Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Ectomancer]

vote SerialClergyman

Lynch that which you don't understand. It's a time honored human tradition.

[Ectomancer]

Irritatingly, my girlfriend has discovered that I regularly have a piece of information that I consider interesting but know it'll be a hard sell, like statistics that run against conventional wisdom or a random scientific fact. Rather than just keep it to myself, I attempt to push on with the conversation, but in a semi-conscious act of desperation, I start the sentence with 'Interestingly, ....'

I relate this story so that you all may benefit from the knowledge she has sacrificed so much time and energy in gaining, and can easily identify these said boring whims and ignore them safely.

What exactly is this supposed to be, and why was it such an important follow up to your first post? To paraphrase: I talk out of my butt alot. You can safely ignore those instances.

What?

[Ectomancer]

What exactly is this supposed to be, and why was it such an important follow up to your first post? To paraphrase: I talk out of my butt alot. You can safely ignore those instances.

What?

Ecto - you've been brought undone by your own reasoning. If your paraphrase is correct, why aren't you taking my advice?

Allow me to introduce myself. I am not easily deflected, nor am I likely to take any advice that is not my own.
I have only a narrow band of leniency for a lack of clarity. You'll want to pick yours up. I also have a narrow band of leniency for making excuses for yourself before there is even a cause to have an excuse.

On those lines, I agree with Goat's gut.

unvote, vote pops

[Ectomancer]

Goat, the way you left the wagon looked to be as a result of Pops frustration response. I can see why you might back off pressing someone until they break. You said you know the strength of your arguments. Could you break it down for posterity? Thanks.

[Ectomancer]

Well, I have played a game before in which pops was a high PR, and I was also town, and from my experience, pops was a huge leader in that game, and posted a lot of good content. Something I see lacking in here. I think it wise to look into that, meaning, I don't know neccesarilly if he is scum, but he could either be scum or vanilla townie, I can't see him as a PR.

Well at least your buddies know your opinion there after you get lynched today and can't deliver it in your QT

[Ectomancer]

@Goat - I liked your game starter on Pops. I also think that gut reads are not to be dismissed out of hand. Whether his joked were forced or not depends on familiarity with him. Another opinion feels he is being Pops, and so the case boils down to my original description, a good game starter.

unvote

SC I'm not familiar with, he has a unique style that I'm getting used to. I didn't see any disparity between the following statements:

I don't see anything wrong with goat's attacks or choice of words.

You're wrong about me, unconvincing about pops and your self-assured language isn't a scumtell.

Hmmm...

I didn't like his early excuse making, but I don't think he has failed in his posting efforts recently. McGriddle has taken that role, yet, being McGriddle, nobody seems surprised?

Now RedCoyote on the other hand caught my attention with his passive aggressive quote above on SC. The statements don't contradict each other, so Red leaves it up to interpretation as to how damaging that quote is supposed to be. It's an easy placeholder to drop for a later spot on a leading wagon, and I wonder if Red didn't vote SC because he is concerned about being accused of an OMGUS vote.

@Red - give us your breakdown and thoughts on SC beyond a "Hmmm" over a quote that has nothing wrong with it please.

[Ectomancer]

Ah. seeing nothing wrong with his attacks is different to judging whether he's right or wrong in his conclusions.

In effect -

1) You said you didn't see anything

wrong

scummy with Goat's attacks.
2) Goat says that he is attacking you.
3) You said he's

wrong

incorrect about his attacks against you.

Here's how I saw SC's statements from the get go.


I forgot to mention Goat earlier, been busy talking with him and not about him. Red's post 76 looks like another passive aggressive, but on Goat this time. I don't see Goat doing anything out of his ordinary for him, or really for anyone who makes an early case out of very little. Red is an experienced player and should be well aware of that little quirk of mafia, so a lengthy breakdown of what is wrong with a case we all know is a kick-off case is counter-productive and busy work.

vote RedCoyote

[Ectomancer]

@Incog - #62 is a combination response evoker and hand slapper. Though I might agree with you that an incautious townie could make the same mistake, I will also not discount that the guy who says he always plays scummy will do scummy things as scum.

[Ectomancer]

You aren't really contradicting me with that second sentence. I believe any individual towntell is weak, but they can accumulate. Not all townREADS are weak, buy any one town tell is weak if it's not somehow related to mod info.

My last game was won because I convinced the mason that I was town through my actions, and a 3rd town member was "confirmed" simply because we knew where he could have taken actions as scum, and yet he didn't. Once we 3 had decided we were all town, we didn't actually scum hunt. We just killed everyone else off until scum was gone.
It wasn't through individual town reads, it was through cumulative minor reads that painted a great big townie picture. Once that was done, scumhunting was just something we did to end the game faster.

I don't like Iamusername's apparent undermining of a proven technique for sifting out alignments. I don't see how it could be nefarious at this point, but I rather dislike "we can't know anything from that" type attitudes.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, I don't see where iamausername did that, are you talking about pops?

That was indeed Pops. My apologies to User.
What's with the negativity Pops?

[Ectomancer]

Hi Elmo. I thought maybe I said something about you waffling last game. Was it me or Patrick?

[Ectomancer]

All towntells are weak. If there was something that was really a guaranteed way to make yourself look town, scum would do it. In this way, towntells sort of always remain weak. There's few exceptions.

Scumtells happen because people mess up. People mess up, but they can't "awesome up" and do some epic towntell.

...and?

Did you think it necessary to warn people off of believing people to be town based off a single tell? Why would you not then do the same about single scum tells? (not scum slips, there is a big difference) In my experience, there is a much greater danger in someone taking a single scum tell and running it to a town lynch than there is of someone deciding that a player is town off a single tell and letting scum live because of it.

There is no need for warning players off using a means to win, especially when the actual danger you warn of is, as far as I know, non-existant in any actual game.

[Ectomancer]

Ahh ok.

You don't seem very enthusiastic about your vote then.

[Ectomancer]

...

Alrighty. I'll direct it to the proper wagon when the time comes.

[Ectomancer]

Though I might agree with you that an incautious townie could make the same mistake, I will also not discount that the guy who says he always plays scummy will do scummy things as scum.

But McGriddle never claimed that he always plays scummy. He said that his play is just terrible regardless of his alignment. I think there's a difference between the two.

And yet I'm not going to play a game of splitting hairs with you.

I don't mind Elmo's vote on Ectomancer there - the one thing that I was beginning to notice about Ectomancer's play was that his vote over the past few pages was moving about a bit too loosely for my taste. I don't know if this is typical of Ecto though since I've never played with him before.

Elmo, any thoughts on any of the other things that have happened over the past few pages?

I'm sure Elmo will be pleased you approve, despite his not being able to recall or state why it was there. If you believe a vote was needed for "loose" voting, then why wasn't it your own?
I'd like you to defend that "loose" allegation. Even though my first vote could be tossed as occuring during RVS, I definitely provided a reason. My second vote was definitely a productive one that supported Goat's starting case and helped provide the legitimate pressure for a gaugeable response. My 3rd vote, as you know, also has case backing and has recieved at least partial support in it assertions from other players.
All well reasoned and deliberate, nothing I would describe as "loose". Pardon me if I take this as a bit of sniping from you.

[Ectomancer]

Wow. I couldn't believe I had never played a game with you Incognito. I searched 55 pages of Google, and you were right. The closest we came was I replaced out of a role in Mafia 88, and you later replaced in for a different role.
I don't really pay attention to how often I move votes in games. I can guess the pattern goes something like this: Random/Semi-random vote, vote on first valid wagon, vote for the case you believe in. That's day 1. Whether there are more steps after that depends upon events and information.

[Ectomancer]

All towntells are weak. If there was something that was really a guaranteed way to make yourself look town, scum would do it. In this way, towntells sort of always remain weak. There's few exceptions.

Scumtells happen because people mess up. People mess up, but they can't "awesome up" and do some epic towntell.

...and?

Did you think it necessary to warn people off of believing people to be town based off a single tell? Why would you not then do the same about single scum tells? (not scum slips, there is a big difference) \

In context, i was asked what I thought of a player. Since I gave only positive feedback, I felt it necessary to say that all towntells are weak so it doesn't sum to a strong town read.

Ok, context may have been missing.

Yeah, 55 pages of you and I together in a thread, none of them mafia

[Ectomancer]

@Goat - I liked your game starter on Pops. I also think that gut reads are not to be dismissed out of hand. Whether his joked were forced or not depends on familiarity with him. Another opinion feels he is being Pops, and so the case boils down to my original description, a good game starter.

unvote

This is scummy, I don't like that (was rereading/isoing)

So I guess I'd vote Ectomancer for his halfway support of goatrevolt's case. It's fishy. Seems more like calculating what wagon he wants to be on or off of then continuous feelings about my alignment.

I don't recall playing with you much, if at all, so let me fill you in on my personal ego trip. If I have any skill at all in mafia, it is in getting a game started. It can be done by creating the situation yourself by going on the offensive, or you can support other talented game starters to make it happen.
In short, Goat never intended this to be a "serious" case though serious reasoning was behind it. I never intended it as a "serious" case, though serious reasoning is behind it. As a case, it served its purpose.

I waffled over having to deal with expected attacks over this next part, but I'll also reveal a second, personal layer of reasoning for my decision. When a player kicks out a starter case, you have two options. You can support their "case", or you can oppose what they had to say.
In this case, for me, who the player was that kicked off things was as important as what they had to say.
I have a problem with Goatrevolt. Not a personal problem, a game problem. He may have similiar recollections, maybe not.
I've played a number of games with Goat, and it seems we've gone head to head nearly every time. I've never known his alignment. Ever. I've never spent as much time waffling over someone's alignment. I remember having a vig shot that I wanted to use on him, but never could. Not because I didn't think he could be scum, but because

I had no clue

and so was forced to leave the judgement to others who felt they did know.
So I made a conscious decision to let him go head to head with other people instead and see if it makes a difference. It at least is allowing me to be more objective about the material. It also allows me to stay "chill".

Primarily I posted that to head off any "buddying" posts concerning Goat. This doesn't mean I'm not going to call him out when wrong, but you can expect a different treatment of Goat by me. Goat himself isn't going to like it and this could very well bring about the exact situation I intend to avoid. Ce 'est la vie. I plan to win, and this is my strategy for dealing with a player I've been unable to read in the past.

[Ectomancer]

I appreciated Patrick's breakdown, and not meaning to sound critical of Goat's, but I think creating a cheat sheet of where suspicions converge is not really desirable. It may make it easier to lynch, but that's not as good an idea as it sounds. Better to make it difficult. Scum have to make more noise that way.

[Ectomancer]

What I mean by that is you've spent the bulk of your time going back and forth with me and yet you don't even believe me to be scum, or at least you aren't pushing for it.

I'll have to concede that I'm not doing a very good job here. I should definitely have some sort of bankable vote. Is it my fault that I liked the answers that McGriddle and SC both gave me? XD

Conceding you aren't doing well isn't really a point in your favor.
What does having a bankable vote have to do with spending your time on Goat? You mean it would provide a better backdrop while you banter with the guy you don't think is scummy?
What does McGriddle and SC have to do with you and Goat?

Vote: Elmo

on the back of NabNab's post 100. I'd argue she's the last player to make a "real" post, and there's really nothing there that gives it substance. I'm not opposed to dropping a vote like that in principle, but I am opposed to it when there's both been no record of your perspective in the game and you've also failed to give more insight when asked to do so. It's nice that she showed up the second someone asked about her, but what little the response has to offer is steeped in a previous game's meta.

This is bankable? Elmo's slightly annoying playstyle thus far? So, like this is the case you would ride to lynch? I don't buy that.
No, this is a placeholder. This is being busy and sweeping the Goat interaction under the rug.

[Ectomancer]

The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

No, c'mon Jah, think about it - I'd never be this anti-town if I was actually scum

You should just stick to being vague and mysterious.

[Ectomancer]

Jahudo is likely town.

[Ectomancer]

Mind control.

[Ectomancer]

Nabs 187 makes sense to me. I'm also apparently in the dark as to why Nab is the flag we are running up the pole.

192 nicely disarms 189

@Goat - I can't really complain that Red isn't giving the answer I am after when I don't know exactly what it should be. But basically, he side-slipped the answer to why he felt the need to spend several posts breaking down a starter case he didn't think came from scum. He only gives reasons he didn't do

something else

not why he did what he did.
An

honest

answer would have been maybe "I don't know", or "I thought it would be helpful to clarify that case for those who didn't know", or I guess a number of other answers

that actually addresses that question[/u] would be adequate. But when I ask "Why did you feel the need to totally breakdown Goat's non-scummy starter case?", I am definitely NOT looking for "Oh, well my vote was going somewhere else, but those guys weren't scummy haha."

In other words, he has twice posted a reply, ostensibly to answer that question, but his answers belonged to a different textbook.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

I re-read 159. I think I skimmed and skipped over parts that actually appied. My Father-in-law's funeral was yesterday and so I hope I can be excused. (A fantastic send off for an amazing guy. He was a nuclear physicist who worked for General Dynamics and was a Grand Commandant of the Knights Templar and Grandfather to my children)

[Ectomancer]

Trying to catch up with stuff. I'll try to keep this brief since this page had a bunch of walls already.

Mind control.

I'm gonna need you to elaborate on this a bit more. Because I got the same feel Patrick did in his #196 about Jahudo's post #179, so it surprised me when you suddenly mentioned you had a town read on him. What

specifically

is it about Jahudo's posting that made you feel he was town?

Because he seemed to be the one who saw the failing in declaring me to be town after 129. All I saw from supporting posts was "NK Ecto, he's town!" until Jahudo's rain on the parade.
Sure, if you think someone is town, then it can be a good idea to state it (as I did with Jahudo), but it also can be a bad a idea to so blatantly advertise who the town has cleared in their mind as it paints a target on their back (aside from protection WIFOM of course).
I thought he did just enough to kill that without being obvious about it or going too far.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: Because he seemed to be the one who saw the failing in universally declaring me to be town after 129. Didn't mean to imply it was a bad thing individually, but it needing tempering and he did it in an appropriate manner.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer:

I see. I thought your town read of him might have stemmed from his post #179 since your comment about him being town followed only directly

after

that. Jahudo made comments about the (near-)universal town stuff on you a page earlier.

See #204. When I read and post, if I see something worth commenting on, I do it, then go back and start reading where I left off, even though the game might have already progressed a couple pages.
When I got to #179, my bias was already set. I see nothing wrong with Jahudo's deciding to get to the root data rather than speculate and then stating what he found. I didnt read the game personally. I'm still inclined to comment on what has been said about it here without looking for it, so why would it surprise me for Jahudo to do so intially?
Also, given the description of the game, whatever vehicle Pops used there, even if setup speculation, then McGriddle could reasonably expect him to find a vehicle to take an active role in this game as well.
I don't see the todo about Jahudo or McGriddle.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, what's with the non-vote?

Are you bothered?

[Ectomancer]

I didn't ask if it mattered, I ask if you were bothered.

[Ectomancer]

Yes, I'm bothered.

You two are beating around bushes. What are you getting at?

He's clearly nervous. Why is he nervous?

[Ectomancer]

post count has always been a terrible metric of actual contribution.

What do you think of iamausername & Jahudo's level of contribution?

I feel like Jahudo's contribution has been decent, but there might be some bias there considering that most of the things he has posted have somehow involved me or my case on McGriddle. I think username's contribution has been subpar, but I would rank it close to that of McGriddle or SC. On the other hand, I think RedCoyote has had a significant impact on the game with a smaller number of longer posts. My problem with post-count isn't even so much one of quantity over quality as it simply being a poor metric even for measuring quantity. It can give just as much weight to 1 word as it does to 1000.

You haven't mentioned anything about what your rainbow has told you.Care to share?

vote Elmo

on the Adel syndrome scum tell. Adel loves posting charts and statistics. You know when Adel is town because those charts and statistics

are actually of use

. When scum, the quality and pertinence drops dramatically. Primarily it is busy work (and with flashy colors!) made to look like contribution, from the player who has made none.

SC, I'll ride till the last day without placing a vote if I feel it doesn't belong somewhere. I do appreciate you calling attention to your anxiety though.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer:

Can you explain your Elmo-vote a bit more? You mentioned that posting charts and graphics seems to be a tell that shows when

Adel

is scum, but do you think that same tell applies to all players?

<grinds his teeth> Where in the

hell

did I say posting graphs and charts makes Adel scum? Adel is mentioned for those who know Adel (which is 90% of you) to understand

EXACTLY

what I mean. Charts and graphs have nothing to do with being scum. They can be useful. But making

busy

charts and graphs that let you stick around because people think you are "working" is what makes someone scum. It is just doubly bad when Elmo hasn't made a contribution and puts this up as his offering of effort.
It demonstrates a lack of real analysis.
I love Pops comment "He wasn't doing anything before, so why should he start now?" A -1 to Pops.
Yeah Pops, he wasn't doing anything, and when it finally was time to offer up his insights, did we get them? No, we got a player post count. A freaking player post count. And the result? "Some people posted more than I thought, some people posted less". Wow. I'm shocked at that result.
-1 to Nab for attempting to act as though it was a legitimate work with his "post count <> contribution" comment. Really? We had no clue that what people say in their posts actually matter. Contact Mafia News because we have a breaking story in this game!

So when its all said and done, we have, what? What do we have people? A conversation designed to be nothing more than a conversation. We're past the first couple pages if you hadn't noticed.

[Ectomancer]

@Incognito - I took a poll that asked how people begin their basis in mafia. It seems the majority said they start out with the assumption that everyone is town and then find scum. I start out with the assumption that you are scum until proven otherwise. SC doesn't get into trusted status just because he posted my alignment. His action doesn't jive with his statement either when he appears concerned about a non-placed vote from that player. So my concern with him is, why? It wasn't an item I would expect him to be focused on. It didn't make sense in context to me for that to be his concern. It seemed almost a contradiction.

[Ectomancer]

So my concern with him is, why? It wasn't an item I would expect him to be focused on. It didn't make sense in context to me for that to be his concern. It seemed almost a contradiction.

Rubbish. I read you as town on one post. If you do scummy things, that read will deteriorate. Sitting there doing nothing without a vote on anyone counts as a scummy thing. (Patrick can take note of this too.)

And aside from being a possible scumtell, no matter what your alignment it's DEFINITELY useless.

I disagree. Remind me to take this up with you in an MD post after this game. I don't want to have to dance around an "ongoing game" post restriction.

[Ectomancer]

@McGriddle: You know, in all that time you spent typing color tags, you could have been playing the game. I mean, your list functions perfectly well as a list. Elmo only color-coded so his votecount would make sense. Do you see why I occasionally feel that you're being disingenuous?

A plain list would only have given relative position, not relative suspicion. Without the colors, you might assume that all the way up to Incognito could be "town" or that all the way down to Elmo was "scummy". It offers far more information on individuals the way he did it.
Why do I feel this attack itself was disingenuous?

[Ectomancer]

A word being Affirmation? I think you might have gone over my head

[Ectomancer]

That's a better post. Confront them head-on, not that indirect, beating-around-the-bush grouching about a colored list.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, are you angry that dimes are smaller than nickels? I am.

Jw.

...well...I can only guess what you might be getting at.
If I were to hazard a guess at its meaning and formulate an answer, I would say that there is a vast difference between confronting your accusers head on and taking ineffective shots at their own "contribution".

I have a rainbow list of my own, but its a scummy to town list, and hot to cold

As you may or may not know, I happen to like posts like this. Some players (I think Ecto was the only one, there may have been someone else), have stated that you shouldn't "reveal your hand", as it were, by posting all your townreads too flagrantly. I think that's nonsense, personally, but it's more a political disagreement than anything else..

Individually it isn't an issue, but for the group it is. One person posting a list is useful, a 2nd and 3rd and 4th is detrimental. But yes, it is yet another view that is more like a guideline than an actual rule and subject to the vagaries of opinion.
But, since McGriddle felt the need to do it anyhow, I support his decision to go whole hog and put it in colors, putting more differentiation than a plain list would include. That's why Nab's criticism fell flat. The effort actually contributed information, not just adding pretty colors.

Your critique of the list contains a better, valid point and analysis. If it isn't clear where he arrived at his opinions, it would be useful for him to tell how he did so.
Something does stand out for me though. I don't recall such a a direct inquiry into where Patrick and Goat got their opinions for their lists. Can those who are pursuing McGriddle with that line of thinking explain why McGriddle is unique in that respect? Why didn't you depose Patrick and/or Goat on some of the unexplained opinions in their lists?

[Ectomancer]

As for Nabakov, it's half gut, half logic. I play a lot with my gut and then back it up with logic, at least early on. I thought Nabakov was scummy from the get-go when he tried to tear apart my pops case by attacking a small part of it he found wrong, but yet also agreeing that pops was suspicious and pushing different reasons on pops. It's just weird for someone to push suspicion on a player and yet try to refute arguments someone else is bringing up against the same player.

Odd Goat. For you this event signals scum, while for me you've given a good case for town. If you are building an honest case on a player, you don't take crap supporting evidence simply because its inclusion seems to bolster your case. It is important that you stomp out the crap that can only serve to damage its credibility, not to mention that it isn't an honest assessment when you've decided to be convinced yourself about the merits of bad arguments.

[Ectomancer]

Your critique of the list contains a better, valid point and analysis. If it isn't clear where he arrived at his opinions, it would be useful for him to tell how he did so.
Something does stand out for me though. I don't recall such a a direct inquiry into where Patrick and Goat got their opinions for their lists. Can those who are pursuing McGriddle with that line of thinking explain why McGriddle is unique in that respect? Why didn't you depose Patrick and/or Goat on some of the unexplained opinions in their lists?

From what I recall, Pat was pretty descriptive about his suspicions. I remember specifically answering questions of his. I'd contend that I am going after Goat for his unexplained opinions. His conditional reads are anti-town. He's already admitted to them being useless (at worst), but I think they're actually hurtful in the sense that they are a sort of shield for him to sling mud everywhere. When he says X is town and Y is scum based on a flip that hasn't happened, it's like every opinion he's giving can be washed away without recourse. I think it's unhelpful, and, if we had the time, I'd have liked to get into it a bit more (and I still probably will later on in this post).

---

Fair enough. Also I think you did a much better job with explaining the Elmo case than I did. If I have a failing when explaining myself, it seems to be when I find something to be "self-evident".

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, are you angry that dimes are smaller than nickels? I am.

Jw.

...well...I can only guess what you might be getting at.
If I were to hazard a guess at its meaning and formulate an answer, I would say that there is a vast difference between confronting your accusers head on and taking ineffective shots at their own "contribution".

What? Getting at?

I was seriously asking whether you are angry that dimes are smaller than nickels. It just doesn't make sense. Why would the US do that? It makes a serious difference when I'm fishing for change out of my wallet. The dimes get me closer to the hershey bar but the nickels are more prominent. It's rather infuriating.

Lol, next time I get attacked for posting fluff I'll say it makes other people post content so my karma is good.

[/quote]

That's pretty funny actually. It seemed like your attempt at a humorous way to say I was splitting hairs when I criticized Nab's inneffective attack on McGriddle's contribution and then turned around and supported his direct confrontation of his accusers. Dimes are smaller than Nickels.

and no...it's always been that way. Why would I be angry that the grass is green?

[Ectomancer]

and no...it's always been that way. Why would I be angry that the grass is green?

Ignoring answers to questions? Oh yeah, you know what you are.

[Ectomancer]

IioA is an excellent tell, but everything matters in context. In context of all of Elmo's play, taken together, I don't think it was a scumtell for her. If the previous posts were "Quit lurking Elmo" or "<a bunch of people with equal involvement in a game where contribution levels are a total nonissue>" or "<Elmo avoiding direct questions>" (she always seems to comply afaik) then the same exact post would be an issue but that wasn't the case.

This is bullshit. The fact that most of us ignored Elmo's antics in no way excuses him from providing the same input that the rest of have. He doesn't need a frckin personalized invitation!

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

This is also bullshit. "Oh, I don't think he knew what he was doing, but he quickly came up with an excuse for doing it!"
Well blow me down! There is no way it could be busy work if he came with a reasonable reason for it after the fact!


Elmo needs to be lynched. Barring that, I think Pops would not be a distasteful lynch either. I don't like Incognito's defense of Elmo either. It isn't a defense, it's an

excuse

.

[Ectomancer]

The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.

Plenty. This isn't Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

I don't think he actually replied in them. Of course, I didn't do more than scan and see that it looks like he is simply trying to be a jerkl.

[Ectomancer]

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

This is also bullshit. "Oh, I don't think he knew what he was doing, but he quickly came up with an excuse for doing it!"
Well blow me down! There is no way it could be busy work if he came with a reasonable reason for it after the fact!

Actually, that was pretty much how I saw it as well. What exactly is your theory for what happened here? Elmo as scum decided to post a postcount chart to somehow appear active and involved, but failed to forsee that he might be questioned about conclusions, therefore was forced to invent conclusions after the fact to present to the town? I don't get what you're arguing at all.

I doubt he didn't think about it at all, but also didn't overly worry about the possibility as he didn't prepare anything more than "I thought some were posting more, but they weren't, and others were posting less, but they weren't."
Apparently some seem to believe that was a valid contribution and more than busy work. Ironically, McGriddle's rainbow he received grief over would have been the type of list that would have garnered less suspicion from me actually. At least then a sort of stance would have been taken, and he could have been pressed over the why's, something that he definitely lacked. Remember when pressed about his stance on me? He couldn't remember
In short, Elmo can be held to exactly nothing today.

[Ectomancer]

I was reading Patrick's hammer post during the night, not entirely settled with it.

[Ectomancer]

Probably. What townie doesn't check to make sure they didn't die before posting the next day? In doing so he would see Patrick is dead. Assuming he did that, why would he then say Patrick's hammer post was unsettling?

What it means Mr. Agressive is that I was not settled with his analysis posted during the night, and though a bit surprised to see his town alignment, I'm still not settled with it (which, if you will kindly check your dictionary is a far different idea than being "unsettled")
This is in large part a quick reply from work goaded by Elmo's (as usual) reasonless vote on Jahudo. I think it obvious that Patrick's instincts can be off, but I also don't see how Elmo can take his speculation of a scum pair with Jahudo/Nab, have Nab turn up town, and then because Patrick was wrong about Nab, Jahudo is now scum, I'm guessing now it was regardless of alignment? So though not assured by his opinion, I don't see how Elmo can jump to the opposite reasoning simply because Patrick was wrong on one opinion.

[Ectomancer]

@Goat - I decided something about Elmo last night, or rather speculated. I'll let you know what it was later. Basically I'm back on my perch there.

So though not assured by his opinion, I don't see how Elmo can jump to the opposite reasoning simply because Patrick was wrong on one opinion.

Do you really think Elmo is voting Jahudo just because Night 1's NK listed him as his other top suspect? How familiar are you with Elmo's play exactly?

Perhaps when Elmo grows tired of me placing words into his mouth he will speak up on his own. Perhaps that time will come when I decide to vote him over the words I placed into his mouth. At some point he will have to spit them out and replace them with his own.

[Ectomancer]

You tread on dangerous ground with your talk about "how proper bussing is done".
It is ridiculous to suggest that bussing could not have occured when 4-5 pages were spent railing on a player for their random vote. A random vote is *never the cause for a lynching, so to suggest Pops was ever in danger of being lynched, and therefore actually bussed is ludicrous. I believe the elment of risk there is being exagerated.
Your interaction made me actually more suspicious where suspicion did not exist before.
Gut tells me Goat would not play that way though. At least, he wasn't doing it to setup a bus that culminated in his vote on Pops here. It isn't a clear tie.
Not being able to read Goat is different than knowing what he does (in general) so my other gut tells me, if anything, Pops is who is making that interaction suspicious. A nice tactic as scum is to setup a town "scum buddy" to fall with him, and if my suspicion wasn't pinged by Goat, then Pops is the culprit.

vote Pops

Here's my indirect approach at a Goat read. If Pops is scum, that analysis indicates a town Goat. If Pops is town, it says nothing about Goat that I can think of.

[Ectomancer]

Ack, I kinda got ninja sauce on my chin..just a little bit. I'm at work and answering phones and solving problems and am a little slow.

[Ectomancer]

Pressure always increases the danger someone will be lynched. The more they are forced to defend themselves, the more likely they are to slip up and say something wrong. Scum Do Not Wish to Post, so pressuring me D1 created danger, even if it was impossible to cut off discussion and wagon me based purely on the RVS stage tell.

This is a load of hooey. I don't know any veteran players who can't talk or handle pressure. If we were to believe this tripe, we could simply lynch from the bottom of the post count list.

Why is the interaction suspicious? Would you have me vote Goat or believe in a Goat-Pops pairing Ectomancer? I have the same read SC and Incognito have of Goat, and the one you seem to. How is my play more consistent with scumPops townGoat than it is with townPops townGoat?

I already explained, but I'll explain again with an analogy. Drowning people pull down others along with them. The interaction is suspicious because while reading it I became so. TownPops wouldn't be out to create that impression, but scumPops who might get Goat lynched after him might.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer: You want to lynch pops to maybe get a read on me? Missing is any reason why you think pops is scum, just that if he's scum then I look town by association. You draw the conclusion that one of me/pops is scum with no underlying logic to make that conclusion with and then suggest that it's not me so it must be pops. Why must one of us be scum?

Actually I did provide independent reasoning. Why did you skip over it? You obviously read it...

Speak up if you didn't understand something rather than denying it exists.

[Ectomancer]

Let me try it again for you Goat. You're little interaction with Red and Pop's over bussing was a load of cow poo. Where did the stink come from? Was it you? I don't think it was, and it wasn't Red.
The bussing accusation was leveled at you, not Pops. Yet Pops is the one to come in and give that double team on Red. The whole string of posts there just smacked of false bluster with bad talking points.
Once again, was that you I'm smelling?
Why would Pops be suspicious? His posts reinforce the notion that there could be a link between you. Is there? If not, why would that impression be there? Did you try to give it? Why would a town Pop's try to give that impression? Town Pop's wouldn't.
You don't see it? It's not supposed to be seen. It's meant to be felt by a tugging on your gut based upon that interaction. Only thing is, I buy your meta reasoning and I've played with you enough to think I know that much. So I don't buy the bussing argument. I

do

buy that scumPop's would want to play up that supposed link while publicly dismissing it.

So, let's flip this Goat. You tell me instead why a townPop's would post in a manner that would create

more

suspicion?

Now, you can disagree on whether he did it on purpose if you want (or whether you think he has the skill). In that case, you don't see what I see. But don't tell me I don't have a reason just because you don't see it.

[Ectomancer]

1. I propose Pops' behavior was suspicious
2. It was suspicious because scumPops is more likely to do it than townPops.
3. scumPops would defend a townie.
4. Townpops would not defend a townie because it is suspicious. See (1).
5. Why is it's suspicious? see 2-4.

unvote, vote: Ectomancer

for circular logic, and seeming to be the most insincere of the votes on my wagon. That weird fluffery stuff about Elmo earlier wasn't impressive either.

Next time try not making such an obviously bullshit breakdown. 3-5 you pulled out of your ass, definitely not out of this thread

I'll chat about Elmo when it is time to chat about Elmo. If you want to try chatting about Elmo, then speak to Elmo about his non-chatting yourself.

@Incognito - over this? Oh geez, so sorry. Hey, why did you give a reasonless vote on Jahudo like Elmo did there?

vote jahudo

:goodvoting:

vote: Jahudo

Goatrevolt, I'm not sure I understand your Ectomancer-FoS. Explain?

As an aside, killing Patrick during N1 is soooooo last year.

After that, you didn't make any PbP, or anything else that I saw needed commenting on. You talked at Jahudo. I already stated that Jahudo is on the town side for me, so yeah, I pretty much ignored Elmo and then your vote too. Was there some fresh exciting breakthrough you made? I sure didn't see it.

[Ectomancer]

@pops - Your strawman is so far out there that I don't even know what you are talking about. You are scummy because you defended a townie? That's news to me.
You're scummy because in a situation where there was no suspicion before you and Goat's spate of posting, your intervention lent credence to the idea that there

could be

some sort of bussing going on. TownPops wouldn't do that on purpose.
You already had good pressure going on you, and so a drowning man approach at that point would make sense. You do a sloppy defense, reinforcing that bussing idea, then when you turn up scum, people are predisposed to lynching Goat and testing the idea.
So. When you turn up scum, rather than supporting the bussing idea, I'm pre-emptively saying that I think it far more likely to be a townGoat than bussing going down.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer: I was referring to my post #418 where I further and better explained my Jahudo-vote. I mean, yeah, I did direct that post at Jahudo, and I probably should have just directed it at everyone if you wanna get technical about that, but I still would have expected it to be commented on if people are actually reading what I'm saying in the first place. Especially if you or anyone else really was trying to figure out the reasoning behind my reasonless vote, ya know?

Listen, not to be mean, but do you really think that touchy feely meandering 2 paragraphs that said roughly "@Jahudo-I don't get good vibes from your voting pattern" was something that anyone stopping by should make extra special effort to comment on?
I could also say that you ignored my case on Pops that says he is directly trying to give scummy responses in order to reinforce the idea of a Goat bus after he turns up scum as a way to drag down a town member after his death? I'm in fact rather pissed that instead people are talking about the back to back voting from myself and SC, rather than what we actually posted! In addition, I

was

at work at the time, composing a response and helping customers on the phone, and so

was

ninja'ed despite there being about a 6 minute delay in posts. Believe it or <something really rotten>
Goat at least, once again, I can understand, because despite us not getting into anything head-to-head, he is still following his standard practice

of being on the opposite side of most views

, and it is common for him to unvote a wagon I join that he is on, or refuse to join a wagon I support.

[Ectomancer]

@Incog - no you didn't get it quite right. What we had was nothing, then interaction that generated suspicion. Some would say that suspicion means that there is bussing going on. I don't, for reasons I expressed. I say the suspicion came from Pops, Pops who was sliding towards lynch. Its a case of protesting overmuch with poor arguments.

And assuming that your read on this situation is genuine, if you yourself were so easily able to spot something like that now, how successful do you think pops-scum would expect that "tying himself to a town-Goat" to be?

This clearly shows you didn't get it. The "obvious" part is that based upon that Red/Goat/Pops interaction, there is a bussing going on. The

not

obvious part unless you are familiar with Goat's habits, which he has adhered to this entire game, is that he wasn't bussing.
I think that without my analysis of the damn thing, we would indeed be listening to more of Red attacking Goat through Pops. Its an argument that doesn't make sense. I'd like to see a good scumGoat argument, but I'm not going to slant my analysis that way on purpose. I told you already I'm breaking him down through other interactions, and right now I see neutral unless Pops pops scum, then I read town, not scum like Red, and right there Incog is your evidence of how successful he is being. It wouldn't be hard for me to simply agree with Red and keep a suspicion on both Goat and Pops. What use is it for me to go out of my way to hack in between them with analysis?

[Ectomancer]

Not actually sure if this is needed, but prod avoidance post

I'm spending the weekend waking the pool from winter and getting ready to go swimming...after I finish the rest of the yardwork

[Ectomancer]

I think his point is that where there is smoke there is fire, but you people are barely even rubbing sticks together judging from the vote count on Jahudo.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, but that still doesn't explain why Jahudo is likely town as a result. If anything, the whole thing seems counterintuitive to me; I usually think it's

harder

to get a wagon going on scum than it is on town.

Which is relevant when you're at L-1 or L-2 and can't seem to tip the wagon over the top, not when a guy has no votes at all and you say "See? We can't get a wagon going, and its hard to get a wagon going on scum, therefore he must be."
I think that the fact that nobody is willing to commit is as valid a reason to lean town as any other reasons given for presuming someone's alignment. In fact, I would expect that scum would keep up a bit of sniping while focused somewhere else, otherwise they wouldn't have a smooth segue into later suspicion on him.

[Ectomancer]

Jahudo having no votes currently is irrelevant. Incog and Elmo were on the wagon and I've expressed suspicion of him. SC has him in his top 4, etc. It's not like Jahudo has been under no suspicion this game.

The argument isn't that Jahudo is scum because there isn't a wagon on him.

It's that saying he's town

because there isn't a wagon on him is faulty, and furthermore using that as a reason to get on the pops wagon is ridiculous/scummy.

Just highlighting your phrasing here to illustrate a possible point of contention.

I think the vote count says it all,

popsofctown - 5

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

iamausername - 2

(Incognito, Elmo)

Ectomancer - 1

(popsofctown)

Not Voting - 2

(Goatrevolt, RedCoyote)

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it.

I see "hard to argue Jahudo as scum", not "Jahudo is town". And I don't think that is splitting hairs at all considering people can certainly have 3 identifiable states in a mind. (scum, neutral, town)
Also, I don't think I need to create a quote pyramid to say that he spent at least a couple more paragraphs talking about various slants of attack on Jahudo and if I recall, he didn't spend that many words just saying that a lack of votes provided his reasoning.

I don't see the issue there for two of you to be beating your wings over it.

[Ectomancer]

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?

False argument. There are 10 players in game that are not Jahudo. The point isn't about

your

vote. The point is about

10 votes

that "just happened" to land somewhere else.

I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

Excuse me, whoever you are, but I would appreciate it if you would tell who exactly is using Elmo's account to play this game. I think its a load of crap to pretend you are someone you aren't. Make a new account if you are trying to avoid meta, but using someone else's account without revealing to the game that you are is, if not cheating, at least totally dishonest.

[Ectomancer]

It's hard to argue Jahudo as scum when no one is really standing behind it

This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Obviously if I suspect two people the same, I can coinflip where my vote lands and not prioritise either, right? I dunno how saying that I really want to kill one of those two isn't standing behind my views?

False argument. There are 10 players in game that are not Jahudo. The point isn't about

your

vote. The point is about

10 votes

that "just happened" to land somewhere else.

I don't think any case that rests on activity can be taken seriously in the faces of players like McGriddle, Elmo, and to a lesser extent iamausername, all of which I think have been significantly more aloof than Jahudo has

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

Excuse me, whoever you are, but I would appreciate it if you would tell who exactly is using Elmo's account to play this game. I think its a load of crap to pretend you are someone you aren't. Make a new account if you are trying to avoid meta, but using someone else's account without revealing to the game that you are is, if not cheating, at least totally dishonest.

Having the same problem Incog....site choking

[Ectomancer]

Stuff like this shouldn't count as a post. I'm not gonna pick out every bit of your posting that is just clarification and not strong content.

That was naer the top of page 2. Go and look at the other posts next to me and they line up pretty much the same content-wise: iamausername's 27, Red's 28, pops' 29, incog's 30 and patrick's 31 are mostly small questions and clarifications. I don't see player reads and legitimate accusations until a little bit later on. Yours in 29 just looks like another Random-vote stage post, so you really shouldn't be talking to me about what should count as a post on page 2.

I concur.

Pop's, you know this is just scrambling, couldn't you try something better than weaksaucing a page 2 post? (and it really wasn't fluff for page 2 as it was probing with a question) You should at least be making random proclamations about players so we can WIFOM them to death when you flip

[Ectomancer]

Bits have been added to some quotes for hopefully obv reasons.

Overreaction/Buddying with Goat

amounts to

Goatrevolt's [weak sauce] reasons are independent of Nabakanov's alignment tbh. He's still hung up on the early game joke and thinks I was lying about not noticing an unvote, and doesn't like when I post fluff.

Wrong doesn't equal scum. GR doesn't scumhunt the way you would but he's trying as hard/harder than you are. Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?

This is a first for me. pops coming to bat for the player that just voted him, clarifying why it is Goat finds him scummy.

It turns out that this makes it easier to defend himself, which you snipped off when you quoted him. It's easy to defend yourself against Goat's stated reasons, it's hard to defend links someone's drawn partially based on what

they

did. Alongside that, he thinks Goat's town and expressly said so, and I don't see any reason presented to think it's buddying rather than genuinely thinking he's got it wrong. If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

Thanks for providing another example of what I'm talking about with Pop's, except, of course, your interpretation differs from mine. You say "I don't see it" and I say "Right there it is". Also, before you get this part wrong too, buddying is not the same as establishing ties.

[Ectomancer]

Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?

Yet you've pointed fingers everywhere

but

the Nab wagon. Not very genuine today are you?

[Ectomancer]

No, you quoted Red quoting Pops and illustrated an example of the Pop's/Goat link that was built by Pops. If you want a trite little term for it, you could call it "bussing a townie" or a reverse bus.

[Ectomancer]

Oh yeah, on "Elmo".
Yesterday I said he wasn't being him and voted.
Last night I decided he was probably playing the way he was because he is vanilla trying to draw a nightkill by being "mysterious"
Today, after that little Freudian slip that revealed you aren't actually Elmo, I don't know what to think, except I dislike dishonesty, even as a meta thing. It does explain my day 1 read on you however, and renders my night speculation baseless and useless when it was based upon Elmo being Elmo.

Requoted for those who missed that little gem:

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

[Ectomancer]

Yeah. I think someone else, a friend of his, is using Elmo's account to play this game. Hydra maybe? It would be common courtesy to reveal it, if nothing else.

[Ectomancer]

[ What, did this mysterious other somehow forget that Elmo's posts were actually made by them?

]

Durhh. One wonders how you figure things out without being told specifically if you are unable to make inferences from events around you

[Ectomancer]

In conclusion; WHAT?

In conclusion, I like people to be upfront about things like that. Explanation/Summary what? It means I scrap what I think I know about Elmo and play him as somebody's alt and forget about "What Elmo would do".

[Ectomancer]

I like Goat today. We should still hop on Pop.

[Ectomancer]

I had to look at the wiki and that's what it said. It also said alternate doctors are normally told that they are simply doctors.

I'm also aware of the convenience of his target being Goat.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty then, time to break things down:

NabakovNabakov - 7 (Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername, McGriddle, Incognito, Patrick)

popsofctown - 5 (Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

Going to make some assumptions here. Nab's wagon didn't go down without scum on it. Pop's wagon was already loaded up with scum, or the wagon tasted too bad too fast for them to jump on, but I am going to bargain at least one there. Scum on the first wagon could have been hesitant to also join the 2nd wagon.

First wagon we eliminate Patrick, Goat, and Iam.
Second wagon we eliminate Jahudo, Iam.
Elmo and Ecto go into a grab bag.
That leaves us with SC and McGriddle as components of both wagons, and oddly enough in the same positions as well on those wagons. I'm tempted to point out a scum in SC choosing the good wagon to push, and the partially inactive McGriddle to come along later and back it up as it grows.

That of course depends upon the truth of what's been said. I'm going to

unvote

, but I reserve my right to continue doubting Pop's. The

only

reason I am not keeping up the push to lynch him today is that it smacks of too much effort for a scum stunt to be scummy, then breadcrumb, then be scummy some more so you can pull out your fake claim. Smacks of it, but doesn't mean he wouldn't.

Jahudo and Iam is also interesting to be trusting, but I tend to believe it myself because of my Jahudo read than Iam.

Also something else to take into consideration. I wasn't sure how or when the best time would be for this, partly because 2 different people could assume they were responsible for 2 different reasons and make unfounded proclamations. However, with a Doc in the open, the other possibility, if existing, now knows for certain and so could recognize their folly of assumption. I don't know however, if it would be a good thing to speak out and I hope they have the wit to make the proper play themselves. If none speaks, then we will take the obvious alternative with a grain of salt, but being a weak Doc instead of a regular one actually clears up at least one assumption that could have been mistaken.

To wit, I killed Patrick. Alas, I do not possess the means to dispose of another. (1-shot) I regret the results, but after I was declared town early on, I unjustly began to fear for being NK'd. Elmo

was

my target, but as I said, I was poring it over and decided instead that he was vanilla trying to lure the NK with his mysteriousness and left him alone.

I nearly got myself into trouble with Goat the next morning. I wasn't thinking I guess because I had killers remorse, but I think my claim here will also help explain this little comment:

I was reading Patrick's hammer post during the night, not entirely settled with it.

Basically trying to justify being wrong.

[Ectomancer]

Pop's claim was

way

too convenient for my tastes. Hello? Yes, I knew scum's kill didn't go through,

but so did they.

A scum in trouble like Pops could very easily have figured there is a Doc or roleblocker out there and then made that fake claim to draw them out while he was going down. That claim, in fact, made it MORE suspicious to me. Yeah, I know scum didn't make a kill last night and then magically a Doc claims the next day. How nice!
You people have a distressing lack of suspicion sometimes...

I think Elmo or McGriddle would be fine. Elmo especially fine.

[Ectomancer]

When I decided that despite my misgivings, Pop's actions and explanations

do

actually fit events.

Not

revealing what I knew at that point would have simply been me being stubborn about my problem with Pop's. I try not to let my ego get in the way of the proper thing to do...most times. It's still a really damn convenient claim though

[Ectomancer]

The thing I want to hear most, right now, is why Patrick was a good N1 vig target.

This, still.

I briefly touched on my dissatisfaction with Patrick at the beginning of this day. Any other player in this game would likely get a more elaborate answer, but I'm underinspired to put in the effort for you. You can be satisfied that the reluctant hammer vote is dead and I can be satisfied that is enough for you. You can argue "scum don't hammer" with someone else.

[Ectomancer]

His scum list was my town list.

Patrick, where's your scumlist at at the moment?

I'll give my worldview since I'm thinking about it. Nabakov is my best choice for scum atm, but with this day cooking nicely I'm still not in a rush to put him at lynch-1. Jahudo is the other main person I'm getting scummy vibes from -- I could see him as scum with or without Nabakov. RedCoyote I've bad a few bad vibes from but probably need to reread him since I've been glossing over some of his posts recently. On one or two occasions I've thought he may be using his thing with Goat to look active and avoid more important stuff, but again I'll really need to reread him to see if that's justified or if my feeling about him is really just that I disagree with alot of what he's saying. I saw a possible connection to NabakovNabakov too, but want to avoid building too much of my view of this game around the idea that Nabakov is going to flip scum.

This:

* PATRICK:
I don't know if its his style, but Patrick kept his random vote on Goatrevolt for most of today without finding him suspicious. It looks like he calls Goat town in Post 146 but he doesn't unvote until 258. This non-vote has allowed him to push cases without taking ownership or possible backlash that might come from a vote with holes in it. By that I mostly mean the Nabakov wagon, which he started to agree with when it was at L-6, in Post 146, but he doesn't say he'd vote or not until Nab's at L-2 and Patrick wouldn't want to be the L-1 vote. It could be stalling if Patrick didn't have more reasoning to be on the wagon since 146. And that's what I'm trying to read into with his posts and the evolution of the wagon.
@Patrick: What about the Nab wagon looked better by 196 that wasn't around by post 146.

Then he started to complain about the bloodthirstyness of the town, that things were rolling, and he didn't see why there was this great push to hammer.

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

This is also bullshit. "Oh, I don't think he knew what he was doing, but he quickly came up with an excuse for doing it!"
Well blow me down! There is no way it could be busy work if he came with a reasonable reason for it after the fact!

Actually, that was pretty much how I saw it as well.

What exactly is your theory for what happened here? Elmo as scum decided to post a postcount chart to somehow appear active and involved, but failed to forsee that he might be questioned about conclusions, therefore was forced to invent conclusions after the fact to present to the town? I don't get what you're arguing at all.

Anyway, Nabakov's claim. I'm leery of lynching claimed poweroles but I'm leery of the claim too. I also don't like how little he's posted since claiming, after saying he'd fight the wagon like hell. I don't see him scumhunting, and I think a town powerole would be at this point.

RedCoyote... I'm struggling to agree with anything he says, but he's seemed more genuine to me as the day has gone on. He sounds like believes what he's saying.

I feel much worse about the way Ectomancer has pushed Elmo.

I'm having extraordinary difficulty figuring Incognito out. No idea why.

If Nabakov does flip scum then I'm not entirely sure if Jahudo is a buddy, though I still find him to be a shady figure in this game. If they are then Jahudo seems incredibly blatant at this point, trying to start a wagon on pops like that. I won't speculate anymore about pairings until we see whether Nabakov is scum or not. I'm happy to move forward with a Nabakov lynch, so

Vote: NabakovNabakov

Then we get to the hammer post. So he sees the situation with Elmo the same way as I saw it, but then pretends he cant figure out why it is scummy after explaining it...
Then, despite seeing it the way I saw it, asking me for the link to scumminess, he "feels much worse" about my push on Elmo. Say what?
And then, despite complaining about the pressure to lynch earlier, AND being engaged with me in a conversation on who I believe to be the better lynch, he doesn't wait and goes ahead and hammers. wtf??? After his case against Nab was primarily that some of Nab's comments were disingenuous?

That doesn't jive at all with his earlier expressed supposed desire to hash things out.

And of course, Nab's was town.

Not a hard choice for a kill.

[Ectomancer]

I'm getting bad feelings from this McGriddle thing as well. People seem to be wanting to lynch him because of a lack of activity and that the deadline is near.
This is why deliberately waiting until 3 days before deadline to claim is a bad idea. If you decide not to lynch, the ramrod lynches happen...

[Ectomancer]

My Elmo choice isn't going to happen, and I understand the why, so no point going into that. A no lynch would be stupid, so also not an option. The rest of you are either town to me or have a claim that it is better to believe/leave alone, or have not garnered my attention and so sit neutral.
I'm going to have to relinquish some of my town reads until more evidence presents itself, but don't have the time before deadline for more than a snap reread.
The closest I have to a "confirmed" town is you, as if Pops is town, so are you, and I already expressed that if Pops is scum, I think you are town. So, scum me up, I will probably follow your lead and reads. I'll be reviewing your latest arguments today as quickly as possible.

[Ectomancer]

It makes sense if you think about it and aren't trying to save your own skin by calling me an SK.

[Ectomancer]

I don't like playing game the mod. I'm also waiting until the mass claim is complete before doing the balance inventory. However, I've been aware since his claim that at least some thought processes would be this. It ran briefly through my own mind:

[quote]In my mind, the only two legitimate possibilities are Ecto 1-shot and Griddle mafia, or Ecto SK and Griddle town.
[quote]

Goat's gut reaction was that McGriddle was sincere. I rather felt the same for the timing of his posts as well. I'm not going to go for his throat just because his claim makes

me

look bad. I don't get the motivation he would have as scum for this, except to make me look bad, but it puts him in a spot and its not exactly what you would call an ass saving claim either is it? There has to be more glamorous ones he could have made.

[Ectomancer]

Does anyone have experience with toasting waffles? I put a waffle in the toaster and it kind of fell apart and then I had to turn the toaster upside down to get the pieces out

Ectomancer, you're up! Explain how you don't feel you have been waffling in this game

Haha, actually I'd say I was decisive before waffling due to being burnt.

[Ectomancer]

Some of you live under heavy atmospheric pressure...

The *smart* thing to do would have been to follow my example and claim 1-shot as well McGriddle. When you read "even" in your PM, did it not bring any speculation into your head at all? Even after my claim?

ffs...

[Ectomancer]

We've got to lynch. Returning to the quick review of voting on town wagons, SC was the unexplained common denominator.
While scum could also have targeted Patrick, that's a long shot coincidence. The odds point to Pops being town.
Goat is right in that Masons don't seem to make much sense in this setup. Rolecop investigates one mason, the other claims and boom, two for one investigate. Or say the weak Doc protects one, boom, two for one clearing. Given that with the claims, the town seems overpowered, that little twist to the mechanics would just make it that much

more

town slanted.
I agree with picking one at random McGriddle.

vote SC

[Ectomancer]

Incog, why would you want to doubly make sure that I needed to be roleblocked tonight? Given McGriddle's activity though I do wonder whether he turned one in at all.

[Ectomancer]

I'm still a tad irritated about it too. There was no reason to know I even needed to be blocked and had someone thought about their claim more, it wouldn't be an issue.

[Ectomancer]

Based on a 3/9 mix, I'd say we are in LYLO.

[Ectomancer]

Yes, odd night. If McGriddle or I were to die, it would reinforce the others claim.

[Ectomancer]

I'm still a tad irritated about it too. There was no reason to know I even needed to be blocked and had someone thought about their claim more, it wouldn't be an issue.

I'm taking this as a claim that you're an odd night vig. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, odd night. If McGriddle or I were to die, it would reinforce the others claim.

[Ectomancer]

I think its fairly firmly established that Goat is town. McGriddle is town. So the scum group is the following:

Elmo/Red/Incognito or 1 of that group plus Jahudo/Iam. Given the speculation that masons could have been role cop bait, I would say that the roleblocker lies in one of the first 3 and should be our target as it will allow me to hit one of the masons tonight and either condemn or clear the other.

[Ectomancer]

Given the speculation that masons could have been role cop bait,

I don't follow this.

If the masons are scum masons so that the rolecop would receive that result, then the roleblocker would not be among them.

[Ectomancer]

I haven't convinced myself that Elmo/Red/Incog are not a scum team, but I did decide that if we have to look for a partner for the masons, we can't do it in LYLO and will be best served by lynching one of them first, even if it means we leave a roleblocker to do their thing.
I see Goat feels Red is the most likely scum, but I'm not seeing why it couldn't be Elmo, or Incognito for that matter. Elmo seems at least as likely as Red could.

[Ectomancer]

Incidentally:

I haven't convinced myself that Elmo/Red/Incog are not a scum team

How likely do you think this is anyway?

It didn't pop up except as a process of elimination. I think the alternative is more likely.

[Ectomancer]

I am biding my time. I have 2 scenarios here. Either Elmo/Incognito/RedCoyote make up a scum team, or Masons + 1 make up a scum team. There are a couple different ways I can approach that knot here in LYLO.
If I can make up my mind that the mason claims are scum, then the choice is easy. Lynch one of them today, try to kill the other tonight.
If I am unable to convince myself one way or another, then choosing the likeliest scum from the Trio is not a bad choice either, as if it is all 3, no problem. If it is Masons plus 1, I still have a 33% chance of hitting.

Mathematically, it would make more sense to choose from Elmo/Red/Incog, at least if the odds of the masons being scum are only 50/50. But I don't feel that its 50/50, I think it is definitely slanted more towards the mason claims coming from scum, both in that the role cop was already dead when they claimed, and that even if a role cop did exist, it would only enhance their mason claims. It also grinds my sense of balance to have not one, but two roles in game that would automatically confirm two other town roles. (Weak Doc protects 1 mason, confirms both. Role cop returns mason, mason confirms their alignment is confirmed to each other)

Now, I've already said the exact same thing, but there's some pretty numbers and thought process to go with it. It's nicely reasoned out and indicates to me that we very likely should lynch a mason today. It's also constructed on claims and setup speculation. So do I go with that assessment? Which I think is pretty good, but still...mathematically hitting the Trio still would leave a decent window of success that I can't discount. I also can't discount that Jahudo was an earlier town read while Elmo most certainly is not. In the meantime, until you withdrew your hat, I wondered how close you would get to a Red lynch without me.

[Ectomancer]

@Incog - I think you'de better hold your horses there cowboy. "It didn't pop up except as a process of elimination. I think the alternative is more likely." is a far cry from, in fact, is an entire state away from "has really high doubts".
What it means is I didn't sit there during the course of the game and go "Hmm, it looks like Incog, Red, and Elmo could be scum buddies together." The fact that I didn't consider it before doesn't mean it isn't possible. (duh)
It still isn't as ridiculous a concept as you are trying to portray. I'm not going to be herded into the decision you want me to make simply because you belong to one of the two groups I'll be lynching from today and lynching the other would save your ass. I'm not worried about saving someone's ass today. We get scum or game over.
My focus has been turning over the mason claims and the setup, followed by the math of the situation, which you are ignoring in your little assessment of how I should be acting. There is one

fact

. Scum is definitely in the Elmo/Incog/Red group, so don't give me this bullshit about how looking there is likely to make me a buddy with scum masons.

[Ectomancer]

vote redcoyote

Let's see what we got.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm, actually I think that Incognito hammered there.

[Ectomancer]

lol what? Ecto wasn't gambiting with his vig claim... he was counter-claimed by his own scumbuddy.

Ingenious

LOL I totally was. I was rather content with my 1-shot claim and then McGriddle comes out of nowhere with that even night vig claim and I was like wtf? From there I had to just start scrambling until it settled itself out, and then I was so confined in my options that you guys definitely caught wind that I was just sitting there.
It was a good game. I don't think town can feel too badly.

[Ectomancer]

There were definitely times when we were in trouble. I would never have planned that double vig claim. Luckily the way it went down (me being totally surprised) made it seem more natural I think.

Elmo, I would hazard that you never saw me as town because with you specifically, I did not try to appear town, and did things to make our relationship in game shaky.
Patrick was definitely not my idea of a kill choice and you were the only one to pick up on that.
I thought Goat did a fine job with the "evidence" that was available. His logic all made sense.

Day 3 was toughest for me because I knew that by killing Pops, we had the town divided up between factions with myself on one side and Incog on another and McGriddle in the middle able to do anything this game (apparently) and get away with it. We had also sliced up the town in conversation the previous days enough to make it really unlikely that 5 town would get together and agree on 1 of us. It then became a matter of letting things flow to a vote and I was maintaining enough activity.

I liked the bankable deadlines. I think games only extend past a certain point because they can and it gets stagnant and eventually people come in and vote who they were going to anyhow. Interestingly enough it seems that Elmo was the only one concerned about banking time and it would have helped at the end when the scum team was just trying to bide its time.

[Ectomancer]

Well, subtle reinforcements of ideas, phrasing designed to appeal to specific individuals, things that aren't meant for you. You weren't in the emotional state to be receptive to what others perceived as town. My plan was not to keep you around to endgame, so I didn't make the investment. Sorry if that reinforces the idea that people think you are better than you think you are.
If you need an example, I think you can probably see in game where I decided that I needed to cultivate RedCoyote to my "faction" and began trying to influence him favorably on my behalf by reinforcing some of his opinions and such. Prior to then I was nearing putting him on my "bad" list, but that wouldn't have divided the town the way I wanted, which is maybe an answer too. I wanted to divide the town, and you weren't in my faction.

[Ectomancer]

Elmo just be trying to cheapen my win