Mini #1007 (Game Over)
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AlmasterGM
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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This is the part I don't get. If you frequently bite cops and doctors, that means you consider yourself a highly valued player. As a high value target, you are also likely to bite the NK ... which, as a PGO, is a good thing. If you had just tried to play extremely pro-town, you probably would have avoided Cop, so the only possible loss would have been doctor. In my mind, it would have been worth the risk to not claim.Hoopla wrote:Knowing me, I'd be likelier to attract doctors and investigation roles if I didn't claim, though.
However, I can see the justification for claiming, so I don't think the claim in and of itself is scummy. It is the meta argument that makes it relevant - poor logic plus scum motivation for using that logic plus evidence that you used the same tactic before ....
Vote: Hoopla-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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WARNING! WARNING!ScumVillage Idiot detected!
Seriously though, wtf. I don't even know how to respond to such blatant excuses, scrambling, and lies. At first I thought, "it's scummy," then I was like, "nah, it's just a VI." But really it's not just VI ... it's stupid scummy.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Uhh, no. If there's a Vig, he should be shooting drmyshottyizsik in the face at the earliest opportunity.Elleran wrote:True.. We'll give scums 2 turns to shoot the VI. I don't think vig (if he/she exists) should shoot the first turn though. Not shooting will force the scums to shoot the VI for their own safety.
...soooo, any chance of a one-shot day vig?-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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The point of VIs is that (without very extensive meta information that we don't have) you can't really tell and they are dangerous in lylo. So they die.redtail wrote:Wait, but if you think shotty is the VI, then why do you want him shot? Do you think he's scum?
But that's a sideshow. The main course is this Hoopla PGO shenanigans.
I buy it. Not because of the breadcrumb, those are silly. I buy it because I thought Hoopla claiming PGO was illogical and Hoopla usually isn't, so it seemed out of character. If this catches scum, it'll be play of the month … and the obvious target for scum-catchage is AGar. Unfortunately, I'm not really sold on him being scum just because he strongly opposed the claim. He had a meta reason to do so, so it doesn't seem THAT odd that he would think Hoopla was lying.
Hmmmmm.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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So, what sorts of "interesting" things happened because of your vote and what implications do they have?ConfidAnon wrote:Wanted to see what would happen, to be honest. Discussion so far has focused on two players. While not neccessarily bad, I wanted to potentially bring someone else into the fray to see how people would react. You struck me as a little under the radar (I know it's not very far into the game), so I thought it would be interesting to see how others would react.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Helllllllllllo buddying.drmyshottyizsik wrote:
OMG!!!! G & H!! Ok i'll be nice to you in this game and give you a chance, for your choice of style i don't feel hurts anyone at all in this game type. I'm happy you're here with meGood and Honest wrote: drmyshottyizsik, isn't it funny that we're participating in two games at the same time?-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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This reduces toAGar wrote:I don't particularly like Almaster much at this point. Like I said, he latched onto my argument for his vote. Also, I dislike the notion of him directing a vig to waste their shot on drmyshottyizsik, when I feel the shot could be better used. I'd much rather use him as lynch-bait on an appropriate day, as I've seen the case come that there are appropriate days, and we'll probably have at least one day where it's ideal to lynch him pre-LYLO.
1) I latched.
2) You disagree with my theories on Vigging.
Disagreeing on Vig theory is a terrible reason to vote for me. For one, there's no reason why difference of opinions = scum. Second, you aren't even theoretically correct. Shotty doesn't "scream" town to me, he screams unreadable VI. Which seems like the PERFECT Vig shot in my book.
So the only actual vote justification is latching. Which is completely unsubstantiated because
1) I gave very clear reasons in my post why I was voting Hoopla. You can go re-read them if you want, but to say I just agreed with you is rather self-centered. My argument focused more on why I thought claiming PGO was a bad idea, not you. In other words, I didn't just say, "lol I agree with AGar. No no, the people doing that are redtail
And Zach.redtail wrote:In short, I agree with AGar.
This is a MUCH more clear cut case of latching. Why aren't you voting for either of these two?Zach wrote:Plus this.
I can get behind this wagon.
2) You give no reason as to why you prefer me as scum over VRK or shotty, even though we all voted the same way.
Misrep. I said, "you can't really tell." That means you don't have a read on them. Having a no-read VI in lylo is dangerous. Thus, shoot. If shotty ends up SCREAMING town, then fine, he lives.redtail wrote:This is what gets me. In essence, he's saying that we should lynch shotty regardless of what we think of his alignment, simply because of this one incident and his inability to properly explain it. To that, I say no. If I think shotty is town, then **** it, I'm not voting for shotty, and as Vig I'm not shooting shotty. As for the initial Hoopla vote, basically your argument against Hoopla rests on the meta argument. Plus, there's this gem:
1) The first point is an appeal to nonexistant authority, who are these "many people" and what are there reasons? You can't cite stats without the stats.redtail wrote:The declarative statement, "The claim was illogical" has 2 problems: first of all, this is a very arguable point, and many would think it was logical. 2nd, why do you know think it was illogical, when earlier you said that you could understand the reasoning behind it.
2) I very clearly stated my argument before. I said, I could SEE WHY somebody would do it (e.g., understanding why it is a bad claim is slightly complex, so somebody could have just not thought it all the way out and thought making the claim was a good move), but I thought it was a bad move overall and was surprised Hoopla made the play (because she usually does think things out all the way through). If you want to know precisely why I thought it was illogical, go read my previous post. I explained that it is worth the risk of hitting the doctor in order to nab scum.
Contrdictory vote. You say illogical != scummy, but you're voting for me based on a supposed logical inconsistency.Zach wrote:Illogical does not necessarily equal scummy.
Also, you're wrong. Being illogical alone isn't sufficient for a scumtell, but illogical combined with scum motiviation FOR being illogical supercharges the tell.
Right now,Unvote. Vote: Zach
redtail's "declarative statement" (LOL at use of fancy labels to enhance otherwise silly content) argument is bad, but Zach looks the worse because he should know better than to endorse it. Also, his posts bite all the AGar analysis about "latching," and his vote is contradictory.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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It doesn't indicate that. If somebody murders somebody, I can say "that's illogical, but I can see why they did it," emotions, thought it was the right thing, etc. I thought Hoopla claiming PGO was a BAD logical move, but the logic was a bit complex, so I thought it was possible she just thought it was a good idea when it wasn't.Zachrulez wrote:No see, the issue is you said that you could see the reasoning behind her claim at first. (Which indicates it's logical.) After she rescinded the claim, you said it was illogical in an attempt to backtrack and rationalize your initial stance after the fact. The action you committed that was picked up on was quite clear.
The only thing crumbling around here is your vote. The initial vote was a paragraph that read like this:AGar wrote:Besides, I'm not going to vote Zach (who isn't coattailing as far as I can see) and redtail when you're starting to crumble already:
First he latched. *insert a lot of stuff about Vigging*
Except now you say the vigging isn't relevant, so the argument was
"He latched."
Real compelling.
In response to backtracking, there isn't any. I used part of your argument, part of my argument. Both were nessecary but not sufficent for the vote.
Or, if you insist there was backtracking, fine. My advocacy now is: both parts of the argument were necessary but not sufficient for the vote.
It was that if she's likely to bite doctors, she's also likely to bite scumkill, and the risk-reward was worth it.GnH wrote:AlmasterGM, I have read your posts a few times and I can't seem to understand what exactly you found illogical - was it Hoopla's claim itself or this justification for it: "Knowing me, I'd be likelier to attract doctors and investigation roles if I didn't claim, though"? From your first post it sounds like it's the latter while your following posts seem to suggest it's the former...
redtail later.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Ok. So do you think AGar's original vote on me (which was based soley on latching) was unfounded, then? What about Zach?redtail wrote:First of all, to the claim that I am latching: yeah, I suppose I am. And it will, of course, do no good to claim that I had independently come up with many of these points, and AGar simply beat me to the punch. I tried to differentiate my case as much as possible, but there's no getting around the fact that we had many of the same points. Such is life. You can't expect every single person on a wagon to come up with a unique, different case. That's neither reasonable or possible. At least I tried: Zach just copied my case and went with it.
You see, I actually agree with you that agreeing with other players isn't a bad thing. But other people don't agree with that and are being inconsistent about how they apply that standard (e.g., I'm scummy for using some of AGar's argument, but Zach isn't for posting "lol i agree." This makes no sense.
I don't get what the point of this argument is. Hoopla isn't even a PGO anymore. Why are my opinions on whether claiming PGO is a good or bad idea relevant?redtail wrote:1. 2 people that I'm happy to name: myself and Hoopla. I would bet others here would agree, but I don't want to speak for anybody. And there are any number of reasons to think it might be a logical move (as noted by Hoopla, a PGO claim that the town generally believes is rather bad for scum).
2. If you see the pros and cons of such a play, why are you saying that it's definitely illogical? There are logical reasons to do it. It got rid of RVS, and it gave us plenty of material to work with. Even without the unclaim, you don't get to just state that it was an illogical play. That's what I was objecting to.
If this debate actually matters, fine, we can sit around and argue. But it seems to me like this is 1) a theory smokescreen plopped in front of finding scum and 2) that the real issue is whether I changed my advocacy or not, not what the advocacy actually was. And the advocacy issue has already been addressed / is being debated below.
Yes.redtail wrote:From what I understand, what you really mean is, "VI's that are unreadable are Vigbait." Is that accurate.
If there is actually somebody else SCREAMING scum, then fine, you Vig them, but that usually isn't the case D1. AND OH LOOK, shotty is being a total moron and flipping between claiming scum and claiming town PR. Sounds like a mighty fine target for a VIGGIN'.
They are BOTH important and need each other to exist.redtail wrote:I didn't fully understand this section. Could you elaborate? At the time of the vote, you said the meta argument was the main reason, but now you claim that the claim was the main reason. Which is it? Because the way it was phrased, it didn't seem that both were "necessary but not sufficient."
Saying the argument was "mainly" about in prior posts was probably poor choice of words; I was merely trying to emphasize that AGar's argument alone was not enough to warrant the vote and that the other half of the analysis was cruically important.
If you think that this wasn't sufficiently outlined previously, then fine, feel free to think that I'm backpedaling. I'm not going to try and defend the semantics of my prior positions; I know what I meant and I am trying to be more clear now, but if it wasn't clear before and you don't get it now, there's nothing to be done. But what is more relevant is...
I don't get any of this line of attack. It's all like, lets hurl a thousand differnet poorly constructed arguments at AGM and see what happens. Why am I SCUM? Nobody has bothered to argue that at all except for Hoopla, and she's not even voting for me. WHOOSH.
VRK in particular, your vote is very uninformed, I addressed all of redtails argument in my previous post.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Three days later, he's still alive. WHAT DO?gonnano wrote:not really... even though the scum know that we know that they know ... etc., they still couldn't risk keeping a doctor around for more than a Day or two.
No.AGar wrote:Re: Almaster - I do believe he missed my new points about his repeated backtracking on multiple occasions. Thus, my entire case isn't latching.
Also, at one point your entire case WAS latching. That when away, so then you started on the backpedaling thing. It's like starting on one rock, then when that rock sinks into the water, you jump onto the next one.AlmasterGM wrote:In response to backtracking, there isn't any. I used part of your argument, part of my argument. Both were nessecary but not sufficent for the vote.
Or, if you insist there was backtracking, fine. My advocacy now is: both parts of the argument were necessary but not sufficient for the vote.
Cool story, bro. Maybe the game isn't so much boring as you are lazy and stupid.shotty wrote:Ok I have the flu and I am getting no enjoyment out of this game. Almaster is who I think is scum, but I don't have the energy to type out my whole case.
Hmm hmm. And people think Zach, VRK, and shotty are town ... because?gonnano wrote:Hoopla's wagon took 19 posts to get up to 4 votes.
Almaster's wagon took 5 posts to get up to three votes.
Other attempts to start wagons have stayed at or below two votes.
shotty especially. It's like, "crap wagon might form, QUICK LET ME RESTABILIZE AGM WAGON."
I don't like Hoopla's plan. At all. I'll accept the statistics that there is probably one protection role. However...
1) The probability of there being a relevant doctor save is low, especially if shotty is the one doing the saving.
2) shotty is a proven idiot and could still be lying town, meaning we out the doctor AND mislynch shotty.
3) The real value of the doctor comes from his secrecy. He can save claimed PRs, confirmed townies, and/or confirm people by stopping the scumkill. Trading away these benefits by revealing a real doctor so we can keep shotty around is a TERRIBLE trade. If shotty is doctor, scum will just roleblock him and we'll get nothing, not to mention the fact that shotty's stupidity makes him useless as a confirmed townie anyway.
In short, it's an elaborate form of rolefishing. Why Hoopla decided to do this could vary. She could be shotty's scumbuddy doing damage control, she could watto use all those statistics she compiled, or might legit think it is a good idea. I think
1) This is the second time Hoopla has made up some "plan" that revolves around town PRs.
2) If shotty is scum, Hoopla's plan looks VERY scummy.
3) If shotty is town, Hoopla probably is too. I don't see why scum-Hoopla would dig up stats that others were unlikely to produce in order to halt a mislynch on a VI.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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This alone makes me want to vote Elleren.Elleren wrote:Although I find Hoopla still dangerous and suspicious, my suspicion of her isn't solid. I am willing to single her out as an outstanding player within the group, but I am not confident enough to place a vote. I'm satisfied with watching for now.
But the fact that Hoopla is pushing the case makes me skeppptical.
Agreed.Agar wrote:In this post, G&H demonstrates the scummy tactics of not reading the entire thread, while projecting the same issue onto another player who is, by default, unlikely to be their buddy.
(ZOMG IM LATCHING).-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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This presumes that, if you are both scum, keeping shotty alive means anything at all to you. It doesn't. Shotty is a liability, and if there really is an 86% chance of there being a counterclaim, you know he's going to die at some point before the game is up anyway. Why would you let him sit around and do nothing for 2 days when you could just cash him in now for the identity of the town doctor?Hoopla wrote:In response to 2) - Are you kidding me? Going by the statistics, there is an 86% chance there is EXACTLY ONE protection role in the game. If I am scum with Shotty, he must be fakeclaiming, which means if this plan gains traction, there is an 86% chance of him being counterclaimed and then lynched.-
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Ooooh, scared?Elleran wrote:Whoa, I didn't even realize that I had 3 votes already.
MAKE IT 4.
Unvote. Vote: Elleran.
Also,FoS Zachfor tunneling on me like its his job.
Seriously, the only thing he has done the whole game is say, "lynch VI shotty" and "AGM is scum" while consistently trying to justify himself as little as humanly possible.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Oh really?Kid Know Nothing wrote:
Two out of three of these people have been actively hunting, for better or worse.AlmasterGM wrote:@drmyshottyizsik, Elleran, and Good and Honest
WHO ARE THE SCUM ANDWHY?
What's up with the recent need to dismiss people's comments as stupidity? Honestly, insults don't get you very far. Here's looking at you, Almaster and AGar.
That is the last vote / instance of scumhunting from Elleran. After that, she unvotes and does lot of fencesitting, "observing," and nothing. It was madeElleran wrote:First, your explanation sounds like it exempts AGar from your suspicions. Because you and AGar have played a game (or more) together before, you guys can easily read each other's meta and understand each other's strategy without direct PM or communication.
Second, I support lynching liars. I cannot disagree on your point that your claim/unclaim has brought many valuable discussion into place. However, I do not want to risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation. I understand this is a far-in-the-future argument, but lynching early poses less risk than later.
Third and finally, I support gonnano in his opinion on town having flexible mindset as well. I always try to play with an open mind, considering all possibilities. Perhaps some town characters might be more closed and some scums to be open/flexible, you cannot possibly assume that that is the case for all players. Your overarching assumption thus ceases to be a logical point but an opinionated assertion.
Vote Hoopla8 days ago.
And it wasn't even that good.
This is the last vote from shotty. It is contentless and has no juistification. Almost everything before that surrounding thatshotty wrote:I tried not to jump on the wagon, but you're just too scummy
unvote
Vote: Elleran8 daysconsists of one-line nothingness.
And Good & Honest's posts are nothing more than fluffy, incredibly wordy summaries / commentaries on events that have already happened. And she has never even put a vote down. Ever.
Show me the "active hunting" that two out of these three people have been doing. Please.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Of course it matters. It delays and confuses my results so that the scum can render me essentially useless before I can do anything. If I get a guilty and claim it, we mislynch and scum know to roleblock/kill me from then on, which is the MOST LIKELY scenario to occur (since most people in the game are going to be town). The only way I can be relevant is if 1) by some stroke of luck I investigate the godfather and get a guilty, 1/10 chance of that happening, or 2) I get 2-3 investigations in so that I have a handful of innocents AND guilties, and then we mislynch the guilty and THEN know I'm insane and lynch the real scum. By which point we are probably in lylo and going to lose anyway.hiphop wrote:Almaster-Does it really matter if you are insane or sane? You are a cop, who can use your role to find scum. Can you not? SSBF is a cop(so he says), who can use his role to find scum. Is there a difference? Seriously, look at the facts. Tell me the difference between SSBF and wicked. Who really is more scummy? Also I don't want to prove myself scum, if you cannot see the point, just forget about it.
So yeah, insane cop + deathmiller + godfather is PRETTY DIFFERENT from just sane cop.
And this matters because, in my opinion, SSBF is only marginally comparable to other scummy people in the game. Compare him and crypto - why is SSBF THAT much more scummy such that it's worth overlooking the cop issue?-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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So Elleran...redtail wrote:Elleran has been scumhunting. It's been almost entirely focused on Hoopla, and it's full of contradictions (see my previous posts/my vote), but it's been scumhunting. Lately he's been slacking off though.
1) Tunnels Hoopla
2) The arguments in the tunnel aren't good at all
3) And she hasn't even done either of those in over a week
I don't see how you two (redtail and KNK) can defend this.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Goooo semantics. Even using your definitions, he hasn't contributed anything for over a week at this point, and if you just use a general definition, I was completely accurate because even what he did "contribute" was pretty awful.KNK wrote:I didn't say he was hunting well or in a way that was beneficial. But saying that he has done no hunting at all isa misrepresentation. Do I think that Elleran's logic makes any sense? Not really. But to me, when someone says that someone hasn't been scumhunting, it means they haven't been contributing. Instead of attacking the weak points that Elleran has made, gonnano made a false attack to seem like he was adding something new to the case.
What I don't like is that you keep saying I'm "misrep-ing," which puts awful negative and offensive connotations onto an argument that is, at the core, just semantics.
Just because you are probably town doesn't give you a license to be useless the rest of the game.shotty wrote:Listen to him he herds noobies!!!
I am pretty indifferent to lynching G&H vs Elleren. However, if we are going to move the wagon, it has to happen soon. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think we have claims from Elleran or G&H, so the amount of time left to do something right now AND leave space for contingencies is REALLY small.-
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Man, if that's true, I feel bad for you, because this game is has more n00bs in it than the average newbie game. And the worst part is, unlike the newbie queue where they are trying to learn and improve, here people are just set on being anti town because they are dumb and think it's cool.VRK wrote:Gheez, I came here to get away from the Newbie queue for a while
ANYWAY, we have very little time to shift this wagon and G&H posts very inconsistently, so I think we should just proceed with the Elleren lynch. It's not like we're really settling for less, or anything.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Oh boy, only a short way into Day 2 and there's already votes on my two top suspects? It's like Christmas in the summer.
Vote: Zachrulez
I 100% agree that Zach was scummy as hell yesterday (and OH HEY, I was saying that over and over of yesterday buuut nobody cared) and his arguments today against ConfidAnon are bad as well. In addition to the contradiction, ConfidAnon really has nothing to gain from misrepping the hammer vote (like that isn't going to be fact checked), so trying to use that as offense against CA is just silly.
HOWEVER, If G&H doesn't get in here and fucking wow my socks off with some original analysis and a VOTE, then he can die die die. I completely disagree with redtail - the refusal to claim has nothing to do with town vs scum motivation because it does nothing for him regardless of his side ... so it's clearly just stupidity, which has nothing to do with alignment. And if you put that issue asside, you're left with a refusal to vote and a handful of obsolete, obfuscating text wall posts. Which is scummy.
ALSO SHOTTY JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PROBTOWN DOESN'T GIVE YOU A LICENSE TO BE A USELESS MORON. PLAY THE DAMN GAME YOU SIGNED UP FOR.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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I agree with Hoopla's graduate thesis because it makes a lot of sense from my perspective.
BUT, I disagree with the full scumteam call. I think G&H should replace either Vel or Kid Know Nothing. Probably Vel if I had to call it right now. There is absolutely NOTHING town about G&H. And I don't give a shit about his ONE GAME of meta. If he flips town this game, then fine he's a certified idiot whose username should be changed to Bad and Stupid, and I'll never play with him ever again. But objectively, right here and right now, he is WAY more likely to be scum.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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AlmasterGM
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In other news, do I ever loooove activity.gonnano wrote:Unfortunately I will be V/LA August 1-9, with the possibility of getting back the 8th or maybe even the 7th. Luckily, the way this works out with my timezone I should be able to post right up until the deadline of Day 1, be absent for the Night, and get right back in Day 2 soon after it starts.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Fine, but G&H's playstyle is still dumb and anti-town, don't you agree? Even if you "get it?"KKN wrote:And well, "For one, there's no reason why difference of opinions = scum"
Zach not being around for a full week is kinda problematic; in addition to being annoying, according to him, he won't be around to claim (if needed) until 4 days before the deadline. That's cutting it a BIT close in case we want to move things around, BUT I think so long as we have a suitable backup candidate lined up (*cough* G&H *cough*) then we will be fine.
Also, where's redtail? He hasn't posted since Tuesday.Mod, can we get a prod?-
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It's apt because if he actually would do it either way, then there is absolutely no way to determine whether he is town or scum. And seeing as he doesn't help town, lynching him is a good move.Hoopla wrote:His playstyle isn't scummy because I believe he'd do it as either alignment. It is very anti-town and damaging, and I am not usually an advocate for policy lynches, but this is one of the few times where I feel it would be apt.
And I don't even buy that he'd do it "either way." I think his play is pretty straight out scummy in this game. The end.
His day 1 play? Read it - it's pretty bad.redtail wrote:Also, what is your case on Zach beyond the vote analysis?-
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Read the rest of the game. I've been contributing plenty. That one post was clearly a mockery of Good and Honest designed to show why he is objectively scummy. And Good and Honest HAS been doing those things - he has been using a self-delcared meta to be anti-town, and even if he does offer some thoughts (most of which are outdated), he refuses to vote, answer questions, or tell us who the scum are. And then he tells us his play is "Good and Honest" in post one? No, no, no.Kid Know Nothing wrote:I'M GOING TO POST IN ALL CAPS WHILE CONTRIBUTING NOTHING TO THE CONVERSATION BUT RUDE OBSERVATIONS. EL OH EL OH EL.
Seriously Almaster, this is why I don't like you as town. G&H has not sat there and said "Look at me, I'm pro-town." Rather, he's been defending his play style as not being scummy. This post was completely unnecessary.
I've got that vote on Zach right now because he is way more scummy, but that has already basically been decided, so I'm spending most of my time today talking about Good and Honest.Kid Know Nothing wrote:Same to you Almaster. You have a vote, don't you? Use that to express your feelings over G&H's unwillingness to answer you. Same to you Hoopla.
Kid Know Nothing says he's not defending Good and Honest, but it is really starting to irk me that he always seems to find a way to attack me over my attacks on Good and Honest. Normally I'd say scum would be very wary of chainsawing, but if Good and Honest is scum, he supposedly can't lie, so the team might not have to choose between defending him or cutting him lose entirely. Chainsaw seems like an excellent way to resolve the differences between those two options, so if Good and Honest flips scum, Kid Know Nothing deserves a very, very close look.-
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Ugh, so many walls of text.
Fine, I'm being rude. I'm extremely annoyed by Good and Honest and so long as it doesn't cross "the line," I'm going to continue to be that way. Personally, I think the REAL rude one in this game is him, since everybody else here is playing as optimally as they can to win, whereas he is just playing to satisfy his own selfish desire to enjoy a "Good and Honest" playstyle.Good and Honest wrote:And in that one post and a few others, Almaster. You've been nothing but rude. You could have said that in a much more civil way.
I'll answer the questions, but I don't see how the "anti-town" sentiment doesn't apply with double the magnitude to Good and Honest. His playstyle is JUST AS IF NOT MORE anti-town, but you keep saying that "I can see where he's coming from," and things like that. Why is he allowed to have this self-declared meta but I'm not?Kid Know Nothing wrote:And again, exactly how have I been defending anything that has been asked of G&H? Do I hate it when three or more townies decide that they aren't going to answer someone's questions, thus limiting discussion, thus limiting the places I can look to find scum? You better believe it. The whole point of that is limiting conversation is scummy, and if not only scummy, it is most certainly anti-town.
You refuse to vote, which is OBJECTIVELY anit-town. I'm refusing to answer your questions, which you say is anti-town. Just because your username is Good and Honest doesn't excuse you making plays that are bad for the town. The reality is you are playing this way because you think it's more fun. Why can't I say "it's more fun to not answer G&H's questions," and then never answer them? What's the difference between those two?Good and Honest wrote:AlmasterGM, I might not have done exactly what you wanted me to but I still shared thoughts which were related to your question. You, on the other hand, continually neglect my questions/comments towards you.
And don't come back here and tell me you are contributing in different ways. I don't care. Refusing to vote is still anti-town because it doesn't let us do wagon analysis, which as Hoopla has demonstrated, is a large part of the game.
I don't care what your meta is, you deserve to be lynched Day 1 in every single game you ever play in until you stop with this nonsense playstyle.Good and Honest wrote:Regarding your comments towards me - did you actually look at my three other games, which I have linked to? In my opinion, the things you say I'm doing (or not doing) here are the same things that I've done (or not done) in my previous three games. If you find something about me in our current game which is different from my other games, you're welcome to say that.
About my "Good and Honest" playstyle - "good" means that I don't want to do "bad" things (this is mostly related to potential games where I'd be a mafioso); "honest" means that I don't want to lie - and later in post #456 you yourself state about me: "he supposedly can't lie". So I don't know what you're saying "No, no, no" to concerning my playstyle.[/quote]
What is a "bad" thing? Personally, I think your refusal to vote and the other rediculous aspects of your playstyle are "bad," as doeseverybody else in the game.
Because Kid Know Nothing is chainsawing. I have already explained why this would be an apt move between you two if you were scumbuddies.Good and Honest wrote:Also, AlmasterGM, you insist that Kid Know Nothing is "defending" me. First of all, if a player is defending another player, does that really reveal something about their roles? Second, even if certain posts by Kid Know Nothing can be counted as "defense", I think some of redtail896's posts can also be counted as "defense". Yet you have stated more than once that Kid Know Nothing is "defending" me but haven't said anything about redtail896 "defending" me. Why are you using such selectivity?
ANYWAY, NONE OF THIS EVEN MATTERS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE ARE LYNCHING ZACHRULEZ BECAUSE HE IS SCUM.-
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AlmasterGM Mafia Scum
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Using that logic, none of us should ever vote and then we will never lynch an innocent townsperson.Good and Honest wrote:AlmasterGM, it's not my intention at all to be rude. I'm sad if you perceive it that way. About my unwillingness to vote being "detrimental to the town" - in my other game with drmyshottyizsik, I have argued that this is actually detrimental to the MAFIA - because it makes it more difficult for the mafia to lynch innocent townspeople.
Except that doesn't work, does it, because then we will never lynch scum either and we will eventually lose. This is why your playstyle is selfish. If only one person (you) does it, then everyone can get by, but if multiple people start playing like you, the game degrades into nothing.
PROVE ME WRONG. I DARE YOU. I WILL ARGUE ABOUT THIS FOREVER.
Wrong. Your playstyle is anti-town. Everybody else in the game says so, and if you make a poll in MD, everybody there will say so too. You are playing this way because YOU want to, and so you are selfish.I'm not playing this way simply because it's "more fun" - if I play like most people play, I won't have ANY fun. Will you have NO fun at all if you answer my questions? After all, Mafia is a social game - i.e., there should be interactions between the players. If someone refuses to interact with someone else, that makes the game less interesting, I think.
And to answer your question, yes, actually. Answering your questions is not at all fun and if I didn't feel an obligation to this game I signed up for I would never read anything written by you or talk to you again ever in my life.
Other things matter, but not when the other things become the main topic for debate and the primary lynch candidate slips into the shadows and evaporates. Which is WHAT IS HAPPENING.I have to say, AlmasterGM, that I completely disagree with your idea - "We're lynching Zachrulez and nothing else matters". It certainly does matter to have an ongoing discussion about what is happening in our game.
He usually doesn't suck so much and act so scummy.By the way, I find it interesting that you say: "Zach's play is uncharacteristically bad". Would you explain what about Zachrulez's way of playing in this game is different than usual?-
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But that's the problem. You CAN'T case him, because 1) he never votes, so there's no wagon analysis and 2) anytime he does something that would normally be considered scummy, he writes it off as part of his self-declared Good and Honest meta.redtail wrote:I am unwilling to lynch G&H until somebody presents a case that doesn't reduce to a policy lynch. Actually, I might present that case; I think G&H's logic has a bunch of holes (some of which I was trying to point out above), but I don't think it's the best thing to do with this little time left.-
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Go ahead and try, but I'll bet you a large sum of money that if you try and catch him doing anything, he either 1) bury it in a giant text wall with some sort of vague question or fluff-response as a rebuttal or 2) tell you that it's part of his playstyle.
Case in point - everybody agrees that his ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE is anti-town and predicated on BAD LOGIC, yet he ignores us all and keeps feeding off lines about how he HAS to be Good and Honest.-
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AlmasterGM
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Ok.
First of all, sorry Hoopla, but your gambit was pretty obv. If I were mafia running against it, I would've played into it instead of just fakeclaiming (or at least strongly considered doing so). Chances of gunsmith + cop is low, and claiming Vig when there haven't been any shots is also weird. Thus, I don't buy your argument that redtail is cleared. If he's scum, simply protesting that he didn't have a gun and praying for a diversion seems like the optimal play.
Second, I don't get why you investigated gonnano. After D1, gonnano seemed very town. You say you wanted to clear up the Elleran wagon, but I simply do not understand why you would choose to gunsmith on one of the most townie people on board. I also question the logic of choosing the Elleran wagon in general; I feel like that gunsmith shot could have been much better utilized on somebody like VRK, who is lying far off the radar.
Finally, I don't like the way you are engineering the rest of this to play out. You are currently claiming gunsmith. If you're telling the truth, then scum have to deal with you. They aren't going to go hunting for other PRs. There is no reason we wouldn't off-put the massclaim until tomorrow so we have the chance to get more information.
But all that said, I don't see why you would fakeclaim gunsmith, since if you lie, you would just lynched tomorrow. Hrm. Gonnano does look like scum, then, I suppose.
For my scum picks, I still think Good and Honest is a good lynch. Zach's attacks on himreekof last-ditch bussing. Zach might have been playing poorly, but he's not an idiot. I think he knew he was going to be in trouble D2. Good and Honest himself is impossible to evaluate because he never does anything, so I think we have to consider that interaction really strongly. We also have this interaction:
This comes after gonnano has a series of interactions with G&H that garner both content and indicate that gonnano thinks G&H looks a bit scummy. He then drops G&H almost entirely on D2, at least in terms of scumhunting him. Given Hoopla's investigative result on gonnano, this mysterious "interact-but-then-drop-it-for-no-reason" tact by gonnano looks pretty bad for the two of them.gonnano wrote: I would strongly advise against lynching G&H today, though. I would much rather proceed with the Elleran lynch and discuss G&H more during Day 2.-
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