Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[Faraday]

Hi. Can someone please summarise the case on Mindgamer?

[Faraday]

I've read most of the thread. It's 1:40am here though, but I'll try have something up in a little while. obviously no one be a prick and hammer, plz.

[Faraday]

Vote RedCoyote

- top suspect atm. Will get content up tomorrow. Need sleep.

[Faraday]

Top Suspects:

Redcoyote:

His early play and questioning is actually reasonable enough but I start to dislike him once the Quag wagon starts.

I really don’t like the way he approached the Quagmire wagon. I get the impression throughout it he hadn’t considerered Quagmire scum. His Iso 9 (165) is a good example of where it starts to look scummy. Vague accusations at no one in particular are pointless, either name people or don’t say anything as far as I’m concerned.

Then 186 is as bad. Calling it a smokescreen is not true. The wagon is quite informative in many ways. No different than any other wagon.

Cyberbob’s next post makes a good point in that really you’ve had nothing to do with it in the first place. Doesn’t look like bussing though. Seems more like white knighting to me. Completely ignoring any possibility that Quag is scum is not something town would do. You’re scum who knew this was a mislynch and tried to get as many town points by not being involved/defending it as you could.

He pretty much defends against the wago the whole day then jumps on at the end (maybe for valid reasons, but w/e).

Starts off with a vote on cruelty. Cruely seems fairly town to me. This is mostly based on some meta (although an ongoing game could have an effect on this) and just the fact I think he’s playing quite openly and town like.

There’s not really a whole lot else either way from the rest of his play that gives me much on his alignment. He’s been poking around and stuff.

I’d say my second suspect is Angelmouse.

The whole Joke thing, and jumping in at the defense. It’s bad play to interrupt like that and it’s also quite scummy I find. Let people answer questions asked of them.

Says she tends to vote for the person she sees as scummiest yet only fos’d cathart. This was actually in explanation to her FOS too which is odd. The ‘OH TOO EARLY’ stuff

Her iso 3 is sorta hypocritical. Asks if quag has anything else to say when, wait for it..’I have little or nothing to say since my last post though’

Her 6th post of the game and ‘catch up’ is FULL OF CREAMY GOODNESS. And by creamy I mean scummeh. She’s basically ot neutral reads on welp everyone. Has a couple of maybe/maybe nots and one scummy-ish read who she votes for.
Add to that general lurkiness and not providing a lot and I think she’s a good lynch candidate also.


Other general thoughts so far:
Agar looks a possible good bet for the 3rd scum.
Nacho and Hito are like really neutral for me atm. I’ve very little read on them either way, and I couldn’t tell you much of their play either. Eh, which is fine for the moment. They’re posting at least.
Hoopla’s miller claim is believable as are her reasons for claiming miller hood. I’m not entirely convinced it’s a ‘gimmick power roles that don’t fit set-up’ but it’s definitely possible so the FBI agent and and miller would fit.
Tracker’s claim is fairly believable and I think he’s town.

Agar how many non newbie games have you played? Have you ever encountered a miller before?


Was what I had last night. Couple more things to say now.

[Faraday]

The Mindgamer wagon doesn't really interest me. I agree his play has been quite odd but. Being defensive is not a scum tell.

I also don't see how being upset as the wagon grew is something that's more likely to come from scum.

[Faraday]

I'm withholding my read on AM until a replacement is found. I'd like to see whoever that replacement is give their thoughts on AM as well.

Why did you do this? What's the point on an Angel predeccessor giving thoughts on his/her own playerslot? Seems like they could be doing far better things.

So your motivation was self-preservation. Cool. That's not scummy at all

Why did you type this sentence out. Are you really trying to frame an early miller claim as self-preservation when there's a lot of cases where the miller is policy lynched. (Maybe not immediately but usually somtimes before endgame) Also the fact that a cop claiming after recieving a guilty on a miller is far far more damaging than most other things.

Anyway stuff like that is sorta why I don't like Agar plus a general bad feeling about him.

[Faraday]

I'm in a bit of a rush but this may be the only chance i get to post today ion this game.

Do you mean I am scummy because I wasn't offended by his D1 technique or I'm scummy because I didn't say "well, there's a 1/11 chance he's scum, so why not"?

Neither really. I mean that it seemed like you knew he was town. Obviously the only people who would KNOW that is scum, yeah, you see where this is going.

It was directed at Cyberbob, as I stated not long after that post, but it was aimed toward the wagon in general. There was no substantial basis for the wagon, it was entirely political.

Sure, it was. But I don't see that as a bad thing. Policy lynches on lurkers are good, so policy lynches on someone who's not even playing the game? String 'em up. And even if you disagree with that you have to consider it's possible he was scum which you didn't seem to ever do.

That's redundant though. By that definition, every wagon is "informative". I meant in the sense that it was a smokescreen from actual scumhunting. I wasn't just talking either because I made a strong push for a Flare lynch. I would've also been comfortable with other candidates. I wasn't just huffing and puffing; I had actual, rational lynch alternatives that weren't steeped in emotion.

The alternatives (with the exception of the tracker) didn't seem all that great. I still don't see the case on Mindgamer as substantial. And of course every wagon is informative, but not every wagon gives the same amount of information so I'd disagree with saying it's redundant.

What was the basis for calling him scum, Faraday? There was none. It was a shot in the dark. I felt very comfortable he wasn't scum, and I won't deny that. I felt it mainly because, I don't know, he hadn't done anything scummy?

He couldn't have done anything scummy without reading his role pm. And even then, he most certainly had done scummy things. Sitting back and pretty much doing nothing for the whole day. He was passive. He only tried to 'scumhunt' when he came under fire. And even if he'd been a shining light of townieness there was no reason to believe he wasn't scum. Surely you'd have at least considered the chance of him being scum? But as I said, I didn't see that.

It kinda feels like I'm arguing pretty much the same point every time here, actually heh. But yeah, it's the key one really. I don't like back and forth quote walls and I do see where you're coming from, I just think it's coming from scum.

In that case, go ahead and give me a D2 quote where he says who he suspects (other than me), maybe who he thinks is town? He threw out a token, "Mindgamer is a bad wagon", but that's because Mindgamer is the competing wagon to me.

By openly I mean easy to read. I don't think his contribution has been sterling but I still get a town read on him.

Some people go for it as an AtE scumtell.

Yeah, but I'm of the opinion that scumtell is a load of bullshit. (No offense to anyone who uses it). I used to believe it was effective but in all honesty I think tow are more likely to become emotional than scum.

Could everyone on the Mindgamer wagon give their second suspect plz?
Also RC what do you think of Agar?
Agar what do you think of Angelmouse/Edfrost

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask.
Game should be slightly more active so close to deadline, cmon.

[Faraday]

I don't know what to make of Faraday's scumlist. I don't possibly see how RC could be the strongest scum read and cruelty a town read upon an objective viewing of this thread. However, that's really delving into the area of 'anyone who disagrees with me MUST be scum' which is obviously untrue. Still, I can't shake the feeling that the 'case' on RC was written up AFTER faraday already chose to suspect him, and the best reason to suspect RC is to feed this new counter-wagon. If Mindgamer flips scum, good chance faraday is his scumbuddy.

And I really don't see why you can't see it.

And well of course it's a counter wagon, but in this case it happens to be a counter wagon that I find more likely to hit scum.

First off I wanna say that this is an account with a lot of experience behind it; some of which was with some of the players in this game.

Okay?

Faraday, I conditionally agree with hito; as I don't agree with some of your reads on players (cruel and RC respectively). RC is an experienced player. One of the higher order "tactics" is .. sensing, so to speak, the feel of the town, which I fully believe RC was using during D1 in regards to the Quagmire wagon.

Wait..what? He sense quag was town, is this what you're saying? Obviously if that's what you're saying then you're wrong, if not please re-phrase, I'm a bit hungover.

I now deem myself experienced and 'sense' RC to be scum.

To have him be the constant focus of the town (many of which were/are inexperienced, and therefore likely to follow a scum's lead) is highly suspect and I believe RC was right to question the motives and attack those that were pushing for the lynch to help determine who were the sheeple and who were the scum

Dat The Tracker wagon never happened? Sure he was a focus a lot of the day but to say no one else was examined was, well false.

It's something I've found to be useful in some cases, and usually requires very little time.

Ok. Seems totally pointless and an unreasonable request to me, but if you've used it before it's fine. But if you've done it before that's fine at least.

RC what do you think of the cruelty wagon? Maybe you've said it before, but pretty please re-state it for me

[Faraday]

Sorry I meant to ask you your thoughts on the Mindgamer wagon, not cruelty.

[Faraday]

I really feel like we're at a crossroads here. I don't know how it could be more blantant than cruelty's post 480. Not only does he not decide to take a step back from his tunnel, he makes a joke about his refusal to give the game an objective look. He makes a throwaway comment about Nacho's disappearance (although he is right, to be fair), but the unvote/vote thing is just rubbing it in, not only my face, but the collective town's faces.

Lol, the funny thing here is that I think the unvote/revote thing is while not neccessary definitely not indicative of a scum alignment and probably a town tell. I recall doing something similar as town in the first Pick your Power game actually.

I don't know, if Hoopla and Faraday see cruelty as playing pro-town in this post, then this town is going to really suffer.

I'd tend to disagree.

Whoever is town though, I don't know how to say it without coming across as arrogant or, you know, patronizing. You're not looking at this game the right way. hito summed it up about as good as anyone could,

Don't worry about appearing arrogant, I won't take it personally. I do believe you're wrong (obv!!) and are scum though.
Angelmouse/Edfrost would be my second choice. Haven't seen anything from the replacement to make me change my mind about Angelmouse and I think they're scum too.

[Faraday]

Post 487 convinced me even more of Mindgamer's townieness.

He doesn't jump on the next biggest wagon, which indicates self preservation isn't his biggest ideal, but scum hunting his. if he was scum i'd have expected him to push on to rc there.

I've no problems switching to Edfrost but it honestly doesn't seem like a viable wagon (and I've no idea why actually).

The only problem i have is the amount of neutral reads. Can you flesh those out a bit more? I don't buy you don't have some read on at least some of them.

[Faraday]

Ugh this is really frustrating that no one seems open to an RC lynch. Hito and edfrost find it almost impossible that I could find him scummy, it's just surreal.

Hoopla/cruelty thoughts on edfrost?

[Faraday]

Faraday, that's what I'm getting it - how in the world can you find THAT townie? I can see that maybe people see RC scummy, while I don't, but what I don't like is the 'cases' on him. It's like people KNOW he's very townie, and they're trying to do their best to pull up some kind of craplogic because others are doing it. I've got this feeling that RC wouldn't have been your strongest scum-read without cruelty's tunnel-vote or Hoopla lord-knows-what vote on him.

Well, admittedly that post isn't a real town tell. But idk, I don't see it as scummy either. Being a sarcastic ass isn't indicative of alignment. Sure it's annoying when directed at you, and I can understand RC's frustration in that respect but ehh, doesn't make him scummy.

So if you can see that people see he's scummy what other reasons do you think there are?

It's honestly to the point I'm probably happier with a cruelty lynch than a mindgamer lynch. Unfortunately, that's not an option barring a quick exodus of votes to crueltyville - I am not letting an RC lynch happen, so we have to keep this Mindgamer wagon viable. That being said, Mindgamer, I am liking the content coming out of your slot with your last couple of posts. It's probably too late for you, but on the chance you're townie, if you could just do a little more of what you're doing you'll be able to give us a lot to go on D3 (contrast with Quagmire). If you're a townie, I hope you can understand why I had to push your wagon and I hope next time we play together you open with this kind of content.

You're not even trying to get a cruelty wagon going though, lol. Do you ever remember making a similar post like this when you're town/scum before? It's just well...this feels really contrived.

Faraday: Yes, I believe that RC sensed that it was mostly a scum push against Quag and didn't want to be part of it. I've avoided several (town) wagons by disagreeing solely with the people voting for the person. If there's a lot of sheeple or scumreads I don't vote for that person. Period.

Okay. I don't think that's possible. So I 100% disagree with your understanding of RC's actions.

I still don't see the big thing which would make RedCoyote scum. The cases are collections of little scumtells as far as I can see.

What exactly is the convincing argument for a RedCoyote vote?

(emphasis added)

I like how after Mindgamer said this,

all three

people on my wagon chose to ignore him.

Yeah...that speaks volumes

However, I do not really agree on the RedCoyote bandwagon. I must also admit that I have not read it really carefully though. I have a headache now but it will be gone this evening (I hope) so I will give my full opinion on the wagon later today.

Hmm..wait..what did he just say?

I must also admit that I have not read it really carefully though

Hm.

I must also admit that I have not read it really carefully though

(yes that probably wasn't neccessary)

Large font added. I was waiting for him to read it and form his own opinion of the wagon before answering. I'd also disagree with his initial observation that it's 'small scumtells' I think they're quite large but w/e, at the very least he'd admitted to skimming and I'll wait till he reads it properly

That just speaks volumes about the sincerity of my wagon. They're essentially confessing to Mindgamer that they don't have anything, and that he just needs to "be more open" to it, or whatever.

No..wait..what? I can't believe you honestly read my post as a confession. I'm annoyed because people can't seem to see your scumminess, but I'm pretty sure that was clear the first time.

I mean, I don't know what else to say. Mafia or not, cruelty has a chip on his shoulder that he's willingly acknowledged. I don't see how someone can not see that as anti-town.

Just to be clear, you do still think he's scummy don't you?

[Faraday]

It's honestly to the point I'm probably happier with a cruelty lynch than a mindgamer lynch. Unfortunately, that's not an option barring a quick exodus of votes to crueltyville - I am not letting an RC lynch happen, so we have to keep this Mindgamer wagon viable. That being said, Mindgamer, I am liking the content coming out of your slot with your last couple of posts. It's probably too late for you, but on the chance you're townie, if you could just do a little more of what you're doing you'll be able to give us a lot to go on D3 (contrast with Quagmire). If you're a townie, I hope you can understand why I had to push your wagon and I hope next time we play together you open with this kind of content.

You're not even trying to get a cruelty wagon going though, lol.

Do you ever remember making a similar post like this when you're town/scum before? It's just well...this feels really contrived.

Eh, see the strike through. I think it probably is too late to start a new wagon so pass agressive accusation withdrawn.

[Faraday]

I replaced Flareonage, Edfrost replaced Angelmouse.

Now let me read.

[Faraday]

Not a problem, just pointing it out to you.

AGar:
I like his aggression, and his case on Mindgamer isn't bad. (Sorry, not a lot to say here)
Final Read: Neutral leaning townie.

Could you be a little more specific in what agression he's shown that you've liked?

Hoopla brought up Quagmire not reading his role PM, and started the wagon against him. However, she wasn't the main proponent of it. Scum points.

Uh? What do you mean? She pushed the wagon pretty much all day didn't she?

Mindgamer:
Mind seems like a new scum struggling to play. His votes are horridly weak, and his activity sucks. Scum points.

So you find lurking scummy then?

I love Red's play. He's agressive, he shows his reasoning, and Hoopla attacks him. He opposed the Quagmire wagon and offered alternatives, he's active.
Final Read: Probable Town

How do any of these make him more likely to be town?

that post is interesting, in all honesty it makes more of an impression than most of what nacho did, but yeah. Why do you think tracker is town? Is it because of his claim?

[Faraday]

RAWR so is reading.

[Faraday]

RAWR so is reading.

I meant points against

me

specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.

~ F

You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.

[Faraday]

I was waiting for him to read it and form his own opinion of the wagon before answering.

Read: CYA

Come on, Faraday. Maybe I'd buy it if you said that you kind of skimmed the post and didn't notice the question, but if anything him admitting that he had not read it carefully would be a sign for you to, I don't know, assist him? Give a summary? Point to a post? Explain your reasoning? Anything?

Not when he said he was going back to read it later, seems reasonable to let him go back and read it properly and then answer any questions he has, doesn't it.

Yeah, "people".

As in people

not

voting me. As in Mindgamer.

Lolwut? I realise we're talking about Mindgamer? You were the one who said I was confessing to him that I had no case or some such stuff, and I'm saying I'm frustrated that people aren't voting you. Obviously since he's a person, then he'd be included. But, thanks for clarifying that he's a person!!

Absolutely I do. Here's the 64 thousand dollar question though: Do you think there were scum on Quagmire's wagon? If so, who is the most likely to be it (excluding me, obviously)?

Well obviously I do think there was scum on the wagon; I'm voting you. If you mean was there more than one scum, then yeah, I'd say there probably was. Agar doesn't look bad for scum. There's some little things he's done that I'm unsure of, but it could be just his playstyle. Have you played with him before?

If you're asking me for some sort of wagon analysis then I can't help. I tend to think it pretty useless, in general (although I've seen DGB use it properly I'm not convinced it was any better than random). I'm sure there's at least one on the wagon by random chance alone after that who knows, really.

I don't think that I should really be jumping into this game in the middle when I don't even have a newbie game under my belt. If I would have joined in the beginning, it would be a different story, but for now I must leave this game and focus on other games/RL

There was a point or two I disagreed with you on, but I really, really liked your opening post. I'm positive those who disagreed with you liked your opening post, too. You obviously had read the game, and you gave clear, absolute positions on where you stood after doing so. One cannot ask for a better replacement than that. I really wish you would reconsider leaving us, because I can definitely see the enthusiasm in your post. Trust me, I've seen some rotten replacements before, and you are most certainly not one of them.

If you don't come back, then I hope Mindgamer is happy scaring you away.

Agreed here though. While I obviously didn't agree with everything he said it was nice to actually get a player who'd came in, read the thread, and posted his thoughts. Stay in the game plz.


Hito what are you going to do with your vote now that we have a deadline extension in lieu of the fact you believe Mindgamer to be town.

[Faraday]

You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.

I wasn't implying a damned thing. I just wanted to know what the entirety of your case was based upon (only angel's play or based off of scumtells in my play that I can refute, etc, etc, etc). It's more asking for clarification of your case than saying you are scummy for finding me scummy due to my predecessor's play. Don't mix it up.

~ F

Uh how about you try again?

Faraday calling me his #2 suspect without giving any real reasoning is, in of itself, suspect. Faraday, reasoning is tech.

I meant points against me specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.

I read this (your clarification) still related to the first post, so I need to bring up points about you specifically or it's suspect?

[Faraday]

Alright will you maybe make your fucking mind up?

.

Faraday calling me his #2 suspect without giving any real reasoning is, in of itself, suspect. Faraday, reasoning is tech.

Says I've given no reason for suspecting him here.

RAWR so is reading.

Obviously I have given reasoning against finding angelmouse's slot scummy, and the above quote indicates that.

RAWR so is reading.

I meant points against

me

specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.

~ F

Asks for points against him specifically. OKAY, obviously that wasn't clear the first time I said it. Also seems to accept that I have some points against Angelmouse, or it reads like that to me.

You seem to be implying this is a bad thing, but yeah sure I can go with the above to summarise it. Angelmouse was scummy and you've done nothing to change my mind.

^ I say that's pretty much the case.

I wasn't implying a damned thing. I just wanted to know what the entirety of your case was based upon (only angel's play or based off of scumtells in my play that I can refute, etc, etc, etc). It's more asking for clarification of your case than saying you are scummy for finding me scummy due to my predecessor's play. Don't mix it up.

It was a request for clarification.

I then show the first two quotes which appear to show I'm suspect for not giving reasoning for finding him scummy. Him as in Edfrost, is what he later clarified.

So I'm asking again, why?

Trying again: How about you summarize all your "Ed's *slot* is scummy" points. You could even like separate them into categories and stuff so we know what you think is scummy of both angel and I. Perhaps even decorate your post with the post numbers that all this scumminess happened; maybe line it with a couple quotes. It'll make it look pro and make you look like less of a lazy bum for saying we're scummy without actually saying why.

Trying again? You didn't try before You asked for specific points against you, that is to say Edfrost so you could refute them.
You've already given some indication that I have made points against Angelmouse, in fact you seemed to accept it.

So, seriously, make your fucking mind up about what you're asking. Is it your slot, or do I need specific points against Edfrost? Because you seem to have changed your mind over the course of these few posts.

But sure, I can do that. It'll be a bit later, probably.

[Faraday]

To be clear, I'm not saying I have a strong town read on Mindgamer - only that his more recent posts are weakening my scum read on him. Right now I think I'd peg Mindgamer as neutral-leaning-scum.

Okay, I guess I thought from your other post you had a reasonably strong town read on him, but obviously that wasn't the case.

[Faraday]

Hey Edfrost I'm about to read you in Iso! Are you excited? I am!!!

[Faraday]

surely it was a joke. We're only on page two, game barely started and with 12 players it's hardly a lynch situation.

Jumping the gun a bit and voting on it?? Strange play

fos, cot.cathartic

Putting possible slips off as jokes is bad. It sets a bad precedent for the rest of the game. There was also no real reason for her to jump in here at the defense of The Tracker.
The FOS is horribly weak, basically saying it's too early to scumhunt which is BS.

I wasn't defending tracker, i just read it as a joke and thought it strange that Col.C had read into it so harshly and voted on it. I haven't said anything in defence of tracker anyway, more just my interpretation of it. I think mislynch is the wrong word and a slip up, but is a scum slip up, I don't know yet, more time required to work that out. I agree that voting on something he suspects is def the best play, but it was flimsy reasoning in my opinion. We had barely entered RV stage and im all for getting out of it quickly, but to find someone scummy on their first post and put a serious vote on it is strange and something to mention and watch. I might be wrong in my game theory, but i like to get a flavour for everyone and the way they are playing. Hats off to it though, game has properly started.

'I wasn't defending tracker' isn't really true. Not that she's lying, but by attacking the attack I think she is defending tracker.
If she's all for getting out of the RV stage quickly then why is voting on supposed flimsy reasoning a bad thing. There's no other way you can get out is there?

ISO 3 is the definition of hypocrisy. The scummy kind too.

Her next two posts are filler, basically saying why she's not here, which is reasonable enough. I don't get the impression she was lurking/avoiding the thread (and it's impossible to check without search on :/) but yeah, she probably was busy.

I'm not for a quagmire lynch today. Thing is though, i do see it as pro scum though.

I'm not sure if this means she thinks what quag is doing is scummy (and she can't clarify) but if she does the lack of vote is odd.

Then she gives her reads on several players. She has quite a few neutral reads and then a couple of leaning either way but she's unsure of. All in all it's pretty bad I think. She does provide some substanital reasoning for voting the tracker at the end, so it's not like she's incapable of doing it (providing content on players) either.

Her whole 'critical thinking' regarding the scum on the quag wagon wasn't really critical thinking at all as was pointed out. She then proceeds to babble for a few posts that's really just explaining her tracker vote.

She asks for a claim at L-3 (I believe). But stupid, but since Quag wasn't scum it doesn't seem like she was trying to save a buddy or anything so I've really no idea here.

That's it for day 1.
Her only day 2 post was coming out voting for the tracker for really poor reasoning. Trying to guess the set-up is stupid, and using one flip as a basis for your both is really weak.

There's also the odd exchange where Red says she's bringing 'critical thinking to the game' which baffles me, and I guess makes me think there's a better than average chance of them being scum together, trying to show your scumbuddies as actually scumhunting obviously makes them look good, and considering there was nothing remarkable in her posts well yeah. I also am not sure how he likes her player analysis post, but it seems we tend to disagree on quite a lot in terms of playstyle anyway so I guess if he has reasons I can't hold that against either of them. Or not too strongly at least.

EDFROST
It says Vi reviewed the set-up on the first page, click the link it brings you to Vi's profile

Hey Edfrost I just realised you've done pretty much nothing for me to get a read on you? I mean yeah, you interact with Tracker, but eh, that's about it early on.

Your vote on Mindgamer seems poor to me. Why is voting a believed power role a scum tell? It's pretty obvious that if he's voting for the tracker he doesn't believe them. Seems to be a disagreement = scummy kinda thing, which is obviously a poor road to go down, even if it does tend to happen.

Also lol u lazy bum. You went from wanting to analyse and discuss things to putting Mindgamer at L-1 with rather shoddy reasoning. (I'm not going to do a fake EBWOP, dw)

So it's alright for you to provide garbage on Mindgamer, but yet you're overly concerned and apparently unable to read that I posted stuff on you.

I disagree with Mindgamer, I don't think Edfrost has 'honest reasons' for being on your bandwagon at all. It looked like he just wanted to end the day after deciding he wouldn't get much flak for jumping on ya.

Anyway as I said most of the scumminess comes from the first player, angelmouse, the only thing there is I don't like about Edfrost is the mindgamer vote after saying there was a lot more to dicuss. Everything else is pretty much null, reading him in Iso didn't really change that. I see him and redcoyote as having a good chance of sharing a scum alignment too.

Idk if this is a incoherent babble or not, but to me it makes me think Edfrost is a good lynch. Certainly very confused by anyone calling him town in any way shape or form. He's da scum.

[Faraday]

I don't know if that's supposed to be a statement or a question. If it's a question, then no, it doesn't seem reasonable. Mindgamer's request looked pretty clear cut to me.

It was a statement.

And yeah he can speak for himself

I've also noticed AGar's unwillingness to really commit to one side or the other in my past couple of posts. He has been consistent though, I don't see him making posts that indicate he is going soft on Mindgamer.

I agree, but I don't think the second thing is necessarily a good thing, and the first is somewhat worrying.

Hey Faraday: My partner was writing the ~F posts and *I* understood what he meant.

I guess congratulations are in order or something, because I didn't have a fucking clue.

He asks for:

I meant points against me specifically or if you find my entire play to be a bunch of null tells and are basing your case purely upon AM's play.

Hey Edfrost w/o the F, if you're telling me this reffered to your player slot and not just edfrost then I'm really confused. He goes as far as ask if I find HIS play a bunch of null tells and find AM scummy. The distinction is there and it's obvious.

Perhaps he meant to ask for your player slot? But it in no way seems that way at all.

You've said that angel was scummy.

You didn't bring up any points as to why angel was scummy

so I could refute them if you had bothered to bring them up. You've said I didn't change your opinion one way or another; no reason as to why.

The bolded is a untrue. Do you disagree with my reasons or did you just not see them?
Also it's not up to me to provide reasoning as to why you didn't change my mind, if your posts are null and hers were scummy then obviously I'm going to see you as scumm.

You didn't read what I wrote either. I hear it's tech tho, amirit?

You haven't posted a damn thing against us until you said that you thought that angel was scummy.

Inaccurate.

Now like 2 RL days later you are finally getting the point now that we've closed in on a deadline again.

We were always closing in on a deadline champ, but thanks for trying.

[Faraday]

that post was way too long ^^

[Faraday]

apologies for the 4 posts in a row but i'm going to be probably v/la tomorrow and the most of the next day

[Faraday]

Did you not bother to read another 5 posts down the page? Or was angel's FoS an actual act that took a stand rather than mindgamer not looking for motives behind jumping at shadows that made "me" scummy?

First one, actually. I read in ISO and then read around if I felt I needed context.

Nope, mind is one of your top town reads and we're a top suspect.

Yerrr I'm voting you for one reason and one reason only.

'I wasn't defending tracker' isn't really true. Not that she's lying, but by attacking the attack I think she is defending tracker.

Chainsaw defense without a dead mafia isn't a chainsaw defense. If you're gonna bring up wiki tells, at least make sure they're accurate and apply to the situation. Thanks.

Actually what I didn't like there was the disavowal of responsibility from said defense. There's nothing wrong with defending a player, but have the balls to say so. Thanks.

]I'm glad that providing reasoning when voting is... null? in your opinion? I really don't get this part either. I still have neutral reads on player slots; and you're gonna criticize somebody over the same thing a couple pages into the game? OKAY.

Yes I am. And I'm sure you've lots of neutral's too, good for you.

Moving on to me: A scumtell (by my definition) is something that scum have a higher likelyhood of doing than town. There are varying degrees of how strong a scumtell is; but in my experience if the scum need to get rid of somebody they have two ways of doing it: killing and lynching. If you have too many targets that you want to kill, you obviously need to lynch said person. As town generally wants to keep their PR's alive (as they can get more information than plain vanillas), they usually don't vote them. Scum, however, do want to get rid of the PR's. Therefore, they try to get said PR lynched so they can't be implicated with information from a power role.

But The Tracker is probably not a PR, unless we've got some crazy gambit going by a SK and the mod loves killing roles. It's not like The Tracker could actually do anything to harm Mindgamer if he's scum, unless of course he's the SK I guess, but I don't really think the set-up lends itself to a SK from what we've seen.

I also already covered what I wanted to discuss with the rest of the game. We both had Mindgamer as our top suspect; for several of the same reasons. My partner had some experience with Tracker so he wanted to talk to him to help focus on the game and gauge his discussion in person. I was willing to vote for Mindgamer right away but I was waiting for him to catch up and solidify his reads and who he wanted to question. So he talked to Tracker a bit and then I voted for who we both concurred to be most likely to be scum.

I'm not saying talking to the tracker was bad, but it seems you didn't a lot other than that. Then you moved on to Mindgamer for the most part and are now engaging in me. Also the vote felt like it came out of no-where.

I adore the fact that you're advocating lynching a *null* read because he (I) has (have) a chance at being a partner to somebody that you think is suspicious.

You're a scum read overall, try and keep up, my posts for the most part aren't that hard to follow.

Finally, it's not my issue that you can't (or don't want to) get a read on me. If you do, ask me questions instead of calling me scum for unknown reasons until today.

When I came into the game I was concentrated on getting scum lynched, I thought that was redcoyote and really my goal was to convince the town to lynch him. From then I'd have the whole of the next day to talk to you, now obviously we have more time now so that's fine.

One last thing I want to mention. I hate how mindgamer finally switched up his play when he was pressed for a claim. If he was vanilla, why didn't he play this way throughout the game? It obviously would've been better for the town, might've lead to a better lynch than Quag day 1 because of poking and prodding. However; he wasn't tenacious or this well articulated until he knew what meta he had to play to today. I think he was trying to keep his options open with his meta until he realized that he didn't have anything set up to fake-claim. No breadcrumbs, nothing. Now that he was forced into claiming vanilla he's suddenly helpful? Sorry if I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.

I think this is a huge stretch. It's possible he was just lazy, and it's indeed far more likely from where I'm sitting. It probably helps me that I've done something similar as town and got lynched for it, or at least I think it was similar. The threat of a lynch does a lot to get people to change their ways, really.

Who are your top 3 reads for scum atm?

Also I'm unsure what to do now that edfrost doesn't take my opinion srsly.

Of course the slot can change from player to player. Different people can give off different reads. It's entirely possible to have a scum read on a player and then not on the replacement. Doesn't look like this is the case here for Faraday, but I've been in games where a replacement has basically been so pro-town that any suspicion of the original player was dismissed as poor play on their part

Well yeah, but if someone's been really scummy and you think they're scum you can't just give the replacement a clean slate either, it shouldn't happen. Ignoring everything the person in the slot did before is just stupid as you're minimizing your chance to get a read on that slot.

[Faraday]

There's "only one reason that you're voting me"; so what's the rest of it? Fluff? I've pointed out what either should be a null-tell or influence your position on me towards town or mindgamer towards scum.

Um cmon? That was obviously sarcasm @ the one reason thing, not everythng needs an eye rolling smiley. And I meant to say would be voting you, oops! I'm aware where my vote is, actually.

Also, since you've stated that I've basically been null/done nothing to change a read on a previous player, let's do a similar search for angel, mouse, or angelmouse or just AM to find what you thought was so scummy about ..her?

Wait, I previously thought I hadn't mentioned her? What's changed, decided to actually go back and check?

The Joke thing apparently is a big deal; but it doesn't apply to mindgamer; even though we did it first and he copied us? Ok....

Uh of course it applies? It's scummy, but I don't think he's scum overall. I'm not going to go through and list the scum tells of someone I think is town, so what exactly is your problem.

A FoS is scummy on page 2. I don't know about you but angel was rather newbie, and read like it. She had 230 (about) posts in the almost 2 years that she's been here. So since you're adjusting for general playstyle [that should be taken into consideration.

Except these are two completely different scenarios. Overdefensiveness is not me adjusting to anything, it's not a tell, at all barring some weird surruounding factors, I guess, but I can't think of anything right now.

Having neutral reads isn't scummy; at least if you're not scum, right? You said you have neutral reads so why is it, exactly, that makes angel's neutral reads scummy and not yours?

The sheer amount of them and unwillingess to take a stand on people.

I know exactly why opinion changed on you; but my point was that the radical playstyle difference timing was rather opportunistic from my perspective. Obviously it's unfortunate if you're town; but from my experience it's not hard to juggle two games. I'm in... 4? right now and I've been prodded once in all of them (and I was just killed in a 5th that I was dealing with as well.

This is just stupid. What you can handle =/= what everyone else can handle. That should be obvious, so I don't see what your point here is.



Hey cruelty what was that game you played with Amished, I don't believe I've played with him before (?). And only thing with rayfrost completed was realistic, which he didn't last long in.

Anyway see ya tomorrow some time, hopefully.

[Faraday]

Who are your top 3 reads for scum atm?

^^ please @ Ed.

[Faraday]

Home and stuff properly.

I'd actually be ok with a Faraday lynch since the Mindgamer wagon stalled hardcore. I still don't like it happening, but I'm feeling like I might have to compromise here to make things work out.

Also, for anyone who hasn't played with each of these two characters - both are very clever, skilled players. It's a pretty big threat that they're combined.

Although, RayFrost kinda sucks sometimes, let's hope that's one of these times

What exactly are your current reads?

You've indicated that you'd lynch me or RC if it came down to it and are voting for mindgamer, is there like anyone else you'd lynch.

Thanks for telling us to keep aware of the Hydra too, I hadn't noticed.

ell oh ell, reasoning is tech, mindgamer.

cruelty, who are your top three scum reads and why?

~ F

Not answering my question FTL

Plus I'm pretty sure mindgamer has already given reasons for his reads in his earlier post.

I don't know why this didn't register but I attribute *major* differences in reads as either scummy or a power role of some sort. Such as Faraday's stance that cruelty was townie for Faraday and one of the top three suspects for both Ray and I. I initially assumed that he was a cop with an innocent on cruel OR a guilty on RedCoyote. Either way, I pegged him for a cop with a result. Then with his stance on me vs. mindgamer; a cop would have more sense than that as they're pro-town and townies are generally consistent in their stances.

I don't quite understand how you think me being a cop would make all our reads different, surely there'd be one you'd be confused about and then that's it?

Now, go back to my first point about Vi reviewing the setup. She's a fan of having millers without cops (game I linked to). There's a doc DEAD already (rest Quag's soul). However, the twist comes in when it's a CPR doc (kills if the person isn't targeted in the night) that had been lynched. Now, there's three ways a CPR doc can play, using their killing power like a vig, using it as a risky regular doc, or not acting and waiting for a legit power role to show up and claim to protect them that night. In two of these situations; it would give something the FBI agent to be paranoid about (two kills on pro-town people (for the risky protect), a kill on a pro-town and an anti-town (vig-like)).

Obviously (to me) the optimal way to play CPR doc is indeed like a vig, and I think if you're balancing a game you have to sort of assume this, or at least I would anyway. I'd consider it a killing role for the purpose of the game, and I agree that there's no SK in the game, (also note a tracker/fbi agent would make the hypothethical SK's job pretty hard.

Mindgamer (3) AGar, horrordude0215, The Tracker,
RedCoyote (3) Hoopla, Faraday, cruelty
cruelty (3) RedCoyote, hitogoroshi Edfrost
EdFrost (1) Mindgamer

Is the current vote count from what I can see. Unfortunately while there are ten alive, we really only have an available 8 votes to move, this means 6/8 people playing must agree to lynch anyone (unless it's Mindgamer since there's votes already there) If you factor in that the person isn't going to vote for themselves, then basically 6/7 people are gonna be needed to vote for cruelty and Redcoyote.

The reason I'm saying this is I agree that it's time to start looking at the lynch. We have less than 2 days untill deadline, and obviously time for possible claims etc etc. and we need to have a full majority by that point too.


I don't suppose anyone wants to lynch Agar do they?

Top 3 people you want to lynch from everyone gogogo:

Mine are: Red/Ed/Agar

[Faraday]

I don't see scum fighting as hard as he is against who he is. Of course, quite frankly, I also don't see a pro-town player coming up with a list like Red/Ed/Agar

I don't understand the first reason, really. Also didn't you say you thought there were some reasons might call RC scum, so I don't see why that stance would be beyond the realms of imposibillity for you to understand. Edfrost I get it, he's a shining beacon of towniness for you. Agar confuses me though, he's been mostly on the fringes of the game so I don't understand why you have a town read on him at all.

Dear Hoopla, Faraday, and AGar:

your next post either has a vote for cruelty or an explanation why {RC,Mindgamer} is a better lynch today. This would have to include cruelty's merits along with {RC,Mindgamer}'s scuminess.

love,
hito

I think he's town. I don't think RC is town. Mindgamer is probably town too.

I'll be on later to see what's happening, and switch my vote if needed. Have labs soon till 6. 18 hours left till deadline. I'm assuming everyone can be around today?

[Faraday]

I think he's town.

why

Strong gut read on him.

My internet is inconsistent. I'll definitely be on before deadline tomorrow morning though (I have a 9 lab, so unless I decide not to go

I'll have net access.

I prefer a Mindgamer lynch slightly over cruelty (mindgamer has claimed, at least)

[Faraday]

i'm going to bed, fucking knackered.. since a redcoyote lynch isn't gonna happen, it seems.

unvote vote mindgamer.

i guess i'll be on before deadline.

[Faraday]

I think we should mass claim, so yeah agreed.

I guess we could no lynch, but it only gives us a theoretical advantage really. In practise I don't think it'll help much here.

[Faraday]

Popcorn? Nobody is cleared at this point. I think we're comfortable nom'ing Faraday or cruelty to go first.

Popcorn is fine with me. Don't really mind who goes first, yourselves or red would be my preference but it's not a big deal.

[Faraday]

'nilla here.


Nacho next plz.

[Faraday]

i've a shit ton of college work to get through up untill saturday basically.

v/la untill then, pretty much. sorry!

[Faraday]

Snow White should claim, pronto.


Anyway I don't believe Ed's claim.
I don't think we'd have more gimmicky 'vanillas' than actualy vanillas. Admittedly there's very few things he could have claimed that'd have made me believe him so meh.

Ed did you say who you protected Night 1? Sorry if I missed it.

I mean, talk about a smoking gun. You're going to tell me the entire town lynched Quagmire? No, I don't buy it. I won't buy it. cruelty and Faraday have to say that's the case, they've both supported one another throughout Day 2 (unless one of them has a revelation now that I've made this post that is).
Even if it isn't both cruelty and Faraday, I will eat my hat if at least one of them isn't scum. And I'd bet you dollars to donuts that hito is a second scum (if cruelty and Faraday aren't scum together).

Uh, no. I'm not going to tell you the entire town lynched Quagmire. You're scum, remember? Also your reluctance was made clear, but that didn't stop you voting him.

I should be clear that I think vote count analysis is generally pretty useless and I've never seen it used very well by anyone (apart from DGB). Mith's /in-vitational pretty much re-inforced that for me, really but anyway.

Lol will you upload said hat-eating on youtube? (of course this probably doesn't apply if you're scum, rit?)

Anyway :

Scum:
Redcoyote
Edfrost

+ 1 of Nacho/Hito.

I believe Hoopla's claim for reasons previously said by other people and am in the same boat with The TrackerWhite's.

Vote RedCoyote

It seems like none of the 'voting bloc' are up for changing there minds. I don't think that means a whole lot as at worst I believe 2 of them are scum, possibly all 3.

[Faraday]

Uh, no. I'm not going to tell you the entire town lynched Quagmire. You're scum, remember? Also your reluctance was made clear, but that didn't stop you voting him.

Come on, Faraday! Talk about forcing out an argument. You know darn well that if I hadn't have joined the Quagmire lynch that either someone else would've (there was, like, 20 hours left in the day?), or we would've gotten a no lynch. I was in no way unclear about my position, and in fact had made that reluctance very clear throughout D1.

So I'm the only scum on that wagon? Or, wait, it was possibly me and hito. Because Flare's Quagmire vote was just so darned townie:

I assumed you were making the point that your relauctance made you less likely to be scum? If that's the case then the same idea would apply to flare? (And in all honesty I can't answer what he's thinking, and I'm not sure he could either )

[Faraday]

Are Nacho and Snow_Bunny around?

[Faraday]

I'm not asking you to, but surely you must acknowledge Flare for being more two-sided than I was.

Yeah I'd probably acknowledge that. But I think his newbieness was a lot of that.

[Faraday]

I still have some reading to do but

FYI im vanilla.

If enough people i find town tell me where it is im to place my vote i will abide.

Unvote Vote Snow White

1 scum down!

There's NO pro-town motivation to lie about your role during a massclaim. I find it likely you'd seen everyone's claims and thought vanilla was safe, not realising that your predecessor had already fake claimed

[Faraday]

Ok, so Hoopla, Faraday, cruelty: Do you really think that RC would lay that kind of trap as a scumbuddy? Will you finally move on with your tunneling (specifically cruelty)?

Well the thing is, would you honestly expect ANYONE to fall into that trap?
It's a fair point I guess. Ugh I'll have to re-read to check what I think. The tracker's flip is odd as I think nearly *everyone* believed the claim by now, didn't they?

[Faraday]

Is there anything else that needs to be discussed today?

I'd not mind some more content from Nacho, but I prefer to lynch scum and move on. The whole 'discussion = good' argument is grand, but there's not a whole lot more to say, is there?

[Faraday]

Nice pencils, Hoopla.

[Faraday]

I can give more content, since I am here... anything in specific you want me to comment on?

Nah lol, I was just wondering if you'd anything to comment on in the part you missed.

[Faraday]

when we wagon cruelty tomorrow, will it be awesome or extremely awesome? please show work

Do you think a cruelty lynch is best tomorrow?

[Faraday]

Almost certainly. I plan to diagram out the relationships between the remaining players tomorrow. (why tomorrow? simple: I'm lazy and I want to have one less person to worry about)

Ok.

[Faraday]

I <3 diagrams.

[Faraday]

I was indeed a town FBI agent.

[Faraday]

If Snow is town it's game over, I'm pretty sure.

if she's scum and WIFOM'ing then I still don't know how it effects Ed/hoopla. We have had a doc enabler flip, so maybe Tracker got lucky? Idk.

[Faraday]

Ed/Nacho/Me/Hito/Hoopla = 5/

[Faraday]

Heh good game all.

I was reading the thread before I got my PM and had to change some of my stances. For instance I thought Hoopla's placing of the question @ Quagmire was pretty dodgy. It took pretty much all attention of her miller claim too, which was good.

I decided I'd just throw out a load of shit for the most part, I wanted to slow the mindgamer wagon down and connect myself to one other player in case I was ever lynched. Hence the cruelty read.

I think Snow White's claim was bad, but I don't think it'd have mattered. Cruelty was this day's most likely lynch anyway and even if I'd been lynched I don't think my buddies would have been found.

[Faraday]

Well doesn't suck for us, I guess. Although it was a rather anti climactic end.