Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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He's prolly townPatrick wrote:Goatrevolt is moving the game forward and part of me wants to say he's slightly townish, but I don't know if it's warranted. I wonder if Elmo could comment on this.
unvote vote ectomancer
(this is me not making a waffle post since you found that scummy last time fwiw)Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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It was Patrick, there was this post in Satin Doll Showdown where I waffled and I keep thinking he said it was scummy but then I remember he told me he didn't (I think?)
I think you did say something about waffling in reference to my stance on Adel in Tofu Day 2 tho.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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:goodposting:Patrick wrote:
As in what?Patrick wrote:My wariness at the moment is because in the game so much of day 1 was spent discussing the mechanics, andhe pretty much completely snowed me.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Ain't it cute?RedCoyote wrote:You've even got the little Cookie Monster trollface going on. I love it. XD
Dunno where this is true.RedCoyote wrote:When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.
p.s. The music for this is really damn catchy.
p.p.s. Out of curiosity, why do you think you started out referring to me as she?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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No, c'mon Jah, think about it - I'd never be this anti-town if I was actually scumJahudo wrote:The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Clarification was not elaboration last time I consulted a dictionary.RedCoyote wrote:Elmo, 162 wrote:
Dunno where this is true.RedCoyote wrote:When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.NabNab, 100 wrote:Care to elaborate on... anything?{words}If you want to get technical, then I suppose that's an elaboration of a previous game.
I confess that "care to elaborate on anything?" referring specifically to my vote on him was not apparent to me. I actually thought it was rhetorical, but I figure #145 woulda answered it if not.RedCoyote wrote:I certainly don't want to speak for NabNab, but I thought it was pretty apparent he was referring to your vote.
Haha, awesome.RedCoyote wrote:I honestly confused you for someone else, initially.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Would that include someone who literally wasn't posting anything (and wouldn't be replaced or killed under the ruleset)? It seems very difficult to actively hurt the town's chances outside of something like MAD Mafia or so. (Posting tooRedCoyote wrote:I'd definitely be willing to lynch someone on the first day who I thought wasactivelyhurting the town's chances at victory, because that's the best time to do so.much?)
(shrug) I'll generally answer specific questions, and I intend everything that I write to be clear and will clarify things if asked to. I just don't (for whatever reason) think there's much value in spontaneously volunteering 'content' at the present.RedCoyote wrote:That's cute. If you want to be obstinate, that's you're call. I'm just calling it how I see it.
Well, Goat said he's passive as scum and he's not being passive so he's town, and Patrick is always town so he's town, and popsofctown said he posts fluff as town and he's posting fluff so he's town. I think. I know he does it as scum too, but it's more likely he's town, so.RedCoyote wrote:Funny, I was just talking to Ecto about that. It seems like you haven't found anything worthwhile this game, and yet you've already got a few townies picked out. That's pretty impressive, so what's your secret?
What do you think of what he's written (how much, what on)? EspeciallyGoatrevolt wrote:Jahudo - Unless he's decided to shed his busing meta, he's probably town if Nabakov is scum. Weak read, though.
that? You put him down as ?? but don't seem to be looking into him much, relatively speaking.Jahudo wrote:popsofctown is aware of his fluff meta, and I think he could use it as scum to try and hide behind this null tell. I don't mind some of his jokes, as long as he doesn't use it to deflect from attention. Post 99 looks like deflection. I think he tried to redirect Goat's feelings about him into the fluff posting tell. unvote; Vote: popsofctown
I'm trying to dig out the case on pops but it may 'ave to wait until tomorrow.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Posting Review
Goatrevolt - 33 (Score = 1.78)
popsofctown - 29 (Score = 1.56)
Ectomancer - 28 (Score = 1.51)
Incognito - 21 (Score = 1.14)
SerialClergyman - 20 (Score = 1.08)
NabakovNabakov - 17 (Score = 0.92)
Elmo - 17 (Score = 0.92)
McGriddle - 16 (Score = 0.86)
Patrick - 13 (Score = 0.70)
RedCoyote - 11 (Score = 0.59)
Jahudo - 10 (Score = 0.54)
iamausername - 7 (Score = 0.38)
Total: 222 posts over 162 hours; 222 / 12 = 18.5 post / person --> score(n) = 18.5 / n.
I quite like clowns.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Not directly.. I'm mostly checking my perception of how much people are posting. It was useful, I was quite off on some people - I figure it helps if everyone can use that.
Let me try something..Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Goatrevolt - 33 (Score = 1.78)
popsofctown - 29 (Score = 1.56)
Ectomancer - 28 (Score = 1.51)
Incognito - 21 (Score = 1.14)
SerialClergyman - 20 (Score = 1.08)
NabakovNabakov - 17 (Score = 0.92)
Elmo - 17 (Score = 0.92)
McGriddle - 16 (Score = 0.86)
Patrick - 13 (Score = 0.70)
RedCoyote - 11 (Score = 0.59)
Jahudo - 10 (Score = 0.54)
iamausername - 7 (Score = 0.38)
Oooh, pretty.Hoopla wrote:Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I thought SC and Ecto were posting less than they are, I thought you were posting more. I knew Jah / iam weren't posting much, but I wasn't sure how much.RedCoyote wrote:And your perception is? Do you have any A to go with your I?
I had the impression that a bunch of people joining the NabNab wagon hadn't been posting much, it turns out that's not true of SC but it is true of iam and McG (albeit he's a bit V/LA). Also, the bottom four people by posts are all voting different people, I had an inkling something like that was the case. I also distinctly remember popsofctown being really lurky, the fact he's posting so frequently (I looked, a lot of it isn't fluff) stands out for me - I'd check his previous games if I were more enterprising. I also find it interesting that no-one in the bottom 4 is being voted, tho not really sure what to make of it.. not happy that Jahudo doesn't seem to be getting any heat at this point.
I personally find 236 helpful 'cuz activity is important and there's no way to look at it other than actually counting posts. The rainbow was partly just an experiment, partly to try and quantify some beliefs I had.
What I'm now interested in is the contrast between RedCoyote's treatment of me and iam/Jahudo. Hrm.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Maybe you could take a poll of who thought I was working really hard based on that post.Ectomancer wrote:But makingbusycharts and graphs that let you stick around because people think you are "working" is what makes someone scum.
It's, uh, not. I did it because I wanted to look at activity, then I posted it because there's no reason not to. There's nothing that can reasonably be interpreted as me going OMG HERE'S SOME AWESOME ANALYSIS, I AM TOTALLY TOWN .Ectomancer wrote:It is just doubly bad when Elmo hasn't made a contribution and puts this up as his offering of effort.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I really don't know why you equate asking me a question with dragging stuff out of me. You asked me a question, I answered it. (It's actually a shitty post, but whatever floats your boat.)RedCoyote wrote:While I like this post, I still don't like the fact that it had to be dragged out of you. Maybe it is just your playstyle.
This is really really bad.RedCoyote wrote:Why wasn't there any analysis? Why is Elmo afraid to put himself out there? I'm glad he got something out of it, but, again, it was only because it was forced out of him.
Did not!Elmo 272 wrote:This is wrong just by virtue of the fact that you said you had an opinion about it, but you declined to give it to us.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I'm pretty interested in these.McGriddle wrote:I have a rainbow list of my own, but its a scummy to town list, and hot to cold: (In order from most scummy [Red] to least scummy [Blue]
Pops
{...}
RedCoyote
iamusername
RedCoyote:
What do you get out of this compared to what you said about me?Jahudo wrote:Besides that I have bad feelings about Goat and Patrick, I'll elaborate if I think they're scummy or just playstyle things I've noticed. Ima, Ecto and Red look pretty town.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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would actually do this, only I'd get prodded and shit.NabakovNabakov wrote:willing to close this thread and not open it again until the 26th
Honestly, with thebankable deadlinesthat I'd like to point out so as to provoke discussion about how best to use them, I'm not entirely sure why we're waiting tbqh.
RedCoyote: I'm serious, it's shitty because there's nothing good about it; it's wasted bytes as far as I'm concerned. I didn't say there wasn't a difference between that and my previous posts.
It's more "Elmo's afraid to post analysis and only did because of being forced to" that's really really bad. Like, wat.
At least in, say, the last week, I find it very difficult to know why Jahudo has the opinions he does. My impression is that he's updated his views, and I don't think you know why, but aren't pressing him for any kind of information. That would be kind of weird in context. More generally, I find it kinda hard to swallow that idea that you're so het up about me and yet don't seem to be very curious at all about Iam / Jah, not even considering them viable alternative lynches when, subjectively, I think their contribution (in terms of making cases / taking positions) and involvement (trying to make interesting stuff happen) is pretty sub-standard, definitely should be enough to evoke ire from you based on what you said earlier. I mean you can break out the rhetoric and go OMG THEY'RE AT LEAST SAYING STUFF, but what they've put out is extremely meh at best and you don't seem to be showing much if any interest.
I should probably replace out. Meh.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I think you can make an argument for that. Personally, I think it's important on it's own - I think that, for the same amount of 'content' (however you define it) it helps a townie to post more frequently, and they're more likely to do so. Should be fairly obvious why.Incognito wrote:For me, I think it's{post count}probably a good indicator of how high a person's sig:noise ratio might be.
Coyote:
So this looks really similar to "not posting reasoning until asked to" (i.e. dragging it out of him, ZOMG) to me. Do you see where I'm going with this?Jahudo wrote:But I don't mind showing my work:
lol.Patrick wrote:Did you read his posts?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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It's not a question of making it clear, I understood what you were saying. It's just that it's bad. I'm not afraid of anything. (shrug)RedCoyote wrote:You are. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. It's not bad because it's true:
There's quite a distance between asking someone to do something and forcing them to. I mean, in the context of mafia, the most obvious example would be a bunch of people saying "do this or we'll lynch you". Incognito saying "hey, do you draw anything from that?" is rather different.RedCoyote wrote:If that's not being forced to do something, then I don't know what is.
You know, it's a really good thing that you only consider people's individual contributions rather than any associative behaviour, otherwise you might be forced to consider that if I'm scum, Nab probably isn't. And would be pushed to defend him, and his claim. :eyebrows:RedCoyote wrote:As far as the claim goes, I'd like to see if there's any breadcrumbing, but I must admit that I tend to agree with pops/Goat when they say the claim seemed awkward.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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If by willingly you mean unprompted, then yes. If by willingly you mean willingly, then no, not really.
I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I have an inkling that Hoopla has the meta of being anti-cop. Don't quote me on that, tho >_>Jahudo wrote:The first thing that came to mind was, why didn't Nab just claim regular cop?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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You got me, this is actually Vollkan playing on Elmo's account. Suckers.Ectomancer wrote:
Plenty. This isn't Elmo.Goatrevolt wrote:The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.
You're like my eighth choice for a lynch. :Vpopsofctown wrote:Lol, I'm everyone's second choice for a lynch.
So NabNab flips Mafia Roleblocker and you'll still be pushing my lynch exactly as hard as you did today, based on my content? That's the logical consequence of judging people based purely on their own contributions, but we're kinda verging on the absurd here.RedCoyote wrote:With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly. I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.
Why do you talk about me trying to clear myself if you rather dislike NabNab's wagon, and have done for some time? Obviously it hardly clears me if he's town.
So you 110% seriously believe my primary objective with respect to how I'm playing is to avoid attention? How dumb do you think I am?RedCoyote wrote:until I think that Elmo isn't trying to delibrately hide his thought process in order to sneak through unnoticed, then I'll be on his case.
Why not?RedCoyote wrote:
That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.Incog 353 wrote:I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Zeez bad feeliks you haff, are zey from ze stomack or zee liveer?iamausername wrote:Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I still think pops is town. *digs feet in, crosses arms*
neh I think he's quite likely town at this point.Goatrevolt wrote:I'm starting to doubt my town read of RC
Got the distinct impression he was thoroughly unimpressed with it for almost the entire day. I don't think he said NabNab is 100% town don't lynch him / 100% scum lynch him now, but it's a pretty coherent position imo.Goatrevolt wrote:I also agree with pops point that Red has avoided taking a stance again on the popular wagons of Jahudo/Pops just like he skirted around Nabakov yesterday.
cuz he scummy?Goatrevolt wrote:Serial's vote on pops struck me as off, but I can't put my finger on why exactly.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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A bunch of stuff, but in particular
seems pretty unlikely if he knows full well NabNab flips town. That and the whole progression with Nab given he dislikes the claim and thinks I'm scummy looks legit. (maybe this is my OMG U Rock playing up again? I don't think so...)RedCoyote wrote:
With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly.Elmo 334 wrote:I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.
fwiw theoretically I agree more with you than him on getting associative early, but his stance is not entirely wrong, esp given deadlines; in practise I don't know how you've handled it but in a vacuum it's a risk, just imo. (also I think he misinterpreted you as being more associative than you actually were)
and yet obv me not talking increases the chances I'm scum when there's zero risk to scum-me talking?Ectomancer wrote:This is a load of hooey. I don't know any veteran players who can't talk or handle pressure.
solid plan imo.Ectomancer wrote:If we were to believe this tripe, we could simply lynch from the bottom of the post count list.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Why the hell wouldn't you lynch me?SerialClergyman wrote:I wouldn't lynch Red, me, Goat, iam, elmo or ecto. I think all of these are probable town, to differing degrees.
With respect to pops, without rereading I'd concur with this, but I deliberately looked through his posts to see what % of it was fluff. Specifically, it's not correct to say I would find him more suspicious on that basis if he didn't fluff post. Can't tell you what other people make of it, but I would have guessed they would have noticed he was fluff-posting by this point and are trying to account for that.Jahudo 419 wrote:And besides pops, I can point to at least 10 of your posts that are 100% fluff and do nothing to further the game.
Jahudo was posting less than usual, and I think that's an interesting thing to note. You can say pretty much anything in mafia's not strictly necessary, but I think it's a good thing to do. My definition it can't be misleading unless the underlying data is incorrect; if peopleRedCoyote wrote:This is why I think Elmo's rainbow was unnecessary at best and misleading at worse. It stands to reason that Incog and pops are using it in a general sense to throw suspicion toward you without really getting into the details as to why the post counts are skewed.misusethe data, then okay, but then point that out to them and get them to stop doing it. In particular I do think that Jahudo's post count is non-negligibly scummy in itself, and I'd be interested in hearing why you thought that wasn't true if you did. If people were only looking at thatandoverplaying it, then I could understand why you had an issue with that.
My recollection was that he was putting decent effort into trying to get any other wagon started. I definitely think he would have pushing pops/me/maybe McGriddle as an alternative. It's possibly I'm misremembering. But it doesn't look like a setup from here, and, bluntly, this is exactly the kind of thing I find myself thinking when I OMGUS.Goatrevolt wrote:Why didn't he jump on me yesterday? I just feel like he set me up.
Maybe I'm missing it but could you say precisely what his agenda is?RedCoyote wrote:I contend that this is directly because of his NabNab read, and I'm voting him today because I think his spin in regards to NabNab was a ruse to get his agenda through without suspicion.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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therefore noJahudo wrote:as a strict rule
Yeah - I should probably go meta you (?), but I think the content is at minimum things pretty comfortable for scum to post and not hugely townish. Given you've noted yourself you're posting less that would be considered usual, it may be down to some outside issue like lack of time or whatever, in which case it would be good to say that. In general you seem much less aggro than when I've seen you as town, although it was probably a while ago.Jahudo wrote:If not, can you argue that my quality of posts are also lacking?
I don't think I've ever seen a scum spammer, actually.Jahudo wrote:And if quantity does matter alot, I guess you don't see many scum spammers?
cookie forthcoming~Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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also, ^ relevantElmo wrote:Personally, I think it's important on it's own - I think that, for the same amount of 'content' (however you define it) it helps a townie to post more frequently, and they're more likely to do so. Should be fairly obvious why.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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*twitch*SerialClergyman wrote:Great, well the walls weren't exactly wasted because now we're thinking town/town on goat/red, which is a good end result.
unvote vote SerialClergymanSuccinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I'm finding it really difficult not to read anything into the fact that the only two people with a stated town read on Iam are SC and Jahudo (right?), iam is pretty strongly defending Jahudo, and those are the three I dislike most right now. In particular I am bemused by reading iam as town.
I still have a significant amount of pent-up bloodlust for Jahudo. SC give me the creeps but I still haven't figured out why. O well wagon ho for the moment.
unvote vote iamausername
fwiw I feel the need to state that I don't have a particularly strong read on Incognito and would be interested in views either way. If it's not, like, horrible.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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^ add to that fact they all seem to be the primary drivers behind pops.
I mean, I think pops is town, okay, people disagree. But moreso I'm really struggling to see any legit reasoning for why he's particularly suspicious. I should probably go back and trawl, but it looked really bad when I read some of it.
Jahudo wrote:Iamausername is a solid town read for me, no way I'd vote him. pops is still my top suspect.
This really really really bothers me.iamausername wrote:If Jahudo is one of them, I am telling you right now you should knock that number down to three. Jahudo has easy target written all over him. {...} So, here is an update: pops is still scum.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?RedCoyote wrote:It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it
Bzzt, Jahudo said himself that he was posting less than usual on Day 1. He even gave a few numbers.RedCoyote wrote:I think Elmo mentioned once a long time ago that Jahudo isn't posting a lot, which is par for the course for Jahudo regardless of alignment as far as I know
My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.RedCoyote wrote:I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has
This. This wagon is abjectly terrible and I've been saying I think he's town since Day 1. If someone wants to argue the actual case that would be better than nothing, but I can only make out "lol fluff poasting" and the site is being slow as molasses so I can't effectively look back at the moment. But as stated it's sooooooo bad.Goatrevolt wrote:I can't tell if pops will be scum or town, but mark my words. If he's scum he's being bussed, because this wagon is shit.
Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?RedCoyote wrote:I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"
Since when is putting me as one of his strongest town reads ignoring me? I mean what is difficult to understand here? He perceives me and Jahudo as acting differently and suspects one and not the other. The fact that you think we're comparable in one respect doesn't actually mean you're right, or that he's supposed to see things like that, or that he's not supposed to profile based on other characteristics - I can't even remember him saying "I'm voting Jahudo primarily for being under-the-radar", I remember him saying "Jahudo's scum.RedCoyote wrote:If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.
POPS, NO-ONE WANTS TO LYNCH ECTO, IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE DYING THEN GET ON A COUNTERWAGON THAT ACTUALLY HAS LEGS, LIKE JAHUDO / IAM. tyvm.
In other news, whatever,unvote vote Jahudoare you happy now?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?RedCoyote wrote:It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it
Bzzt, Jahudo said himself that he was posting less than usual on Day 1. He even gave a few numbers.RedCoyote wrote:I think Elmo mentioned once a long time ago that Jahudo isn't posting a lot, which is par for the course for Jahudo regardless of alignment as far as I know
My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.RedCoyote wrote:I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has
This. This wagon is abjectly terrible and I've been saying I think he's town since Day 1. If someone wants to argue the actual case that would be better than nothing, but I can only make out "lol fluff poasting" and the site is being slow as molasses so I can't effectively look back at the moment. But as stated it's sooooooo bad.Goatrevolt wrote:I can't tell if pops will be scum or town, but mark my words. If he's scum he's being bussed, because this wagon is shit.
Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?RedCoyote wrote:I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"
Since when is putting me as one of his strongest town reads ignoring me? I mean what is difficult to understand here? He perceives me and Jahudo as acting differently and suspects one and not the other. The fact that you think we're comparable in one respect doesn't actually mean you're right, or that he's supposed to see things like that, or that he's not supposed to profile based on other characteristics - I can't even remember him saying "I'm voting Jahudo primarily for being under-the-radar", I remember him saying "Jahudo's scum.RedCoyote wrote:If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.
POPS, NO-ONE WANTS TO LYNCH ECTO, IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE DYING THEN GET ON A COUNTERWAGON THAT ACTUALLY HAS LEGS, LIKE JAHUDO / IAM. tyvm.
In other news, whatever,unvote vote Jahudoare you happy now?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?RedCoyote wrote:
Well why didn't you say so? All of this changes everything; how convincing! What a great debate we're having.Elmo wrote:
Well this is horrible. I'm not letting him go "without question", I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah? This is like really, really close to "pops is suspicious and Elmo doesn't suspect him so Elmo's suspicious" which is like exactly what you protested so strongly against on Day 1?RedCoyote wrote:I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!"
So how is this not linking people before they've flipped which you objected to hugely before? I mean, what exactly makes this less speculative?RedCoyote wrote:- "IIoA is a great tell... but not for Elmo it isn't "
- ...but, as iamausername would bring up, pops has no problem holding McGriddle to task for IIoA.
- (Now it seems like McGriddle is on pops' wagon, yet Elmo isn't? What a coincidence. Cue Elmo to say, "I've got a gut town read on pops and that's that!" Yeah, I'll bet he does.)
popsofctown wrote:Except the way McGriddle has been behaving it upsets me more, compared to Elmo.
So here's what pops actually said. But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?popsofctown wrote:IioA is an excellent tell, but everything matters in context. In context of all of Elmo's play, taken together, I don't think it was a scumtell for her. If the previous posts were "Quit lurking Elmo" or "<a bunch of people with equal involvement in a game where contribution levels are a total nonissue>" or "<Elmo avoiding direct questions>" (she always seems to comply afaik) then the same exact post would be an issue but that wasn't the case.
So so so.*bored*Succinctness is pro-town.
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Bits have been added to some quotes for hopefully obv reasons.
amounts toRedCoyote wrote:Overreaction/Buddying with Goat
It turns out that this makes it easier to defend himself, which you snipped off when you quoted him. It's easy to defend yourself against Goat's stated reasons, it's hard to defend links someone's drawn partially based on whatRedCoyote wrote:
This is a first for me. pops coming to bat for the player that just voted him, clarifying why it is Goat finds him scummy.pops 409 wrote:Goatrevolt's [weak sauce] reasons are independent of Nabakanov's alignment tbh. He's still hung up on the early game joke and thinks I was lying about not noticing an unvote, and doesn't like when I post fluff.
Wrong doesn't equal scum. GR doesn't scumhunt the way you would but he's trying as hard/harder than you are. Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?theydid. Alongside that, he thinks Goat's town and expressly said so, and I don't see any reason presented to think it's buddying rather than genuinely thinking he's got it wrong. If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.
Now, if I was in a bad mood, I'd just call you a hypocrite for the sake of it, but I won't because I had my cheerios today and I've been in roughly your position before and think it's a perfectly reasonable stance. But the problem is that you haven't evidenced a strong opinion either way, as far as I can see, and therefore I think both your play and pop's play is comparable in that respect. There needs to be more than "didn't clearly support and didn't clearly oppose" to be scummy to my eyes; if there is more than that, you'll need to elaborate because that's the most common meaning of fence-sitting. (Your play aside, I don't think it's scummy either, since being essentially neutral on that wagon seems perfectly reasonable to me for basically the reasons you stated.)RedCoyote wrote:It's not even that NabNab is a bad lynch (especially after the claim), it's that there has been no deviation from NabNab, and the NabNab wagon is completely comfortable with this. What's more, they're actively discouraging it, as is the case with our friends Goat and Elmo (in different ways). Goat is discouraging it by lining up future scum/town reads based on NabNab's alignment, and Elmo is doing so by simply not participating in the game.
Goat says that he can just simply drop all his reads if something doesn't go as planned, but that's not really the point. The point is D1's are very much a sketchy proposition for the town, and it's usually no more than dumb luck if they score a direct hit on a scum member. NabNab is no different, you know, there is not this huge case against NabNab. And yet, it's like, we've got these players who are so sure, so confident, that it's already a fixture in their minds. This mentality could really hurt us later in the game, I think.
RedCoyote wrote:Artifical case against Jahudo is formed on the basis that Jahudo is positioning himself to hammer NabNab (where he got this from, I still have no clue... this is just thrown in for padding),
obv not? I mean that doesn't even look close.popsofctown paraphrasing Jahudo wrote:I don't really like the Nabakov wagon, except for one point that I do like. Hopefully this makes me look good if the wagon pull through on its own, but gives me an excuse to vote if it needs help.
RedCoyote wrote:and that Jahudo is ignoring the "votes" on him... when, surprise surprise, pops was only the second vote on Jahudo's wagon.
I'd voiced some disapproval at that point, I'm not sure what other people had said. Of all the points this is probably the least thin, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect Jahudo to address what people said and hence a lack of that to be a continuation of an attempt to evade scrutiny. I think one likely wouldn't convince anyone else by that, but it seems okay as a "I suspect X because Y" reason.popsofctown paraphrasing Jahudo wrote:I'm gonna totally ignore people voting or attacking me, I'll just ride it out and hope others get more attention.
Except Jahudo posted right above pops, in 276 to pops' 277? And Incog voted in 266? wtf?RedCoyote wrote:Jahudo probably hadn't have even logged in to see Incog had voted him, and already pops is calling him out for ignoring it.
Self-preservation is entirely rational regardless of his alignment. This is just obviously not scummy in itself, I mean if you want I can show you a game where a townie didn't vote the other viable wagon who turned out to be the SK and I wanted to rip their head off.RedCoyote wrote:I don't know if we can blame him for being opportunistic and following orders, but I think pops is stretching himself too thin on Jahudo.
I mean I dunno why I bother writing this shit, it won't change anyone's mind, but there, WORD SALAD SERVED WITH A SIDE OF PASTA FOR YOU GOOD SIR.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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I don't think I've responded to what you said? I mean, I quoted Red, I'm responding to Red. It's the kind of thing where I have to go back and look in context, and the site was horrible for the past few days.Ectomancer wrote:Thanks for providing another example of what I'm talking about with Pop's, except, of course, your interpretation differs from mine. You say "I don't see it" and I say "Right there it is". Also, before you get this part wrong too, buddying is not the same as establishing ties.Succinctness is pro-town.
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So answer my question, how is saying I think he's town ignoring his play like you implied - what do you mean by "without question"? I would think that looking at his play and stating a clear conclusion was kind of the opposite of ignoring it. I've been asking you what you mean by that a couple of times in a row now.RedCoyote wrote:
Because you have. You said it yourself, "I don't want to lynch him... because I think he's town!Elmo wrote:So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?
That's kind of the point. It matters whether pops might genuinely think that, not whether you think that or even if it's actually true. You're effectively saying, I think this isn't true, therefore when pops says this is true pops must be lying. That's bad, because you haven't attempted to figure out how pops might think that.RedCoyote wrote:
Not particularly. I don't buy that you've been playing differently then him.Elmo wrote:But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?
If scum's being attacked by a townie, it makes more sense for the scum to attack them back rather than say they think they're town. That kind of interaction is highly unlikely to get Goat to stop attacking him, but it makes it harder for pops to counter-attack. In fact, it's pretty uncommon for scum to buddy up with people who're attacking them in my experience, it's arguably the worst time to try that because they're already on their guard and buddying works best when it's innocuous.RedCoyote wrote:
I don't buy this at all. In light of pops' claim, his post makes a little more sense, but even without it I don't get your rationale.Elmo 546 wrote:If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.
Now, something like this? This I could potentially see as buddying, for example.popsofctown wrote:
Haha, I <3 Elmo.Elmo wrote:
Zeez bad feeliks you haff, are zey from ze stomack or zee liveer?iamausername wrote:Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.
Well, here's what I found:RedCoyote wrote:I made it clear that I didn't like the NabNab lynch up until the claim, at which point I no longer had grounds to protest it. It was different in pops' case. He specifically said, "Well I have a bad gut read but... I dunno... I guess the lynch is a-okay. "popsofctown wrote:I don't know what I think of Naba btw, besides his last few posts which aren't great. I'll reread him if you guys don't lynch him on your own, but it looks like y'all are going to.popsofctown wrote:I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.
and I really can't find anything that matches your characterisation of his stance. Possibly it's there, but I looked at the posts you linked in your case summary. His general stance looks similar to yours, in that you both have essentially null reads on NabNab, but you take issue with the mechanics of the wagon. I don't think it's quite fair to say you objected to NabNab's lynch, more like you objected to the way in which the wagon progressed.popsofctown wrote:That was six days ago. He did bug my gut back then, doesn't do so now. *shrug*
I don't know why you're saying that, I don't particularly agree with the point, and I think I just said that. He didn't say Jahudo should sound the alarms or panic, just offer up some kind of response, which would (pretty clearly) be the pro-town thing to do. I think it's a reasonable, if somewhat thin, point of view; that is, I can perfectly well see pops-town saying that, and hence I don't think it's scummy. Personally, I would have mildly expected Jahudo to do so but don't think the lack of such is scummy.RedCoyote wrote:Jahudo should sound the alarms over L-6? Get real, Elmo.
No, it's not. You know you have zero chance of being scum, and someone else, even picked completely at random has a greater than zero chance. Any chance at hitting scum is better than none. Someone should absolutely prefer any lynch in the game (other than a confirmed innocent or such) to their own.RedCoyote wrote:No, not in itself. It's scummy when you don't agree with the lynch.
I haven't complained about that. I.. really don't care what you feel.RedCoyote wrote:And you can bitch and moan about having to actually defend your positions all you want, it doesn't make me feel sympathy, guilt, or whatever other emotion you are trying to appeal to.Succinctness is pro-town.
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unvote
Yeah, I don't dislike this at all, it's just that I almost always worry about backgroundsy people being a power role of some sort and mostly they're not. Ah well.Jahudo wrote:This role has been pretty uncomfortable so far, trying to lay low (which i guess is "backgroudsy") so we could survive when there's only a few people left in the game and masons are more valuable.
Gonna think about the claims.. I approve of massclaim at this point.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I thought you'd be a great choice, in fact I said so vocally to my scumbuddies last night.Goatrevolt wrote:I'm wondering why I was chosen to be NKed, assuming Ecto/Pops are to be believed. I thought I was a pretty unlikely choice, all things considered.
Can I perhaps get a teensy bit of town credit for defending pops? No?RedCoyote wrote:pops' claim is easier to swallow, as he has a useful power. Elmo would probably be my go to lynch, but I've been wanting a McGriddle lynch since early in D1.Succinctness is pro-town.
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