Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Sotty7]

Hey everyone. I'm going to be replacing James. I was reading along with the game but I have kinda lagged the last few pages. It shouldn't take me too long to catch up.

[Sotty7]

Alright caught up. Question time.

popsofctown

Putting TMJ to one side, who else do you suspect, why?

DeathRowKitty

You keep saying that you don't want to lynch the claimed doc, but you haven't done a whole lot to push your case on Jammer either. Why is that?

jammer

Do you always throw your vote around so much?

Cruciare

Despite what others say, I actually like your playing style. I don't have a question for you ATM.

Vi

Why are you voting for Pops? Is the deadline factoring into it?

Tjoe Min Ja

Who else is scummy to you aside from Pops to you?

Porkens

Who's your number one suspect?

Col.Cathart

Your 195 seems to suggest you had stronger reasons to vote DRK over TMJ. Why didn't you switch your vote?

sigma

Why aren't you posting more? I really liked your post 148 but since then you have kinda floated under the radar. It's not good.

afatchic

Can you expand on your feeling that Cruciare is scum?

imaginality

Do you find Vi scummy for her case on you?

Some of these answers will help in forming my final opinions on the players. I'll be posting some more later today.

[Sotty7]

First of all, hello again Sotty. Pleasure playing with you again ;]

Right back at you. That's why I wanted to replace into this game, it's stock full of players I have played with before and had a good game with, or players I know though association and want to play with. The only players I don't know in that respect are Cruciare and TJM.

About your question: I don't really know, where did you get that. In 195 and in the next post I stated why my vote stays on TMJ. His play is IMO terrible, and when combined with his early statements, I still think he's more scummy than DRK. Especially, that his

[TMJ's]

play didn't improved, as I hoped. Besides DRK answered all of my questions. For now my case on him is sitting in place to the point, when I'll know either pops or jammers alignment. Or when he'll say something scummy.

Probably from my own perspective. In my opinion your case on TMJ isn't that good. Yeah he said some scummy things, but I think Cruciare's assessment of TMJ in post 135 hits the nail on the head. TMJ might deny he is a newbie, but nothing about his play has shown me that he really knows what he is doing/saying. So it looks like an easy place for scum to park a vote. However your case on DRK is based a little more in actual scum hunting in my opinion and I think would have been a better home for your vote.

However with that said, I would much rather lynch TMJ over Pops today, but neither is my ideal lynch.

bodyslam: sotty7

hai!

Standing dropkick: Porkens

for old times sake

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post Porkens. I won't be voting for Pops today and I will vote TMJ if deadline calls for it.

[Sotty7]

I will be going into that ASAP, it ties into some of my questions. If I don't get answers by the end of the day I'll be posting my cases anyway. Can't wait around too long because of the deadline.

[Sotty7]

Welcome to the game, sotty!

That's why I wanted to replace into this game, it's stock full of players I have played with before and had a good game with, or players I know though association and want to play with. The only players I don't know in that respect are Cruciare and TJM.

I'm curious -- did I play with an alt of yours? Or did you forget to include me in with Cruciare and TMJ?

No, I don't have an alt. You fall into the second group of players that I know by association. I'm married to Zachrulez, so I know just how good of a scum player you can be. But so far I like what I see from you, just want more. Yeah, I'm greedy.

However with that said, I would much rather lynch TMJ over Pops today, but neither is my ideal lynch.

The who is, and why?

This is interesting. To me, posts like this are slightly scummy. Pressuring a replacement for thoughts on their lynch candidates before all the questions she asked have been answered seems a bit dodgy to me. Combined with Cathart's "Hamlet" approach to deciding if pops is town or not, makes the colonel look a little more likely as scum, in my opinion.

I don't think it is particularly scummy of CC to ask me who I think should be the lynch. I probably would have asked me the same question in his situation considering the deadline rushing up. Still agree there is something off about the Col.

Another interpretation of your actions is that you're distancing yourself from what you know to be a mis-lynch by defending the lynch candidate, but only doing it when you know it's unlikely to save him.

This is one way to look at it. The reason I asked Porkens who his number one was because he never really stated that clearly in thread one way or the other. Some players play like this, with the “pressure” votes regardless of alignment.

So with your vote on TMJ Porkens, does that mean he is your number one right now? Who's your number two?

[Sotty7]

Vi

Why are you voting for Pops? Is the deadline factoring into it?

The only explanation I can come up with for pops' actions at this point is Refuge in Audacity; I know pops can play better than he has so far. (Besides, isn't reading the game you want to replace into BEFORE you jump in kind of what most people do anyway? Then why the surprise?)
The deadline is a factor because it's stifling discussion to a degree, not that I seem to be able to do much about that...

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

jammer

Do you always throw your vote around so much?

Nope, does the voting bother you?

Kinda makes me take your vote less seriously, like you don't believe in your own suspects. If you don't normally do this, why in this game?

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

Going out to eat, I'll be back later to post my top suspects.

[Sotty7]

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

porkens

This isn't helpful. For one the question isn't even directed at you TMJ and B, you list no reasons. You are once again sheeping (somewhat recent) popular opinion and is the reason why people find you suspicious in the first place. I'm guessing you are telling me Porkens is your number two after Pops, alright, why?

hmmm, I see where this suspicion wagon is headed lemme say this now:

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

TMJ jumping on it is just another senseless action to add to his pile.

I don't have "suspects" insomuch as I have a mental list of "good lynches"

TMJ is the best lynch so far today.
Cruciare wouldn't be terrible either so I guess there's your answer.

I don't think there is a case on you as of right now. A few people have aired suspicions but you have no votes. I have some suspicion of you but it has nothing to do with the two points you have listed and more to do with the lack of actual suspects. Good lynches just feels like a scum phrase to explain away mislynches, at least what's what my paranoia is telling me. Of course you could just be one of those players that plays more gut over laying out suspects and I will have to look into that. We have only played together once and it was in a game I would rather forget as my play was awful (Letting Zero live is something I will never live down). I will have a look back at it this weekend and see if the play is similar or not.

---

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

In a sense. The thought process worked like this.
*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.
*However, from what I know of pops' meta, it's not entirely out of line for him to play like lynchbait (unintentionally) as Town.
So at the time of his claim -1 + 1 = 0, and I didn't feel I had a definitive idea of what to do with it.
*However, then pops started playing like lynchbait (intentionally).
I really can't rationalize pops as not realizing how bad he sounds

and not doing anything about it

. Then again, I have this same complaint about at least one other player in this game so <_<

Okay, that does seem reasonable. But I do have an issue with you and Pops claim which makes me believe you are scum. Lets go back in time...

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

I give up.

No you don't.

At this time I don't have an objection to pops' claim.

When reading I took this as you welcomed the claim seeing Pops was at lynch-1. But also you thought it was believable. I'm pretty sure you would have said something if you didn't believe him. You weren't voting him at this point and had said you would hammer.

This would be the part where I vote you, but I really don't want to end the Day before afatchic shows up. TMJ showing up and commenting about almost being the center of attention would be nice too.

So “no objection” and no mention of your hammer intentions makes me think you believed his claim when he made it.

Then we get this:

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

I'm not sure what the optimal play for us is in this situation, but I'm not buying it. If however lynching Pops today is not going to happen, like I said I would be fine moving my vote to Jammer. Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

Vaguely scummy because he could be testing the waters to see how lynchable Pops is right now. But it could be a valid new player question too.

Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

My advice at this point is to make your own decisions, starting as of your last post.

Cruciare, what is TMJ if pops=Town? None of this "consider"ing mess. Take a stance.

I think Porkens may be on the right track with what he's saying (>")>

EBWOP: My advice at this point is for you to make your own decisions, etc.

Vi pushes Cruciare to take a stance, which is right. We're not in a newbie game, no hand holding needed here. Cruciare comes back and basically validates her vote on Pops. This gets this response from Vi.

@Cruciare: Wanting to lynch a claimed power role is only unreasonable if you don't have a good reason to back up your vote. If you think pops is scum and pulling this claim out of his rear, go for it.

For someone who at this point believed Pops claim, this seems really out of place. At this point I am starting to think the “no objection” to the claim was purposely worded in such away that gives Vi the ability to roll either way in regards to the Pops claim. Here she is telling Cruciare to keep her vote on the claimed Doc, despite having voiced no objections to the claim herself. It doesn't add up. In my opinion it is a subtle attempt to keep the wagon on Pops alive in the hope that she might be able to lynch the (hypo)doc.

Vote: Vi

I understand it's pretty unlikely I am going to get a Vi lynch today. I will move my vote at deadline to TMJ unless a better suspect comes up.

[Sotty7]

Several people now have said they find Cruciare scummy in some way. Maybe I am missing something. I'm willing to review my stance if something solid is brought forward.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7: The reason for your vote on me, if I understand you correctly, is that I took an ambiguous stance toward pops' claim. If so, you are correct. I have shown you my arguments for and against pops' claim and therefore why I did not know what to do with it.
Therefore this is where I would object.

So “no objection” and no mention of your hammer intentions makes me think you believed his claim when he made it.

I can see how you came to this conclusion, but it's not accurate.
My advice to Cruciare later was based on him having a decided opinion of pops' claim, whereas I didn't.

Basically, I think you believed the claim while at the same time encouraged another player to keep their vote on Pops. Those two things don't add up to me.

Several people now have said they find Cruciare scummy in some way. Maybe I am missing something. I'm willing to review my stance if something solid is brought forward.

There's something questionable about you hugging me like this. Isn't it a great coincidence that James said something about liking my approach here? D=

No it has nothing to do with that. We just have the same eye I guess. When I read the game I thought your approach was good. You do have that style that could be dangerous as scum in my opinion, but for now I am satisfied with your posting. Lately a few people have been saying you are scummy. I don't see it and want them to be more specific.

[Sotty7]

An impasse sounds about right for now.

[Sotty7]

Ugh.

Unvote, Vote: TMJ

[Sotty7]

Ugh is because I do not like this Pops lynch. Also because we have a split town almost and I don't like the idea of me having to hammer Pops

just

to get a lynch today.

I would say TMJ is a good lynch. Better than Pops anyhow.

[Sotty7]

Why not?

Because of the doc claim. Because he would be pinned to it all game and because there has been no counterclaim.

I thought I said as much, but I look back and hadn't spelled it out as such. Just said that I agreed with Porkens who pretty much said what I would have said here.

[Sotty7]

afatchic is a good place to put a vote right now. He needs to add more to this game that is for sure. However Cruciare said something similar about TMJ here, something I essentially agreed with when I came in. Are we also scummy to you as well? Or is afatchic's lurking on the deadline the added factor in your vote?

Vote: Vi

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off. Also TMJ quickly followed Vi with a vote on Y.C at the start of the game here. TMJ strikes me as the kind of scum that would make that kind of early newb mistake.

Really want to hear from Cruciare and for him to explain why he thought yesterdays TMJ lynch would offer little in the ways of information. I also want his opinion on the two wagons now that TMJ did flip scum.

Also, more from Jammer please.

[Sotty7]

Also TMJ quickly followed Vi with a vote on Y.C at the start of the game here. TMJ strikes me as the kind of scum that would make that kind of early newb mistake.

What kind of early newb mistake? (Specifically, does it have to be one that necessarily includes me as scum?)

Obvious following of the partner.

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc.

Did they?
But doesn't that seem odd to you?

Yes.
No.

Why do you think he was killed then if it wasn't because he claimed doc?

On a related note,

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off.

This is a

non sequitur

- the first sentence does not lead to the second; it actually weakens it. The second sentence is what you were saying yesterday, without the important part--

Basically, I think you believed the claim

while at the same time encouraged another player to keep their vote on Pops.

I'm sure this would have much more of a punch if my suspicions about the claim were not well-founded (and well-documented in 294).

It doesn't weaken anything. The scum had no idea that Pops would be the survivor, all they knew is that he wasn't a part of them. They killed him because of the docs ability to block their kills. I think if Pops had claimed something else the scum might have kept him alive for a WIFOM lynch. They didn't because they didn't want to risk having any future kills blocked. This is easily the most logical assessment of the kill as far as I am concerned.

I still think you believed the claim and worded your belief in away that allowed you easy passage back onto the Pops wagon if the rest of the town still wanted to lynch him.

While I'm here I'll answer two of my own questions (previously asked to Cruciare).

Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

1) Get the heck off the wagon.
2) Question the claim.

Fair enough. But right after he claimed, you didn't question it. That came later, after others had shown they were still willing to lynch Pops.

I think it's significant that midway through the day Cruciare tried to steer the lynch choice towards pops vs jammer rather than pops vs TMJ. (DRK is also somewhat guilty of that.) Later on, he softened his stance on pops to being based "more gut than logic" when pops looked likely to be lynched, while keeping his vote on pops. That seems like an attempt to position himself better for when pops flipped town. Also, several times he ducked giving his opinion on something or gave vagueish answers.

Can you show your working?

Really want to hear from Cruciare and for him to explain why he thought yesterdays TMJ lynch would offer little in the ways of information. I also want his opinion on the two wagons now that TMJ did flip scum.

TMJ was like a near-complete shot in the dark. You're welcome to convince yourself that I'm wrong on this, but that's what I firmly believed D1. Had we lynched Pops, I believed that regardless of whether he came up scum or doctor (I didn't consider third-party to be honest) we would've learnt a lot from it either way. TMJ's lynch would only prove useful if he flipped scum, which fortunately he did. Had TMJ flipped anything other than scum, it would've told us virtually nothing. A TMJ town/third-party flip would also have given the scum a chance to WIFOM with not killing Pops. Like I said, the fact that TMJ actually did flip scum was a lucky shot in the dark in my opinion.

This still doesn't work for me. Yesterday you believed that Pops was scum and yet others were jumping onto a different wagon. If you truly believed Pops to be scum, wouldn't the competing wagon and those on it show you something? Lets pretend for a minute that Pops was scum and TMJ was town. After the TMJ flip are you really trying to tell me you would have had nothing to go on as far as Pops and his scum buddies?

As for the two wagons, if you're talking about the TMJ and Pops wagons yesterday, my opinion now is that there is not likely to be any scum on TMJ's wagon. I'll explain this further on in this post.

I agree somewhat with statement. I think because of TMJ's powerful role bussing is less likely. I don't want to say that there was no scum on the wagon, but I don't think there was many.

Now I want to Vote: DeathRowKitty. I know I said yesterday that he was one of the people I was not suspicious of at all (because a lot of his opinions mirrored mine), but with TMJ's scum flip, I now think otherwise. I'll make a better case on this (with all the specifics and all that - there are lots) when I'm less tired, but the general idea is that if you look at his play from the perspective that he is definitely scum, it makes perfect sense. And I mean PERFECT sense. For now, I'll just leave you with the fact that DRK's very first mention of TMJ was at the bottom of page 6, a full five days or 86 posts after initial suspicion on TMJ first came to light.

Interesting, I want to see the full case as soon as you can get round to it. my opinion on DRK is that he was tunneled and in my experience that happens more as town than as scum because scum need to keep their options open a little more. I want to hear his opinions on all this now the day has started. Right now I am leaning town because of the tunneling. But the appeal for a quick hammer on Pops sticks in my nose.

Porkens your question is answered up there. I had honestly forgot about DRK at the start of the day, that isn't a good thing. I want to hear what he has to say.

[Sotty7]

It's just my experience. I don't think it makes him obvtown by any means.

[Sotty7]

I agree that (almost) everyone on TMJ's wagon should be practically confirmed for the moment. I'm not sure anyone would have bussed near the end of the wagon (we can worry about that later on if necessary), but I wouldn't be too surprised if there was bussing early on when pops seemed the likely lynch.

Why do you think it's more likely to be this way round?

Who is your top suspect now? Why?

---

Obvious following of the partner.

I've never seen this happen with the first and second votes on a wagon.

Despite what TMJ may have said to the contrary, his play suggests to me that he would have no trouble just following his scum buddy. I realize this is a bit of a leap, but that's what I think.

Oh, I believe that he was killed because he claimed Doctor. But what's strange is that the scum didn't have any better targets, considering pops would have been just as useless and suspicious today and pops' protection was probably unlikely to land in the same place as the night-kill. (To answer the objection about a future protection on a Cop, as with a Framer a Cop is expected in this setup: Personally I'd take a shot at the Cop now; it's the difference between preventing follow-the-Cop starting Day 3 and preventing follow-the-Cop in the first place.)

There were plenty of better (READ: more pro town) targets over Pops, but Pops claimed doc. So unless the scum had a roleblocker, I was fully expecting him to die over night. The last thing scum want, especially after losing one of their members, is to have a night kill blocked. So they kill the claim doc to stop that from happening

Even

if

the scum had a roleblocker, there is a big case for killing Pops. With how him v TMJ went down yesterday, if Pops was alive today, there was no way I was going to vote for him WIFOM or not. In a game with such a short deadline I simply fail to believe that the scum would be so backwards in that two of their members would be the competing wagons of the day.

I can think of one or two people that the scum might have wanted to kill over Pops, but they had to kill him.

My change in opinion on you began when I realized that as the Doctor I would have protected you, and pops probably would not have done so (as I would have expected him to protect either himself or me or someone chosen by the dice tags), therefore I expected you to be NKd. Likewise there are a few people that I'm reading nicely pro-Town right now that would also have been acceptable targets.

What is your change of opinion on me? I wasn't aware of your original opinion. Are you saying I'm suspicious because I didn't die over night?

Who knows who hypodoc Pops would have protected. At one point he was offering protections in exchange for not voting him... The scum offed the claimed doc simply because they had to.

How powerful was it?

With enough scummy townies it can be pretty powerful. Pops would have been a perfect target for it last night for example.

I believe this is a similar situation. pops was an attractive kill on paper, but hardly ideal from the perspective of someone who isn't scum.

This statement makes no sense to me.

---

afatchic, suspects?

[Sotty7]

What is your change of opinion on me? I wasn't aware of your original opinion. Are you saying I'm suspicious because I didn't die over night?

More so, yes. There's a little more to it, but I'm not going to go onward with that now.

Yup I love my vote on Vi right now.

[Sotty7]

It's just that, a non connection. But I have noticed that DRK has ignored the couple of questions I tossed his way in the last page.

I agree that (almost) everyone on TMJ's wagon should be practically confirmed for the moment. I'm not sure anyone would have bussed near the end of the wagon (we can worry about that later on if necessary), but I wouldn't be too surprised if there was bussing early on when pops seemed the likely lynch.

Why do you think it's more likely to be this way round?

Who is your top suspect now? Why?

[Sotty7]

There is no evidence of another 3rd party right now (AKA an SK), so I think 2 scum. Pops was the survivor so doesn't that count as a 3rd party death Sigma?

[Sotty7]

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

But doesn't 2 mafia and a survivor means two correct lynches and the town wins? That doesn't seem incredibility balanced to me either. That said, set up design isn't my strong point combined with TMJ talking about the remaining player, maybe Vi is on to something.

But....Vi has been the one to bring up the number of scum in the game over anyone else. Her survey at the start of the game had that question. If she was scum with just TMJ as her partner then slipping that question into the survey could be her way to feel out what else is out there if someone answers something other than 3.

That could be just extreme paranoia talking though and if we are just going to look at who was on the Pops wagon come end of day then my list would look like this:

Cruciare
DeathRowKitty
afatchic
imaginality

The TMJ flip makes me reverse my position on Cruciare. I can't shake that his last post of day one was a desperate scum plea to save his buddy. DRK has done nothing but tunnel, he needs to start looking at the game with a broader view. His request of a Pops quick lynch is scummy. afatchic and imaginality are on the same plane here really. I don't remember afatchic doing much scum hunting, certainly not today at least. And I want to see imaginality's case on Cruciare

I will have to do a little bit of reading back to refresh my memory of what happened as well. That will probably have to wait until tomorrow for me to find the time.

My promised award-winning case on DRK will have to disappear into back drawer of my mind for a while, but seriously, upon TMJ's flip, DRK's D1 play became textbook scum.

Why does it have to disappear?

[Sotty7]

I think you are, but your last few posts feel more protown to me.

Good point about Mountainous.

[Sotty7]

Why does it have to disappear?

Mainly because I've found that I just don't have the effort to write a wall of critical analysis. I've already mentioned the key points in one post or another, and the details will surface in bits should the need for me to regurgitate them arise. Since you seem very eager about this case of mine on DRK however, I'll comply to an extent and take this little by little. Firstly, I'd like to clarify if you can see a hint of logic in my words when I claim that DRK's D1 behaviour matches scum almost perfectly. I mean look at his D1 play from the perspective that you have a hypothetical guilty investigation result on him, and tell me how much sense it makes to you. (By the way, this is how my line of thinking generally goes after D1: look at people's earlier play from the perspective that they are 100% scum and evaluate which ones make the most sense.)

I am very eager to hear your case on DRK. I am finding it extremely telling that you are now backing away from presenting one simply by saying “it's already out there.” You have promised this case several times and now you have said it has to disappear. It's one thing to be busy, it's quite another to disappear a case on someone you strongly believe to be scum.

Now you want me to look at day one as if I know DRK is scum... Isn't that a little backwards? Plus didn't you say that DRK opinions mirrored a lot of your own on day one? Does that mean your play is also scummy by your own admission?

Anyway, as much as my behaviour today so far suggests that I'm tunnelling on DRK, Afatchic is my second top suspect so I'm very eager to hear from his hopefully-more-useful replacement. Imaginality I'm not so sure about. I initially thought Vi's case on him was a stretch, but the more I look at his D1 posts, the scummier they become (but that could be my paranoia talking). DRK's D2 posts have sat somewhat better with my scumdar, so I may review my stance on DRK (and reread everyone's D1 posts once again) if Afatchic's replacement or Imaginality say some funny things today.

So if we're lynching off the TMJ wagon today you simply are ready to vote for anyone that isn't you? Good to know.

Actually, can someone do recap of Cruciare's scummy actions? Because, I see that many people are listing him at the top of the suspect list, but except from voting for Pops on D1, I don't see anything that guilty in his actions...

Hello me from yesterday.

It's his words more than his actions for me. The “DRK is scum guys!” but not making a case is a glaring one. He has jumped up to my number two suspect today.

[Sotty7]

I can agree with you on DRK.

[Sotty7]

My read is largely up in the air now, my suspicions of DRK weren't as strong as they were on the start if D2. People who aren't Porkens, Vi, Sigma, Col and Sotty need to talk more. Myself included technically, but I don't have much I feel I need to talk about until DRK/Imaginality/Ojanen say stuff. Or unless Sotty keeps me 'entertained', of course.

I'll take that back handed insult and raise you a

We just don't agree. What I am finding funny is that yesterday I found you townie while others didn't and today that position has flipped. Maybe my scumdar needs recalibration when it comes to you. Time will tell I suppose.

Ojanen, is jammer your top suspect?

I don't support this imaginality wagon.

[Sotty7]

Yes

[Sotty7]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

[Sotty7]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

Well how about you elaborate on your suspicions? Simply counting down the days isn't helpful to anyone.

[Sotty7]

Yes, but what have you done lately?

You have alluded to some suspicion of me, I have no idea why. Porkens I have a slightly better idea as to why, still not great. And your imaginality case amounts to "what I said yesterday."

It's not good enough.

You can't sit there and point fingers at everyone for stalling when I look at your posts and don't really see you pushing us anywhere. Almost as if you are content to sit back and count down the days. AKA, posting and pretending you are playing when really there is no substance.

[Sotty7]

Is re-reading.

[Sotty7]

Wait, didn't DRK unvote Pops after he claimed and then never vote him again? Are you really trying to say that when he was pushing Pops he should have known he was the doc?

[Sotty7]

Okay I see he deadline voted him (how could I forget that?) and spent most of the time when his vote was off him talking about he was going to vote him. I retract my previous post.

[Sotty7]

My brain took a short vacation. Hopefully it is back with me now

[Sotty7]

Okay...

Unvote

I am willing to put my feelings on Vi on the back burner for now. Mostly because my ISO read of her kinda showed her answers in a better light than I first viewed them. Still not liking her suspicions of me, but I will deal with that for now.

I also re-read imaginality and can see where the wagon is coming from, still I don't think I will be voting for him today. Need to do more reading to decide where my vote is going to go. Right now I am thinking either Cruciare or maybe even Ojanen.

[Sotty7]

Little suspicions: Jammer/Charter (I can't deny that Jammer did several weird things, on the other hand his play is entirely different from Jammer-Scum I know

What's the difference?

I know this sounds weird in mouth of someone who is the main supporter of DRK lynch, but this is serious scum alarm in my head. Mainly because after going after Cruciare he magically votes somewhere else, when it's visible, that lynching Cruciare doesn't seem to be an option anymore, and it's coincidentally landing at other possible lynch target besides him.

This is a good point.

See bolded sentence. I really think one of me, Cruciare or DRK should die today.

Why do you think you should die today?

@anyone who has a "gut town read" on me or something similar
Why?

I think I explained mine already. Has to do with your extreme tunneling on Pops.

@Cruciare post 488: Honestly, I have no idea how many scum there is left in this game. Vi makes a good point about the possibility of having only two, but I don't trust her enough to commit myself that way. Right now I am of the belief that we should just lynch the scummiest player and worry about the set up later when we get closer to end game. We could theorize all game about the set up but in the end we have to lynch someone. I'm going to vote based off my suspicions, not set up speculation.

Vi looks ridiculously scummy, with the constant pops lynch attempts, then essentially being forced to hammer to prevent a no lynch.

I am pretty sure it is Vi and Cruciare.

Sorry for not doing my usual chronological highlight of scummy posts. I'll be back with my reasons for this in a sec.

Glad I'm not insane.

Ojanen's play since he has replaced in has been obvTown.

ACCEPT IT

Why don't you think so?

My issue with Ojanen is she spent time doing an PBPA of Jammer when he wasn't her top suspect, it felt like a distraction. But I will say her reasoning on imaginality is pretty good/townie like.

[Sotty7]

I do have to ask...

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

What changed in this time? You were quick to dismiss CC picking up on TMJ talking about the remaining "player". However, according to post 395, you believed since Pops flip that there was only two scum.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, can you please confirm that in our night chat, DRK, Cru and Vi were the players I expressed suspicion of, while I viewed the rest of you as more likely town?

This is a true story.

My suspicion of Sotty started D2 when she began tunneling on me. With the knowledge of a Framer, I expected there to be a Cop in the setup. I knew she was not a Cop because she was going after

moi

and the Framer never got a chance to target me. That left scum.
Obviously I couldn't say as much inthread, because if I was

wrong

(which

never

happens ) I would be outing a power role, so when my first attempt to pressure Sotty failed I simply fell back.

I will say that the part of my game that really needs improvement is knowing when to let a case go after I build it. Having been screwed over so many times I have become hard headed were that is concerned.

In addition, my philosophy on Neighbors is and has been for a while now that it functions as a directed one-shot Cop investigation. Given that Sotty is not willing to vote imaginality and vice versa, I am trusting in your mutual competence to say you both believe you are Town, and are probably right about each other.

I was worried about imaginality as we went into night. I thought that he could be a SK because of his worry surrounding the mafia docs. To me it doesn't make much sense for a scum team member to speculate about mafia docs, other killing roles would be worried about that however.

I managed to make imaginality list his suspects and reasons for them first and he pretty much took the words out of my mouth on everyone. After that I felt better about him because we seemed to agree.

From what Vi's saying, oppositely-aligned neighbors aren't that common? (Can someone confirm or deny this?)

@Sotty
How sure are you of imaginality's pro-town alignment?

To the first part, I don't have much experience with the neighbor role. In this game there were a couple of neighbors and they all turned out to be town aligned. So take from that what you will.

To the second part, I am not 100% convinced he is town, but like I said, he pretty much took the words out of my mouth in our quick topic. I don't think he should be lynched today.

Also, upon further thought, I'm not so sure that acronym I posted earlier provides a valid reason for not voting Cruciare (I'm still not saying what that reason was), but I'd still prefer not to vote him.

Why not?

[Sotty7]

I'm guessing you missed this with all the neighbor drama.

I do have to ask...

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

What changed in this time? You were quick to dismiss CC picking up on TMJ talking about the remaining "player". However, according to post 395, you believed since Pops flip that there was only two scum.

Vote: Cruciare

The set up speculation post does it for me. Almost like damage control before imaginality even flips. I'm happy enough to join charter here.

[Sotty7]

DRK isn't the lynch today.

[Sotty7]

Hrmm... The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch, but I see charter's point about name claim now. Not good. Yet post 543 is more of the role PM but without the true name (at least the one in my PM) Then Sigma posts and says another name that is different to mine.

DRK is not the lynch people. He may very well be the Mod kill, but I don't think he is the lynch.

[Sotty7]

Sigma, there is no townie PM in the first post, how do you think he got all that information if he didn't have the actual PM?

[Sotty7]

I also don't think he is scum and have said as much before the claim.

[Sotty7]

Competent mods don't let games get screwed up by PM-quoting.

Very true. We just disagree on DRK then.

[Sotty7]

I also don't think he is scum and have said as much before the claim.

Why'd you say this then?

The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch

That's what I was responding to.

The second quote of me came right after DRK made his claim in my eyes just enforced that he wasn't scum. However, your point about competent mods rings true. I have never played under Red before, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of Mod that would make a mistake like this as far as the role PMs go.

So my confidence in DRK not being scum has been downgraded again, but I still think he is likely town

[Sotty7]

Can't resist posting this mod WIFOM though:
I think there's a reason why vanilla pm isn't quoted in first post. (different rolenames)

Looks that way.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Vi

I agree with charter about 541.

I will echo Porkens in wanting to hear from CC today. I am also interested in who Sigma finds scummy now.

[Sotty7]

Sotty, what did you and imaginality talk about last Night?

About the mod kill who we found scummy. You know the fun stuff.

Third - Ojanen got killed. IMO that's extremely surprising. I was pretty sure, either Cruciare or Charter will be the victim, but anyway, thank you scum for making my job easier.

I agree, I was suspicious of Ojanen so that takes away a distraction. Looking back I'm guessing the scum were taking a power role shot after her comment about vanilla claiming and what have you.

vote: Vi

How's that for an insight?

Yummy. I like it.

Two things I forgot to do in the last post.

Cruciare and I are neighbors.

I have a gut town-read on Cruciare.

Vote: imaginality

Wha...? Okay, that makes me wonder a little more about my gut on imaginality.

[after the Cop claim]

...and once again that changes things. I thought sigma was the Cop tbh.

So did I.

Cruciare's alignment has not been mod-confirmed to me. This is also the case for all of the other neighbors, is it not?

Yes.

Porkens reaction to DRK initial claim had him firmly on my town list as it is. Happy to believe the innocent result. CC, why did you investigate him and DRK?

I agree charter is town and Sigma trying to dismiss that is bugging me. Two sets of neighbors in a mini? This makes my gut crawl a little.

[Sotty7]

And btw: Why didn't any of you Counterclaimed Imaginality's, immediately after he claimed?

This is a good question

[Sotty7]

Why I didn't counterclaim imaginality: Didn't have time to post last weekend. Cruciare said he would have claimed if I had posted last weekend. Whenever Cruciare checks in, he can confirm his side.

This is extremely lame. You were posting after the claim, why didn't you counterclaim ASAP?

I think charter is unconfirmed and Sotty trying to dismiss that is bugging me. (See what I did there?)

No one is saying charter is confirmed, a bunch of us just happen to think he is townie. There is nothing a scum hates more is townies thinking other townies are town. Add this with your almost desperate plea that DRK be mod killed and your town status has been downgraded slightly in my eyes.

@Sotty the 7th: What do you think of my reason for believing sigma?

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

I'm with you here. This is the reason I think Sigma is more likely town than scum. However, his latest posts/actions make me wonder.

Lets be clear, my top three suspects over night were: Vi, Cruciare and Ojanen with an extreme outside chance of Sigma being scum, imaginality can confirm this is.

So with Ojanen dead that leaves me with you and Cruciare.

Sotty, could you please explain your vote on me?

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints. The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

That said I'm starting to think that I might want to lynch Cruciare first.

[Sotty7]

How is Cruciare's play text book doc play? What do you think of the neighbor claim now?

[Sotty7]

Yeah imaginality also asked Red the same question back on night one. I have no issue with it personally. How would you purpose we go about posting ALL the night talk? I don't know about you two but we have a couple of pages of stuff and it would take a while to stick them all in quotes and what have you.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

[Sotty7]

I don't think that you believe your own reasons for voting me.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

...and this political justification for my lynch just bolsters that.

This is just BS.

I believe my reasons for voting you, we just have the neighbors pointing fingers a little at each other. I don't see why Cruciare is voting for imaginality over you.

[Sotty7]

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints.

I'm not the Cop. However, I (thought I) deduced three things that I didn't want to pull out unless I thought it would go somewhere.
*Sotty7 is a power role, or scum.
*sigma is most likely the Cop.
*Cruciare is almost certainly the Doctor.
This is why I've been on Cruciare's side the whole time - his play is textbook Doc play. And that's also why I think the scum can't be that experienced for not offing him considering that there have been a few people (DRK and myself, OTH) who were pretty explicit that they had veiled reasons for wanting him alive.

Okay, I asked you about the doc/neighbour claim. It's one thing if your thought Cruciare was the real doc, now it's come out that he wasn't, what do you think about his constant doubting of the doc claim now? How is this tangential?

The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

You don't think that the point about the name of the Vanilla role held

any

merit? I must disagree, and surely you would not as well--

Hrmm... The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch, but I see charter's point about name claim now. Not good.

Yet post 543 is more of the role PM but without the true name (at least the one in my PM) Then Sigma posts and says another name that is different to mine.

Incidentally, sigma (apparently?) didn't know the name of the V. Townie role in this game either... which paired with his claim makes sense.

At this point I was under the impression that Red had given all the townies different names for townies. Sigma said Villager, DRK said townie, neither of which I have in my PM. I don't get your argument. At the time I thought it was a lead, it was proven later that was wrong. I just went back to my gut read of DRK tunnel as townie play.

However you just no sold everything to do with DRK's claim like you knew the townie PM wasn't helpful. Other players reacted like I did, even if we all came to differing opinions. You just ignored it. THAT'S my point.

[Sotty7]

Knock yourself out.

[Sotty7]

Sotty noticing me hanging out in Little Italy right before D2 made me I was watching both this game and the other one, I believe -- I can be obsessive about this game sometimes...

I hear that.

Me and Sigma were like in completely different time zones or something, so we didn't have as many talks. Did you guys have a QuickTopic? We talked through PM. =/

Yeah, we had a quick topic. imaginality made it, good move on his part

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up. It would be nice to get Porkens in here with some detailed thoughts.

Reading the neighbor talk makes me feel better about Cruciare.

[Sotty7]

Pretty much what Vi said. Could have been a bluff however, we won't know till after the game or her flip. Depending on what comes first.

[Sotty7]

I really don't want to lynch imaginality today. I think he is town, considering that he called CC as a power role in our night talk the night before he claimed cop is a big thing for me.

However I realize I am in the strong minority here so there is little I can do. I think we should be no lynching today. If we aren't then I will be voting Sigma.

[Sotty7]

Right now I think there is only one scum.

Vote: No lynch

Cruciare, why are you asking about charter?

[Sotty7]

I don't think charter is scum

[Sotty7]

Did anyone even read what I posted about imaginality/Cruciare? If you could and post if you agree/disagree and why, that would be awesome.

I see the thinking you are using and for the most part I agree. However I just can't shake the feeling I got from imaginality in our QT and the fact he called CC out as a power role before he claimed. I would have thought he would have kept that to himself and just killed him instead.

I will say that I keep flipping back and forth on Cruciare. His weak accusations on you today aren't doing him any favors.

[Sotty7]

That hurts.

Charter had me fooled but I was onto Sigma. Dang

[Sotty7]

I really enjoyed this game. Red you were a great mod and the flavor was very funny. I would probably say the townie PM mix up was the biggest stumbling block but I think you have learned from that.

The player list was also grade A in my book. Made this game a lot of fun. I do feel bad about lynching Vi.... I was so sure you were scum