Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[PaltryExcuse]

Hey yo. Friendly neighbourhood replacement for Deer. I'll catch up as soon as I can.

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 1 --

The VibeBox vs. Empking battle feels very much town vs. town. (EDIT: Actually, the conversation gives me a better feeling on VibeBox than the one who we now know is town.)
I entirely get the attack on Jag Johan. I had started writing up a small analysis on the matter only to learn he was the Day 1 lynch and town after looking back to Page 1. Guh.

Thief’s attack on Yabba leaves much to be desired. :S To me, it seems he is isolating yabba in order to find scumminess rather than reading the game and coming across it.

Where did Chevre go? Chevre disappeared after putting in their RVS vote, and then their returning post is… mediocre… at best.

When SSBF replaces in, the game really kicks off.
Thief accuses Mr. Sandman of tunnelling with a weak case when defending himself… something I was finding earlier when Thief was attacking Yabba. If it’s scummy for Mr. Sandman, it has got to be scummy for Thief. A bit of scum seeing themselves in someone else? Either way, I feel Mr. Sandman was on the right track with this one.

This post is ridiculous. You search for ‘fence sitting’ in the responses to RedStar’s RQ’s. I implore EVERYONE to read Chevre’s opinions on the players in the game. There are TONS of ‘Neutral-leanings’. That is true fence sitting IMHO. On this post alone I’d be willing to lynch Chevre. Compare Chevre’s ‘leaning-scum’ feel on Thief to how sure Chevre is later on here when comparing him to SSBF.

Unsight’s ISO 1 gives me good feelings.

Neither Thief’s presumed L-1 vote nor yabbaguy’s presumed hammer give me good feelings.
For Thief, it is the sucking up to Pie_is_good. Pie’s SSBF comments are valid, however Unsight’s and the previous case made by VibeBox on Jag are much stronger and is the real reason I’d have been okay with a Jag lynch. The fact he admits to being on a fail wagon (fail wagon = bad case no?) because Pie says so is more sucking up. It was, IMO, Thief’s only independent action thus far and he was willing to give it up so easily.
For Yabba, it is the fact he admits he supports wagons to get a lynch. A.k.a., less sticking to his guns and more playing follow the leader.

Day 1 Suspicions --

Chevre: Seriously, wow. Chevre’s uninformative post after disappearing for awhile is subpar. Pie’s comments on Chevre were spot on about their sudden response to being called out as lurking. Their analysis post still bothers me greatly. Overall, I’m betting scum.

Yabbaguy: Although I doubt, highly, that Thief and Yabba are both scum, his ‘hammer’ vote post (though not actually a hammer) is ucky. IIRC correctly he’s been on the major wagons late and been elsewhere little. This bandwagonning is a sign of scum IMHO.

Thief: The interaction with Mr. Sandman and the vote against are two major points against him. I have trouble seeing his perspective on anything, and can only attribute that to a scum perspective. However, what bothers me is my other two scum reads have both been either attacked by or are attacking Thief. I could attribute this to early game bussing though, and Thief still reads scummy to me.

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I'll have more up later (a.k.a. reading Day 2), hopefully today, but it might be tomorrow.

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@Mod: Just a suggestion. Though I'm not the most experience modder (I have one whole game to my credit... woo) I try to put a votecount at least every day, or on every page. Just an idea for clarity's and re-reading sake (and vote analysis ).

[offtopic]@Yabba: My word processor wants to autofix your name to Cabbage and it made laugh. I am tempted to call you Cabbage for the remainder of the game.[/offtopic]

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 2 -

The bandwagon of Thief:
Unsight, yABBAGUY, VibeBox & Chevre (oh lookie here!) all come off rather bad. L-2 in the first three posts? L-1 on the first page? There was no case / questions for Thief just votes. I’d expect even a reference to previous cases or asking him to explain certain actions but there was just votes. Unsight surprised me after his case on Jag being so thorough and just opening up the day with a vote with no explanation. The other three surprised me more due to the speed and willingness to set-up a quick lynch. (yabbaguy less here as he was vote #2)

@All (especially Unsight): Why do you find Thief scummy?
@Chevre: Who beyond Thief do you find scummy? Seeing as you’re convinced Thief is scum, who are his buddies (and why)?

With the likely possibility of an SK, mass-claiming seems like a good idea. SK and Mafia have to be consistent with their claims and any discrepancies can be caught. Considering we’re one bad day and night from a possible 3-2-1 scenario, we need people to be accountable for their actions. With two killing roles, any information gleaned the previous night is vital IMO. Be forwarned… I’ve never participated in a mass claim before so this is all speculative. From what I do know, popcorning is an effective and easy way of doing it.

Back on track, although Thief was scummy day 1 the uber-wagon that has been built is not pretty.
Tl;dr - The wagon is scummy. (I mean, Chevre is there.)

This post by yabba throws out way too much WIFOM for my liking. And this post and the response made me rethink things on VibeBox. In my experience, mindless and aimless discussion actually allows the mafia to hide while being active. Putting in ‘their two cents’ while actually providing nothing or just distracting from the issue at hand.

@VibeBox: What beyond discussion were you hoping to gain? As in, what in RedStar’s posting could have been insightful?

Thief’s claim:
If we’re mass claiming, I’ll save my comments for later as his claim directly involves yours truly.

However, I don’t like yabb’s instant assertion that he is a Mafia Tracker. If an SK exists Tracker is a fine role for town, and the only SK-mini I’ve ever played had two Macho Docs and a weakened version of a Tracker. A tracker sounds plausible to me and the role itself is not as weak as he’s making it.

Either way, this all pales in comparison to Chevre:
VOTE: Chevre

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Bandwagonning, Paltry, I don't see how that's a tell when I was suspicious, IIRC, of Jag/SSBF and Thief from the get go. I refuse to believe I was accelerating the Day by wagonning like that, yes, I was close to bringing the Day to an end, but did not feel like a wagon would deprive us of valuable discussion time. I hopped on the major wagons yes, but with a good case on both, I thought.

It’s not your bandwagonning alone that makes you suspicious. Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning and revealed something of your voting style in this game. When a wagon was dying, you left. Not because you didn’t think your target wasn’t scummy anymore, but because you couldn’t convince people to join it? You are bandwagonning for the sake of looking like everyone else. It’s not a good thing. I don’t understand why you weren’t pushing your stronger scum read over anything else.

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Note to Thief about your preferred claiming order: RealityFan is dead, and Mr. Sandman is alive (and being replaced). Does that change your order?

@Mod: Vote count, deadline and maybe prods to let everyone know the site is back?

[PaltryExcuse]

Unvote: Thief

, but

FoS: Thief

yabbaguy has already pointed out that your Tracker target makes little sense, but since there has been no counterclaim yet, I'm unvoting you.

This is a mini, there isn't necessarily going to BE a tracker CC (there might not be a tracker), and even if there is one it's difficult to assess whether or not there is two (but for balancing purposes I doubt two town trackers). Long story short: if you believe he is scum, you should have your vote on him. Since the wagon is losing a bit of steam, are you not as gung ho?

Either way, who else do you believe is scum?

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@Pie: If I understand where you're coming from: Scum would want to pursue an aimless lead (aka RedStar's ISO) in order to distract? That's what I see as scummy about the Vibe comment.

@All: Are we continuing with a mass claim? If so, the popcorn method (the person who claims chooses the next to claim and so on) is the only one I really know of (beyond a trusted / confirmed town member choosing an order).

[PaltryExcuse]

This is pretty much the territory you have to delve into if you're going to figure out whether or not massclaiming is right.

Why exactly? As I said, I'm not familiar with mass claiming personally.

Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning

How? You seem to be, for whatever reason, upset at the fact that my perceived objective was just to wagon for the sake of ending the Day. You're partially correct, I was sure (clearly wrong now) that my top 2 were scum, and could afford a lynch on either, hence why I seesawed between the two. I didn't see a reason why D1 should've continued beyond then, and I think if anything, I should be given a medal for putting an end to an overly-drawn out Day. It's not accelerating the Day (I agree, a scumtell) if town apathy has set in like it did.

I was wagonning recklessly, but I wanted either one of my suspects lynched, and could not stand to see D1 go on any longer.

Fair enough if it's true. I have learned after a recent newbie game that there is such a thing as too much talk / town stagnation and it can hurt towns to not end days sooner.

@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did?

You don't even know if I went anywhere as of yet. It was doubt on his claim for odd reasons. Trackers can help town just as easily, and along with the earlier rapid L-1 wagon it feels as though scum is trying to push a quick day. In other words: Thief was the only person being looked at beyond Pie's VibeBox case.

Do you disagree that Deer was not a good choice to investigate?

My other top suspect would be Red Star/replacement.

Why exactly?

[PaltryExcuse]

@Chevre:

Where did Chevre go? Chevre disappeared after putting in their RVS vote, and then their returning post is… mediocre… at best.

This post is ridiculous. You search for ‘fence sitting’ in the responses to RedStar’s RQ’s. I implore EVERYONE to read Chevre’s opinions on the players in the game. There are TONS of ‘Neutral-leanings’. That is true fence sitting IMHO. On this post alone I’d be willing to lynch Chevre. Compare Chevre’s ‘leaning-scum’ feel on Thief to how sure Chevre is later on here when comparing him to SSBF.

This is the main part of the problem with your play so far Chevre. Especially that one post. Responding to how a town member who's searching for fence sitting could sit the fence so well in the SAME post is awesome sauce.

@VibeBox: Please come back and choose next claimer. Popcorn claiming continues.

[PaltryExcuse]

Your case

is ridiculous.

I forced myself

to put them leaning something. True fence-sitting would have been merely saying "neutral" for everyone one. And I couldn't put "SCUM" or "TOWN" for every persone either; I was NEVER that sure. I took my slightest gut feelings and used them to make sure they weren't neutral. I feel like your entire case doesn't represent my play, and it doesn't make sense.

The bolded part is the scary part. Long story short: you were fence sitting on the entire town and then in order to look like you were not you edited yourself. I would've preferred something to the effect of "there's a lot of noise, and it's effecting my reads on some people" but this 'neutral-leaning' is ineffective and easy to hide behind.

Would a Thief scum-flip affect your position on RedStar? As in, are there connections between Thief and RedStar that affects your position on the other?

[PaltryExcuse]

I wanted to put everyone somewhere that was not neutral.

I wanted to have an opinion that was at least somewhat one way or the other. And why would I have said what you wanted me to say? That would've been a lie. My stances gave other players my opinions and a good starting point.

As for your completely unrelated question, no.

The bolded part again. Why not keep them neutral if you felt you didn't have a read on them?

[PaltryExcuse]

@yabbaguy: Do you think it likely scum-Thief would choose his scum partner to go next in claiming?

[PaltryExcuse]

@yabbaguy - What do you think of the Chevre wagon PaltryExcuse and Thief are pushing? That is, do you agree/disagree with their reasons for voting Chevre?

What do you think about it, Unsight?

MrSandman- blank read. I'd like to think he's pro-Town,

esp. with sorasgoof's flake-out

, but really, I haven't any idea

??? for the bolded part. What does sorasgoof's flake-out have to do with anything?

[PaltryExcuse]

I want to choose Red_Star, but I'm not sure if we should wait for a reply/replacement. Opinions on this?

I kinda feel like this game will stagnate until we get claims from everyone... so I want it to continue. I vote you choose someone else. You're number 3 scum read maybe?

[PaltryExcuse]

EBWOP:

I want to choose Red_Star, but I'm not sure if we should wait for a reply/replacement. Opinions on this?

I kinda feel like this game will stagnate until we get claims from everyone... so I want it to continue. I vote you choose someone else.

Your

number 3 scum read maybe?

Good god I'm ridiculously ashamed of myself.

[PaltryExcuse]

Sorry about the slight absence. Just started a new job and needed to get settled.

I've read up, but don't have much time for a post. Lynch Chevre now!

Claim: Vanilla Townie

Thief's claim stands (and considering the lack of PR claims I'd wager that generally clears him).

[PaltryExcuse]

@MOD: I'm gonna be V/LA until Monday.

[PaltryExcuse]

I don't know how Zero isn't town. In my mind, Zero cannot be SK, I can't be SK, Thief is not SK. SK must lie somewhere in Vibe, yabba, and Pie.

If I remember some MD topic, (I'd have to find it, but currently my internet access is limited), 9-1-2 is much more common than 8-1-3. It makes me lean towards 9-1-2, but this kind of stopped me as I suddenly have the impression yabba knows something about the mod that I don't that would imply odd setups. With 9-1-2, it clears ZeroFang of all guilt, and the ONLY way he is scum is 8-1-3. ZeroFang is likely town in my mind.

but I wouldn't it past Azelf to put something oddball in the setup

I'll be trying to get on as much as possible, but my basement just had a small flood so my access is very much limited (it happened on Canada day weekend ).

@Mod: I'm not voting for VibeBox. Pie is.

If I go on my late day 2 read, I'd be voting Yabba, but I want a more thorough read before I do so. Later peeps.

Herpderp names with P in them

[PaltryExcuse]

I have to ask yabba: Are you pushing for a Zero lynch today?

[PaltryExcuse]

I want to lynch a scum target today. End of. If it is 3-1-8, town's already in deep, and we need to hope for crosskilling + mafia lynch.

Your question to Azelf at the beginning of this day has me intrigued however. What did you hope to gain by asking it?

@Mod: If PR/Mafia/SK have a night action but don't submit, are their actions compulsive (as in you choose the target randomly instead)?

^^
Depending on the mod's answer, I could change my view of VibeBox. If it's not obvious, I think he's flaked and if he has (and night actions don't go through) that takes another out of the running in my 9-1-2 scenario. (It'd weed things down to yabba and Pie for a lynch for me.)

I still have a town read on Vibe that has faltered with new information, but nothing that compels me to jump wholeheartedly on the wagon.

[PaltryExcuse]

Whoa, my basement floods and this game dies save Pie and yabba... two whom I would be willing to vote for. I'm still convinced the two killers the night previous were Pie and Yabba. It has been a matter of deciphering who is SK and who is Mafia. In case of the 8-1-3 possibility, it is imperative we hit mafia, so I'm going to look at Chevre closer.

Just on a IIRC-basis: I don't remember Yabba even mentioning Chevre in any form before I entered, and I think Pie called her scummy. This makes me think Yabba is more likely Mafia and should be today's lynch. Be back soon.

[PaltryExcuse]

yabbaguy & Chevre:

Chevre- I demand you reread. There's so much more you can infer from 5 pages. Don't you think Thief's case on me is contrived to the point of scumminess? What else?

This is possible coaching.

Chevre: I don't see much activity coming from her in this game.

Ridiculous. Chevre, me, and at most 2 other people were the ONLY people posting at one point.

From what I can tell, it was a very short time span, and there have been more series of posts where Chevre remained silent rather than vocal.

Otherwise, there's not much.

Pie is next on the agenda.

[PaltryExcuse]

Pie only mentions her twice, both in his second post.
Firstly, when giving his overall reads, and then the ending summary.

-Mild scum read on Chevre. Did anyone else notice how, when "accused" of activity, she defended it like it was a legit attack? Made me that, on some level, she's actively trying to shirk attention.
.
.
.
Chevre is scum for shirking attention.

This is not wiffle-waffle or anything of that sort. Chevre is flat-out accused by Pie.

Looking at Vibe in the last post, and then a summary.

[PaltryExcuse]

Holy crap. That one post by Vibe quoted by yabbaguy above is all Vibe ever says to Chevre before I enter. And after that, he calls Chevre's L-1 vote awful (June 8th), but doesn't really do anything about it (June 18th). This is after my case is laid out on Chevre (June 16th).

The worst (read:scummiest) person-to-person interaction with Chevre out of those three are VibeBox => yabbaguy => Pie_is_good.

Fuck.

@yabbaguy: I'm seeing the simulposts. I just want to get my thoughts out first.

[PaltryExcuse]

Here's what I think is plausible for an 8-1-3 scenario: (In other words, it is currently 3-1-2)
Since there are no cops, I'm assuming NK-immune SK in this case.
I need:
A) Lynch Mafia (3-1-1)
B) Crosskilling (3-1 the next day)
C) Lynch SK (3-0!)

9-1-2 scenario: (In other words, it is currenty 4-1-1)
Still probably NK-immune SK.
A) Lynch scum (4-1)
B) Town dies (3-1)
C) Town lynches remaining scum (either during the MYLO or the LYLO)

Killing mafia is imperative for the 3-1-2 scenario, but killing SCUM is important for the 4-1-1.

VibeBox received my prod, but didn't respond to it or show up here. I'll prod him again, and if he doesn't respond to this one I'll replace him.

I obviously missed this which puts Vibe back into contention. Especially considering he had pressure on him so early in the day (pressure flake?). Going to do one last read through of today's comments and then I'll vote.

[PaltryExcuse]

Uh, actually before I vote I want a prod sent out to ZeroFang and to hear from him.
So,

@Mod: Please prod ZeroFang.

Thanks.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ah, fudge it.
VOTE: VibeBox
He is reading scum to me now.

[PaltryExcuse]

Enh, had to take the chance. I assumed that beyond some crazy shenanigans we'd likely win. I was 100% sure yabbaguy was SK after ZeroFang had a clear on him (without Vibe's flip).

Some real comments on Day 1:
SSBF was pro-town in my eyes. Jag Johan was not. It would have been a difficult balance, but the reason why my Chevre attack was so effective was (as I knew) Chevre was acting scummy. That one post where the word neutral appears 15 thousand times combined with him calling another player out for wishy-washy is what I look for often.

@Thief: Netting scum with scumhunting is just as fine as netting scum with a PR. I'd argue the first takes more skill. Acting scummy to save your own life made it so you had to claim, and if we massclaimed and I fakeclaimed a PR I would've been in trouble. Still, you made the game amusing when it died down at times.

@Unsight: You were so pro-town I thought you might be SK.

@Pie: Was fun being scum with you. Do you think the massclaim helped us or town? I'd say it helped us in this case. Are you still pro-massclaim?

@yabbaguy: Good playing of the SK. I thought you were just a scummy townie for Day 1&2. Who knew? I have to ask though, why did you kill such pro-town targets? In a mini I would think an SK would be searching for mafia first in order to wittle them down.

@Chevre: I'm a bit sorry I led the lynch on you, but less since you get to join in the win.

@Azelf: Thanks for modding and keeping with it despite numerous replacements. It was a pleasure.

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh, and I'm fine with the Night 2 & 3 QT being released if Pie is. I guess Mafia communicated by PM on night 1 instead.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Azelf: Who did Jalyn protect Night 2? I was hoping it was me as I was definitely worried about being killed.

At this point, I almost have to push massclaim or people will scream meta.

I like how I don't really have a reputation (that I know of).

I should've killed Paltry, bottom line.

[PaltryExcuse]

Pie didn't target anyone Night 2. He didn't get the night action in.

Just a note: Mafia didn't get to decide who sent in the kill.
Night 1: Chevre
Night 2: Me
Night 3: Pie (as well as a roleblock of you, yabba)