Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Looking forward to this game.

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Kill before end of page.

Did you want to elaborate on this?

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Lynch that which you don't understand. It's a time honored human tradition.

I was seriously thinking that exact same thing. I just chalked it up to being an American.

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A question for all; if you were scum, how would we tell?

Hmm... I think I have more of an agenda as scum, as broad as that sounds.

And the vote is okay since I think we were on opposite sides the last game we were in together.

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What is THIS supposed to mean? Does this mean that you discussed with one of your scum buddies at the beginning of the game and told him you would vote for him?

I don't understand your conclusion. Could you elaborate some? Is this supposed to be a joke?

[RedCoyote]

On a more serious note, I think pops is scum. My vote wasn't random. Something about his first post rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like he was trying too hard to appear casual/joking and it came off as forced. Then he tried to joke when I called him scum, but it felt forced again, and hell, he didn't deny it.

I've heard worse justifications. I don't necessarily think you're scummy for this, but I don't really understand it. Why would scum need to appear "casual/joking"? I mean, I get the idea that you want to blend in, but do you mean like scum have a harder time appearing as though they're jovial and carefree?

Maybe it's just because I don't get this from pops' opening post at all. I don't think it's forced, and even if I thought that, I don't know if I would immediately jump to the conclusion that pops was scum. Not only do you do that, but you also immediately attempt to box him in. If anything, I see

your

aggression as over-the-top.

This is coming from someone who usually sees aggression as a positive, too.

Anyways, I'm taking Incog's position on this one, and I'm also liking you and him calling out SC:

SerialClergyman's post 35 stuck out to me too because it didn't really address some of the major things that have been brought up on this page. SC, any other thoughts on anyone else so far aside from me?

Agreed 100%. He read and responded to the portion of my post directed at him in 4 minutes time. That suggests he was "camping" the thread. If he was just checking in from the last time he had posted, he would have had to read like 10 posts from his last post and also type up a response to mine which would probably take longer than 4 minutes, and that's if he timed it perfectly too.

The part that bothers me most is that he didn't react at all to my 3 paragraphs on pops, only picking out the part that pertained to him and responding to it. Then 7 minutes later I asked him about his thoughts on pops and no further response.

This I can get behind, not as much for him "not bringing up any other thoughts on anyone else", but because, as Goat says, he clarifies his vote with three paragraphs in a clear, reasonable way. Goat no doubt wants some honest feedback on his vote, and he's essentially saying, "Look, my pops vote is serious, dammit".

I don't get how SC missed that, unless he just flat out ignored it.

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Well at least your buddies know your opinion there after you get lynched today and can't deliver it in your QT

I look forward to McGriddle answering Incog and me.

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I don't see anything wrong with goat's attacks or choice of words.

Explain, please.

Nab has earned my vote

Did you forget to vote or was this just a figure of speech?

[RedCoyote]

I don't see anything wrong with goat's attacks or choice of words.

You're wrong about me, unconvincing about pops and your self-assured language isn't a scumtell.

Hmmm...

[RedCoyote]

I love how you say you've heard worse justification to preface 3 paragraphs talking about how bad you think my justifications are.

Come on, Goat. Now you're just trying to start trouble, aren't you?

That's pretty clear. I've heard worse reasons for a vote, but I still don't buy into yours.

It has nothing to do with scum needing to appear anything.

What are you talking about? You said like you felt his joke came off as forced, and, as a direct result of that, you voted him. You said your vote wasn't random. Logic dictates that your vote was a result of how you thought scum would appear.

You wouldn't jump to the conclusion he was immediately scum and "box him in" but does that mean it was wrong for me to do so?

Wrong as in scummy? No, I said specifically that I didn't think you were scummy for it. I also said that I agreed with Incog's take on you.

How did I box him in, what does that mean, why is it a bad thing, was my over-the-top aggression anti-town, and if yes, then why?

You box him in by asking him a loaded question, and an obvious one at that. I feel as though you're the one, and this post is another good example, who is acting "unnatural" and fake sounding. Questions are great, but this seems over-the-top. You sound defensive, almost paranoid, of my criticism. You say that you felt pops was trying too hard to look natural, but in the same breath you say that your vote had nothing to do with how pops needed to appear. Huh? Is there really an argument here, or are you just playing Mr. Interrogator?

I'm wondering why you haven't voted either.

Nothing has tickled my fancy yet. I'm leaning toward throwing my weight behind McGriddle or SC, but I still feel like we haven't really heard from everyone in the game yet.

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

I see a contradiction there.

1) You said you didn't see anything wrong with Goat's attacks.
2) Goat says that he is attacking you.
3) You said he's wrong about his attacks against you.

Did you mean that Goat has done nothing wrong

outside

of his attacks on you?

[RedCoyote]

Ah. seeing nothing wrong with his attacks is different to judging whether he's right or wrong in his conclusions.

It makes more sense when I view it in this context. You're using the word wrong to mean two different things.

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@Red - give us your breakdown and thoughts on SC beyond a "Hmmm" over a quote that has nothing wrong with it please.

I see a contradiction there.

1) You said you didn't see anything wrong with Goat's attacks.
2) Goat says that he is attacking you.
3) You said he's wrong about his attacks against you.

Did you mean that Goat has done nothing wrong

outside

of his attacks on you?

Red is an experienced player and should be well aware of that little quirk of mafia, so a lengthy breakdown of what is wrong with a case we all know is a kick-off case is counter-productive and busy work.

Goat made it clear he wanted a serious response to his case against pops, and I responded in kind. Was I supposed to be gentle? The vigor with which Goat pursued it alone should count for something, let alone the fact that Goat found scum in the first post of the game.

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Your argument against my initial "case" on pops was "why would he need to do that as scum?" I'm saying that he didn't "need" to do that as scum, but it doesn't mean he didn't do that as scum.

I don't have a grand theory of scum appearing as jokesters in the random phase. I just thought that pops' specific post came off as really fake and so I pressured him on it to see what came from it.

You put case in quotation marks as though you didn't sit there and say your vote was serious. Are you implying that you never considered pops to be scum or that you weren't making a case?

So you don't know how scum would appear, but you know that pops appeared to be scum? But it wasn't because of his joke, but the way he delivered the joke?

If you think I'm unnatural and fake sounding, then by all means have at it. I'm not paranoid of your criticism at all. As for defensive, sure, I am. You attacked my stance, what did you expect, me to ignore and not defend myself?

Don't take it out of the relative frame with which I made the statement, but yes, ironically, I would say that the forcefulness with which you pushed your case on pops was more fake than the fakeness argument you were pushing on pops.

I was just a little surprised when I made an effort to give a neutral stance of, "I don't think I buy your argument, possibly because I don't understand it, but if I had to choose I would say it makes you seem like you're reaching", you were right there ready to fire back at me as though I had my sights on you.

You don't think my actions surrounding pops were scummy, but yet you're really attacking it nonetheless. You like aggressive play, but yet you find me "too aggressive" and are taking a sarcastic jab at my aggressiveness by calling me "Mr. Interrogator". In essence, I agree a lot with what Ecto said. Can you explain these?

Well, that's a fairly loose definition of attacking, especially when you've since abandoned that case. I think it's being blown up from an honest response to a player saying, "Hey, here is a serious vote, what do you think guys?" Moreover, I think you're splitting hairs over how someone can appear like scum, how someone needs to appear, how someone wants to appear, how magicians make rabbits disappear... etc

You agree with a lot of what Ecto said. Ecto thinks I'm being passive aggressive, and, I imagine, he is implying that I'm subtlely rooting for a Goat wagon. Do you agree with that?

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, your posts kind of give me two different impressions about what you think of Goatrevolt. You've said more than once you don't find him scummy, but your tone and wording more than once seems to imply suspicion. Do you think it's scummy to sound fake and unnatural?

Well, I'm certainly not assuming he's town. I obviously don't give him the same credit you do for his approach to the game so far, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to vote him. Are those positions compatible?

And yes.

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Make sense?

Yes. Well, yes in the sense that this all sounds more convoluted and scatterbrained than even I had originally thought.

Hypothetically, even if I were scum here, this wouldn't be something I would be paranoid about. Me firing back at people who criticize/attack me is pretty much a facet of my playstyle. When people attack me I like to try to figure out how honest they are in their attack and whether they truly believe it or not. I find it easier to get a read on players that way.

Mmmm...

There's still something wrong with this. Maybe I didn't use enough smileys, because I still contend that I didn't see it much of an "attack". I of course understand you asking questions and firing back at me, but the proportion, I thought, was off. In a way I can't blame you, because I guess it was the biggest chunk of text I had written in one setting, but the way you jump to the conclusion that you needed to be fending me off is off-putting.

What I mean by that is you've spent the bulk of your time going back and forth with me and yet you don't even believe me to be scum, or at least you aren't pushing for it.

I'll have to concede that I'm not doing a very good job here. I should definitely have some sort of bankable vote. Is it my fault that I liked the answers that McGriddle and SC both gave me? XD

Vote: Elmo

on the back of NabNab's post 100. I'd argue she's the last player to make a "real" post, and there's really nothing there that gives it substance. I'm not opposed to dropping a vote like that in principle, but I am opposed to it when there's both been no record of your perspective in the game and you've also failed to give more insight when asked to do so. It's nice that she showed up the second someone asked about her, but what little the response has to offer is steeped in a previous game's meta.

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.....................55 pages?

You wouldn't be playing up the fluff posts to coax us with your lovable meta, would you?

[RedCoyote]

I post fluff with both alignments now. I found out it's actually pretty fun.

I guess the only way for us to figure you out is through a lynch?

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I don't have much of a read on anyone else except pops.

I don't think that's going to cut it, McGriddle.

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I think the above is both utterly believable and very unlikely to come from scum.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

I don't really get this. Could either of you expand on it? Sure, I believe Ecto and Goat have a history and now are trying to treat each other differently, how does that influence either of their alignments?

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So, assuming McGriddle's suspicion of pops' is based on goat's case or some derivative of it, his only real contribution to the game has been a reason to preemptively doubt any non-vanilla claims pops might make. Funny how this obtuse piece of analysis just happens to play into the dominant wagon.

Even though I agree with you in principle the only reason why I can't get behind this is because I happen to be well aware of how McGriddle came to his conclusion. He isn't wrong, and his meta of pops as a leading figure isn't something he pulled out of thin air. That being said, the way he's gone about voting him is awkward to say the least, and especially this quote above (post #124) where I'm sensing a resistance to really do more than dip his toe into the game.

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Untrue, I have been doing what I can to help town, and also answering any questions I have been asked. Could you tell me how that is scummy?

I wouldn't agree with this, and I think you're proving NabNab's point.

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Oh, okay.

I don't find anything important thus far.

You've even got the little Cookie Monster trollface going on. I love it. XD

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In his first post he felt the need to approve iamausername's random stage vote on him, which is odd.

I was trying more to acknowledge that I got the joke.

I'd like RedCoyote to clarify what his current stance on Goatrevolt is. He's called him unnatural and fake sounding but also said that he doesn't find him scummy.

Originally I didn't, but I sensed an uneasiness about him in his reply to me. I specifically said that I didn't think he was scummy, as you pointed out, but then I found myself on the receiving end on a series of questions that I thought was over-the-top (e.g. "What do you mean box in?", "How was it problematic?", "Need versus appear?"). Goat acknowledges that he was defending himself against my "attack", when in reality I was acting fairly neutral. If I wanted to make more of what Goat was doing, then I had a vote to use. I also could've jumped in earlier to question Goat's motivations, but I didn't really think it was a big deal, hence why I specifically said that I didn't think he was scummy. Ecto takes it a step further to say I was delibrately being subtle and passive aggressive, mostly because I should've treated Goat's original case more delicately.

If an analogy helps: I looked at Goat and saw a molehill, Goat says that I saw a hill, and Ecto argues that I was sneakily trying to point out a mountain.

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What does having a bankable vote have to do with spending your time on Goat? You mean it would provide a better backdrop while you banter with the guy you don't think is scummy?

That's too simplistic of a summary. Goat made it clear in an earlier post that he noticed that I hadn't voted anyone, and this was an extension of that same theme.

Additionally, just because I thought Goat v.s. pops wasn't scummy doesn't necessarily mean I'm sold on his towniness. I mean, that was the entire reason why I fired back at him. You understand that, right?

What does McGriddle and SC have to do with you and Goat?

My vote was headed in either direction until both players cut my legs out from under me.

Elmo's slightly annoying playstyle thus far? So, like this is the case you would ride to lynch? I don't buy that.

Why not? If Elmo's contributions are limited to "X is a good post" and "Y is town", then there's no reason to keep him around. There's no vulnerability in that. When asked to clarify, he declines to do so. Elmo says nothing important is going on, and yet he found two townies already. That's pretty pro, huh?

[RedCoyote]

Dunno where this is true.

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something.

Care to elaborate on... anything?

(emphasis added)

It was Patrick, there was this post in Satin Doll Showdown where I waffled and I keep thinking he said it was scummy but then I remember he told me he didn't (I think?)

I think you did say something about waffling in reference to my stance on Adel in Tofu Day 2 tho.

I'm entralled with my vote, I just can't remember why I put it there

If you want to get technical, then I suppose that's an elaboration of a previous game. I certainly don't want to speak for NabNab, but I thought it was pretty apparent he was referring to your vote.

p.p.s. Out of curiosity, why do you think you started out referring to me as she?

I honestly confused you for someone else, initially. Given that you didn't have many posts, I just kind of scrolled though and thinking I had seen the Venus symbol (is that the proper name?).

When someone else said referred to you as a he I had to do a double take.

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What about the fact that pops' leading role in that game was to break it, something that isn't really possible in this game at this point?

I had just assumed that wasn't intentional. That is thinking multiple steps ahead. I think McGriddle was merely saying, "pops not playing to his townmeta = red flag", rather than analyzing all the details as to why that was the case.

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To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

Would you say that either instance would be acceptable grounds for a D1 lynch though (with preference to the latter)?

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Although I don't feel the same way now as I did, I still find him scummy, but I also see a possible you and nab pairing, so for that reason I am going to

Unvote

and hold my vote for a little while.

A couple of questions: Why are you choosing to "hold" your vote as opposed to using it on NabNab or Jahudo? Also, what has given you a change of heart about pops? Was it something specifically he said, have other players influenced this decision, or was it all a mental process in your own head?

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Red/Nabs, is Elmo more likely than average to be scum?

Absolutely; that's why my vote is where it is.

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I get a gut buddying feel for you 2.

What about between Ecto and Goat? Elmo and Pat? Is there something special you can point to in the case of NabNab and Jahudo, other than the fact they've both looked at you with suspicion?

[RedCoyote]

No, if I felt someone was being anti-town but couldn't definitively say that I thought his or her behavior was more likely to come from scum, I wouldn't be willing to support that person's lynch. You would?

Of course. I don't subscribe NabNab's point of view that Elmo is acting in "bad form" (I'd say he's probably just trying to be cute), but I'd definitely be willing to lynch someone on the first day who I thought was actively hurting the town's chances at victory, because that's the best time to do so.

That being said, no one here would fall under that category.

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I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

This is kind of a big step to make. I mean, I think I understand McGriddle's mindset (in regards to the pops situation), but I'm not ready to say I have no problems with his play. His latest vote especially has me particularly interested.

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I want to put it on Naab, but I want to do some ISOing and more hunting before I put him at L-2. I have not necessarily had a change of heart, just a better candidate come up.

This really does not sound honest to me, if I can be frank with you. You say he's a "better candidate" than pops, but not good enough to vote just yet. You say you want to reread over his posts, but how do you know he's a "better candidate" if you aren't familiar with what he's said?

In other words, I'd be willing to cut you slack here if you told me, "Well, I noticed NabNab say 'blah blah' in post X and 'blah blah' in post Y, and it caught my attention. I need to go back and see if this is a pattern of behavior, or if there was an explanation for why he said this".

Why do I feel like you're making it up as you go along?

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Clarification was not elaboration last time I consulted a dictionary.

That's cute. If you want to be obstinate, that's you're call. I'm just calling it how I see it.

I actually thought it was rhetorical, but I figure #145 woulda answered it if not.

Funny, I was just talking to Ecto about that. It seems like you haven't found anything worthwhile this game, and yet you've already got a few townies picked out. That's pretty impressive, so what's your secret?

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One really key interaction I noted was the one between SerialClergyman and Nabakov. If Nabakov ends up as scum, I bet SC is as well. SC called out Nabakov, but didn't vote him in that post. I found that really odd at the time, and then when called out on it by Red Coyote, he votes for Red Coyote next, and never goes back to Nabakov, which I also found odd. When the Nabakov wagon picks up, SerialClergyman jumps on immediately. Distance, distance, distance! There is a strong chance the two are scum together.

I can see that connection, most definitely. I don't really get scum vibes from NabNab, but if I'm wrong, I'd want to look at SC a little more.

In direct opposition to Nabakov's push, I felt like his stance on pops was natural and honest.

We're beyond this stage, I think. I agree with the second part of the sentence. McGriddle was just kind of speaking his mind of pops. I think McGriddle backing away from pops and moving toward NabNab has felt very sloppy though.

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Fine Nab, the only reason I didn't vote fo you was because I was going to go back and ISO you, but I don't have time for that

Unvote; vote: McGriddle

You don't have time for it? Do you feel rushed? Are you going V/LA? I don't think you've even given a reason for why it is you're suddenly seeing scum in NabNab.

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But when I ask "Why did you feel the need to totally breakdown Goat's non-scummy starter case?", I am definitely NOT looking for "Oh, well my vote was going somewhere else, but those guys weren't scummy haha."

Goat said he wanted the case to be taken seriously, and offered it up for public discourse. I consented, and gave him my honest opinion. I don't know where you get this idea that you think Goat would've wanted me to sugarcoat my feelings or be gentle with him. My opinion was not far removed from Incog's, in fact I even said that I basically agreed with what Incog had to say about Goat v.s. pops.

I took it a step further to say that I thought the loaded question was awkward and too forceful of an approach, but that didn't cause me grief given that fact that I had seen other things that interested me more than Goat at that point in the game.

I don't know where I've been unclear about any of this, and I certainly haven't been dishonest or dodgy.

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It may not be surprising, but you're using it as evidence against me. You're suggesting that it's likely that Serial(scum) is more likely to completely ignore a giftwrapped case on Pops(???) and instead push (however feebly in your opinion) suspicion on Nabarov(scum mate).

This is really, really awkward sounding. I don't like this at all. At no point did I ever consider pops a "giftwrapped case", and just the notion strikes me as misleading.

People Serial wouldn't lynch today include:

Incognito
Goatrevolt
iamausername
Patrick
Ectomancer

Why did you put iamausername on that list? I don't recall you exchanging with him much at all. Personally, I don't know how anyone could have a solid read on him at this point, let alone a "he's good enough to not lynch" read.

At the same time, NabNab started egging you to push on me, and then attacked Elmo and McGriddle, the two easiest targets in the game.

That's debatable. I mean, I get what you're saying here, but I don't think anyone should be too quick to call anyone the "easy lynch". I think we're missing a lot from both of these players at the moment, and in the case of McGriddle especially, I think some players may be trying to find reasons to excuse him.

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My Father-in-law's funeral was yesterday and so I hope I can be excused. (A fantastic send off for an amazing guy. He was a nuclear physicist who worked for General Dynamics and was a Grand Commandant of the Knights Templar and Grandfather to my children)

My condolences. He sounds like he was an amazing man.

[RedCoyote]

I understand where you are coming from, McGriddle. I have finals coming up in the next few weeks as well. If you think you've got too much going on in your life, then there's no shame in replacing out.

I mean, I don't want to feel like I'm misreading you because you honestly don't have the time to commit to the game. On the same token, I don't want you to get away with "Here is a vote, but I don't have time to do anything else so later" if you are scum.

[RedCoyote]

By giftwrapped case, he means a case that is easy to piggyback on, take ownership of, and push to lynch.

I gathered that. I just don't understand why he thought that. I don't think you were anywhere close to being a sure lynch, with or without SC's support.

I also like your case against SC, and I'm anxious to hear his response to you.

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Would that include someone who literally wasn't posting anything (and wouldn't be replaced or killed under the ruleset)?

Sure, that would be acceptable. If a Mod wasn't keeping up with the game and there was a player who was effectively lurking for the entire day. The town shouldn't have to carry that weight.

[RedCoyote]

What would you consider to be something that might actively hurt the town's chances at winning on a Day 1 that would come from someone you believe is more likely to be anti-town than scummy?

An example that tends to stick out in my mind is CSL in Caught in the Crossfire. Throughout the day there was nothing really being produced, and towards the end he just became more and more hostile, emotional, and erratic. That's a strain on the town, and one that I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a pass. I think a player like that would hurt the town's chances at victory if left in the game for an extended period of time.

I don't subscribe to this viewpoint because I've seen too many cases particularly in Newbie Games where I see a player who's being attacked, I think that player is being attacked for things that are anti-town but not scummy, and I end up writing the player off as town and begin focusing my efforts on the other people in the game. Clearing that one player as town would then allow me to narrow the pool of suspects by one less player, and by doing so I've therefore increased my chances of hitting scum while keeping the vote and opinion of someone who's likely town alive and kicking to be used against scum assuming I'm right about the player in question. That's pretty important, no?

I'd say that Newbie Games are a different animal altogether, but yes, I get where you're coming from. Do you think that's happening here?

Also, what do you mean by your comments that you think Elmo is doing things just to be cute?

"How can I be scum when I post the cookie monster! "

"Goat is prolly town"

"After consulting a dictionary... "

Not that any of this is necessarily bad, actually I think it lightens the mood a little bit, but not when it's coupled with zero substance. I just don't assume people are town because of their demeanor.

I certainly wouldn't consider lynching SC at this time as I've generally gotten a good feeling about him for a good portion of the game so far.

Is there something specific you can point to? I understand a disagreement, but to the point where you wouldn't even consider lynching him? That's fairly strong support. Is it just because of pops?

---

Because for me, the question of whether I'd be willing to lynch someone I thought was anti-town but not particularly scummy would be pretty centrally dependant on whether I thought there were other players who were particularly scummy.

For sure. I made that clear when I asked him, because you should always give deference to lynching the scummy player.

Not directed at me, I know, but I'd say a good place to start is looking for the people who aren't saying things like this.

Cute. Assuming that, then why not verbalize it?

---

Not directly.. I'm mostly checking my perception of how much people are posting.

And your perception is? Do you have any A to go with your I?

---

Goat and McGriddle have both admitted to a lack of justification (though promised some to come in the future); Elmo and SC have largely been silent on the matter since their vote.

I wonder if it's a coincidence that I've been none too happy with this group, to varying degrees.

[RedCoyote]

RC: Get over it. You're not happy with me because I bothered to try to get a read on you after you said you didn't find me scummy but wrote 3 paragraphs on what was wrong with my case anyway.

Does it really bother you that much that I'm not throwing myself at the marvelous Goatrevolt? You ask a lot of questions. Great. You're getting people riled up. Awesome. I'm not going to be browbeat into this mindset that Goat must be town because of all this activity, and I'm certainly not going to change my mind over a quote like, "Nobody else feels the same way as you do". That's the very definition of an appeal to popularity.

As I recall, the last time you twisted my arm into reading you as a townie, you came up as scum, so this post definitely isn't helping things.

[RedCoyote]

In my experience, D1 is betterp layed on gut than on confirmation-biased paragraphs of language analysis. I'd prefer to see a lynch. Also - I'd lynch any one of Jahudo, Red and Nab, at least.

Sometimes it's like I feel very distant from you, but other times I think you're right on the nose. I obviously don't agree with your conclusion, but you're right about how the D1 lynch should go. From where I'm standing, McGriddle, Elmo, or Goat should eat the first lynch.

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I don't understand the question. What is the "it" in this question referring to, if not the very thing that I am verbalising right there, in the post that you quoted?

Oh, no, I'm referring to Elmo, not you. Why didn't Elmo verbalize it? Why didn't Elmo call me out for it, assuming he even agrees with it, or call someone else out for something else?

What I'm seeing is a town McGriddle who earnestly believes that NabNab is scum, but is having a hard time figuring out exactly why, and since no one else is helping him out much on that front, he's just having to throw whatever he can think of out there.

And there's no self-interest involved?

Maybe it's because I don't even really get where the NabNab suspicion is coming from that I'm not able to take it seriously. The only thing I've been able to understand so far is the criticism of Elmo's reactivity while asking for Elmo to react. I think that's pretty weak argument against NabNab, and I otherwise haven't seen anything with any real meat on it.

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Actually the reason I even bothered to respond to that is because you seem to be ignoring Nab or thinking of him as town at least partially because I'm on the wagon and you incorrectly believe me to be scum. I'm telling you that you're wrong about me and probably wrong about Nabakov as well.

SC is really more prescient than I'm giving him credit for, because this is exactly what he was talking about. Contrast this quote with Pat's post 260, and you'll see the difference I'm talking about. It's like you're already on D4 in your head, and you have this game all wrapped up in a neat little package. What if NabNab flips town? Does that sink the Jahudo/pops thing? Does that sink your read on me or anyone else?

No, I don't think I've seen anything worthwhile on NabNab, and I don't think I'll be joining the wagon at this juncture. I think few people have taken McGriddle seriously, and ironically, I think by letting him off, giving him a pass, that's giving him less credit than by holding him more accountable. I'm comfortable with my vote, and my positions, and I'm not going to be muscled into this idea that Goat is right because he's in the "popular" group. Goat is right because his ideas are popular, and they're popular because they're right... and round and round we go.

Here, you don't really have anything legitimate at all, and I haven't twisted your arm either. I think you are the one who is paranoid that I'm scum.

Please! Everytime I have the audacity to question you I get the third degree. You play ignorant when I make a few observations toward your behavior, and then I get told that I should get in line with what's "popular"?

---

What I'm now interested in is the contrast between RedCoyote's treatment of me and iam/Jahudo. Hrm.

While I like this post, I still don't like the fact that it had to be dragged out of you. Maybe it is just your playstyle.

iamausername is in a completely different plane. We've got him criticizing me, and others, in a clear, consistent matter. You, on the other hand, make posts like, "This is a solid post", "Goat is prolly town", and I have no idea what direction you're going in and what gives you these interpretations.

Jahudo has also been fairly clear, although I think he's been a little more mobile than iamausername has been. Still, I can point to a number of his posts and show you how he's explained himself and how he's gotten to his conclusions.

A better player to contrast you with would be McGriddle at this point in the game.

---

Why is he suddenly getting heat for posting info? It's not negative analysis, it's just not analysis.

That's the thing though. Why wasn't there any analysis? Why is Elmo afraid to put himself out there? I'm glad he got something out of it, but, again, it was only because it was forced out of him.

---

I love Pops comment "He wasn't doing anything before, so why should he start now?" A -1 to Pops.
Yeah Pops, he wasn't doing anything, and when it finally was time to offer up his insights, did we get them? No, we got a player post count. A freaking player post count. And the result? "Some people posted more than I thought, some people posted less". Wow. I'm shocked at that result.

Agreed.

---

There's nothing that can reasonably be interpreted as me going OMG HERE'S SOME AWESOME ANALYSIS, I AM TOTALLY TOWN 8) 8).

This is wrong just by virtue of the fact that you said you had an opinion about it, but you declined to give it to us.

[RedCoyote]

Did you combine a few posts? Because I hadn't noticed that post before, but it is definitely something to look in to.

He's altering Jahudo's post to make it look like that is what he "really" means. I don't like that either. In fact, I think it's pretty darn unnecessary and needlessly frustrating to make a post like that. pops is doing just about everything he can to completely reverse my earlier townread of him. Moreover, I don't even get the immediate swap to Jahudo, right after he got through telling us he was still comfortable with his SC case.

I have a rainbow list of my own, but its a scummy to town list, and hot to cold

As you may or may not know, I happen to like posts like this. Some players (I think Ecto was the only one, there may have been someone else), have stated that you shouldn't "reveal your hand", as it were, by posting all your townreads too flagrantly. I think that's nonsense, personally, but it's more a political disagreement than anything else.

Anyways, the point I'm driving at is that I like you putting yourself out there. I have to say though, I just don't really get some of the positioning here. I

know

you thought this out, McGriddle. Either you thought it out because you were honestly trying to gauge us, or you thought it out because you think this will get you the most sympathy from the town. You have to explain the NabNab and iamausername's positons, I think. I don't think you've done a good enough job of that. In fact, I think I asked you (either you or SC) earlier to explain why iamausername was high on your townlist, given his limited posting (this was before his last 2-3 posts).

Another thing that kind of sticks out is how Pops/Jahudo are next to each other.

One more thing, it has to do more with my inability to distinguish colors as clearly I'd like to, is the group of Pat through SC all the same color (Yellow)? If so, is there any significance between the different colors?

---

I haven't seen any questions directed at me, and I don't have any bad feeling about Incog's vote on me. Of course, you just look like you've been waiting to vote me for a while on old reasoning, but were afraid of the OMGUS backlash of doing it too early.

I'm not prepared to say his vote gives you points, because I'm honestly not sure what his intentions were with it, but I definitely understand this point here. It seems to me, like, ever since you voted him he has been slowly but surely inching his way closer to voting you. He basically ignored you throughout the first part of the game, and some of these exaggerations he posted about you seem out of the blue. I can understand the last sentence, that you're hoping to fly under the radar, but I don't get where he's coming up with the idea that you're priming to jump on NabNab. I haven't really seen any indication of that.

Let me ask you straight up though, do you have an intention to do so?

---

@McGriddle: You know, in all that time you spent typing color tags, you could have been playing the game. I mean, your list functions perfectly well as a list. Elmo only color-coded so his votecount would make sense. Do you see why I occasionally feel that you're being disingenuous?

I'm not going to go so far as to say that list was specifically disingenuous, at least not until I hear his reasoning behind it. I get your point though, what McGriddle needs to do going forward is show, through scumhunting, why these players are where they are. If he doesn't then he needs to be the lynch today.

---

I really don't know why you equate asking me a question with dragging stuff out of me. You asked me a question, I answered it. (It's actually a shitty post, but whatever floats your boat.)

Why do you think it's a shitty post? Are you being serious, or is that a joke that I'm not getting? You don't see a difference between that post and your previous involvement in the game?

This is really really bad.

It's true. Before your "shitty" post, when had you last mentioned your vote on NabNab? Or indicated that you're leaning toward a new direction with your suspicions, if you are?

---

That took like 30 seconds because I am not a noob.

Quotes like this really have me worried that you have tunnelvision. This strikes me as more emotional than it is objective.

---

On a more theoretical level I hate attacks on people for not voting, outside of a few circumstances. I think I've been pretty clear what I think and why I'm not voting. If I think someone else is more suspicious than Nabakov then I'll vote them.

Let's just be as clear as possible then. You're on the NabNab wagon in spirit, but you're waiting for the deadline to draw closer.

One question though, do you think making scum pairings and packaging the game up is scummy or bad play? Again, not really the vibe I got from him when he was scum.

It is genuine. I haven't been riding Goat too hard, because, in a way, he's right. I don't think people are receptive to a Goat wagon. Moreover, I'm certainly not sold on it myself, but I am not ready to write him off as town.

I would say that yes, looking too far ahead in the game is anti-town. Either you're trying to set yourself up for cases further down the road, or you're not accounting for unknown factors that will throw off your read. We don't know anything yet, so to get wrapped up in a mindset that, "Once X flips town/scum, then we can go after Y". I don't mind someone explaining how they see ties or explaining their suspicions, but I draw the line when scum/townreads become dependant on certain flips to go in your favor.

---

What do you get out of this compared to what you said about me?

I understand the bad feelings about Goat, and I agree with the townreads on RC and Ecto. I don't know what you mean by comparing this to you, and you'll have to elaborate on that.

---

Now that we seem to have hit the stopping point for reasonless votes, I'm ready to fight this wagon like hell. Even if it doesn't prevent my lynch, I want to fight this wagon because that's the best thing I can do for the town given the position I'm in.

Let's talk brass tacks. We need an alternative lynch. I think the wagon against you is little more than group of arbitrary names, most of them have had more to say about other people than they have their own vote (SC, Goat, Elmo), and none of them, from what I can tell, are actively engaging you. It's like they're talking to one another about you, rather than talking to you directly.

Regardless what anyone thinks about NabNab, we really should bring someone else under fire at this point. NabNab should not be allowed to coast into the noose, especially if he flips town. Who is a reasonable alternative? I've said Elmo or McGriddle, but I think I'd now be supportive of pops as well.

[RedCoyote]

tl;dr = Elmo is still scum, Goat is still overrated, and the claim is suspicious.

---

It's more "Elmo's afraid to post analysis and only did because of being forced to" that's really really bad. Like, wat.

You are. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. It's not bad because it's true:

Elmo being forthright (heh)

Posting Review

Goatrevolt - 33 (Score = 1.78)
popsofctown - 29 (Score = 1.56)
Ectomancer - 28 (Score = 1.51)
Incognito - 21 (Score = 1.14)
SerialClergyman - 20 (Score = 1.08)
NabakovNabakov - 17 (Score = 0.92)
Elmo - 17 (Score = 0.92)
McGriddle - 16 (Score = 0.86)
Patrick - 13 (Score = 0.70)
RedCoyote - 11 (Score = 0.59)
Jahudo - 10 (Score = 0.54)
iamausername - 7 (Score = 0.38)

Total: 222 posts over 162 hours; 222 / 12 = 18.5 post / person --> score(n) = 18.5 / n.

I quite like clowns.

Here you make a post tally, randomly, not indicating before that post counts interested you, not indicating

within the very post

what significance this has for you. You're not saying anything except for that clown remark.

Elmo, do you draw any conclusions from that?

Of course someone has to ask you what significance it has, or, I contend, you would've let it sit there indefinitely.

What's your answer?

Not directly.. I'm mostly checking my perception of how much people are posting. It was useful, I was quite off on some people - I figure it helps if everyone can use that.

"Nope."

You just want to see how the stats match up with the posts, you claim. Okay, fine, but what conclusions? What analysis? Do you think it's a scum indicator? Do you think it's a town indicator? Who do you think can use it? What provoked you into doing it in the first place? Do you think it was necessary? Do you think there wasn't enough going on?

I don't know the answers to any of these, because you're delibrately being vauge and close-lipped. Only after, not just Incog, but NabNab,

You haven't mentioned anything about what your rainbow has told you.Care to share?

and me,

And your perception is? Do you have any A to go with your I?

had to all badger you to please provide us with some sort of analysis. If that's not being forced to do something, then I don't know what is. Three people had to ask you essentially the same question, and that's just unacceptable. It's something a townie should want to give, they should want to give their perceptions on the game. Otherwise it's as if they're trying to hide their true opinions, trying to get away with letting other players fight against each other. You post this information without suspicions and/or praise for certain players, it's like you're just trying to add fuel to the fires going on around you.

I find it kinda hard to swallow that idea that you're so het up about me and yet don't seem to be very curious at all about Iam / Jah, not even considering them viable alternative lynches when, subjectively, I think their contribution (in terms of making cases / taking positions) and involvement (trying to make interesting stuff happen) is pretty sub-standard, definitely should be enough to evoke ire from you based on what you said earlier.

Compare this post (iamausername #85), with this post (Elmo #96).

One asks questions, lists suspicions, and shows reasoning behind a position, the other is a, broad, useless statement and an unexplained vote.

Compare this post (Jahudo #152), with this post (Elmo #153).

One explains positions on multiple people, includes an explained vote with specific links to certain posts, and addresses all current issues in the game, the other is a one sentence comical accusation that Jahudo is NabNab's buddy (which, so far as I can tell, you never address again).

Sub-standard is debatable, but compared to you? You're kidding yourself. You can post as many of your little post tally charts as you want, I'm not going to be fooled into thinking you've contributed more than any other person in this game, because, well, you haven't.

Unvote; vote: Elmo

---

Your critique of the list contains a better, valid point and analysis. If it isn't clear where he arrived at his opinions, it would be useful for him to tell how he did so.
Something does stand out for me though. I don't recall such a a direct inquiry into where Patrick and Goat got their opinions for their lists. Can those who are pursuing McGriddle with that line of thinking explain why McGriddle is unique in that respect? Why didn't you depose Patrick and/or Goat on some of the unexplained opinions in their lists?

From what I recall, Pat was pretty descriptive about his suspicions. I remember specifically answering questions of his. I'd contend that I am going after Goat for his unexplained opinions. His conditional reads are anti-town. He's already admitted to them being useless (at worst), but I think they're actually hurtful in the sense that they are a sort of shield for him to sling mud everywhere. When he says X is town and Y is scum based on a flip that hasn't happened, it's like every opinion he's giving can be washed away without recourse. I think it's unhelpful, and, if we had the time, I'd have liked to get into it a bit more (and I still probably will later on in this post).

---

pops. pops is the reasonable alternative.

You need to give more than this before the day ends. Seriously, I'll come up to bat for you against a player like Elmo, but you need to give the town more than this.

---

Everyone else was about where I expected. For me, I think it's probably a good indicator of how high a person's sig:noise ratio might be.

That's all well and good, but then why not make use of it? Why won't Elmo? If it was a townie thing to do, explain what uses Elmo has made of it. Explain how NabNab's post count hurt him (since it didn't cause Elmo to move his vote, and it didn't change your position that NabNab was a good wagon).

---

Btw, did goat do this whole scumpair projection thing when he was scum against you? So far from what I've read his play here is more consistent with his town play, though I'm a little spooked that I'm following his self-meta there, lol.

It's been a while since I last played with him, but I can take or leave arguments that are too steeped in meta to begin with. I only ever brought it up because his position that I have nothing on him, he's squeaky clean, and I should conform to the "popular" sentiment that he is town is virtually the same line he fed me in that game.

---

Me looking into the future and saying that I think X makes sense as scum with Y doesn't mean that I'm so sold to that idea and can never change my mind, just like you voting someone right now doesn't mean you're necessarily going to want to lynch them 5 pages from now. However, I like to make what I call "dynamic" reads, where I read players both on their own merits and how they fit into the game based on the big picture.

I mean, this is all just shallow, empty rhetoric to me. Why not just talk about the present? Why not talk about what's going on now? You're making all these predictions about Jahudo, Elmo, SC, pops, me, Pat... everyone, based on guesswork. Guesswork on D1, no less. Like, here, here's an example,

Elmo is town because he was the first to jump on Nabscum when Nab decided to push McGriddle. That's really unlikely to be busing.

Now you explain this later on in post 307, but, I mean, what? You won't vote Elmo because Elmo is probably town based on the fact that she wouldn't bus NabNab earlier if NabNab is scum. That's your position, broken down. It sounds ridiculous, and you're being far too elaborate and complex. Period. Maybe this playstyle is successful for you, great, but what good is that for me? It would be successful for you as scum too if I was willing to buy it at face value, wouldn't it? I intend to force more players to confront this tomorrow, because, get this, my read on you isn't dependant on anyone flipping anyway. It's this crazy tactic I live by, that players should be judged on their own contributions, votes, and positions, and not on the unproven reads I have of others.

---

It was no different in function than quoting the post and explaining why it was scummy. It's just a more sarcastic method. How about you discuss whether or not my arguments are valid, rather than suggest I'm "meanie scum who uses sarcasm".

It is when you have players thinking that Jahudo said it. I mean, why not just post below the quote, pops? Conform to the norm.

Moreover, I didn't like it. The whole attack against Jahudo seems like you're trying to jump onto an ongoing sentiment to buy yourself credit rather than something you've been sincerely dwelling on. Like I said, I don't get where you are coming up with this idea that Jahudo was making a play for NabNab. It seems very artifical and concocted.

---

As far as the claim goes, I'd like to see if there's any breadcrumbing, but I must admit that I tend to agree with pops/Goat when they say the claim seemed awkward.

[RedCoyote]

There's quite a distance between asking someone to do something and forcing them to. I mean, in the context of mafia, the most obvious example would be a bunch of people saying "do this or we'll lynch you". Incognito saying "hey, do you draw anything from that?" is rather different.

That's just a miscommunication then. I thought it was clear within the context of what I was saying, but maybe it wasn't. By forced I mean you didn't willingly submit your analysis. Others had to get it out of you, rather than you wanting to give it.

You know, it's a really good thing that you only consider people's individual contributions rather than any associative behaviour, otherwise you might be forced to consider that if I'm scum, Nab probably isn't.

I consider associative behavior all the time. It's a great tool for finding scum.

I do it after D1, when it actually means something and isn't entirely speculative.

[RedCoyote]

I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.

With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly. I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.

---

I'm actually a lot less incensed by linking alignments between players - I do this quite a bit. What I object to is doing it on day 1 (no flips, information extremely limited) and letting it colour your entire view of the town. I felt that you had pretty solid reads on over half the town purely based on Nabscum. I wanted to get you back to the here and now. (and stop reads like the one mentioned above, elmo town because he voted an unflipped nab)

This is the point I'm trying to make, but with me, it's like, I'm not allowed to say that because I'm just harboring resentment against Goat. That's how he's able to discredit me.

I don't get Red, I'm finding him really confusing. I have the odd gut feeling where I don't like part of his posts, despite liking a lot of what he puts forward.

Ecto says I'm doing a better job presenting the case against Elmo, but I think Ecto is more succinct. If you don't place much stock in IIoA, then I guess it may not mean much to you. Here's what I know about Elmo, he thinks Jahudo and NabNab are scum and Goat, pops, and Pat are town. I don't really have a clue how he reached any of these conclusions, because he chooses not to elaborate. Now it's great that I know these things, because it shows that Elmo is willing to give a position, but what happens when they change (and they will change) over the course of the game? If NabNab flips town? If pops flips scum? It's frustrating that Elmo only gets away with it because everyone else here is contributing. If everyone posted like Elmo, then the game would be completely stalled. So when something happens that Elmo didn't predict, Elmo will vote Incog and then say that Jahudo is town (as an example). We won't know why. I'm not satisfied with that, and I make no apologies for voting Elmo because of it. I know it isn't popular, because apparently it's good enough for the majority of the players in the game, but until I think that Elmo isn't trying to delibrately hide his thought process in order to sneak through unnoticed, then I'll be on his case.

I'm waiting for him to click into gear though, I suspect when he does that his alignment will be obvious to everyone, not just a gut read by me.

This doesn't really jive well with me. Something about this statement is too presumptive. We'll see though.

---

"it" here refers to my post. But then you start going on about me riding an "ongoing sentiment". Considering I was the very first person to make that post replying to Jahudo's, I think it's rather impossible that the ideas in that post weren't my own.

Not just the reply, I mean the ongoing sentiment that has been counter-Jahudo for this entire game. I think there are a lot of "majority" positions in this game, and it's not very evenly divided. Players like you, Ecto, and possibly Incog are probably fairly split on, but I think there is an alarming amount of consenus in this game. Virtually everyone thinks NabNab and Jahudo are scumbuddies and that Elmo, Goat, McGriddle are townies. I'm confident this will start to change as we progress, but I haven't been very happy with the near unanimity that NabNab had against him. This may very well come back to bite us later in the game.

---

If I have a failing when explaining myself, it seems to be when I find something to be "self-evident".

I get the same feeling a lot. I thought you did better, personally, because it seemed more pointed and easy to read. I think I have a tendency to get too verbose. I hate it because the more passion I have for the game or my positions usually means I type more. I've got to learn to fight that better.

---

(Well, was. Post-claim, I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to hammering NabNab. Right away.)

I agree with this and the rest of the post.

---

I just did a bit of meta-ing of the mod after NabNab claimed, and it looks like Hoopla HAS used the Rolecop role in the only other game she modded (Mini 820 - The Seaside for those keeping score at home). According to that game, she had a Rolecop as both a town-aligned role AND a scum-aligned role, so I could really see NabNab's claim coming from either alignment. I'm still cool with his lynch.

I'm glad you pointed this out, and it makes me feel a little more comfortable with the ends, if not the means.

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree.

That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.

---

But if you're going to continually whine about how "popular" I am and how you don't agree with my playstyle, then I'm just going to ignore it. You don't seem to really think I'm that scummy, just dislike how I've played and my status among the town (which you are greatly overstating), which is pretty freaking stupid. Get. Over. It.

Just a few days ago you were using your popularity as justification for me to get in line, now it's a liability and you're using your frustration to shield you from reality. The reality is your reads have closed you off to the point where those who disagree with you need to be put in place and those who agree with you are a-okay. NabNab is the right lynch because it's popular, and it's popular because it's the right lynch.

It's not even that NabNab is a bad lynch (especially after the claim), it's that there has been no deviation from NabNab, and the NabNab wagon is completely comfortable with this. What's more, they're actively discouraging it, as is the case with our friends Goat and Elmo (in different ways). Goat is discouraging it by lining up future scum/town reads based on NabNab's alignment, and Elmo is doing so by simply not participating in the game.

Goat says that he can just simply drop all his reads if something doesn't go as planned, but that's not really the point. The point is D1's are very much a sketchy proposition for the town, and it's usually no more than dumb luck if they score a direct hit on a scum member. NabNab is no different, you know, there is not this huge case against NabNab. And yet, it's like, we've got these players who are so sure, so confident, that it's already a fixture in their minds. This mentality could really hurt us later in the game, I think.

---

EBWOP: you didn't even look at it because there ARE no green names in it. Only heat signatures or red yellow orange and blue.

I think pops was being tongue-in-cheek with that remark.

This post has been edited to delete accidental duplication - Hoopla

[RedCoyote]

Crap, I got some freaking error during that post. It was pasted in there twice.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry for all the walls. I suspect I will slow down when the next day starts. If Pat or someone else hasn't hammered by the next time I log on, then I'll do it myself. I don't like the way NabNab claimed, and I don't think there's the strength (or initiative, sadly) to get someone else as an alternative.

---

So NabNab flips Mafia Roleblocker and you'll still be pushing my lynch exactly as hard as you did today, based on my content? That's the logical consequence of judging people based purely on their own contributions, but we're kinda verging on the absurd here.

What did I say? I'm not ready to give you credit either way. What, you think you had some role in pushing this wagon? You made a couple of remarks to NabNab and you voted. Okay. Maybe you consider yourself to be the leader of this wagon just because of your position. I don't.

So you 110% seriously believe my primary objective with respect to how I'm playing is to avoid attention?

You're doing a good job of it. No one seems to mind that you haven't posted any content other than me and Ecto.

Why not?

Because he isn't you.

---

I've never used my "popularity" as a justification for you to get in line. I was simply trying to show you your biased view of my play because not a single other person in the game held the same viewpoint you did about something that directly pertained to you. The point I was making is that you were overreacting to how I handled you because it directly related to you personally (emotionally invested) while the rest of the game from an outside perspective didn't see it the same way.

I get it, Goat. You've said the same thing multiple times.

I don't agree with you, and I further contend that you're trying to marginalize me in an attempt to keep this majority of yours intact. The mindset you're coming from is what speaks to me. Nobody agrees with my interpretation of you because I am biased against you. I'm biased against you because nobody agrees with my interpretation of you. Elmo is your strongest townread because NabNab is scum. NabNab is scum because Elmo is your biggest townread. There's a strong chance Jahudo is scum, so NabNab is scum. NabNab is scum, so there's a strong chance Jahudo is scum.

It's circles and circles and more circles. It's not about me lecturing you. I don't think nearly high enough of my abilities to lecture anyone, let alone you (some would say it's probably best to vote completely opposite of me XD). It's about getting others to see your potential charade.

---

Doos I reeeeeally gotta read that?

No, pops, please don't. It was unintentionally duplicated. I'd ask the

Mod

if she could delete half of it. What I did was copy and paste it from a notepad file twice on accident because I got some strange DB error when I was trying to submit it.

[RedCoyote]

I think it obvious that Patrick's instincts can be off, but I also don't see how Elmo can take his speculation of a scum pair with Jahudo/Nab, have Nab turn up town, and then because Patrick was wrong about Nab, Jahudo is now scum, I'm guessing now it was regardless of alignment? So though not assured by his opinion, I don't see how Elmo can jump to the opposite reasoning simply because Patrick was wrong on one opinion.

Maybe Elmo is purposefully trying to string you (or me, or Jahudo, or anyone who has shown any frustration with Elmo) along. Maybe he's testing for reactions. I don't like Jahudo up and jumping like that, but I also don't like Elmo anymore than I did yesterday after NabNab's flip, so it's kind of a wash for me.

---

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Keep me in the loop about this, because right now he's arguably my biggest town read.

Anyways, I don't have much of an issue with the pops wagon right now, but I need to do something that I should've done a long time ago.

Vote: Goatrevolt

Ahhhhh, the relief. It's like taking that swig of pepto when you've got stomach cramps; Goat is my stomach cramp. XD

I like the pops wagon, and I'd say I have a scumread on him at this point. I don't like your getting on it, because it's the same nonsense arguments you're using to respond to me. Look, I don't expect you to up and do a 180 with your entire take on the game. Here's the kicker, you're the one who made a big deal over the fact that, "if NabNab flips town, ignore my previous reads". Yet here you are, Ecto is suspect, pops is suspect, Elmo's vote isn't suspect. The only thing missing from that was a swipe at Jahudo, but you're too clever to make it that obvious.

And I knew this would happen, you know. I knew you'd end up just ignoring NabNab's town flip and going down the same path you were going down. I'm not saying all of your reads are wrong, that's besides the point (As a matter of fact, pops/Goat sounds like a pretty good team to me). I'm saying your rationale for getting there fraudulent. I'm ready for you to deny this too, because I think I've got the ammo to back it up.

Do you think you can handle that, big guy? Are you still going to threaten me with a policy lynch if I don't tow the line?

[RedCoyote]

Goatrevolt's [weak sauce] reasons are independent of Nabakanov's alignment tbh.

Wouldn't be surprised if Serial or Pops or both are scum with Nab.

Nabakov tried to discredit part of my push against pops while also pushing pops himself for differing reasons, which is why I initially found him suspicious. As soon as the pops thing died out, Nabakov basically just kind of stopped putting any pressure on pops anymore.

Pops is also scum. I've already elaborated on the Pops/Nabakov interaction earlier in the day, and basically he's been pinging my gut over and over with things he's said.

This is a first for me. pops coming to bat for the player that just voted him, clarifying why it is Goat finds him scummy.

Don't let these little details get in the way of the show you and Goat have been putting on for us though.

How on God's green earth can your honest read of the game be a goatrevolt/pops scumteam? Goatrevolt spawned, picked up a battlerifle, and started shooting me in the head since the moment this game started. That's not how bussing works.

How does bussing work, pops?

[RedCoyote]

I think Goat came into today all prepared for me.

I love it.

I'll be back later.

[RedCoyote]

Hey RedCoyote, why are you using the interaction between me and pops to suggest that we're scum? I thought you didn't use interactions. BUSTED!

I consider associative behavior all the time. It's a great tool for finding scum.

I do it after D1, when it actually means something and isn't entirely speculative.

There's a huge ass difference between busing and going out of your way to make your scum buddy a suspect when he wasn't one and continuing to put pressure on him when it isn't necessary. What is the likelihood a scum buddy comes into the thread and jumps on Pops for his random vote and continues to pressure him for the first 4-5 pages?

Even though this question is rhetorical, it's so steeped in WIFOM that it's useless to anyone. I'm not about to sit here and have a WIFOM debate (because I've learned, through experience, that it isn't a good scumtell), but I think we can at least agree that you can't use WIFOM to make a townie argument, right?

I actually think it would be a good strategy for scum to go at each other's throats right out the starting gate. Given that early wagons never amount to anything outside of that occasional Newbie Game, the scum would be comfortable in the fact that they're getting some early distancing in with no fear of repercussion.

Why didn't you vote me yesterday? Interactions mean nothing to you, so it's not like you were waiting on Nabakov to evaluate me. After he flipped town you wasted no time jumping on me, whereas yesterday you beat around the bush all day and never got on board.

For one, I saw a better candidate in Elmo. Secondly, NabNab's flip has less to do with this vote then you're assuming here (although I will admit if we had a scum flip I would've naturally had to rethink my suspicion of you). Thirdly, I made it very clear yesterday that I thought I had no chance in a Goat wagon yesterday, given the majority of players who saw you as town. Yesterday you damned me for coming after you against what was "popular", and today you're criticizing me for not coming after you hard enough then?

I haven't given my reasons for being on the pops wagon yet.

That's not true. You said you voted him because of his interpretation in post 385. Are you trying to back away from this?

Here's the kicker, you're the one who made a big deal over the fact that, "if NabNab flips town, ignore my previous reads".

Go back and find the quote where I say I will ignore my previous reads.

2. There's no problem in looking for a buddy for Nab. It's not relevant today, but I might not be around tomorrow, so I wanted to get out my notes on Nabakov interactions today.

If he's town, then you can just ignore it all.

(emphasis added)

I never said Elmo's vote on Jahudo wasn't suspect, I just didn't jump on it either. Lack of attack is not the same as defense, and you know that.

Point taken. It still is or isn't suspect though, and you not bringing it up implies that you're comfortable enough not to ask about it.

It's not even worth arguing with you because I know it's not going to get anywhere. You will misrepresent every single thing I say, as you have done in every game I've played with you.

Cry me a river, Goat. If this is the attitude you're going to take, then I'll just hit you up for pathos too. I mean, news flash, I think you're scum, big guy. I'm going to engage you. I'm sorry if you don't think it's worth it, but I don't think you've done a good enough job convincing me you are town. I think you've saddled us with circular arguments, appeals to popularity, and fradulent, concocted rationale behind your reads in the game.

You knew Nabakov would be town? I thought you found his claim suspicious. I guess not.... I answered the rest of this above. My reads that were based on Nabakov are now voided, but any other reads I have picked up on the game are still legitimate.

Now who's misrepresenting? I said I knew it would happen that you would ignore NabNab's flip. I didn't know what alignment NabNab was.

Do you deny, as pops does, that your scumpops read wasn't based in large part on his ties with NabNab?

What do you find fraudulent about my rationale this game?

Exactly what I've shown. You made a big show of connecting pops to NabNab yesterday, the team was either NabNab, Jahudo, and pops/SC, right? Jahudo is still scum today, pops is still scum today, and SC is still suspicious today, even though the primary reason, that you gave multiple times, was that pops/Jahudo looked like scum when paired with NabNab. With NabNab's flip, surely you we can all "ignore your reads", as you instructed us to do, only to find that you're still content with calling pops and Jahudo out, you don't have an issue with Elmo, and Ecto, who you suspected yesterday, is still suspect today.

---

You can call this post a waste of space, but it's no more a waste of space than the quoted material tbh.

That's not fair! You like fluff, so Elmo gets points that we don't get.

---

And besides pops, I can point to at least 10 of your posts that are 100% fluff and do nothing to further the game. At least my active lurking post gave player reads (albeit weak gut and unchanged reads). Yours boosted your post count to make it seem like you were on top of everything in the game, which I've already proven was false when you didn't give a read on the biggest wagon of the game.

This is why I think Elmo's rainbow was unnecessary at best and misleading at worse. It stands to reason that Incog and pops are using it in a general sense to throw suspicion toward you without really getting into the details as to why the post counts are skewed.

---

First, I definitely can't see the appeal of a popsofctown/Goatrevolt scum team - Goatrevolt has pretty clearly been at pops' neck for the majority of the game even at times that other targets have presented themselves. And like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I always got the feeling that Goat was actually

trying

to figure out pops' alignment in each of his posts rather than just railroading him or just pushing a case against him blindly. Do you feel differently about that?

I got that feeling as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be correct. As SC will bring up later (although he discredits it), the ferocity with which both pops and Goat leveled toward the suggestion that they would be scum together is sort of an actions speak louder than words moment for me. What's more, as the day wore on, and you can see this progression in Goat's posts, he increasingly relied on the idea that NabNab was scum to carry his pops read, as opposed to explain how it is he moved from a neutral/scummy read on him to a scum read on him today. I contend that this is directly because of his NabNab read, and I'm voting him today because I think his spin in regards to NabNab was a ruse to get his agenda through without suspicion. NabNab was the popular choice (thanks only partially to NabNab's play, but, I would argue, in a significantly larger part to players like McGriddle, Elmo, Goat, and SC pressing the wagon on with an assumed justification and confirmative bias in doing so).

Because of the above, I just don't get how you could claim to support the pops wagon but attack Goat for going down the same path he started Yesterday - I'd think that since Goat's suspicions are now going in line with your own, you might be getting a better feeling about him especially since he was one of the first one to voice all this concern about pops' alignment in the first place. Why is that not the case?

Because Goat's pops read is merely an extension of yesterday's play. I showed the town the evidence of Goat's read on pops, and how he made it inseparable from his NabNab read.

I liked Iam's case on pops, and I still find Jahudo suspect as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the two are just distancing from each other. I'm not sure how to read their interactions with Nabakov. Both have called him scummy at various points but neither have bothered to get on the wagon at any point. My read on it right now is unwillingness to lynch the scum buddy with the powerful role.

I'll grant Goat that he's had a lot to say about pops, but I think the integrity of his case against pops is compromised by his willingness to make it part of a collective read, as is the case in the above quote.

Despite all Goat's attempts to connect pops and NabNab, should we look past that in favor of Goat's supposed sincerity? At the moment I don't think so, do you?

---

I'm both put off by the speed of the pops wagon, some of the later votes on said wagon, and I also agree with pops point that Red has avoided taking a stance again on the popular wagons of Jahudo/Pops just like he skirted around Nabakov yesterday.

Do you really contend that I have not taken a stance on the pops wagon today? Especially when you just got through attacking me

for

my stance on pops? This is completely bogus.

Additionally, this is the first I've heard of me skirting around NabNab. I was pretty clear that I didn't like the wagon, and I can back this up. You can throw these accusations around with the best of them, let's just see you try to back them up.

---

He addressed problems he has with you, some of which I agree with, but didn't go the extra step of working out whether those problems are likely to be of scum's manufacture.

I think they are. I'm very cognizant of this heavy-handed Goat as I have been smacked down by it before. He doesn't intimidate me in the slightest, his stream of increasing threats, "maybe I should policy lynch you!!!!", "okay, I wasn't serious about the policy lynch jeez lighten up ", and "I'm rethinking RC as town!", his penchant for circular logic, his reliance on appealing to popularity to attempt to squelch dissent, and his need to connect his reads directly to a flimsy, unexplained NabNab vote are all scumtells to me.

---

While I'm not likely to get lynched and I'm a hard player to lynch, I still tend attract scum on my wagon more frequently than town based on unconventional play, aggressive play, or by holding unpopular stances. Scum love to jump on that kind of stuff, and I'm bothered by RedCoyote's continued insistence that my playstyle is wrong, that wrong is scummy, and his unwillingness to assess my play with an unbiased look.

I think this just exemplifies what SC just observed about you, that you become irate at the idea of someone questioning your authority. Basically what you said here is "scum question me; town don't".

[RedCoyote]

Alright, maybe I was a little too quick to jump down Goat's throat for that pops vote, and I'll agree with him when he says that it's hard to imagine that sort of effort being put into all this just to convince me.

Unvote

Mod

, I'm also going to be V/LA at least until Friday, possibly Saturday, while I dedicate a little more energy toward school. My semester is wrapping up, and I have a number of assignments for this week and next. I should have most of the important stuff done by the end of the week though.

[RedCoyote]

I think the vote count says it all,

popsofctown - 5

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

iamausername - 2

(Incognito, Elmo)

Ectomancer - 1

(popsofctown)

Not Voting - 2

(Goatrevolt, RedCoyote)

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it. pops is amusingly all over the place in his suspicions, grasping desperately at anything that will get him out of this situation he's found himself in, Incog I think is sincerely trying to make the case against Jahudo, but he thinks he's found more meat against iamausername, Goat's not voting him, McGriddle is coasting through the game (sorry about your hospitalization, but all the more reason you need to replace out, imo), so he hasn't even mentioned Jahudo today as far as I know... etc.

I think Elmo mentioned once a long time ago that Jahudo isn't posting a lot, which is par for the course for Jahudo regardless of alignment as far as I know, and that's been strung along for the entirety of the game. I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has. Jahudo has given offense and defense, and I just don't see what he's done that has made him special in anyway. If it's his ties to NabNab, then why not me or Ecto? If it's his vote on pops, then why not McGriddle or SC?

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo.

I don't agree with this. I think if Jahudo really was a so-called "easy wagon", then I wouldn't have to struggle so hard to figure out why it is his name is constantly being thrown around.

If you were to make a list of low content posters in this game, you're going to put probably me and McGriddle at the bottom, maybe Elmo too, and then Jahudo on a level just above that. And yet Jahudo is the one taking the brunt of the lurker-hunting attacks. I'm not saying that "he's lurking" is the sum total of the case on him, but it's certainly a pretty major component of it. You'd think, if Jahudo was scum, that someone would be attempting to deflect some of that suspicion onto other low-content posters, and that just isn't happening here.

But yeah, take Jahudo out, and that looks like a pretty good list. My gut says Incog is scum. My head says the NabNab lynch didn't happen without any scum involvement at all, and McGriddle was definitely the shadiest hop onto that wagon. And both my head and my gut say pops is scum.

I agree with this, except that I'm still not prepared to say Incog is the fiendish presence on that lynch.

So, to answer Incog's question, no, I can't vote iamausername, and I certainly can't vote Jahudo. Not based on what I've witnessed thus far. I want to give Incog credit for not letting pops go through without question, but I think he's looking in the wrong direction. Elmo doesn't get this same credit, certainly not for his, "What a coincidence SC, Jahudo, and iamausername are all my scum picks!" The sincere NabNab voters were iamausername and Incog I think. Everyone else supporting that wagon, including pops, is fair game.

[

Scum

]-----pops--Elmo-McGriddle----SC--Goat-[

∙

]---iamausername-Jahudo--Incog--Ecto------[

Town

]

I think it's time for pops to claim.

[RedCoyote]

Are you saying you're ready to hammer me Red?

Yes.

---

That last post by Red makes me doubt my town read on him.

I've heard that one before.

This coming from Red is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen. Red harassed me incessantly day 1 for what he believed was me saying that since nobody else agreed with him about me that he should drop the case. And now he's saying that since nobody is strongly pushing Jahudo that it's hard to argue he's scum? Are you kidding me with that?

I voted you when I thought you were most likely to be scum (post-D1 flip). I didn't vote you when I thought someone else was most likely to be scum (pre-D1 flip). What's the joke?

---

I didn't find more meat in iamausername like you say; I said I currently find them equally suspicious.

You found him suspicious enough to take your vote off of Jahudo, so I'd say that's pretty significant. And you can feed me that "Major FoS" line all you want, at the end of the day, you only have one vote. If the suspects in question are both "equally" suspicious, as you say, then the one with the vote is being given more attention by default.

I really don't get why a situation where "no one standing behind [a wagon]" is a reason to believe that someone likely isn't scum. That just completely boggles my mind. Have you never heard of under-the-radar scum before?

First of all, this logic sure was valid when Goat was pushing it. No one seemed to mind him calling me out for suspecting him when no one was voting him. Second, I don't think Jahudo is town simply because he isn't being voted. That's simplistic, erroneous, and almost insulting. This is the 21st page. I didn't just drop into this game, scratch my chin, and say I'm officially deciding that Jahudo is now town. I find five players more worthy of wagons than Jahudo. I've been developing my reads throughout the game, and they're still constantly in flux. Third, my point is that if you aren't willing to stand behind your Jahudo case, then how can you expect others to do the same? This goes for Elmo as well. Y'all both abandoned it in favor of iamausername. I get that you think iamausername is just as scummy. That's fine. You still only have one vote. The fact that you were willing to move it is what leaves an impression in my mind.

What does what you've quoted of mine have to do with what you're saying here? I never said Jahudo was an "easy wagon" -- iamausername did.

You implied that it was an easy wagon when you claimed that there is some multi-faceted case to be made against Jahudo. If there is such a thing, then I'm struggling to see it.

I'll admit I'm going backwards a bit, and this might be what is startling you. I'm coming back from inactivity, so I'm going to address issues that are a day or two old.

---

I see "hard to argue Jahudo as scum", not "Jahudo is town". And I don't think that is splitting hairs at all considering people can certainly have 3 identifiable states in a mind. (scum, neutral, town)
Also, I don't think I need to create a quote pyramid to say that he spent at least a couple more paragraphs talking about various slants of attack on Jahudo and if I recall, he didn't spend that many words just saying that a lack of votes provided his reasoning.

This. I like how I devoted most of that post to asking why it is that Jahudo is more deserved of an attack than other, more inactive players (Elmo, McGriddle, iamausername), and I get nothing, just like iamausername did. If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.

[RedCoyote]

You are so full of it.

Alright, Goat, my entire Jahudo read is based on a vote count. If that's what you or Incog want to think, then okay. I have no point whatsoever. Anything that you don't agree with is ridiculous. I'm wrong again; it's easy to argue Jahudo as scum when there are no votes on him. Of course you couldn't be bothered to check if maybe, possibly, if I had mentioned pops or Jahudo before once or twice during the course of the game. Heavens no. Of course you couldn't be bothered to ask about my reads. They're just ridiculous. Of course pops' vote hopping is in no way a scumtell. That's just ridiculous.

[RedCoyote]

It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

I THINK HE'S TOWN HENCE I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH HIM, yeah?

Well why didn't you say so? All of this changes everything; how convincing!

My retort... let me mull it over... okay... Well...

I think pops is scum...
therefore...
I want to...
to...
lynch him?

Yeah, lynch him!

What a great debate we're having.

---

First, I was using the term "under-the-radar scum" in a generic sense to help support the point that I was making towards you - I wasn't saying that I believe that's what we have here since I definitely feel like pretty much everyone in this game has undergone at least some kind of scrutiny, so that means that absolutely nobody in this game has been under-the-radar in my eyes. Even if that wasn't the case though, I haven't ignored a single person in this game - you can look through all of my posts and notice that I've p much touched on anyone and everyone that I possibly could. Heck, if the mod was a player in this game too, I'd probably call her out about some of the scummier-looking of her vote counts too.

Come on, Incog. I'm not too old, but I wasn't born yesterday. The opening to the post that you link to (post #418) starts with a complaint on how Jahudo's post are too "background-ish", and that was the word you used. Now you want to back away from that? I mean, I don't get it. If you don't think he's playing under-the-radar, what did you mean when you said his posts were too background-ish? I really don't get where you're coming from here, so please help me understand.

If I were to focus on stuff that I haven't liked from Today though, I'd say that I have trouble with your "solid town" read on iamausername - I seriously can't see how

anyone

can be reading him in that way at this point in the game.

I agree with this, although I have more of an issue with the way SC phrased it, as you bring up later in this post. This isn't enough to me though, because despite iamausername's post count, I think he's posts have been generally good.

---

Where are SerialClergyman and Iamusername? Riding out the day?

I would like to hear more from them, and hopefully McGriddle too.

Anyways, I dedicate this to my buddy GoatRevolt:

The Scoop on pops

• Overreaction/Buddying with Goat
  
  
• Jahudo, I think, was spot-on to call pops a NabNab fence sitter.
  
  
• "IIoA is a great tell... but not for Elmo it isn't "
  
  
• ...but, as iamausername would bring up, pops has no problem holding McGriddle to task for IIoA.
  • (Now it seems like McGriddle is on pops' wagon, yet Elmo isn't? What a coincidence. Cue Elmo to say, "I've got a gut town read on pops and that's that!" Yeah, I'll bet he does.)
• Artifical case against Jahudo is formed on the basis that Jahudo is positioning himself to hammer NabNab (where he got this from, I still have no clue... this is just thrown in for padding), and that Jahudo is ignoring the "votes" on him... when, surprise surprise, pops was only the second vote on Jahudo's wagon. Jahudo probably hadn't have even logged in to see Incog had voted him, and already pops is calling him out for ignoring it.
  
  
• Lastly, he doesn't believe in his latest Jahudo vote. I don't know if we can blame him for being opportunistic and following orders, but I think pops is stretching himself too thin on Jahudo. He wants to appear as though he's giving Jahudo an honest shake, but his hands are tied. I don't think pops really sees scum in Jahudo, and I don't think he ever did. If he ever did, it was something that pinged his gut once, and he's been sort of limply going along with it to appease Elmo, Goat, and Incog ever since.

[RedCoyote]

Someone keeps bringing up whether or not someone is using Elmo's account to make posts. I just want to completely distance myself from any argument like that. I have no idea where it's coming from or what meaning is behind it. Elmo asked me at one point a while back why I used a female pronoun for him, and I explained that it was because I confused him for another player. I have never played with Elmo or the other player before, so the point is moot.

So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?

Because you have. You said it yourself, "I don't want to lynch him... because I think he's town!

>cookiemonstertroll.png"

Now you want to step up and give some reasoning behind your stance?

So here's what pops actually said. But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?

Not particularly. I don't buy that you've been playing differently then him. McGriddle says he thinks pops is scum, you say that you think he's town. Neither of you have given any real reason for this, you just state it and walk away.

Now

you want to step up, when pops' life is in danger no less, and get involved in the game? No dice, Elmo.

If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

I don't buy this at all. In light of pops' claim, his post makes a little more sense, but even without it I don't get your rationale.

Now, if I was in a bad mood, I'd just call you a hypocrite for the sake of it, but I won't because I had my cheerios today and I've been in roughly your position before and think it's a perfectly reasonable stance. But the problem is that you haven't evidenced a strong opinion either way, as far as I can see, and therefore I think both your play and pop's play is comparable in that respect.

I made it clear that I didn't like the NabNab lynch up until the claim, at which point I no longer had grounds to protest it. It was different in pops' case. He specifically said, "Well I have a bad gut read but... I dunno... I guess the lynch is a-okay. "

Except Jahudo posted right above pops, in 276 to pops' 277? And Incog voted in 266? wtf?

Point taken, but the whole idea is weak to begin with. Jahudo should sound the alarms over L-6? Get real, Elmo.

Self-preservation is entirely rational regardless of his alignment. This is just obviously not scummy in itself, I mean if you want I can show you a game where a townie didn't vote the other viable wagon who turned out to be the SK and I wanted to rip their head off.

No, not in itself. It's scummy when you don't agree with the lynch.

And you can bitch and moan about having to actually defend your positions all you want, it doesn't make me feel sympathy, guilt, or whatever other emotion you are trying to appeal to.

---

On the one hand, pops defended Goat pretty hard earlier in the day. On the other, I don't see any breadcrumbs. Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I resolve PR claims in my mind. Do you have any of those, pops?

[RedCoyote]

It would make it much more a relief to take all these claims and go with them. The one player I'm trying desperately to understand is Ecto. I'm trying to understand scum motivations behind his claim, because it does seem a bit odd that he didn't give pops a high five the moment pops claimed. I do hate to be the one to splash cold water on the idea that we're having a confirmation party here, but I'm still taking Ecto's claim with a grain of salt.

pops' claim is easier to swallow, as he has a useful power.

Elmo would probably be my go to lynch, but I've been wanting a McGriddle lynch since early in D1. This is a prime opportunity to get rid of him, having possibly already used up our only Vig shot.

Vote: McGriddle

[RedCoyote]

I think we'd all have our personal preference on who to shoot. Personally I'd much rather have taken out a McGriddle with a vig shot, but like Goat or someone else mentioned, we've got some very real SK possibilities. Anyways, I'm 'nilla. I've got another post coming up, but I just wanted to get my claim out.

[RedCoyote]

Day 1 he spent most of his time arguing about me despite never voting me. Day 2, he jumps on me immediately and has an overdone "ah feels so good to finally vote Goat" statement that didn't feel sincere.

1) No possibility of you being lynched.
2) Didn't think you were most likely to be scum.
3) I engaged Elmo just as much as I engaged you.

Therefore, this is still inaccurate, just like it was when you brought it up earlier in the day. With D2's NabNab flip and your pops vote, you catapulted yourself into the number 1 slot; I didn't just arbitrarily decide you should be the vote.

Most of his pressure on me is based on misrepresentations, something that is more likely from scum than town. He seems unwilling to evaluate my alignment or consider my defenses in an attempt to discern whether or not I am town, but rather has "made up his mind" I'm scum already and precious little will sway him.

Then he unvotes me with no fanfare, which was odd.

I don't know what Goat calls my unvoting him if it isn't "evaluating" his defenses. Why else would I unvote him? To top it off, I'm scummy for listening to him and others. So, it's like, if I kept voting Goat... that means I'm unwilling to evaluate him. If I unvote him... that means I'm odd and not being genuine.

In other words this is all artificial filler to make his vote look better than it is. He's creating a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario to justify his vote no matter what I say.

The worst thing is his jump onto the Pops wagon. Read his post where he declares his intention to vote pops. There is 1 sentence about pops being scummy, and that sentence is simply about his votes moving around a lot. He doesn't bother to even suggest why that's scummy, just declares that it is.

It was obvious that pops had been climbing up my scumlist over the course of the game. If Goat can find an instance where I ever said that I was uncomfortable with lynching pops or that I didn't like his wagon, he's more than welcome to call me on it. He won't find it, because it doesn't exist. I even went back to indulge Goat by laying out a more traditional case structure for him, which he has yet to bring up. I didn't find it necessary, because my suspicion of pops wasn't anything new.

The biggest clue was when we started the day and I said that I liked the pops wagon.

Why would you not being able to logically vote two players mean you have to vote Pops?

Perhaps because I want a lynch before the end of the day?

His reasons to not vote for Jahudo were bad, especially the bit about nobody strongly pushing for him, because as you will recall, Mr. Coyote had no problems pushing for me when he was alone in that venture so obviously he doesn't believe that at all.

1) Why would I vote someone who I didn't think was scum?
2) Both Elmo and Incog, the biggest proponents of the scumJahudo argument, abandoned the wagon for iamausername, which in effect meant that the wagon was being pushed without anyone being on it.
3) I had no issue pushing to lynch Goat because

I was on the wagon

, which wasn't the case with Jahudo.

Therefore, this is still inaccurate, just like it was when you brought it up earlier in the day.

---

Can I perhaps get a teensy bit of town credit for defending pops? No?

Hah. Okay, I'll do that just as soon as you give me credit for defending the Masonry.

---

RC it's popcorn.

Popcorn is so silly. Does the order really matter? I pick whoever is next to make a post between Elmo, Incog, and McGriddle.

[RedCoyote]

You made it quite clear that Nabakov being scum wouldn't influence your Elmo read because of his limited content. Why did Nabakov being town influence your Goat read?

With D2's NabNab flip and

your pops vote

, you catapulted yourself into the number 1 slot

"With NabNab's vote and your subsequent pops vote" is probably more accurate, but because you voted pops at the beginning of the day (according to you pops is suspect because of his ties to NabNab), you earned my vote.

And my vote on someone you thought was probably scum is scummy? Do explain. How did Pops catapult into the number 2 slot? Why did Elmo drop from 1 to 3, especially with Nabakov being town?

Why would it matter what I thought about pops? Scum can't vote scum?

pops had always been near the top of the list for me, except for the very beginning of the game, along with McGriddle and Elmo. This has never shifted that much, you are the one who has been jumping around my scale.

Why did Elmo drop from 1 to 3, especially with Nabakov being town?

He didn't. He's effectively in the same spot as he has been, right next to McGriddle. Him and McGriddle are about even for me. pops put himself infront of Elmo/McGriddle, not the other way around.

Your unvote on me lacked any real reasons why you decided to do it except that you didn't think I would go through all that work. Did you really think that me making a few long posts is too much work for me as scum and drop me to about middle of the pack on your reads because of it?

No, not particularly. I think you did well to explain how your pops vote was removed from NabNab, which I previously didn't understand. Hence, you put a good amount of work into proving that, which I don't think scum would've (or could've).

Anyways, it's just another example of your circular logic. I'm not taking in your arguments, therefore I'm scum. When I do take in your arguments, I don't do them enough justice according to you, therefore I'm scum. I suppose if I voted you again you'd jump at the chance to call me out for that as well.

I said you were unwilling to evaluate me because you used the same recycled arguments against me over and over and over again and never bothered one time to respond to or try to refute my rebuttal to those poor arguments.

If you want to make this a war of walls, then so be it. I stepped aside because I didn't think it was getting us anywhere. I had thought that you agreed with this, but that's apparently not the case.

I mean seriously, you really are one to talk Goat. You keep coming at me with this idea that I'm ignoring what you have to say, when I think I've answered for this argument that, "I wasn't voting you on D1 despite arguing with you", about fifty times. How many times must I say Elmo was scummy to me for you to step back for a second and soak that in? You keep bringing it up like it's some sort of new point, like I've never addressed it.

Your circular arguments, popularity appeals, and fraudulent, artificial rationale behind your votes and reads... this all still applies, you know. I backed off because I was able to see, based on your responses and SC's revelations, that you had more to say about pops yesterday than I gave you credit for. That doesn't change the fact that your approach to the game and your approach to my criticism of you has been suspect at best. It's like, I bring up the fact that your NabNab vote is crap, which it was, your deliberate tying of your Jahudo and pops reads to that NabNab read was ineffective and shoddy, which they were, and you act as though I'm talking out of my ass. I'm not, you know, these are completely valid concerns. The way you write everything I say off as ridiculous or repetitive is a way of you skirting responsibility, but the icing on the cake, the absolutely red flag in my mind was when you went the extra step into logical fallacy territory with your nonsense about how I need to get in line because "nobody else feels the same way as I do". You won't even give an inch either, so it's not like I'm not being reasonable. You say I don't have anything legitimate at all, which is an out-and-out lie. Either you're really too blind to see that you've brought a lot of this on yourself, or you're stubbornly trying to keep me from pressuring you with an array of nonsense including, but not limited to, popular appeals, threats of voting, claims of paranoia, and claims of emotions clouding my judgment.

The point isn't whether or not you liked the pops wagon or showed proclivity to it in the past. The point is purely that when you made a move to get on the Pops wagon, your reasoning behind it was terrible.

How? How can that possibly be true? I already had explained my proclivity toward a scumpops and my support of the wagon. You never thought to call me on it then. All of a sudden, now that pops has a few more votes, and I

remind

everyone that I

still

had interest in voting pops, you act as though you're surprised. You even quote me saying that pops has moved into my scum territory during D1 later in this post!

I'll be the first one to admit that I hadn't made an "official" case up to Goat's standards, which is partially why I took the time to do so, but that doesn't mean I had no reasoning whatsoever. I can point to multiple instances of me calling out pops today and yesterday. Maybe rather than throw out these patently false accusations, you should try to do a little research on whether or not I had reasoning behind my willingness to vote pops (all this and I never even voted him for goodness sakes, I only expressed desire to).

Your post was a full week before deadline. Pops was at L-1 and he wasn't going anywhere. If your purpose was to get a lynch before the end of the day you had plenty of time to explore other alternatives.

Be specific. What other alternatives? It can't be you, can't be Jahudo, can't be iamausername.

I spent the entire D1 on Elmo getting nowhere. I spent most of D2 on you getting nowhere. People aren't receptive to my cases. That's fine, you know, I accept that; I'm a big boy. Everyone here has a pretty strong leader mentality, I think. I don't really have a problem with that, except when you try to use this against me here.

Anyways, so that's 5/9 possibilities down. I think Ecto and Incog and pretty town. That's 7/9. Who are we left with? McGriddle and pops.

I had no problem with a McGriddle lynch, but what the heck am I supposed to do with it? Complain about his lack of activity? Well, yeah, he's in a darn hospital. I've asked him to replace out, you know. What else am I supposed to do?

1. He didn't try to lynch Nabakov day 1 for reasons like this. Nab's lynch happened much closer to deadline than Red's post, and Red never made a move to get on Nabakov based on needing a lynch by deadline. He continued debating with me/Elmo all the way up to when Patrick hammered. So I really don't buy that he really wants this lynch by the end of the day so he needs to make bad justifications to get on the pops wagon that is sitting at L-1.

Wrong.

If Pat or someone else hasn't hammered by the next time I log on, then I'll do it myself. I don't like the way NabNab claimed, and I don't think there's the strength (or initiative, sadly) to get someone else as an alternative.

2. Pops is his number 1 scum suspect, based on his handy little ordered list. If pops is his number 1 scum suspect, then his reasons to vote pops surely should have absolutely nothing to do with A. needing a lynch by deadline (7 days out) or B. doesn't like either of the other two wagons so it's pops by default. Instead, it should entirely be "This is why pops is scum. Bam."

Wrong.

I never argued that we needed a lynch by the deadline. That's a strawman. It had nothing to do with the deadline. I said we needed a lynch before the end of the day in the sense that I want a lynch. I'm not going to vote Elmo and be redundant and watch the day end without a lynch, obviously. Additionally, there is something to be said for bankable deadlines, which I thought would be more useful than not. And also, are you implying I should've lynched pops before he claimed when you say "Bam"? Otherwise this is just an extension of your nonsense that I didn't have reasoning for suspecting pops.

Both A and B applied to pops as well. Both showed a complete lack of desire to actually look into Jahudo any deeper than whether or not he's attacked others or defended himself to others.

Maybe you've never played with Jahudo before, but I have. I happen to know he isn't very post heavy. pops, on the other hand, is extremely post heavy. So, in other words, a little relativity coming from you would be nice. Elmo, pops, and Incog's big arguments, so far as I could tell, were how Jahudo was defending NabNab and how he was acting backgroundish or lurky or whatever adjective you want to use. iamausername obviously had to stick up for Jahudo, but I agreed with him. I still don't really get where the Jahudo suspicions came from, nor do I really get where the NabNab suspicions came from if you want me to be perfectly honest. The whole reason I even brought up the fact that Jahudo had a competent offense and defense was because I was racking my brain trying to figure out what it was that made Jahudo scummy. I don't know how many times I've read his posts, but I just don't really get it. I'm sure there's some bias involved with us agreeing on a few different players, but I still don't see how a player like Jahudo could ever rise above a McGriddle, or, heck, even an Elmo or pops really. I see much more objective reasoning behind voting these players.

You pushed me as suspicious day 1 without being on the wagon. Surely you don't believe the load of crap that since they weren't on the Jahudo wagon they couldn't believe he was scum or that the case against him was any weaker as a result.

So much is being made out of this that it isn't even funny. The entire idea was that I thought it was kind of funny that Jahudo was still being thrown around as this obvious scum when his wagon had been abandoned by the biggest proponents and no one else was interested in voting him. I saw Jahudo in a good light in spite of his wagon. It didn't really matter whether there were people on his wagon or not. I mean, there were people voting iamausername and I didn't vote him... because I didn't see him as scum. The same deal goes for Jahudo.

I'm pretty sure those quotes from day 1 say it all. You were fine with McGriddle/Goat/Elmo/Pops lynches yet you weren't on all of those wagons at the same time. You certainly couldn't have taken issue with them wanting to lynch Jahudo despite not being on the wagon, since you yourself were game to lynch any of those above players despite only being on the Elmo wagon day 1. In other words, your arguments in favor of Jahudo being town were pure crap.

It doesn't really matter does it, Goat? None of this matters, because by the time you respond to this, you'll have forgotten anything I've said prior. If that's really what you want to think, you know, if you want to delude yourself to the point that my entire precept of mafia is whether people are on a wagon or not, then be my guest. I think people will see your asinine, erratic rantings just for what they are. Heaven knows that I never had anything to say about any other player or any other situation in this game. Jahudo is town simply because no one is voting him at some random time during the end of D2. I never so much as even knew Jahudo was in the game before page 22 or 18 or whatever page it was.

As to your desperate attempt to tie it to a D1 lynch: Because saying I'm content with lynching specific people on D1 is exactly the same as questioning why it is Incog, pops, and Elmo are pushing the Jahudo wagon from the sidelines. Right, there's no difference between these two things at all. I take some solace in the fact that at least SC has the cajones to call you on your irrational, overinflated diatribe, and I encourage anyone else to stand with me in shouting you down until you're willing to take a look at yourself for two seconds. As strange as it may seem, it's possible that you may have done something wrong for once in your life, Goat. You may have been wrong to write everything I have to say off as ridiculous. Maybe if you pulled away from the blinders for a moment you'd be able to sneak a peek at the same game I'm seeing.

McGriddle or Elmo should be our lynch today.

[RedCoyote]

You act as though I have this belief where I cannot possibly be wrong ever. If that were the case I wouldn't change my mind on who I think is scum as often as I do. I understand that I'm not always right. I was wrong about Nab, probably wrong about Jahudo, and regardless of your alignment I've been wrong about you at some point this game. You've spent the entire game trying to discredit everything I've said as being irrational or wrong, and you have held on to this same list of grievances I've made despite me having responded to them infinite times and you failing to respond to any of my defenses.

Look, I'm not expecting you to slit your wrists over being wrong. This happens to every mafia player who has ever played the game. You've said time and again that nothing I've had to say about you has any sort of weight to it, which just isn't the case.

But, it's like, I don't think you're looking at this game from my point of view. I really don't. Maybe you saw me as town at one point, great, but it's like you called me town out of one side of your mouth, and the other side you said you could switch that at a moment's notice. Not exactly a stirring show of confidence. So, what am I supposed to do? Ignore you? I tried that, and you just come back at me harder.

Regardless, I've spent just as much time with other players in this game as I have with you, and I'm expected to sit quietly and take the hyperbolic barbs like, "RC's spent the entire game trying to discredit me!" You just cannot honestly make a statement like that. You know I've attacked McGriddle, Elmo, pops, and SC. You know I've defended iamausername, Jahudo, NabNab, and Ecto. You're rationalizing now and trying desperately to convince yourself I'm scum, now more than ever.

I also dislike how RedCoyote has had SC at a relatively high point on his scum meter the entire game but has done no investigation or probing into SC.

He had never been higher than third most scummy, so I wouldn't put too much stock into that. I'll grant you that I haven't talked about SC as much as Jahudo, iamausername, Incog, you, McGriddle, pops... etc. I'm not exactly sure why that is. He's never been resoundingly townie or scummy to me, so (or maybe because?) he's never been the best choice for my attention either.

At this point, with most every claim out, he wouldn't be a bad lynch by default. I don't think I would prefer it though.

---

I obviously don't think that I'm the best lynch (and I think there are unbiased reasons for making this the case), I still have a gut town read on Elmo (and his defense of pops does count for something), so we're left with Red and McGriddle. Either are OK lynches, but I definitely prefer McGrid thanks to wagon position and activity.

Why did you eliminate Incog?

Also, why couldn't scum just as easily have defended pops, knowing he's town? If anything, I'd say it would be easier for them to earn some credit in this instance, especially a player like Elmo, who was guilty of completely riding NabNab for the entire first day.

---

I'm, uh, somewhat unhappy right now.

I can't imagine why. No one aside from me and Ecto has had more that two words of criticism to say to you.

And, if you can't tell, I'm extremely jealous of that ability of yours.

---

I'm buying McGriddle's claim right now. I think he should shoot either RedCoyote or SerialClergyman.

You don't mention Incog either, which is puzzling.

Do both you and SC know something about Incog that I don't?

---

Just about the only way that makes sense is if Ecto is an SK, which is possible.

Agreed, but our Mod may be crazy enough to put two Vigilantes in place.

Still, two Vigs, a weak Doctor, a Role Cop, and two Masons?

That's a spicy meatball.

---

Unvote; vote: Elmo

Elmo - 9 (Jahudo, Goat, SC, McGriddle, Ecto, Incog, iamausername, pops, RC)
RedCoyote - 1 (Elmo)

Make it happen, gentlemen. In your heart you know I'm town.

[RedCoyote]

Red - Incognito is spared some wrath because it seems Patrick wasn't a mafia kill - this eliminates a fair bit of the NK-analysis stuff against him.

I don't follow. I really don't. I know it's convenient for me to try and keep myself out of the running here, but I don't get this at all. To say Incog is a town read for you, okay sure, I feel the same way, but to completely throw him out of the running? Nah.

Red - what do you think about McGriddle's claim?

It's probably true. There's not much in the way of reading a lurker I don't think. McGriddle, although he had a good excuse, stayed completely inactive for almost the entire game.

Even if it isn't true, I think it's the most confirmable PR claim we have.

It's also difficult to confirm McGriddle. Say we wake up tomorrow and just I am dead. Is McGriddle a vig? Is pops a doc? Was his doc successful? Who knows?

I disagree. pops will be able to tell us who he protected overnight, assuming he's still alive. I'm assuming his protect will go through even if he's shot, although I could be wrong.

---

Or the countless words this game you've spent trying to suggest my playstyle, reads, or analysis is fraudulent, wrong, circular, should be ignored, etc.

And? What does that have to do with me being scum?

You don't seem to be very happy to cross me off your lists of suspects based on Pops' claim. I'm sorry.

You should be.

I don't know though. I know someone is lying. I get a feeling it's the most likely candidate (Ecto), but I don't think it's worth lynching him to find out. We have five townies, and, unless we have some evil Masons, two of them are fake. If we're willing to go with pops, we have a pretty good shot at hitting scum in this group, without losing as much power in the process.

Moreover, if Ecto is a third-party, then I want the scum to sweat that one out a little bit tonight.

---

This page, RC does not directly address it. Instead he continues bickering with Goatrevolt. He never had an epiphany about GR or anything when GR became conf-town, he just keeps on bickering. It wasn't a change for him I guess, he already knew GR was town.

Well, like I said, Goat was coming after me whether I defending myself or not. I wanted to show him the respect of giving him one last run for his money, but he didn't blink.

If RedCoyote was town, he would be voting McGriddle and casting doubt on the claim.

Why would I do that? I think McGriddle's probably telling the truth. Most of my scumread on him was on account of him not putting himself out there (although he had good reason to be inactive).

Now, if you think I should be voting Ecto, that might be a different story. I mulled it over, but I can't really advocate it for the reasons I gave earlier in this post. We might as well take a shot at the townies if the odds are just as good as they are between the Vigs (assuming one Vig is town and one isn't).

In Precision mafia he was flippant as well. He claimed his power role out of the blue with zero pressure.

He sure did... and he was town, too. XD

It was somewhat out of the blue, but he was being voted (albeit not the decided lynch).

[RedCoyote]

I'd rather not lynch McGriddle either.

List:

1) Elmo
2) SC
3) Ecto

I'll

unvote

and flip to a

vote: SerialClergyman

, because Incog is seemingly the only one willing to defer slightly from the idea that I'm proven scum here.

I've got nothing else for y'all. I think we may all be surprised at who is scum in the PR group once everything is said and done, but I think the best bet is still Ecto with the way I'm seeing it. If nothing else, I enjoyed playing this one with a tailor-made player list that stands up against any other game I've played in before. I got rough with Goat and Elmo, but I don't think they would've wanted it any other way. Good luck town, and I'll catch everyone after the game.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah it looks like iamausername made 2 posts on Sunday in the newbie he's modding. I can't tell you why he wasn't around from then into today.

This doesn't make sense to me, like, at all. I don't think that's his style. I don't know what to make of it. I don't get how this could be a valid Mason strategy or a scum strategy (for Jahudo to come out and say this, I mean).

---

I'm a bit skeptical of the lack of a vig kill last night by McGriddle, but the manner in which he claimed still strikes me as strongly pro-town. It's just a bit convenient to get roleblocked. And the way his role lines up with Ecto's suggests that they are both telling the truth or both lying. McGriddle couldn't have assumed Ectomancer was an odd-night vig based on his one-shot claim and claimed even night as a fake claim to match up to a town claim.

I still don't really get this either. By odd-night Vig we're meaning "one shot on an odd-night", right? I think someone asked whether or not he ever clarified odd-night or not. I don't remember if he ever answered why he just said one shot, and what the reasoning behind "one shot" was. Stave off Roleblockers perhaps?

But I agree with Goat in the sense that it's hard to believe two scum claiming Vigilantes. This would be interesting, and I'll tip my hat if that's how the town ends up getting played, but I'm basically discounting the possibility of McGriddle AND Ecto as a team. That being said, Goat is just too easily writing off Ecto at this point. Perhaps the Masons are scum, you know, I don't question that. Especially with Jahudo's weird revelation. But it's still very possible that we have Vig + 2 Townies here (from my point of view that would be Incog and Elmo).

---

So yeah, I'm thinking Incog/Red/Goat or maybe Incog/Red/Elmo.

The way I see it, I just have to clear Goat. I mean, I don't want to, that goes without saying. I think he's been really sketchy, but, above that even, it's hard for me to write any scenario with him as scum.

Someone asked me why it was I believed McGriddle's claim. Incog summed it up a little better than I could in a previous post. The only thing I really didn't care for about McGriddle was his unwillingness to analyze the game and put himself forward with activity. His claim seemed genuine because McGriddle doesn't strike me as the type to create this elaborate scenario about being an even-night Vig and wanting to convey this through his message about pops earlier in the game.

By the by, did Ecto or McGriddle ever give any breadcrumbs for us? I don't think it's necessary to ask that of our Masons because of how close they've been throughout the game. I accept the idea that they're either scum or they're Masons, because, well, it makes sense.

---

It's entirely possible for Ecto to be scum and McG town here. I don't think it's hugely likely

Why isn't it hugely likely for Ecto to be scum?

I think we should have a mason and someone likely to be scum if the masons are town (preferably Red) cross-vote in a few days time.

If someone can creditably clear Ecto as town in my eyes, then I'm willing to consider voting a Mason. If not, Elmo, you're obviously the person that makes the most sense for me (unless you're prepared to argue against Incog, which I would doubt).

Red is conspicuous by his absence.

:\

The game had only been open 17 hours when you made this post. I hadn't logged on since. Reaching much?

---

Ultimately, if I clear Goat and McGriddle, anyway you slice it, one of the 'nillas

have

to be scum. I just can't picture that being Incog. I don't see what makes Elmo so town to everybody. I truly don't. I assume it has something to do almost entirely with meta. He also protected pops rhetorically, but, why would that be a towntell? If anything, why shouldn't it be a scumtell? Why wouldn't Jahudo protecting NabNab be a towntell then?

I really don't know what else to say that's different from my last post of yesterday. I don't need to tell y'all that Day 3, given the flips we've had, significantly limits the possibilites in a way that Day 1 or 2 don't have. As scum, there's not much I can spin here, and as town, there's not much I can argue that you haven't thought of already.

Incog + Elmo + Ecto/McGriddle

OR

Jahudo + iamausername + Incog/Elmo/Ecto/McGriddle

It's tough when there's no scum to bounce anything off of, but of the four people that show up in both of those scenarios, two of them I've had good feelings on, and one of them just cannot make sense to me as scum.

Vote: Elmo

(Sounds kind of familiar XD)

[RedCoyote]

I don't know what to make of Masons + a Vig being scum though. That seems so farfetched. Especially if they have a Roleblocker, which I think they do.

[RedCoyote]

Sigh.

Unvote

[RedCoyote]

If we really think that both the Vigilantes are telling the truth, then how can you not advocate lynching a Mason? Wouldn't it be a sure thing, if you took that point of view?

If I were Ecto, McGriddle, or Goat, the team of me, Elmo, and Incog honestly wouldn't seem rational.

[RedCoyote]

A lack of trying to understand and address the points of the NabNab wagon. (No quotes, but ISO him and try to find reaction to Nab's "dominant wagon", "bad scum", "only non-invitation" case points on McGriddle, his further reaction to McGriddle unvoting in consideration of voting Nab or Jahudo, or even the speculative scumpairing of Nab and Jahudo. RedCoyote holds out his opinions while filling up his text walls with less pertinent information.)

I thought it was fairly clear my stance on NabNab. I mean, does anyone else agree with this? I stated several times that I didn't like Elmo or Goat's characterizations of NabNab as some sort of confirmed scum, and tried very hard to get everyone to see Elmo for the manipulative stance he was taking or McGriddle for the far too passive position he was taking.

What I'm seeing is a town McGriddle who earnestly believes that NabNab is scum, but is having a hard time figuring out exactly why, and since no one else is helping him out much on that front, he's just having to throw whatever he can think of out there.

And there's no self-interest involved?

Maybe it's because I don't even really get where the NabNab suspicion is coming from that I'm not able to take it seriously. The only thing I've been able to understand so far is the criticism of Elmo's reactivity while asking for Elmo to react. I think that's pretty weak argument against NabNab, and I otherwise haven't seen anything with any real meat on it.

Moreover, Jahudo was content on being more vauge than I ever was on the subject (but I do like his town list ).

* Little interest in investigating Elmo and McGriddle.

I'll be the first one to admit that my case against McGriddle was largely based on two positions. His inactivity, which was hurtful to the overall game, and the way he was so casually discounted by the rest of the players in the game. Together, that seemed to be a pretty suspicious cocktail that deserved a lynch at least more than NabNab ever did. I'm not going to go back and look for every little spat I had with Elmo, but suffice to say that a majority of his interaction with the town has been littered with unnecessary content. He throws up a post counter and doesn't really do anything with it (never moves his vote during D1 if I recall correctly). He goes on this big thing about how he predicted pops to be town and how that makes him obvtown, yet when I ask why this is the case, everyone ignores me. He's never really addressed by the Masons for most of the game, despite him being a serious thorn in their side throughout the game (very early tying Jahudo to NabNab, then basically the whole thing about iamausername + Jahudo are both "equally" good lynches). This leads me to believe that Elmo was only pushing on iamausername and Jahudo to get the claim out and hopefully coast to victory. The problem with this point is that Incog virtually mimics Elmo's position here.

* Blanket condemnation of the members of the NabNab wagon, setting up for plenty of scapegoats (and a scapegoatrevolt). This looks bad because he didn't have a strong argument for finding NabNab to be a townie, and it looks like he's projecting Nab to flip town more confidently than he can back up.

I think I had a great case for finding NabNab townie. It was that Elmo, Goat, and McGriddle were all pushing the wagon without sincerity, in complete confirmation bias mode. The problem was I looked at the wrong players. iamausername and Elmo were likely the major culprits. iamausername pulled in SC and, to an extent, McGriddle (by showing there was no repercussion for being inactive and voting NabNab, since no one was interested in nailing iamausername or McGriddle at that time), Elmo pulling in Goat, Incog, and Patrick (Elmo must be town, therefore NabNab must be scum). Goat threw me off because he led me to believe there was something in NabNab that I wasn't seeing, but it turns out he was really just on the wagon because Elmo was. Anyways, I was right to voice my concerns with NabNab because there were much bettter lynches afoot.

I don't see where he was overly concerned that NabNab was the only wagon during the middle of the day. He only showed that frustration when it was too late. It looks like he was coasting and maybe setting up a mislynch or two, though I don't really think he was invested in his Elmo case.

Hm? I come on pretty early. I make it clear back in post 205 that, one, I don't like the NabNab wagon, and two, McGriddle and Elmo are not being pushed hard enough.

Before this point, most of the people voting NabNab were doing so because they wanted to hear from him (iamausername, Incog), so I had assumed this was little more than a temporary vote that would be expanded on as the day went on. When this lazily limped its way all the way through until the end of the day is when it dawned on me that no one (sans maybe Ecto) was really even considering what I had to say about Elmo, Goat, or McGriddle.

For the life of me I don't get how you can say I wasn't invested in Elmo. I have been on him every day.

[RedCoyote]

Totally untrue. I don't know how you could honestly believe this.

Elmo is town because he was the first to jump on Nabscum when Nab decided to push McGriddle.

These reads were intrinsically tied together; we talked about this ad nauseum on the first day. You said several times that if NabNab flipped scum, then you were sure that Elmo was town. You also said to discount your Elmoread if NabNab flipped town. I discounted it, but apparently you didn't as your Elmoread hasn't changed one iota. Do us both a favor and don't sit here and deny that Elmo's vote didn't influence your NabNab vote, please. There's no sense getting into that argument again.

I'll make this short mostly for you, Goat, because I don't think there's any sense in speaking with McGriddle. McGriddle has long since checked out of this game, if he's ever been invested in it at all. I'm not scum. You know I'm not scum. Yeah, I want you to be scum, but I said that tongue-in-cheek because I know you are town given pops' flip. I've been cutesy with you lately, but it's mostly because I'm sore that you're town. I haven't entertained the possibility that you are scum since the day started.

But you really need to make a choice between the Vigilantes or the Masons, as does the other two claimed VTs in Incog and Elmo (one being real, one not, I would imagine), because we'll lose today otherwise. It's just not rational to vote a VT today. I voted Elmo earlier, but I'm glad I unvoted because it gave me a chance to think more about the pairings.

I think we can all acknowledge that the scumteam probably cannot be Masons + a Vigilante. I'll admit that if the Masons to flip scum, which I'm now betting is probably the case given Jahudo's convenient switch from calling me town to calling me scum (why wouldn't he do a 180 if he thinks he can get me lynched), then that puts me in an uncomfortable position. Let's not worry about that today though.

Vote: Jahudo

We can discuss this more if you'd wish, but you have to switch your vote. McGriddle won't do it. Otherwise what's going to happen otherwise is Jahudo is going to say, "Alright, I've made up my mind... vote: RC", and then iamausername is going to come in a finish the job.

[RedCoyote]

But you only voted NabNab based on Elmo's case and Elmo's vote, Goat. Do you really contend that Elmo had absolutely nothing to do with your original NabNab vote in post 148? If that's your position, then we'll leave it at a misunderstanding. Obviously you have no reason to be dishonest, but I completely misread that post. Fatally so, it would appear.

Jahudo jumped on you yesterday. I don't know why you waited for now to call him scum for 180'ing on you.

As fencesitting as it may seem, I can't scratch the nagging itch that Ecto is scum. He hasn't said much today, almost as if he's just biding his time. I want so badly for the Masons to be town, and I'm not ashamed to say that. We both know it doesn't look good for me if that Masons are scum. I guess I saw them as friends rather than enemies.

Whatever the case may be, there doesn't appear to be any doubt in your mind.

McGriddle, if you read this, I encourage you to look beyond the "easiest" lynch and join me in lynching a Mason. I'm fairly comfortable in your towniness, and, from your position, you can't really lose if you vote a Mason today (unless you think the scumteam is me/Elmo/Incog).

[RedCoyote]

"damnit, why do I never reach a day 2 as town? Watching these guys is like drinking a bottle of cough medicine."

I don't know what this means, but I'm guessing it's not much of a compliment. XD

Our Mod did wonderful. I've never seen a game make it from start to finish, not only without any replacements, but without any prods. That has to be some sort of testament to the professionalism and dedication of the entire playerlist. It was well selected and it was a real joy to play with everyone here. The setup seemed fine and the bankable deadlines were added incentive to push the game along (a good thing).

As far as any reactions to the alignments go, it looks about right. McGriddle's jumping around this last day and both him and Ecto's reluctance to really push on the Masons seemed really strange, but, to be honest, I felt a little shortchanged by our Mason team towards the end. I really wanted to believe the Mason claims, right up to the end, until Jahudo came down on me. I don't think I ever really had a problem with either of them from the beginning of the game onward. Then, maybe out of OMGUS, maybe out of just frustration with the town's lack of getting anywhere, I completely lost all sympathy I had for the Mason team and went for it. iamausername said he kind of lost interest and Jahudo, I'm guessing, just wanted whatever lynch that wasn't a Mason.

But you win as a team and you lose as a team. Always. The scum team did better than the town team did. Good game, everyone.