Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[nhammen]

Those two games as scum were literally my last two games on site. It would be pretty amusing if me and Pine were scum together yet again, but three times in a row would strain beief, and I would have to ask the mod if roles were actually randomly assigned.

Now I usually suck at RVS, but do fairly well once some information arises, so I will try a bit of RQS.

If everyone wouldn't mind answering:
What game do you feel to be your best somewhat recent performance as Town?
What game do you feel to be your worst somewhat recent performance as Town?
Same questions for scum.
Also, I am defining somewhat recent as recent enough that you still have a similar playstyle to the games.

I guess that isn't so random. It is more attempts to see everyone's meta, but oh well.

And since it would be rude of me to ask such a question and not answer it: Town best (I replaced into a scummy slot, and convinced everyone I was Town enough that the scum NKed me night 1), Town worst (Got a Town Roleblocker. Gained suspicion too easily, and didn't take it too well), and I consider all 3 of my games as scum to be pretty good play personally. I guess best scum was this game where the SK killed me because I was too obvtown
Note that I had to go back and read my wiki to decide what my answer is (cuz I haven't played in 11 months), so these answers might not be the same as if I had a better recollection of my games. And I apparently spent 2 hours looking at past games of mine. OK...

[nhammen]

(1)

I'm really not liking nhammens questions. First of all, there is a large number of players who haven't played in a while. That makes his request for somewhat recent games rather worthless.

(2)

Secondly, because mafia can choose which of their games they'll list, the meta read he'll get from the answers is open to manipulation.

(3)

Thirdly, everyone who answers the question is likely to do so in the same way, so the answers to the questions are unlikely to give direct information regarding who's scum in this game.

(4)

Fourthly, answering the question thoroughly takes a LOT of time, time that can't be spent on scumhunting. His questions therefore actively encourage other players to divert energy away from scumhunting.

(5)

Finally, the questions allow him to look like he's participating when he's not actually doing anything.

Unvote

Vote nhammen

FoS Alduskel

(6)

My time is far too precious to waste multiple hours rereading my own games (which is unlikely to help me find scum in this one). All of my games can be found through my wiki page, and the commentary on them has been written by me. That should give you a general idea about which games I feel I played good or badly as both town and scum.

1 -

Which is why I defined recent in terms of playstyle rather than time.

2 -

I had actually thought of that. And when I originally posted this, I thought we would get two pieces of information from it: the players meta, and how they want to manipulate their meta. But that is patently stupid, because to check how they are manipulating it, we have to check against their entire history, which would take faaar too long.

3 -

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that people will generally have the same criteria for their definition of good play and bad play regardless of alignment? If that is what you are saying, doesn't that disagree with your statement 2?

4 -

That is actually a decent point that I had not thought of. But I should have thought of it. Although, it is a better question to ask now rather than later when it would distract even more. But your opinion that it was not a good question to have asked at all is a decent point, as I just said.

5 -

There are multiple ways to try to get out of RVS, and I was trying a different approach, because I couldn't think of a good one. Thinking back on it, I believe my usual tactic was to wagon someone, but I had seen that only after writing up these questions, and so I wanted to see how well this did. It didn't pull us out of RVS in the way I had intended, but it did pull us out of RVS because multiple people have seen scumtells in it. So it did the job, but not the way I thought it would.

6 -

Fair enough. I can understand not wanting to waste time with this. It took me a few hours to look back at my old games.

nhammen, what are you intending to do with all the info you gather from your RQs?

Well, I was hoping to get some useful meta information and hoped to see if what games people chose for themselves might help as an indication of alignment. This information probably wouldn't be very useful at this moment, but could be potentially useful later in the game.

Jee you are obviously confused. I did not vote him because he random voted someone based on their name. I voted him because he tried to look pro-town by claiming that his actions got discussion going. Town wants to get discussion going. Scum wants to look pro-town. By claiming he was trying to get discussion going, he's trying to look pro-town.

Get it now?

So whats your reasoning for the vote on me now?

Ummm... I'm not really seeing why you are pressing this so much. He was asked his reasons and he gave some. Town would say they were to get discussion going, truthfully. Scum would say they were to get discussion going, to look pro-town. Either way it would be the same answer. So how are you gleaning information from this? You said that you believe scum would be more likely to say this than town, but I honestly don't see how that conclusion could be reached.

People who RVS for funny reasons like names, avatars, etc =\= people who RVS for the purpose of moving the game forward.

Ah! I see. You are claiming that there is no intersection between these two sets. I don't think that is true.

Wait, what? How can you make town alignment judgement calls this early in the game? Michel has only posted a total of four posts. Please do not try to direct/mislead everyone's attention.

Actually I agree that Michel is the towniest person right now. His arguments have been very well reasoned and are either from a town perspective or a scum who is acting like a very good town player. Also, are you seriously saying that you don't want people to try to determine alignments yet?

Not answering nhammen's questions. Suck it. And look at my wiki if you really care that much, which I just don't think you do.

Vague handwaving and bonus scumpoints to anyone who answered nhammen's questions. (Extra bonus scumpoints to nhammen for asking.)

First off, is there a reason for the hostility? Secondly, do you have your own arguments for why this gives bonus scumpoints?

I'm not sure how valuable your question is, since we're not going to be able to compare people's metas to anything for another while & it's taking up a lot of space today with information that may not be relevant. Also, if your scum then bringing up your own meta is a great way to introduce your scum & town-tells so you can play against type.

I would argue that it would also take up space if we discussed it when it is relevant. And at that time it would get in the way more, because there would be more informed discussions going on. Also, as far as I know, I seem to be good at faking town as scum. If I have any real scumtells, I don't know them. But you are welcome to check my 3 scum games.

That's correct. I

chose

not to. I'll explain soon.

Think, Ice. I'm neither dense enough nor noobish enough to make such a scum blunder as voting without a good reason. Ergo, I have a reason, and will explain it in my own time.

If you are town, I am going to let you know that hiding info is not pro-town, unless it is PR info, which this can't be yet at this point. So stop. Unless you are scum.


Thank you to those who provided links. I understand that for some of you it may have taken a bit of time. I will read through them at some point today or tomorrow.

Also VOTE: jee because he seems to have gotten a bit nervous about townhunting, which I find mildly scummy.
Also, SV and quid are both parroting Michel's arguments about my questions. Now, agreeing with arguments is well and good (especially when Michel's analysis was so thorough), but it could also be jumping on these suspicions. So I am not going to consider this worthy of any scumpoints at this point in time, but I will note it for later.
Also, I'm looking to see how this Pine stuff unfolds, and he better have a good reason to be hiding his reasons for that vote.

[nhammen]

Still waiting

[nhammen]

@SV: I like the way your thoughts are going. What's your opinion on Alduskel pressuring pine for not answering nhammen's question?

What do you like about his thoughts? Looking at SV's post, it contains a whole lot of nothing. The "scumpoints to anyone who answered nhammen's questions" part has already been said. The rest of the post is pretty empty.

I completely agree.

I believe a vote based on a name is just as random as any other vote that early in the game.

So? No one has talked about how "random" a vote is, only what the intent behind the votes are. And you still haven't explained how anything I've done even comes close to suggesting I'm scum.

- He voted someone
- He said he did this to help create discussion
- You accused him that since he is voting based on a name, that his intentions were not to create discussion.

----

The general consensus is RVS will lead to discussion. I said a vote based on a name is just as random as any other, meaning his vote was a random vote trying to get discussion going; it was exactly what he said his intentions were. I am currently voting for you because of your strong accusation. I do not see anything wrong with what brundibar did. You on the other hand have some weird problem with it... which is why my vote is on you.

I agree with your reasoning for why ICE's vote is bad. I have even stated similar reasoning before. However, do you believe bad play implies scum?

Congratulations!

Reaction test failed.

This is why I withheld my reasons - I had none. My observations of 1080 (I had a real-life friend playing in the game, so I read it as it was happening) suggest to me that Brundibar is not that twitchy or reactive when playing Town. His earlier bad reaction to suspicion piqued my interest, so I set this up to see how he'd react to being voted sans explanation. OMGUS and opportunity out of someone who appears to normally not do so = scum.

That did not appear to be purely an OMGUS vote to me. He stated valid reasons for the vote. Now those reasons had been stated before by other players, but it was still valid reasoning. Also, given that he had already placed an OMGUS vote, that indicates that he is the type of player that does that (OMGUS is a playstyle tell rather than a scumtell). This indicates that you had a pretty good idea of what his reaction would be ahead of time. So its not really a reaction test, its more of a trap. This "reaction test" doesn't fly.

This is a major stretch. I'd presume nhammen starts off most games with similar questions in most games. Getting people to evaluate their own play and to post their results can help the game (for players who choose to use meta that is).

Actually, I was trying something new. It turns out that it didn't work out as I expected it to, and Michel had some very good arguments for why it was not a good play, so I probably wont use this specific technique again.

I also don't like the fact that AurorusVox has contributed nothing to the game except questioning and voting a player for an RVS vote, and ignoring all other discussion.

It is true that too much of AV's content seems to be focused on one player. However I have seen this type of argument before, and can understand his play coming from a town perspective. Different players have different points of view regarding what constitutes enough content and information to place a real vote rather than a random vote.

My statement to Ice does not necessitate me being scum. He was calling my gambit scummy, but I'm not so bad as to do something that obvious as scum. Ergo, there has to be some other explanation for it.

That argument is called too scummy to be scum, and that doesn't fly either.

UNVOTE: jee
VOTE: Pine

[nhammen]

I don't like Pine's recent "reaction test." It seems fishy and half-baked. I also think the post in which I quoted him could be a scumslip - or it could just be not overemphasizing townieness. Either way, it does make a good point about brundi's OMGUS-hopping.

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure how I feel about this situation. Pine actually makes a good point (and if it remains a relevant point I'll read the game to get a feel for what he's saying, in context), but brundibar also makes a good counter argument, as I certainly wouldn't want someone using my first game as meta for my play now. That being said, it was brundibar's last game.

Those are some interesting reactions from both of you. It's almost like you don't want to commit to any opinions.

pine, if you're going to do meta research, please do it well.

The reaction of brundibar to your vote is not interesting, and definately not indicative of scum.

Any reason you didn't respond to this Pine?

nhammen is the only one who seems to make actual accusations, though I would like to see some comments on him on whether he believes pine's behaviour is more likely to come from scum, and why.

It is slightly more likely to come from scum. From brundi's past play, it was fairly likely that he would vote Pine, and Pine could have realized this and been using his "reaction test" intentionally. But it is only slightly more likely, because he does do gambits as Town, and there is little reason to go after brundi, other than him being easy to manipulate in this manner. In fact, if I had realized I would be putting him at L-2 when I made that vote, I might not have done it. Although, I feel strangely comfortable with the placement right now.

Actually, that lurking wasn't intentional.

Irrelevant, really. This was genuine, and while it isn't as foolproof as I'd like, it was done in good faith. The piling onto me for shabby, one-dimensional reasons suggest to me that I've stumbled onto the right track.

What is irrelevant? Why does the fact that people are piling onto you indicate that you have done something right? Personally, if it happened to me, I'd take that as evidence I had played badly. Why do you think the reasons are one-dimensional, and who has done something that we could vote for for reasons that are not "one-dimensional"? And WHY haven't you responded to Michel pointing out how flawed your reaction test is?

Honestly, for the time being there isn't any substance to my RVS. But it is amusing to see Aurorus is going a little bit c-c-crazy.

There are quite a few things I want to say about this. First off, for a while there, AV was focusing exclusively on you, which was bad, but his post #100 fixed that. He still finds you scummy, for his initial reasoning, which I don't agree with. But it is most likely bad play, which is a nulltell. The claim is that there was enough information at the time that you made your random vote that you shouldn't have been making a random vote, but should have instead commented on the existing information. I disagree with this, because different people have different thoughts on what amount of information is necessary to comment on something, so it is just indicative of differing playstyles. I don't want to make the same mistake that AV made, but I think that at this point you should be able to have something more than just a random vote where "there isn't any substance". So I find myself repeating AV's question and asking you why do you still have your random vote out there, rather than a more serious one?

I suggest Aurorus is one of two things:
a) scum trying to tunnel on someone to either convince others that they're scum or he's town or both.
b) an idiot

Or a player who just has a different opinion on how much information is needed to comment on. Why does he have to be scum or dumb? You are using OMGUS logic. Don't do that.

I didn't even realise I was scum, let alone

still

scum.

A little unobservant are we?

Also, VOTE: quidagismedice because I have no idea how to read that name or pronounce it.

FoS: pieceofpecanpie

Do you not feel there is any content at all so far to comment on?

...

Unvote, Vote: pieceofpecanpie

Well Pecan, I've brought your ridiculous vote to the attention of the game.

Why do you still have your RVS placed?

I would like to point out to you that AV never said why pecan's vote is indicative of scum, rather than just bad play (in his opinion). So AV, would you mind telling us why his placing a random vote at that point is scummy? And quid, would you mind explaining the same, since you seem to agree?

Well Pecan, I've brought your ridiculous vote to the attention of the game.

Why do you still have your RVS placed?

I'm also curious as to why there hasn't been any real follow-up with this.

Are you addressing me or Aurorus here?

You've seen my #103 right?

Your #103 didn't really answer the question...

Interesting. Reading everybody in ISO has given me some more solidified reads of people.

Most notably, I looked deeper at pecan and found some weird stuff in there. For example, it was noted that he made an RVS vote after serious discussion had began. Then, I noticed, pecan never actually changed his vote. What REALLY strikes me odd is that pecan puts an FoS on quid, whom his vote is already on, for a ridiculous reason (pointing out where Aurorus called pecan scummy instead of letting Aurorus do it).

Either pecan doesn't have a clue where his vote is, or he's "confirming" his completely random vote for a completely baseless reason.

There's lots of pretend scum hunting here. I don't like it.

Unvote, vote pieceofpecanpie

. Pine, I'm still watching you.

Goodposting.

I really dislike the resistance to Brundibar. It feels like the counter-push was engineered, and that suggests that there might be a scumteam or individual player that's playing pretty heavy-handed.

Thinking it might be nhammen. He's twice now jumped onto the path of least resistance. First with jee, who seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion, and then onto me in the middle of it. That seems very much like the tactics I've seen him use when we were scum together.

Unvote
Vote: nhammen

You feel that this counter-push is engineered... What about the wagon looked "engineered" as opposed to real? And then you say it is engineered by the last vote on you? Ummm... I'm sure that makes sense... [/sarcasm]
jee "seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion"? That's news to me! Could you explain why you feel that way? Also, could you provide an example of the behavior you are referring to here? Or is it just vague, "it looks like how he acts as scum"?

[nhammen]

Ah. I see. Although I think pecan's point (if he had one) was that AV had not actually said that it was scummy anywhere. He just said "Do you not feel there is any content at all so far to comment on?" and voted.

[nhammen]

It is slightly more likely to come from scum. From brundi's past play, it was fairly likely that he would vote Pine, and Pine could have realized this and been using his "reaction test" intentionally. But it is only slightly more likely, because he does do gambits as Town, and there is little reason to go after brundi, other than him being easy to manipulate in this manner. In fact, if I had realized I would be putting him at L-2 when I made that vote, I might not have done it. Although, I feel strangely comfortable with the placement right now.

Care to elaborate? That last sentence has me going "???"

There are a couple of reasons for this statement. First of all, although I might not have been comfortable putting an L-2 vote on Pine, once the vote was there I could not think of another player I would feel comfortable moving my vote onto enough to take my vote off of Pine. Secondly, multiple people had brought points against Pine, or points that they wanted Pine to respond to, and he had not responded to any of them at the time I made that post. AND HE STILL HAS NOT RESPONDED! Thus, I am very happy with the placement of my vote.

It seems to me that there is an interesting connection between Arugula and Quidagis. In post #101 by Arugual, he lists his opinions on all players in the game. In this list, his (lack of) opinion on Quidagis stands out to me, because he has managed to form an opinion on all other players who had posted a reasonable amount at that time. Similary, Quidagis opinion on Aragula in his post #124 stand out as surprisingly positive when he is arguing back and forth over most other players.

I noticed a few similarities as well, but there are too many possible explanations for this at this time to make any alignment judgements, in my opinion. Arugula's post seemed to be a replacing in reread post (although there wasn't much that needed rereading). I did briefly consider the possibility that quid could be sort of copying the idea as a way to lay low, but there are to many other explanations at this point to say that with any real probability.

Michel (yes, I'm finally spelling your name correctly, town points for me right??) the big thing about PoPP is that he threw out a FoS while having a random vote out. Obviously if town has a legitimate suspicion on a player who doesn't exactly have a wagon on them would want to vote them, right?

Because of his wording of FoS on someone he had a random vote on, I don't believe he would have voted if his RVS vote was elsewhere. Otherwise he would have said something to the effect of "my vote is serious now" or "I'm happy where my vote is" or "confirm vote" etc., FoS typically implies new suspicion.

It's just weird is all, and I feel like town would have committed a little stronger to the case than scum, considering the alternate was a completely random vote.

At first I didn't have a problem with him holding onto hs RVS for so long, because there are some players that need a higher threshold of content to make a serious vote, but I have begun to wonder just how much content he needs. I honestly don't know what to make of it. Michel raises a good point that both Town and Scum have reasons to vote, so this is Null.

Hey, I've been following along, but lack of activity breeds lack of activity.

My points against nhammen stand, and I see Brundibar's urge to jump on any wagon that looks like it's moving moving hasn't dissipated.

What points against me? Did you see my post where I asked what the heck you were talking about? Have you seen anybody's posts, cuz you seem to be just posting nonsense and NOT REPLYING TO PEOPLE.

[nhammen]

I'm reacting aggressively because you are
refusing.
to.
cooperate.
with.
the town!

HOLY CRAP!

Do you need me to go back and quote things that you should have responded to by now? If you can't go back and look for yourself, I can make a post consisting entirely of quotes of things that need your reply.


On another note: none of ac1983fan, pecan, or SV have placed a non-RVS vote yet. I would like each of them to answer why that is. Note that pecan has been asked this at least twice before, and has yet to answer!


I will now go play Skyrim, because I am becoming too aggravated by non-responsiveness.

[nhammen]

Also, I don't give two piles of day old shit how I appear, as evidenced by my continued habit of telling my accusers to fuck off and ignoring their asinine questions. I've remained focused on hunting scum, which thus far looks to be you and nhammen, and maybe still brundibar.

A few notes on this.
A) Your "scumhunting" has been terribad. You have essentially been saying x, y, and maybe z are scum, but not giving any good reasons for this.
B) Some of the questions you have been ignoring are asking you to give more details on this "scumhunting" of yours. If you really were scumhunting, you would have at least answered these questions.
C) Ignoring questions is anti-town, because it prevents other players from scumhunting.
D) Telling other players to "f*** off" is rude and not conductive to mafia play (but not indicative of any alignment).

On the topic of semantics, I believe I've been asked continuously why I had a RVS down, not why I don't have a serious vote down. I believe you're the first in that regard.

I've said multiple times now that I need to throw a bit of thought towards other players beyond AV, which goes some way towards why I haven't voted yet. Another motive is that I don't tend to be hasty with my serious votes.

I'm not sure about the Pine wagon at this stage, maybe there's some truth to scum being on there initially when it seemed opportunistic to do so. One of those is SV who is either active lurking or given up, which makes for bad town or scum as far as I'm concerned. In terms of others on the wagon it is unfortunate that Brundibar was the choice for the vote-baiting experiment, since he seems happy to join wagons while giving little insight into why. It may have looked more suspect if he just hopped on with no provocation. Since now the wagon on Pine is gaining momentum I find it interesting that Brundibar has hopped off.

As for Pine himself, well I don't want to give him too much town credit because of suspect wagons, but I do feel looking at the possible discrepancies will help town no matter where the votes end up.

That is sematics alright. But as to your answer: So essentially you don't feel confident enough with any of the suspects to actually place a vote. I remember when I was new to this game that was comon for me as well. But your vote applies pressure and gives us information. Without it we cannot read you or others as well as we would like to. Also, this behavior can be considered waffling or fence-sitting.

I changed my opinion because I knew I'd be harrassed about it if I didn't. Kindly fuck off.

HMM. Who benefits from this kind of mindset, town or scum?

Yeah I don't like Pine right now but he's dropping Pine tells moreso than scum tells, but his mindset right now is definitely benefiting scum more than town. PoPP is definitely where votes should be going right now (though I don't mind a Pine dueling wagon at all).

Waffling

When did you accuse me before I accused you?

...Hrm. Apparently I didn't. That part of my statement against you is retracted with apologies. I often read things on my phone when I have only a minute or two to check it, and intend to respond when I sit down to my laptop. Occasionally, I forget to follow through, but retain the thoughts that made me want to post. I recall reading your post 101 and thinking that it sounded phony and really opportunistic.

Oh Em Gee! Pine responded to a question regarding his scumhunting!!
By the way, this is not the first time you have made a claim that you felt indicated someone else was scum, but were wrong about the claim. Why is it that you have thrown multiple erroneous statements at people?

As for answering questions, fine. What do you need to know?

I will provide that in a few hours. It wont take long, but I will be leaving shortly.

By the way, people who have played with Pine, would you say his behavior right now is typical?

I've only played with him when he was scum that I can remember, so I couldn't answer this really.

Michel's defense in post 146 is actually rather convincing. Though I'm still rather skeptical of the use of the word "scumpotential."

Defense? He was simply pointing out his playstyle. Being honest about your game history =\= defense. I'm going to remember this if one of you flip scum.

Eh. This is semantics. Michel was defending against Ald's accusation by showing how it fits in with his playstyle.

Your WIFOM about what Town would or would not do is unappreciated, Michel. Suffice to say that I knew that if I didn't respond after being pressed, that it would become a thing and I'd get pressured needlessly. I just decided to cut out the blustering and concede, because it wasn't a big deal. Apparently I needn't have bothered, as people wanted all along to take my response out of context. Think about it: If I'd blown it off, I'd be criticized for doing so. I answered the question, and I'm getting criticized for it. Double-fault questions are TRAPs. And guessed who devised the trap? Nhammen.

Honestly, I was kinda surprised when Ald asked you to answer my questions. I was perfectly understanding of anybody that refused (which might be another reason I shouldn't have asked). And I don't see how this was a trap, considering that we aren't attacking anybody else about answering or not. In fact the reason Michel suspects you for this is that you only answered because you were worried about being pressed (when only one person had pressed you).

I've been scum with nhammen twice now, both times very successfully. Trust me on this one, he's playing hard to his scum meta, and trying to eliminate his biggest meta threat.

I'd like you to cite examples of how I am playing to my scum meta. I've asked before, and you haven't responded. Also, have you played with me as town? I can't remember.

SV, I'm a Tracker.

Well, I still think you are scum. While lynching a PR on D1 is bad mojo, I remember in Mayor Mafia (which was modded by Michel btw) I unvoted a player that claimed Cop, even though I though he was very scummy, because I didn't want to let a PR die on D1, and that player turned out to be mafia. I don't want to make the same mistake twice.

Waiting for a CC.

This has definitely been some interesting activity, and I apologize for not being as active. All the good stuff seems to happen when I'm asleep. Will post more after seeing if a CC comes.

Asking for a counter claim on D1? A

fos

on both your player slots. A CC should happen on a later day if there is one.

Alright, I'm really at a loss for words. I don't have time to do a detailed analysis of all the players in the game right now, but I owe this game one.
However, I will

vote:pine

for the time being, because
1) I think his "I wouldn't make a scum blunder" is scumslippy
2) His reaction test seems like a half-baked attempt to appear town rather than actually be town
3) Every post on page 7 just screams scum. He basically says a) it's the fault of other players being inactive for his own activity, b) that he's not answering questions directly asked to him because that would distract from his scumhunting (what scumhunting??) and c) for everyone voting/questioning him to "fuck off." Like really? Regardless of if that's a scumtell (which I think it is, why would a town player tell other players to "fuck off") it's immature.
4) After his claim he went from being at L-1 to L-4.
5) Deadline is less than a week away and I seem to have made an error in calculating the deadline time in my earlier post.

Agree with this post. Also, voting for a player that just claimed can be very useful to the rest of us. If we get Pine's flip, remember this, because this could be very indicative of ac1983fan's alignment.

What part of

Vote: nhammen

confused you? He's practically dripping scum from every pore.

Again: citation needed.

Why not? I don't want someone to say "Oh, I don't believe his claim. Hammer." That happened to me as a doctor before. Also, asking for a counterclaim is not scummy. If someone CC's, we lynch Pine. If Pine turns out tracker, we lynch the person who CC'd. It's a win-win for catching at least one scum.

We don't know that there's only one tracker though. If someonelse claimed tracker, there could just be two.

Pre-emptive defense against a counter claim? Well hello there. On the one hand, this suggests to me a Pine/brundi scumteam. On the other, brundi was the target of Pine terribad "reaction test", which would seem to counter that. Curiouser and curiouser.



Note to self for later:
Find quotes for Pine
Reread Mayor Mafia D1 near fakeclaim

[nhammen]

As for playing to your scum meta, I am mostly talking about broad impressions of when I teamed with you in TWBBS and NY131. I recall you as mostly lurky, except that you made grand bursts of activity and wallposts asking questions that seemed new but didn't really advance the game, such as "Have you ever played against me as Town," which is a fair point but ultimately irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant at all. That seems to be my playstyle in all my games. Check the two Town games I linked earlier, and you see the same thing. Obviously I am disagreeing with the don't advance the game part.

I recall you casually moving onto wagons you thought were going somewhere, preferring to get on them early to avoid suspicion.

I'm not sure if I did this in those games. I haven't read my scum meta too much, so I would have to check that, and I'm kinda busy at the moment. But I do have to disagree and state that this is not what I'm doing in this game.

I recall you reacting mildly indignant and somewhat disdainful when suspected.

I can say that I can think of multiple games in which I have gotten annoyed with players throwing baseless accusations my way and not answering questions as Town, but since I know about that, it could just as easily be playing to my Town meta. And if I do it as scum as well, as you claim, then I do it regardless of alignment, and it is a playstyle tell anyways.

Thank you for responding though. This was one of my biggest complaints about you. Now I can state that the first and third of your points regarding my "scum meta" are invalid. The second one, could be considered valid if you believe that is what I am doing.

If it was OMGUS, I would have voted for him immediately. The last comment is what made me think he is scum.

OMGUS isn't always immediate. Your vote very much was OMGUS, and Michel even adds reasons for why it makes no sense.

[nhammen]

Honestly, I was kinda surprised when Ald asked you [Pine] to answer my questions. I was perfectly understanding of anybody that refused (which might be another reason I shouldn't have asked). And I don't see how this was a trap, considering that we aren't attacking anybody else about answering or not. In fact the reason Michel suspects you for this is that you only answered because you were worried about being pressed (when only one person had pressed you).

I have a bad gut feeling about this quote. Something about nhammen all of a sudden revealing that he was surprised by my actions. He didn't act that way at the time, IIRC.

I don't believe I responded to your pressuring Pine at all. I didn't feel it was at all indicative of alignment, so I didn't see any reason to mention it.

[nhammen]

I did promise to post quotes for Pine, so...

Questions and comments that I feel Pine should have responded to but did not:

First of all, 1080 was over a year ago. I don't think you can predict my playing style from my first and only game on-site. If you had a larger sample size and I had more games online, this might be a useful test. Secondly, a lot of other stuff happened since you first voted me with no reason. I had plenty of time to vote you then, but wanted to see if you'd actually end up contributing anything useful. My vote wasn't an OMGUS, it was a "whatever he's doing, it's not helping the town" reaction. This seems like an elaborate explanation of something that doesn't really make sense.

pine, if you're going to do meta research, please do it well.

The reaction of brundibar to your vote is not interesting, and definately not indicative of scum.
A reaction that would have been interesting to see was jee's, but that opportunity is gone now.

Actually, that lurking wasn't intentional.

Irrelevant, really. This was genuine, and while it isn't as foolproof as I'd like, it was done in good faith. The piling onto me for shabby, one-dimensional reasons suggest to me that I've stumbled onto the right track.

What is irrelevant? Why does the fact that people are piling onto you indicate that you have done something right? Personally, if it happened to me, I'd take that as evidence I had played badly.

Why do you think the reasons are one-dimensional,

and who has done something that we could vote for for reasons that are not "one-dimensional"?

And WHY haven't you responded to Michel pointing out how flawed your reaction test is?

I really dislike the resistance to Brundibar. It feels like the counter-push was engineered, and that suggests that there might be a scumteam or individual player that's playing pretty heavy-handed.

Thinking it might be nhammen. He's twice now jumped onto the path of least resistance. First with jee, who seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion, and then onto me in the middle of it. That seems very much like the tactics I've seen him use when we were scum together.

Unvote
Vote: nhammen

You feel that this counter-push is engineered... What about the wagon looked "engineered" as opposed to real? And then you say it is engineered by the last vote on you? Ummm... I'm sure that makes sense... [/sarcasm]
jee "seemed like he was going to be the early wagon that garnered a lot of suspicion"? That's news to me! Could you explain why you feel that way?

Also, could you provide an example of the behavior you are referring to here? Or is it just vague, "it looks like how he acts as scum"?

I hav struck out questions that you have answered or I do not feel are relevant.

[nhammen]

Wait a sec, so concentrating wholly on scumhunting is some kind of scumtell now?

Unbelievable.

You are not concentrating on scumhunting, you are concentrating on telling people off.

Exactly! He isn't scumhunting at all. His "scumhunting" is ENTIRELY fake.

For those who aren't aware: 3 days to deadline, when we'll need 7 votes on a single player to avoid no lynch. jee, PoPP, Alduskkel, Arugula, it's definately time to start voting someone. @everyone else: time to make sure that you actually start voting someone you want to see lynched. Short cases would be appreciated.

Short case against Pine. OK. He hasn't really done much real scumhunting in this game. Almost all (if not all) of it has been baseless and in my opinion completely fake. He spent half the day refusing to respond to anybody else with anything other than derision, and when asked to back up his "scumhunting" with facts, he refused to do so in all except for one instance. I believe this is because it is fake, and so doesn't have facts to back it up.

My case against Arugula has been presented in #202:

I believe Arugula would be a better lynch candidate for today. His interactions with the recent pine wagon feel scummy. His vote feels rather opportunistic, his asking for a counterclaim while unvoting doesn't feel good either. His lynch would give us information on quidagis plus an interesting interaction with nhammen from #161. Besides, he is one of the few players I would be happy to see lynched at the moment. For most, I feel myself going "meh, that's not really a good lynch for today".

Some parts of your case, such as the asking for a counterclaim, I agree with. But I don't see his getting on the Pine wagon as scummy as you do. So I'm not as sold on this case as I am on Pine.

Pines tracker claim leaves a strange taste. On p7 he was acting as though he was the lynch today and fine with it ("lynch this guy tomorrow" and "if you want to mislynch me fine") but surely if he is really a tracker, he'd forsee that people would back off his lynch, or at least play as though he wanted to make the night phase.

Very good point.

Yeah algu is scum on p9. When ms calls the wassupdoc/algu interaction a scumtell, algu tells him it doesn't mean anything. That's scummy as hell.

I don't find this as scummy as you do.

Will look into potential pine-algu connections. It's interesting that ms doesn't vote nhammen because of pine and pine then votes the person ms is voting. Most interesting indeed.

Also, could you explain what you mean by interesting?

unvote, unvote

In reading Arugula, it's awfully fishy how he starts out saying Michel is SO VERY PROTOWN OH YEAH and then, a little bit later, Michel is EVIL EVIL SCUM (complete with vote) and then, after a tiny post, Michel is OMG EPITOME OF TOWNINESS again.

It just reads as though someone's not paying close enough attention. Plus that early list of total complete reads (scum do that to seem town a lot of the time).

As with the rest of the Arugala case, there are parts I agree with and parts I do not. Although at this point, I am becoming somewhat convinced that he isnt all that scummy. The wishy-washy-ness on Michel could be scum, but seems to be more unconfident town. Why is not paying attention a scumtell? That seems to be laziness regardless of alignment to me. My mind keeps coming back to that list of reads, but I have no idea what to make of it.

You already voted for him. How can you hammer him? Unless you're a double voter too.

I've never fake hammered, but I've also never called attention to someone who does...

fos

If he is scum, his reaction could have been useful.

However, I want to be on record that I have my doubts about AV's sincerity. The only point I made against Arugula on page 5 was in post #116, but I'll need some explanation on how that's a scumtell by Arugula. When I made the post, I considered it a strange inconsistency, not a strong scumtell. Noone else followed up on it. If Aurorus really didn't know that Arugula was under pressure, I think it's highly unlikely that he would have picked out that post of mine as a reason to vote when he wasn't caught up yet. I find it far more likely that he read page 10, noticed the pressure on Arugula, and during his reread was on the lookout for things to vote Arugula on.

Hmmm... I will have to reread AV to take a look at a few things of his.

[nhammen]

I am willing to vote ICE for a number of reasons, among which are his connections to Pine, and his repeated waffling on certain issues. I can explain more later, but I have a feeling that this post I am about to write will take quite a bit of time, cuz there were 3 pages in the past 2 days.

I would still prefer Pine over ICE though (after all, one of my reasons was ICE's connection to Pine, which is quite weak reasoning until Pine flips).

Anyways, will probably spend parts of the next few hours writing a post.

[nhammen]

However, I want to be on record that I have my doubts about AV's sincerity.

My eyebrows went up when he just revoted as a "hammer". Did not like. At all.

Really? Why did you not like that?

I don't think you actually

know

why, and that's the reason I asked you to restate.
Your failure to do so does not look good.

But why would you push that line of thought without understanding it?

...Alguru is town, isn't he, ICE?

Unvote; Vote: ICEninja

I can see this reasoning, because it did take quite some time for ICE to state it in his own words rather than just say I agree with Michel. But sometimes "I agree" is the best way to succinctly say something, so this isn't worth very many scumpoints. I definitely don't see it as enough to vote him on its own.

And, for all my bashing on Pine, I've decided that it's in my best interest to buddy buddy up to him as much as possible. This kind of player likes for other players to bathe in grease so he can just slide around in them.

Do you believe it is protown to do this? Instead of giving your actual views you want to buddy up to a player to prevent his suspision from falling on you? If he is scum, doesn't that mean that you have begun supporting scum?

I'd kind of like to see what Arugula flips, since if it's town then ICE seems likely scum.

If it's scum however, then the Quid/Whiskers slot is a scumbuddy suspect. Whiskers' reassurance that Arugula is town has been noted.

For the first thing, yes it does mean ICE is slightly more likely to be scum. And surprisingly, if Arugula is scum, then ICE is less likely to be scum. In my opinion anyways. My reasoning is a bit WIFOMy though.

I don't quite have the same view as you do regarding quid/whiskers, since I also believe Arugula is town.

Dr. Pecan, what about Argh! flipping town makes ICE scum? Accordng to everyone else, that' supposed to make AVox scum, right? .__.

If everybody else is Michel and ICE. And I am of the view that I assume Pecan shares, that ICEs wllingness to jump on Michel's reasoning may be cuz he is scum and knows Arugula is town. But that could only be true if Arugula is town.

I don't think you actually know why, and that's the reason I asked you to restate.
Your failure to do so does not look good.

That's pretty pathetic. If you can't go back and read post 268 and my comment 2 posts later, clearly indicating that I understand the point he made, with both posts made on the previous page, when I clearly told you to go read them again...sigh. Bad vote is bad.

Ummm this just shows you saying that you agree with Michel, without indicating any understanding of the reasoning. However your next post (finally) indicates understanding of the reasoning. The fact that it took so long may be something, but I'm not sure.

But this really confused me:

And, for all my bashing on Pine, I've decided that it's in my best interest to buddy buddy up to him as much as possible.

ICE buddying with Pine all throughout the game? Noted.

These were consecutive posts, by the way.

Hmmm... interesting. Are you intentionally buddying Pine?

If Aru flips town, then the point Michel brought up is a very good one and should be analyzed in depth.

What does this mean?

Michel was the one who brought up the observation, not me. I simply said "yeah, you're right, if Aru flips town I'm going to look at AV tomorrow". AV then attacked me hard, despite Michel having been the one to make the accusation.

Umm yeah. That is exactly the reason he is claiming. He isn't claiming the logic is bad. He is claiming that you jumping on this without even indicating that you actually thought about it is extremely scummy. And it is kinda scummy.

I do, however, want to draw everyone's attention to this quote:

I'm going to check this in context during N1. If this wagon is indeed on a townie, and this points true

, then I know where my radar will lead me to at the start of day 2.

I didn't say I would automatically give AV scum points should Aru flip town, I said I will go and investigate the point should Aru flip town.

Whoa whoa whoa! I want you to be very clear on what you are saying here, cuz this looked HELLISHLY scummy to me. To me, it looks like you are saying that AV was right when he said you didn't understand Michel's case.

Thinking about the possibility of two double voters has made me think a bit about potential setups. Double voter is an eye catching role, something to build around. A tracker doesn't really interact well with the doublevoter, though. This makes it less likely that there's a tracker in the game. I still believe an Arugula lynch is better, but I would be willing to put L-1 or hammer on pine if the wagon gains enough traction.

Even more reasons why Pine's claim looks like crap!



---- At top of page 14 ----

[nhammen]

I am willing to vote ICE for a number of reasons,

among which are his connections to Pine

, and his repeated waffling on certain issues.

Oh OK so it's totally fine to lynch someone on day 1 because of associative tells. OH WAIT.

Sure you seem to have other points as well, but seriously.

I believe I specifically mentioned this as a reason I would rather have a Pine lynch. Didn't I? Let me look back. O haayyy! I did! Would you look at that?

Pines tracker claim leaves a strange taste. On p7 he was acting as though he was the lynch today and fine with it ("lynch this guy tomorrow" and "if you want to mislynch me fine") but surely if he is really a tracker, he'd forsee that people would back off his lynch, or at least play as though he wanted to make the night phase.

Respond to this please.

Respond to what? You made an interpretive statement, not a question. Tracker is a weak PR, and a common scum fakeclaim. Add in the fact that were people rabid enough to keep pushing despite the claim (and they did,) I had no assurances of survival. Even claiming full Cop or Doc isn't a guarantee of survival, and you damn well know it. You're a far better player than the bullshit things you've been pulling the last couple of pages, that quote included.

That is not a response to the question that was asked at all.

Happy? Not in the slightest. You're making shit up now, AV. I knew there was a serious chance that I'd either be lynched before I could claim or lynched anyway. Tracker is a weak-ass PR, so it's not a big deal to lose it.

Hmmm... you knew that there was a serious chance you would be lynched before you could claim, but you said "if you want to mislynch me fine"? As a PR, no matter how weak you believe it to be? Not buying it.

@Mod

is there a CES-replacing-in-extension?

If he requests one then maybe. As of right now deadline remains as currently stated.

CES, could you request this please, if you are town?

I still, frankly, am in support of a Pine lynch. His behavior has not gotten anymore pro-town. And if we don't lynch him day 1, then lynching him later will invoke too much WIFOM (did he survive the night because he is scum? Or because he is scummy enough to deflect attention from the true scum?).
Alu is probably town. AV may be a good secondary lynch but I'm not really that confident about anyone except Pine.

Yes! Let us lynch Pine. Please! He is so obvscum.

I want to give possible tracker-Pine at least one chance to use his ability.

I would be too, in his shoes. He's either scum, and not going to get NKed, or an ideal mislynch victim. He only has to worry about Vig/SK or opposing scumteams.

Wow! Speaking of associative tells!

If Arugula flips town and I find there are reasons to vote AV because of that, then I'll include it in my (already fairly substantial) case against AV. If not, I'll probably vote AV anyway.

Don't worry, either I'm going to have a strong case against AV tomorrow or I won't vote him. There won't be any in between.

Ummm, you do realize you said these two things in the same post, right?

You have a substantial case on AVox? If we're already divided, and he's one of the candidates for lynch, you're not really dividing town FURTHER, instead, make a case for best scum and we'll lynch best scum.

I agree here. Let's hear you substantial case ICE. Didn't we ALREADY have this discussion with Pine? Hiding information from the town is ANTI-TOWN.

Michel:
Your second point it the only one that really holds.
The first one is true whether we wait or not. Whoever posts a case on Day 2 is going to keep any other cases from being made, because people are lazy and generally suck. Just like a case made today would keep other cases from being made on Day 2.

Your third one is missing the point of making two separate scenarios: one where the player is scum, one where the player is town. You don't go "well, gee, what if that player is actually town though?!" when making the scumcase for her-- if that feeling is that strong, you include it in your town-scenario.

Took the words right out of my mouth. And I don't think that the second reason is reason enough to hide information from the town.

[nhammen]

I am willing to vote ICE for a number of reasons,

among which are his connections to Pine

, and his repeated waffling on certain issues.

Oh OK so it's totally fine to lynch someone on day 1 because of associative tells. OH WAIT.

Sure you seem to have other points as well, but seriously.

Ummm, just had a thought. Do you agree that there are associative tells between yourself and Pine? Cuz you didn't argue against that at all. You just said that the tells are not a good reason to lynch someone on D1.

[nhammen]

In that line of thought, I would like to ask the ICE lynch supporters if they believe Pine is scummy, and if they believe there are connections between Pine and ICE. Cuz if both answers are yes, then they can vote Pine today, and look at ICE tomorrow.

[nhammen]

Whiskers, your definition of "buddying" needs recalibration. I've previously stated a Town vibe on ICE

No you didn't. I just isoed you and you never stated a town vibe on ICE until now.

[nhammen]

NOOOOOO!!!
Not N1! I could have been so useful...

[nhammen]

VOTE COUNT 2.FINAL
AKA the "Hammer Time!" votecount.

ac1983fan (0) -
Shattered Viewpoint (0) -
Alduskkel (1) - Pine
pieceofpecanpie (0) -
Cogito Ergo Sum (0) -
MichelSableheart (0) -
AurorusVox (0) -
Whiskers (0) -
VisceraEyes (3) - AurorusVox, Whiskers, pieceofpecanpie

LYNCHED

Pine (6) - MichelSableheart, ac1983fan, Cogito Ergo Sum, VisceraEyes, Shattered Viewpoint, brundibar
brundibar (0) -

Not Voting: Alduskkel

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

As of Post #460, Pine was lynched. He was a

Mafia Goon

Night 2 begins now. Deadline is Friday, June 22 at 5:15pm PDT or in (expired on 2012-06-22 17:15:00)

Pay closer attention to these kind of votecounts. If someone flips scum, unless the scum team is extremely bussy, there will be scum on someone elses wagon. When AV flipped town, I was sitting in the dead thread begging for someone to notice this votecount because it means either pecan or Whiskers is scum, and I was leaning pecan anyways. Michel noticed it in his last post before VEyes quickhammered, and nobody remembered it.

[nhammen]

But to be honest, Junpei had me convinced he was town, so good job there.