness was his reaction to being criticized for randomvoting, not his failure to link games. They're different points, though linked.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: brundibar

Not RVS

[Pine]

I have excellent, obvious reasons. Only have a couple of minutes, so can't compose them right now.

[Pine]

That's correct. I

chose

not to. I'll explain soon.

Think, Ice. I'm neither dense enough nor noobish enough to make such a scum blunder as voting without a good reason. Ergo, I have a reason, and will explain it in my own time.

[Pine]

I didn't lie at all. I was in other threads and eating a late lunch for those fifteen minutes. I isn't have time to explicate my reasons, unless I were to ignore other things

[Pine]

I didn't*

Autocorrect

[Pine]

I have my reasons, Michel. I could explain, but it better suits said reasons not to at this point.

When I explain, if you still don't feel my reticence justified, then go ahead and vote me for all I care. This is not a reasonless vote.

[Pine]

- He voted someone
- He said he did this to help create discussion
- You accused him that since he is voting based on a name, that his intentions were not to create discussion.

I give up. Vote me if you want, but you still really have zero reasons for actually accusing me of scum. Sure you have a "reason" (if still confused) for voting me, but it doesn't even point to me being scum.

Alright, I've moved on from this Ice thing. It was what it was but I really don't think it's helping us anymore to keep badgering him about it.

Unvote

VOTE: Pine
Congratulations!

Reaction test failed.

This is why I withheld my reasons - I had none. My observations of 1080 (I had a real-life friend playing in the game, so I read it as it was happening) suggest to me that Brundibar is not that twitchy or reactive when playing Town. His earlier bad reaction to suspicion piqued my interest, so I set this up to see how he'd react to being voted sans explanation. OMGUS and opportunity out of someone who appears to normally not do so = scum.
Whatever you're doing right now, it's not helping town. Hold onto your reasons as long as you want, but if you're not going to say anything, it's not benefiting anyone.

[Pine]

Bah, fucked up the quote tags.

My vote on Brundibar is for real now, no longer a reaction test.

[Pine]

My statement to Ice does not necessitate me being scum. He was calling my gambit scummy, but I'm not so bad as to do something that obvious as scum. Ergo, there has to be some other explanation for it.

Think whatever you like about the reaction test, but your response is too quick to really have independently verified it. Go read 1080 in light of what I said.

[Pine]

Telling you the truth would have completely spoiled the attempt. What was I going to say, "Shh, I'm reaction-testing!"

[Pine]

That's really what I was trying to get at with telling you to

think

. I figured you were experienced to guess that I was going somewhere with it, but you didn't catch my drift.

[Pine]

I actually read 1080, as I have a friend who played in it, the only person I've convinced to join the site, however briefly. Meta pre-existed the test, not the other way around

[Pine]

Actually, that lurking wasn't intentional.

Irrelevant, really. This was genuine, and while it isn't as foolproof as I'd like, it was done in good faith. The piling onto me for shabby, one-dimensional reasons suggest to me that I've stumbled onto the right track.

[Pine]

I really dislike the resistance to Brundibar. It feels like the counter-push was engineered, and that suggests that there might be a scumteam or individual player that's playing pretty heavy-handed.

Thinking it might be nhammen. He's twice now jumped onto the path of least resistance. First with jee, who seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion, and then onto me in the middle of it. That seems very much like the tactics I've seen him use when we were scum together.

Unvote
Vote: nhammen

[Pine]

Pine is, as always, scum.

Vote: Pine

I'm very skeptical of this post. Since SV seems to have previous experience with Pine, and also since Pine seems to be the kind of player to attract attention, parking a (reasonless) vote on him is quite convenient. But with no other posts yet from SV it's hard to judge. For now I'd call it scummy.

I've placed an RVS vote on him in the past with the exact same reasoning. It's an inside joke.

Alduskkel's overeager blitz is coming off as scum trying to prove themselves.

Am I the only one who finds Aldusk's unvote of Pine strange, particularly considering its placement in the context of what he's talking about?

I agree. The reasons stated were weak, and certainly not strong enough to warrant an independent unvote, as the stream-of-consciousness phrasing of the post as a whole suggests. If it were an unvote specifically to go after a stronger scumread, fine, but out by itself like that, it's damn weird.

[Pine]

Unvote without a new place to put it? No me gusta. Have a few scumpoints, mmkay.

[Pine]

Hey, I've been following along, but lack of activity breeds lack of activity.

My points against nhammen stand, and I see Brundibar's urge to jump on any wagon that looks like it's moving moving hasn't dissipated.

[Pine]

Lol, nhammen's overdefensiveness is as good as an outright scumclaim to me. He's not in danger, why's he reacting so aggressively?

[Pine]

I changed my opinion because I knew I'd be harrassed about it if I didn't. Kindly fuck off.

[Pine]

You're not paying attention, are you? I didn't change my opinion about something that mattered, I changed it about whether I'd be answering nhammen's frivolous question about past games.

Again, your desire to take any excuse to jump onto a baseless, easy wagon shines through.

Please lynch this fuck tomorrow.

[Pine]

Also, I don't give two piles of day old shit how I appear, as evidenced by my continued habit of telling my accusers to fuck off and ignoring their asinine questions. I've remained focused on hunting scum, which thus far looks to be you and nhammen, and maybe still brundibar.

[Pine]

Oh, so now you are accusing anyone who finds a fault in you? Great.

Actually, that's pretty much what you did. I accused you before you accused me. Scum are always so eager to push their own faults onto their victims. It's an insecurity thing.

@Pine - & (assuming you are town) how does it help us generally if we think you are scum? Finding scum isn't the only thing that helps the town - not directing their attention onto yourself is necessary too.

It doesn't help us. I haven't done anything to encourage the suspicion of me, and quite frankly, I have found in the past as Town that whenever I try too hard to fight inaccurate suspicion of me, it only deepens it. The only solution is to redouble my efforts. This serves three purposes. First, it is useful for the standard Town wincon. Second, it lets me get all of my opinions, perspectives, and ideas out there, so that when I get confirmed by flip, they are vindicated and can be used as a resource by other Townies, and third, honest effort at scumhunting is the Towniest thing one can do.

So again, fuck off all of you. I'm going to keep doing my thing, and if you mislynch me, the Town can live with that. I'll just be doing the best I can.

[Pine]

Wait a sec, so concentrating wholly on scumhunting is some kind of scumtell now?

Unbelievable.

[Pine]

Oh, so now you are accusing anyone who finds a fault in you? Great.

Actually, that's pretty much what you did. I accused you before you accused me. Scum are always so eager to push their own faults onto their victims. It's an insecurity thing.

When did you accuse me before I accused you?

...Hrm. Apparently I didn't. That part of my statement against you is retracted with apologies. I often read things on my phone when I have only a minute or two to check it, and intend to respond when I sit down to my laptop. Occasionally, I forget to follow through, but retain the thoughts that made me want to post. I recall reading your post 101 and thinking that it sounded phony and really opportunistic.

[Pine]

How, exactly, would you know that nhammen and Arugula is off-track?

As for answering questions, fine. What do you need to know?

[Pine]

Lazy is not anti-Town. Lazy is simply not pro-Town. Stop confusing the concepts.

[Pine]

Besides, if you want to make a case against someone that's lazy, make it against Shattered Viewpoint, AKA Nobody Special. This is his meta, straight up. He lurks on purpose in every game, regardless if he's Town or scum. It has some benefits for him personally, as he doesn't tend to get noticed and thus tends to survive until late game as a null read for most people, but it's remarkably unhelpful. And yet, it isn't distinctly anti-Town, just an annoyingly bad strategy that pisses people off.

[Pine]

Your WIFOM about what Town would or would not do is unappreciated, Michel. Suffice to say that I knew that if I didn't respond after being pressed, that it would become a thing and I'd get pressured needlessly. I just decided to cut out the blustering and concede, because it wasn't a big deal. Apparently I needn't have bothered, as people wanted all along to take my response out of context. Think about it: If I'd blown it off, I'd be criticized for doing so. I answered the question, and I'm getting criticized for it. Double-fault questions are TRAPs. And guessed who devised the trap? Nhammen.

I've been scum with nhammen twice now, both times very successfully. Trust me on this one, he's playing hard to his scum meta, and trying to eliminate his biggest meta threat.

Michel, I'm frequently not lynched or NKed because I tend to get tunnel vision, and scum love that when I'm wrong.

SV, I'm a Tracker.

[Pine]

What part of

Vote: nhammen

confused you? He's practically dripping scum from every pore.

[Pine]

I think PoPP deserves some serious hard looks too. Consider, the wagon on me redoubled in strength just as the PoPP wagon really started up, with both of my lead suspects (nhammen & Arugula) piling on around that time.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Arugula

I can see it's going to take some time to convince you lot of nhammen, but I just cannot see Arugula a possibly Town. Last sentence of 203 is practically a scumslip, but don't have time to go into detail on my phone.

[Pine]

You make a somewhat good point, nhammen, in that I've never (to my recollection) seen you as Town, though the self-preservation in making that point negates any credit gained for it.

As for playing to your scum meta, I am mostly talking about broad impressions of when I teamed with you in TWBBS and NY131. I recall you as mostly lurky, except that you made grand bursts of activity and wallposts asking questions that seemed new but didn't really advance the game, such as "Have you ever played against me as Town," which is a fair point but ultimately irrelevant. I recall you casually moving onto wagons you thought were going somewhere, preferring to get on them early to avoid suspicion. I recall you reacting mildly indignant and somewhat disdainful when suspected.

All of those things describe your play thus far.

[Pine]

I

was

voting for nhammen, dickhead.

Misrepresent the truth much?

[Pine]

Could you be any more scum?

[Pine]

I've given plenty of reasons.

[Pine]

You don't think any more discussion is needed? Your scumreads on me are that strong that you would be willing to lynch me to stop discussion? The more players talk, the more of a possibility there is for scum to slip. The only players that benefit from a quicker lynch are scum.

VOTE: MichelSableheart

Holy crap this is terrible. "Rawrg, I suddenly have a suspicion of MichelSableheart! Who is coincidentally attacking me!"

This is much more succinct than I could have been, but is exactly what I was referring to.

[Pine]

Not liking Alduskkel's cheerleading of the Arugula wagon but not voting for it. Reminds me of the passing doubts I had earlier.

[Pine]

Check your role PM. Most mods include buddies in the initial contact. Otherwise your QT would be helpful

[Pine]

Whiskers, why must you be so scummy? The ridiculous thing is that it doesn't even make you scum, you're the scummiest Townie I've ever played with

[Pine]

^I don't really buy this. I think you're framing an otherwise-ordinary thought process in the worst light possible.

[Pine]

Opportunism for the fail by Arugula.

We can come back to AV tomorrow.

[Pine]

Whiskers, your definition of "buddying" needs recalibration. I've previously stated a Town vibe on ICE, and AV's attack was extremely weak and appears founded on self-preservation. Not every positive statement one makes about another player stems from a desire to win them over.

[Pine]

Neither is an ICE wagon.

Why are you so desperate to avoid an Arugula lynch?

[Pine]

Because you invented confTown Arugula and confscum ICE out of whole cloth. It's fiction. You've completely failed to make either case.

[Pine]

Respond to what? You made an interpretive statement, not a question. Tracker is a weak PR, and a common scum fakeclaim. Add in the fact that were people rabid enough to keep pushing despite the claim (and they did,) I had no assurances of survival. Even claiming full Cop or Doc isn't a guarantee of survival, and you damn well know it. You're a far better player than the bullshit things you've been pulling the last couple of pages, that quote included.

[Pine]

Happy? Not in the slightest. You're making shit up now, AV. I knew there was a serious chance that I'd either be lynched before I could claim or lynched anyway. Tracker is a weak-ass PR, so it's not a big deal to lose it.

[Pine]

I would be too, in his shoes. He's either scum, and not going to get NKed, or an ideal mislynch victim. He only has to worry about Vig/SK or opposing scumteams.

[Pine]

What the fuck are you talking about, Michel? Doublevoter and Tracker are completely unrelated, and don't affect one another in the slightest. As for Cop/Tracker, I've seen it several times lately. I'll pull those games up when I'm not on my phone.

Why would scum go for a claimed power role when no protective role has flipped? They'd be throwing away their kill. Especially given that spending a kill on me would be pointless, a they had to know I'd be immediately wagoner and probably lynched.

Whatever. Jee/CES went nowhere.

[Pine]

Not really. ICE has a Townread. He isn't going out of his way, and you're magnifying every interaction beyond realism.

Both of my main D1 scumreads flipped Town, so I suppose it's back to the drawing board and secondary reads.

Vote: Alduskkel

[Pine]

Thanks for reminding me! I'm on it.

[Pine]

Alduskkel suspicions:

Pine is, as always, scum.

Vote: Pine

I'm very skeptical of this post. Since SV seems to have previous experience with Pine, and also since Pine seems to be the kind of player to attract attention, parking a (reasonless) vote on him is quite convenient. But with no other posts yet from SV it's hard to judge. For now I'd call it scummy.

I've placed an RVS vote on him in the past with the exact same reasoning. It's an inside joke.

Alduskkel's overeager blitz is coming off as scum trying to prove themselves.

Am I the only one who finds Aldusk's unvote of Pine strange, particularly considering its placement in the context of what he's talking about?

I agree. The reasons stated were weak, and certainly not strong enough to warrant an independent unvote, as the stream-of-consciousness phrasing of the post as a whole suggests. If it were an unvote specifically to go after a stronger scumread, fine, but out by itself like that, it's damn weird.

Not liking Alduskkel's cheerleading of the Arugula wagon but not voting for it. Reminds me of the passing doubts I had earlier.

Some of my nhammen suspicions, not going to dredge up all of them, you can ISO me just as easily as I can:

I really dislike the resistance to Brundibar. It feels like the counter-push was engineered, and that suggests that there might be a scumteam or individual player that's playing pretty heavy-handed.

Thinking it might be nhammen. He's twice now jumped onto the path of least resistance. First with jee, who seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion, and then onto me in the middle of it. That seems very much like the tactics I've seen him use when we were scum together.

Unvote
Vote: nhammen

Lol, nhammen's overdefensiveness is as good as an outright scumclaim to me. He's not in danger, why's he reacting so aggressively?

Your WIFOM about what Town would or would not do is unappreciated, Michel. Suffice to say that I knew that if I didn't respond after being pressed, that it would become a thing and I'd get pressured needlessly. I just decided to cut out the blustering and concede, because it wasn't a big deal. Apparently I needn't have bothered, as people wanted all along to take my response out of context. Think about it: If I'd blown it off, I'd be criticized for doing so. I answered the question, and I'm getting criticized for it. Double-fault questions are TRAPs. And guessed who devised the trap? Nhammen.

I've been scum with nhammen twice now, both times very successfully. Trust me on this one, he's playing hard to his scum meta, and trying to eliminate his biggest meta threat.

Michel, I'm frequently not lynched or NKed because I tend to get tunnel vision, and scum love that when I'm wrong.

SV, I'm a Tracker.

[Pine]

Reviewing previous games, I'm finding Tracker + Cop to be fairly rare, but not unheard-of. The specific combination of Cop/Tracker, at least, is only present in a few games I've played in, mostly Large games. However Strong Investigator X (like Cop) + Weak Investigator Y (like Tracker, Watcher, Deputy, [urlor Mason team), is actually surprisingly common, especially when there's multiple scumteams/SK (which is unlikely in our case given one kill) or strong scum power (more likely given Tracker).

In no particular order:
NY 131: Gunsmith, Watcher, Mason, Recruiting Mason, Neighborizer
NY 137: Tracker, Watcher
NY 136: 2 Town Neighbors, Gunsmith, Tracker, Innocent Child
NY 134: TWO full cops

Mini

1159: Cop, Deputy

Mini

1159: 1-shot Cop, Full Tracker, 1-shot Tracker
NY 131: Cop, Mason Lover, Mason Lover, Mason
NY 142: Cop, Deputy, Tracker, Three Masons, and I think some other weak PRs, game partially Tiger-devoured

PE: It was a toss-up between Alduskkel and Brundibar, Whiskers. Brundibar seems fail enough for me to be uncertain about my read, and Alduskkel's actions seemed more calculated. If you're going to find fault with whatever I say, regardless of whether it's relevant,

man

pony up and vote.

PE2: Care to explain, CES? More the Townreads than the scumreads, though if you have something new on ICE or I, feel free.

[Pine]

...Wut?

[Pine]

The case on me is utter nonsense. Scum are masturbating furiously at the prospect of getting a second investigative role out of the way so early in the game.

I'll see you all in hell.

[Pine]

Oh, and for the record, fuckfaces: There is no response one can actually make to a case that consists of nothing more than "X action is scummy." ac1983's case that VE so desperately wants me to "respond to" consists of nothing but. Points 1-3 are simple declarations of "I think this is scummy, but won't say why" and points 4 & 5 are not actually relevant points against me, they're tangentially-related facts. VE is guilty of setting up a "gotcha" trap in demanding a response to that. I refuse, and he'll call me scummy for not answering questions. I accede, and there's nothing to really respond to, so I spin my wheels in the attempt.

Michel, I claimed my results in my first post of the day. CES hasn't contradicted them. That isn't actually proof of my role, but it's damn close, as I'd have taken an unreasonable risk making the declaration blindly.

[Pine]

Eh. I'd mostly been ignoring Ice because he was mostly ignoring me, and I had other suspects. The immediate self-preservation, double-fault trapping, and opportunism puts him on my radar in a big damn way.

[Pine]

VE, you didn't actually

have

any original points to respond to. You rephrased others' points.

Please point out a single appeal to emotion.

Please point out a single appeal to fear.

[Pine]

Whatever, still Town. Add scumpoints to brundibar for that hammer