Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[SensFan]

Vote: Hoopla

[SensFan]

So, I'm not intentionally lurking, just out of town visiting my girlfriend. I'll be back home on Tuesday.

Thanks for your co-operation!

[SensFan]

I'll catch up tonight.

Sorry guys.

[SensFan]

Not asking replacement at all, since as I said to everyone a few days ago, I'm back now.

Or are charter and Hoopla just trying to get me out of the game for some other reason?

[SensFan]

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

for blatant misrepresenting and false implications here.

I don't see myself moving this vote in the near future.

[SensFan]

Ok, so Hoopla and CoCo are the two scummiest people so far, closely followed by Col.C.

Hoopla: The shananigans with trying to get both myself and that Translation Party person lynched for weak reasons. In my case, it was something I posted in MD ages ago that was very obviously not the case here, in an attempt to make me look ridiculously scummy while she knew I would be unable to defend myself. In the TP-guy's case, it was saying he should be lynched just for using TP; should be be smacked for it? Absolutely, but lynches are too valuable to lynch someone just for that.

CoCo: Overreacting to pretty much everything that's happened of note in this game, and playing as if Scum are complete idiots and will only make ridiculously dumb plays. Assuming the Hoopla wagon was scum-fuelled, and the "early reports" thing, for instance.

[SensFan]

I specifically asked to join this game before the original even started, due to a few of the players.

I don't see how a week's V/LA is a huge deal, and I don't see why I could have forseen needing to get a new laptop.

But that's all completely beside the point, and you know it. I'm back now, so any attempts to talk about whether I should have joined, or whether I should have been replaced serve only to pollute the thread.

[SensFan]

Sensfan, why did you jump on the bandwagon at the beginning of the game? If you'd been reading the thread since you "came back," I find it odd you haven't commented on it yet. Even though I have mentioned a few times it made me suspicious of you, but couldn't do anything about it until you returned.

Second, new laptop? I thought you were visiting your girlfriend...

I'm still mostly V/LA until tomorrow or Monday, but I'm near a computer for the time being and will be reading/discussing until I leave again.

I jumped on the wagon because it was a nice big wagon to jump on.
I went to the States to visit my girlfriend the week I said I was, then got back on Tuesday to find out FutureShop still hadn't fixed my laptop.

---

Seriously, folks, stop trying to pretend I was lurking. This is getting very ocncerning, since 3 of you have now done it, and even a cursory glance shows I posted almost none on-site at all.

[SensFan]

Because its "a wagon so early in the game".

[SensFan]

Because its "a wagon so early in the game".

So? During a random vote stage, there are 11 other players to vote for (including yourself), why jump on a bandwagon? That doesn't make your vote very random, does it?

I never claimed my vote was random; I don't believe in random votes and will vote anyone who casts one.

[SensFan]

Than, I am lead to believe you jumped on the wagon solely to get Hoopla lynched. Am I correct?

No, you are not. To quote Tally, stop being obtuse.

[SensFan]

No, you are not. To quote Tally, stop being obtuse.

Okay, aside from "being a big wagon" why did you jump on it? Its a simple question and I can't believe you haven't answered it.

Because it was a big wagon, and I wanted a bigger wagon.

In a perfect world, someone else would have placed the L-1 vote right after the L-2 vote was placed.

[SensFan]

Hoopla: The shananigans with trying to get both myself and that Translation Party person lynched for weak reasons. In my case, it was something I posted in MD ages ago that was very obviously not the case here, in an attempt to make me look ridiculously scummy while she knew I would be unable to defend myself. In the TP-guy's case, it was saying he should be lynched just for using TP; should be be smacked for it? Absolutely, but lynches are too valuable to lynch someone just for that.

That is such a blatant misrepresentation and you know it. I was never pushing to get you lynched or Haru. Reread the translation party exchange again and you'll see my vote was there get answers for his anti-town play.

I have no problem with V/LA's, but you were gone for 11 days, not 7 which you asked for. I understand external problems, but how are we supposed to know you want extra time if you don't tell us?

Except its not a misrep. You said something about how we should lynch Haru because he wasn't going to contribute or something, didn't you?
As for me, you strongly implied to anyone that doesn't have time to manually search the forums that I wasn't actually on V/LA at all, which would be ridiculously scummy for a time period as long as a week.

[SensFan]

To clarify that last part, you took the time to look up that one post I made in a MD thread a while ago, while not looking up the fact I wasn't posting at all on the site.

[SensFan]

In a perfect world, someone else would have placed the L-1 vote right after the L-2 vote was placed.

Wait... what? SensFan, maybe I can understand this better if you answer this question. What, in your opinion, is the point of an early bandwagon? Secondly, would you be content if Hoopla was lynched right away during the day one phase in the beginning of the game?

An early bandwagon gets fun reactions, like CoCo and company's.
I would absolutely be happy with a hammer placed that early, it would be a guaranteed Scum.[/quote]

[SensFan]

Attacking Sens and Harumafuki was legit (I finally understood your post after I replaced in - my god I read that 15 times not knowing what on earth you were talking about!)

Neither was at all legit, especially the one where she took the time to look up an old thread to accuse me of faking V/LA without taking the time to notice I'm gone from the site.

It's not that I'm accusing you of posting too little, I think Sens takes the cake on that one

Why are you implying I am or was lurking?

[SensFan]

Vote: CoCo

Link me to this 807 game you're referring, then explain what in that game gives you the right to act anti-Town here and expect us to let you live.

[SensFan]

And it's entirely legitimate to question whether or not your VLA was legit given you've said it's part of your meta that you'd be prepared to lie about it to benefit your game.

Except its not at all legitimate, since a very basic search shows I was completely gone from the site. Not posting in any of my 4 ongoing games (one of which is a Newb game), not posting in any of my ongoing MishMash commitments, including the game I'm modding. Comments in that MishMash game about me being gone. My sig indicating I was gone. There was no reason at all to even suspect I would be faking it, and so the mention of that is incredibly scummy.

And attacking Haru was legit because his posts were actively illegible, you can't play the game with people like that, as hilarious as they were.

There was nothing at all wrong with Haru, for numerous reasons, some of with Tally pointed out. Just like I wouldn't lynch someone posting just in emoticons, as long as they were still voting and contributing.

Not at all liking this post from SC, for reasons completely unrelated to those quoting; just gives me a vibe of massive amounts of noise, hoping to obscure the fact the little signal there is isn't very pertinent.

[SensFan]

Haru's writing and reasoning was utterly illegible. You're either arguing for the sake of it or arguing because you don't like that I thought it legit to attack you.

Haru's votes were legible, Haru's suspicions were legible.

Speaking of which, you say that there was nothing wrong with Haru because he was still voting and contributing, yet my long posts with detailed reads on most of the game, fresh reasoning and thread-based evidence and transparent stances are little signal. Maybe I should just post in emoticons.

I'd prefer someone posting like Haru did to someone posting like your mammoth post was, yes.

[SensFan]

Sens - if you prefer haru's posts then we are an an impasse. I certainly wouldn't and I hink90% of the players on site wouldn't either.

Apparently the '90%' is not on the side you think it is.

Either way, who do you think is scum or town? Double points for not making all of your reads depend on just the issues directly surrounding you.

I won't say who is Town, since that's one of the most anti-Town actions you can do in Mafia; you might as well just tell the Scum who they should be killing. As for who is Scum, I've said it before; do you read my posts? At the moment, probably something like: CoCo, Hoopla, Col.C, SC are in the top tier of scumminess, in no particular order.

[SensFan]

Not at all liking this post from SC, for reasons completely unrelated to those quoting; just gives me a vibe of massive amounts of noise, hoping to obscure the fact the little signal there is isn't very pertinent.

How exactly? He's made a clear stance on many players and a lot of the theory debate.

Sens, I'm usually anti-walls and hate players that waffle on, but it's hardly a pattern from SC. When you consider he's missed 10 pages from replacing in, I'd say this is tolerable now. I think there is a balance people should aim for.

I know, and I'm not calling it a pattern. But I'm saying I found that post to be a load of junk.

Notice how I haven't made any post anywhere near that long, and no one complained that I didn't comment enough on what I missed?

[SensFan]

French, so obv-scum

In all seriousness, a little more wordy than I would like, but with a good amount of information, so I can live with it. Not a fan of her not voting, and that's probably the biggest blemish against her, but I'm willing to assume that's a playstyle thing, largely since I'm too lazy to manually search, and that's nowhere near policylynch-worthy.

leChat, can you link to to your 5 most recent completed games?

[SensFan]

But either way, my posting style is here to stay so not much point going on about it.

attacking Haru was legit because his posts were actively illegible, you can't play the game with people like that, as hilarious as they were.

Nice to see you are so consistent on whether or not people can be questioned on their playstyles!

As for you thinking I don't contribute enough, my posting style is here to stay so not much point going on about it. See how easy that is, scumbag?

[SensFan]

Also, you do realize that haru's is ME, don't you? So if your point is I'm being hypocritical for attacking my previous incarnation I'd love to hear the scum motivation behind it.

The fact that you're being hypocritical is scummy regardless of whether it references a previous-you or not. It's still a blatant hypocrisy, which is the definition of a scumtell.

[SensFan]

cam, can you give me something to defend against, maybe? I mean, it just feels like you added my name to your lynch-list without giving me anything I can defend agaist.

Other than that, I agree with about half of your list, disagreeing with the rest.

[SensFan]

Vote: CoCo

Link me to this 807 game you're referring, then explain what in that game gives you the right to act anti-Town here and expect us to let you live.

[SensFan]

Sens, how were Haru's posts legible?

I could tell who he was voting.
I could tell who he was suspecting.
I could tell who he wasn't suspecting.
I didn't need to read novels.

Yeah, I'd say he was an improvement over some people in this game.

[SensFan]

Could you tell why he was suspecting the players he did?

Its not crucial that we get cases and analysis from all 12 players in the game, especially on Day 1.

[SensFan]

I disagree. It is absolutely crucial to the town that we get cases and analysis from everyone, especially Day 1. Its where townies get the majority of our reads! I cannot fathom why you'd defend someone that offered nothing to the town other than a vote.

Votes are very important, but analysis is doubly so.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Why would you need someone making cases to read them? If they're forthcoming about who they suspect, and maintain a solid voting track record, it makes them so much easier to read, since they can't use fluff to distract people.

[SensFan]

I'm starting to get a little disturbed that several people are now willing to lynch me, and yet none have given me a single thing I can defend against.

[SensFan]

I'm not a fan of the charter wagon right now, in no small part because I think there's at the very least one Scum in {SC, Col.C, CoCo}.

[SensFan]

I'm not a fan of the charter wagon right now, in no small part because I think there's at the very least one Scum in {SC, Col.C, CoCo}.

Why those three?

I'm pretty sure if you read my posts you would know why I suspect those three.

[SensFan]

Read me in iso. Control+F "coco" or "sc". That gives you the answer to two of them.

[SensFan]

I don't find your vote scummy. I find you scummy, and so (when combined with 3/4 votes on someone being from people I find scummy), it gives me pause on whether its a good wagon.

[SensFan]

Ah, in that case Kublai's mental facilities are fine (although as if not unvote replacements) but Sens' argument now definitely makes less sense. He didn't think Haru was scummy, so Haru's vote for charter would have been a positive for the charter wagon, yes?

I didn't know who placed the vote any more than you did. I just saw the votecount.

[SensFan]

Sens - what do you feel about the charter wagon now?

Rather better. Not only is that one less questionable person on it, but one less person in general.

[SensFan]

Sens - aren't those points counter to each other? On one hand you're happier thinking he might be scum because there's one less scummy person on the wagon, but on the other hand you're glad that the wagon is lessening onhim, presumably because you think him town?

No.

I'm happy that the wagon has less scummy people on it, since it lessens the chance of it being scum-fueled.
I'm happy that the wagon has less people on it, since I think the logic is weak, and so less people means higher chance of different points of view than a scum-fueled wagon.

[SensFan]

I'm not a fan of the charter wagon right now

, in no small part because I think there's at the very least one Scum in {SC, Col.C, CoCo}.

SC, do you bother to read my posts?

[SensFan]

I would say that I'm pretty sure there's 3 Scum or more, that's not a stretch at all.

[SensFan]

Also, Col.Cathart asking him to claim after saying he doesn't find Peabody scummy made my scumdar go berserk with this poor attempt at rolefishing.

*facepalm*

So far in any single game I played on mafia scum, when someone is going at L-1 there's a natural question about claim. And it sometimes cames from someone who's not voting for that person. It's a popular practice around the board, as far as I can see, so if it's different, then I'm sorry, I'm still kinda new to this mafiascum style of game. I don't see it as anything scummy at all.

Its only time to ask for a claim if 7 people (usually the 6 on the wagon, and one off the wagon) agree he should be hammered unless his claim can save him.

[SensFan]

I think there's either 2 or 3 scum in this game (with a predilection towards 2),

Why would you possibly think 2:10 is balanced, when just about every Mini out there is 3:9, 3:8:1, or 2:2:8?

[SensFan]

My vote on Talitha is because for this entire game her focus has been primarily on defending herself rather than scumhunting. She's so concerned about defending herself that every time someone attacks her she's in and posting within a small amount of time, which shows she's following the game. I haven't seen many if any posts which read as town this game.

Her vote on me supports the lack of interest in genuinely finding scum, I think. Voting the person calling her out as scum is already a bit meh, but the reasons given seems to be my reluctance to vote peabody. She's prepared to entertain the idea whether or not peabody flips scum (in one scenario I'm bussing, in another scenario I'm avoiding a town lynch). Of course - she's supposedly town, so if I were scum moving off a townie I would have moved onto a different townie. So why she'd think I'd do that as scum is beyond me.

I really, really like my Serial Clergyman vote though. Unfortunately I may not get a lot of support in it, because he's nice and posts more than me and appears to be playing as a good townie. My opinion: a wolf in sheep's clothing.

This is rubbish. It's the too townie fallacy. If someone appears to be playing as a good townie, generally they are a good townie.

Plus she left room for a hammer on Peabody. Talitha continues to look like a good lynch imo.

For the record, I agree with Tally. I don't think she's lurking intentionally, and I don't think she's OMGUSing, and I do think she's scumhunting.
Oh, and I think you're scum. And no, its not the "too townie" fallacy, its the "drown out the stuff in walls and people tend to subconsciously place you as town".

[SensFan]

D1 is always very random despite what anyone says.

This. The goal of D1 is not, in my opinion, to lynch Scum.

[SensFan]

I think there's either 2 or 3 scum in this game (with a predilection towards 2),

Why would you possibly think 2:10 is balanced, when just about every Mini out there is 3:9, 3:8:1, or 2:2:8?

For what it's worth, of the ~10 completed 2:10 Mini Normal games, the town has never won one. These games usually have no or very little town powerroles, but I thought the general consensus was that these games were balanced toward scum.

No. That's not correct.

Of the ~10 completed

mountanous

2:20 Mini Games, the Town has never won once. Many people feel this is statistically insignificant, due to low sample size, since the set-up is balanced in theory.

[SensFan]

Oh, and I think you're scum. And no, its not the "too townie" fallacy, its the "drown out the stuff in walls and people tend to subconsciously place you as town".

Constantly repeating that I'm scum for the same posting style I display in every game isn't as useful as you seem to think it is. If I was deliberately obsfucating you might have a point, but I think I've been pretty clear with my reads and why. Would you like me to do my normal posts then directly follow it with a Sensfan-post that fits in a text message?

Am I not allowed to give you my reasons for calling you Scum? I'm not going to meta you, since search is down, but I don't particularily care if you do it in all games (and I doubt you do); making massive posts like, that jumbo one that caught my eye, that contain very little information, in between all the fluff, are ridiculously scummy.

[SensFan]

I think there's either 2 or 3 scum in this game (with a predilection towards 2),

Why would you possibly think 2:10 is balanced, when just about every Mini out there is 3:9, 3:8:1, or 2:2:8?

For what it's worth, of the ~10 completed 2:10 Mini Normal games, the town has never won one. These games usually have no or very little town powerroles, but I thought the general consensus was that these games were balanced toward scum.

No. That's not correct.

Of the ~10 completed

mountanous

2:20 Mini Games, the Town has never won once. Many people feel this is statistically insignificant, due to low sample size, since the set-up is balanced in theory.

Since mountainous 2:10 is probably scum-biased (even if it's not), there are plenty of conceivable 2:10 set-ups that could be balanced. Just throw in a powerrole or two. Just because a 2 scum game isn't common, doesn't mean it isn't possible. The fact the first game was only 2 scum, probably means this game is more likely to have 2 scum than any other mini normal chosen at random.

I'm not convinced the first game had 2 Scum and 10 Town.

Seriously, Town wins a good amount of 3:9 set-ups, so why you guys are assuming this is 2:10 is beyond me, and almost seems suspicious.

[SensFan]

I'm not convinced the first game had 2 Scum and 10 Town.

Seriously, Town wins a good amount of 3:9 set-ups, so why you guys are assuming this is 2:10 is beyond me, and almost seems suspicious.

How are you not convinced...? Peabody and mathcam were the names left off the initial player list. This is how it was discovered they were scum. Peabody has even said, it was only him and mathcam.

And yet you don't know that everyone else was Town.

I think there's either 2 or 3 scum in this game (with a predilection towards 2),

Why would you possibly think 2:10 is balanced, when just about every Mini out there is 3:9, 3:8:1, or 2:2:8?

And I am saying 2:10 can just as easily be balanced.

I'm not convinced the first game had 2 Scum and 10 Town.

Seriously, Town wins a good amount of 3:9 set-ups, so why you guys are assuming this is 2:10

is beyond me, and almost seems suspicious.

What does town winning a lot of 3:9 set-ups have to do with this set-up? The fact that Kublai's initial game was 2:10 probably means that this game now, has a higher chance than usual of it being 2:10.

I guess I need to be more clear; I don't believe this set-up is balanced if there are 10 Town. At all.

[SensFan]

I do not, and will not, at all support a Tally lynch.

[SensFan]

You're right. I was just using an example of her appeals. I'm sure she does have kids and bring RL stuff is probably uncalled for.

But my point stands.

No, actually, it doesn't. "I have kids" isn't an appeal at all, its an explanation for why she doesn't post as much as some of the rest of us. Just like "I was on vacation" wasn't an appeal.

I'm not liking your blatant push at a TallyWagon, especially when I don't remember you having ever said anything about my excuse of being on vacation.

[SensFan]

LOL!
Charter and Talitha are now ignoring me! Yay!

You can now add me to that list as well.

[SensFan]

Personally I'd celebrate that we got rid of someone who is unreadable (in more ways than one) and is a huge distraction.

QFT.

Should I be lynched and flip town, logically it would follow that I had vague and/or good reasons for the various votes I've made. That, good sir, is valuable town info.

*If anyone thought you had good logic, you wouldn't have been lynched.
*If you are as smart as you claim to be, you're Scum for playing so dumbly.
*Being Town does not equal being right

Do you need more reasons why this is scummy, or are 3 distinct ones enough?

my meta shows my late game play is very strong.

Once again, if you are even an average-level player, you're obvscum, since you've been FAR below that level.

[SensFan]

Vote: CoCo

[SensFan]

Like 5 people in a row agreed with Tally about CoCo being a good lynch. Why aren't we lynching him?

[SensFan]

I'm definatively willing to differ to Peabody, if that's what people want. I want a lynch, and I want one ASAP. I plan on rereading D1 at least once, probably a few times, when we have some flips, and we're almost certainly past the point of diminishing returns at this point.

Hoopla has 'corrected' herself considerably in my mind, to the point I no longer find her scummier than average. I don't really see where she's coming from about me supposedly becoming a lot better with flips, though. To be honest, I'm very lost in this game; I usually spend the early game getting people to do or say stuff that becomes gold later, and I use those things.

Anyways, I'm willing to lynch CoCo, Peabody, or Cathart. Preferably ASAP.

Unvote, Vote: Peabody

That's L-1, folks. I support someone off the wagon asking for a claim, with intentions to hammer.

[SensFan]

You're contributing regularily. I still think you're scummy, but I'm happy to give you at least another day; similar to how I think you feel about me.

[SensFan]

Considering I'm off the wagon

and happen to be reasonably against Peabody being scum. I'll go ahead and say claim or die Peabody.

Whoa.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

What's the hold-up? There are now 7 people either voting for Peabody or willing to have Peabody hammered. That's a majority, and if it weren't for the fact a claim might save him, CoCo would have hammered by now.

[SensFan]

I absolutely 100% support a Peabody hammer ASAP.
He is very clearly stalling for time. No Town player would not claim if they had any claim worth shit right now; someone placed the L-1 vote and was comfortable with a claim-or-die, then someone off the wagon gave the claim-or-die.
He's stalling.
Hammer the scumbag.
Especially after the scumilicious softclaim.

[SensFan]

Step 1 - We hammer the scummy scum scum.
Step 2 - We refuse the drink the oh so tempting wine he has offered us

[SensFan]

I'm going to need to reread both Peabody and Tally, with their alignments being public knowledge. I'll be back later with that.

[SensFan]

Why do you think I'm scum?
Why do you think Cathart is town?

He doesn't. Please read his post.

[SensFan]

statistically, lynching scum D1 doesn't improve town's win percentage)

Really? That doesn't sound right. [citation please]

Doesn't sound too far off. I know that Town win percentage plummets if one of the two Scum is killed N0, since there's no connections between the Scum to look for.

[SensFan]

Cam, that's assuming random lynches and NKs, which plain doesn't happen.

As far as my claim, I can show you one game. Day 1 opened with 1 Scum, 1 Town Suicide Bomber, and 7 Townies. In the pre-game Night (which was called N1), Scum shot a Townie and I (a Suicide Bomber) blew up a Scum.
The lone Scum survived to the end and won, despite the numbers supposedly being against him. In the postgame conversation, the Scum that survived said "I was sad that my partner was bombed so early, but then it made the game much easier for me", with the Mod (Glork) saying "A lot of success in scumhunting comes from being able to link scums together. Without true power roles that becomes pretty difficult when there aren't scum to link."

So yes, Scum being dead early is not necessarily a good thing.

[SensFan]

I've been busy.

I'll be back here tonight.

[SensFan]

I just did a quick site-wide search, now that it's back up, and I have some unfortunate news.

As far as I can tell, Peabody is not alive in any games at the moment. Further, unless I've overlooked something, this is his very first game as Scum. As much as it sucks (especially for Vaya), and it goes partly against the spirit of the game, I really do think she needs to be lynched here.

Firstly, I don't think a first-time Scum, especially one that is obviously a fairly new player, will have the sense to fake something like that. This is amplified given Peabody doesn't strike me as the type to have read past games or anything, and so I very much doubt he has ever even been exposed to that sort of behaviour. It's much more likely he was just excited to play his first time as Scum, and got overly upset when his partner bussed him.
Secondly, whether we like it or not, this WIFOM will hang over us until the end of the game, and I certainly don't think anyone here is comfortable not lynching Vaya in a LyLo scenario, given the situation. Since she will need to be lynched anyways, might as well be sooner rather than later, especially given that later lynches are better for the Town.
Thirdly, regardless of whether she is Scum or not, this will be an incredibly useful lynch. If she flips Scum, either we won or we know that anyone else in that scumgroup didn't bus Peabody. If she flips Town, we know Peabody was a hell of a lot more cunning and knowledgeable (although ethicly-questionable) than it appears, and we'll have a better idea of how to look through his posts for clues.

Sorry this happened to you, Vaya, regardless of your alignment. I certainly think action should be taken about this outside the sphere of the game.

Vote: Vaya

[SensFan]

@CyberBob: My arguments from yesterday on SensFan were pretty weak, and I'm not really citing them as support for my vote. I'm more relying on my discussion today, how I think people showing up in my "medium" list make more natural targets, and then having other reasons for not voting other people in that list. SensFan is someone I don't feel particularly pro-town about who happens to show up in that middle list.

Cam

So you think Peabody is crafty enough to make Vaya not obvscum after his claim, and yet are assuming his buddy(ies) are in the people he didn't defend or attack much?
As for me personally, the only thing I can say about myself re: Peabody is that I do feel I was a fairly major proponent in his lynch, and that would have been a wholy unnecessary bus.

[SensFan]

As far as Vaya goes, that piece of WIFOM

is

going to have to be sorted out one way or another. I'm inclined to simply not buy into Peabody's cute little play and ignore it as being immaterial, but Vaya is almost certainly going to make it to the endgame (assuming we get that far, of course) if we don't lynch him and depending on who's left alive at whatever point I would be willing to support that option. Not today, though; today there are bigger and better fish to fry.

Vote:Col. Cathart

I disagree.
Vaya's lynch will basically be one of policy. I don't want to policy lynch someone in LyLo.

[SensFan]

I don't have the game link at hand but my girlfriend had a scumpartner who wasn't a crafty player yet self lynched day two saying something like my scumpartner is great, I wish him all the best. Since my girlfriend is a she, the town considered her confirmed town and she rode it to victory. It doesn't take a particularly sophisticated player to thrownup a wifom game.

I don't understand this type of thing, to be honest.

To everyone against lynching Vaya today: Do you think it is a good idea that we don't lynch Vaya at some point? I mean, as much as it really sucks for all involved, there's no way in Hell we can let her win as Scum at this point.
And if we're going to policy lynch her at some point, it needs to be asap.

[SensFan]

I disagree.
Vaya's lynch will basically be one of policy. I don't want to policy lynch someone in LyLo.

I'm not seeing any mention of LyLo in my post? All I said was "not today".

Later lynches are better for Town than earlier lynches. Why would we use a later lynch when we agree it will have to happen at some point?

Hoopla, the reason I think Vaya is the play is that, in theory, CoCo might do something that causes us to no longer want him lynched. Maybe he'll start playing fantastically, for instance. On the other hand, even if Jeep replaced Vaya right now, we would still need to lynch him at some point.

[SensFan]

there's no way in Hell we can let her win as Scum at this point.

There's only winning and losing. I don't see how there's any difference (other than making for a good story afterwards) between letting Vaya win as scum and having someone else win as scum.

And while I the "we're going to lynch him eventually anyway" argument has some meric, the policy lynch argument is silly --

this would be the craziest policy lynch of all time.

The policy being advocated is letting a dying scum pick the lynch for the next day. Why on earth would we want to give scum that power?

Cam

Its just too obvious. Especially with people saying they think this might be a 2-scum set-up, I just think that a single lynch (especially with the fact we're 1/1 on scum lynches thus far, and can afford to use one up) is worth getting rid of all of this WIFOM.

The way I see it:
*If he was telling the truth, its a massive bonus if we lynch him. Possibly a game win.
*If he was lying, its a very small loss.

Isn't it worth those odds?

[SensFan]

The more happy I become with my pro-Vaya stance, the more happy I become with my Sens vote. If it was just him and Peabody, he needs all the extra days he can get. What better way to accomplish this than to have us waste a full day on a Vaya lynch?

That seems like an odd change of direction, cam. Weren't you the one saying a page ago that you thought my arguments were slightly convincing? Surely, then, you see that - regardless of how right I may or may not be - I have no ulterior motives behind this push for a Vaya lynch.
As for CoCo's claims I'm scummy for this, well, lets just say I'll bother responding if I see any sign(s) that anyone else thinks anything he rights is worth mention.

[SensFan]

I probably should have brought this up earlier, since it probably goes a long way to explaining how I do, but read Rage in iso here.

New player to the site.
Plays fairly well, though is still wagoned to a claim D1.
Claims a cool Power.
People (including me, similar to when I push for a Peabody lynch, ironically) find massive holes in his claim.
He is lynched.
He explodes and calls out a buddy for having bussed him.
We lynched that person D2 for the sake of clearing the air, and he flipped a buddy of Rage.

Simply put, I have no significant read on Vaya whatsoever, and I'm not arguing he is scummy. I, personally, think it is absolutely unfathomable that we would even think of letting him go unlynched in an endgame scenario, since the odds are just far too high that Peabody outed a partner. Given that, the best play is to lynch him today.
If we're right, this game is (good as, since a third Scum, if any, was off the Peabody wagon) won. If we're wrong, then we've eliminated something that will doubtlessly hang over the game until Vaya dies, affecting our read of him, and are still well ahead of the curve, having gone 1-1 in our lynches.

As unfortunate as it is that we have to let Peabody get away with a mislynch if this was a bluff, there's a reason most Mods ban that shit in its entirety, and we just have to deal with it.

Again, sorry Vaya, but my vote's not moving today.

[SensFan]

I recognise that Vaya will have to be lynched at one point, but I like the Cathart wagon for today's lynch a lot more than I do Vaya.

That's stupid. If you know you will lynch Vaya at some point, why delay the inevitable? All it does is lynch someone you don't know you will need to, over someone you do.

[SensFan]

I'm puzzled as to why sens didn't talk about his meta example a LOT sooner. Seems kinda relevent to discussion...

I knew there was a reason I felt this strongly about the lynch, but it was only yesterday that I remembered where I had seen the situation before.

[SensFan]

I'm really finding myself agreeing with a lot of what mathcam's saying today.

Vote: Sensfan

Its not that the logic behind my lynch is entirely bad, but I could very well see Sens-scum pushing for this lynch to buy scum an extra day. I was also thinking that it was odd how Sens seemed unfazed by any arguments about me being town or against Peabody's statement being a frustrated outburst.

I also agree with mathcam about CoCo. I believe that he's town and I'm against his lynch.

It irks me that SensFan is zeroing in on a policy lynch without considering any other options at all - I was kind of hoping for more from him. But in a sense, I can understand his point of view.

I've explained why I'm 'zoning in' on it. I, 100%, will be doing my damnest to get Vaya lynched at some point in this game, since I can't imagine why we would ever let her coast to a Scum win on WIFOM's coattails. Therefore, I want her lynch today, since there is no point in delaying it.
Besides, if Vaya flips Scum and the game doesn't end, I think we still have a near-forced win. The same is not true for anyone else.

[SensFan]

If we've both agreed to lynch Vaya at some point in this game, why are we not doing it today? There is nothing Vaya could do to change our mind on lynching him, given its based on something he didn't do. There are very many things anyone else could do that would result in not lynching them.

[SensFan]

Please don't tell me we're now going to let Vaya get away with deflecting an entire plan with a scummy softclaim.

[SensFan]

Sensfan, could you explain something to me? Why did you earlier, when Peabody first accused me of being his scumbuddy, say that we should ignore the WIFOM he left? It seems like the opposite of you position today.

There's no point in trying to pass this plan yesterday. Especially since the Scum may have killed you if they thought we weren't biting.

Please don't tell me we're now going to let Vaya get away with deflecting an entire plan with a scummy softclaim.

Do you want a claim out of me? Why? I really don't see what difference it would make to you.

Damn straight I want a claim. I'd want one now even if Peabody had never said anything about you.
People that make softclaims need to fullclaim.

[SensFan]

Please don't tell me we're now going to let Vaya get away with deflecting an entire plan with a scummy softclaim.

Do you want a claim out of me? Why? I really don't see what difference it would make to you.

Damn straight I want a claim. I'd want one now even if Peabody had never said anything about you.
People that make softclaims need to fullclaim.

I think you're overreacting to my softclaim. All I've claimed is that I'm a role that cannot prove that I'm town, which could be just about any role.

Stop stalling.
You made a scummy scum softclaim. Softclaims shouldn't ever happen, but when they do, they need to be followed by a fullclaim.
Especially given most Power can prove it's Town.

[SensFan]

I want a claim too. People are way too edgy about claims.

It seems pointless to ask him to claim. He's already claimed his role can't confirm him, what are you going to do with the claim? Decide if you want to lynch him after he claims?

He softclaimed. Now he fullclaims. And looks really scummy for the softclaim, especially given the hasty way in which he made it.

That's how these things work.

[SensFan]

I think Vaya should claim, we lynch Sens (or anybody, for that matter), and if there's a cop out there, they can check Vaya.

Well, I think it's pretty possible, that the cop did check Vaya already on N1, considering Peabody's WIFOM. Actually, the fact that no one except from Sens is really supporting the idea in 100%, so that means, that either Sens is a cop, and the only one who know the truth, or someone else is, and knows that Vaya is not guilty hence his/her hesitation to lynch him.

I see you two have many things in common. Are you both using the same brand of rods and lure?

[SensFan]

I have no problem with you asking Vaya to claim. That doesn't need a rod.

[SensFan]

I suggest you look for a new rod/line/lure for your next game as Scum, CoCo.

[SensFan]

I'm on board for a lynch of one of them tomorrow. Vaya needs to go today.
I might have been convinced otherwise if it hadn't been for the ridiculously scummy softclaim.

[SensFan]

Cyberbob, stop being dumb. By your logic, any Scum that claims something half-decent won't be lynched.
Col.C, stop being Scum. If you seriously didn't think RBs blocked kills, I don't think you would have blocked the person most likely to submit a kill.

Unvote, Vote: Col.Cathart

Thoughts of Vaya haven't changed.

[SensFan]

Cyberbob, grow a backbone. Are you seriously advocating that you are ok with absolutely never lynching Scum D1?

[SensFan]

Cyberbob, grow a backbone. Are you seriously advocating that you are ok with absolutely never lynching Scum D1?

I'm sorry, what? Are you sure this is what you meant to write?

Yes. If you were in charge of the Town, you would never lynch Scum D1.

[SensFan]

Cyberbob, grow a backbone. Are you seriously advocating that you are ok with absolutely never lynching Scum D1?

I'm sorry, what? Are you sure this is what you meant to write?

Yes. If you were in charge of the Town, you would never lynch Scum D1.

Oh, OK. Welp, guess it must be true then!

How can you possibly deny it?
Or do you think Scum will just come out and claim either Townie or Flying Pumpkin With A Name I Don't Feel Like Looking Up?

[SensFan]

le chat needs to grow a pair.

[SensFan]

I don't know the context, but from what I gather, charter is 100% right. If someone self-votes, you vote them and don't unvote until they swing.

[SensFan]

If you are voting yourself, anyone that doesn't immediately vote you is massively scummy. Clearly, assuming you're Town, its in the Town's best interests to lynch you (or you wouldn't be trying to get yourself lynched). If you're not Town, its in the Town's best interests to lynch you.

It could be LyLo, with 3 confirmed-sane Cops claiming an Innocent on you, and I'd vote you in a heartbeat if you self-voted.

[SensFan]

I wanted to kill le Chat.

We so should of.

I'm surprised how right I was at guessing the powerroles:

As for my roleblock, I'm going to use it on Sens. I'm 60% sure he's a powerrole. When we were discussing the possibility of a 2:10 set-up, he seemed adament this game couldn't be balanced with 10 town. This implies he has some sort of powerful role that would not work with a 2:10 set-up. I'm thinking vig or cop. See post 526 by Sens for reference.

I'm not getting powerrole vibes from mathcam, to be honest.

Charter or le Chat would be my next picks for powerroles - probably favouring le Chat. I don't know if it's a playstyle thing, but he tends to lay low, not offend anyone, and stay out of the limelight. Plus he looks quite town.

I think we should kill and roleblock Sens and le Chat - I don't know which for which though. I like the idea of killing Sens for the Vaya WIFOM aspect.

Sens, was your discussion about the set-up and possibility of a 2:10 (here) influenced by your role at all, or was I imagining things?

Ummm...in a sense, you were wrong. At least, you totally mis-guessed that it was a good idea to kill me, or roleblock me.

And no, it wasn't. 2:10 is balanced in theory with no power at all, and I doubted that (even with my basically-vanilla role) KK would have made a mountaneous game.