Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

vote headsigh

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[charter]

Yeah, we need to restart then.

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[charter]

I don't care, it was just a freak occurrence. Just for fun, I think Talitha was scum.

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[charter]

le Chat? I take it Peabody was, but he didn't post.

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[charter]

vote Hoopla

Bandwagon!

[charter]

Early reports say both Hoopla and Vaya are town. Coco looks pretty suspect with his Vaya inquisition but ignoring the bandwagon votes of others. Looks like he's trying to build up a lynch on Vaya rather than question bandwagon votes.

unvote, vote CoCo

[charter]

What I AM suggesting is the opening wagon was not random.

Where do you say/hint at anything like this? All you've done so far is jump on Vaya for jumping on a wagon.

[charter]

What I AM suggesting is the opening wagon was not random.

Where do you say/hint at anything like this? All you've done so far is jump on Vaya for jumping on a wagon.

Because he had the third vote, thus creating a wagon. Did anyone vote after Vaya?

Uhhhh, yeah.

[charter]

CoCo, what makes Vaya's vote so scummy but not Sens' and mine?

[charter]

Charter, why are you getting a town reading on Hoopla and Vaya? Can you please point out specific posts that make you come to this conclusion?

Hoopla's reaction to the wagon on her wasn't scummy, so I'm leaning town on her. Pretty much every post of Vaya's I've agreed with, so town there as well.

Vaya, I wouldn't continue to waste your breath defending yourself against CoCo (aka it's way too early in the game for quote wars). I can't imagine anyone is actually buying what he's selling, I'm certainly not.

[charter]

It's just a phrase. Obviously I don't have any facts on anyone, it's like three pages in to the game.

My reason isn't shabby. You claimed to be questioning bandwagoners, but you weren't questioning everyone who was doing it, just Vaya. This makes me think that you don't care one way or the other about bandwagoners, you just wanted to build up a case on Vaya. You were selectively applying the logic.

Now you're OMGUSing as well.

Peabody wagon is good.

[charter]

Those were just my thoughts. Saying "early reports say blah and blah" is just another way of saying "well, I think blah".

[charter]

I think for now, that Peabody's vote was a simple mistake, not a real scum-tell. His jumpiness to vote others IS quite suspicious though.

Why are you defending Peabody? If Peabody comes up scum, you're the first to go.

unvote, vote Peabody

coco/vaya/mathcam/charter argument is a giant mass of red herring, overreaction and nulltell

Um, no. Go back and read my post (62).

[charter]

I would like le Chat to give an opinion on something, anything. Best would be who you are most suspicious of and why. Another question you could answer is why haven't you voted yet this game?

[charter]

In other news I'm also interested in mathcam.. I think he could easily be scum.

Can you elaborate? I haven't really been getting any sort of a read off of him.

I had the same feeling as Talitha. You answered the question yourself. He's just parroting, buddying, and blending in. I particularly don't like his unvote, but then leaving it at that. He doesn't start any other lines of questioning or look at someone else.

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

[charter]

Charter, then why weren't you asking questions as I was?

Here's something; does one not think I might have been watching for reactions while attacking Vaya?

I've been asking lots of questions, how do you think I'm not?
Being ridiculous and scummy isn't an excuse to watch for reactions.

Also, Charter... you voted for me based upon my attacks at Vaya.

Hmmm...

See, this is another one of those misconstrues. I SPECIFICALLY stated when I voted you that it was because you were only questioning Vaya, not everyone who was bandwagoning.

[charter]

Lol, you missed my following post, didn't you, Cyberbob?

Cyberbob was right. This doesn't even make sense. Very few of your posts do.

[charter]

Ok, I'm just going to stop arguing with CoCo before I pull my hair out. If I see something he does that I think is scummy, I'll post it, else I'm just going to try and avoid migraines.

[charter]

Col.Cathart, who are your top two suspects and why do you suspect them?

I'm really thinking Col and Peabody are scumbuddies.

[charter]

I'm really thinking Col and Peabody are scumbuddies.

I will explain this after Col answers my question as well.

[charter]

-- what do you think of CoCo's response to my questioning? And I don't think you can tell whether or not I've been looking at someone else -- I prefer to have something to say before saying it.

CoCo's responses to your questions were poor. I'm saying I don't see you looking for scum in many people, sure you could be doing it, but it's not happening in this thread.

Hey, anyone read iso-Mathcam yet? You should...

Scummy post. Implying that Mathcam is scummy, but isn't telling us what he finds suspect about Mathcam's posts, he just leaves it up to us to come up with that for him.

As for why I suspect Col Cathart and Peabody.
Col Cathart spends his first three posts waiting for others to do stuff instead of doing it himself. Not strong pro town posts. He unvotes his RVS vote but I see no intention of looking for another place to put his vote.

I think for now, that Peabody's vote was a simple mistake, not a real scum-tell. His jumpiness to vote others IS quite suspicious though.

This is really scummy. He is explaining away Peabody's vote and trying to say it isn't a scum tell.

Post 6 is more waiting around.

So I'm pretty much suspicious of him because he isn't really looking in to people, just making comments from the sidelines. His list of suspects is pretty convenient as well. Even more is him saying Peabody's answers don't make sense, but does he question Peabody on this discrepancy? No..

Lastly: Do you still really think I'm a scumbuddy with Peabody, because I didn't jump to his throat, when everyone else did? As someone else stated before, that's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention, that it was a perfect ground for bussing, so that kind of action for scum makes no sense to me...

I'm not really sure how to explain this well, but this is a poor way of defending yourself, and this is more of giving me the impression that Peabody is town and Col Cathart is not.

Peabody, his initial vote was fishy, as has been pointed out.
His vote on to me was pretty weak, and it's still there. He's not questioning me on anything about it either.

Upon writing all this, I find Col Cathart much scummier, so

unvote, vote Col Cathart

[charter]

I will easily acknowledge that I am more hesitant to vote than most people. I’ll also acknowledge that its easier for me to give opinions on what I don’t find scummy than what I find scummy… I guess that’s your point when you ask whom I’m most suspicious of and why I haven’t voted. It does make me feel bad when Cyberbob tags onto you saying that I haven’t said anything of value.

So does this mean that you only vote like once a day or what? Only when you're reasonable sure you're voting for scum? Just looking for some reason why you tend to be hesitant.

Also, I'm still waiting for Charter's reasoning behind naming me a scumbuddy of Peabody...

Post 237. It's all there.

Huge FOS to mathcam for 270 which says "I don't see the CoCo wagon going anywhere, so I need a little time to wait for the most promising alternative bandwagon to surface".

[charter]

Charter:

First thing - bandwagon. Yeah, I'm stubborn about it, but my guts are telling me, something is very wrong about this bandwagon. Don't worry though, this isn't affecting my decisions in any way... for now.

So you're going to claim that bandwagoning is scummy some time in the future then? How can it not affect your decision now, but then you'll let it affect it in the future? What?

Actually every case he's making is 'this is scummy' 'this looks like a town' etc. No explanation. No elaboration. No nothing. One liners. One liners everywhere. In my opinion, this makes you the biggest active lurker on this thread.

Umm, no. I've had to poke and prod multiple people for who they are suspicious of because

they

are actively lurking. Guess what? You were one of those people. If you don't agree with what I call scummy and I didn't explain it, then you can ask me and I'll clarify. (I have explained what is scummy about a lot of things, so this is a pretty poor misrep as well)

I'm even ignoring the fact, that I wasn't defending him, as I already stated in post 267. You are telling, that I'm scummy because (OMIGOD!) I'm not finding his random vote scummy. How can this be?

Well, I think you asserted that his vote wasn't scummy hard enough to be defending him. Plus there was the contrast in the next sentence where you say he is suspicious.

So basically you find me scummy because...? You didn't say, probably because you just tried to throw something together against the person with the most votes other than you.

Still waiting on a response to post 237.

Unvote, vote: SensFan

Please either post something, or replace out. Sorry, but 11 day V/LA's without anything is too long.

Yes.

Request replacement on Sensfan.

I have no clue why he joined this game.

Good news! I just went back and checked, and it says or implies nothing of the sort. Phew.

Yeah it does, I translated it. You really haven't done anything but vote for CoCo, and it's pretty pointless to vote for him. Who are you going to vote for instead of CoCo after your "soul searching" (which I see as an excuse to wait around a bit before deciding).

[charter]

Then give me ONE example, where you are explaining your vote on Peabody before post 237, when you are actually unvoting him. Not to mention, you did nothing except from poking, and short argument with CoCo (ok, you were first to mention that CoCo ignored you and SensFan in his accusation. Something else?).

I didn't explain my Peabody vote. What is scummy with not explaining it? No one ever asked for an explaination either.

In my opinion, this makes you the biggest active lurker on this thread.

This is totally not true. I've already said how I had to prod other active lurkers, notably yourself, because you weren't contributing. You can say this is your opinion, but you're very clearly wrong.

Also CoCo's point that Peabody's wagon is ridiculous, and his posts in discussion with Cyberbob in Peabody's case. They are basically seing the same thing as me, and yet, I'm scummy, not them (well, at least not for it). This is also the place when I'm going back to your vote at CoCo - You voted him because he accused Vaya for bandwagoning, and ignoring your and SensFan's contribution in it.

You just did the same thing here, so that makes you a hypocrite as well.

That's enough for me.

No. STOP twisting what I said. THE REASON I voted for CoCo was because I thought he was trying to build a lynch on Vaya under the pretense of questioning bandwagoning. These situations are nothing alike.

Still waiting on a response to post 237.

I did respond to points that were needed to respond. Basically the answer to anything else except from Peabody Case (which is also answered in my last few posts) is 'Yes, I didn't contribute enough, I'm going to change it. Sorry.'

So you're calling me an active lurker, when you're even admitting you're not contributing?

Everyone else, what do you think of this?

I think this is scummy because you're trying to say I'm scummy for not contributing (which isn't true, but that's a large part of your argument) while admitting you aren't contributing. This is ridiculous. The other part of your argument is wrong too, because you clearly didn't understand why I voted CoCo.

[charter]

Not asking replacement at all, since as I said to everyone a few days ago, I'm back now.

Or are charter and Hoopla just trying to get me out of the game for some other reason?

You also said you'd post that night, but didn't. I'm also pretty sure I saw you post somewhere else on MS a lot then as well. You were gone almost two weeks, which is ridiculous and you should have not been put in this game.

[charter]

CoCo is, once again, going out of his way to really unhelpful.

Col.Cathart, you are quickly joining CoCo's ranks. I've shown how your accusations are wrong, and if that's the most you are coming up with in terms of who is scum, then the only explanation I can think of for it is you're just trying to lynch me because I suspect you, not because you think I'm scummy. You never responded to my initial case on you, you didn't refute my points in that last post, and you're STILL going on about me and have STILL not given any reason why I'm scum, just that I post infrequently (which isn't actively lurking, another of your wrong accusations).

This is pure gold. How do you expect anyone to take your vote serious if you're not going to back it up with ANY reasoning? In my opinion, this is huge town mistake (yes, mine too, see below)

WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS? My vote was just a pressure vote, I don't care if people take my vote that early seriously or not. HOW DOES THIS MAKE ME SCUM?

The main fuel for your vote was the fact, that CoCo ignored SensFan and yourself in his 'bandwagon war'. Without it, your argument would never be created. And yet you just did the same thing as CoCo. In short, you did the same thing, as someone who you voted for, BECAUSE he did that.

No. Wrong. Don't tell me what I said, I said it and I know what I said. I voted CoCo because it looked like he was trying to build a lynch under the pretense of questioning bandwagon votes. I didn't do the same thing as CoCo, because I'm not applying logic inconsistently to build a lynch.

So the thief cannot say to other thief, that he's a thief? I admit, I WASN'T contributing, because I wasn't paying attention to the game. My mistake. Now in order to repair my mistake, I'm trying to contribute more, and scumhunt as good as I can. So now you can say, I'm someone who was accused of thievery, who's now the cop catching thieves. The cop, who probably won't be respected for a loong time, because of past deeds, but he still is doing his job.

A) This makes no sense
B) Why does this make me scum?

Col Cathart, none of what you've posted or said indicates that I'm scum in the slightest. You're even admitting that, so why are you voting me if you aren't trying to show that I'm scum?

Also, I'm done arguing with you because you ARE wrong but you just keep twisting what I say. I've set you straight, and I'm sure everyone else will see that.

[charter]

You really haven't done anything but vote for CoCo, and it's pretty pointless to vote for him. Who are you going to vote for instead of CoCo after your "soul searching" (which I see as an excuse to wait around a bit before deciding).

First, I haven't voted for anyone but CoCo, but that doesn't mean I haven't done anything btu vote for CoCo. Second, I dispute that it's pointless to vote for someone who isn't one of the current forerunners, espeically early on the first day before two major candidates get identified. Third, putting "soul searching" in quotes with an attempt to stigmatize the phrase is as ridiculous as CoCo's "early reports" fiasco. Finally, you can see it however you want, but that doesn't make it a valid interpretation -- I can see SensFan's absence for 11 days as his attempt to embody his mafia character and going and killing people in real life for 11 days on a massive crime spree, but that doesn't make it anywhere near a reasonable interpretation of events. Even without this hyperbole, this was a cheap shot. If I had just unvoted and not mentioned the fact that I was actually grappling with the decision, you wouldn't have even brought it up.

Most importantly

: I find it interesting that you think I'd vote for someone other than CoCo, and not CoCo himself -- why do you assume my soul-searching will necessarily come up pro-CoCo? Know something we don't?

Cam

I would like you to reiterate what else you've done besides interacting with CoCo and what opinions you've formed on players besides him. I say your CoCo vote is pointless because no one else has expressed interest in voting him, you aren't trying to convince anyone else to vote him, and you aren't really questioning him much anymore either. I don't see the point of your vote on him other that to mark your suspicion on him. I guess that's a point, but it's a poor one.

Yes, I'm not trying to use the soul searching phrase as an argument, I know that you meant you need time to think about it, but that's what I find scummy. It seems like you're waiting for the town to go in a definite direction and THEN decide on CoCo. I say this because you have expressed mild, at best, suspicion of anyone else.

Why do I assume you're going to unvote CoCo? Same reasons as before, the vote is pointless, it has nowhere to go and you're not trying to make it go anywhere.

Btw, charter: With chat's unvote, is your vote on cathart now "pointless"?

I stand that it isn't. I'm trying to get others to see Col.Cathart's scumminess. I addressed a question to everyone, but they must have missed it.

Everyone, what do you think of Col.Cathart's using 'charter is active lurking' as a reason to vote me while admitting he is doing it himself?

The fact that I'm not active lurking is besides the point, but I touched on this in 290 saying I find him scummy for it.

[charter]

Everyone, what do you think of Col.Cathart's using 'charter is active lurking' as a reason to vote me while admitting he is doing it himself?

The fact that I'm not active lurking is besides the point, but I touched on this in 290 saying I find him scummy for it.

I don't think either of you are actively lurking at the moment, so not a whole lot I guess?

It's not the accusation that I'm active lurking, it's the fact that he is voting me for something he admits to doing. Pot. Kettle. Very black.

[charter]

I know that you meant you need time to think about it, but that's what I find scummy.

I don't see how. Not all of us rely solely on our gut for our votes. Brains take time to work things out.

This is getting ridiculous. I explained how it was scummy in the next sentence.

Why do I assume you're going to unvote CoCo? Same reasons as before, the vote is pointless, it has nowhere to go and you're not trying to make it go anywhere.

Those aren't reasons --

you

think the vote is pointless, I do not. Given that I don't know who I'd vote for afterwards, how is an unvote any less pointless than the CoCo vote?

Well then, why aren't you trying to convince others to vote Coco? You must have other suspects at this point in the game, why not vote one of them? Being the only person to be voting someone, and not trying to get others to vote them, IS pointless.

2) Hoopla's "Policy lynches on anti-town play." I completely agree, so I don't see how you can ignore CoCo. I even mildly understand your feeling that CoCo's aggressiveness is helpful to the town, but I just don't think it's enough to compensate. Look, I don't know CoCo is scum (I'm still suspicious that Charter might know he's

not

,

FOS: Charter

), but I do know that if he is, we're never going to catch him unless we make him answer questions. The best way to do this is through voting pressure, and while my vote alone won't do it, it's a start.

First off, I do not think Coco is in any way, whatsoever, helpful, just need to clear that up. Second, if you agree with a policy lynch on Coco, that's fine, but that's clearly not what you think. You've said you think he's scummy, not that he's so anti town as to be policy lynched.

SerialClergyman, can you explain why you have the reads you do? I don't agree with almost all of them and you didn't explain any, so I have no idea what you're thinking right now.

I am thinking a scumtrio of Cathart, Peabody, mathcam.

[charter]

Serial comes in and it does not impress.

I'll try and not do a wall like he did.

With regards to mathcam, every reason you list, I see as scummy. How you explained this making him town makes zero sense.

Cyberbob is the person in the thread who is making the most amount of sense. I agree with your first point, the rest, not at all. Some of them are flat out wrong as well.

Your Vaya/le Chat reads pretty much say nothing and are largely based off single posts.

I am struggling to see how SCscum would make that post, it really makes zero sense if he actually were scum.

Something else I am extremely curious about, Peabody, why is your vote still on me? From what I gather, you voted me because I felt Vaya and Hoopla were town and didn't give any reasons for that. I will

unvote, vote Peabody

while he cooks up something good in response. It pains me that Col Cathart is escaping scrutiny, but his scumbuddy is just as good.

[charter]

Sens, who do you currently think is most likely to be scum? Why?

[charter]

Sens, who do you currently think is most likely to be scum? Why?

[charter]

Ummm, I looked at all his posts on this page, and I didn't see it. He's clearly joking about le Chat. I'm wondering because I think the votes he's done since he came back are policy votes, which isn't necessarily who he finds scummy.

[charter]

Oh wow, I totally missed that.

[charter]

Sens, you should totally vote Peabody, he's ColCathart's scumbuddy.

[charter]

SC, what do you think about Peabody and Col.Cathart?

[charter]

Okay. Regarding Mathcam.

Unvote

. I probably should have made an

FOS: Mathcam

instead of going to a vote. I definitely think Charter is still the scummier of the two.

Vote Charter

.

Why are you making this a dichotomy? Why are you even voting me?

[charter]

I'm voting for you because I think you're scum.

No way!...

Why

do you think I'm scum?

[charter]

Charter, all anyone has to do is take a look at your vote history. You've switched votes around more than anyone.

Heh, just as I thought, terrible reasons.

1. You jumped on the Hoopla bandwagon.

And? Why is that scummy? I'll preempt the inevitable 'trying to get a quicklynch' BS argument by pointing out I unvoted Hoopla less than two hours after I voted. Bandwagons are protown.

2. You voted me because I failed to question you or Sensfan.

Correct, and you're still scummy for that. My vote was totally justified.

3. You vote Peabody over his late RVS vote.

Please point out where I gave this reason when I voted Peabody, because you're inventing it.

4. You vote Cathart during a strong wagon.

What does this even mean? If it means that I vote Cathart because others are and I'm just jumping on the wagon, then this is once again, completely false. When I voted him, I was the only one voting for him.

It appears they are all opportunistic votes to lynch someone, anyone. Your hands are pratically wrapped around straws at this point and I have no problems rejoining the wagon on you.

What you really meant to say when you listed reasons was "charter, your votes have been very pro town". Your claim that I've been opportunistically voting is BS as well.

To the rest of the town.

I'm sure everyone agrees that Coco is being incredibly dense and unhelpful. Normally we would policy lynch someone like this, but seeing as that's a poor idea in this game (many actively scummy people more deserving of a lynch), I propose that we just ignore everything he says until he shapes up. Cold Shoulder. 100%.

[charter]

Okay. Regarding Mathcam.

Unvote

. I probably should have made an

FOS: Mathcam

instead of going to a vote. I definitely think Charter is still the scummier of the two.

Vote Charter

.

Why are you making this a dichotomy?

[charter]

I'm not a fan of the charter wagon right now, in no small part because I think there's at the very least one Scum in {SC, Col.C, CoCo}.

You too!?!?!?

I've been wondering why I was the vote leader for this entire game.

[charter]

I am pretty sure Peabody is scum and two of the people not voting him and ignoring him are his buddies. This list to include

mathcam
Col.Cathart
Talitha
SerialClergyman
le Chat
SensFan

I really have absolutely no clue how all of these people seem to have nothing to say AT ALL about Peabody, and he is sitting at L-1. You all need to state whether you think Peabody is scum or not, and why.

[charter]

Talitha shouldn't be included, my bad.

[charter]

I am pretty sure Peabody is scum and two of the people not voting him and ignoring him are his buddies. This list to include

mathcam
Col.Cathart
Talitha
SerialClergyman
le Chat
SensFan

I really have absolutely no clue how all of these people seem to have nothing to say AT ALL about Peabody, and he is sitting at L-1. You all need to state whether you think Peabody is scum or not, and why.

After thinking about this this morning, I am going to pull a 180.

unvote

Upon further reflection, while many people are ignoring Peabody, there really isn't anyone trying to stop his lynch, which I would expect to happen if he was scum. Seems unlikely his buddies would leave him to the vultures without hardly a word or a last minute bus attempt. Also, Col.Cathart asking him to claim after saying he doesn't find Peabody scummy made my scumdar go berserk with this poor attempt at rolefishing.

Also, my main Peabodyscum theory stems almost entirely from Col.Cathartscum, so it would be dumb on my part to lynch Peabody first, especially since he's looked way more pro town recently.

Will continue this post when I get back from dinner and proceed in voting mathcam.

[charter]

I would say that I'm pretty sure there's 3 Scum or more, that's not a stretch at all.

Yeah, I always assume three scum to start with in a mini. Once I see evidence of something else, I reevaluate. It's dumb to speculate day one, so I just make assumptions.

Also, I started that last post like six hours ago... So I need to finish it when I get back.

[charter]

Continuing my post from last night...

Though I can't say that I'm liking everything charter's saying, in hindsight, my vote on him feels a little OMGUS. Also, somehow CoCo has managed to appear very reasonable the past couple of pages -- I'm not sure what to make of this. One thing's for certain -- that CoCo and CyberBob now both agree on Peabody means I need to stop dismissing that particular bandwagon so lightly.

Unvote: charter

.

The last couple of pages have been interesting. Aside from possibly rethinking Peabody, I'm actually feeling relatively happy with the active participants. Tally is probably moving towards the lynchable side of my list.

Cam

Well, you're still scummy for waiting to pick someone else you find scummy besides Coco and then hedging your bets on a charterwagon. Looks like that didn't go so well.
Coco is acting more anti-town than ever these past few pages, so this is a bad job of dropping your Coco suspicion.
Other points that still hold water: you never tried very hard to convince people to vote Coco or myself, you just let your vote sit on us.

Another reason I find you scummy, you only suspect the main people that are coming under fire and when they're under fire. This happened early with Coco, charter, and now Peabody.

unvote, vote Mathcam

Also, Col.Cathart asking him to claim after saying he doesn't find Peabody scummy made my scumdar go berserk with this poor attempt at rolefishing.

*facepalm*

So far in any single game I played on mafia scum, when someone is going at L-1 there's a natural question about claim. And it sometimes cames from someone who's not voting for that person. It's a popular practice around the board, as far as I can see, so if it's different, then I'm sorry, I'm still kinda new to this mafiascum style of game. I don't see it as anything scummy at all.

Hmmm. I suppose this is just a newbie mistake then. A shame that all of your other games went like that. See what happened to the Peabody wagon here? L-1 and it disintegrated, no need for an unnecessary claim. Null I guess.

After thinking about this this morning, I am going to pull a 180.

unvote

Upon further reflection, while many people are ignoring Peabody, there really isn't anyone trying to stop his lynch, which I would expect to happen if he was scum. Seems unlikely his buddies would leave him to the vultures without hardly a word or a last minute bus attempt. Also, Col.Cathart asking him to claim after saying he doesn't find Peabody scummy made my scumdar go berserk with this poor attempt at rolefishing.

What kind of reaction would you expect if Peabody is scum? With him looking like a likely lynch, I wouldn't expect scum to try too hard to stop his lynch, it would just make them look scummy as well.

I would have expected people to be trying to push for another lynch than Peabody, someone to start attacking those voting Peabody, any sort of a defense, but the biggest defense that happened was Talitha's unvote to vote someone she finds scummier, and that wasn't scummy. Also, Peabody wasn't in a hurry to claim, and recently I've been seeing scum eager to claim some power role they invented.

I actually like 504 by SC, the part about how Talitha hasn't been scumhunting much, mostly defending herself.

I agree that Cathart's role-claim fishing was not particularly scummy.

I agree that there's something slightly fallacious about the too townie argument, but I also think there's something sketchy about the fallacy itself. Given that a majority of the players in any given game will be townies, and that all players are trying to roughly play within a set of standardized norms, any reasonable type of play or playstyle will be more likely to be used by a townie than by scum. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be read from it. Anyway...

Let's just lynch Peabody.

Vote: Peabody.

We need a day 2.

Cam

Lets lynch you. Now I know I'm right in my suspicions of you. Lynching someone you 'think' is town just to get to day two? Yeah right.

I'm still following my ignore Coco idea. You guys should too.

[charter]

Talitha, what do you think of mathcam and a mathcam lynch?

[charter]

Cyberbob, what do you think of mathcam?

Consolidated case on mathcam for everyone

• First unvote (Post 165) of Coco, where that ended all his lines of questioning, and he didn't attempt to start any new ones. His reason for unvoting was he found Coco's answers to his questions about why Coco only questioned Vaya satisfactory (this was the only one Coco actually gave an answer to).
  
• His revote of Coco, a mere two posts later. He uses Coco original attack on Vaya as one of his reasons, BUT this contradicts why he unvoted. Not only that, but if you look at what he says (Post 215), he justifies it by saying that Coco's answers gave him "plausible deniability" and Coco's reasoning for solely questioning Vaya is "hardly airtight".
  
• Having to wait and think about if he wants to continue voting Coco when it's clear no one else is interested in pursuing Coco. I still maintain it was just to wait to see who else would emerge as an easy target.
  
• Despite what he says in 356, he really hasn't done any scumhunting.
  
• Puts me at L-2 in 362, no real reason given, though we find out later it was OMGUS.
  
• Does a complete 180 on Hoopla in 410, but no mention of why.
  
• Unvotes me after pretty much everyone not voting me says they don't like the charterwagon. Once again, drops all lines of questioning.
  
• Tries to lynch someone he thinks is town in 505.
  This is horribly scummy, how does anyone think this is a town move?

Some general things about his play that I find scummy, as well.

• Lack of trying to figure out anyone but Coco's alignment
  
• Always voting easy targets, normally ones that have lots of votes, but doesn't give much reason
  
• Voting someone he thinks is town

Not happy about the Peabody lynch that is threatening to materialize. I do not like it at all. Nope.

Talitha, what do you think of mathcam's trying to lynch someone he thinks is town?

When Peabody flips scum (my gut is now telling me that he will) I'm going to look very closely at those who pointed at my unvote as scummy (or "inappropriate").

If Peabody is town my unvote would've been extremely appropriate.
This is the first reason I've had to suspect Cyberbob.

unvote: Serial Clergyman
vote: Peabody

FOS this, because you're preemptively defending yourself if Peabody is town.

[charter]

Cyberbob: Why was the timing iffy? If he wasn't at L-1 (or 2 or whatever!) I wouldn't have needed to unvote to stall the lynch!!!!

charter: How am I pre-emptively defending myself if Peabody is town?!!

By saying your unvote was justified, but now you've gone back to voting him. You can't be voting him and patting yourself on the back for unvoting at the same time.

What do I think of mathcam trying to lynch someone he "thinks" is town? Exceedingly honest! He's keen to end the day which I am sympathetic to, and he has tried to get his prefered lynch (CoCo) lynched with no success. Saying he thinks Peabody is town is MISLEADING. It is more accurate to say that he thinks Peabody has more chance of being town than he does of being scum. Unless a scum has screwed up big time, anyone who says they're sure about someone being scum on Day 1 is either bluffing or lying, IMO.

So you don't find it scummy at all then?

[charter]

charter you've missed my point completely. It wasn't about defending myself... it was about those who were jumping up and down because I unvoted. To me it looks like they have more info on Peabody's alignment than I do.

Ah, yes I did miss your point.

And no I don't think settling on a less preferred option after 23 pages of day 1 is particularly scummy.

Where does less preferred end though? He hasn't said two words on Peabody all game.

He said he gave Peabody a 1/3 chance of being scum, which is like throwing a dart to do your voting. I guess I went a little overboard saying he thinks he's town, but he certainly doesn't think he's scum, and it seems to me like he's just trying to lynch Peabody and not because he thinks Peabody is scum.

[charter]

Col.Cathart is totally mathcam's partner. Let me dig up some gold to show this.

[charter]

Do you think I'm more than a 50% chance of being scum?

I don't know what percentage to assign my read, but I do think you're scum.

There was 50 posts between those two posts! That was a blatant misrepresentation of the truth, and thus scummy. How does the number of those 50 posts being mine have any relevance whatsoever? And changing your mind is not a contradiction. When I re-voted for the same reason as my original unvote, it's clear that I no longer considered CoCo's responses satisfactory.

I meant your two posts later. You can "change your mind" all you want, but it was scummy.

Despite what he says in 356, he really hasn't done any scumhunting.

Not sure what to tell you, no one else seems to have this opinion.

No one else will say more than two words about you, which puzzles me to the extreme.

The rest of his "defense" was pretty much just agreeing with me (sans the lynching someone he thinks is town, which I went overboard on, but it still reeks of scum) so I'm even more happy with my vote.

I'm putting the chances at CoCo surviving the night at 98%.

Obviously because you're scum and he's a massive detriment to town.

[charter]

Charter's case against mathcam is no good and scummy at best.

Explain what is no good and scummy about it.

[charter]

Anyone notice Col Cathart come in after a sizeable absense to 'third' someone else's point on page 24 without adding any content then disappear again?

That's because he is scum. I'd gladly lynch him today.

[charter]

So, the dilemma for me is, using the D1 lynch to remove someone hurtful to the town, or killing someone like Peabody who has an okay chance of being scum and holds a lot more information.

What would you say to a scum lynch of Cathart or mathcam?

[charter]

So, the dilemma for me is, using the D1 lynch to remove someone hurtful to the town, or killing someone like Peabody who has an okay chance of being scum and holds a lot more information.

What would you say to a scum lynch of Cathart or mathcam?

No to mathcam, he has a lot to offer town if he's town. And I haven't found him scummy.

I'd vote for Cathart if it's necessary to get a lynch, but he isn't in my top 2 or 3.

Do you think mathcam is town? Why or why not? Would you join me in a Cathart vote? What position is Cathart on your lynch spectrum?

Would you, Cyberbob, join me in a Cathart vote?

It's pointless for me to vote Cathart again if it's just going to be me, but if we get three votes on him, I think we can get some serious information from him. I'm still holding out for the mathcam wagon, but it's looking grim.

[charter]

Do you think mathcam is town? Why or why not? Would you join me in a Cathart vote? What position is Cathart on your lynch spectrum?

Would you, Cyberbob, join me in a Cathart vote?

It's pointless for me to vote Cathart again if it's just going to be me, but if we get three votes on him, I think we can get some serious information from him. I'm still holding out for the mathcam wagon, but it's looking grim.

Yes, because there are a lot more town players than scum, and I have yet to see much scummy/anti-town play from mathcam. He's been logical and active. At the moment, he isn't townier than random, but I don't see any compelling reasons to lynch him. I think a compelling reason to lynch him is the complete lack of trying to figure out others' alignment.

I can't really refute this, but I will ask you what scumhunting has he done? Who's alignment has he attempted to figure out?

As for Cathart, I believe some of the incriminating behaviour people have picked him up on have been honest mistakes. For example, asking Peabody to claim at L-1, when he didn't have the intention of hammering. I think that's a matter of a new player not understanding the reasons behind why certain policies happen, but doing it anyway, because he feels that's normal.

After reading his responses, I am inclined to agree that he was just schooled on very poor mafia theory. However, I find him scummy for other reasons besides this, I will highlight them tomorrow.

I understand you now find that particular piece of play null, but it gives an insight into the sort of player he is, which semi-explains the active lurking case behind him. He's still scummier than random, but this is based on a semantics argument with an unconfirmed alignment on D1. It isn't solid, which is why I'd still rather lynch someone who gives more information, or is less helpful to the town.

At the moment, Peabody and CoCo are ahead of him. He's probably equal for the next spot with the lurky Vaya.

I feel Cathart is way scummier than normal. I'll explain tomorrow.

What's wrong with the Peabody wagon?

I only voted Peabody because at the time I thought he was Cathart's buddy. Right now, I think the Peabody wagon is going to result in a mislynch. I think there is at least one scum on his wagon (and yes, I have an idea for the third scum other than Cathart and mathcam, but that's not for today).

[charter]

Fair enough.

I'm looking for more from Sens tomorrow after some flips, then. I'm having trouble reading him because I can't see much he's doing of anything, apart from a few caustic comments. If you say his strength is in his analysis after something a bit more concrete, I'll defer to that.

I'm seeing my view worsen on Cathart, but he's behind my preferred lynches.

Where did Vaya go?

Real quick, before I go to sleep, would you vote for Cathart?

[charter]

Fuck me. Back to my thoughts in like my sixth post. Pretty sure mathcam isn't scum now.

vote Col.Cathart

Still a scummy post
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13#1834613

[charter]

Because a large part of my theory was mathcam voting Peabody. However, Peabody did call my theory against mathcam scummy, but I'm more inclined to think Peabody was trying to shift blame on to me as opposed to off of mathcam.

[charter]

I am pretty sure Peabody is scum and two of the people not voting him and ignoring him are his buddies. This list to include

mathcam
Col.Cathart
Talitha
SerialClergyman
le Chat
SensFan

I really have absolutely no clue how all of these people seem to have nothing to say AT ALL about Peabody, and he is sitting at L-1. You all need to state whether you think Peabody is scum or not, and why.

Had I stopped thinking here instead of my mathcam tangent, I'd say mathcam, Talitha, and SensFan are no longer probable Peabody buddies. SerialClergyman moves in to the spot under Cathart, with le Chat filling in spot three. Vaya gets the honorable mention in my scumfecta due to chronic lurking and Peabody's last words.

[charter]

After reading through Peabody's posts looking for connections to Col.Cathart, I find these. One response to a question from Peabody very early in the game. One defense of Cathart in this post.

Charter, a majority of your posts are one liners, but I would not call this 'active lurking'.

Col.Cathart has ended up posting a lot more than he used to. Charter, I'm not sure that Col.Cathart has actually admitted to 'active lurking'. He admitted to not paying attention earlier in the game:

And I quote

Now, you're twisting my words. I admitted to not paying attention in early game.

Charter, it seems as if you are twisting people's words around. Also I see you conveying LOTS of emotion in your posts.

And one more defense of Cathart in this post.

About the charter/Col battle, I'm still not seeing a contradiction in Col.Cathart's play. He acknowledged that he hasn't been posting much because he hasn't been keeping up with the thread. Furthermore, Col.Cathart has been making great posts with a lot of content and a lot of questions which is more than you can say about charter (although I don't believe charter is actively lurking).

That was all I found in the ways of interacting with Col.Cathart. Twice defending him and once answering an innocuous question directed at him from Cathart. I think this is a pretty strong connection between them.

[charter]

Why do you think I'm scum?
Why do you think Cathart is town?

[charter]

Oh wow, I'm an idiot. Sorry mathcam. Which of the people in the middle are you most suspicious of based off Peabody's posts?

[charter]

I'd be down for a CoCo lynch just so we don't have to deal with him any more, otherwise, Cathart still looks the scummiest to me.

I don't really get why Hoopla is questioning why Cyberbob was voting a scumbag the entire day. It seems like a ridiculously bad idea from a Cyberbobscum perspective. That's really all I found noteworthy since I last posted. I'm inclined to think that Hoopla isn't scum though, since Peabody didn't really seem to care that Hoopla was at L-2 really early, it looked like he wanted to use that to build an attack on the voters rather than prevent her lynch.

I was just looking at the end of yesterday, and I think it should be noted that Cathart was sticking with Peabody and trying to lynch CoCo. Also, he REALLY went out of his way to avoid talking about Peabody at all in the ~4-5 pages before the lynch. Just seems scummy to me. The last time I see him mention Peabody is post 485, and it looks really scummy to me as well.

Person I suspect most after Cathart is probably SC.

[charter]

I don't really think CoCo is likely to be scum, I just think he's a big enough distraction that a lynch, and presumably nightkill, is an acceptable price to pay to be rid of him. The fact that he could be scum is just gravy.

I do think Cathart is scum, and want to lynch him because I'm pretty sure it will bring us one step closer to the end of the game.

As far as both of them being scum together, that is probably the least likely combination of scum imaginable.

[charter]

The TL;DR version of why Cathart is scum:

• Post 120, he defends Peabody.
  
• Post 656, I find all interactions with Cathart Peabody had, 2/3 of them are really scummy.
  
• End of day one, Cathart was sticking with Peabody voting CoCo, completely ignored Peabody. His last mention of Peabody was post 485, and it was VERY scummy.
  
• Really has no interest in explaining any of the points I've raised against him, is instead going back to his CoCo vote, when it's VERY unlikely CoCo is scum. If scum were going to bus yesterday, it would have been bussing CoCo since I can't imagine they would think he'd last long. CoCo was clearly the town alternative to the scum lynch yesterday.

TL;DR version of that:
Cathart is scum.

[charter]

As I said already many times before - No. There was no defense in there.

Yes, you've said this before, but I disagree and still think it's scummy.

Post 656, I find all interactions with Cathart Peabody had, 2/3 of them are really scummy.

Cannot really say here, except from that, I think that Peabody was trying to buddy with me.

You say buddying, I say defending. The only difference between the two is your alignment, so you saying you're town isn't convincing.

End of day one, Cathart was sticking with Peabody voting CoCo, completely ignored Peabody. His last mention of Peabody was post 485, and it was VERY scummy.

Because to the moment of Peabody's confession, my point about him was exactly the same. What was so scummy in NOT finding him as suspicious as someone else? Dunno. Fine, he was a scum, but everyone makes mistakes, no?

It is incredibly scummy. Peabody was scum, so not finding him suspicious IS scummy. That's not even my point though, you were voting with him and were ignoring the case/wagon against Peabody.

Really has no interest in explaining any of the points I've raised against him, is instead going back to his CoCo vote, when it's VERY unlikely CoCo is scum. If scum were going to bus yesterday, it would have been bussing CoCo since I can't imagine they would think he'd last long. CoCo was clearly the town alternative to the scum lynch yesterday.

How can I be interested in arguing with you, when you just closed the case with 'Cathart - 100% scum' result and you are ignoring EVERYTHING I'm trying to say here (the example with 'Defense' of Peabody is a prime example of this)? What's the point in it?

The only thing that you adequately addressed was about post 120, I just don't agree with what you've said. The other ones you just sluffed off, and proceeded with the CoCo hate.

Also, whether CoCo is scum or not, depends of certain point of view. You on the other hand just said 'CoCo is not a scum', and now you're acting, like it is confirmed already.

It seems extremely unlikely he is scum. I don't see why Peabody would have been lynch over CoCo when it is incredibly likely CoCo is going to be lynched at some point. Might as well bus CoCo, and then Peabody might get saved.

[charter]

Well, I still think Cathart is scum. I can see our back and forth isn't going anywhere, so I'm dropping it.

[charter]

Well, I was in a game where my scumbuddy claimed the scumteam just to prove someone else wrong midday, and we restarted. There it was a pretty clear cut case of ruining the game, and they were rightly banned. I've been in games where a scum's dying words were mentions of scumbuddies, and I've found the best thing to do is just ignore it. I think the right thing to do is to lynch Vaya if he is scummy enough to deserve it, not to eliminate WIFOM.

[charter]

Cathart
big gap
SC
Vaya

I really don't want to lynch anyone but Cathart. Not even CoCo at this point, since he seems to have stopped posting, which resolves the issue I had with him (his posts).

I see no reason to think there are just two scum, I'd rather keep assuming three and err on the side of caution. I'm not looking to debate number of scum though, it's a pointless debate.

[charter]

The problem is that most of the people aren't voting. If everyone were to vote, I'm pretty sure there would be a wagon or two.

CoCo, Cyberbob, Hoopla, le Chat, SerialClergyman, Vaya
You all should vote someone.

[charter]

My bad, missed that.

CoCo, Hoopla, le Chat, SerialClergyman, Vaya all need to vote.

[charter]

I've always liked the pact idea. Sorry for my big drop in posting, another game is at a crucial point and I'm still on my phone.

I like the coco lynch. I think Baka is very unlikely to be scum.

vote coco

What about Cathart? There's more choices than Vaya and CoCo. We could try and lynch scum today instead of a policy lynch, you know.

[charter]

You and mathcam should vote Cathart (so should everyone else).

[charter]

Ok, CoCo is back to being a possible lynch for me if I can't get Cathart lynched.

[charter]

Cathart, you still haven't given a good reason why you find CoCo suspicious. All you say is his behavior is erratic, and that's exactly the same thing that Peabody said, so... doesn't seem like a good reason to me.

[charter]

Wow. I think more people need to be voting Cathart.

[charter]

Am I totally off on this one or what?

No, this is why I'm not switching to Vaya.

[charter]

I want a claim too. People are way too edgy about claims.

It seems pointless to ask him to claim. He's already claimed his role can't confirm him, what are you going to do with the claim? Decide if you want to lynch him after he claims?

[charter]

Eh, upon further reflection, I can see some benefit to making Vaya fullclaim. I support it. I still think Cathart is scum and want him lynched however.

[charter]

OH DEAR GOD. LYNCH COCO AND CATHART NOW. WHY CANT I BE A DAYVIG IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS?

[charter]

I am serious, one of them should be dead before we're off this page.

[charter]

OH MY GOODNESS. NOT ENOUGH NOOSES.

unvote, vote Vaya

[charter]

Good point mathcam, Cathart's support of Vaya makes me want to lynch Cathart before Vaya. I saw the selfvote and my scumdar shattered, and in my excitement forgot about Cathart's take on Vaya.

unvote, vote Col.Cathart

[charter]

Why is Cathart's claim believable? I think it's incredibly convenient and unconfirmable and he's still scummy as hell and still should be lynched.

[charter]

I am pretty damn sure he is scum.

[charter]

Sounds to me like he is a mafia roleblocker and threw in the doctor because it makes it is 100% unconfirmable and seems way more protown than claiming "roleblocker" which is a death warrant.

[charter]

Well then, more power to you. Personally, I don't like taking those kinds of chances with roleclaims unless they're

really

obviously fake.

This seems kind of dumb, too. It sounds like you policy unvote claimed power roles. All scum have to do is claim something unconfirmable (doctor for instance, oh look at what Cathart claimed...) and they can skate by the rest of the game.

[charter]

Plus, I find it incredibly convenient that Cathart says he blocked Vaya night one and finds her suspicious and the kill still went through. Obviously possible with another buddy doing the killing, but still. Kind of contradictory.

[charter]

Uhhh, yeah. Else, what is the point of doing it?

Can we lynch him now?

[charter]

Yeah, not buying this.

[charter]

Well, I think everyone should weigh in (if they haven't already) and give their opinion on A) Cathart's scumminess and B) Cathart's claim.

A) Very scummy
B) Bogus

[charter]

Cyberbob, when would you consider lynching him? There is no advantage in keeping him alive. If he is town, his role will give us no more info if we let him live longer. If he is scum, like I said, he's probably a roleblocker. It's not like if he was an information role, where we should keep him alive another night. His role is 100% unconfirmable and gives town no information.

I don't see why this claim is believable to you and why you don't want to lynch him today.

[charter]

Either way: I want to hear from SC, Hoopla, le Chat and mathcam about this business.

Yes.

[charter]

I was actually thinking his roleblocker sounded kind of like a prostitute, which you would see in commieland.

Regardless, flavor speculation is not why he's scum.

[charter]

vote Vaya

[charter]

I would lynch Coco as well.

[charter]

I think he's scum. This chronic lurking is inexcusable. Killing off sens makes sense because you know he was going to push for Vaya's lynch non stop.

[charter]

Plus his selfvote.

[charter]

Do you want to comment on that now that Coco is still pushing you today?

No. CoCo's point was idiotic, and I'm still ignoring his posts and urge everyone else to do it as well. I had to go eat, and didn't have time to finish my thoughts, and in Coco's mental mind this is a scumtell.

Now, if you're saying that I tried to get Cathart lynched first and was basing my Peabodyscum thoughts on Cathart being scum, then you've got something pretty big against me, since Cathart was town and Peabody was scum. I know that this looks like I was distancing from Peabody while simultaneously trying to lynch a townie, and then using that to clear Peabody. I can't really say anything other than I thought Cathart was scummier and I thought Peabody's scumminess was mainly linked to Cathart and I was dead wrong.

[charter]

Actually,

unvote

.

Now that we know Cathart did block Vaya night one, but the kill still went through, I'm not too sure. I want to go back and reread and see what that turns up.

[charter]

The wiki says that a Coward is the same thing as a hider. It makes sense. I don't believe it's a survivor. Sens's play was not very smart if he was a survivor. We definitely need to see if he breadcrumbed who he was going to hide behind, since it's possible he was killed because he hid behind scum. I'll attempt to reread for clues tonight.

[charter]

The wiki says that a Coward is the same thing as a hider. It makes sense. I don't believe it's a survivor. Sens's play was not very smart if he was a survivor. We definitely need to see if he breadcrumbed who he was going to hide behind, since it's possible he was killed because he hid behind scum. I'll attempt to reread for clues tonight.

I flicked through Sens' Day 2 posts and couldn't find any signifigant hints as to who he would target. But if he died from hiding behind scum, where did the scum kill go?

I have some theories on this. The only one I can share without anti town repercussions is that Sens targeted scum and they targeted him for a kill. The others all have to do with role speculation, which I'm not going to discuss right now.

I don't really think it fruitful to discuss why there was just one death, but I do think it possible that sens died because he targeted scum.

[charter]

I have defended Hoopla? PLEASEOHPLEASE POINT IT OUT.

[charter]

Yeah, still trying to fit in a chunk of time large enough for my reread. I will try harder.

[charter]

Ok, my reread.

Leaning scum on Harum and town on Hoopla early on. I'm pretty sure Hoopla is not scum due to Peabody not really caring that it was Hoopla specifically at L-2 instantly and her vote on Peabody. Harum either votes or Fos's someone in every post.

Page seven now.

Plus, now that we know Harum doesn't have a post restriction, this is getting kind of fishy.

le chat in 241 mentions just about everyone but Peabody, kind of fencesitting too.

Hoopla had unvoted Peabody, but then revotes and puts steam in to the Peabody wagon again.

Page twelve now.

338 is SC's first post. Names just about everyone as town, except Cyberbob. Defends Peabody too.

448 by le Chat is... wierd.

Hmmm, I ask (and Hoopla seconds) SC about what he thinks of Peabody and Cathart. He promises to get back to us, but never does.

486 SC defends Peabody again. Talitha summed this up nicely in 489.

Towards the end of day one, SC seems willing to lynch just about anyone, except Peabody.

Not a whole lot from day two. From all this, I think SC is scum. I think Hoopla and mathcam are town. Cyberbob seems town, the only thing bugging me is his vote was on Peabody the entire day, never switched once. I have no idea on Coco. Pretty much the same with Vaya. le Chat is... a mystery to me. He posts very sporadically and I don't see a whole lot of commitment in any of his posts either. I'm not sure on him, but I don't think he's as scummy as SC.

I still want to go see if Sens breadcrumbed (didn't do that) so if I find something, I'll post it.

unvote, vote Serial

Some reasons.

Harum's illegible posts, and the fact he changed his vote (for an up and coming wagon) in each post, or FOS'ed someone.
Repeatedly calls Peabody as town.
Never gets back to us on his Peabody and Cathart reads.
Also, both Talitha (especially) and Sens were pretty suspicious of SC. I'm fairly certain that Talitha would have been all over him day two if she was alive.

[charter]

Uhhh, reasons there Vaya?

[charter]

le Chat, the only real defense I have against your 'charter was trying to lynch Cathart so he could be less suspicious of Peabody' is that Peabody was voting for me most of the day and was part of an awful wagon which somehow had many votes. I think if you look at Peabody's posts, they point towards him trying to lynch me. As far as your point, I thought Cathart was scummier, so I wanted to lynch him first. Clearly I was wrong.

Also, as Hoopla pointed out, SC was only on the Peabody wagon because he was online when Peabody claimed scum. SC had previously refrained from giving any opinion on Peabody and had said he didn't think Peabody's actions were scummy and that he thought Peabody was town.

[charter]

Where is my SerialClergyman?

[charter]

Given that there were only 2 scum the first time around, why aren't we taking the default position that there are 2 scum this time?

Definitely possible.. However, like Cyberbob said, I don't really think we're going to be able to figure out the setup.

CoCo pushes charter often, and I am currently fairly happy with my assessment that charter chose Col Cathart D1 over Peabody because he could lynch Cathart and then use it to hesitate D2 on Peabody. It fits.

I can't deny it, it does fit, but have you gone back and looked at Peabody's actions towards me day one? He was trying to lynch me for awful reasons. It's pretty indicative of him trying to mislynch me.

Without actually checking, I'm pretty sure I've been in/seen quite a few games with two scum and with somewhat normal town roles and not heavy powered scum roles. Sometimes this is offset by a survivor or traitor or SK.

but I don't think you really believe I'm scum. Maybe you do, and your case is just meagre. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm kind of waivering on it. I want to reread le chat some more too as well, since I think he could be some kind of super sneaky scum. His latest post seemed to be a platform he could jump off on to anyone who is garnering suspicion today.

re mathcam's post: I don't know what I can say, all of what you said is true. I messed up flip flopping day one, just have to try and make up for it now.

Unvote

Actually, after thinking it over a bit, I'm pretty sure that SC is town based on interactions with Peabody. Peabody rather blatantly defended SC Day 1, it feels a lot like him buddying up with a townie and not the sort of thing I would expect between two scum.

I'm really not sure who might be scum at the moment. I'll have to give it some more thought later, I'm honestly just posting to avoid the prod/replacement right now.

You still need to explain why you voted him in the first place. That vote isn't going to magically disappear.

[charter]

If this means anything about the setup speculation, I have the EXACT same role and flavor as I had game one.

Cyberbob, you keep talking about how great a Coco vote is, but can you point me to your posts where you explain it? I'm not really seeing your fascination with it.

We should totally pick up activity, a deadline would suck. We can definitely hammer this out and lynch scum today.

[charter]

Ok, went back to day two to look for breadcrumbs from Sens. The ONLY time he mentions someone other than Vaya/Cathart (outside of passing or whatever) is his last post, saying le Chat needs to grow a pair. Possible breadcrumb, though obviously not conclusive or anything.

However, I will

unvote

SC after rereading day two, and I think I'm probably going to move to le Chat. Going to dig up some reasons first.

[charter]

If you have already decided that you're likely to be voting le Chat next, wouldn't you need to have at least

some

form of reasoning in your mind?

Yes, I have reasons in the back of my mind, I need to go get specific examples and post numbers, which takes a little bit more time.

[charter]

Antiprod. Sorry.

[charter]

Ok, read up on our good friend, le Chat. Mostly pointing out how he doesn't take many solid stances on things.

I do not yet know what to think about Vaya v CoCo. I can absolutely understand now that the bandwagon didn't really threaten Hoopla (at first I saw 5 votes and immediately kneejerked "scum is on there!") once I think that if people would have made the last two votes they would have been extremely suspect so i bet nobody would hammer and that, yes, the wagon did bring about a lot of discussion more effectively than I had expected. However, CoCo is pushing very hard against Vaya and does not seem to come to the same understanding as I am. Right now though I feel like choosing between the two is just a false dilemma.

Comments on both sides, but doesn't actually say anything. Doesn't tell us what he thinks about either one.

pertaining to Peabody, I understand that pb was late with the RVS vote and could have simply remarked on the game's goings-on instead but i dont see how that is a scumtell.

Pretty sure I never saw this before, because this is similar to what SC said about Peabody, and I thought that made him scummy, so same deal with le Chat.

i think that its hard to feel comfortable with a read on coco because i feel like his aggression is naturally matched with his inability to recognize the fact that 'early reports' was just a phrase, he bit very hard on one piece of discussion and didnt let go for a very long time, and he felt the need to spend his time making a giant writeup that doesnt seem to prove any point. i feel like it is just who he is.

i dont find peabody's first post of a late rvs suspicious but i understand that that isnt the only thing pb has done. peabody your point in post 145 about mafia knowing if the wagon is full of townies is similar to what i said earlier towards vaya.

Once again, goes out of his way to talk about Coco but not say what le Chat thinks about him. I can't believe I also missed a second time that Chat defends Peabody. Also talks about Peabody but doesn't say what he thinks about him.

I kind of just stopped picking out all the specific examples, because all you have to do is look at his posts. I don't think I'm needed to point every one out. However, le Chat's vote was sitting quite uselessly on Vaya day one. Day two, he really didn't have anything.

i dont really think we should spend too much effort trying to outguess the nightkill. that seems like chasing ghosts. we can definitely remember what talitha said now that we know she wasn't scum, but i think more important is that peabody *was* scum, and we can work with that.

i think that peabody's wifom garbage doesn't matter and it doesn't make me any more or less suspicious of vaya. i sort of have to force myself to think that way, purposefully. I had my vote on vaya when Day 1 ended, and the peabody wagon finalized when I was away with the semester's first exams, but I'm not going to revote vaya. i think my vote is better off of him.

i reread Day 1 after I saw peabody was dead scum and I tried to find connections to his possible partner(s). a lot of people seemed to accept the fact that he was scum near the end, and pointed blame towards each other. the end of the wagon was confusing, mainly including talitha, sensfan, and serialclergyman. though talitha turned up vanilla townie, a patriot, god rest her soul, and it makes me rethink the Day 1 end scramble.

Peabody went after CoCo a fair amount. He also focused on Talitha.

His first real post day two. All he says is he isn't going to revote Vaya. He doesn't give us a suspect, even though there's a scum dead and he just reread!

No vote day two at all!

First vote of Day three is back on to Vaya, then an unvote. Today he's highlighted the argument against me, but he seems to be clinging to that but he's not looking for anything else. Also didn't look at Peabody's stance towards me day one.

I am going to

vote le chat

.

[charter]

Didn't realize I was putting him at L-1, should have checked and announced that.

Pretty sure I never saw this before, because this is similar to what SC said about Peabody, and I thought that made him scummy, so same deal with le Chat.

This should obviously be Col.Cathart, not SC. My bad.

[charter]

Also, this game just ended. Vaya was lurkerscum in there. He says postgame that it's no tell to his alignment, but I dunno. Just something to keep in mind I guess.

[charter]

PS. We should post, cause we have a deadline.

I am just waiting for le Chat. Don't really have much to say until he comes back to find himself being the wagonee.

[charter]

MOD, what is the prod/replacement status of le Chat?

[charter]

Ugh, this is bad news. Coco and le Chat are both getting replaced. These are the two realistic lynch candidates we have today. A replacement isn't going to be able to defend their predecessor's actions.

I dunno. I see two ways to handle this. Go ahead and lynch one and save Kublai the trouble of finding a replacement, or wait for all of the slots to get filled, let the replacements read, then take it from there.

Honestly, I think le Chat's actions are lynch worthy and unless his replacement finds some undiscovered gold mine, I'm probably still going to want to lynch him.

Welcome Socrates.

[charter]

Argh, I will take another look at Coco and see what I think about him. le Chat seems most likely to be scum to me, but yeah, not really interested in this day dragging out.

[charter]

Wow. Thanks a lot Kublai, thanks guys for replacing.

Guess that answers the question of whether or not to wait.

[charter]

I am pretty sure that in every setup hider resolves before just about everything (if not everything) else, so roleblocking doesn't seem plausible to me. Not submitting an action is obviously possible/probable.

[charter]

My guess would be he hid behind Cyberbob or le Chat.

I think we should stop debating all the speculation regarding Sens dying. Unless you can come up with something concrete, I don't know what good it's actually going to do. Obviously everyone is free to think what you want, but I don't think anyone is getting convinced of something else from all this.

[charter]

I don't know why you would bother not hiding. It's a pretty handy town-confirmer.

I've been a hider before, it's very easy to not hide. You don't want to die and you go paranoid thinking "what if" over and over. Although, I just flat out claimed start of day two and said I had to hide every night, then didn't hide any more.

[charter]

Can you guys give opinions on more than just the scummiest players? All of your predecessors ranged from highly questionable to probable scum, and just chiming in just to pile on each other in order to save yourselves isn't really that helpful and probably won't help you out.

[charter]

I'm not really comfortable giving out a full list with town reads at this point, but if you have any specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.

I want to know specifically what you think about each player.

[charter]

I am quickly finding myself wanting to lynch Raskol because he is continuing Coco's streak of trying to be as unhelpful and unreadable as possible.

[charter]

Just a general comment: I'm totally fine not drawing any conclusions about who Sens

did

hide with it, but I do think it's pretty clear that he

wouldn't

have hid with CoCo. I have a mental picture of a hider has not being able to choose not to hide, but I think my knowledge of hiders may be several years out of date. If that was an option, I definitely see Sens not hiding as a possibility, though I tend to agree with Hoopla that you might as well...especially if you can work in a breadcrumb beforehand.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, hiding behind Coco doesn't seem possible without an obvious breadcrumb.

To expand on my last post, Raskol comes in replacing one of the scummy players, who seemed to make it his personal mission to create havoc, and only mentions the other big lynch contender, le Chat. And this is a really really small mention too, and didn't say anything new. I have absolutely no idea what he thinks about anything else in the game. I asked him to provide some more, but he gets all defensive saying that it only helps scum. Not true, and at the least, very very anti town of him. Basically Raskol came in and jumped on the biggest wagon and hasn't said two words about anyone else. Unacceptable and scummy.

[charter]

unvote, vote Raskol

I'm down with this.

[charter]

I also had a brainwave earlier today. I don't remember Coco/le Chat interacting hardly at all. Possible they can both be scum.

[charter]

No. Honestly, the scummiest thing about SC is he isn't glaringly protown, just kind of meh. Your case of "he's scum" isn't terribly convincing either.

[charter]

No. Honestly, the scummiest thing about SC is he isn't glaringly protown, just kind of meh. Your case of "he's scum" isn't terribly convincing either.

Really,

you're

going to complain about a lack of formalized case work?

I'm not complaining, I'm saying your case is not persuading me. I think that since day one, he's been pretty town.

@Charter: What do you think of my analysis of SC in relation to Peabody?

All I found that you said was that SC defended Peabody some, which I agree with and mentioned myself earlier today. Cathart did this as well, so did le Chat, and I believe coco did. I kind of did by jumping ship and attacking others day one. I dunno, I'm not as sold on it as I was before.

[charter]

To expand on my last post, Raskol comes in replacing one of the scummy players, who seemed to make it his personal mission to create havoc, and only mentions the other big lynch contender, le Chat. And this is a really really small mention too, and didn't say anything new. I have absolutely no idea what he thinks about anything else in the game. I asked him to provide some more, but he gets all defensive saying that it only helps scum. Not true, and at the least, very very anti town of him. Basically Raskol came in and jumped on the biggest wagon and hasn't said two words about anyone else. Unacceptable and scummy.

[charter]

Also, for me, scumhunting and getting read son people is a process of interaction. I get stronger and better opinions of people after I've been able to poke them a bit and see how they jump. Reading other people's interactions and analyzing them after the fact isn't my strong point. I actually think of myself as being rather easy to read, but it comes out in the way I interact with people, not in summary posts. If at the end of the day you still have no idea what I think about anyone, you can go ahead and lynch me if it's really such a matter of concern for you. But whining that I won't have it all out for you by my second post isn't going to help you out, or anyone else.

After Raskol said this, I decided my vote is parked for the day. He is making quite an effort to NOT interact with anyone, which he claims is how he scumhunts. So far, instead of scumhunting, he is waiting for people to nitpickingly ask him questions, I guess so he can give his answers? He has asked a grand total of three questions directed at players (barring his 'ask me specifics' question), and all are directed at Hoopla.

I really don't think I'm "whining" or "raging" here. I simply asked you for opinions on more than just le Chat (very reasonable in my opinion), then you get all defensive, then I ask for what you think about everyone, then you get even more defensive.

He's waiting for other people to ask him questions so that he can just answer, no interest in finding scum. He's actually going out of his way to not do anything, and instead is waiting for others to do his work for him. I find Raskol scummier than Coco, which is saying something.

[charter]

Charter - could you explain your read of me a little more thoroughly?

I ask because I've been looking at this game and shaking my head at my play. I can't seem to get a read, get a theory. I've been using bandwagon analysis to try to conjure something, just to try to get a spark. I find very little to differentiate the players in the game and I'm posting very little essentially because I refuse to post opinions that are made up or that I don't really believe in.

Uhhh, before I thought you were scum because your play day one was bad. Mine was too. I haven't disagreed with anything you've said really since then. If you want more, the post where I voted you explains what I saw, most of it was questionable interactions with Peabody.

[charter]

People keep saying this, what is so unreasonable for me to ask for his thoughts on more than just one person? He didn't say anything new about le Chat. I don't get it.

At first I just wanted to know what he thought about people besides just le Chat, then he got all in a huff and I pressed harder.

[charter]

Also, Mathcam, what do you make of Raskol claiming he scumhunts by interacting with other players, but then he sits back and demands that we quiz him (as SC so elegantly put it)? He flat out refuses to do anything but answer questions. I actually find him to be quite a bit scummier than Coco.

[charter]

Well, what he's doing I think is scummy too. He's refusing to do much and justifying it by saying, 'well, it will just help scum'. I'd argue that it helps town more than scum, but that's not really the point. I think it's scummy to use that excuse to avoid giving opinions on people. I really see no town reason for him to not talk about more than just le Chat. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've been caught as scum trying to pass off 'it helps scum' as a reason for not answering a question.

[charter]

Damn. The jig is up. I haven't read a damn word the whole game. My strawman answer to the strawman question.

[charter]

Why haven't we lynched Raskol yet?

[charter]

Your alignment is scum.

[charter]

This has been made abundantly clear by myself, cyberbob, and anyone else voting you. Have you actually been reading the thread?

[charter]

You said like two words about Hoopla and some back and forth with SC, but didn't say much about him. Pulling teeth is less painful than getting your opinions on players. You have much more interest in petty arguments than you do with finding scum.

You also aren't actually trying to refute any of reasons anyone has voted you with, instead, more pointless arguments.

[charter]

Why haven't we lynched Raskol yet?

Well I don't know why you and whatever scum have declared their interest in lynching him haven't done so yet, but I'm not helping out since he's not scum.

And you're basing this on....??

[charter]

Have you seen him play as scum?

Coco actually was scummy.

[charter]

Ok, so after SC pries, you say your predecessor was scummy. This is like a double whammy. Then you throw out SC's name, but turn right around and take it back.

Second quote says nothing and is based on poor logic.

Third quote is really all you've said about anyone, and it's the two words I've been talking about.

Your fourth quote says nothing about anyone either, but is wrong to boot. Pretty sure a le Chat lynch would have been really easy for SCscum, assuming le Chat isn't his buddy.


So yeah, thanks for putting my whole case together in one post, very kind of you.

[charter]

And plus, if YOU even thought CoCo was scummy before you got in, how do you blame anyone else for finding him suspicious? Kind of a no brainer.

[charter]

Ha, was glancing through Raskol's posts in that other game.

I disagree that PBPA's are scummy. They can be used by scum, but they're just as valuable for town to use in certain cases. They're a tool which either side can use. That's why you can't just say that PBPA's are scummy in general and leave it at that. You have to look at the actual situation and takes things in context.

You have to look at what the player is doing with it before you can say whether it's scummy or not. Are the points made in the PBPA good ones or bad ones? Who is the target? What are the circumstances? What does it look like the player is trying to achieve? Does that help town or not? You have to consider all those things. Sure, a PBPA can be used to make things look scummy that aren't, but so can any other way of making a case. If it does something antitown like that, then you can attack someone for that, but it's not just because they made a PBPA.

Have you been reading my posts at all?

I mean, come on, it's practically a word for word copy of the strawman he pulled in this game.

[charter]

By nothing I mean you don't give your opinion on other players' alignments. All that I know about what you think of other players' alignments is DDD is scum and HOopla is town. But there's no vote or anything to actually show this, so who knows.


Why am I still arguing this?

[charter]

Have you been reading my posts at all?

Have you actually been reading the thread?

It's almost copy and pasted.

[charter]

charter: That's silly. I post a lot of the same stuff whether I'm town or scum, because I believe a lot of the same stuff whether I'm town or scum. You haven't made

any

points on Raskol that aren't very reasonably attributed to having a consistent, and not

that

unreasonable, playstyle.

Yes, but I would bet you that he doesn't try and use that to get people off his back as town. It's a way of defending against an argument by trying to make the person making the argument look stupid. This is a really poor and ineffective way of defending yourself. Another reason I'm suspicious of Raskol. Instead of actually trying to be helpful and explain to me what I'm missing, he just quotes his posts and starts insulting me.

Coco was the first person who was scummy in this game. Stemming back to him trying to lynch Vaya, not figure out if Vaya was scum or not. There is certainly a case for Coco being scum. I just think there's an even better one for Raskol being scum.

[charter]

The fact that Raskol is trying to defend his insulting behavior instead of just dropping it makes me EVEN HAPPIER lynching him. Seems like he's willing to fight anyone about anything.

[charter]

If that will make you happy, sure. We've talked about policy lynching Coco every day. Glad that we can finally get around to doing it.

[charter]

le Chat wasn't useless or anti-town, he was scummy. Big difference. He consistently gave weak opinions on players and waffled on them, which is scummy. It lets you figure out what most of the town is thinking and then you can agree and step on as few toes as possible. There was also virtually no scumhunting in his posts. Hardly any votes either.

[charter]

Alright, is anyone not voting Raskol willing to vote him? I'm not going to keep trying to lynch him if he can't realistically get two more votes.

[charter]

Well, the way I see it is we need two of Hoopla, mathcam and Socrates to vote Raskol, if that's not going to happen, my vote is going elsewhere.

[charter]

It's like an early Christmas present, Cyberbob, we just need one more vote now.

[charter]

Well, the way I see it is we need two of Hoopla, mathcam and Socrates to vote Raskol, if that's not going to happen, my vote is going elsewhere.

Just out of curiosity...where else would you be willing to put your vote at this point?

Will probably be useful info later.

Yeah, I'm not saying this until others say if they're willing to vote you. It can definitely influence others' opinion on whether or not they would vote you. Scummy, but good try though.

[charter]

And you're basing this on the fact that both me and SC are voting for you and not DDD??

Seriously, your logic (if there is any at all) is so scummy it is mind boggling.

[charter]

If DDD flips town, I'm pretty sure charter and SC are our scumbuddies.

I'd also like to point out that this kind of setting up lynches is abhorrently antitown and I'm betting that he knows that a DDD lynch followed by a charter/SC lynch would be game.

This raises an interesting point though, this would mean that one of mathcam, Cyberbob, Hoopla, Socrates is Raskol's partner, which is a difficult swallow right now.

Why on earth would you think that's my basis? Did I say anything like that?

Well, since you refuse to be helpful, I have to fill in the blanks myself. Neither of us are voting DDD, so it seems bizarre (to say the least) that you try and chain lynch one of us.

[charter]

le Chat wasn't useless or anti-town, he was scummy. Big difference. He consistently gave weak opinions on players and waffled on them, which is scummy. It lets you figure out what most of the town is thinking and then you can agree and step on as few toes as possible. There was also virtually no scumhunting in his posts. Hardly any votes either.

So the fact that the player slot is town aligned just further backs my argument then, huh? Just continues to show that "anti-town" and "scummy" behavior really don't correlate terribly well to whether or not a player is scum and looking beyond the superficial is critical.

This is really circular, and not ever going to convince anyone, but what do you make of Raskol's "lynch DDD, then if he flips town lynch charter/SC"?

[charter]

Are you talking about setting up a lynch if the first person is scum? That's not scummy, just naming scumbuddies.

Raskol is preemptively setting up another lynch if the first one is town, which is scummy.

[charter]

Usefulness be damned, not switching off Raskol.

[charter]

I love how Raskol goes from wanting to lynch DDD (when he first replaced in) though never votes DDD. Then he changes to Serial and votes him. Then goes back to DDD and votes him. Then says that a Raskol lynch would clear DDD as town. SERIOUSLY, HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? He's practically arguing that he (Raskol) is scum.

Plus, he keeps saying a DDD townflip will clear him while condemning me and Serial. Seriously? Sounds to me like he knows DDD is town, sees he is going down, and is planting seeds in everyone's head for his coast to victory.

[charter]

No. You're arguing that your hypotownflip will clear DDD. You're voting DDD. Supposedly (at least you're supposed to say you're town, not sure what you're doing) you are protown, which means that you think your flip would clear DDD as town. But you're still voting DDD.

[charter]

Hoopla, my Raskol read is ridiculously strong. Just because Sens didn't hide behind Coco, doesn't mean Coco isn't scum. For all we know, Sens didn't hide, and I'm not buying in to lynching someone who Sens could have hid behind over someone who is almost assuredly scum.

[charter]

Oh, and I'd also like both you and charter to tell everyone why you're still voting me.

Especially pertinent---have your reasons changed at all since you first voted me?

Oh boy, where to begin. I'll try and go in rough chronological order.

• Refuses to talk about anyone but le Chat when he replaces in (scummy)
  
• Barely says anything about le Chat, and brings nothing new to the table (scummy)
  
• Demanding that everyone else quiz him (anti town)
  
• Claims he scumhunts by interacting with others, yet refuses to do so unless others ask him questions (scummy)
  
• Defending himself by saying he can't be scum since Sens wouldn't have hid behind Coco (anti town)
  
• OMGUS voted Serial (scummy)
  
• Constantly throwing tantrums and insulting others (anti town)
  
• Identical strawman to another game he was scum in (scummy)
  
• Says he thought Coco was scum before he replaced in (scummy)
  
• Is overeager to fight anyone over anything, example where Cyberbob tells him to stop being insulting (scummy)
  
• All his self vote threatening (scummy)
  
• Logic like if DDD flips town, he thinks those not voting him are confirmed scum (not sure how to classify this)
  
• Setting up lynches (anti town)
  
• Saying that his townflip will clear DDD, but he is voting DDD (scummy)
  
• Coco's play (scummy)

[charter]

Raskol, I can't believe by now you haven't figured out I have no interest in arguing with you.

[charter]

I dunno. I'd wager town.

[charter]

mod, can we get a votecount

Killing puppies is less painful than this.

unvote

Need to see the votecount before deciding who I am going to vote.

[charter]

DDD, can you give the reasons you're voting for SC? Preferably something other than "he's scum" or "vote analysis".

[charter]

Raskol, you're the only person who is saying I'm imagining up a case on you.

Maybe, instead of throwing tantrums, like that right there, you can try and do something productive.

[charter]

vote Raskol

I don't even care if he's scum or not anymore. He is so horribly antitown that I'm done until he's lynched.

[charter]

Serial, why did you unvote?

[charter]

Serial, selfvoting is the penultimate antitown act. In no way does putting yourself at L-1 not a scummy act. How can he continually act scummier and you're still far from convinced? Who the hell do you want to lynch, then?

[charter]

Yeah, when I requested the votecount, I was actually preparing to vote SC, because his theories have these gigantic holes in them, and I know that as town, his theories are air tight.

His latest 'mathcam is scum' theory, for example, is ridiculous and doesn't make sense.

His Hoopla and charter are scum theory, is also ridiculous (at least from my point of view) and really isn't backed up by anything.

Post 1287 just doesn't make a bit of sense.

The only reason I see for him to unvote Raskol is if he knows Raskol is town and doesn't want to be on the lynch. Seriously, self voting is ridiculously anti town and I don't see how it can lessen suspicion of anyone.

[charter]

Also, no lynching today is idiotic. Just pointing that out.

[charter]

Serial, your charter vote has, yet another, hole in it. You weren't in the game at the time, I believe, but there was a horrible wagon on me for a large part of day one. Peabody was on said wagon for awful reasons.

It seems like you've pinned yourself in to a corner here with your scumteam theories, since none of them are making sense. The most logical explanation is you know they are bogus.

Reviewing DDD's case and my own earlier one on SC...

[charter]

Of course he doesn't try hard to lynch or pressure me. He knows I'm town and doesn't want to be responsible for being a major part in a town lynch. But if he can contribute to it with his vote and pull a fast one, great job for him.

I think there's a pretty good chance both of you are scum. After your unvote, it makes a lot more sense to me to lynch you first, since you have motivation to unvote him if you're scum regardless of his alignment.

[charter]

Oh, well the reason I was thinking of switching is because I was thinking Raskol wouldn't be able to actually get lynched. However, since my unvote, I'm finding that each scumteam theory you come out with seems less likely than the one before it, and like I said, the probable explanation is that you know they're bogus.

[charter]

As for why I was thinking of switching to you, it was mostly that of everyone but Raskol, I found you most suspicious.

[charter]

Serial, from what I gather, this whole thing stems from "if you think raskol is town". First, there's really no reason to think this in the least. Second, you, up until very recently, supposedly thought he was scum. What has changed this?

It seems like you've now shifted to charter/Hoopla because you can't come up with a plausible buddy for Raskol. That's really not a good reason to write off Raskol as town, which is what I think you've done.

[charter]

See, here is another hole. Even if we lynch you today and you're town, your theory is still wrong, since I KNOW I'm town.

When I said I didn't care if he was scum or not, I still thought he was scum, but didn't care because he was literally doing everything in his power to hurt the town (which is what self voting is if you're town) and he's every bit the liability Coco was in lylo.

And also, before you said mathcam was town if Vaya and Coco were, I believe, but didn't elaborate. Now all of a sudden he's one of your biggest town reads? Before he was only town if your assumption that two other players were town was right.

Basically, I don't see Hoopla or Cyberbob as scum, and right now, you and Raskol is what looks like the most plausible scumteam to me.

It's like every time you plug up a hole in your latest theory, a new one forms. You seem to be digging yourself in to a bigger and bigger hole here.

[charter]

Pffft, now you're saying it's two of me, cyberbob, and Hoopla? Seems awfully convenient to just lynch me first then. Why am I more likely to be scum than either of those two? I think us three are three of those least likely to be Peabody's scumbuddy. You're falling in to the trap of process of elimination, but you're not basing it on who is likely to be Peabody's scumbuddy.

Bussing day one doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but bussing now would be great, especially for the people that just replaced in. It seems like you are selectively choosing what parts of the game you are taking in to account when coming up with these theories. For example, I really don't see how you're clearing le Chat here. He was pretty scummy, and DDD has done nothing but try and lynch you. Doesn't seem all that townie from your point of view, but that's one of the qualifiers for your theory. Another would be how on earth you've all of a sudden cleared Raskol. His play gets scummier and it makes you think he's townier?

[charter]

Socrates, can you explain which of Raskol/SC or Raskol/DDD you find more likely? I think both of these are definitely possible, but I am currently finding myself wanting to vote SC even though Raskol is the common element there, because of SC's unvote. SC's unvote put some doubt in my head about Raskol being scum, and between DDD and Serial, I find Serial scummier.

[charter]

Ummm, If I was scum, not voting you, and hadn't declared you town, I would absolutely have hammered you if you're town. Would have just posted "Self voted? Check. Claimed Vanilla for no reason? Check. Hammer? Check."

Your self vote makes you look really scummy, just that Serial's unvote is even worse. Plus, I've seen scum put themselves at L-1 and escape lynch AND WIN THE GAME. So, when someone says selfvoting is scummy, they are 100% correct.

The fact that you didn't get hammered, to me, makes you look WAAAAYYYAY scummier.

[charter]

Because it's a ploy to remove votes from you without actually having to address the reasons people are voting you. Right now, it's ridiculously easy to self vote and for some reason, everyone goes "oh, well, he wouldn't do that as scum" and they just write you off for the rest of the game. A brilliant move as scum if you pull it off. Instead of explaining why voting for you is bad, you just try some trick to get people to unvote.

Your comparison is dumb and you know it. You know perfectly well those aren't the same thing.

[charter]

Raskol, I just explained how, if you're town, scum quickhammering you would have been a great idea. That didn't happen, which, regardless of what goes on in your head, does not make you more likely to be town.

[charter]

Mathcam, what do you make of Serial's unvote and sudden 180 on Raskol after he self votes?

[charter]

So invitational 4 is over now, and difference in play is a huge reason I'm leaning towards Serial. Blindingly protown in that game, not very much here.

[charter]

Unvote

I thought I wasn't voting, remembered wrong.

[charter]

And dammit, at least if you lynch raskol over me we can look more closely at my theory tomorrow if he flips town, and you can flat out lynch me if he flips scum and I'm wrong. Lynching me and getting town will give you bugger all to go on other than this theory I have is good-intentioned and now you're in lylo trying to guess who isn't scum.

No. Scummy. This deal you're offering makes me pretty sure that you're scum and Raskol is town. This deal, while looking protown (though isn't at all), falls apart 100% when we lynch Raskol and he flips town. Plus, why on earth would you offer yourself up if Raskol flips scum? This just looks like you're trying to get someone to bite on this deal, which is really antitown if you're town.

I'm going to go back and try and find some concrete contradictions/holes in your plans in the past few pages, pretty sure there are some in there, just got to find them.

[charter]

Hmmm, that is right, I did suspect you. Happened so long ago, I forgot it. However, I'm still going to go back and look for the holes I am pretty sure are there.

[charter]

If you have a look at D2, I was prepared to lynch him then too. So possibly I went the double bus/back down.

I decide to bus, I push the case as hard if not harder than anyone, I goad him into posting his own L-1 vote then shit gets too real for me and I unvote my scumbuddy?

That's the working theory?

You've never really pushed very hard for him, certainly not day two, not really today either. So yeah, you two being buddies does look likely.

[charter]

Well, this is shaping up to be a short read. First post after Raskol puts himself at L-1:

It's both stupid and scummy to self vote

Serial says he isn't positive Raskol is scum, but unvotes even after Raskol commits a scummy act. I suppose you could want more time, but it doesn't look very townie to me.
Then, you come up with your theory in post 1287. This one magically pops up after you unvote Raskol and he selfvotes. This is that charter/Hoopla are scum. It stems entirely from assuming that le Chat and Coco and mathcam are town, when there's really no reason to assume this. You don't elaborate either.

You argue for no lynching some, which is a really awful idea. Then you argue for it some more saying you'd be happy with it if scum kill mathcam. Ok.... Like that's likely if you're both town after you post that.

Then you explain why you rule out Coco/le Chat. Really weak reasoning, you write off distancing as not possible. I don't see why Coco or le Chat can't be scum with someone else, why do they have to be scum together?

You say that Peabody's vote for me doesn't clear me because he wasn't pushing for my lynch. He never pushed for anyone's lynch though. I believe I was at L-2 for a while (didn't actually check, just memory), so if he could be quiet about his vote and score a mislynch, that seems like a rocking plan.

You say that me and Hoopla aren't bringing up good objections to your theories. Here's another one. You assume that mathcam, Vaya, and Cyberbob are all town and you rule them out as possible buddies. However, there's really not much preventing them from being buddies with le Chat or Coco, other than they haven't been playing scummy. Entirely possible they are scum and just playing well, but you've completely written it off. le Chat has practically no connections to anyone, and Coco has so many you could never pick out the fake ones. You're ignoring individual scumminess and only considering pairs of scumminess. A dangerous pitfall if someone playing well is scum, you'll never have a chance to suspect them.

And no, I still think Raskol is scummy as hell, but your unvote and now writing him off completely as town seems a heck of a lot like distancing from a mislynch. I can't just try and lynch Raskol today, and if he flips town go for you tomorrow. Already made a huge mistake similar to that with Cathart. Got to get it right today.

[charter]

Well, I'm more sure Serial is scum at this point than Raskol.

vote Serial

[charter]

I basically don't think Serial's plan will help the town at all, and I think he's scum and it gives him a win. I KNOW I'm town, and I would bet that at least one of Cyberbob and Hoopla is too. I think he's written off too many people for too weak of reasons in order to formulate this plan so that it sounds plausible and gives him a win.

[charter]

Interesting, I'd seen where Sens said that and said it could have been a breadcrumb, but I never made a connection between coward and his post. That's actually a really good point, Raskol.

I kind of question why you would bring this up though, since if DDD flips scum, you look like a plausible partner for him since he is writing off all of Coco's play as dumb but not scummy.

I will have to mull this over.