Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Incognito]

Hi.

1)

Patrick

2)

Elmo

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

1)

vote

2)

Major FoS

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Incognito]

vote: Elmo
Major FoS: Patrick

42%, bitches.

I know you from somewhere but can't remember where. USually those cases ultimately turn out to be "oh yeah I saw him murdering a guy at a bar one time".

I modded you in that Open game that I created. Weak M.D.

On the topic of beating significant others, I haven't beaten mine in awhile because... well, I don't HAVE one right now. Unless you can consider yourself your own significant other in which case, yeah.

[Incognito]

A question for all; if you were scum, how would we tell?

When I'm scum, I think I'm less likely to try to 'clear' people as town.

Incidentally, I'm not a fan of your question. Do you always have a tendency to try to assert that you're town in your opening post, or do you only have a habit of doing this when you're scum?

[Incognito]

@iamausername:

Yeah, it was mostly the "we" stuff. It just reminded me of something similar that I've seen from you as scum before from way back in your very first game on here where you seemed to try to assert that you're town by asking everyone about their role preference and the like.

As for this game, Patrick looks suspicious. Whoever starts pointing the most baseless fingers in the RVS looks fishy to me. But I hope I'm not omgussing.

Why do you believe scum would be more likely to take the RVS seriously than town would?

[Incognito]

@Incognito: I think scum are more likely to take RVS seriously because there really on the average isn't anything there for the first few pages. Town sit around with the mentality "when something scummy happens, i'll move and accelerate the game".
Scum sit around with the mentality "when something happens, I'll move and accelerate the game".

What's the difference between these two mentalities? They say exactly the same thing. Or did you mean to say something else?

In my experience, I've seen the mentality you're putting forth as the "town mentality" in certain instances, sure, but also in my experience I've found that it's usually

town

that tries to pick on minor nuances in the hopes of bringing the scum out of their comfort zone to try to push the game from something that's jokey to something that's a bit more serious. I've also seen plenty of towns crumble by taking the exact mindset that you're suggesting a townie should take here. Sitting on our hands and HOPING that scum make some slip or HOPING that someone does something scummy doesn't typically lead to anything. I'd argue that's the type of scenario that's a scum's dream come true.

This is kind of a chunk of the universal tendency for scum to point fingers at something that isn't a valid tell, but it's a special case because scum are even more restless in the RVS stage, they can't even give thumbsup/thumbsdown to any real scumhunting.

If you think what Patrick called you out on wasn't a valid tell, then why not provide some kind of an answer to his question anyway or at least acknowledge it?

-~-~

I don't really like Goatrevolt's certainty about popsofctown's alignment on this page, but I don't really see it as malicious at this point.

SerialClergyman's post 35 stuck out to me too because it didn't really address some of the major things that have been brought up on this page. SC, any other thoughts on anyone else so far aside from me?

@Patrick:

Yeah, I was going from memory, so you could be right. I figured it was worth commenting on anyway.

[Incognito]

In response to Goat:

I'm not certain about his alignment, I'm just going after what I find most suspicious.

The following two quotes looked like certainty to me:

Because he's scum.

On a more serious note, I think pops is scum. My vote wasn't random.

The second quote continued on with a case on pops.

Specifically what do you find bothersome about it? If not malicious, then what do you dislike?

Well, it was page 2 of a thread that's been open for less than a real life day. While I agree that some of popsofctown's behavior has been questionable, I can in no way state right now with any amount of confidence that I think he's scum. And I can't recall a time that I've ever been able to do so this early in any game that I've been in. So that's what I didn't like about it. I think I understood what you were doing there though, so I didn't find it malicious - it was something I wanted to keep an eye on.

@popsofctown:

So I did miss the word "scummy" in there. Apologies for that.

[Incognito]

I don't know neccesarilly if he is scum, but he could either be scum or vanilla townie, I can't see him as a PR.

Seriously? Do you think it's wise to speculate about possible power roles so openly?

[Incognito]

I'd just like to point out that I specifically said I

didn't

find Goatrevolt's opening stuff on popsofctown to be malicious. I just felt like it was a bit early to be definitively calling anyone scum. If Goatrevolt had continued pushing his case without seeming to consider pops's responses to his case, I might have started seeing it as being malicious, but I like the fact that Goat seems to be taking the time to actually

consider

popsofctown's responses. He doesn't seem like he's just trying to railroad someone, and I'm currently leaning towards thinking Goat's interrogation was actually genuine.

Incog, do you think McGriddle's PR comment is scummy, or just bad?

Right now I'm thinking it was just bad. I don't think scum would so openly speculate about a person's role like that in-thread when they could simply wait until the Night-time to discuss that kind of thing in their QuickTopic. And the one time I HAVE seen someone do similar to what McGriddle did seems to lend support to this idea -- the in-thread PR speculation ended up coming from someone who was town. Either way, I'd like to see it come to a halt.

@Ectomancer:

Your thoughts on this? Your #62 seemed to imply that you thought McGriddle's comment was more likely to come from scum. Am I wrong with this interpretation?

And I think you meant you look forward to me answering ecto because you quoted him.

He quoted him, yeah, but I was the one who asked the question.

As I mentioned later, I don't find your choice of words scummy, as Incognito did. (that's your explanation requested above, red.)

Where did I say that I thought his choice of words was scummy?

-~-~

I don't see the contradiction that RedCoyote's pointed out in his #73 and further elaborated on his #76. SerialClergyman seems to be stating that he doesn't find Goat's attacks scummy but that Goatrevolt's basically "barking up the wrong tree" by going after him (SC). There have been plenty of times I've been attacked by someone, I felt like they were simply being misguided, and therefore I didn't find them scummy for it. So I don't see what RedCoyote is getting at.

Would like to hear stuff from Elmo. My vote can stay on him for now.

[Incognito]

You pretty much already responded to it.

[Incognito]

Though I might agree with you that an incautious townie could make the same mistake, I will also not discount that the guy who says he always plays scummy will do scummy things as scum.

But McGriddle never claimed that he always plays scummy. He said that his play is just terrible regardless of his alignment. I think there's a difference between the two.

I don't mind Elmo's vote on Ectomancer there - the one thing that I was beginning to notice about Ectomancer's play was that his vote over the past few pages was moving about a bit too loosely for my taste. I don't know if this is typical of Ecto though since I've never played with him before.

Elmo, any thoughts on any of the other things that have happened over the past few pages?

I disagree with practically everything popsofctown said in his 102. I'm too mentally drained to elaborate on why. Incidentally I probably won't be able to post again until late Thursday. Exam to continue to study for, and I still have like 4 chapters to go.

[Incognito]

Got time for a post before I re-hit the books.

I'm sure Elmo will be pleased you approve, despite his not being able to recall or state why it was there. If you believe a vote was needed for "loose" voting, then why wasn't it your own?

Because I was still waiting for Elmo (the person I'm currently voting) to offer some input. I didn't see any reason to shift my vote to someone new when Elmo hadn't produced anything in the way of content. Also, I wanted to see if your vote shifting was something that became a pattern and if it did, I figured I'd be able to check into past games to see if this was typical of you before coming to a conclusion about it.

As for what I meant by loose, I just didn't feel like your vote transitions were very clear to me. Yes, each of your vote switches were backed with reasoning and a case, but I didn't develop the impression that, for example, when your vote was on pops, that you prodded and probed him to get a feel for where he was coming from. Similar could be said about your current vote on RedCoyote. Maybe loose is the wrong word to describe it; I just didn't get the feeling that you were attempting to engage in conversation with your suspects in an attempt to try and figure them out.

I do agree with SerialClergyman that your most recent post gives me a bit of a better vibe though.

I post fluff with both alignments now. I found out it's actually pretty fun.

unvote, vote: popsofctown

Either begin producing more in the way of content, or I will seriously begin pushing your lynch hard. With two week deadlines, I don't think we have time to be fooling around.

I'd like to see much more coming from NabNab, Jahudo, iamausername, and Patrick too. For the first three, I feel like I have absolutely no preliminary reads on. With Patrick, I still haven't completely gotten that distinct town feel that I normally get when I've played in past games with him.

[Incognito]

btw, Ecto, if you're ever doing meta again in the future this link is probably what you wanna be using right now rather than a google search.

[Incognito]

Back from the exam from hell. I should be ok activity-wise for awhile hopefully. Trying to catch up now.

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something

This is ringing my scumdar.

With respect to NabNab or with respect to Elmo?

So you're happy with Elmo's contribution level?

At the time that I wrote that, I still felt like he could get more involved. Although, fwiw, I thought his return post where he just came in and voted Ecto was probably more likely to be done by Elmo-town than Elmo-scum. Since that time, I'm feeling better about him. After all, he posted Cookie Monster. Elmo posting Cookie Monster = Elmo practically confirmed town.

-~-~

I disagree with NabNab's case on McGriddle; he states that McGriddle's vote "just so happens to play into the dominant wagon" but at the time that McG voted, I certainly wouldn't have considered the pops wagon to be the dominant one. McG's vote placed pops at 2 votes when RedCoyote's wagon was the clear leader at that point. I don't see the other point about playing the invitational card either; maybe if McGriddle said something like "I suck compared to you guys, so TAKE IT EASY ON ME!" I might be able to see what NabNab is getting at. McG said something distinctly different there.

Also, I didn't like how NabNab classified Elmo's play as "just bad form" when stating he finds him suspicious. To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

It was the Incog one that got me the most, considering that he wasn't even asking you anything.

I did ask him something though.

I like the wagon on NabNab and could probably lend my support to it too. Still feel like pops needs to produce more though before I decide if I wanna change my vote or not.

gonna break this into another post since this one's getting kinda long.

[Incognito]

Not too much more to cover. Patrick's 146 gives me a much better vibe about him, but I'm still kinda worried about it - I remember getting a bad vibe from him in the last game we played together, then he put out a post that made me feel better about him, and I wrote him off as town when he was scum.

Incognito actually seemed kind of off to me, but his last post changed my mind.

I did? What seemed off about me?

As for your question about RC, I'm having a hard time getting a read on him too. I don't like his Elmo-vote, or his further explanation of it, and I've disagreed with a few of his other positions too.

Why not? If Elmo's contributions are limited to "X is a good post" and "Y is town", then there's no reason to keep him around. There's no vulnerability in that. When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Where did Elmo decline to elaborate on his reads?


Jahudo feels background-ish to me again, even with his latest post.

And I need sleep. I only got 2 hours of it last night. I'll try and pick up where I left off later.

[Incognito]

Jahudo, the fact that McGriddle pointed out something that he felt was off about pops' posting led me to believe that he was becoming suspicious of him. He framed it in a 'you're either vanilla or scum' way, but I still see it as a form of suspicion.

Incidentally, McGriddle, can you link to the game you've been talking about?

[Incognito]

Cross-posted.

To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

Would you say that either instance would be acceptable grounds for a D1 lynch though (with preference to the latter)?

No, if I felt someone was being anti-town but couldn't definitively say that I thought his or her behavior was more likely to come from scum, I wouldn't be willing to support that person's lynch. You would?

[Incognito]

@McGriddle:

Thanks. Yeah, I can definitely see a difference in play in that game when compared to here. pops looked like he was producing more in the way of content and seemed to take the game a bit more seriously. That play there is actually more in line with the play I remember from the game I modded him in where he was also town.

Jahudo is likely town.

What makes you say that?

[Incognito]

Trying to catch up with stuff. I'll try to keep this brief since this page had a bunch of walls already.

Mind control.

I'm gonna need you to elaborate on this a bit more. Because I got the same feel Patrick did in his #196 about Jahudo's post #179, so it surprised me when you suddenly mentioned you had a town read on him. What

specifically

is it about Jahudo's posting that made you feel he was town?

Maybe making the 5th consecutive reasonless vote on this wagon seems like a dangerous play if this whole things goes belly up.

Do you find the other reasonless votes scummy so far? I think this is the first post where you've actually

addressed

the wagon on you and it strikes me as a bit bizarre that you've taken this long to do so. I know that when I'm being wagoned, I'm usually strongly interested in each and every person's reasons for wagoning me because I know I can use that wagon to get a feel for people's possible alignments. It's odd that you haven't seemed to take the time to do just that.

-~-~

I should note that despite the fact that I did mention that I like the wagon on NabNab, I did find myself disliking McGriddle's eventual vote. I can see what Patrick's saying about it seeming like something a bit brazen for scum to do, but the follow-up post made by McGriddle doesn't inspire as much confidence.

I never thought pops was too scummy to begin with, but it being the beginning of the game I like to have my vote places for pressure.

Didn't you say he was your strongest read when you placed your vote on him though? Also, if you like having your vote places just for pressure, why exactly did you feel the need to remove it when you were planning on doing this iso read of NabNab? You said you felt pops was still scummy in your book; I don't get why the pressure would need to be removed then.

@popsofctown:

Why is your vote still on Goatrevolt?

Gonna make another post on other stuff tomorrow.

[Incognito]

Of course. I don't subscribe NabNab's point of view that Elmo is acting in "bad form" (I'd say he's probably just trying to be cute), but I'd definitely be willing to lynch someone on the first day who I thought was actively hurting the town's chances at victory, because that's the best time to do so.

What would you consider to be something that might actively hurt the town's chances at winning on a Day 1 that would come from someone you believe is more likely to be anti-town than scummy?

I don't subscribe to this viewpoint because I've seen too many cases particularly in Newbie Games where I see a player who's being attacked, I think that player is being attacked for things that are anti-town but not scummy, and I end up writing the player off as town and begin focusing my efforts on the other people in the game. Clearing that one player as town would then allow me to narrow the pool of suspects by one less player, and by doing so I've therefore increased my chances of hitting scum while keeping the vote and opinion of someone who's likely town alive and kicking to be used against scum assuming I'm right about the player in question. That's pretty important, no?

Also, what do you mean by your comments that you think Elmo is doing things just to be cute?

@Ectomancer:

I see. I thought your town read of him might have stemmed from his post #179 since your comment about him being town followed only directly

after

that. Jahudo made comments about the (near-)universal town stuff on you a page earlier.

-~-~

I guess the thing that bothered me about Jahudo's #179 wasn't only the switch in opinion(s); it was also just the way it was done. I made a post asking for McGriddle to link to the popsofctown-game that he kept talking about and then only minutes later Jahudo mentioned the following:

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

The first part where he seems to imply that he didn't know what game it was all along just doesn't seem genuine to me. Considering the fact that my post was made at 5:18 my time and Jahudo's post was made less than 20 minutes after it, I just don't see how he could have

a)

found the game,

b)

analyzed it to see if he could figure out what McGriddle was talking about, and then

c)

change his opinion of him in such a short timeframe. Jahudo, when did you first figure out what game it was McG was referring to?

[Incognito]

I'm glad I'm not the only person bothered by it. Was there any particular reason you didn't question him about this yourself?

When I said that I got the same feel you did, I was talking about the part that you addressed to Goatrevolt where you mentioned that you were thinking Jahudo might have been shifting to bus-mode on a hypo NabNab-scum. I was thinking the same thing and that's why I questioned Ecto on his town read of Jahudo in my #185. I get the feeling that you think I was referring to the first half of your post there - that part I hadn't picked up on until you pointed it out.



I finally got a chance to sift through the case(s) on SerialClergyman and at the moment, I'm not really buying into either one of them. Both Goat and pops pointed out SC's fairly quick shift in opinion on NabNab and I do see what they're getting at, but I certainly wouldn't consider lynching SC at this time as I've generally gotten a good feeling about him for a good portion of the game so far. If NabNab is Today's lynch and does flip scum, I don't think SC would be my first choice for his buddy either way.

[Incognito]

Incognito, what's your view of popsofclown?

Patrick, some people are afraid of clowns. It's not nice to change pops' name like that, ya know.

I'm not too sure about popsofc

town

right now. Even though I disagree with his case against ze Clergyman, I do think he brings up certain points that I can see myself bringing up against someone, so that's making me second guess myself about him (I'm talking mainly about the portion of his case where he scrutinizes SerialClergyman's sentence structure, which led him to believe that SC's thought process might not be genuine, and the other part of his case where he points out that SC's shift in opinion on NabNab seemed unnatural). That and the fact that Jahudo, a person who I'm getting a slight scummy read off of, voted him are beginning to give me some doubts about my initial read of him.

@iamausername:

Prior to that post, Jahudo was giving McGriddle a bit of flak and stating that he basically agreed with the case that NabakovNabakov put together against him (McG), and he questioned me about why I disagreed. I stated why I disagreed and then asked McGriddle to link to the game he had been referring to all along. If Jahudo's scum, I could see him trying to ignore the game in question so that he could continue to push the case against McG. I don't think that would be able to happen any longer once the game came to the forefront though.

[Incognito]

Elmo, do you draw any conclusions from that?

[Incognito]

not happy that Jahudo doesn't seem to be getting any heat at this point.

Me too.

unvote
vote: Jahudo

I'll catch up with the other stuff a little later. Gotta sit down and study for a bit.

[Incognito]

@Ectomancer:

Can you explain your Elmo-vote a bit more? You mentioned that posting charts and graphics seems to be a tell that shows when

Adel

is scum, but do you think that same tell applies to all players?

Also, I'm not sure I understand the spat that's going on between you and SC as of late. Are you reading him as scummy too?

I've responded this way to absurd wagons before, except that was a case where a player posted a ridiculously thorough case rather than a ridiculously sparse one.

I didn't read the whole case but knowing Mastin, I'd hazard a guess that about 90% of what he wrote wasn't even relevant and maybe that's why you decided it wasn't worth the response?

Furthermore I disagree with whoever said that pops/Jahudo don't fit as scum together. I think they definitely can. Jahudo jumping on him for a reason that wasn't very good long after the wagon died out doesn't suggest that pops is town if Jahudo is scum.

I think you might be referring to my comment where I mentioned that Jahudo's vote on pops was making me second guess myself about pops' alignment. Considering the fact that wagons were brewing on other players at the time that Jahudo decided to vote pops, do you really think it would make sense for a Jahudo-scum to attempt to bus his hypo-buddy there? What would it achieve?

I'd say that Newbie Games are a different animal altogether, but yes, I get where you're coming from. Do you think that's happening here?

Nope, I think the quality of players in this game wouldn't allow something like that to happen here. I was bringing up the Newbie example more for theoretical discussion. I think the original point I was trying to make about NabNab's Elmo comment got lost in translation somewhere through all of this and that is that I think scum is more likely than town to claim that a person acting in an anti-town way is "suspicious". That's why I didn't like NabNab's comment there.

As for your question on my SerialClergyman read, no, there's nothing too specific that I can point to. I thought he made a pretty good turnaround from the stuff I originally had an issue with on page 2 of the thread - his explanation for why he didn't comment on that stuff made sense. Also, I think the scum hunting that he has put forth doesn't look forced or fake, and I think that NabNab or Jahudo are just more likely to be scum than SC at this time, so I'd prefer lynching one of them. Do note that I said that with respect to the information that we've learned so far

Today

. If I'm still alive and more info crops up at a later time, I might change my mind on him, obv.

[Incognito]

@pops:

Right now, I'm voting Jahudo because yes, I do think he's been a bit lurky so far, and I've just been getting a backgroundsy type of feel from his posting. I don't know how to elaborate it any better than that - he's been asking questions and stuff yes, but the impression that I've been getting is that he's just asking them for the sake of asking them; it just doesn't feel genuine to me. Also there was the issue I brought up about his turnaround on McGriddle which he did try and explain, but I still just can't shake my initial feeling about it.

[Incognito]

@SerialClergyman:

It wasn't really your thoughts I wanted expanding on. I was asking for Ectomancer's thoughts because I didn't understand his position on you. The impression that I got from his posts was that he was giving you flak over the past few pages, but then he ended up voting Elmo. I just wasn't following his thought process there.

@Ectomancer:

Since Elmo's already responded to your accusation, I'd just like to mention that I really didn't see Elmo's post count thing as an attempt to look busy at all, especially after he explained its purpose here:

I'm mostly checking my perception of how much people are posting. It was useful, I was quite off on some people - I figure it helps if everyone can use that.

And actually, I ended up thinking along the same lines as the above too - before Elmo posted those numbers, I definitely thought certain people like you and pops were lower in post count and I thought others like Patrick and RedCoyote were a bit higher. I also thought Jahudo would be the lowest but it turned out that iamausername held that spot. Everyone else was about where I expected. For me, I think it's probably a good indicator of how high a person's sig:noise ratio might be.

@Nabakov:

I could see Jahudo as scum completely independently of you. Also, I think I responded to a similar question as yours already, so I'll just quote that:

Prior to that post, Jahudo was giving McGriddle a bit of flak and stating that he basically agreed with the case that NabakovNabakov put together against him (McG), and he questioned me about why I disagreed. I stated why I disagreed and then asked McGriddle to link to the game he had been referring to all along. If Jahudo's scum, I could see him trying to ignore the game in question so that he could continue to push the case against McG. I don't think that would be able to happen any longer once the game came to the forefront though.

Unless there was something else you wanted me to elaborate on.

-~-~

Other thoughts: I don't understand why Jahudo didn't really bother to defend himself from my vote and only seemed to do so only after receiving another vote from pops.

Also just taking Jahudo's suspicions one by one:

- If I'm understanding your Patrick suspicions correctly, you're basically stating that since Patrick hasn't placed a non-random vote yet, he's allowed himself to be removed from accountability and that he's been offering off-wagon support to the NabNab wagon. Considering the fact that the wagon reached L-2 rather quickly, do you still think Patrick should have placed his vote on Nab anyway? Do you often find it scummy for people to hold off for awhile on voting?
- The Goatrevolt stuff doesn't make much sense to me either. Namely, I don't understand why your Goatrevolt suspicions don't apply to people like SerialClergyman or Elmo who also didn't really delve into their reasoning right away and also began looking for possible ties back to NabNab too instead of fully elaborating on the NabNab case. Explain?

[Incognito]

Also, McGriddle, I just checked back and I noticed you didn't respond to a question I asked before. Could ya respond:

I never thought pops was too scummy to begin with, but it being the beginning of the game I like to have my vote places for pressure.

Didn't you say he was your strongest read when you placed your vote on him though? Also, if you like having your vote places just for pressure, why exactly did you feel the need to remove it when you were planning on doing this iso read of NabNab? You said you felt pops was still scummy in your book; I don't get why the pressure would need to be removed then.

[Incognito]

Jahudo, maybe defend is the wrong word there then. I just was surprised that you didn't seem to react to my vote at all. Like pops said in his interpretive post, you just seemed to ignore it completely.

You're right on the premise of my concern, however I thought he showed some indication of liking the Nabakov wagon when it only had 1 vote on it.

I looked back, and I couldn't find this. The first post Patrick made after NabNab got one vote on him was post #146 where he doesn't seem to give any kind of strong reads for who he thinks is scum; he only gives town reads there. Was there a section you had in mind?

@McGriddle:

Fair enough, I guess.

-~-~

I'm gonna go ahead and do this:

unvote
vote: NabNab

It doesn't seem likely that a wagon will switch to Jahudo before deadline, and I've mentioned that I agree with the wagon on NabNab anyway.

NabNab, since you've mentioned that nobody seems to be giving reasons for their vote, I'll state that my reasons are as follows: 1) a lack of curiosity about the wagon on you namely early on (you responded to this by stating that you've done this before when you've considered the wagon absurd, but I don't think this wagon could have ever been considered that especially when it accumulated a few votes somewhat quickly, and I still don't think you've done much scum-hunting off of it), 2) misrepping a few of McGriddle's position (the point about him joining the largest wagon, which wasn't true, and the point about him playing the invitational card when I'd argue that he didn't really do that are two positions that come to mind from memory), and 3) a contradiction that I noticed earlier (calling Elmo's play "bad form" but then later on stating that Elmo "knows what he's doing"). Also, I do agree that your level of scum-hunting has been lower than I would expect to come from you, and I think some of the points you've tried to bring up look like you're stretching them to make them seem like a bigger deal than they actually are.

Claim plz.

[Incognito]

I just did a bit of meta-ing of the mod after NabNab claimed, and it looks like Hoopla HAS used the Rolecop role in the only other game she modded (Mini 820 - The Seaside for those keeping score at home). According to that game, she had a Rolecop as both a town-aligned role AND a scum-aligned role, so I could really see NabNab's claim coming from either alignment. I'm still cool with his lynch.

Also, if NabNab really is scum, I could see this as being a potential slip:

Townies and scum show as vanilla, everyone else shows as their role. Now that I've revealed it, it's pretty much worthless, as the only really useful thing I would think to do with it is catch scum in a lie.

As Goatrevolt pointed out, a Rolecop has the ability to tell the user if a given person has a power role EVEN IF the person investigated is scum; it just won't show the person's alignment. If NabNab is the scum team's sole PR, he might have been thinking about the results he might have gotten on his potential buddies rather than thinking about how his role might look in a different game-state from what we might have here.



Other stuff:

That's all well and good, but then why not make use of it? Why won't Elmo? If it was a townie thing to do, explain what uses Elmo has made of it. Explain how NabNab's post count hurt him (since it didn't cause Elmo to move his vote, and it didn't change your position that NabNab was a good wagon).

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree. With respect to NabNab, I feel like his post count has been a bit low, and my feeling is that his content level has gone right alongside that for the most part too. So that's a big reason why I still support his wagon. I've been somewhat critical of Ectomancer and popsofctown throughout Day 1 too; and like I elaborated on, I felt like despite the fact that their post count totals were among the highest, their content levels were still a bit on the low side. popsofctown seems to have corrected this a bit as of late and Ectomancer still gives me a bit of mixed feelings at this time.

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

-~-~

@McGriddle: Why did that post make you wanna confirm your vote on NabNab?

I don't really have much more to add at this time. I'll try to read over the last page a bit more closely to see if there's anything else worth mentioning, but I think the most pressing issue (that of re: NabNab) is probably the most important thing to take of right now.

[Incognito]

I don't know about Incognito's vote switching. I think I can see town doing it, and I don't see scum motivation for going back if he was partnered with Nab. If Nab is town, there's more motivation for the double manuever but not much. I think it comes off slightly positive.

I don't get what you're saying here. My current vote for Nab was the first time I've voted him all game. Did you read something incorrectly?

This is also bullshit. "Oh, I don't think he knew what he was doing, but he quickly came up with an excuse for doing it!"
Well blow me down! There is no way it could be busy work if he came with a reasonable reason for it after the fact!

What exactly is the problem? I was

asked

for my opinion of Elmo's vote-count thing, and I gave it. You read it as Elmo performing "busy work", and I didn't read it in that way. Explain why you think Elmo's whole posting in that area was more likely to be done by an Elmo-scum who was 1) trying to seem active and 2) trying to find after-the-fact justification for what he was doing. All I've seen so far is you stating a bunch of times that it IS that without really elaborating on why you think that way.

That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.

Even if I'm not Elmo, isn't trying to figure out what's going on in any person's head the very premise of Mafia? I don't see why my interpretation of Elmo's actions there is a reach either.

Extremely eager to see the NabNab flip. I agree with Patrick's 384 in that I think a pro-town PR Nabakov would have probably been more likely to put up a fight or leave at least SOME kind of top three to let us know where his major suspicions were. I really don't see what's been difficult to figure out about me though.

[Incognito]

vote jahudo

:goodvoting:

vote: Jahudo

Goatrevolt, I'm not sure I understand your Ectomancer-FoS. Explain?

As an aside, killing Patrick during N1 is soooooo last year.

[Incognito]

So you're saying that you think Ectomancer is faking a lack of knowledge?

[Incognito]

I read his post differently, but I'll let him respond before commenting further.

[Incognito]

A few things to respond to here so I'll divide this post up a bit. Here's part 1 of... probably 2.

@Jahudo:

The first two points are admittedly more on the speculative side because I really can't know whether or not you looked into the "Command Points" stuff before or after I asked McG to link to the game, so I'm not as concerned about them right now.

As for which places were ones where I felt you were background-ish, I'm looking through your isolation now and post #81 was probably the first one to give me that kind of feeling. I think it was mainly because in that post, you were touching on pops-related stuff that had already been analyzed to a certain extent, and you didn't make much mention on the other stuff that had happened outside of pops at around that time. Also, in that post, I don't get a clear vibe as to which way you were leaning on pops' alignment there; you seem to mention some positives, negatives, and neutrals about him, so to me the post comes off as a bit wish-washy. Your 10th post does more of the same too - you make mention that you don't like the Nab wagon but then also mention there's a point that you do like about it. Again, it just feels wishy-washy to me.

The other things I'm noticing are your switch to SC in your 13th post - the switch just didn't feel natural to me and felt forced instead. It came after I questioned you about how SC was making ties back to NabNab the same way Goatrevolt had been doing, and you pulled up a few quotes that showed where he did this "tieing together" thing before switching your vote to him. The transition there just didn't feel right especially since SC really

had

listed separate reasoning for you being scum prior to those posts outside of a possible NabNab partnership, so I couldn't completely figure out why you wanted to switch at that time when you seemed so bent on a pops-lynch anyway. I also don't see where pops was fence-sitting on NabNab like you mention - he mentioned earlier in Day 1 that he had a bad gut feeling about him but later in the Day I thought he made it fairly clear that he just wasn't having those feelings anymore. That seems more like a change in opinion to me rather than fence sitting.

[Incognito]

Part 2 of 2.

Re: Ectomancer and Goatrevolt and the word "settled" - yeah, Ectomancer's explanation is about how I read that post there, Goat. I didn't expect the second part of Ectomancer's post though.

So though not assured by his opinion, I don't see how Elmo can jump to the opposite reasoning simply because Patrick was wrong on one opinion.

Do you really think Elmo is voting Jahudo just because Night 1's NK listed him as his other top suspect? How familiar are you with Elmo's play exactly?

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Yes, please do.

-~-~

@RedCoyote:

I don't understand the lower part of your post #407 at all. First, I definitely can't see the appeal of a popsofctown/Goatrevolt scum team - Goatrevolt has pretty clearly been at pops' neck for the majority of the game even at times that other targets have presented themselves. And like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I always got the feeling that Goat was actually

trying

to figure out pops' alignment in each of his posts rather than just railroading him or just pushing a case against him blindly. Do you feel differently about that? Can you point to examples in this game that give you a pops/Goat scum pairing feeling?

Because of the above, I just don't get how you could claim to support the pops wagon but attack Goat for going down the same path he started Yesterday - I'd think that since Goat's suspicions are now going in line with your own, you might be getting a better feeling about him especially since he was one of the first one to voice all this concern about pops' alignment in the first place. Why is that not the case?

-~-~

I'm not crazy about the pops-wagon right now. I was beginning to get a better feeling about pops at the end of Yesterday, and I feel like for the most part that feeling is about the same. Also, the fact that Jahudo is the one pushing the wagon is probably another source of my concern too.

[Incognito]

But I don't see where I presented a negative on pops. I didn't have a read on him that early into the game, but on that one point I thought he wasn't out of character for his Goat vote. I don't think I gave any indication it might be scummy.

Goat's case might have legs

with the OMGUS suspicion. It was oddly timed and could use more explanation.

To say that a case "might have legs" I would think means that you believe it could be indicative of him being scum, no? So that would be a negative.

I only liked one part of the case on Nab. That shouldn't mean I have to either accept all of it or refuse all of it. If I was supporting and refusing the same part of the Nab case, then I could see your meaning. But I wasn't.

Right, but usually when a person states that they agree or disagree with a case, they'll usually then go forward and state what their overall read of the person is. Stating that you agree with a certain portion of this or a certain portion of that but not this portion is fine and dandy, but I would expect your

overall

impression of the person's alignment to go along with that. I don't see any indication of that in the post I linked to. Because of that, it just feels wishy-washy to me.

As for the SC listing his own separate reasoning for finding you scummy, see below:

When I came back, he and jahudo had attempted to disarm my town read of Ecto is a scummy way.

Even though the "he" he's mentioning here happened to be NabNab who he claimed might be linked to you, I still think that's a separate reason.

It looked like he was trying to avoid any ownership for or against the wagon. I could see why he would, since I was being pegged as a Nab buddy for voicing any opposition.

Can you explain this last part?

-~-~

@SerialClergyman and Ectomancer:

What do you guys think of my Jahudo case? I find it odd that you both posted and just decided to vote pops without commenting on my case at all.

Separate post to follow.

[Incognito]

I, too, would like to mention that I was bothered by SC's and Ecto's practically simultaneous votes on pops. I don't really get why my Jahudo case was largely ignored, and I found SC's mentioning that iamausername's case that he made

Yesterday

was one of the major reasons he's joined the pops-hate Today to be odd. It just doesn't give me the feeling that he's trying to figure out iamausername's alignment at all and like he was planning on hopping on with a pops-vote at the start of Today no matter what.

@SerialClergyman:

Could you provide a response to this:

I don't know about Incognito's vote switching. I think I can see town doing it, and I don't see scum motivation for going back if he was partnered with Nab. If Nab is town, there's more motivation for the double manuever but not much. I think it comes off slightly positive.

I don't get what you're saying here. My current vote for Nab was the first time I've voted him all game. Did you read something incorrectly?

Also this:

I wouldn't lynch Red, me, Goat, iam, elmo or ecto. I think all of these are probable town, to differing degrees.

Why the hell wouldn't you lynch

me

iamausername?

fixed.
Why do you think iamausername is town?

I did have Incog as more town, but Patrick's NK, iam's unease and that Jahudo voteswitch thing he did still has me on edge.

And explain this. I don't see why any of that would make you more on edge about me.

It doesn't seem logical to paint him as shying away from the spotlight and not giving his opinions on the wagons when he just made a bold, ballsy case about someone he knew would backlash against him (and probably draw others as well). As well as not being an easy target, you also aren't an easy lynch, he could hardly have expected getting overwhelming support for his case.

I'd argue that the above could be said about practically any of the remaining players in this game, so I'm not exactly sure why RC's attack on Goat is a reason for you to believe RC is town. Other reasoning might apply, sure, but I don't know about the above.

I'll continue where I left off later.

[Incognito]

Ectomancer: I was referring to my post #418 where I further and better explained my Jahudo-vote. I mean, yeah, I did direct that post at Jahudo, and I probably should have just directed it at everyone if you wanna get technical about that, but I still would have expected it to be commented on if people are actually reading what I'm saying in the first place. Especially if you or anyone else really was trying to figure out the reasoning behind my reasonless vote, ya know?

-~-~

RedCoyote: Ok, I can see what you're saying when you explain it the way you do, and I can see why pops' and Goat's reactions to the suggestion that they might be scum together Today might make you feel the way you do about them, but I still don't think that really explains why them as hypo-scums would feel the need to keep up the charade with each other for most of Yesterday and now into Today. I'm currently filtering through Hoopla's vote counts and there have certainly been a number of legitimate wagons on people throughout Day 1 that could have been pushed and judging from the games I've read of Goat's, I think he definitely has the ability and know-how to put together a case against someone when he's scum that might make people think he's being sincere without him needing to rely on consistently attacking his buddy.

Further, during the times that Goat

has

mentioned things that he felt might indicate possible pairings or groupings of scum, it didn't look forced to me, and I personally could see what he was getting at for the most part. If he was saying stuff like "this person and this person are looking like buddies right now" and didn't explain why or gave reasoning that didn't seem to mesh well, I'd be more inclined to think that maybe Goat really is being dishonest. But I don't think I've seen that as of yet.

[Incognito]

I could also say that you ignored my case on Pops that says he is directly trying to give scummy responses in order to reinforce the idea of a Goat bus after he turns up scum as a way to drag down a town member after his death?

I didn't ignore it though. I already gave my updated view on pops' alignment Today. I couldn't recall you doing similar with your view on Jahudo until I mentioned that I felt like you had ignored my comments about him.

And quite frankly, I don't understand your case on popsofctown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your case essentially boils down to "I (Ectomancer) am leaning town on Goat, pops seems like he's trying to connect himself to Goat, so I think pops is likely scum who's trying to bring down Goat in the future", right? Why do you think that particular explanation makes more sense than some hypothetical pops-town alternate explanation? Do you really think scum would be more concerned about setting up future mislynches after their own flips at this point as opposed to just flat-out surviving on their own? And assuming that your read on this situation is genuine, if you yourself were so easily able to spot something like that now, how successful do you think pops-scum would expect that "tying himself to a town-Goat" to be?

I don't even get how SerialClergyman thinks your post was similar to his. SC, explain?

Incognito you were in that one right? Was a long time ago, I'm not sure.

Nope. I try to avoid Large Games like the plague.

-~-~

Sorry to hear about your hospital situation, McG. I'm eager to see your updated thoughts though. Maybe I'll do my own little rainbow reads list soon too.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Prod iamausername, please. He hasn't posted in 3 days. Thanks.

-~-~

I have no problem with town-hunting since I use it to great success myself, but I'm having a hard time believing some of the things you've said in response to me are sincere.

I think he's been pretty open with his reads despite a low post count and he's put forward ideas that aren't really in keeping with a scum agenda. Plus his case on pops was the best case of the game, imo.

I agree that the pops-case he put forth was pretty solid, but that doesn't explain why that would make him town. Good scum can easily put together a solid case against anyone, so, imo, a solid case isn't a real reason to feel like someone's town. I agree that having experience playing with another player is different, yes, and that might lend you the ability to read a given player better than players who are unfamiliar with said player, but my meta with iamausername suggests that his play here doesn't completely fall in line with the type of play I've seen come from him as town. So I'm curious as to why you feel differently about that. Also, I don't understand the "putting forth ideas that don't fit a scum agenda" thing; he planted his vote on NabNab Day 1 and has so far placed his vote on popsofctown but hasn't followed up yet. NabNab ended up being a mislynch, and pops hasn't flipped yet, so I don't see how you've been able to determine that iamausername's agenda is a town-driven one given that there's simply not much there from him as of yet.

As for the Patrick stuff, yeah, I can see why his final words might raise your suspicion of me, but he specifically mentioned that he got the same feeling about me in Mini 574 - Portal Mafia. I was town in that game too, so uh, yeah. I can pull up at least one other game where a Patrick-town voiced some concern about me while I was town too.

Out of curiosity, why does your Patrick-specific tell apply to me but doesn't apply to Jahudo when Patrick's final words made it seem like he was more leery of Jahudo than he was of me?

@Ectomancer:

I'll read through the case again to see if I can understand it better then. Maybe I've misinterpreted something.

@McGriddle:

You do realize your vote placed pops at L-1 right? Do you have any thoughts about anything else that's happened so far?

[Incognito]

In what manner, by the way, do you expect him to follow up his vote, after you agree he's already put forward a solid case?

Prodding and probing further, giving his updated thoughts with respect to other players and his updated thoughts with respect to pops, continuing to scum hunt. You know, things town typically does. Just because a person puts together a good case doesn't mean they're exempt from the rest of the game, right? I'd argue that it's the objective of scum to put together solid cases and to leave it at that to allow them to marinate on their own.

It's not that his suspicion was particularly telling or omniscient, it's that it's a town-read that I respect and that he died. So it's both worth reflecting on and wondering whether that's why he was killed. There seemed to be little other reason (apart from perhaps reputation - he certainly wasn't looking obvtown)

I thought he looked pretty town especially later in the Day but that's beside the point. iirc, you were the only one who seemed to be expressing some concern about him by Day's end. I agree that it's worth reflecting on why he was killed, but I'm also saying that if you're town, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.

I'm saying here that I think I'm less keen about looking at Jahudo because without a link to Nab there are better targets. He is one of two people that can easily explain Patrick's NK though, yes.

Ah ok. So you did.

[Incognito]

Jahudo has easy target written all over him.

Interesting. I was beginning to think the same thing about pops.

You'd think, if Jahudo was scum, that someone would be attempting to deflect some of that suspicion onto other low-content posters, and that just isn't happening here.

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo. Even if we ignore that, if pops is town like I've been beginning to think he is, why would scum need to push suspicion onto other low-content posters when they could just hop onto the pops wagon just like everyone else seems to have done?

My head says the NabNab lynch didn't happen without any scum involvement at all, and McGriddle was definitely the shadiest hop onto that wagon. And both my head and my gut say pops is scum.

I like how you call McGriddle's jump on the NabNab wagon a "shady jump" but make no mention about McGriddle's current jump on the pops-wagon. Why is that exactly?

Prodding further like this, you mean?

Were you on a flight or something? Suffering from jet-lag? Where've ya been?

No, that's my case on Incog.

You have a case against me? Oh, I must have missed that or maybe you forgot to type it:

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

I'm unimpressed, and I think you're full of it.

unvote, vote: iamausername
Major FoS: Jahudo

Anyone else wanna wagon iamauserscum with me?

[Incognito]

I always use a Major FoS to express multiple suspicions since, unfortunately, I don't have multiple votes. So Jahudo and iamausername are about equal right about now.

iamausername's comment about a case on me basically said that he thinks my posts are bad. I haven't seen him outline why my posts are bad; he's just basically said they are. I'm trying to figure out why.

The flight comment is basically saying that he's been disconnected from this thread for awhile, could possibly be suffering from jet-lag, and must have forgotten the fact that he hasn't posted here in about 4 days, so he's not been doing the "prodding and probing" that I called him out about in my earlier post. In other words, I think he's disillusioned himself into thinking that he's produced much in the way of content.

What don't you like about my post?

[Incognito]

SC: I'm all about producing information information information. Lessee how iamausername and others respond to my vote. I'm just not comfortable with how iamausername mentioned that he hasn't liked my posts but didn't back it up with anything. It's the type of thing that I've seen scum do to lazily not have to make a case against someone who they know is town. I realize that he said part of it was gut, but I want more than that so that I can try and figure out if he's being genuine or not.

And yes, I realized you were being facetious. I was gonna say "the middle one" to copy Mr. Flay but changed my mind.

[Incognito]

(feel free to use this opportunity to vote me though... the no vote thing just looks weird at this point in the game)

lol. Why would you encourage someone to vote you when suggesting that someone should vote in general?

I don't see how either pops or I are easy wagons, but I don't really know what that means for these specific cases. Are we just acting newbish? dropping obvtells?

It's an easy wagon because most people, maybe even everyone besides Elmo has expressed suspicion of pops, so it's not hard to justify being on that wagon.

this^^^
with respect to popsofctown at least. Which is why iamausername's comment about Jahudo being an easy wagon seems so weird to me - it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon.

For what it's worth, I didn't read Jahudo's post #299 as two separate cases, but I think we can all agree that they were two people who Jahudo claimed were pinging his scumdar at that time. Otherwise I can't see why else he'd mention them there.

Iamausername is a

solid

town read for me, no way I'd vote him.

Feel free to elaborate if you wish.

fwiw I feel the need to state that I don't have a particularly strong read on Incognito and would be interested in views either way. If it's not, like, horrible.

He's town, dude!

Not a rainbow but something pretty cool anyway:

RedCoyote:
SerialClergyman:
Incognito:
Goatrevolt:
Jahudo:
popsofctown:
iamausername:
Elmo:
Ectomancer:
McGriddle:

These be my current reads. I'm sure you could figure them out.

[Incognito]

Ectomancer needs a lot more devils smileys.

Hmm, you might be right. 's are people who give me weird alternating vibes for lack of a better way to describe it. Some of their posts seem slightly town-ish while others... not so much.

Slow day Saturday.

[Incognito]

Goatrevolt kinda stole the words right out of my mouth.

RedCoyote: I've been pushing against Jahudo for quite some time now, and I still think he stands a much higher than average chance of being scum. I didn't find more meat in iamausername like you say; I said I currently find them equally suspicious. Elmo has pushed Jahudo for awhile too. Even if we ignore the fact that people

have

been pushing against Jahudo, I really don't get why a situation where "no one standing behind [a wagon]" is a reason to believe that someone likely isn't scum. That just completely boggles my mind. Have you never heard of under-the-radar scum before?

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo.

I don't agree with this. I think if Jahudo really was a so-called "easy wagon", then I wouldn't have to struggle so hard to figure out why it is his name is constantly being thrown around.

What does what you've quoted of mine have to do with what you're saying here? I never said Jahudo was an "easy wagon" -- iamausername did.

[Incognito]

Ok, but that still doesn't explain why Jahudo is likely town as a result. If anything, the whole thing seems counterintuitive to me; I usually think it's

harder

to get a wagon going on scum than it is on town.

[Incognito]

ok fine...

unvote, vote: Jahudo

I am now very very strongly standing behind this vote. Like very very strongly.

If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.

First, I was using the term "under-the-radar scum" in a generic sense to help support the point that I was making towards you - I wasn't saying that I believe that's what we have here since I definitely feel like pretty much everyone in this game has undergone at least some kind of scrutiny, so that means that absolutely nobody in this game has been under-the-radar in my eyes. Even if that wasn't the case though, I haven't ignored a single person in this game - you can look through all of my posts and notice that I've p much touched on anyone and everyone that I possibly could. Heck, if the mod was a player in this game too, I'd probably call her out about some of the scummier-looking of her vote counts too.

Second, I don't think Jahudo is town simply because he isn't being voted. That's simplistic, erroneous, and almost insulting. This is the 21st page. I didn't just drop into this game, scratch my chin, and say I'm officially deciding that Jahudo is now town. I find five players more worthy of wagons than Jahudo. I've been developing my reads throughout the game, and they're still constantly in flux.

I guess I must have misunderstood what you were saying then, and it seems like Goat did too, though he's also arguing a different point altogether. If the above is really the case though, then fair enough.

[Incognito]

ok fine...

unvote, vote: Jahudo

I am now very very strongly standing behind this vote. Like very very strongly.

If we really are looking for "under-the-radar" scum, then why ignore the biggest three that are staring us in the face? Granted, Incog isn't ignoring iamausername, but he is ignoring the other two, especially McGriddle.

First, I was using the term "under-the-radar scum" in a generic sense to help support the point that I was making towards you - I wasn't saying that I believe that's what we have here since I definitely feel like pretty much everyone in this game has undergone at least some kind of scrutiny, so that means that absolutely nobody in this game has been under-the-radar in my eyes. Even if that wasn't the case though, I haven't ignored a single person in this game - you can look through all of my posts and notice that I've p much touched on anyone and everyone that I possibly could. Heck, if the mod was a player in this game too, I'd probably call her out about some of the scummier-looking of her vote counts too.

Second, I don't think Jahudo is town simply because he isn't being voted. That's simplistic, erroneous, and almost insulting. This is the 21st page. I didn't just drop into this game, scratch my chin, and say I'm officially deciding that Jahudo is now town. I find five players more worthy of wagons than Jahudo. I've been developing my reads throughout the game, and they're still constantly in flux.

I guess I must have misunderstood what you were saying then, and it seems like Goat did too, though he's also arguing a different point altogether. If the above is really the case though, then fair enough.

OH.......
MY.........
GAWD.........
THIS..........
POST.........
BETTER...........
GO...........
THROUGH.....................

[Incognito]

Jahudo, I still think the majority of what I mentioned in my post #418 has some validity. If I were to focus on stuff that I haven't liked from Today though, I'd say that I have trouble with your "solid town" read on iamausername - I seriously can't see how

anyone

can be reading him in that way at this point in the game. SerialClergyman cited meta for his reasoning which baffles me - I too have played games with IAUN and have read others of his, and I haven't in any way been able to say that this definitely feels like iamausername-town. So really, the town read of IAUN coming from the both of you makes me feel like it could be contrived.

The other thing that's troubled me is ok, you've stated why you feel pops is scum. That's cool and everything, but I don't have any idea as to who else you're suspicious of at this time. Assuming pops is scum, who could you see as his potential buddy?

And finally, I just feel like your play here reminds me pretty closely of the type of play you put forth in Mini 692 - Boost Mafia where you were scum. I thought I might be having confirmation bias about that, so I never mentioned it but as this game has gone on, I've just still been having that nagging feeling about it. Admittedly, I've never played with a town-you before to compare to but yeah.

That feels like confirmation bias, when you would find someone scummy for doing something OR for not doing it.

Out of curiosity, do you feel like confirmation bias is more likely to come from town or scum?

It is like saying that I am not a ninja because I am using my katana to cut vegetables. I'm still a ninja. I'm just busy cutting vegetables.

This is one of the funniest analogies I've ever read.

[Incognito]

So apparently, sending posts works if you hit submit once -- keep AT LEAST one additional tab open for the forum index since that seems to be reloading decently and then just click into the Little Italy subforum and then this game to see that your post actually HAS been submitted. It probably just hasn't been refreshed in the actual tab that you submitted it in.

/says five Hail Mary's hoping that THIS post goes through.

[Incognito]

I know I've definitely seen SerialClergyman online since his name appears on the online list, but I think iamausername keeps his name invisible. Even so, I know IAUN definitely made a post yesterday updating one of his Newbie Games, so they're both definitely around.

[Incognito]

RedCoyote, there's a HUGE difference between saying Jahudo feels background-ish back in post

418

and saying that in our

current

game-state, nobody feels under the radar to me. You can look back prior to my post 418, and you'll probably notice that not a single person was talking about Jahudo anytime before I mentioned that I was getting a bad feeling about him. So, in effect, I brought Jahudo from being under the radar to the attention of everyone else. It was only then that people began commenting on their own bad feelings about him.

We are talking about the present right? Yes? So as of right now, I'd argue that there is practically nobody who is "under the radar" since everyone has endured at least some kind of scrutiny in this game. Back then, that obviously wasn't the case.

-~-~

I've only been able to skim the last page and a half but uh, Ectomancer, what in the world are you talking about? I originally thought you were kidding about the Elmo thing but you're actually serious?

@McGriddle:

What's your current status? Are you still in the hospital?





Will comment on the rest of the stuff once I get back from a big exam study session.

[Incognito]

Actually, RedCoyote, before this point gets even more confused I think I see the source of confusion:

RedCoyote, there's a HUGE difference between saying Jahudo feels background-ish back in post

418

and saying that in our

current

game-state, nobody feels under the radar to me. You can look back prior to my post 418, and you'll probably notice that not a single person was talking about Jahudo anytime before I mentioned that I was getting a bad feeling about him. So, in effect, I brought Jahudo from being under the radar to the attention of everyone else. It was only then that people began commenting on their own bad feelings about him.

When I was explaining the above, I thought the post 418 that you were mentioning was the first post that I mentioned that Jahudo felt background-ish to me, but it wasn't. I first mentioned that way back in post 166 instead. I was using the word "background-ish" to mean something other than "under the radar" in my 418 - I was basically trying to say that Jahudo's play was giving me the feeling that he was just trying to seem active without actually being active. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.

@Jahudo:

I have done some self-reading in the past yeah but in this case, that's not why I gave myself a ":D " rating here. I did it for poops and giggles.

[Incognito]

Gotta love 3 A.M. reading...

Actually, why are we still having this talk? Looking at the vote count and looking at Red's 539. Where's the hammer, son?

All this without a claim?

SC, I know for a fact that you're not a bad player, so I don't get why you seemingly don't understand what I'm saying with respect to IAUN and cases and the like here.

- My position is that making a good case against someone is not a town-tell. You claim to believe otherwise. Are you really suggesting that in all the games of Mafia that you've played, you've never seen scum make a solid case against another player?

Here's my interpretation of what happened here: IAUN makes some case during Day 1 against popsofctown, you get this town read of him sometime after that, we find out that NabNab wasn't this big bad scum that the majority of us thought he was, IAUN storms into Day 2 and votes pops citing his case from Yesterday, others say "LOL I AGREE" and vote pops to L-1, pops begins trying to defend himself, and IAUN doesn't appear in-thread again to address things that have been said by pops and others (in other words, he completely quits scum-hunting altogether). And despite all this, you still claim that you have this magical town read of him that doesn't seem to factor in anything that he's done since the point you developed this read of yours. Do you really not see why this all looks contrived to me?

Incog has made one 'case' located here which was hardly much of anything - it starts by saying the first two points are speculative then doesn't continue with any more!

Huge Red X.
10 bucks says you didn't even attempt to look into what I said after that.

He slunk onto the Nab wagon late after it was looking like stalling, while supporting it without voting on it previously.

Another huge red X. The NabNab wagon never at any point looked like it was stalling, so I don't understand why you're claiming it was. And prior to me placing my vote on his wagon I was using the time we had in-thread to try and figure both Nab and the other players in this game out. There's nothing wrong with that.

Since his Jahudo 'case' he's done very little, but has had several cheap shots (the one on me saying my iam read was meta alone, the one on iam about iam's non-existant case on incog, switching off jahudo to vote iam without a case WHILE complaining about iam not having a case on him etc etc)

Why do you consider these to be cheap shots? And your interpretation of my iamausername vote is completely off there.
IAUN quoted pops saying that his case against me was that my posts are bad. But prior to that, he said he had bad feelings about me but hadn't figured out why yet. To go from "not figuring out why" to "his posts are bad" is a huge jump if you ask me. That by itself is completely vote-worthy especially coupled with the fact that he hadn't done much of anything else in a pretty big span of time and had completely mis-repped the situation with respect to Jahudo.

-~-~

P.S. Jahudo's last post was, imo, another good example of exactly what pops was elaborating on here. I don't see how anyone playing with 2500+ posts under his belt could really look deep into players giving themselves town reads. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first game that he's seen this done before. I can't tell if Ectomancer is being serious or not but Jahudo sure seems to be.

[Incognito]

Quotes please. As far as I can tell, you made those two points in part one in post 418, then in part 2 in 420 you don't mention Jahudo at all then in your next post at 446 you complain about ecto and I not commenting on your case.

Oh. Wow. Uh, when I said "those first two points are largely speculative" I was talking about the first two points that Jahudo mentioned here:

Here's all the reasoning I could find from Incog on me:

1)

I guess the thing that bothered me about Jahudo's #179 wasn't only the switch in opinion(s); it was also just the way it was done. I made a post asking for McGriddle to link to the popsofctown-game that he kept talking about and then only minutes later Jahudo mentioned the following:

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

The first part where he seems to imply that he didn't know what game it was all along just doesn't seem genuine to me. Considering the fact that my post was made at 5:18 my time and Jahudo's post was made less than 20 minutes after it, I just don't see how he could have

a)

found the game,

b)

analyzed it to see if he could figure out what McGriddle was talking about, and then

c)

change his opinion of him in such a short timeframe. Jahudo, when did you first figure out what game it was McG was referring to?

You had nothing to do with me making my post, and I only knew what to look for after McGriddle talked about "Command Points", so it was my first post after he explained the command points.

The actual game was not that important in the beginning because I thought he could explain it through their memory. So I asked if McGriddle if that game and this were comparable, which was the only part I needed to know if the tell on pops was good.

2)

Jahudo was giving McGriddle a bit of flak and stating that he basically agreed with the case that NabakovNabakov put together against him (McG), and he questioned me about why I disagreed. I stated why I disagreed and then asked McGriddle to link to the game he had been referring to all along. If Jahudo's scum, I could see him trying to ignore the game in question so that he could continue to push the case against McG. I don't think that would be able to happen any longer once the game came to the forefront though.

If you look at that specific post where I question why you disagreed, I was only talking about that one point. So it wasn't the whole McGriddle case, which I've stated point-by-point when I disagreed with something myself. And in this post, I say McGriddle hasn't explained his tell and I asked him to explain it. So I don't see how that's ignoring it. I was just allowing McGriddle to choose his own way of explaining it, whether that including linking to the other game or not. I would think he could explain how the two games were similar without linking to the game, but that would have depended on what he specifically said.

Judging by what you've written, I'm guessing that you thought I was talking about the first two points of my case in Post 418. Not at all, no.

So now it's my turn to play this card - I know for a fact YOU aren't stupid, and I know that you understand a facetious comment because I made one earlier, so I can't understand why you'd read this as anything other than facetious.

I can't see that as a facetious comment, no. I can't even see why I

should

interpret that as being a facetious comment when it followed his start-of-Day comments that said he had bad vibes about me. There's a vast difference between "which finger is the major one" and "Incog's posts are bad".

iamausername, were you joking around when you made that comment?

-~-~-~

I may have a few questions for pops after he responds to RC's question. Consider this a placeholder. As of right now though, I'm leaning towards believing the claim.

[Incognito]

So yeah, the first thing that I thought of after you claimed Weak Doc was the Weak M.D. reference, and I was gonna ask if the "vote: twilight" post was some kind of breadcrumb that you made for us to look towards your twilight posts to see who your Night 1 target might be. Especially since I looked back and noticed that your very last D1 post was directed at GR, the person you now claim to have protected too.

Did you really forget where it was that you came across me prior to this game though? Because I know that if *I* was ever given the role of Weak Doc, I'd immediately be reminded of that game.

[Incognito]

Wow. Just wow.

I will update this by Friday evening. With all these claims out on the table, this game is beginning to remind me of Mafia in Ludd. I've got 3 exams over the next two days that need my undivided attention and a bunch more next week, so I don't have time to think about all of this just yet.
For now,

unvote

.

[Incognito]

Sup guys. I'm back. Gimme a chance to read what I missed real quick.

[Incognito]

Just skimmed the thread real quick, and I see we're mass claiming. That's an easy one to get out of the way real quick - I'm vanilla.

I'll post some updated thoughts once I read everything that's been written in detail.

[Incognito]

Ok, so first the mason claim. I just don't like it at all. It seems all too convenient to me that the two people who were scummiest to me decide to confirm each other as this pro-town mason team. Actually, with the way

SC

kept defending iamausername, I was kinda beginning to think that if by some miracle the two of them were town, that iamausername and

SC

were likely masons. So yeah, the mason claim from Jah/IAUN was completely unexpected. Also, I didn't like the fact that Jahudo used that claim as justification for confirming my background-ish type of read of him. It's not like he wasn't spending most of the Day trying to deny that he was playing in such a way. Having said all that though, I just can't think of a compelling enough reason to lynch one of them Today. So no dice there.

-~-~

Ectomancer's vig claim completely shocked me too. I just don't see the reason for the claim at that point -- it's not like he was being rung up for a lynch or being seriously considered as a lynch target there. Also, the whole throwing dirt on popsofctown's Weak Doc claim just doesn't strike me as the type of thing someone who had inside info on the N1 NK-related stuff might have done at that point - I'd expect some hesitance instead. Likewise, I can't remember Ecto mentioning that he found Patrick suspicious during Day 1 at all. Can I ask someone to point out the justification for why he's untouchable at this point?

-~-~

I'm inclined to believe the McGriddle vig claim here. Maybe I'm underestimating McGriddle's abilities, but I just don't see McGriddle who seems fairly out of touch with this game and is a relatively new player anyway making up what would be a tremendous fake-claim like that. Especially after probably noticing the Ectomancer vig claim. So I think McGriddle's probably town.

That leaves the following people (if we're not touching Ectomancer):

SerialClergyman
RedCoyote
Elmo
Goatrevolt

I'm buying the pops claim, and I thought Goat was town before it anyway, so I feel pretty good about Goat being town here. And I'm almost positive that Elmo is town here too. Unless Elmo figured out how to play a scum game completely unlike his normal scum game, I just don't see him as scum here at all. RedCoyote I've mentioned having somewhat mixed feelings about early on, but then I began developing a town read of him. And SerialClergyman has bothered me for a good portion of the game. Is there any reason we're wagoning RC over SC? I'll try to find the reasoning myself, but I realize we're pushed for time so if anyone could point it out to me that would be great.

I'll put out a vote soon once I read the rest of what I've missed.

[Incognito]

Redcoyote's refusal to be practical at all and do anything but wall post pillowfight with Goatrevolt is not consistent with a townie trying to make sure the best lynch happens today, it's scum trying to paint a picture.

is interesting. SC & Incog, what do you think?

I haven't read through all of the wall posts yet but if that's what's been happening then yeah, I'd actually agree with pops' issue there.

Incidentally, Elmo, what you want is one of these guys:



Ever since I got one, I haven't even bothered to buy those toastered Eggo waffles ever again.

[Incognito]

Seriously? A vig that conflicts with a current claim (unless you think a 1-shot and an even night is likely) who hasn't been able to shoot but will be able to if he lives today.

Just about the only way that makes sense is if Ecto is an SK, which is possible.

vote: SerialClergyman

Would switch to RC to prevent a No Lynch, but I don't like the above at all.

[Incognito]

Question for the class: Why can you guys only see Ecto as being an SK? Why hasn't the thought that Ecto could simply be mafia fake-claiming the role of one-shot vig entered your minds?




Just in case it wasn't clear as to why I'm voting SC: I don't like the two quotes that I pulled up because they don't seem to consider the possibility that Ecto could simply be fake-claiming mafia. I

especially

don't like the second quote because SC goes on to mention that "the

ONLY

way that makes sense is if Ecto is an SK". That quote just seems to imply inside information there - if SerialClergyman is group scum, he might KNOW that the mafia targeted someone other than Patrick last Night (probably Goatrevolt if the pops-related stuff is actually true), so to say that the ONLY explanation that makes sense is an Ecto-SK would suggest that he knows Ecto's not lying about his claimed Patrick-kill and that his hypothetical group kill was somehow hindered last Night.

[Incognito]

The *smart* thing to do would have been to follow my example and claim 1-shot as well McGriddle. When you read "even" in your PM, did it not bring any speculation into your head at all? Even after my claim?

Is this an odd-night vig claim? Also, why aren't you voting anyone right now? Deadline doesn't fall on New Years Eve, ya know...


McGriddle, assuming you're telling the truth about your role, I think it's best that you don't announce who you're going to be shooting Tonight. I think it's likely that the scum have some kind of PR to counteract the things that we've seen in this game (either a Roleblocker or maybe even some un-NKable Godfather of some sort or even a Mafia Doctor if you wanna get fancy). So really, announcing to the entire thread who you will be killing Tonight doesn't do us any favors but it does plenty of favors for the scum, imo, since they're the most informed of the current situation.

[Incognito]

Goatrevolt's been the most obviously pro-town player all game by far. If he's scum here, he's played the game of his life. And I still think pops is town - the Weak Doc claim along with the breadcrumbs and stuff like that just helped solidify that read for me.

The problem I'm having with the Masons (along with the myriad of other problems I've had with them all game) is that prior to Day 2, they really

didn't

have much to say about one another. I've been rereading the thread, and I just don't see any mentioning of one another between Jahudo and iamausername at all. If anything, they completely ignored one another for the whole of Day 1. So this:

You are suggesting that Iam's town read on Jahudo for the whole game was just him defending a scumbuddy, even when he was really open about it with little reason.

...isn't entirely true.

If you notice, it was only AFTER Night 1 happened and Day 2 started moving along that iamausername and Jahudo began calling each other town.

Now, normally I'd be very leery of calling a mason pairing scum because I do think it's a somewhat difficult claim for scum to pull off but in this game where a lot of interactions have been fairly transparent, I could totally see a scum team coming to the conclusion that a Mason pair probably doesn't exist in this game and that claiming Mason at some point might actually be a feasible thing to do. So I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

And SC to answer your question, I'm pretty sure I've seen a game where the scums claimed Mason. I can't remember which one it is right now, but I do remember reading one.

[Incognito]

My last final exam of the semester is tomorrow and then I finally get a much-needed summer break. Praise the freakin' Lord.



Would like Ectomancer to confirm this:

The *smart* thing to do would have been to follow my example and claim 1-shot as well McGriddle. When you read "even" in your PM, did it not bring any speculation into your head at all? Even after my claim?

Is this an odd-night vig claim?

Otherwise, I too am waiting on McGriddle and the claimed Masons as well.

[Incognito]

I'm trying to make sure that all available information is placed on the table right here, right now so that we have the best shot at hitting scum Today. I'm not concerning myself with what may or may not happen to you Tonight. And besides, as I mentioned Yesterday, I'm not even sure if I completely trust your claim just yet anyway.

Jahudo: Nothing at all? Why would IAUN keep up with some of his other responsibilities on-site but not be responsive to you with respect to this game?

[Incognito]

The probability of Goatrevolt being scum here seems insanely low especially with the popsofctown Weak Doc flip. Pretty much the only ways I could see him as scum is if

a)

the scum have a roleblocker that they used to target popsofctown during Night 1 or

b)

Goatrevolt is some kind of Weak Doc immune Godfather. The probablility of our Weak Doc targeting an investigation immune GF seems extremely low to me especially on a Night 1 where the pool of players is much higher though, and similar line of thought makes me feel the same way about the chances of a scum RB targeting pops too. So yeah, couple all that with my town read of him going into all this and as far as I'm concerned Goatrevolt is unlynchable Today.

I still pretty much buy McGriddle's vig claim. I REALLY can't see a him-scum claiming Odd-Night vig the way he did Yesterday especially in the face of an Ectomancer one-shot vig claim. Of the two vig claims, I'm still leaning more towards believing the McGriddle one over the Ectomancer one. If the McG vig claim is true, it does seem to lend support to the Ecto one being true as well, but the Ectomancer vig claim still bugs me a bit. I'm usually strongly of the sense that unprovoked claims generally come from town players, but I still just don't think a few things completely gel together at around the time Ecto decided to claim. So while I'm willing to accept that McGriddle is likely town, I'm not as sold on Ectomancer's alignment just yet.

Elmo is one that I'm still buying as town. I'll probably reread him over the next day or two just to make sure I'm not missing anything, but he just feels like the Elmo-town that I know and love. And I think I've had a pretty good history of reading him to not feel like I'm completely missing something with that read.

The masons still bug me, obv. The one thing that IS giving me some pause though is what Goatrevolt talked about here:

Based on Iam's proposed scum team yesterday of me, Pops, and Incognito (despite how ridiculous that is), I did not expect Pops to die. My guess was that the masons would kill Elmo or yourself. Incognito, if town, is a needed mislynch. Same with Red.

I too would have expected a hypo mason-scum team to kill one of me, RC, or Elmo since iamausername seemed to be building up to a case against pops, GR, and me Yesterday. If a them-scum team really does have a roleblocker though, I would think they'd be forced to use it on a McG-vig and would maybe be concerned about pops being untruthful when he said he'd protect GR -- maybe they were concerned that pops would target someone who was unconfirmed thus potentially clearing them as town too, which would likely screw them over even more. So that's my thinking for why the claimed masons still make sense as scum.

The last piece of the puzzle is RedCoyote. And he's another read that's bugging me right now. Aside from the stuff I called him out on in my post 512, I just haven't seen much else that has made me doubtful of my read of him. One of the things he mentioned Yesterday when switching his vote to SerialClergyman made me think he might have been buddying up to me, but otherwise I've just had a fairly decent town read of him. So right now, I'm thinking that the masons are probably scum, yeah, but I'm not sure if I 100% buy RC as the partner - I could potentially see it being Ectomancer.

And since we know Incog, for one, picked up on pops' breadcrumbing, it would make sense for him to be blocked N1 is Incog is scum, so I'm not going to write Goat off as town.

I only picked up on pops' breadcrumb after he actually claimed Weak Doc - I was mainly looking back to see if some of the things he said on Day 1 made sense given his claim. So yeah.

Anywho, those are my thoughts right now.

[Incognito]

EBWOP: Make that Even Night vig claim* for McGriddle.

[Incognito]

843 is a good point, which just pretty much leaves you as a possible Godfather. And again, I don't think that's very likely.

[Incognito]

McGriddle, what are your current thoughts? Who are you most suspicious of?

[Incognito]

Just looked through zoraster's game and wow, I had no idea that he had BOTH of the masons as scum. I was under the impression that usually when a mason team has a scum mason, it's usually the case that one of the two masons is scum while the other is town. All this time I was just thinking that if our claimed Masons are scum, they were just fake-claiming while holding other possible scum roles instead. I could see why people have been speculating about the possible rolecop interaction now and how both iamausername and Jahudo could both be scum masons. If that's the case, then kudos to Hoopla for making a really intricately designed and elegant game.

I don't know about that vote on Elmo, and for nobody else to join or support it, it makes me think that he is scum starting a wagon getting a start on the Elmo wagon.

RC's vote on Elmo only lasted for less than an hour though. So I don't really see the second portion of what you're saying here about him.

[Incognito]

Still waiting for the case that Jahudo is making against RedCoyote, but I'm having serious doubts that it'll change my mind with respect to who I'd like to lynch Today.

One additional thing that I did notice though was that back around the D2 deadline when iamausername's mason claim began getting called into question, he suddenly became much more active than he had ever been during any other game-state of this game so far. I'm just having a really hard time believing that the mason claims are coming from pro-town power roles. I'd just expect them to be kicking and screaming for someone else's lynch other than their own right now, but I'm just getting a "I've packed it in" type of feeling from them.

[Incognito]

Incidentally:

I haven't convinced myself that Elmo/Red/Incog are not a scum team

How likely do you think this is anyway?

[Incognito]

Long response...

Post #39 - super waffling with regards to Goat. "I don't like it but I don't think it's malicious", what exactly is the purpose of pointing that out? And the further explanation in #84 doesn't make it any better, it really looks like a case of trying to have it both ways. He's making very sure that he doesn't actually accuse Goat of anything, but he's laying the groundwork to accuse him further down the line if it becomes convenient.

I explained that it was more an "IGMEOY" on Goat rather than a full-on accusation. Like I mentioned before, I thought that with a thread only open for one real life day and one that was only on page 2 it was a bit premature for Goat to be definitively calling anyone scum. If it was something that continued regardless of whether or not pops' responses were good, I might have become suspicious of it but imo, that's not what happened, so I didn't bother going after Goat about it. And I don't see how my further explanation in #84 looks like I'm trying to have it both ways - I pretty clearly stated that I thought Goat's interrogation looked genuine, which means I was leaning towards thinking Goat was town.

Post #225 - His accusing Jahudo of lying here really doesn't track right - it's clearly not a lie that would benefit scum in any way, and I think a town Incog who was actually trying to figure out Jahudo's alignment, and not just trying to find things he could use against him, would realise that.

How would the situation I mentioned not benefit scum?

In Jahudo's post where he suddenly backed off of McGriddle, he appeared to have

just realized

what game it was all along that McG was referring to. His "realization" just didn't seem genuine to me given the length of time that it happened between my post where I asked for McGriddle to provide a link to the game and the post where Jahudo came to this "realization". Basically, if Jahudo's scum, he might have known about the game all along but might have deliberately chosen not to reference it in the hopes that nobody would look back to it for cross-reference. When I asked McG for the game though, obviously that was out of the picture. I mean, sure, there's the possibility that Jahudo just found the game completely independently of my question but I wasn't sure if it was likely at that time given the time-stamps of the posts.

Post #268 - The last sentence in this post, why is it there? Surely we all know that it goes without saying that D1 reads are not set in stone, so why is Incog being so careful to point this out?

I don't completely remember why I wrote that, but I think I just didn't feel as confident in my SerialClergyman town read as I did with some of my other reads, so I wrote that so that people were aware that I probably wouldn't be sticking my neck out too far to be defending that read. I didn't agree with the case that pops made against SC at the time, and I did find certain things about SC that struck me as town-ish but at the same time I still saw certain things that seemed off, so I wasn't as certain about SC being town at that time as I was with say Goatrevolt or even Elmo. Basically, I hadn't seen enough stuff from SC that I didn't like that would make me think he was very likely scum and therefore a good D1 lynch.

Post #269 - Incog's super case on Jahudo. "He's a bit lurky and backgroundy", that's it. Oh, and "I accused him of lying earlier, he explained how it obviously wasn't lying, but I'm going to keep on using it as a point against him anyway". This is the case that it was majorly suspicious of Jahudo not to prostrate himself in front of and declare himself scum. This is the case that I did not understand when I said that lurking was a major component of it.

That wasn't my complete case on Jahudo, but I don't see how you're not able to read that as more than just a Jahudo lurker case. Even though my word choice probably wasn't the best, it should be pretty clear as to what I was getting at there when I explained it further - I got the feeling that Jahudo was just trying to look busy by asking questions for the sake of asking them. It didn't look like he was doing anything with the answers to those questions at that time, which is something that I would expect more from scum than town.

And I find it strange that you're using this as a point against me when back when you claimed Jahudo was your mason buddy, you yourself said that if you weren't masons with him, you'd probably think he was scum too. That implies to me that you understood what I and others were getting at when we mentioned that we were suspicious of him.

Post #319 - Wording here: "It doesn't seem likely that a wagon will switch to Jahudo before deadline, and I've mentioned that I agree with the wagon on NabNab anyway." Not "I agree with the wagon", but "

I've mentioned

that I agree". Again, showing that he's overly concerned about appearing consistent in a way that a town player wouldn't be.

This seems more like a semantics point but either way, I've just been attacked in the past for not making my thoughts clear enough, so in order to avoid that, I've tried to be more meticulous with how I do things in order to avoid those kinds of attacks. Considering the fact that you're using this against me now though, it's pretty clear that I may as well just get used to it.

Post #395 - No matter how well they know that commenting on the NK in this way is a blatant scum tell, time and time again, scum still just can't help themselves.

Not sure if this even needs responding to but in every single one of the last games I've been in with Patrick where we've both been town, he's always managed to die N1 no matter what. I found it pretty amusing that the same thing happened here.

Post #449 - What the hell is wrong with SC using a case made on D1 as a major reason for voting pops on D2? Why would that case suddenly become invalid overnight?

Because it looks like a set-up for a mislynch? Because the fact that NabNab flipped town might make a person reconsider their thought process? Because you just plopped your vote on pops and decided to take the rest of Day 2 off without responding to anything else that happened in-thread, which would personally make me reconsider my vote if I was using your case as a basis for my vote? Take your pick.

Post #495 - "it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon." - it doesn't

almost look like

anything; I was very blatantly trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jahudo wagon. He is implying that I was subtly manipulating people away from Jahudo when I was in fact outright telling them "don't vote Jahudo". This is a complete warping of reality with the intention of painting me as some kind of shady criminal mastermind.

I wasn't implying anything; I just wasn't going to definitely say that you were 100% positively doing something like intimidating people off of a wagon since I don't have direct access to your mind, right? I was just giving my read of the situation and since you're now claiming that that's exactly what you were doing, I guess my read of the situation was correct, yes?

Post #530 - Much like the "Jahudo lied about not knowing what game McGriddle was talking about" bit, we again have Incog saying "here is a point against Jahudo, it is not a valid point, but I'm going to use it anyway".

If you're talking about the last line about never playing with a Jahudo-town to compare to, then yeah, I guess I can see how you interpret that post in that way but either way it should be pretty clear there that I was using my past experience with Jahudo to further explain why I had bad feelings about him. So it's definitely still valid.

Post #726 - "It seems all too convenient to me that the two people who were scummiest to me decide to confirm each other as this pro-town mason team." This is some bullshit right here. If we were both at the top of Incog's scumlist completely independently, this would make sense, but the only reason I was there in the first place is because I defended the shit out of Jahudo for bad reasons. It's not "convenient", so much as it is "a logical explanation for the play that made these two the scummiest in the first place".

Actually, that's not the only reason you were at the top of my scum list in the first place, so I don't see why you're saying it was. I mentioned that I didn't like the way you just plopped your vote on popsofctown and how you didn't bother following that vote up. I mentioned how my meta of you suggested that you were usually much more involved as town than you were here. Those are at least two other points for why you were at the top of my scumlist. The defense of Jahudo was just icing on the cake.

In addition to attacking me primarily for defending the shit out of Jahudo, Incog has also repeatedly brought up the fact that Jahudo claimed to have "a solid town read" on me as a point against him, because he could not see a reason for that read. I cannot see how Incog can honestly have considered the possibility that I was a mason with SC, but be taken completely by surprise by my actual partner. That does not stack up in the slightest. This is all done in service of pushing the "convenient" line to throw doubt on our claim, and it is

bull

.

Let's think about this, shall we? All through Day 1, you didn't mention a thing about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Through the first part of Day 2, again, you didn't mention anything about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Near mid-Day you both FINALLY mention something about each other, which just so happened to be solid town reads of one another. Prior to all of that, the only person who claimed to be having a solid town read of you from pretty much the beginning of the game was SC. So why would it be unreasonable for me to think along the lines I did?

Post #731 - His vote on SC, based on the fact that SC doesn't consider the possibility that Ecto is mafia. SC explains this in this post, and Incog... completely ignores this explanation and leaves his vote on SC for the rest of the day. Really?

[/quote]This point I will concede because I probably should have followed up on his response but even after the response, I still felt like he was the most likely to be scum out of all the leading wagons that were around when the deadline was coming up. So I didn't see any reason to change my vote. The only other lynches I would have supported were yours or Jahudo's but that surge didn't come until SC's wagon reached L-1 and since I felt like SC was a very likely candidate for scum if either you or Jahudo were scum, I was completely fine with his lynch.

[Incognito]

...which is why I pretty much dropped that point altogether a long time ago. I only brought it up right now because iamausername used it in his case against me.

[Incognito]

I thought I was pretty clear with who I wanted lynch. I've only been at the necks of the claimed Masons for over half the game. The only people who I've been unsure of at this point are RedCoyote and Ectomancer for the reasons I've previously listed.


RedCoyote, I thought I might've responded to your question previously but , yes, my read of Elmo is largely based on my past experience playing with him. I think an Elmo-scum just has a much more deliberate style to him while an Elmo-town is just much less deliberate. I think he's just less likely to be overly concerned about what people think about him when he's town too. Therefore, his play here reminds me more of the play I've seen from him as town rather than scum. If you need a point of reference, a quick browsing of this game might be worth a quick look through of isolations.

This leads me to believe that Elmo was only pushing on iamausername and Jahudo to get the claim out and hopefully coast to victory. The problem with this point is that Incog virtually mimics Elmo's position here.

If this was the case, wouldn't Elmo have just completely dropped his suspicions of the claimed Masons? I definitely get the impression that they're either at or near the top of his scum list still.

I mean, does anyone else agree with this? I stated several times that I didn't like Elmo or Goat's characterizations of NabNab as some sort of confirmed scum, and tried very hard to get everyone to see Elmo for the manipulative stance he was taking or McGriddle for the far too passive position he was taking.

Well, the way I interpreted your stance at that time was that you basically agreed with the push on NabNab especially when he role-claimed but that you were miffed by the fact that the people who had their votes on the NabNab wagon didn't seem willing to move their votes elsewhere. If NabNab flipped scum though, what would you have thought about the people who locked their votes on?

[Incognito]

Incognito, if the masons are scum, who is their scum buddy?

I could see it being Ectomancer. The thing that's bugged me about him Today is if he really has high doubts that the scum team is me/Red/Elmo like he claimed here:

Incidentally:

I haven't convinced myself that Elmo/Red/Incog are not a scum team

How likely do you think this is anyway?

It didn't pop up except as a process of elimination. I think the alternative is more likely.

...then his decision for who he wants to lynch Today

should

be relatively straight-forward; i.e. he should want to lynch one of the claimed Masons. If he's town, from his perspective this game should read as McGriddle = Town, Goat = Town, and an unlikely scum team of Red/me/Elmo being in this game which would leave two people who he would

know

have to be scum (iamausername and Jahudo) if we assume a scum team of 3 people. So, I would think his best decision would be to lynch a claimed Mason since that would seem to lead to the highest chance of hitting scum Today. And if a Mason

does

flip scum, then his decision for who to kill Tonight would be obvious. Instead he's seemed to be trying to provide reasoning for why we should lynch one of the group of me/Red/Elmo, which doesn't make sense to me since from his claimed perspective his shot at lynching scum would be stronger in a claimed Mason-lynch. Plus, as I've mentioned before, I still have some doubts about his claim anyway.

But I say it is Incog who is their buddy. Gut tells me so and the fact that he has been so weak on the Masons tail.

How does this make any sense at all? Have you in fact been reading the game? Look, I think you're town so if you're making claims like this, this tells me that you really haven't been following a good portion of this game, and I strongly suggest that you read through it more clearly before you begin coming to conclusions like this. Because honestly this makes no sense whatsoever.

[Incognito]

Meh, fine. Maybe Ectomancer really is legit. If so, pwn the crap out of the scum masons Tonight already.

vote: RedCoyote

[Incognito]

Good game all. Even though I had fun with this one, I'm more than happy that it's over. I'll probably have more comments later.

[Incognito]

Thanks for modding, Hoopla.


I remember thinking we were completely fucked when the masons came out and claimed. I was pretty upset about the claims when they first came out, actually - I felt disheartened that after all the work that was put in trying to make people see the "scumminess" of two people in iamausername and Jahudo, they were BOTH just going to be able to claim masons and completely avoid the noose not because their play looked more town than mine or anyone else's or not because they really invested themselves in the game but just because of their claims. It was disappointing. And then when the wagon just switched to McGriddle the way it did, I thought there was absolutely no way he'd be able to get out of a lynch since I thought he would end up claiming Roleblocker and that we'd go along with the strategy that we made in our QT, which didn't seem like it could last very long given the remaining players in the game. When I got back from studying and ish and saw that he claimed vig and saw that people started buying McG's and Ectomancer's vig claims though, I remember breathing a sign of relief, and I knew that I would at least still be able to aim at the people I had aiming at all along and that mislynch opportunities would still be available.

I don't know if this is confirmation bias, but I don't think I ever fully understood why the vig claims didn't get as much scrutiny as they did here. I mean, if I was town, I probably would have expected a real McGriddle vig to counterclaim Ectomancer and push for his lynch but that never happened - he just claimed Even Night vig and didn't seem to even mention anything about Ecto's vig claim at first. I'm not complaining or anything but it was just bizarre to me that nobody really pointed that out. I dunno.

Anywho, like I said before, gg. I had fun playing this one overall.

[Incognito]

Or rather, I don't understand why they didn't get

more

scrutiny than they did here.

[Incognito]

One thing I don't understand is how Incog was (lollerskates) considering me for N1/N2 kills and yet never pushed my lynch. I find that pretty weird.

I figured you would realize my push on you was b.s. since I thought you were pretty aware that I normally have an easy time reading you. And I guess each time we went to Night, I was just paranoid that you'd suddenly turn on me the following Day since you have experience playing with both a town-me and a scum-me and that sooner or later you'd realize this was a scum-me. Since that never happened, I didn't want to stir the waters between us.

Or rather, I don't understand why they didn't get

more

scrutiny than they did here.

cuz everyone was looking at the masons / Red because Goat was pushing them hard? What's not to get?

That doesn't make sense. You can't seriously place the blame on one person when there was like 6 other people who were aligned on the side of the town at the time McG claimed who also didn't spot that. All it takes is for one person to say "uh, hey guys. Why didn't McGriddle ever counterclaim Ecto?" to just get people looking into that direction for responses from McG. But that just never happened here.

[Incognito]

"I guess my biggest fear is for Goat or someone else to look at the pops-kill and say "hm. would it make sense for a hypothetical IAUN/Jah scum team to kill him when they were trying to push the idea of a him-scum during D2?" Night-kills right before LyLo just concern me a lot because night-time WIFOM analysis usually works WELL during LyLo."

Damn. I did say that. I just didn't pay it enough mind. And my next target was RedCoyote anyway

Yeah, I remember you saying exactly what I predicted what would be said. I had to try to put together a reason for why that would still happen, and you seemed to buy into it thankfully.

[Incognito]

Not going to debate that one, but: so what? It just seems pretty weird to randomly be paranoid about me every Night. I think you're one of a small group of people who hugely overrate my play for no apparent reason, which is getting pretty irritating, honestly.

I don't see what's weird about it or why that would be irritating. If two people have a pretty good history of playing with one another (like us) and have seen each other both as town and scum (again, like us), then it should go without saying that meta and gut feelings should play a more substantial role in each player being able to get a good read off the other assuming they're both town. And since you were the town one in this game, not me, and I know that your gut is usually pretty good, then it follows that I should be concerned about the fact that you just might read me correctly here. I don't see why that would be unclear to you.

Well, I think that's a good part of why it happened, at least on Day 3. Day 2 was mostly rushed for time as far as I can remember. I don't think anyone seriously considered Ecto or McGriddle as scum - most people were looking elsewhere. People tend to keep looking where they're looking. It's pretty simple, to my mind.

I'm not talking about Day 3, obviously. I pretty clearly said "when McGriddle claimed", which happened on Day 2. Was Day 2 rushed for you guys? Maybe. But even so, I still think the standard procedure for determining the validity of a claim is to check for consistency. IMO, McGriddle's reaction to Ectomancer's claim did not look consistent with the type of reaction I would expect to come from someone who had a similar town role and that's why I've brought it up now.

[Incognito]

We had also sliced up the town in conversation the previous days enough to make it really unlikely that 5 town would get together and agree on 1 of us.

This is a good way of putting it. After reading the Green room, it seems like all the dead people were right about only one scum each, but never more than that. The same thing applied to the living players too.

Just also wanted to say that I really enjoyed having Ectomancer as a buddy (McG too but he was less involved in the game, obv). It was cool bouncing ideas off of each other in the QT thread and having a few disagreements with one another in the thread. I think it all helped keep me really involved and interested in the game.

I wanted to vote Incog most of the game, but every time I wrote something up it seemed like OMGUS. He framed his case on me really well, so that I couldn't argue the tells but just the conclusion.

I felt bad for constantly attacking you, but I guess that's what ya gotta do when you're scum.

[Incognito]

I was rather pleased to see this going on, especially when he had hoped my kill would have the opposite effect (I think you took the WIFOM cab one stop too far, Rex ).

Hmph, I thought it worked for Glork in SPQR and thought it might have had the same effect here. Then SerialClergyman started getting scarily accurate reads early in Day 2, and I had to try hard to discredit them and him somehow. He never backed down from them though, which I thought was pretty impressive since I really did think IAUN looked different here than when I played with him as town.

[Incognito]

What is weird is what I said was weird, that you wanted me dead at night, yet didn't try to get me lynched - I don't get that. Also, we haven't played together much, I think three times?

Oh, that's an easy one to explain then. Like I mentioned before, it was only Night paranoia (me thinking that you might change your opinion of me at some point during the game). When the Days went on though, and you didn't seem to be looking in my direction, I didn't feel the need to try and cause turbulence between us - I mean, there were plenty of points in-game particularly on Day 2 where we seemed in sync with voting and everything. I figured that keeping things copacetic between us was much less of a risk overall to me and my team in general than just trying to attack you and get you lynched, especially when I had other mislynch options available that you seemed to be agreeing with. I left the attacks of you to Ectomancer since he had already been doing that on Day 1. The net effect was that Ecto and I were never really attacking the same person, and I think that can help a lot in a scum game.

[Incognito]

cuz:

A really good player will try to re-evaluate his or her own opinions at all times instead of just tunneling in on a certain set of hypotheses Day by Day.

and:

A

really good

even vaguely competent player will try to re-evaluate his or her own opinions at all times instead of just tunneling in on a certain set of hypotheses Day by Day.

ftfy imo :V

Meaning from one game Day to the next. After new information would crop up via the lynch or anything else, I just expected to somehow be put under the microscope by you at some point. You seem to be suggesting that I should have expected you to have the same read of me indefinitely. Why should I have expected that?

[Incognito]

Well, yeah, obviously I'll think that during Daybreak but once I'm able to actually read what you're saying as the Day goes on, I'm then able to realize that there's no longer a need to be concerned anymore. It's just the natural paranoia that goes along with being scum; I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

And this all ties back to my own thoughts about your gut - even though you're now claiming to disagree that your gut is accurate (you certainly didn't say that in, say, Crackers, iirc), I happen to believe otherwise based on what I've seen come from you in past games.

[Incognito]

Haha, for me in this game it might have been. I was beginning to think my defense of him was beginning to seem unnatural at certain points.

[Incognito]

It's just the natural paranoia that goes along with being scum; I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

Huh, I don't think I've ever had that. That's kinda weird.

I think it usually only comes about for me when I'm playing with people who I feel are familiar with how I normally play as scum and town. Like say Patrick, Ether, you... but judging from your responses, I guess I shouldn't be as concerned about it with you anymore, eh?

What did I say in Crackers? I'm pretty sure I've never, ever said I'm good at Mafia, because I've never thought that, so..? I mean, I generally avoid saying I'm bad in-game for obvious reasons.

Yeah, it was what Patrick pointed out.

Well, uh, you're wrong. I mean it may be better than the alternative, but the end result is still generally pretty piss poor. I mean, look, where did it get me in this game? SC lynched, nice job. Can you point to anything good in this game? In any other game?

I thought you picked up a town read of Patrick rather quickly here based on pretty much one post he made. Same thing happened in BSG when Patrick and I replaced in as Flask of Pestilence and made pretty much one post also. And something must have went off in your gut about Ectomancer when you first started posting in this game to make you vote for him, no? You ended up switching to NabNab, but I dunno - it was something you never elaborated on. And there was my AoaDA game - you had pretty solid reads on everyone but just got screwed by my terribad set-up. I could probably point to other examples too.

Did I do anything to imply I thought Incog was town? The thing is that I pretty much never think he's townish, so I generally dunno what to do when my read is "meh", and I just left him alone.

Honestly, I think you're just traumatized by how horrific I was in PYP3, and you end up thinking that whenever I don't feel town to you, you can't really come to a good conclusion about my alignment. We haven't been town together in awhile though so it's a tough call. Maybe when we're actually town together again, we can put this to the test. =]

[Incognito]

Ah well. I guess this is like trying to convince a girl she's not fat - it's just not possible. :P

[Incognito]

Well, what else could I say really? I think you're a good player, but you don't have that same view of yourself. I doubt any amount of work I put in right now trying to provide examples to you that show why I think you're a good player will help you believe that about yourself, so I'm not going to waste my time.

As for whether or not you should have replaced out, I don't know. That's a personal call - I never got the impression that you weren't actually trying or not enjoying the game except when you did ask if you should replace. After that, you seemed ok to me. I mean, like Goat said, you really did put more into the game than some of the other town players.

[Incognito]

Incidentally, you were one of the first players to correctly read pops as town. I'm assuming you were using that town read of pops to scumhunt off of his wagon which is the correct play there and that's probably part of the reason you began to come to the conclusion that Jahudo, iamausername, and maybe even SerialClergyman were suspicious here aside from the other factors that made them suspicious to you.