Mini 1341 - Game Over!

[ICEninja]

Pine only joined this game to be scum with Nhammen.

Vote Pine

. Lynch Pine now, and Nhammen tomorrow when he flips scum.

[ICEninja]

I know quite a few of you, which is awesome. Shattered, pecan, Pine, Nhammen, and Vox I've all played with, and Michael was one of the power players in the first game I read that got me interested in playing here way back in '10 (your play in that game actually significantly shaped my early development as a player, thought you aught to know that).

This should be a fun game!

[ICEninja]

Michael, I was referring to this post in the queue thread.

I actually dislike random votes so

unvote

, I mostly did it because I felt clever.

Just trying to get discussion going. A lot of talking with no voting seems ineffective.

While I agree with this, explain to me how voting for someone based on their name generates discussion. I mean sure, if it was a random vote because of shits 'n giggles, great, that's fine. Lots of players enjoy doing that regardless of alignment and it's just for amusement.

Instead, you claim that your random vote had pro-town purpose (of trying to get discussion going). There are more helpful ways you could have voted (even randomly) than voting based on someone's name, so why would you try to claim pro-town credit for doing something that isn't pro-town at all?

This response just strikes me as something scum would be slightly more likely to say than town.

Vote brundibar

, semi serious vote.

[ICEninja]

Exactly, as you two will bow your heads in defeat this time!

[ICEninja]

I know the game just started today, but I sincerely hope the activity level present in the opening hours of this game isn't going to be (comparatively) representative of the rest of the game. The mod was nice and quick about getting this game set up, so let's play.

[ICEninja]

What game do you feel to be your best somewhat recent performance as Town?

My best (recent) game as town was BY FAR Mini Normal 1282. Unfortunately this game was finished right in March, and thus the game was eaten by the great crash of '12. That was literally the only (finished) game that fits your criteria, unfortunately, as I've lost a lot of games since coming back from my hiatus. Just as a quick rundown of what happened, I was cop, and I got 2 guilties and got them both lynched. Me and vrtra (who was a GREAT doctor that picked up on a cop tell I dropped) pretty much won the game.

What game do you feel to be your worst somewhat recent performance as Town?

Take a look at any of my recent games and chances are that suits. Mini 1315 is probably a fine example, as I played hyper aggressive as a power role and got shot night 1. I got frustrated by the lack of participation in the game and stupidly drew the bullet to myself.

Same questions for scum.

I've only ever played scum twice, and neither of them were recent. Both of them involved me being lynched on day 1. Yeah, I'm pretty much the easiest player to read on the site.

Really? You're going to say random voting is scummy?

Michael is spot on here, you seem to have no clue why I found what he did scummy. Please review my reasoning for voting him. You'll note that I never once call random voting scummy.

ICE, I believe that a relatively new player is likely to understand that the goal of random voting is to generate discussion, without actually considering if his vote is the best way to achieve that. Not agreeing with your suspicion on brundi.

Why should a newbie not recognize that voting for someone based on their name is useless? Your first vote, while still definitely RVS, showed that there was a factor that made a specific player more likely to be scum than others, despite a severe lack of information. Maybe not everyone has the ability to find something as such this early in the game, WHICH IS FINE, but when someone goes and claims that they made an RVS vote based on someone's name and playing it off to get town cred is just fishy.

A quick note about Nhammen's questions, it took me about 5 minutes to answer them. Anyone who is wasting hours combing through their games to find their *best* town game and *best* scum game etc. is being silly. I personally don't use meta very often unless I know a player or something very specific strikes me, but I know other people who use it to great effect so I won't slam him for asking these questions.

Were Aurorus and Ice's votes more effective than mine for some reason?

Nope. We didn't make those votes to advance the game. I didn't, anyway. I made it because I felt clever, thus my vote was removed in my next post and replaced with my vote on you, which should damn well advance the game.

Whew, sorry, that was longer than I usually make a post for page 2. I think I'm going to like this game.

[ICEninja]

Jee you are obviously confused. I did not vote him because he random voted someone based on their name. I voted him because he tried to look pro-town by claiming that his actions got discussion going. Town wants to get discussion going. Scum wants to look pro-town. By claiming he was trying to get discussion going, he's trying to look pro-town.

Get it now?

So whats your reasoning for the vote on me now?

[ICEninja]

People who RVS for funny reasons like names, avatars, etc =\= people who RVS for the purpose of moving the game forward.

Because you can't seem to focus on anything else

It's not that I can't focus on anything else, its that people don't understand WHY I'm voting for you. It seems like I've clearly explained that

that it wasn't the vote that was scummy, as I've said many times, it was the claiming that the name-based-RVS-voting move he made advances the game forward, instead of admitting it was just an amusing remark that people often like to do to start games off

, but some people still seem to be hung up on this and believe I voted for you simply because you made an RVS vote.

If people don't get it by now then I feel sorry for you.

ICE; do you not think that to a player with just one completed game on-site, the notion that any vote advances the game is not altogether unbelievable?

Of course it's possible. With the information we have so far in the game, however, it's the best lead I have. I don't vote with conviction on the first few pages, I vote based off of things that give a specific player a higher likelihood of being scum.

I feel like it is going to be very easy to just write Michel off as town, as his posting does indeed seem quite pro-town. However, I will keep a close eye on his motivations and look past the well reasoned and thoughtful posting, as he is likely to post in such a way regardless of alignment.

Jee and brundibar seem to be voting me out of either confusion or frustration, and quite a few people haven't participated in the game yet.

[ICEninja]

How am I not making sense? I'm saying "it will be EASY to write him off as town...HOWEVER". Those two posts you quoted and bolded literally make perfect sense with what I'm saying. Scum-Michael is going to do a very good job of looking town, because of the way he posts. This is what I'm cautioning people of.

Am I wording things poorly? I don't think I've ever been misunderstood this much in the first 10 pages of a game, let alone by page 2.

[ICEninja]

ICE Mind addressing my question on page one, re:semi-serious vote? Or directing to where you've answered it in case I missed that.

While I did indeed forget to respond to this question, I answered it more or less in my previous post with this statement:

With the information we have so far in the game, however, it's the best lead I have. I don't vote with conviction on the first few pages, I vote based off of things that give a specific player a higher likelihood of being scum.

A "semi serious" vote that I make in the RVS means I feel that one player has a very slightly higher likelihood of being scum than the rest of the players.

found your own admission of playing terrible scum and being an easy to read player interesting. Are we to take that as a pro-town nod to yourself?

I'm town in most games I play, and as a result I rather like being easy to read. That being said, playing as scum really sucks.

So jee, mind telling me why your vote is on me? You seemed to try to find a reason to have a vote on me after putting your vote on me, but it was obviously a flawed reason.

[ICEninja]

Unvote
Vote: brundibar

Not RVS

I have excellent, obvious reasons. Only have a couple of minutes, so can't compose them right now.

I note quite the discrepancy here. You had time to post twice in a 15 minute period, and you had time to read someone's post directed towards you. You had time to post your reasons for voting, and instead chose not to.

Unvote, vote Pine

.

[ICEninja]

Think, Ice. I'm neither dense enough nor noobish enough to make such a scum blunder as voting without a good reason. Ergo, I have a reason, and will explain it in my own time.

I know it wasn't a mistake. However, it's not like town you to blatantly lie about it.

[ICEninja]

I believe a vote based on a name is just as random as any other vote that early in the game.

So? No one has talked about how "random" a vote is, only what the intent behind the votes are. And you still haven't explained how anything I've done even comes close to suggesting I'm scum.

[ICEninja]

- He voted someone
- He said he did this to help create discussion
- You accused him that since he is voting based on a name, that his intentions were not to create discussion.

I give up. Vote me if you want, but you still really have zero reasons for actually accusing me of scum. Sure you have a "reason" (if still confused) for voting me, but it doesn't even point to me being scum.

I am currently voting for you because of your strong accusation. I do not see anything wrong with what brundibar did. You on the other hand have some weird problem with it... which is why my vote is on you.

So this makes me scum...how?

[ICEninja]

So, I was pretty much expecting what just happened to happen. I don't like that Pine blatantly lied for the purpose of getting reactions, but that is Pine after all.

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure how I feel about this situation. Pine actually makes a good point (and if it remains a relevant point I'll read the game to get a feel for what he's saying, in context), but brundibar also makes a good counter argument, as I certainly wouldn't want someone using my first game as meta for my play now. That being said, it was brundibar's last game.

My initial vote on brundibar, as I'm sure many have guessed by now, was purely an attempt to accelerate the game in to useful discussion as quickly as possible (and those of you who know me know that I virtually always try to do this) but now I feel there is some justification in a vote on him.

Pine plays gambits, in my experience, as both town and scum. He's erratic and as such I can definitely see him having done exactly what he just did as either alignment. The fact that he had to blatantly lie to do it bug me, though, so I'm going to hold my vote on him. For now.

[ICEninja]

Pine, you think yourself far too clever. Honestly, you accomplished little other than admit that you lied. I've come to the conclusion that meta research for someone's one and only game (and a somewhat dated one at that) is pretty much useless, so the fact that someone voted you and had decent reasoning to do so does not indicate him as scum at all really.

I've noticed a trend in your scum games where you have this extra cocky "look at how clever I am and awesome at finding scum" attitude compared to your town games where you tend to just, well, find scum. That's how I pegged you as scum in mini 1315, anyway, combined with your lurky posting habits. Which you obviously wouldn't repeat so soon after being caught on, anyway.

[ICEninja]

You are being suppppeeerrrrr defensive for only having one vote on you.

I'm being supppppeeerrrrr annoyed. My concept wasn't really that difficult to grasp, I explained it no fewer than 4 times, and people were still confused.

But, if your going to make a awkward accusation at someone to accelerate the game, expect to get some attention.

I always do. I just prefer it when the attacks on me make sense so I can respond to them.

I haven't read page 5 yet, I'll catch up tomorrow. Been a damn long day at work (and Wednesday will be another, so let's hope I get a very solid post in tomorrow).

[ICEninja]

Interesting. Reading everybody in ISO has given me some more solidified reads of people.

Most notably, I looked deeper at pecan and found some weird stuff in there. For example, it was noted that he made an RVS vote after serious discussion had began. Then, I noticed, pecan never actually changed his vote. What REALLY strikes me odd is that pecan puts an FoS on quid, whom his vote is already on, for a ridiculous reason (pointing out where Aurorus called pecan scummy instead of letting Aurorus do it).

Either pecan doesn't have a clue where his vote is, or he's "confirming" his completely random vote for a completely baseless reason.

There's lots of pretend scum hunting here. I don't like it.

Unvote, vote pieceofpecanpie

. Pine, I'm still watching you.

[ICEninja]

Quick comment:

This gets you a scumpoint as it exactly fits the behaviour that nhammen's RQS opened up for scum, using self-reads to portray yourself as a bad scum-player.

I am by no means an exceptional player, but I'm far from incompetent. I'm sure people in this game will vouch for my at least decent scum hunting abilities and reasoned cases. In my 20-something games on this site, the only two times I've ever been the day 1 lynch was when I was scum. Simultaneously, I have never survived to day 2 as scum. The facts speak for themselves, honestly. I'm almost always night killed as town, and almost always in the first 3 nights. If you don't believe me, my wiki (created and periodically updated by Equinox, shoutout) is fairly detailed.

I'm not blowing smoke here, honestly, I freaking suck as scum.

Similarly so here. While I take the point you were making in the post this sentence was basically distancing yourself from your early-game actions in a way I don't like.

And once again, I'm sure there are people in this thread (and virtually all of my previous games in my wiki) that can confirm that I tend to exaggerate a case early on for the purpose of generating useful discussion more quickly. It virtually always works. I obviously can't stand by my reasoning for building a page 1 case on brundi when there are several pages of quite useful information to be had.

[ICEninja]

Am I the only one who finds Aldusk's unvote of Pine strange, particularly considering its placement in the context of what he's talking about?

[ICEninja]

I am very happy with where my vote is.

Aldusk, I can't quite put my finger on it, by the timing and placement of your unvote just feels really off to me somehow. Gut read, let's call it.

[ICEninja]

Michel (yes, I'm finally spelling your name correctly, town points for me right??) the big thing about PoPP is that he threw out a FoS while having a random vote out. Obviously if town has a legitimate suspicion on a player who doesn't exactly have a wagon on them would want to vote them, right?

Because of his wording of FoS on someone he had a random vote on, I don't believe he would have voted if his RVS vote was elsewhere. Otherwise he would have said something to the effect of "my vote is serious now" or "I'm happy where my vote is" or "confirm vote" etc., FoS typically implies new suspicion.

It's just weird is all, and I feel like town would have committed a little stronger to the case than scum, considering the alternate was a completely random vote.

[ICEninja]

Jee, it wasn't "what did I do wrong?" it was "what makes you think I'm scum?".

The stuff you pointed out did not suggest me being scum, simply doing something you didn't like.

[ICEninja]

Hmmm, reading through your #152 ICE I see semantics over wording, but nothing that really spells out reasons for your vote.

I was as clear as I could be, and I feel quite justified in my vote. This isn't a defense at all.

You are as yet to respond to my question in #143. I'd like to hear an answer.

Um. What? You JUST quoted the post where I addressed this.

You could call my FoS my way of at the time indicating that I was comfortable with my vote.

I don't believe you. I'm fairly confident, due to your wording and the way the situation played out, that you would have simply FoSed (as opposed to voted) for quid if your random vote was elsewhere.

So, um, who do you think is scum? And what are you doing to find them, eh? Your 175 almost looks like scum hunting, but when you really read it it isn't scum hunting at all.

I changed my opinion because I knew I'd be harrassed about it if I didn't. Kindly fuck off.

HMM. Who benefits from this kind of mindset, town or scum?

Yeah I don't like Pine right now but he's dropping Pine tells moreso than scum tells, but his mindset right now is definitely benefiting scum more than town. PoPP is definitely where votes should be going right now (though I don't mind a Pine dueling wagon at all).

[ICEninja]

Pine, there's your scum hunting and there's other people's scum hunting. If you're scum, then obstructing other people's ability to scum hunt (I.E. not respond to cases) definitely plays to a scum win condition. Especially if YOUR scum hunting is throwing people off the track.

[ICEninja]

Michel's defense in post 146 is actually rather convincing. Though I'm still rather skeptical of the use of the word "scumpotential."

Defense? He was simply pointing out his playstyle. Being honest about your game history =\= defense. I'm going to remember this if one of you flip scum.

I have a test then (the ACT)

GL, that shit gets you scholarships. I know, I work with College Funding Solutions.

By the way, people who have played with Pine, would you say his behavior right now is typical?

He's dropping Pine tells left and right. Even if he wasn't Pine I'd know he was Pine. Doesn't mean I know I know what alignment he is, unfortunately.

I'm kinda drunk right right now so I'm not going to make any decisions on anything until the moring. Woo karaoke night!

[ICEninja]

@ICE: you mean that pine regulary takes anti-town actions? I did a quick read of his games and saw him surviving to endgame in a couple of them. How comes he isn't lynched more early more often?

Town surviving to late game is more about not being night killed than not being lynched. Night kills always land on town, where lynches don't. Anti-town players (Pine isn't ALWAYS anti-town, but he is pretty much always conceited and somewhat rude, which often gets mistaken for anti-town or even scummy) and is virtually always a lynch possibility, but rarely the first pick for a lynch, so he ends up surviving to late game all the time. No offense to Pine at all, I've gotten used to playing with him (the first couple times were not very enjoyable but I get him now) and I'm not really convinced he's scum here.

Especially with the tracker claim, I don't want to see Pine lynched today. Scum will night kill him, which is fine because that means our strong pro-town players will survive to day 2.

That being said, I believe Pine would indeed be a pretty good judge of Nhammen's scum meta, so I think there is a very high likelihood of one scum between the two.

Actually to be honest I'm not comfortable with this day ending yet anyway. There are multiple players who I simply don't have solid reads on due to lack of recent content. I'm suggesting a PoPP wagon, but I'd really like to see this game get to 10-15 pages before the lynch.

[ICEninja]

I'm not 100% caught up but I just wanted to make a comment that in my entire game history, I have never seen town have 2 of the same role except under circumstance of JOAT, and even then it's extremely rare for a town JOAT to share a role with another town PR.

[ICEninja]

Michel, if Arugula was at L-1 would you feel comfortable hammering him? If so, why?

[ICEninja]

I've never encountered a double voter before. I really dislike the fact that we have 2 power roles claimed during day 1.

I think I like this Arugula wagon now. The reasons for the wagon are becoming more concrete, and I agree that 221 was absolutely scummy.

Unvote, vote Arugula

. PoPP is still suspicious to me.

[ICEninja]

Pine you made me chuckle. You do just about every game.

I never once mentioned the word 'scum' in reference to you. However, as you said, I didn't like it... so I had my vote on you.

Oh OK so you vote for people who you don't think are scum. Fascinating. That at least explains why you never explained why what I did was more likely to come from scum, anyway.

[ICEninja]

I use my vote to draw reactions, its just as handy as any other tool in the scumhunting toolbox.

Fair enough, this was more or less the answer I was looking for to come from town. I do it pretty much every game in the first 3 pages anyway.

As for a short case on my lynch preference (Arugula), I partially sheeped Michel's case and solidified my vote because of post 221 where Arugula is clearly grasping at straws and looking for ways to discredit and OMGUS you without blatantly doing so without reason.

[ICEninja]

No, we've got 3 claims. We're not lynching anyone except the VT claim. He'll be left alive from NKs indefinitely, and do you seriously think we can afford to take Aru to lylo? Even if he's town, at this point we have to lynch him eventually anyways. We gain information from this lynch, set ourselves up for a stronger late-game with this lynch, and could potentially kill scum too. Scum claim VT too, you know.

Hammer away, whoever.

[ICEninja]

However, I want to be on record that I have my doubts about AV's sincerity.

My eyebrows went up when he just revoted as a "hammer". Did not like. At all.

I find it far more likely that he read page 10, noticed the pressure on Arugula, and during his reread was on the lookout for things to vote Arugula on.

I'm going to check this in context during N1. If this wagon is indeed on a townie, and this points true, then I know where my radar will lead me to at the start of day 2.

[ICEninja]

I'm confident enough to take up ICE on his covert 1v1 proposal, although I hate the fact that he's lining up lynches in principle.

Who ever said anything about lining up lynches? If he's town, it's going to be scum points for you. Simple as that. I don't line up lynches until we've got scum flips and associative tells.

[ICEninja]

I'm not going to repeat reasons that were posted last page. Feel free to read them again yourself, and questions about any particular point you don't understand.

[ICEninja]

I don't think you actually know why, and that's the reason I asked you to restate.
Your failure to do so does not look good.

That's pretty pathetic. If you can't go back and read post 268 and my comment 2 posts later, clearly indicating that I understand the point he made, with both posts made on the previous page, when I clearly told you to go read them again...sigh. Bad vote is bad.

I'm actually even more convinced now that there is at least one scum between Arugula and AV.

[ICEninja]

Oops hit submit too early instead of preview.

If Pine is a tracker, you can bet your ass I want him around a few nights. There's a decent chance he'll either catch scum or clear a PR.
But this really confused me:

And, for all my bashing on Pine, I've decided that it's in my best interest to buddy buddy up to him as much as possible.

ICE buddying with Pine all throughout the game? Noted.

These were consecutive posts, by the way.

And yes, I'm not setting up lynches at all. I'm simply pointing out that I will remember a specific action that Michael pointed out (AV voting before he caught up to the actual reasons to vote, which is probably a move done by scum to get on the best bandwagon) will very likely point to AV if and only if Arugula flips town. The point is this is an extremely strong tell indicating AV as scum, but it will be rendered null in the instance that Arugula flips scum.

Get it? If there's any more confusion I fucking give up because I've explained myself about various things 4 times more than I should have so far this game.

[ICEninja]

Um. I really don't mean to ad hom here, but I just don't see how I can respond to this. What you're saying doesn't even make sense, and feels like a kid throwing a temper tantrum. If Aru flips scum (which you initially seemed to think was likely, until you got attacked for thinking that), then I would have dropped the point anyway. If Aru flips town, then the point Michel brought up is a very good one and should be analyzed in depth.

Why are you so freaked out about this happening? You're the one whose is obviously convinced Aru will flip town, despite having had your vote on him VERY recently, and nothing he did changed your mind.

Actually, is there enough time for an AV wagon? I'd hate to force yet another claim, but I'm really worried about how much of a fuss AV is making.

[ICEninja]

There's a couple other things of note here, too:

Michel was the one who brought up the observation, not me. I simply said "yeah, you're right, if Aru flips town I'm going to look at AV tomorrow". AV then attacked me hard, despite Michel having been the one to make the accusation. I'm clearly the easier of the 2 of us to attack, so it would make more sense for scum AV to attack me on the matter as opposed to Michel.

Also, AV gave very silly reasons to leave the Aru wagon, declaring him "confirmed town" because of me agreeing with Michel's pointing out of AV's possible slip up. What the hell?

AV seems terrified of the fact that he's going to get scum points if Aru flips town. He wouldn't worry about that if he thought Aru was scum though, would he? And he obviously thought so.

Yeah the more I think about this the more it makes sense.

Unvote Arugula, vote AurorusVox

. If we run too close to the deadline, though, I'll go back to Arugula.

[ICEninja]

Opportunism for the fail by Arugula.

We can come back to AV tomorrow.

Hmm. Possibly. Arugula is still a good lynch candidate.

I do, however, want to draw everyone's attention to this quote:

I'm going to check this in context during N1. If this wagon is indeed on a townie, and this points true

, then I know where my radar will lead me to at the start of day 2.

I didn't say I would automatically give AV scum points should Aru flip town, I said I will go and investigate the point should Aru flip town. If you indeed had a solid defense, and you indeed thought Aru would flip scum, then why the hell would you be

in the least bit worried

about this? It looks very much to me like you are worried because not only do you have information that Aru is town, but that you did indeed slip up.

My current vote, however, actually has pretty much nothing to do with Michel's point at all, and everything to do with his completely ridiculous reactions. I'm obviously not going to push a lynch on an associative tell when Aru hasn't flipped.

And I also haven't forgotten that AV voted Aru again when Aru was at l-1, which is just wtf.

[ICEninja]

I agree with pine's #205. ICE, AV, could you please come back to the Arugula wagon?

Deadline is very soon. Fair enough. I do wish I had some more time to pursue AV as a lynch candidate, but Arugula's flip should be highly informative for this game, and he still looks to have a decent chance of flipping scum.

Unvote, Vote Arugula

[ICEninja]

"AV IS SCUM IF ARGULU IS TOWN"

Blatant misrep of me. I've explained my stance on this many times, and if you're still blabbering on about this shit then I can't help you. No one can.

"ARGULU HAS A GOOD CHANCE OF SCUM"

I don't have a flip of either of you yet. Honestly, I think your reaction to the situation has been significantly scummier than Michel's point brought up against you even if both Aru flips town and reading the situation in context shows it to be damning. Aru is scummy for all the reasons that have been stated. Honestly, if you feel like I don't have grounds for voting either of you, then once again, I can't help you.

I don't have a flip yet. On day 1, my read of one player is pretty much not going in to factor at all to my read of another player.

A side note, you seriously need to calm down. I understand frustration, having felt a lot of it myself this game, but you're really having a fit beyond what is productive to your alignment, regardless of what it is.

[ICEninja]

I am willing to vote ICE for a number of reasons,

among which are his connections to Pine

, and his repeated waffling on certain issues.

Oh OK so it's totally fine to lynch someone on day 1 because of associative tells. OH WAIT.

Sure you seem to have other points as well, but seriously.

[ICEninja]

I don't read in to connection stuffs until I have a flip. It would definitely waste my time if we don't lynch Aru or he flips scum. I was simply declaring my intent.

[ICEninja]

I want to give possible tracker-Pine at least one chance to use his ability.

[ICEninja]

"Uh... yeah, I did that research last night, and it totally points to AVox being scum. Everybody pile on the wagon, go, go, go, quicklynch obvious scum"

I'm obviously not going to be able to convince anyone he's scum by doing that. How would doing that even profit me? If Arugula flips town and I find there are reasons to vote AV because of that, then I'll include it in my (already fairly substantial) case against AV. If not, I'll probably vote AV anyway. He's the player most likely to be scum right now, but there's no traction for a wagon on him and I don't want to divide town further than it has been between 4 lynch candidates (Arugula, Pine, AV, and myself) as that would simply muddy the waters and make finding scum later in the game much more difficult.

Don't worry, either I'm going to have a strong case against AV tomorrow or I won't vote him. There won't be any in between.

And you're probably more worried about me being NKed than I am. I'm not particularly enjoying this game, so I really wouldn't be at all upset if I'm done after day 1.

[ICEninja]

PEdit: Sorry in advance that this is a massive quote stripe post. I know some people don't like this, but I had a lot of individual things to respond to.

You have a substantial case on AVox? If we're already divided, and he's one of the candidates for lynch, you're not really dividing town FURTHER, instead, make a case for best scum and we'll lynch best scum.

Right now town is really only divided 3 ways because I stopped pushing the AV lynch. If I pushed it, (and it seems like others would be willing to listen to me right now) town would be divided 4 ways, with deadline tomorrow. Doing this would help scum more than us, as it would force too many people to settle on a lynch instead of get the one they want, and scum will pretty much be able to talk their way out of any day 1 VCA.

Hm, with your "substantial case," do you really need an Aru townflip to attack AVox?

A town flip of Aru makes my already substantial case stronger. I did not need an Aru flip to vote AV earlier today, and I won't need it tomorrow. HOWEVER a scum flip of Aru would weaken some of the points I've made. My case against AV isn't exactly associative tells, and stands on his own, but AV's votes on Aru didn't feel like busing to me.

Really? Why did you not like that?

Because it wasn't followed with any comments about him being hammered or any inquiry about if he killed scum or not. Someone who is pretending to hammer when not is obviously trying to get information, whereas AV simply looked like he had no idea where his vote was or where his previous suspicions were. Very scummy.

Hmmm... interesting. Are you intentionally buddying Pine?

Not really. I've just got a lot of experience with the guy and I'm not currently convinced he's scum despite the fact that quite a few people do.

Umm yeah. That is exactly the reason he is claiming. He isn't claiming the logic is bad. He is claiming that you jumping on this without even indicating that you actually thought about it is extremely scummy. And it is kinda scummy.

It wasn't a complicated point. AV just didn't like the fact that I disregarded his defense of it (simply because I hadn't investigated the point yet, why would I analyze the defense before analyzing the argument?) and insisted that should Aru flip town I'm going to take a good hard look at the timing of AV's vote. Explain how this is scummy.

To me, it looks like you are saying that AV was right when he said you didn't understand Michel's case.

What? I'm simply stating that

I haven't examined Michel's point IN CONTEXT yet

. Just because I understand it doesn't mean I've actually gone back and took a close look at AV's vote and intentions and such yet, because as I've said repeatedly, it would be silly for me to actually do that without knowing Aru's alignment.

Ummm, you do realize you said these two things in the same post, right?

As I've said earlier, a lot of the points I have against AV won't make a lot of sense if Aru flips goon (if Aru is a scum PR then obviously AV would have flipped a shit with the intent of protecting him, but I'll go in to that if that flip happens). If I don't feel like I have a strong case against AV tomorrow, then I won't vote him. It really is as simple as that.

Ummm, just had a thought. Do you agree that there are associative tells between yourself and Pine?

Of course there are. I've defended Pine. If one of us flips scum that will certainly be enough grounds to go after the other. Should Pine flip scum, then I'll obviously have to argue that the points weren't indicative of same alignment, but honestly the stuff you're pushing on me is mostly moot because most of it relies on another person flipping to make sense. You can't push that shit without flips.

I'm going to take a closer look at Pine during night 1, maybe there's something I've missed. This many people being willing to push him this close to deadline means there are town players interested in his lynch. If anyone wants to vote him on the onset of day 2, it would be helpful if you included a comprehensive case as to why you find him scummy.

[ICEninja]

Good lord it's been a long time since we got a vote count. I had to go back several pages to confirm that this was indeed the hammer.

[ICEninja]

I'm not really following also what the problem with double voter and tracker is, the only thing I can think of is that most setups that use a tracker have active PRs for the tracker to follow around, and double voter has no night action.

However if you combine that with the fact that we've got a cop flip, that is indeed really suspicious. Pine, please do bring up some games that have both a cop and a tracker, because I've never personally witnessed a town having more than one investigative role.

What was the mysterious three way?

I already talked about this. Why do you keep asking stupid questions that are answered in thread? There was support for Aru's lynch, there was suspicion and some support for my lynch, and same with Pine. I didn't want to divide town by a 4th, because there was suspicion and some support for your lynch as well.

This is priceless. I didn't know where my vote was? Considering I'd been asked by the mod to re-vote a couple of posts earlier? And considering I'd explicitly mentioned it would be the hammer coming up? AS IF. This is a bullshit point YET AGAIN.

If you're referring to this post, I'm referring to this post. If you're counting the "correction", then you voted him 3 times. It definitely did not look like a gambit, it looked like you were confused. Considering how often your vote moves around when compared to the number of posts during day 1, I don't blame you.

I didn't get to looking at Pine last night, as all my mafia time lately has been dedicated to my other game in lylo. I'll do this though, and see if I like Pine for scum or not. I'll also post a comprehensive case against AV as well, where my vote will likely follow.

[ICEninja]

Finally have a solid block of time to sit down for this game. Here we go:

Yeah AV is scummy as hell.
In post 246 and 247, AV is doing his catch up. He cites 2 reasons for thinking Arugula is scum. One is this comment from Michel:

Arugula: I don't really understand #109. It seems to me that you did notice jee's vote ("his recent quag vote seemed genuine") but then forgot about it ("but he didn't vote him").

and disliking Arugula's (somewhat of a lack of) response to AV's comment in post 102. If all of this was done on page 5, then great. That's sufficient reasoning to merit some pressure at that stage in the game by any reasonable person's standards.

AV gives significantly better reasons to vote for pecan than he does for voting Arugula. However, despite the fact that he's only caught up to page 6 (and saw the votes on page 10) he votes Arugula. As Michel pointed out, this vote is really weird. Why vote despite not being caught up? Especially for outdated reasons? The timing for AV's vote was right when the Arugula wagon was starting to pick up steam (as I myself had switched over). I don't believe this was a coincidence.

AV "confirms" his suspicions of Arugula based on actions of page 9. Yet he's already voted. AV even praises my vote at this point in time.

Then Michel makes his observation, and I say this:

I'm going to check this in context during N1. If this wagon is indeed on a townie, and this points true, then I know where my radar will lead me to at the start of day 2.

It checks true. Here's the thing, though, AV knew all of this. AV knew that the wagon was on a townie, and that the lynching of Arugula was going to damn him.

AV's defense in post 274 is noteworthy, as he does the best he can to explain why Arugula was scummier than PoPP as of page 5, but his points are definitely stretching it, and a lot of his reasoning is simply stating what Arugula said, and calling it scumposting. His earlier points against PoPP were stronger than that.

On page 12, he simply flips out. He made up bullshit about me supposedly not understanding Michel's point. If you look at the post where he votes me, he really doesn't have much reasoning AT ALL to substantiate anything he's saying. Yet he's pushed, actually quite hard, for an Arugula lynch, even saying he supports a hammer. Yet simply because people come in and say if Arugula flips town, he's going to get scum points, he COMPLETELY reverses his read on Arugula from confident that he's scum to confirmed town (LOL only scum knows someone is confirmed as town on day 1).

I could go on and show examples of how he over reacts, makes ridiculously reaching assumptions, and does whatever he can to prevent that Arugula lynch that, if AV is scum and knows Arugula is town, certainly points to his own doom, but everyone saw it. Quite a few players commented on it and agreed that he was behaving oddly. If anyone really needs me to point out what I'm talking about here I can, but you should be able to very easily find it on your own.

AV actively tried to divide the town even further, pushing for a 3rd counterwagon so close to deadline.

Even if we didn't lynch Arugula and had him flip town, AV's reactions were simply so extreme and polar opposite to his earlier suspicions and statements, and they were reversed for the purpose of self preservation. This is scum motivation to the max.

Vote AurorusVox

. The next block of time I have goes to analyzing Pine, as there really is a LOT of good reason to doubt his claim.

[ICEninja]

Whiskers did you even bother reading anything ABOVE my self quote? ALL of that is explaining what you just accused me of not doing. 4 paragraphs worth. Seriously?

[ICEninja]

Alright well I never do this, but I'm actually going to have to replace out of this game. I'm going on a trip from July 1st to July 7th (that will involve zero internet access) that I wasn't originally planning on going on when I signed up for this game. I asked mod if he preferred me to play it out and take a long V/LA or replace, and he feels it would be best to replace. I agree that this is best.

I apologize for the timing of this in particular, as I've got some suspicion on myself. I'll do my best to resolve what I can so that my replacement isn't in an unfair situation.

Yes, he overreacts, but not in a scummy way, IMO.

I feel there simply wasn't enough reason to polar reverse reads based on that.

jumping on forming wagons (Pine, Arugula) with little to no reasons for doing so

There was reasoning for both. It just wasn't original reasoning.

claiming that he plays poorly as scum multiple times as obvious town tells

This again? Seriously? Look I don't like to use meta defense but I've actually brought this up quite a few times in games where I'm town. If you need me to dig that up for you I will. I was asked by nhammen to show my "best" game as scum, and I simply don't have one. I explained myself. How in God's name is this scummy?

take that into account with his other game (that I was a part of)

This game is ongoing. We are not allowed to discuss this game. Especially since I haven't even flipped in that game, so you sure as hell can't use it to indicate my alignment one way or another here.

his overt defensiveness at a couple of votes on him coupled with his maudlin #362, "I really wouldn't be at all upset if I'm done after day 1"

Considering how strongly AV attacked me, I felt my level of defensiveness was justified. Also the comment about hoping to be NKed was because of the very reason I'm replacing out, actually. I figured it would come to this.

Maybe, but I didn't know that. Didn't know what your [original remark] was, didn't know where to find it. Didn't know the info above the almost-self-quote was in response to that.

Look at this. This just makes me mad. You didn't even know at all what the hell I was talking about, you still obviously haven't read the rest of my post, your attack on me was

ridiculously

overdone, and your vote is still on me. Honestly, if this is going to be the quality of this game, I'm not at all upset to be leaving it.

[ICEninja]

You mean the quality of game where you just say stuff and assume other players know what you're making reference to? I won't miss you.

I'd be willing to bet money you were the only player in the game who was confused about what I was talking about.

And um yeah, I decided Avox was scum yesterday,

when he was acting like scum

. I was still on Aru because of reasons I've stated multiple times. Town was far too divided, we had too many PR claims, and there was good reasoning to lynch Aru.

You're the one who is looking for reasons to keep your vote on me. I've already given mountains of evidence that AV is scum, and a lot of it would have been relevant even without knowing Aru's alignment.

[ICEninja]

Wtf I did. Did you not read my posts while I was voting for AV? After I realized there would have been too much town division I backed off, and still feel 100% justified in doing so (sure it was a mislynch, but with the information I had at the time it was the right move).

I seriously cant believe how bad your push on me is. Only once has anyone ever pushed a worse vote against me. Ever.