Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Elmo]

vote goatrevolt

[Elmo]

Goatrevolt is moving the game forward and part of me wants to say he's slightly townish, but I don't know if it's warranted. I wonder if Elmo could comment on this.

He's prolly town

unvote vote ectomancer

(this is me not making a waffle post since you found that scummy last time fwiw)

[Elmo]

It was Patrick, there was this post in Satin Doll Showdown where I waffled and I keep thinking he said it was scummy but then I remember he told me he didn't (I think?)

I think you did say something about waffling in reference to my stance on Adel in Tofu Day 2 tho.

[Elmo]

I'm entralled with my vote, I just can't remember why I put it there

[Elmo]

An unaccompanied random vote I can handle, but staying entirely out of discussion until somebody specifically asks for his opinion is just bad form.

Why?

[Elmo]

hmm

mini-fos: ectomancer

unvote vote nabakovnabakov

[Elmo]

wtf is guarded and gross about answering questions?

[Elmo]

How am I supposed to know what you consider important?

[Elmo]

Oh, okay.

I don't find anything important thus far.

[Elmo]

:goodposting:

My wariness at the moment is because in the game so much of day 1 was spent discussing the mechanics, and

he pretty much completely snowed me

.

As in what?

[Elmo]

all aboard!

I think popsofctown is town, fwiw.

[Elmo]

Greetings, myself and my associate Nabakov are your assigned nightkill provision officers for this game, please don't hesitate to ask us if you have any enquiries

[Elmo]

You've even got the little Cookie Monster trollface going on. I love it. XD

Ain't it cute?

When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Dunno where this is true.

p.s. The music for this is really damn catchy.
p.p.s. Out of curiosity, why do you think you started out referring to me as she?

[Elmo]

The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

No, c'mon Jah, think about it - I'd never be this anti-town if I was actually scum

[Elmo]

When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Dunno where this is true.

Care to elaborate on... anything?

{words}

If you want to get technical, then I suppose that's an elaboration of a previous game.

Clarification was not elaboration last time I consulted a dictionary.

I certainly don't want to speak for NabNab, but I thought it was pretty apparent he was referring to your vote.

I confess that "care to elaborate on anything?" referring specifically to my vote on him was not apparent to me. I actually thought it was rhetorical, but I figure #145 woulda answered it if not.

I honestly confused you for someone else, initially.

Haha, awesome.

[Elmo]

Elmo knows what he's doing

News to me.....

[Elmo]

I'd definitely be willing to lynch someone on the first day who I thought was

actively

hurting the town's chances at victory, because that's the best time to do so.

Would that include someone who literally wasn't posting anything (and wouldn't be replaced or killed under the ruleset)? It seems very difficult to actively hurt the town's chances outside of something like MAD Mafia or so. (Posting too

much

?)

That's cute. If you want to be obstinate, that's you're call. I'm just calling it how I see it.

(shrug) I'll generally answer specific questions, and I intend everything that I write to be clear and will clarify things if asked to. I just don't (for whatever reason) think there's much value in spontaneously volunteering 'content' at the present.

Funny, I was just talking to Ecto about that. It seems like you haven't found anything worthwhile this game, and yet you've already got a few townies picked out. That's pretty impressive, so what's your secret?

Well, Goat said he's passive as scum and he's not being passive so he's town, and Patrick is always town so he's town, and popsofctown said he posts fluff as town and he's posting fluff so he's town. I think. I know he does it as scum too, but it's more likely he's town, so.

Jahudo - Unless he's decided to shed his busing meta, he's probably town if Nabakov is scum. Weak read, though.

What do you think of what he's written (how much, what on)? Especially

popsofctown is aware of his fluff meta, and I think he could use it as scum to try and hide behind this null tell. I don't mind some of his jokes, as long as he doesn't use it to deflect from attention. Post 99 looks like deflection. I think he tried to redirect Goat's feelings about him into the fluff posting tell. unvote; Vote: popsofctown

that? You put him down as ?? but don't seem to be looking into him much, relatively speaking.

I'm trying to dig out the case on pops but it may 'ave to wait until tomorrow.

[Elmo]

Posting Review

Goatrevolt - 33 (Score = 1.78)
popsofctown - 29 (Score = 1.56)
Ectomancer - 28 (Score = 1.51)
Incognito - 21 (Score = 1.14)
SerialClergyman - 20 (Score = 1.08)
NabakovNabakov - 17 (Score = 0.92)
Elmo - 17 (Score = 0.92)
McGriddle - 16 (Score = 0.86)
Patrick - 13 (Score = 0.70)
RedCoyote - 11 (Score = 0.59)
Jahudo - 10 (Score = 0.54)
iamausername - 7 (Score = 0.38)

Total: 222 posts over 162 hours; 222 / 12 = 18.5 post / person --> score(n) = 18.5 / n.

I quite like clowns.

[Elmo]

Not directly.. I'm mostly checking my perception of how much people are posting. It was useful, I was quite off on some people - I figure it helps if everyone can use that.

Let me try something..

[Elmo]

Goatrevolt - 33 (Score = 1.78)

popsofctown - 29 (Score = 1.56)

Ectomancer - 28 (Score = 1.51)

Incognito - 21 (Score = 1.14)

SerialClergyman - 20 (Score = 1.08)

NabakovNabakov - 17 (Score = 0.92)

Elmo - 17 (Score = 0.92)

McGriddle - 16 (Score = 0.86)

Patrick - 13 (Score = 0.70)

RedCoyote - 11 (Score = 0.59)

Jahudo - 10 (Score = 0.54)

iamausername - 7 (Score = 0.38)

---

Day 1, Vote Count #10

NabakovNabakov

-

5

(

Elmo

,

Goatrevolt

,

SerialClergyman

,

iamausername

,

McGriddle

)

popsofctown

-

2

(

Incognito

,

Jahudo

)

McGriddle

-

2

(

NabakovNabakov

,

RedCoyote

)

Goatrevolt

-

1

(

Patrick

)

SerialClergyman

-

1

(

popsofctown

)

Not Voting

-

1

(

Ectomancer

)

Oooh, pretty.

[Elmo]

post count has always been a terrible metric of actual contribution.

What do you think of iamausername & Jahudo's level of contribution?

[Elmo]

vote Elmo on the Adel syndrome scum tell.

Problem: I'm not Adel?

[Elmo]

And your perception is? Do you have any A to go with your I?

I thought SC and Ecto were posting less than they are, I thought you were posting more. I knew Jah / iam weren't posting much, but I wasn't sure how much.

I had the impression that a bunch of people joining the NabNab wagon hadn't been posting much, it turns out that's not true of SC but it is true of iam and McG (albeit he's a bit V/LA). Also, the bottom four people by posts are all voting different people, I had an inkling something like that was the case. I also distinctly remember popsofctown being really lurky, the fact he's posting so frequently (I looked, a lot of it isn't fluff) stands out for me - I'd check his previous games if I were more enterprising. I also find it interesting that no-one in the bottom 4 is being voted, tho not really sure what to make of it.. not happy that Jahudo doesn't seem to be getting any heat at this point.

I personally find 236 helpful 'cuz activity is important and there's no way to look at it other than actually counting posts. The rainbow was partly just an experiment, partly to try and quantify some beliefs I had.

What I'm now interested in is the contrast between RedCoyote's treatment of me and iam/Jahudo. Hrm.

[Elmo]

But making

busy

charts and graphs that let you stick around because people think you are "working" is what makes someone scum.

Maybe you could take a poll of who thought I was working really hard based on that post.

It is just doubly bad when Elmo hasn't made a contribution and puts this up as his offering of effort.

It's, uh, not. I did it because I wanted to look at activity, then I posted it because there's no reason not to. There's nothing that can reasonably be interpreted as me going OMG HERE'S SOME AWESOME ANALYSIS, I AM TOTALLY TOWN .

[Elmo]

While I like this post, I still don't like the fact that it had to be dragged out of you. Maybe it is just your playstyle.

I really don't know why you equate asking me a question with dragging stuff out of me. You asked me a question, I answered it. (It's actually a shitty post, but whatever floats your boat.)

Why wasn't there any analysis? Why is Elmo afraid to put himself out there? I'm glad he got something out of it, but, again, it was only because it was forced out of him.

This is really really bad.

This is wrong just by virtue of the fact that you said you had an opinion about it, but you declined to give it to us.

Did not!

[Elmo]

I have a rainbow list of my own, but its a scummy to town list, and hot to cold: (In order from most scummy [Red] to least scummy [Blue]

Pops

{...}

RedCoyote

iamusername

I'm pretty interested in these.

RedCoyote:

Besides that I have bad feelings about Goat and Patrick, I'll elaborate if I think they're scummy or just playstyle things I've noticed. Ima, Ecto and Red look pretty town.

What do you get out of this compared to what you said about me?

[Elmo]

willing to close this thread and not open it again until the 26th

would actually do this, only I'd get prodded and shit.

Honestly, with the

bankable deadlines

that I'd like to point out so as to provoke discussion about how best to use them, I'm not entirely sure why we're waiting tbqh.

RedCoyote: I'm serious, it's shitty because there's nothing good about it; it's wasted bytes as far as I'm concerned. I didn't say there wasn't a difference between that and my previous posts.

It's more "Elmo's afraid to post analysis and only did because of being forced to" that's really really bad. Like, wat.

At least in, say, the last week, I find it very difficult to know why Jahudo has the opinions he does. My impression is that he's updated his views, and I don't think you know why, but aren't pressing him for any kind of information. That would be kind of weird in context. More generally, I find it kinda hard to swallow that idea that you're so het up about me and yet don't seem to be very curious at all about Iam / Jah, not even considering them viable alternative lynches when, subjectively, I think their contribution (in terms of making cases / taking positions) and involvement (trying to make interesting stuff happen) is pretty sub-standard, definitely should be enough to evoke ire from you based on what you said earlier. I mean you can break out the rhetoric and go OMG THEY'RE AT LEAST SAYING STUFF, but what they've put out is extremely meh at best and you don't seem to be showing much if any interest.

I should probably replace out. Meh.

[Elmo]

For me, I think it's

{post count}

probably a good indicator of how high a person's sig:noise ratio might be.

I think you can make an argument for that. Personally, I think it's important on it's own - I think that, for the same amount of 'content' (however you define it) it helps a townie to post more frequently, and they're more likely to do so. Should be fairly obvious why.

Coyote:

But I don't mind showing my work:

So this looks really similar to "not posting reasoning until asked to" (i.e. dragging it out of him, ZOMG) to me. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Did you read his posts?

lol.

[Elmo]

This is because I was talking to RedCoyote.

[Elmo]

And there's a lot of it!

[Elmo]

You are. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. It's not bad because it's true:

It's not a question of making it clear, I understood what you were saying. It's just that it's bad. I'm not afraid of anything. (shrug)

If that's not being forced to do something, then I don't know what is.

There's quite a distance between asking someone to do something and forcing them to. I mean, in the context of mafia, the most obvious example would be a bunch of people saying "do this or we'll lynch you". Incognito saying "hey, do you draw anything from that?" is rather different.

As far as the claim goes, I'd like to see if there's any breadcrumbing, but I must admit that I tend to agree with pops/Goat when they say the claim seemed awkward.

You know, it's a really good thing that you only consider people's individual contributions rather than any associative behaviour, otherwise you might be forced to consider that if I'm scum, Nab probably isn't. And would be pushed to defend him, and his claim. :eyebrows:

[Elmo]

If by willingly you mean unprompted, then yes. If by willingly you mean willingly, then no, not really.

I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.

[Elmo]

I'm really tempted to get Jahudo's input on NabNab and then do the opposite of that.

[Elmo]

The first thing that came to mind was, why didn't Nab just claim regular cop?

I have an inkling that Hoopla has the meta of being anti-cop. Don't quote me on that, tho >_>

[Elmo]

The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.

Plenty. This isn't Elmo.

You got me, this is actually Vollkan playing on Elmo's account. Suckers.

Lol, I'm everyone's second choice for a lynch.

You're like my eighth choice for a lynch. :V

With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly. I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.

So NabNab flips Mafia Roleblocker and you'll still be pushing my lynch exactly as hard as you did today, based on my content? That's the logical consequence of judging people based purely on their own contributions, but we're kinda verging on the absurd here.

Why do you talk about me trying to clear myself if you rather dislike NabNab's wagon, and have done for some time? Obviously it hardly clears me if he's town.

until I think that Elmo isn't trying to delibrately hide his thought process in order to sneak through unnoticed, then I'll be on his case.

So you 110% seriously believe my primary objective with respect to how I'm playing is to avoid attention? How dumb do you think I am?

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree.

That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.

Why not?

[Elmo]

vote jahudo

[Elmo]

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Zeez bad feeliks you haff, are zey from ze stomack or zee liveer?

[Elmo]

I still think pops is town. *digs feet in, crosses arms*

I'm starting to doubt my town read of RC

neh I think he's quite likely town at this point.

I also agree with pops point that Red has avoided taking a stance again on the popular wagons of Jahudo/Pops just like he skirted around Nabakov yesterday.

Got the distinct impression he was thoroughly unimpressed with it for almost the entire day. I don't think he said NabNab is 100% town don't lynch him / 100% scum lynch him now, but it's a pretty coherent position imo.

Serial's vote on pops struck me as off, but I can't put my finger on why exactly.

cuz he scummy?

[Elmo]

A bunch of stuff, but in particular

I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.

With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly.

I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either

.

seems pretty unlikely if he knows full well NabNab flips town. That and the whole progression with Nab given he dislikes the claim and thinks I'm scummy looks legit. (maybe this is my OMG U Rock playing up again? I don't think so...)

fwiw theoretically I agree more with you than him on getting associative early, but his stance is not entirely wrong, esp given deadlines; in practise I don't know how you've handled it but in a vacuum it's a risk, just imo. (also I think he misinterpreted you as being more associative than you actually were)

This is a load of hooey. I don't know any veteran players who can't talk or handle pressure.

and yet obv me not talking increases the chances I'm scum when there's zero risk to scum-me talking?

If we were to believe this tripe, we could simply lynch from the bottom of the post count list.

solid plan imo.

[Elmo]

I wouldn't lynch Red, me, Goat, iam, elmo or ecto. I think all of these are probable town, to differing degrees.

Why the hell wouldn't you lynch me?

And besides pops, I can point to at least 10 of your posts that are 100% fluff and do nothing to further the game.

With respect to pops, without rereading I'd concur with this, but I deliberately looked through his posts to see what % of it was fluff. Specifically, it's not correct to say I would find him more suspicious on that basis if he didn't fluff post. Can't tell you what other people make of it, but I would have guessed they would have noticed he was fluff-posting by this point and are trying to account for that.

This is why I think Elmo's rainbow was unnecessary at best and misleading at worse. It stands to reason that Incog and pops are using it in a general sense to throw suspicion toward you without really getting into the details as to why the post counts are skewed.

Jahudo was posting less than usual, and I think that's an interesting thing to note. You can say pretty much anything in mafia's not strictly necessary, but I think it's a good thing to do. My definition it can't be misleading unless the underlying data is incorrect; if people

misuse

the data, then okay, but then point that out to them and get them to stop doing it. In particular I do think that Jahudo's post count is non-negligibly scummy in itself, and I'd be interested in hearing why you thought that wasn't true if you did. If people were only looking at that

and

overplaying it, then I could understand why you had an issue with that.

Why didn't he jump on me yesterday? I just feel like he set me up.

My recollection was that he was putting decent effort into trying to get any other wagon started. I definitely think he would have pushing pops/me/maybe McGriddle as an alternative. It's possibly I'm misremembering. But it doesn't look like a setup from here, and, bluntly, this is exactly the kind of thing I find myself thinking when I OMGUS.

I contend that this is directly because of his NabNab read, and I'm voting him today because I think his spin in regards to NabNab was a ruse to get his agenda through without suspicion.

Maybe I'm missing it but could you say precisely what his agenda is?

[Elmo]

psst, pops, come join the jahudo wagon! we have cookies!

[Elmo]

as a strict rule

therefore no

If not, can you argue that my quality of posts are also lacking?

Yeah - I should probably go meta you (?), but I think the content is at minimum things pretty comfortable for scum to post and not hugely townish. Given you've noted yourself you're posting less that would be considered usual, it may be down to some outside issue like lack of time or whatever, in which case it would be good to say that. In general you seem much less aggro than when I've seen you as town, although it was probably a while ago.

And if quantity does matter alot, I guess you don't see many scum spammers?

I don't think I've ever seen a scum spammer, actually.

cookie forthcoming~

[Elmo]

Personally, I think it's important on it's own - I think that, for the same amount of 'content' (however you define it) it helps a townie to post more frequently, and they're more likely to do so. Should be fairly obvious why.

also, ^ relevant

[Elmo]

Great, well the walls weren't exactly wasted because now we're thinking town/town on goat/red, which is a good end result.

*twitch*

unvote vote SerialClergyman

[Elmo]

Feel like saving me some effort?

[Elmo]

I'm finding it really difficult not to read anything into the fact that the only two people with a stated town read on Iam are SC and Jahudo (right?), iam is pretty strongly defending Jahudo, and those are the three I dislike most right now. In particular I am bemused by reading iam as town.

I still have a significant amount of pent-up bloodlust for Jahudo. SC give me the creeps but I still haven't figured out why. O well wagon ho for the moment.

unvote vote iamausername

fwiw I feel the need to state that I don't have a particularly strong read on Incognito and would be interested in views either way. If it's not, like, horrible.

[Elmo]

^ add to that fact they all seem to be the primary drivers behind pops.

I mean, I think pops is town, okay, people disagree. But moreso I'm really struggling to see any legit reasoning for why he's particularly suspicious. I should probably go back and trawl, but it looked really bad when I read some of it.

Iamausername is a solid town read for me, no way I'd vote him. pops is still my top suspect.

If Jahudo is one of them, I am telling you right now you should knock that number down to three. Jahudo has easy target written all over him. {...} So, here is an update: pops is still scum.

This really really really bothers me.

[Elmo]

Not actually sure if this is needed, but prod avoidance post

[Elmo]

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?

I think Elmo mentioned once a long time ago that Jahudo isn't posting a lot, which is par for the course for Jahudo regardless of alignment as far as I know

Bzzt, Jahudo said himself that he was posting less than usual on Day 1. He even gave a few numbers.

I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

I can't tell if pops will be scum or town, but mark my words. If he's scum he's being bussed, because this wagon is shit.

This. This wagon is abjectly terrible and I've been saying I think he's town since Day 1. If someone wants to argue the actual case that would be better than nothing, but I can only make out "lol fluff poasting" and the site is being slow as molasses so I can't effectively look back at the moment. But as stated it's sooooooo bad.

I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"

Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?

If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.

Since when is putting me as one of his strongest town reads ignoring me? I mean what is difficult to understand here? He perceives me and Jahudo as acting differently and suspects one and not the other. The fact that you think we're comparable in one respect doesn't actually mean you're right, or that he's supposed to see things like that, or that he's not supposed to profile based on other characteristics - I can't even remember him saying "I'm voting Jahudo primarily for being under-the-radar", I remember him saying "Jahudo's scum.

POPS, NO-ONE WANTS TO LYNCH ECTO, IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE DYING THEN GET ON A COUNTERWAGON THAT ACTUALLY HAS LEGS, LIKE JAHUDO / IAM. tyvm.

In other news, whatever,

unvote vote Jahudo

are you happy now?

[Elmo]

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?

I think Elmo mentioned once a long time ago that Jahudo isn't posting a lot, which is par for the course for Jahudo regardless of alignment as far as I know

Bzzt, Jahudo said himself that he was posting less than usual on Day 1. He even gave a few numbers.

I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

I can't tell if pops will be scum or town, but mark my words. If he's scum he's being bussed, because this wagon is shit.

This. This wagon is abjectly terrible and I've been saying I think he's town since Day 1. If someone wants to argue the actual case that would be better than nothing, but I can only make out "lol fluff poasting" and the site is being slow as molasses so I can't effectively look back at the moment. But as stated it's sooooooo bad.

I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"

Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?

If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.

Since when is putting me as one of his strongest town reads ignoring me? I mean what is difficult to understand here? He perceives me and Jahudo as acting differently and suspects one and not the other. The fact that you think we're comparable in one respect doesn't actually mean you're right, or that he's supposed to see things like that, or that he's not supposed to profile based on other characteristics - I can't even remember him saying "I'm voting Jahudo primarily for being under-the-radar", I remember him saying "Jahudo's scum.

POPS, NO-ONE WANTS TO LYNCH ECTO, IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE DYING THEN GET ON A COUNTERWAGON THAT ACTUALLY HAS LEGS, LIKE JAHUDO / IAM. tyvm.

In other news, whatever,

unvote vote Jahudo

are you happy now?

[Elmo]

fuck me the site is absolutely horrible at the moment

%&^$%&$SH%S^US£""!A^@:(&%$£^

[Elmo]

I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"

Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?

Well why didn't you say so? All of this changes everything; how convincing! What a great debate we're having.

So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?

• "IIoA is a great tell... but not for Elmo it isn't "
  
• ...but, as iamausername would bring up, pops has no problem holding McGriddle to task for IIoA.
  • (Now it seems like McGriddle is on pops' wagon, yet Elmo isn't? What a coincidence. Cue Elmo to say, "I've got a gut town read on pops and that's that!" Yeah, I'll bet he does.)

So how is this not linking people before they've flipped which you objected to hugely before? I mean, what exactly makes this less speculative?

Except the way McGriddle has been behaving it upsets me more, compared to Elmo.

IioA is an excellent tell, but everything matters in context. In context of all of Elmo's play, taken together, I don't think it was a scumtell for her. If the previous posts were "Quit lurking Elmo" or "<a bunch of people with equal involvement in a game where contribution levels are a total nonissue>" or "<Elmo avoiding direct questions>" (she always seems to comply afaik) then the same exact post would be an issue but that wasn't the case.

So here's what pops actually said. But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?

So so so.

*bored*

[Elmo]

URGE TO KILL RISING

[Elmo]

Bits have been added to some quotes for hopefully obv reasons.

Overreaction/Buddying with Goat

amounts to

Goatrevolt's [weak sauce] reasons are independent of Nabakanov's alignment tbh. He's still hung up on the early game joke and thinks I was lying about not noticing an unvote, and doesn't like when I post fluff.

Wrong doesn't equal scum. GR doesn't scumhunt the way you would but he's trying as hard/harder than you are. Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?

This is a first for me. pops coming to bat for the player that just voted him, clarifying why it is Goat finds him scummy.

It turns out that this makes it easier to defend himself, which you snipped off when you quoted him. It's easy to defend yourself against Goat's stated reasons, it's hard to defend links someone's drawn partially based on what

they

did. Alongside that, he thinks Goat's town and expressly said so, and I don't see any reason presented to think it's buddying rather than genuinely thinking he's got it wrong. If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

Jahudo, I think, was spot-on to call pops a NabNab fence sitter.

It's not even that NabNab is a bad lynch (especially after the claim), it's that there has been no deviation from NabNab, and the NabNab wagon is completely comfortable with this. What's more, they're actively discouraging it, as is the case with our friends Goat and Elmo (in different ways). Goat is discouraging it by lining up future scum/town reads based on NabNab's alignment, and Elmo is doing so by simply not participating in the game.

Goat says that he can just simply drop all his reads if something doesn't go as planned, but that's not really the point. The point is D1's are very much a sketchy proposition for the town, and it's usually no more than dumb luck if they score a direct hit on a scum member. NabNab is no different, you know, there is not this huge case against NabNab. And yet, it's like, we've got these players who are so sure, so confident, that it's already a fixture in their minds. This mentality could really hurt us later in the game, I think.

Now, if I was in a bad mood, I'd just call you a hypocrite for the sake of it, but I won't because I had my cheerios today and I've been in roughly your position before and think it's a perfectly reasonable stance. But the problem is that you haven't evidenced a strong opinion either way, as far as I can see, and therefore I think both your play and pop's play is comparable in that respect. There needs to be more than "didn't clearly support and didn't clearly oppose" to be scummy to my eyes; if there is more than that, you'll need to elaborate because that's the most common meaning of fence-sitting. (Your play aside, I don't think it's scummy either, since being essentially neutral on that wagon seems perfectly reasonable to me for basically the reasons you stated.)

Artifical case against Jahudo is formed on the basis that Jahudo is positioning himself to hammer NabNab (where he got this from, I still have no clue... this is just thrown in for padding),

I don't really like the Nabakov wagon, except for one point that I do like. Hopefully this makes me look good if the wagon pull through on its own, but gives me an excuse to vote if it needs help.

obv not? I mean that doesn't even look close.

and that Jahudo is ignoring the "votes" on him... when, surprise surprise, pops was only the second vote on Jahudo's wagon.

I'm gonna totally ignore people voting or attacking me, I'll just ride it out and hope others get more attention.

I'd voiced some disapproval at that point, I'm not sure what other people had said. Of all the points this is probably the least thin, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect Jahudo to address what people said and hence a lack of that to be a continuation of an attempt to evade scrutiny. I think one likely wouldn't convince anyone else by that, but it seems okay as a "I suspect X because Y" reason.

Jahudo probably hadn't have even logged in to see Incog had voted him, and already pops is calling him out for ignoring it.

Except Jahudo posted right above pops, in 276 to pops' 277? And Incog voted in 266? wtf?

I don't know if we can blame him for being opportunistic and following orders, but I think pops is stretching himself too thin on Jahudo.

Self-preservation is entirely rational regardless of his alignment. This is just obviously not scummy in itself, I mean if you want I can show you a game where a townie didn't vote the other viable wagon who turned out to be the SK and I wanted to rip their head off.

I mean I dunno why I bother writing this shit, it won't change anyone's mind, but there, WORD SALAD SERVED WITH A SIDE OF PASTA FOR YOU GOOD SIR.

[Elmo]

Thanks for providing another example of what I'm talking about with Pop's, except, of course, your interpretation differs from mine. You say "I don't see it" and I say "Right there it is". Also, before you get this part wrong too, buddying is not the same as establishing ties.

I don't think I've responded to what you said? I mean, I quoted Red, I'm responding to Red. It's the kind of thing where I have to go back and look in context, and the site was horrible for the past few days.

[Elmo]

So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?

Because you have. You said it yourself, "I don't want to lynch him... because I think he's town!

So answer my question, how is saying I think he's town ignoring his play like you implied - what do you mean by "without question"? I would think that looking at his play and stating a clear conclusion was kind of the opposite of ignoring it. I've been asking you what you mean by that a couple of times in a row now.

But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?

Not particularly. I don't buy that you've been playing differently then him.

That's kind of the point. It matters whether pops might genuinely think that, not whether you think that or even if it's actually true. You're effectively saying, I think this isn't true, therefore when pops says this is true pops must be lying. That's bad, because you haven't attempted to figure out how pops might think that.

If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

I don't buy this at all. In light of pops' claim, his post makes a little more sense, but even without it I don't get your rationale.

If scum's being attacked by a townie, it makes more sense for the scum to attack them back rather than say they think they're town. That kind of interaction is highly unlikely to get Goat to stop attacking him, but it makes it harder for pops to counter-attack. In fact, it's pretty uncommon for scum to buddy up with people who're attacking them in my experience, it's arguably the worst time to try that because they're already on their guard and buddying works best when it's innocuous.

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Zeez bad feeliks you haff, are zey from ze stomack or zee liveer?

Haha, I <3 Elmo.

Now, something like this? This I could potentially see as buddying, for example.

I made it clear that I didn't like the NabNab lynch up until the claim, at which point I no longer had grounds to protest it. It was different in pops' case. He specifically said, "Well I have a bad gut read but... I dunno... I guess the lynch is a-okay. "

Well, here's what I found:

I don't know what I think of Naba btw, besides his last few posts which aren't great. I'll reread him if you guys don't lynch him on your own, but it looks like y'all are going to.

I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.

That was six days ago. He did bug my gut back then, doesn't do so now. *shrug*

and I really can't find anything that matches your characterisation of his stance. Possibly it's there, but I looked at the posts you linked in your case summary. His general stance looks similar to yours, in that you both have essentially null reads on NabNab, but you take issue with the mechanics of the wagon. I don't think it's quite fair to say you objected to NabNab's lynch, more like you objected to the way in which the wagon progressed.

Jahudo should sound the alarms over L-6? Get real, Elmo.

I don't know why you're saying that, I don't particularly agree with the point, and I think I just said that. He didn't say Jahudo should sound the alarms or panic, just offer up some kind of response, which would (pretty clearly) be the pro-town thing to do. I think it's a reasonable, if somewhat thin, point of view; that is, I can perfectly well see pops-town saying that, and hence I don't think it's scummy. Personally, I would have mildly expected Jahudo to do so but don't think the lack of such is scummy.

No, not in itself. It's scummy when you don't agree with the lynch.

No, it's not. You know you have zero chance of being scum, and someone else, even picked completely at random has a greater than zero chance. Any chance at hitting scum is better than none. Someone should absolutely prefer any lynch in the game (other than a confirmed innocent or such) to their own.

And you can bitch and moan about having to actually defend your positions all you want, it doesn't make me feel sympathy, guilt, or whatever other emotion you are trying to appeal to.

I haven't complained about that. I.. really don't care what you feel.

[Elmo]

unvote

This role has been pretty uncomfortable so far, trying to lay low (which i guess is "backgroudsy") so we could survive when there's only a few people left in the game and masons are more valuable.

Yeah, I don't dislike this at all, it's just that I almost always worry about backgroundsy people being a power role of some sort and mostly they're not. Ah well.

Gonna think about the claims.. I approve of massclaim at this point.

[Elmo]

The thing I want to hear most, right now, is why Patrick was a good N1 vig target.

[Elmo]

I'm wondering why I was chosen to be NKed, assuming Ecto/Pops are to be believed. I thought I was a pretty unlikely choice, all things considered.

I thought you'd be a great choice, in fact I said so vocally to my scumbuddies last night.

pops' claim is easier to swallow, as he has a useful power. Elmo would probably be my go to lynch, but I've been wanting a McGriddle lynch since early in D1.

Can I perhaps get a teensy bit of town credit for defending pops? No?

[Elmo]

The thing I want to hear most, right now, is why Patrick was a good N1 vig target.

This, still.

[Elmo]

Even without a mafia roleblocker, I'm not sure how to usefully use pops to investigate as currently stated.

[Elmo]

Look forward, not behind at the fact the case against him was terrible and certain people have been saying that for some time?

I mean is my/his viewpoint seriously supposed to be "well, a bunch of people pushed a terrible case against someone who's now likely town, but he didn't get lynched so LET'S FORGET ABOUT IT AND ALL BE FRIENDS NOW"?

[Elmo]

o_o

We're somewhat low on time. Goat, am I claiming now, or a bit later today?

[Elmo]

<-- Vanilla Townie. Apparently an endangered species in this game.

I drafted a post around noon and wandered off without posting it, but it's mostly superfluous now. With even more claimed power, we kinda have to have 3 scum, likely with power themselves. Given my list looks something like:

Jahudo / iamausername
McGriddle (pending tonight)
Goatrevolt / popsofctown / Ectomancer
Incognito
SerialClergyman / RedCoyote

I'm, uh, somewhat unhappy right now.

[Elmo]

Okay, so to keep this straight in my head...

popsofctown -

weak doctor

Jahudo -

mason

iamausername -

mason

Ectomancer -

one-shot vig

~~~ mass claim happens ~~~
RedCoyote -

vanilla townie

Clergyman -

vanilla townie

McGriddle -

even night vig

Elmo -

vanilla townie

Incognito -

?

Goatrevolt -

?

@_@

[Elmo]

I'm fine with being McGriddle's target and lynching Red, I don't think he's telling the truth.

You think McGriddle's lying? Why?

Make it happen, gentlemen. In your heart you know I'm town.

[Elmo]

I don't believe that we have two vig roles, and even then an even night vig is a weird role to pick.

Why don't you believe we could have two vig roles? This needs more actual thought rather than handwaving. It seems very very plausible to me given the mod. If anything, my impression is that Hoopla likes being somewhat unconventional. Much to my previous chagrin, duplicate roles are not uncommon nowadays. This isn't to say that I think obv obv he's telling the truth, but taking the stance of disbelieving McG because of that strikes me as very thin.

It's also totally set up to allow him to live through the night. And we have too much power, so someone is lying.

Okay, so why's it him as opposed to Ecto? As opposed to pops, or anyone?

In my mind, the only two legitimate possibilities are Ecto 1-shot and Griddle mafia, or Ecto SK and Griddle town.

Ecto mafia is certainly

possible

. Not that I particularly want to push that at the moment.

tbqh if SC is mafia he's acting exactly like someone who knows they have a roleblocker and hence he won't get shot. This bothers me. If we're going with killing Red+SC, what's the effective difference between what's on the cards and lynch SC, McG shoots Red? I haven't read back, but Red seems rather more inclined to defend SC than vice versa.

[Elmo]

Hmm, no, it's not quite the same. I dunno. Can't believe mafia don't have a RB, and hitting the RB today would be extra good, but I'm not sure I'm not pushing my luck at the moment. I also think whichever way you slice it, we've got a mafioso unaccounted for. Not sure what to read into that.

[Elmo]

Totally unofficial vote count yo.

With ten alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch.

McGriddle

-

3

(iamausername, popsofctown, SerialClergyman)

RedCoyote

-

3

(Goatrevolt, Jahudo, McGriddle)

Elmo

-

1

(RedCoyote)

Not Voting

-

3

(Ectomancer, Incognito, Elmo)

[Elmo]

I don't consider Ecto untouchable by any means fwiw. The wagon is on Red instead of SC because Red had a pissing contest with Goat and we're mostly following Goat. Basically. If I'm honest about it, I would actually be marginally happier lynching SC, but right after that I would be immediately back to Red, so I dunno there's much value in arguing considering I think 3 mafia.

Does anyone have experience with toasting waffles? I put a waffle in the toaster and it kind of fell apart and then I had to turn the toaster upside down to get the pieces out

[Elmo]

Redcoyote's refusal to be practical at all and do anything but wall post pillowfight with Goatrevolt is not consistent with a townie trying to make sure the best lynch happens today, it's scum trying to paint a picture.

is interesting. SC & Incog, what do you think?

[Elmo]

1st. SerialClergyman
2nd. RedCoyote
3rd. Ectomancer

I guess? Red/SC were closer, but SC been creeping me out all game, so less so I figure.

If we assume the masons are town, then the scum team basically has to be RedCoyote/Ectomancer/SerialClergyman. The problem with that analysis is that it means the scum were seriously effed this game, with such a huge number of confirmable town roles

Yeah, I got here a while back. This is why I was unhappy.

At this point I cannot shake the feeling Red flips town. This makes no sense, but unfortunately not many sets of alignments make sense either. Just on a fundamental level, I'm more inclined to suspect the guy being pleasant and agreeing with a bunch of people while being on popular wagons (SC) than the guy irritating the shit out of the obv townie.

The thing about the masons is interesting. The problem is pretty much what I said (I think?) that mason pairs acting like that look exactly like scumbuddies; protecting each other for no apparent reason, staying out of the limelight, etc. Even being on the pops wagon makes sense in order to protect Jahudo.

I guess just on the face of it, it would be a very strong gambit but for that exact reason it's difficult to have any level of confidence that they're scum. I'm pretty sure it goes back to pre-game, given the comment Jahudo made on D1 about posting less than usual as both scum and town. I certainly think it's possible, but I don't yet see any evidence that it's likely; there's no evidence against it, either.

I'll unvote and flip to a vote: SerialClergyman, because Incog is seemingly the only one willing to defer slightly from the idea that I'm proven scum here.

I am as well, that's why I haven't voted you. Increasingly I think SC's more likely scum than you. I started the day thinking you were town, remember?

Can I perhaps get a teensy bit of town credit for defending pops? No?

Hah. Okay, I'll do that just as soon as you give me credit for defending the Masonry.

Hence why this (f.e.) doesn't make huge amounts of sense, I can't 100% remember but I think I still thought you were town as this point. So bleah.

I mean, look, you've been dead set against me for a long time, it would be insanely easy for me to jump on your wagon and get you killed, but I'm not doing that. Please consider: if I'm scum, why? 24h before deadline is a little late in the day to realise I'm town, but it'd be nice.

I got rough with Goat and Elmo, but I don't think they would've wanted it any other way.

You know I love it when you're rough with me, baby.

[Elmo]

Oh good, it's not just me. :V

[Elmo]

Mod: Please prod iamausername & McGriddle

[Elmo]

I don't need to be prodded I was on yesterday.

Yea, I just figured it couldn't hurt 'cuz deadline is fairly close.

With respect to your shot, I think if you announce a single shot, then you'll be RBed if you pick scum and not otherwise. It's not certain scum have a RB, but it's pretty likely. The only solution(s) are for you to not announce your target, or to announce a set of targets which you choose between randomly.

I think whichever way you slice it, the masons absolutely need to talk a lot tonight, in great detail, and start trying to be really pro-town tomorrow. I'm pretty iffy about lynching one of them today, though.

[Elmo]

What do you want to hear? I hope he's lying, if he's not then I guess it's Red right now.

I reiterate, masons you

will

be put under the microscope tomorrow so I suggest you get on quicktopic / AIM / whatever and put together some shit hot analysis during night.

Beyond that, I dunno what more there is to be said - this is all really fucking confusing.

[Elmo]

Hmm. Well, now, isn't this uncomfortable.

Monsieur masóns?

[Elmo]

This is interesting. If Goat is scum

pops the weak doc targeted Goat. Hence Goat is town. We know this already.

So I guess it's Incog/Red/Elmo. Unless Ecto and McGriddle are pulling off an awesome gambit here.

How does this even begin to work?

I'm a bit skeptical of the lack of a vig kill last night by McGriddle, but the manner in which he claimed still strikes me as strongly pro-town. It's just a bit convenient to get roleblocked. And the way his role lines up with Ecto's suggests that they are both telling the truth or both lying.

Disagree, lots. It's entirely possible for Ecto to be scum and McG town here. I don't think it's hugely likely, but I don't want that possibility eliminated entirely. I still think Patrick is an entirely dubious target from his point of view.

I think we should have a mason and someone likely to be scum if the masons are town (preferably Red) cross-vote in a few days time.

Red is conspicuous by his absence.

[Elmo]

Blargh, missed a post, ignore some stuff, iam.

I reiterate what I said yesterday, I think you would have played very similarly as town or scum and I don't hold that against you in itself. The best thing you can do today in my eyes is act really different from scum.

[Elmo]

I dunno about you lot, I'm writing Goat off as town. From my POV, that leaves:

RedCoyote
Incognito

Jahudo
iamausername

Ectomancer
McGriddle

So if we have three scum, at least one mason or vig must be scum.

This makes me unhappy.

[Elmo]

...please unvote? Is there any benefit at all to voting in probable LyLo less than 24h after the start of day?

[Elmo]

Given the speculation that masons could have been role cop bait,

I don't follow this.

[Elmo]

Oh, I see where you're coming from. Two mafia masons paired together? That's pretty cool, especially with the rolecop and if some flavour lets them know mason is a safe claim.

I guess I've mostly been assuming they're either masons or both standard mafia roles who made it up. I'm not really sure how the timing of NabNab's death affects things... it's a good spur-of-the-moment gambit but I don't entirely see why they tie themselves so close as scum. On the other hand, I've seen weirder I guess. Hm.

Also I think this is 2/2 games where NabNab got lynched as soon as I entered the game, both as town, lol - sorry

[Elmo]

They don't show up as town to a rolecop, that's kind of the point. They'd show up as "mason", because they are; they're just mafia-aligned masons. Mafia/scum mason is a common and simple enough role that it could easily qualify as normal imo.

Masons, what would really help from my pov is if you could make a case on someone? Saying "welp, from my pov it must be Elmo/Incog/Red" and then doing nothing doesn't help a whole lot, because I'm sure you can see where that leads from my pov. Any kind of actual analysis would be nice at this point.

[Elmo]

Pretty sure all Mini Normals are still being vetted by Thesp.
I think there's a "you may have one or two unusual roles" disclaimer for Normal games, dunno what that means in this context.

Remarkably quiet for the stage of the game.

[Elmo]

Monsieur Red?

[Elmo]

I didn't like Elmo or Goat's characterizations of NabNab as some sort of confirmed scum

He goes on this big thing about how he predicted pops to be town and how that makes him obvtown

Feel free to show where I said anything resembling that.

I'm not going to go back and look for every little spat I had with Elmo, but suffice to say that a majority of his interaction with the town has been littered with unnecessary content. He throws up a post counter and doesn't really do anything with it

Except you've been constantly bitching about me suspecting Jahudo partially based on that. What other "unnecessary" content do you refer to? Unnecessary is a really bad criticism, anything apart from votes can be framed as 'unnecessary' - you haven't at any point argued that it wasn't

helpful

, because it was.

He's never really addressed by the Masons for most of the game, despite him being a serious thorn in their side throughout the game {..} This leads me to believe that Elmo was only pushing on iamausername and Jahudo to get the claim out and hopefully coast to victory.

Are you serious saying that I've consistently attacked the masons all game but their preferring to go under the radar rather than face me means that I'm

more

likely to be scum with them? Or am I just completely misreading you here? Why do I want them to claim? Why do I want to pressure them instead of e.g. pushing pops through to a lynch or going after someone else, or agreeing with you about Goat, or whatever?

I think I had a great case for finding NabNab townie. It was that Elmo, Goat, and McGriddle were all pushing the wagon without sincerity, in complete confirmation bias mode.

How do the two mix? It's kinda gotta be one or the other. Why do you think my stance on NabNab wasn't sincere?

Goat threw me off because he led me to believe there was something in NabNab that I wasn't seeing, but it turns out he was really just on the wagon because Elmo was.

So now I've manipulated Goat into doing what I want.. pretty much just by voting someone? Awesome. Goat, how do you feel about that?

[Elmo]

I would like to hear more from Elmo, Ecto and friends before proceeding.

What do you want to hear? I'm pretty much where I've been for a while, I'd preferentially lynch Red at this point, though it makes/made sense to wait for the cross-voting since it helps narrows it down a bit. But yeah, I wanted it to happen about halfway through the day and we should now probably think about getting it done for timebank reasons, I don't think I'm really voting anyone else apart from maybe a mason at this point.

vote RedCoyote

[Elmo]

Okay, well, here's some information (not analysis zomg ) from a neutral point of view.

* Goat is town, essentially, because of pops.
* Iam / Jah are both town or both scum.
* If Ecto is town, McGriddle is town.

You could say that Ecto & McGriddle have the same alignment and I wouldn't complain, but I'm paranoid.

If the masons are scum, the mafia can be:
RedCoyote / Jahudo / iamausername
Incognito / Jahudo / iamausername
Elmo / Jahudo / iamausername
Ectomancer / Jahudo / iamausername

If masons are town:
RedCoyote / Incognito / Elmo
RedCoyote / Incognito / Ectomancer
RedCoyote / Elmo / Ectomancer
RedCoyote / Ectomancer / McGriddle
Incognito / Elmo / Ectomancer
Incognito / Ectomancer / McGriddle
Elmo / Ectomancer / McGriddle

Maybe that helps a bit. Red's a pretty good vote from my point of view.

[Elmo]

gg

Odd game.

[Elmo]

It's kinda funny that I think I never thought Incog was town, and I pretty consistently didn't like Ecto's claimed kill target, but I pretty much switched my brain off and sheeped on Goat anyway. I think Goat has a habit of wanting to lead, and at present I'm never invested enough in the game to want to lead, so I just follow someone who's town. I was even thinking "ugh, this is wrong but wtf do I do - oh, whatever" when I voted. Muh, I should probably have replaced out back there.

I'm very amused by some things in the Mafia QT.

[Elmo]

Meh. Also, now I think about it, it's not OMGUS per se but I'm pretty sure Red's push against me meant I didn't put much effort into not thinking he was scum. I started out Day 2 fairly sure he was town, think I said as much. I guess that's new.

I'm pretty surprised Patrick thought SC was obvtown tho. Didn't remember him saying that; don't see it at all.

I don't know why the fuck I'm typing this since the post-game never goes anywhere, but whatever.

[Elmo]

I don't think I ever fully understood why the vig claims didn't get as much scrutiny as they did here.

Uh, this should be pretty obvious?

[Elmo]

I'm pretty proud of my town reads (take note, haters)

I don't think anyone actually suspected you for that, I only thought you pegging iam as town was weird.. I was looking for people linked to iam / Jah at that point (:roll:

I liked his claim, he switched to protect McGriddle, he looked town - just 10 points all around.

I dunno why it is, but pretty much every time someone waxes lyrical about how well someone did as scum, I'm somewhere between "meh" and confused, and I'm afraid I'll just look bitter if I say that. This is pretty much one of those times - I just fail to see how anyone has a basis for thinking he's town. I don't mean that he played

bad

, but I just don't see it.

Elmo, I don't think you sheeped onto goat much at all, as far as I'm aware you just had your reads and away you went.

I thought Goat would get pissed if I said "I'm really just sheeping Goat now" or similar. Even tho he likes to take the reins, so to speak. But yeah, I mean there's no way I've have e.g. gone from thinking Red was town early Day 2 to lynching him Day 3 if I wasn't pretty much going along with Goat. Even on Day 3, he's obviously, obviously town when he snap votes me because it makes

no sense

if he's scum, he's never getting me lynched in a 1-v-1 unless he's delusional, the only reason it makes sense is if he's completely tunnelled (which was also really bad, by the way) - and yet I voted with Goat. I guess it's telling that I don't really care, I'm just curious to find out who the scum were.

One thing I don't understand is how Incog was (lollerskates) considering me for N1/N2 kills and yet never pushed my lynch. I find that pretty weird.

I was kind of surprised to learn it was supposed to be an invitational actually, I dunno why the hell you would invite me to one =)

[Elmo]

Or rather, I don't understand why they didn't get

more

scrutiny than they did here.

cuz everyone was looking at the masons / Red because Goat was pushing them hard? What's not to get?

[Elmo]

Mmm... Maybe it's just me but I'm really not liking this goat narrative... The guy tried hard and actively encouraged other people to agree with his reads - this is a good thing. There's no power trip or having to lead or whatever there

What's not to like? What's the difference between the two?

if you didn't think Red was town, don't vote him. ><

Well, duh. Does it read at all like I'm blaming Goat?

Not lynching Ecto (or at least some power role) D2 was completely retarded and really should only have happened because we were scrambling. Again, meh.

[Elmo]

I figured you would realize my push on you was b.s. since I thought you were pretty aware that I normally have an easy time reading you.

Not going to debate that one, but: so what? It just seems pretty weird to randomly be paranoid about me every Night. I think you're one of a small group of people who hugely overrate my play for no apparent reason, which is getting pretty irritating, honestly.

That doesn't make sense. You can't seriously place the blame on one person when there was like 6 other people who were aligned on the side of the town at the time McG claimed who also didn't spot that.

Well, I think that's a good part of why it happened, at least on Day 3. Day 2 was mostly rushed for time as far as I can remember. I don't think anyone seriously considered Ecto or McGriddle as scum - most people were looking elsewhere. People tend to keep looking where they're looking. It's pretty simple, to my mind.

Well, duh. Does it read at all like I'm blaming Goat?

Yes, basically.

Well, I'm not. I said as much in my first post; I have a bad habit of not being terribly involved in games, and one way that bites is sometimes I just pick someone townish and follow them. That's obviously my fault. I don't know where you get anything else from.

[Elmo]

Taking so long on Day 1 was stupid. One reason I was relatively stuck on NabNab was that I just wanted someone dead. Towns will pretty much

always

do this, though, for some reason. Hindsight bias, probably, but I'd expect it to play out almost exactly like it did.

I don't think it's necessarily bad, though, you can make an argument that using all the time available as early as possible is optimal. I don't really agree, but whatever.

[Elmo]

+1 Hoopla did a good job modding. Cheers!

SC: I thought/think a one-shot vig and an even night vig makes a fair amount of sense. I wouldn'ta thought it was particularly scummy in his shoes. I'm still pretty damn surprised McGriddle thought up that claim on his lonesome. More attention ought to have been paid to the idea he was couched into it, possibly with daytalking, but eh.

I dunno, with Ecto's vig claim I think I just thought "it's too bizarre to fake" and then thinking about it was never a high enough priority - I will say I felt really rushed after massclaim, but that may just have been other stuff. I would've been pretty amused if it turned out there weren't any doc-types in the game, though.

Red: lol, everyone?

[Elmo]

I don't see what's weird about it or why that would be irritating. If two people have a pretty good history of playing with one another (like us) and have seen each other both as town and scum (again, like us), then it should go without saying that meta and gut feelings should play a more substantial role in each player being able to get a good read off the other assuming they're both town.

Well again, I don't particularly agree but I'm not going to debate that since it's tangential to what I'm saying; I didn't say this was irritating or weird. What is weird is what I said was weird, that you wanted me dead at night, yet didn't try to get me lynched - I don't get that. Also, we haven't played together much, I think three times?

And since you were the town one in this game, not me, and I know that your gut is usually pretty good, then it follows that I should be concerned about the fact that you just might read me correctly here. I don't see why that would be unclear to you.

This isn't unclear, I just disagree; as I said, I think you overrate me by quite a lot, and it's beginning to become irritating. My gut is not "usually pretty good". Goat had a much better chance of reading you as scum, for example.

I'm not talking about Day 3, obviously. I pretty clearly said "when McGriddle claimed", which happened on Day 2. Was Day 2 rushed for you guys? Maybe. But even so, I still think the standard procedure for determining the validity of a claim is to check for consistency. IMO, McGriddle's reaction to Ectomancer's claim did not look consistent with the type of reaction I would expect to come from someone who had a similar town role and that's why I've brought it up now.

Oh, missed that. I can't remember what it was, but I can't really see how that'd be true.

[Elmo]

Elmo, I would hazard that you never saw me as town because with you specifically, I did not try to appear town, and did things to make our relationship in game shaky.

Yeah, obv, but that's a bit different from being bemused why anyone else would see you as town, which is kinda what I'm getting at. I just draw a blank.

[Elmo]

Like I mentioned before, it was only Night paranoia (me thinking that you might change your opinion of me at some point during the game).

Yeah, this is still the part I don't understand. I don't get how you can spend e.g. a whole day being pretty comfortable with me and then suddenly get scared when it's night for no reason. It looks like a complete non sequitur to me.

Well, subtle reinforcements of ideas, phrasing designed to appeal to specific individuals, things that aren't meant for you.

Okay, I guess what I meant was that I can't see any decent reason for people thinking you're town. I don't get the quoted, I wouldn't expect (m)any people to think you were town because of those, though it's tricky to talk in the abstract.

You weren't in the emotional state to be receptive to what others perceived as town.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I.. really doubt my emotions had much to do with it, as far as I can see.

If you need an example, I think you can probably see in game where I decided that I needed to cultivate RedCoyote to my "faction" and began trying to influence him favorably on my behalf by reinforcing some of his opinions and such.

I haven't looked back, but I don't remember Red saying you were town at any point, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that. There didn't really end up being factions, as far as I can see.

[Elmo]

I'm not saying you should (or that you shouldn't), but if you think that at night, you should probably also think that during the day. o_o

I mean I think it should be fairly clear it was unlikely, but again it's a tangent.

[Elmo]

I mean I think it should be fairly clear

it

a change of opinion was unlikely, but again it's a tangent.

[Elmo]

It's just the natural paranoia that goes along with being scum; I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

Huh, I don't think I've ever had that. That's kinda weird.

And this all ties back to my own thoughts about your gut - even though you're now claiming to disagree that your gut is accurate (you certainly didn't say that in, say, Crackers, iirc),

What did I say in Crackers? I'm pretty sure I've never, ever said I'm good at Mafia, because I've never thought that, so..? I mean, I generally avoid saying I'm bad in-game for obvious reasons.

I happen to believe otherwise based on what I've seen come from you in past games.

Well, uh, you're wrong. I mean it may be better than the alternative, but the end result is still generally pretty piss poor. I mean, look, where did it get me in this game? SC lynched, nice job. Can you point to anything good in this game? In any other game?

To some extent I was bothered by how closely you two were agreeing on everything, but I read Elmo pretty strongly as town and for some reason I connected the two of you in terms of alignments, so my read of Elmo as town somehow trickled down to you as well.

Did I do anything to imply I thought Incog was town? The thing is that I pretty much never think he's townish, so I generally dunno what to do when my read is "meh", and I just left him alone.

I guess the weird thing about this game is I'm not sure what I'd do differently, in context. Do you lot think I should have replaced out when I was thinking about it, Day 2-ish?

[Elmo]

Oh, right, I meant in a relative sense iirc; accurate is relative.

[Elmo]

but judging from your responses, I guess I shouldn't be as concerned about it with you anymore, eh?

Well, no, that's kind of the entire point of what I'm saying. Maybe with Patrick it's valid, but in that case it's not paranoia. That, and I have no idea why you think I'm familiar with your play. o_o

Yeah, it was what Patrick pointed out.

Well, it doesn't have to be good, it just has to be better than the alternatives. I generally find myself with logic that's correct but produces the wrong result nonetheless. Like, either Red has to be playing completely horrible as town or he's just flailing scum... well, yeah, genius.

I thought you picked up a town read of Patrick rather quickly here based on pretty much one post he made.

I didn't think Patrick was town here that I can remember. I just wrote him off for Day 1 or so. I did the same with you. I don't know if this is bad play or not (shrug)

Same thing happened in BSG when Patrick and I replaced in as Flask of Pestilence and made pretty much one post also.

I already thought Timeater was town, so, no not really.

And something must have went off in your gut about Ectomancer when you first started posting in this game to make you vote for him, no? You ended up switching to NabNab, but I dunno - it was something you never elaborated on.

I dunno, but it's pretty dubious, it's not exactly a strong read. I can't remember playing with Ecto as town, but I think he's one of those people who always looks scummy to me, so it doesn't really count for much imo. iirc, it wasn't 100% random but it was pretty much arbitrary and obviously it was ultra-weak so I discarded it quickly.. not exactly decent evidence imo.

And there was my AoaDA game - you had pretty solid reads on everyone but just got screwed by my terribad set-up.

I played pretty bad in AoaDA as far as I'm concerned, I think I had two town reads and then the pair of scum were terrible. Muerrto blatantly contradicted himself On Day 1, then Farside pointed out how connected he and iceman were... not rocket science. I would almost certainly not have got sthar8 lynched, fwiw. I think the setup was horribly broken, but that doesn't somehow mean I would have played a brilliant game and just got denied by that.

I could probably point to other examples too.

Well, yeah, please do. They're pretty much not there.

Honestly, I think you're just traumatized by how horrific I was in PYP3, and you end up thinking that whenever I don't feel town to you, you can't really come to a good conclusion about my alignment.

Well, no, it's more like I think what I've said before elsewhere - I never liked the idea of "X doesn't seem town so they're scum" because it relies on consistently finding people town when they are, which is a pretty bad assumption because there are plenty of people for whom that isn't true; I shouldn't have even used it there. You didn't play bad in PYP3 at all, lynching you were completely retarded. And I mean, if you're looking for an example of being bad at mafia, that's a pretty good place to start.

We haven't been town together in awhile though so it's a tough call. Maybe when we're actually town together again, we can put this to the test. =]

I don't think I've ever actually had a town read on you - I probably won't when you're town. I'm not sure what Satin Doll would've been like, I thought you were obviously right about Tar, maybe I'm biased. I didn't think you were townish when I read the game before I got my Role PM. Can't remember reading any games of yours I wasn't in. (shrug)

[Elmo]

You could always try responding to the page I posted saying why I don't think your position is justified? I mean you're using the fact that I random voted scum for crying out loud, it's not like this is self-evidently true and I'm ignoring stuff.

I'm pretty sure you have a completely skewed view of me because you felt bad for me in that one game of yours. Literally every other interaction we've had in-game has been stuff you agree is bad, as far as I can tell, like SPQR. This is nutty.

Also, I hate arguing. I really wish I didn't have to do this, in fact, but if I don't it'll just go on and on, so.

Also, replacing out question? I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing like I did, but I'm not sure what other people think.

[Elmo]

That's kind of the thing. Playstyle aside, I just didn't put that much effort in, I was just sorta doing the minimum to not lurk. I realised last night that I can remember the events of my first newbie game from 2007 much better than this one - I think that's pretty telling.

[Elmo]

Okay,

fine

, whatever.

I don't know why the fuck I'm typing this since the post-game never goes anywhere, but whatever.

Guess I was right the first time.