Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Jahudo]

This thread smells like birthday cake

Vote: SerialClergyman

[Jahudo]

A question for all; if you were scum, how would we tell?

I <3 bussing.

Other than that, I don't really know, apparantly I am a bad scum though so this being an experienced game, you would probably know by the end of the day whether I was scum or not lol.

Is that part of your playstyle that you mention in Post 22? I don't think I've played with you before.

Also, your post count seems to indicate you're not a newbie so why would you put down your play?

[Jahudo]

I've seen pops joke around and give fluff posts farther than this into day 1 as town, so his posts 7 and 10 aren't out of character. In any case I think his qualifier in post 10 (voting Goat for not denying wife beating-joke) is just a riff on Goat not denying wife beating-joke. It doesn't look forced to me.

@pops: what's a "brickwall game"? Who did you hope you weren't OMGUS-ing, or was it a statement to hope that you wouldn't OMGUS people in the future?

--------------

Goat's case might have legs with the OMGUS suspicion. It was oddly timed and could use more explanation.

pops was a huge leader in that game, and posted a lot of good content. Something I see lacking in here.

Pops was already a leader in the first few pages of that game? Is that a fair comparison this early into the game?

[Jahudo]

I don't see how Ectomancer's post 129 is a town tell, or gives anyone the good feelings. It looks like something he could easily talk about as either alignment, since its mostly in generalizations about how he'll play. It means zilch to me, but I don't see anything from him that looks suspicious.

RedCoyote doesn't look passive-aggressive to me. The contradiction he thought he found on SerialClergyman looked more like he was trying to get a better understanding of those two quotes, rather than try and sit on the fence. Up until his Elmo vote I think he's was posting more reactionary than proactively, as in forming his posts around responses to other people's posts, which could benefit him if he was scum having a hard time forming original content.

I don't agree with Nabakov's McGriddle case over the "bad scum" and "only non-invitation" points. They looked like normal responses, nothing to gain or lose. But I don't see how that translates to Nabakov being scum.
And I do agree with Nabakov on how Elmo hasn't explained his position on anything yet despite his votes. I don't know if this is normal Elmo-play or not.

McGriddle didn't mention the circumstances of the game where pops was a vocal leader. That would be important when trying to argue that pops is "lacking" something here. @McGriddle: Is pops right about the circumstances of that game? Was it breakable?

popsofctown is aware of his fluff meta, and I think he could use it as scum to try and hide behind this null tell. I don't mind some of his jokes, as long as he doesn't use it to deflect from attention. Post 99 looks like deflection. I think he tried to redirect Goat's feelings about him into the fluff posting tell.

unvote;
Vote: popsofctown

[Jahudo]

@Incog, Patrick: you've both said you don't like Nabakov's case on McGriddle, but I think you've ignored a part of it that he also repeated just recently. And I don't see where the other votes have given reasoning yet, so no one has explained why this is bad:

I was telling everyone that my reasoning behind it was not so we knew who had/didn't have a PR, but that because of this he is more likely to be scum, and less likely to be detrimental.

Which is, how did McGriddle go from thinking pops was either scum or Vanilla townie, to thinking pops was more likely scum?

And McGriddle also hasn't defended the accuracy of this tell, which has been called into question. (pops claimed he was a leader in another game because it was breakable; it might not be a comparable situation) So no, I don't think the Nabakov case is inherently wrong.

-------------------

Jahudo, why did I post fluff in Mafia Jailbreak?

A quick re-read seems that it was for starting discussion. The difference in this game is that discussion is well on its way, but your image of goatrevolt looks like its trying to wedge his focus.

-------------------

@McGriddle: when did you think you had originally voted pops?

I thought I had already done this but I didn't, Unvote, Vote:Pops

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: That Nabakov quote should be:

The one thing he's taken initiative on was 59, where he claims pops can't have be a power-role. At first, this just struck me as some sloppy analysis, but things really get interesting in 80, where he sneaks in a declaration of pops' scumminess when the post in question had only dealt with PR status regardless of alignment.

[Jahudo]

McGriddle, you still haven't explained why this is a comparable situation to the other game. Pops said that game was broken, which explains why he was a leader. If the game, and not his alignment, caused the tell then how is this a comparable situaton?

What's my connection to Nabakov? I disagree with all but one point on his McGriddle case--the one that ties into my point--and I agreed with him that Elmo wasn't explaining his positions. The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

[Jahudo]

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

---------------

I can still get behind the idea of finding Elmo hard to read, when he doesn't explain what he's thinking, but Nabakov's method is questionable upon a second look. His question here:

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something. Care to elaborate on... anything?

Looks like a setup to confirm his suspicion in the second post here...

Well, I'm clearly not happy with Elmo's contribution so far. An unaccompanied random vote I can handle, but staying entirely out of discussion until somebody specifically asks for his opinion is just bad form. Even when he gives his opinion, as with his vote, there's nothing to support it.

No matter how Elmo would have responded or not responded. He asks Elmo to elaborate on his opinions then says Elmo is only contributing when people are asking him to elaborate on his opinions.

If you're trying to prove your theory, it would make more sense to actually wait and see if Elmo contributed on his own. What wold have been the acceptable response?

[Jahudo]

Jahudo had previously been ok with Nabakov's pressure on Elmo, and I don't see specifically what was wrong with what Nabakov did here. He called Elmo out then later expanded on what he dislikes, what's the "setup" aspect of this and why is it scummy?

I never said I was okay with Nabakov's pressure on Elmo. But yes, post 179 was the first time I noticed it was wrong.

I interpret it as Nabakov stating that Elmo is questionable for only providing content when asked a question. Nabakov asks Elmo to provide content, making any response from Elmo seem more scummy because it will prove that Elmo only gives content when asked a question. That doesn't seem like the town way to prove a scumtell.

When Jahudo posts discrediting the town read on Ecto

That wasn't my intention, and I made sure to say in that same post that I didn't have any suspicions on Ectomancer. I just did not understand how that one post was pulled out to give a gut town read, because it was null to me.

[Jahudo]

@Incog: Thursday after McGriddle mentioned it was a game with "command points", so I did a quick msutils.net search and found the game. I had been previously going between them to try and find out if someone's memory was bad, or if they were providing bad information.

It wasn't until McGriddle explained why the game was broken that I decided to go searching for it and confirm that point myself. That helped me see that both were right, in a way. Pops was a leader but it was under different circumstances (ie: pro-active on setup strategy is different than pro-active on scumhunting).

-----------------

A more correct answer would have been that I entertain myself and laugh at my own jokes and become ever so pleased with myself.

Alright, that does sound true actually. If its for fun, I can see you doing it as any alignment. But that doesn't mean there isn't a way to pick out town and scum motivations through your fluffposting. I had a bad feeling that you had put up your goatrevolt image to re-focus his case on you trying to have fun, which he can't fault you for.

But if you are town, maybe there's no logical reason to stop you from doing that same thing if you think its harmless.

Instead of developing a patterned model for my play, he went on an extremely WIFOMy angle of logic and said "last time he posted fluff we thought he was scum and he was actually town, so this time it means he's town... BUT THAT'S WHAT HE WANTS US TO THINK DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUN".

I keep checking the thread, seeing town, not posting, and then LoL tells me a match has been found, but my teammate picked Katarina so it's autoloss anyway.

What?

[Jahudo]

My feelings haven't really changed. I still think pops looks scummy. I don't really like the Nabakov wagon, except for one point that I do like.

Besides that I have bad feelings about Goat and Patrick, I'll elaborate if I think they're scummy or just playstyle things I've noticed. Ima, Ecto and Red look pretty town.

[Jahudo]

Hey, I don't remember saying all that. I haven't said anything new about my feelings of the Nabakov wagon, so why has it taken you this long to find it opportunistic?

So opening yourself up to flip-flopping is scummier than continuing to keep my gut feelings to myself? Duly noted.

I haven't seen any questions directed at me, and I don't have any bad feeling about Incog's vote on me. Of course, you just look like you've been waiting to vote me for a while on old reasoning, but were afraid of the OMGUS backlash of doing it too early.

[Jahudo]

I can understand the last sentence, that you're hoping to fly under the radar, but I don't get where he's coming up with the idea that you're priming to jump on NabNab. I haven't really seen any indication of that.

Let me ask you straight up though, do you have an intention to do so?

No, because I don't see how Nab was acting scummy for going after McGriddle over the "bad scum" and "only non-invitation" comments, even though I'd agree that his case on McGriddle was unconvincing. I think that's the foundation of this wagon?

At least in, say, the last week, I find it very difficult to know why Jahudo has the opinions he does. My impression is that he's updated his views...

Do you mean my gut feelings on Goat and Patrick that weren't there before? They are new, but I'm not pushing them yet because I'm not confident yet in them being scumtells vs. disagreements in playstyle.
But I don't mind showing my work:

* PATRICK:
I don't know if its his style, but Patrick kept his random vote on Goatrevolt for most of today without finding him suspicious. It looks like he calls Goat town in Post 146 but he doesn't unvote until 258. This non-vote has allowed him to push cases without taking ownership or possible backlash that might come from a vote with holes in it. By that I mostly mean the Nabakov wagon, which he started to agree with when it was at L-6, in Post 146, but he doesn't say he'd vote or not until Nab's at L-2 and Patrick wouldn't want to be the L-1 vote. It could be stalling if Patrick didn't have more reasoning to be on the wagon since 146. And that's what I'm trying to read into with his posts and the evolution of the wagon.
@Patrick: What about the Nab wagon looked better by 196 that wasn't around by post 146.


* GOATREVOLT
I can't find where he makes a case of Nabakov being scum, which paired with him already calling out scum connections to Nabakov looks like very detrimental behavior. It looks like even if Nabakov is town, he's still setting up conditional suspicions to be independent ones because they had no basis in Nabakov in the first place.

My hesitancy is that this tell hinges on Nabakov's alignment. Goat may be keeping his reasoning to himself, or just having a strong gut lead his vote, but it doesn't really matter what it was if he's right. Otherwise I'd question why he didn't provide Nabakov-only scumtells when you're trying to lynch only Nabakov today.

[Jahudo]

I don't understand why Jahudo didn't really bother to defend himself from my vote and only seemed to do so only after receiving another vote from pops.

What's there to defend? The actual vote post didn't have anything to comment on or defend against. I responded to your Post 225 and I don't think you asked for further explanation on that point. And with your Post 269, all I can say is that I try to post about once a day on things that seem important to me.

...Considering the fact that the wagon reached L-2 rather quickly, do you still think Patrick should have placed his vote on Nab anyway? Do you often find it scummy for people to hold off for awhile on voting?

You're right on the premise of my concern, however I thought he showed some indication of liking the Nabakov wagon when it only had 1 vote on it.

I don't understand why your Goatrevolt suspicions don't apply to people like SerialClergyman or Elmo who also didn't really delve into their reasoning right away and also began looking for possible ties back to NabNab too instead of fully elaborating on the NabNab case. Explain?

I didn't call the lack of reasoning questionable by itself, because I already knew several people had done that for the Nab wagon and since they can't all be scum it must not be a reliable tell. I'm fairly certain Elmo did not start calling people scum with Nab except for post 153, which doesn't look like he's actually arguing it as much as making a joke.

But I do see where SC paired Nab with me as if he was caught scum, and it does look contradictory now that he's calling Goat out for the same thing.

----------------------

When Jahudo posts discrediting the town read on Ecto and sounding like a Nab buddy with his disagreeing with the case but zero opinion on Nab, I felt the two really looked like scumbuddies. Elmo got in first, but I agreed absolutely.

I disagree with Goat on almost all of his methods, including constantly looking for a buddy of Nab before Nab's flip and the upcoming case, which will be done primarily to look like Goat has some substance rather than do anything convincing regarding Nab.

I'd lynch any one of Jahudo, Red and Nab, at least.

His suspicion on me rests entirely on my connection to Nab, so it looks like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too.

I really like this vote.

unvote
Vote: SerialClergyman

[Jahudo]

Responding to Patrick and Goat now...

As for Nabakov, I would argue that I've actually made more points about him than anyone voting him, so I don't think the idea that I'm trying to avoid backlash is fair at all.

Well, since some of the votes on him don't have as much reasoning, they'd be the people to get backlash IMO.

As to your bottom line, when I made 146 I didn't like Nabakov's case against McGriddle and asked him about the first point, since that struck me more than others as the kind of thing scum would come up with to try and cobble together a case, and something town would be less likely to miss if they were reading to discern someone's alignment.

Is that about the "bad scum card" comment? That was the only thing you mentioned, so you're saying it wasn't strong enough for a vote at that point?

In post 196 I pointed out another thing he'd said that I disliked.

I can't find this, so I'm not sure what changed from 146 that made Nabakov worth voting (if he wasn't already at L-2)?

There were a few minor things playing on my mind too, such as his very mild reaction to what I saw as pretty opportunistic behaviour from you, but at this point it seems I'm in a minority in disliking that (I think only Incognito got the same feeling as me).

The minor things were feelings he was trying to turn away attention from Red or pops? And then the part about me in that post makes me think you'd rather lynch me first to find out Nab's alignment, rather than adding suspicion onto Nab.

--------------------------

How can you say I'm setting up conditional suspicions to be independent ones? That's pure speculation on how I would play tomorrow in the chance that Nabakov isn't scum. Calling me suspicious because of how you believe I'm going to act if a conditional scenario is reached is pretty poor. You've got a lot of ground to cover if you want to convince me that you actually believe this to be true.

I was speculating, that's why it started out as an unexplained "bad feeling" on my part. I used detrimental because I was projecting into tomorrow and how your playstyle could affect the game then, but you're right that it doesn't matter now. I'm not trying to pursue this feeling, to be clear. It was something I was asked to elaborate on.

[Jahudo]

Patrick looks okay to me now.

@Jahudo, even from memory I know that SerialClergyman gave a reason against you that's completely seperate from a Nabakov connection, and it didn't take long to find it in iso. Did you read his posts?

All I can find is how "Nab and I were undermining his Ecto town read in a scummy way", which I still don't understand because I never said Ecto wasn't town or anything close to that. So even his pairing scumtell is misrep.

So this looks really similar to "not posting reasoning until asked to" (i.e. dragging it out of him, ZOMG) to me. Do you see where I'm going with this?

No I do not see where you are going with this. I have never said this was bad on you. All I did was agree with Nab that it was there, and that I wasn't sure if this was normal for you. IE: If its normal, then we don't have any problem. And I learned it was normal. So I don't have any problem.

[Jahudo]

@Incognito:

You're right on the premise of my concern, however I thought he showed some indication of liking the Nabakov wagon when it only had 1 vote on it.

I looked back, and I couldn't find this. The first post Patrick made after NabNab got one vote on him was post #146 where he doesn't seem to give any kind of strong reads for who he thinks is scum; he only gives town reads there. Was there a section you had in mind?

This paragraph:

Reading over Nabakov's case against McGriddle, I found it unconvincing. I thought McGriddle's bad scum card read fairly naturally and not like something put in to try and lull people into a false sense of security (also, based on a small snapshot, I think it's true). The first point has a bit of a cooked up feel to it.

Specifically the wording of "cooked up feel to it", and Patrick has since acknowledged that Nab was doing something more scummish than townish:

when I made 146 I didn't like Nabakov's case against McGriddle and asked him about the first point, since that struck me more than others as the kind of thing scum would come up with to try and cobble together a case, and something town would be less likely to miss if they were reading to discern someone's alignment

But I don't think this matters now. He's explained to me that the Nab case grew from that point to when Nab was at L-2, and he wasn't ready to vote or online at the right time to vote before the wagon got to L-2.

[Jahudo]

I believe Nab is a role cop, because it's so easily confirmed, but I don't know about his alignment. It seems a role cop is something about as likely for town or scum to have, seeing as both sides can find it useful.

The first thing that came to mind was, why didn't Nab just claim regular cop? That wouldn't have been a complete lie, and he would have had a better chance of catching fakeclaims if he was kept alive. Maybe there's a MD thread saying that's a bad strategy though, or maybe he didn't consider it.

One point I do like against Nab is that he falsely claimed McGriddle was trying to get on the "dominant wagon" in post 135, when it only had 1 vote on it before him.
I can't find where he addressed this?

Not gonna answer my currency question? Scum.

Its because they used to contain silver and nickel that had the same melt value as their face value (ie: 10 cents worth of silver in a dime; 5 cents worth of nickel in a nickel). I guess that explains why succinctness is a pro-town tell. Smaller posts sometimes contain more worth. [/wisdom]

[Jahudo]

I don't know what anyone is attacking Nabakov for. I figured reasoning is there, but I'm too lazy to go look at it, or didn't get it first read through.

Its odd that you never bothered to find the reasoning, since you placed your gut read on that same level as other's reads:

I also hate Nabanab as much as everyone else seems to, but it's been gut and I don't get the articulated reasons atm

To quote a certain pops, "I'll withhold my reasoning so I can make it up later if I must and can flipflop as needed."

So how is it better to have unreasoned gut feelings on the largest wagon of the day, and worse to have unreasoned gut feelings on people not being wagoned?

And I'm scummy for having points for and against Nabakov, but you wouldn't be scum and say you're too lazy to analyze the reasoning for the wagon?

If you want to continue saying your case is "good stuff", I think you need to explain your own stuff.

[Jahudo]

Hammertime.

gg for nabnab, let's get a flip.

Patrick hasn't commented on the claim yet, we should at least wait for him.

I think there are better wagons today and just under 3 days to have them. If I had to place Nab on a suspect list now, he'd probably rank 3rd so I'd be okay with his lynch and even hammer if needed.

I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.

Post 208, 6th paragraph.

unvote;
Vote: popsofctown

- Can I interest anyone in a pops lynch?

[Jahudo]

I know that's a triple-post there, pops, but each of the three posts has like quadruple duplications inside them. I'm having a hard time seeing what is yours, and what is quotes. What is the gist of your post?

[Jahudo]

vote jahudo

Do you have a case on me? All I can find is mentions about me not posting enough, being Nab's scumbuddy and not getting enough heat. And I feel like I've been posting a normal amount.

Vote: popsofctown

, the ultimate Nabakov fence-sitter.

[Jahudo]

Here's all the reasoning I could find from Incog on me:

1)

I guess the thing that bothered me about Jahudo's #179 wasn't only the switch in opinion(s); it was also just the way it was done. I made a post asking for McGriddle to link to the popsofctown-game that he kept talking about and then only minutes later Jahudo mentioned the following:

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

The first part where he seems to imply that he didn't know what game it was all along just doesn't seem genuine to me. Considering the fact that my post was made at 5:18 my time and Jahudo's post was made less than 20 minutes after it, I just don't see how he could have

a)

found the game,

b)

analyzed it to see if he could figure out what McGriddle was talking about, and then

c)

change his opinion of him in such a short timeframe. Jahudo, when did you first figure out what game it was McG was referring to?

You had nothing to do with me making my post, and I only knew what to look for after McGriddle talked about "Command Points", so it was my first post after he explained the command points.

The actual game was not that important in the beginning because I thought he could explain it through their memory. So I asked if McGriddle if that game and this were comparable, which was the only part I needed to know if the tell on pops was good.

2)

Jahudo was giving McGriddle a bit of flak and stating that he basically agreed with the case that NabakovNabakov put together against him (McG), and he questioned me about why I disagreed. I stated why I disagreed and then asked McGriddle to link to the game he had been referring to all along. If Jahudo's scum, I could see him trying to ignore the game in question so that he could continue to push the case against McG. I don't think that would be able to happen any longer once the game came to the forefront though.

If you look at that specific post where I question why you disagreed, I was only talking about that one point. So it wasn't the whole McGriddle case, which I've stated point-by-point when I disagreed with something myself. And in this post, I say McGriddle hasn't explained his tell and I asked him to explain it. So I don't see how that's ignoring it. I was just allowing McGriddle to choose his own way of explaining it, whether that including linking to the other game or not. I would think he could explain how the two games were similar without linking to the game, but that would have depended on what he specifically said.

3)

I'm voting Jahudo because yes, I do think he's been a bit lurky so far, and I've just been getting a backgroundsy type of feel from his posting. I don't know how to elaborate it any better than that - he's been asking questions and stuff yes, but the impression that I've been getting is that he's just asking them for the sake of asking them; it just doesn't feel genuine to me.

This post by itself is pretty vague. What specific places was I in the background or asking questions for the sake of asking them? I've already said I think I'm posting an average amount, though I guess could compare it to other recent mini day 1's if needed.

[Jahudo]

Posting a response to all these attacks that were pages and pages ago is laughable and just reveals you've been avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down, like I've suggested.

I did address part of it yesterday, so the part about me not asking for the Precision Mafia game link is somewhat re-hash.

The other part about my activity didn't seem necessary to defend with words at the time, but rather to just continue posting and being active like I thought I was. But I'm not sure if anyone's still using it against me, so that's what I'm wondering now.

However I went ahead and calculated my three most-recent mini games and my day 1 activity. I am below average in posting. I'm not sure why, but I think those games had less walls o' text and more goofy mechanics.

TTGL (58 / 699 posts) = .082
Alabama Corr. (27 / 353 posts) = .076
Mafia reverb = (52 / 695 posts) = .074

This game (20 / 388 posts) = .051

[Jahudo]

You make it sound like "whenever I post, its active lurking". I only see 1 example out of 20+ posts. Are you trying to manipulate the facts through exaggeration now?

And besides pops, I can point to at least 10 of your posts that are 100% fluff and do nothing to further the game. At least my active lurking post gave player reads (albeit weak gut and unchanged reads). Yours boosted your post count to make it seem like you were on top of everything in the game, which I've already proven was false when you didn't give a read on the biggest wagon of the game.

[Jahudo]

The post was to pops. Here's my Incog retort:

As for which places were ones where I felt you were background-ish, I'm looking through your isolation now and post #81 was probably the first one to give me that kind of feeling. I think it was mainly because in that post, you were touching on pops-related stuff that had already been analyzed to a certain extent, and you didn't make much mention on the other stuff that had happened outside of pops at around that time. Also, in that post, I don't get a clear vibe as to which way you were leaning on pops' alignment there; you seem to mention some positives, negatives, and neutrals about him, so to me the post comes off as a bit wish-washy.

Well that was my first post since page 2, so I had some catching up to do in a game that had some big posts early on. That threw me off.

But I don't see where I presented a negative on pops. I didn't have a read on him that early into the game, but on that one point I thought he wasn't out of character for his Goat vote. I don't think I gave any indication it might be scummy.

Your 10th post does more of the same too - you make mention that you don't like the Nab wagon but then also mention there's a point that you do like about it. Again, it just feels wishy-washy to me.

I only liked one part of the case on Nab. That shouldn't mean I have to either accept all of it or refuse all of it. If I was supporting and refusing the same part of the Nab case, then I could see your meaning. But I wasn't.

==================

The other things I'm noticing are your switch to SC in your 13th post - the switch just didn't feel natural to me and felt forced instead. It came after I questioned you about how SC was making ties back to NabNab the same way Goatrevolt had been doing, and you pulled up a few quotes that showed where he did this "tieing together" thing before switching your vote to him. The transition there just didn't feel right especially since SC really

had

listed separate reasoning for you being scum prior to those posts outside of a possible NabNab partnership, so I couldn't completely figure out why you wanted to switch at that time when you seemed so bent on a pops-lynch anyway.

Pops may be my top suspect, but there have to be more than 1 scum so I feel my vote was a natural way of showing who I was willing to lynch. Maybe the transition was fast, but the evidence is overwhelming.

SC did not have a separate listed reasoning for me being scum outside of a Nab partnership. I've looked and I can't find it.

His response after my vote looks like backtracking.

I'd echo that there's a pretty obvious difference between highlighting a suspicious relationship between two players and analysing the entire town's busses or defences while assuming an unflipped player is scum.

He so was doing the latter and not the former, like he seems to imply to the contrary.

I felt the two really looked like scumbuddies. Elmo got in first, but I agreed absolutely.

How more clear can you be?

==================

I also don't see where pops was fence-sitting on NabNab like you mention - he mentioned earlier in Day 1 that he had a bad gut feeling about him but later in the Day I thought he made it fairly clear that he just wasn't having those feelings anymore. That seems more like a change in opinion to me rather than fence sitting.

I know, and I reminded him about that yesterday when he said he didn't have a read on Nab (post 356 ) but he said it didn't matter anymore (post 362). It looked like he was trying to avoid any ownership for or against the wagon. I could see why he would, since I was being pegged as a Nab buddy for voicing any opposition.

[Jahudo]

To say that a case "might have legs" I would think means that you believe it could be indicative of him being scum, no? So that would be a negative.

Oh that. I mean, I wasn't discounting what Goat thought but I also don't really understand OMGUS as a tell in most situations, like that, so I just thought it could use more explanation.

I would expect your overall impression of the person's alignment to go along with that. I don't see any indication of that in the post I linked to. Because of that, it just feels wishy-washy to me.

I thought enough people knew how I felt about Nab by making their own conclusions. We were scumbuddies, remember?

Even though the "he" he's mentioning here happened to be NabNab who he claimed might be linked to you, I still think that's a separate reason.

Oh, like we both did it separately. I guess, but that tell on me never made sense to me. I never disarmed the town read on Ecto, I was saying I didn't understand it based on that one post.

Can you explain this last part?

Its my subjective speculation, but it makes sense in my world.

[Jahudo]

psst, pops, come join the jahudo wagon! we have cookies!

Can I have a cookie?

Elmo, as a strict rule do you like quantity over quality in your posts? If not, can you argue that my quality of posts are also lacking? And if quantity does matter alot, I guess you don't see many scum spammers?

[Jahudo]

Where are Goat and Red leaning on a top suspect at the moment? Besides each other if that's still the case in any way.

Because of my reasons yesterday, and the fact that nab and pops couldn't have been working together at all.

Vote: Pops

What do you mean "working together"?

[Jahudo]

Ok. Goat are you still suspicious about that "case" I made on you? I've tried to explain that it wasn't a case, and that I wasn't calling you scummy or pushing anything opportunistically. But if you aren't going to give me any heat, then I guess its not a big deal for you? (feel free to use this opportunity to vote me though... the no vote thing just looks weird at this point in the game)

Iamausername is a solid town read for me, no way I'd vote him. pops is still my top suspect. I don't see how either pops or I are easy wagons, but I don't really know what that means for these specific cases. Are we just acting newbish? dropping obvtells?

[Jahudo]

You said you found me and Patrick scummy, and then your elaboration was the "detrimental, maybe setting up conditional suspicions to be independent" ones post.

I said I had bad feelings about you, and I wasn't confident enough to reveal until I was brought under pressure to reveal them. I didn't call you scummy. Quote me if I'm wrong. And town can be detrimental, if I think they're strategy is hurting the overall scumhunting process. Since my confidence in reading your actions was low, I was still considering you were town and not considering all the long-term ramifications of unnecessarily spreading suspicion across multiple people given variables that were still unknown.

The part that gets me, though, is how you backed off completely when I called you out, and never came back to it, even today, when RedCoyote built a huge case on me based on the idea that I

was

taking conditional suspicions and making them independent ones.

Your initial response sufficed my doubt.

I was set against Nabakov and there would be no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere.

If I was scum, why would I have tried to derail the Nab wagon?

I haven't read day 1 yet, which is why I haven't voted. I would like to actually read over everything again and improve my reads before throwing out a vote willy-nilly, especially considering pops is sitting at L-1 right now.

That's fine.

lol. Why would you encourage someone to vote you when suggesting that someone should vote in general?

I just want to know where he stands.

For what it's worth, I didn't read Jahudo's post #299 as two separate cases, but I think we can all agree that they were two people who Jahudo claimed were pinging his scumdar at that time. Otherwise I can't see why else he'd mention them there.

Just being cooperative I guess, and in the end it did help me downgrade those bad feelings.

[Jahudo]

I was set against Nabakov and there would be no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere.

If I was scum, why would I have tried to derail the Nab wagon?

My impression was not that you were "trying to derail" the Nab wagon at all. Can you show me this? You pushed for pops, but I distinctly remember you bringing individual points up against Nab despite not actually jumping on the wagon.

I wasn't trying to; when you said "no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere" I thought you meant me giving you a reason to look elsewhere.

I said I had bad feelings about you, and I wasn't confident enough to reveal until I was brought under pressure to reveal them.

Am I reading that right? Sounds like practically a scumclaim. You need pressure to reveal your reads? what?

I don't see how you come to that conclusion. They weren't reads. They were observations that I couldn't qualify into alignment tells at that time. I couldn't even say they were "gut scum", just "bad feelings". If anything it was fence-sitting.

[Jahudo]

Pops, explain why my case on you is stupid.

My case is not about fluffposting anymore and I'm willing to drop that notion entirely since its not reliable given his recent posting with a very un-wishy-washy stance on me.

Pops said he had a gut read on NabNab as strong as these 5 people's votes: (Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername, McGriddle), which would indicate he had a strong gut read on Nab being scum. He downgrades that to a null read near deadline, based on nothing he can or is willing to explain. Even if its gut, he should be able to point to actual posts that gave him a gut read that strong. Without explanation to the contrary, I feel like he was going with the flow early, and only moved away to setup another mislynch.

What's worse is that he tried to use the same logic against me, saying that I was withholding my reasoning so I could make them up later. I went on to explain my gut reads when it became an issue, while pops has continued to ignore this point against him.

What's even worse than that is he has suspected me for not responding appropriately to votes on myself, even though the vote posts themselves had no questions or reasoning that I could comment on. But when I bring up my case, on how and why he could have ignored NabNab on day 1, he ignores it. His only defense is:

That was six days ago. He did bug my gut back then, doesn't do so now. *shrug*

And I don't buy his nonchalant attitude here. Its the biggest wagon of day 1, and it was a strong gut read for him. It had to disappear for some reason.

And another thing... he says I'm suspicious for not defending, then when I go back and look for reasons why people might be on my wagon he says I'm suspicious when I do address the points against me. That feels like confirmation bias, when you would find someone scummy for doing something OR for not doing it.

This point against me does not have legs, because the reasoning for my wagon was not present in any vote posts: example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4.

And it wasn't given to me after I asked what I was supposed to defend against. But I was able to piece together what I thought was all the reasoning, and I think it happened in a timely manner given that the last 2 real-life days of Day 1 was more important to be talking about Nab, and I defended in the first real-life day of Day 2.

Finally, my activity levels are lower than normal as TOWN AND SCUM. I am aware of this but cannot say why this is so. It has nothing to do with my grasp on this game, because I have a good read on pops and want him to claim.

It would also be nice if Elmo / Incog and hey, even Pops would state what points they think are still valid against me, and what they didn't like from my responses to those points if and when I gave them. I don't mind turning this into the Jah and pops show for a few days while we see where everybody stands on each wagon.

[Jahudo]

Ok, I think I've already said all I can think of about #418.

I seriously can't see how

anyone

can be reading him in that way at this point in the game.

And it makes me more likely to be scum because? I just said what I feel.

Assuming pops is scum, who could you see as his potential buddy?

I'm not thinking in those terms, but rather have a list of top suspects individually. But I don't have the same level of confidence in any of those reads, and am not ready to vote any of them yet. So I will not give names before I am ready to vote them.

And finally, I just feel like your play here reminds me pretty closely of the type of play you put forth in Mini 692 - Boost Mafia where you were scum.

I don't remember how I acted in that game.

Out of curiosity, do you feel like confirmation bias is more likely to come from town or scum?

I'd think either, but they'd be there for different reasons. I feel like pops, when talking about me ignoring votes on me, then addressing votes on me, had initially assumed two scenarios (one scum would do, the other town would do), then turned them both into scum scenarios. I think town would stay consistent in what they were looking for.

[Jahudo]

Pops, how else am I supposed to read "I hate NabNab as much as everyone else" when 5 people are on his wagon?

I mean, really guy? What's worse is that the whole argument is that I'm scummy because I didn't want to lynch a townie.

So you had a town read on him? Or are you using hindsight to your advantage? Because if you had a town read on him, it might have been pro-town to say that when he was at L-1 yesterday. And if you are speaking from hindsight, then you sound more like scum who knew he would flip town.

-The fluffpost argument was intended to make a mountain out of a molehill, so the reasoning wasn't meant to be solid. I was not going to limit myself to Jailbreak because I feel you could fluffpost to your advantage as scum too.

-RE: lurking. We've had 20 real life game days. I've had like 33-34 posts. That's better than the "post once a day" mantra that should be acceptable in most communities. If you want to argue content lurking, you need to be more specific.

-Asking questions is how I scumhunt. If I had a good opinion or read, I said them. And I can provide plenty of examples of those.

-Waffling on who again? If you mean Nab, then I guess we have different definitions of waffling because I haven't understood that argument yet.

-There's no adhom here.

-Ok, lets let other people decide who has waffled. I say your null read on Nab was vague enough that you could have helped the wagon over the edge if you needed to, but you didn't and instead setup day 2 mislynch. I also say that my opinion against a Nab wagon far outweighed my support of a Nab wagon.

[Jahudo]

@Goat: have you finished reading yet? Is the pops wagon still crap?

Where's your day 2 mislynch? Unless you are accusing me of trying to wagon Patrick day 2, you can't use that argument. How the sam hill are you gonna appeal to your own town flip to defend yourself? You're being absolutley ridiculous.

Early on it might have been SC, since NabNab was at L-2 when you voted. Later on it looked more like myself or McGriddle. We know where you are today, but the point was that tomorrow you were looking in alot of places for scum, except NabNab and his wagon. And I don't buy you saying that you didn't know why everyone was attacking NabNab.

Stuff like this shouldn't count as a post. I'm not gonna pick out every bit of your posting that is just clarification and not strong content.

That was naer the top of page 2. Go and look at the other posts next to me and they line up pretty much the same content-wise: iamausername's 27, Red's 28, pops' 29, incog's 30 and patrick's 31 are mostly small questions and clarifications. I don't see player reads and legitimate accusations until a little bit later on. Yours in 29 just looks like another Random-vote stage post, so you really shouldn't be talking to me about what should count as a post on page 2.

Lurking is secondary it's not the main point, the main thing is what a waffle you are.

I'll ask once again: who did I waffle on and where? Don't be dismissive now.

[Jahudo]

I'd like to know if Elmo and Incognito have self-read themselves in other games. That might clear up if this is something they'd naturally do to put some levity into their game. But if that's the case, why is it needed?

[Jahudo]

I wonder if pops will claim now. He said he wouldn't until 3 days before deadline, but maybe Goat's call will change him mind.

I'm also wondering if McGriddle thinks I might be scum, and if he has a preference for either lynch. I think him and Goat are the main swing votes at this moment. So if people want me to claim today (Elmo, Incog), they should be acting with more urgency and purpose like Goat is.

P.S. Jahudo's last post was, imo, another good example of exactly what pops was elaborating on here. I don't see how anyone playing with 2500+ posts under his belt could really look deep into players giving themselves town reads. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first game that he's seen this done before. I can't tell if Ectomancer is being serious or not but Jahudo sure seems to be.

What, pops agreeing with the backgroundish stuff? I probably have seen people give self-reads, but I don't have examples and don't know if town have done it more often than scum. I don't see the point of doing it for fun when you seem like a serious player and player reads are serious stuff.

[Jahudo]

So pops, were you hoping to die last night? You called Goat scummy at the end of day 1. Why did you protect him?

[Jahudo]

And here I thought that twilight rant was fluff. I can taste the egg on my face.

I don't know who I want to lynch, to be honest. But I don't think pops is the right lynch today. So I'll unvote for now.

unvote

[Jahudo]

QFT. Confirmed-to-each-other-town masons, and you don't know how long I've been wanting to get that out in the open. This role has been pretty uncomfortable so far, trying to lay low (which i guess is "backgroudsy") so we could survive when there's only a few people left in the game and masons are more valuable.

McGriddle could be a good lynch for his Nab and Pops hops. I think real-life could account for some of it, but maybe not all of it?

[Jahudo]

Unfortunately I think Pops is going to get NK'ed no matter who he targets.
A massclaim is probably best today. I like the order Goat suggests.
I'm suspicious of McGriddle and SC. I don't have a problem with Ecto's claim. It explains his first post of day 2, not being settled with Patrick's hammer post.

To be honest I've had a town read on RC, partly because he seemed to be okay with what I was doing. But maybe I'm being biased and should really look at Goat's case on him again. I'm feeling okay about Elmo and Incog. And I agree Goat looks town through all of this.

[Jahudo]

You've been vocal with your reads =/= explaining your reasoning

I didn't like one part of Nab's post (that I was oging to for other reasons stuff is a minor scumtell) but I'm not sold on him.

Greetings, myself and my associate Nabakov are your assigned nightkill provision officers for this game, please don't hesitate to ask us if you have any enquiries

I was thinking the same thing could be possible, Elmo.

unvote, vote Nabakov

Anyways - if we're all so keen on Nabscum, lynch time?

The speculative scumpairing does not make sense to me as a reason to change your opinion on "not sold on the wagon" to "lynch time?" without any reasoning from you.

[Jahudo]

@Goat, yeah Iama and I are confirmed to each other town. And we like to play table tennis.

2 vigs seems unusual, but a 1-shot and a even-night add up to a almost a full vig. I say we keep McGriddle around.

Vote: RedCoyote

- piggybacking on Goat's case, RC's possible misrepresentation of Goat.

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: my reason for voting is that I'm piggybacking Goat's case.

Also, Incog's only non-claimed right?

[Jahudo]

Can we pass around one of those 1st/2nd/3rd suspect lists to see who has the most suspicion on them?

SC and RC are mostly a toss-up for me. I'm only thinking Ecto as SK, which could still explain his remorse in his first day 2 post for not killing scum night 1.

The list:

RedCoyote - Jah 1st,
SerialClergyman - Jah 2nd,
Ectomancer - Jah 3rd,

[Jahudo]

Question for the class: Why can you guys only see Ecto as being an SK? Why hasn't the thought that Ecto could simply be mafia fake-claiming the role of one-shot vig entered your minds?

Killer's remorse looked genuine. I don't think mafia would be as concerned about finding theoretical SK early vs. SK hoping to thin down mafia numbers early.

Both claims could be real given they add up to ~full vig. McGriddle is at least potentially testable still, but Ecto is not.

I don't care who McGriddle targets tonight as long as he doesn't say it until it's been done. That should hopefully minimize scum interference.

[Jahudo]

At night I said Goat could be scum for being a spam poster. Its so much noise and so little information that I could follow. But I didn't know how to form a case on him or Pat without it being torn down too quickly. I was truthful that it was over with the tells I thought I knew, but I guess I was misleading on gut tells. I didn't want pressure coming back around so soon.

So I was wrong about Pat, and Goat is probably still town as much as I don't want him to be. But I'm going to trust Iama's read on RC for now. Though I'd rather switch my vote to SC. I don't want a pops lynch.

unvote;
Vote: SerialClergyman

- that's L-1, I believe.

[Jahudo]

When did Ecto claim odd night vig?

[Jahudo]

Iama wasn't around at night. No QT posts, no response to my PM. So I don't have anything for you there, you'll have to wait for him.

As for me, I'll say again that I have been playing a normal mason game. Alot of the points against me I realized I was doing on purpose. If that was the wrong play, then so be it. I have no idea who the scum are. And I don't know how I'm supposed to defend things I think are towntells.

[Jahudo]

Yeah it looks like iamausername made 2 posts on Sunday in the newbie he's modding. I can't tell you why he wasn't around from then into today.

[Jahudo]

So basically, I think a Red lynch + an Ectomancer vigging of a mason would be the best route to take today.

I'm on board for this plan, since PoE makes me see a scumteam of Red-Elmo-Incog.

However I find it hard to pair Elmo and Incog together when he said this:

And I'm almost positive that Elmo is town here too. Unless Elmo figured out how to play a scum game completely unlike his normal scum game, I just don't see him as scum here at all.

So I'd prefer that Red be lynched first, and it would be cool for there to still be a game tomorrow and everyone knows the living masons' alignment.

[Jahudo]

What about that makes it hard for you to pair Elmo and Incognito?

Its just something I don't think scum would do. At least not in games I've played, most of the time they'll keep a backdoor open to distancing or full out bussing.

[Jahudo]

I agree. No votes yet. If there's a scum RB, we have no way of winning if we go to night with a mislynch.

[Jahudo]

I don't see how "scum mason" is a role that fits a normal game, because I don't see how it's a normal role. I've heard of one person in a masonry being scum when they're unconfirmed, but not both showing up as town to a role cop when they're really scum.

You really should look at it like we're either town masons or mafia goons.

[Jahudo]

Right, forget the part about role cop getting town. My point is more that scum wouldn't have a role name containing "Mason".
Sources: This post. And this post. Also this post.

I will make a case for RC.

[Jahudo]

Just looked through zoraster's game and wow, I had no idea that he had BOTH of the masons as scum.

Hmm, that game is a large normal but I would still think scum masons are non-normal. No offense to zor, but I'd listen to Thok and Thesp over him.

And if masons have created this much doubt, a weak doctor could get killed without us knowing who he protected, and vigs could swing momentum to the scum I wouldn't think this setup was town-powerful. But that's just me and that only setup I created was swingy as hell.

Right, back to the case-making.

[Jahudo]

RC is scum by his lack of scumhunting. On day 1 he shows...

* A lack of trying to understand and address the points of the NabNab wagon. (No quotes, but ISO him and try to find reaction to Nab's "dominant wagon", "bad scum", "only non-invitation" case points on McGriddle, his further reaction to McGriddle unvoting in consideration of voting Nab or Jahudo, or even the speculative scumpairing of Nab and Jahudo. RedCoyote holds out his opinions while filling up his text walls with less pertinent information.)

* Little interest in investigating Elmo and McGriddle. After his Elmo vote in post 117 he adds nothing new to the case until this small bit on post 274 (the bottom sentence is new, the top is mostly rehash) without any questioning or pressure. Then a little more in post 331, so about once every 4 pages he adds to his case.

* Blanket condemnation of the members of the NabNab wagon, setting up for plenty of scapegoats (and a scapegoatrevolt). This looks bad because he didn't have a strong argument for finding NabNab to be a townie, and it looks like he's projecting Nab to flip town more confidently than he can back up.

I don't see where he was overly concerned that NabNab was the only wagon during the middle of the day. He only showed that frustration when it was too late. It looks like he was coasting and maybe setting up a mislynch or two, though I don't really think he was invested in his Elmo case.

[Jahudo]

His "realization" just didn't seem genuine to me given the length of time that it happened between my post where I asked for McGriddle to provide a link to the game and the post where Jahudo came to this "realization". Basically, if Jahudo's scum, he might have known about the game all along but might have deliberately chosen not to reference it in the hopes that nobody would look back to it for cross-reference.

And this is where I repeat once again that your question on 177 had nothing to do with anything. McGriddle's post 174 caused me to WANT to look for the game. You act like I was in the game real-time, and saw your post the minute you made it. Your argument that the length of time was disingenuous is based on that premise, which you can't prove or even speculate on besides gut.

[Jahudo]

Is Incog still not sure who to vote? Is there anything I can do to convince him that a mason should be vidged tonight?

I stated several times that I didn't like Elmo or Goat's characterizations of NabNab as some sort of confirmed scum, and tried very hard to get everyone to see Elmo for the manipulative stance he was taking or McGriddle for the far too passive position he was taking.

While its true that many of those vote posts didn't contain reasoning, there were case points made. I don't think you spent much effort in analyzing them. Have I missed where you addressed any of those specific case points?

Moreover, Jahudo was content on being more vauge than I ever was on the subject (but I do like his town list ).

What motivation did I have for being vague? I was up-front that they were not confident suspicions, so they weren't intentionally or unintentionally throwing mud in Goat or Pat's eyes.

I'll be the first one to admit that my case against McGriddle was largely based on two positions. His inactivity, which was hurtful to the overall game, and the way he was so casually discounted by the rest of the players in the game.

How much did you prod McGriddle to contribute more? How much did you ask other players to assess McGriddle's contributions, in the hopes they would stop discounting them on their own?

I think I had a great case for finding NabNab townie. It was that Elmo, Goat, and McGriddle were all pushing the wagon without sincerity, in complete confirmation bias mode.

Yeah I thought that was the case to some extent, but I still looked at NabNab on his own and found a little bit I didn't like. I saw validity in their wagon
(also I knew one of the pushers was town )

It looks to me like you were seeing a mislynch well in hand and started to find subsequent mislynches off it. Otherwise you might've taken a more level approach to see the wagon from their side, even if you still rejected it in the end. I didn't see you trying to agrue for or against the NabNab case points.

Before this point, most of the people voting NabNab were doing so because they wanted to hear from him (iamausername, Incog), so I had assumed this was little more than a temporary vote that would be expanded on as the day went on.

Was part of the reason you didn't like the wagon that you thought it was mostly for pressure and only temporary? Did you think anyone besides iama or Incog was acting that way? Like SC or someone?

For the life of me I don't get how you can say I wasn't invested in Elmo. I have been on him every day.

It hard to imagine what a normal investigation of Elmo would be, so maybe yours was normal. He isn't exactly the opaque, informational type (insert cookie monster troll face here)[/i][/wiki]

[Jahudo]

I'm not going to vote anyone other than RC today.

I haven't entertained the possibility that you are scum since the day started.

Seriously? No alignment would continue a personal squabble against confirmed town. Your "you can trust me" attitude is reeking of shadiness.

I'll admit that if the Masons to flip scum, which I'm now betting is probably the case given Jahudo's convenient switch from calling me town to calling me scum (why wouldn't he do a 180 if he thinks he can get me lynched), then that puts me in an uncomfortable position.

Process of elimination, though fwiw I thought you were town because Iama thought you were town.

It also grinds my sense of balance to have not one, but two roles in game that would automatically confirm two other town roles.

The scumteam could be powered too. There's probably 3, since we've seen no sign of a SK. There's probably a roleblocker, and who knows what else.

[Jahudo]

Vote: RedCoyote

I'm guessing its safe to place my vote now. If I get put to L-1 soon, don't quickhammer. I want to make a final case in case there's just a 2-person mafia (one can always hope).

[Jahudo]

All through Day 1, you didn't mention a thing about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Through the first part of Day 2, again, you didn't mention anything about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Near mid-Day you both FINALLY mention something about each other, which just so happened to be solid town reads of one another. Prior to all of that, the only person who claimed to be having a solid town read of you from pretty much the beginning of the game was SC. So why would it be unreasonable for me to think along the lines I did?

The only thing you could derive from this is that we were an uninformed minority. I think you're still using that to automatically think uninformed minority = scum. You really haven't been looking at us as masons, and masons are partially about self-survival by keeping a low profile.

What about our game couldn't possibly be explained by "we're town masons"?

[Jahudo]

All through Day 1, you didn't mention a thing about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Through the first part of Day 2, again, you didn't mention anything about Jahudo, and he didn't mention a thing about you. Near mid-Day you both FINALLY mention something about each other, which just so happened to be solid town reads of one another. Prior to all of that, the only person who claimed to be having a solid town read of you from pretty much the beginning of the game was SC. So why would it be unreasonable for me to think along the lines I did?

The only thing you could derive from this is that we were an uninformed minority. I think you're still using that to automatically think uninformed minority = scum. You really haven't been looking at us as masons, and masons are partially about self-survival by keeping a low profile.

What about our game couldn't possibly be explained by "we're town masons"?

[Jahudo]

As everyone knows it's either me and Ecto, or the masons.

Who knows that? I don't, and wasn't thinking that way.

RC, Elmo and Incog can all be scum and we still wouldn't be at a shortage of VTs. Go look at past Normal Mini's you've played/read/heard about.

Goat and Ecto may remember that Innocence Falls only had 3 VTs.

[Jahudo]

So you think the mod would make all PR's town? Interesting. I haven't thought about this before because it is so town heavy... But considering the probability of all the claimed VT's being scum is highly unlikely.

What if they were 3 scum power roles? Something like RB + Tracker + Godfather?

They might've chosen to claim vanilla instead of their power role because it would otherwise look like there were too many town power roles. Without knowing what the scum have, I don't know how confident we should be in saying the town is over-powered.

[Jahudo]

lol what? Ecto wasn't gambiting with his vig claim... he was counter-claimed by his own scumbuddy.

Ingenious

[Jahudo]

Thanks for modding Hoops! The bankable deadlines were nice, they should be used more often. Preferably by a town that figures out how to take advantage of them

Ecto had me fooled the whole time. I didn't even want to ask about his claim switch because I think people get so worked up over the "Lynch all Liars" idea. Now at least I have an example if I want to use it in the future.

I wanted to vote Incog most of the game, but every time I wrote something up it seemed like OMGUS. He framed his case on me really well, so that I couldn't argue the tells but just the conclusion.

McGriddle played good for being a lurker and out of the loop apparently. I think his vig claim made him look better than Ecto, who was already looking good. Weird how that worked out.

And yeah, I didn't believe my case in RC but felt it had to be right because of the process of elimination. And I was definitely tunneling on pops. Hoopla, are you sure I'm not scum in this game?