Mini 758 - Normalcy (GAME OVER)

[EmpTyger]

Random

vote: Juls

[EmpTyger]

Juls:
Do I know you?

[EmpTyger]

Juls:
Good point.

Unvote: Juls

---

Spyre:

Ben, assume it to be proportional to a degree. In 12, 3 or 4 (or 1 more or less depending on the amount of power roles, etc) is a safe assumption.
<snip>

It’s typically 2-3, sometimes with an additional SK. Where have you seen a mini with 5 antitowns?

---

Plum:
I feel you might appreciate CI378.

[EmpTyger]

Lowell:
Why KoC?

---

Spyre:

<snip>
Especially when, really, all we have is a very weak suspicion on me.
<snip>

Why do you say this?

[EmpTyger]

Lowell:

Nah, just making a note of it for now. When I have a more complete take on things I'll share, I promise.

Why isn’t it worth sharing now? What’s this “more complete take on things” you’re waiting for?

---

Plum:
Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Scum

[EmpTyger]

Lowell posted elsewhere but not here.

Vote: Lowell

---

Caboose:
I happened to like Spyre's focus, at least until the from me/on me slip.

[EmpTyger]

Spyre:

<snip>
Now, you and everyone are making the assumption that #2 means KoC is

gaining

scumpoints.

No, I’ve asked Lowell to explain himself, and he’s avoiding giving an explanation, first with a non-answer, then by lurking.

But in any case- Lowell’s initial comment certainly made that implication about KoC. Are you saying that Lowell making a vague comment which could mean 2 opposite things- and then not clarifying when asked- is a sign of innocence?

<snip>
Thats 5, right there without Caboose that have expressed in some fashion questioning/negative attributes to Lowells question. Add in Caboose and you're sitting at a potential L-1.

What on earth are you implying here? How on earth does that implicate Caboose in any way?

1) Asking a player questions is not the same as considering them suspicious.
2) Pointing out suspicions is not the same as casting a vote.
3) Pointing out genuinely suspicious behavior is not suspicious in itself.
4) We’re 6 days from deadline. Having half the town head towards a consensus- without any immediate danger of a speedlynch or anything negative- is not only not bad, but *necessary*.

(Yes, this is under the assumption that suspicions become votes - EmpTyger's already did).
<snip>

Clarification: I’m voting Lowell because at this point he’s lurking instead of explaining himself. There may or may not have been an innocent explanation for the comment he initially made. But coupled with his lurking in this situation...

---

KoC:

I should make it clear my post was meant in jest. Although I concur with SpyreX - the sudden wealth of anti-Lowell feeling certainly makes me wonder if this is an attempt to get a quick wagon going, whilst buddying up to me to create tomorrow's scapegoat.

Who specifically do you suspect of this?

[EmpTyger]

dejkha, Kieraen, and Lowell have been posting elsewhere while lurking here.

I retract the good feeling I had of Spyre. The attack on Caboose is 100% nonsense.

---

Spyre:

<snip>
1.) Of course not, but if you're trying to tell me all of the statements above do not show suspicion then we're at an impasse. It is easy to imply negative or positive connotations with a question.

Um, most weren’t statements. They were *questions*. Which is why it doesn’t end there. Because then players *response* to those questions (or implicate themselves by deliberately not responding), and the asker reevaluates.
Otherwise you’re saying that players have to immediately decide who is and isn’t suspicious without getting further information, which is ridiculous.

2.) No, but it is

related

to a vote. Normally there is a relation to suspicion and the casting of a vote. Sometimes in the same post, sometime pages away - but, in general, if a "real" vote is placed without grounding in suspicion that vote itself is, by nature, suspicious.

No, there’s a huge difference between statements of suspicion and votes. You’re implying that it’s bad for Caboose to be the n-1th player to suspect Lowell. There’s certainly a danger of a player being *voted* to lynch-1: they might be speedlynched. But if n-1 players express suspicion- what’s the danger? There’s still opportunity to discuss, players still have to decide whether to vote or not.

And, it’s not even true by your logic. Caboose asked Lowell- which to you is the same as suspecting- in [43], which makes him the *second*, not the sixth to do so. Your logic should have implicated RBT, who was the n-1th, in [58].

3.) Of course it isn't. Now, the whole argument of "genuinely suspicious" being for the most part subjective aside - my problem isn't with suspicion of Lowell for this: to a degree it is warranted. It is with Caboose, specifically.
4.) Again, of course it is necessary. That doesn't alter the dissonance I see with 36 and 59 and, that in and of itself, raises enough suspicion that I placed a vote.
<snip>

What dissonance?
Caboose’s statement on KoC was directly in response to what Lowell was saying differently.
Lowell’s statement about KoC is still unprompted, unexplained, and without basis, other than some nebulous “I’ll share someday” which raises even more questions.

And, especially in light of Lowell’s failure to clarify, I feel that there are 2 reasonable interpretations of his original [36]: that Lowell is accusing KoC of being guilty, or Lowell is deliberately trying to be ambiguous. Both of which, in context, implicate Lowell. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from the context of the thread that the best or only interpretation is that Lowell is making a null statement about KoC.

---

Juls:

<snip>
Question: Is EmpTyger another alt for Empking?
<snip>

I have over 3 years seniority on Empking; *he*’d be an alt for *me*.
(But, no. We are not related.)

[EmpTyger]

Spyre:

<snip>
So, lets put on our scum-hat for a minute. You have a player who has received an implied level of suspicion from multiple players (including yourself). Does it make sense to attempt a wagon? Of course.

Now let’s take off our scum-hat and put on our town-hat for another minute. You have a player who has received an implied level of suspicion from multiple players (including yourself)

and he’s not responding to players’ questions and there’s a deadline within a week

. Does it make sense to attempt a wagon? Of course.

…but even so, that’s *still* not what Caboose did! Because no matter how many times you say it, he did *not* attempt a wagon. What he did was ask questions (*before* most of the “sea of faces” you claim he was following) and when Lowell ducked answering it, he declared it [correctly] suspicious.

So all you have is this contextless “dissonance”. Which is, in essence, no different from this absurdity:

Player X: <false premise>, therefore Vote: <someone>
Player Y: That makes no sense and your reasoning is faulty, therefore Vote: X
Spyre: Y is voting someone for a reason, yet they’re attacking X because they voted for someone for a reason! Therefore Vote: Y.

So even temporarily accepting your interpretation of Lowell’s initial comment- which I don’t- it’s not

Blue: Player does not gain town points.
Green: Player does not deserve town points.

but rather
Blue: Player does not gain town points,

for no particular reason at all.

Green: Player does not deserve town points,

despite what others are saying.

You really have Lowell to thank for why I’m not voting you.

---

RBT:

So far I like Spyre. Not a fan of the Lowell/KoC thing.

Care to elaborate on what you like about him and why you're "not a fan of the Lowell/KoC thing"?
<snip>

And your reply is

Personally, nothing against dej right now.

So, you want to *actually* answer that question?

Don't like the last post by Caboose.

VOTE:Caboose

Why not?

---

Atronach:

<snip>
the two posts accomplish the same thing: pre-emptive cases.
<snip>

How was Caboose’s post any different from your [47]?

[EmpTyger]

I have some technical difficulties irl. They should be cleared up in 48 hours; in the event they are not, I will still be able to at least briefly get online to update my situation and request replacement if necessary.

Very happy to leave my vote on Lowell in the meantime. I think I disagree with every single thing he’s said (well, except that I don’t think he’s a mason or miller)

---

Plum:
…Including, I do *not* like your [105]. 4 days from deadline, you do a bunch of analysis, and then all of a sudden vote RBT? Because he “didn't respond” and “barely posted, and nothing of substance”. Well, Lowell’s all that worse, and you had found other reasons to suspect him too, and he’s at 2 votes and has others suspecting him. Instead, you vote RBT, who no one else is even voting, and I doubt a bandwagon will follow you when you spend most of [105] attacking Spyre, not RBT.

[EmpTyger]

I wouldn’t mind following up KoC’s harmless FoS with actual votes, except that my reasons for voting Lowell yesterday are still just as valid today. Added to which are his last second reversal to lynch an innocent.

---

Caboose:

Hey everybody.

I'm a one shot cop.

Plum is town.

That is all.

“That’s all”? Declaring someone innocent doesn’t find guilties. Atronach is right- you do seem far too eager to quickly establish your innocence, without any interest whatsoever in actually finding mafia.

<snip>

One shot power doesn't make you town.

Yes, it does.
<snip>

No, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. And I really don’t like that you are insisting that it does.

---

The "Your mod is moving to Arkansas" Votecount

<none!>

Not Voting:

Riceballtail, Atronach, EmpyTyger, Caboose, Benmage, Lowell, Plum, Kieraen, Knight of Cydonia, dejkha[/b][/color]

6 to lynch

[EmpTyger]

Actually, yeah,

vote: Lowell

[EmpTyger]

I don’t think I’m giving anything away at this point if I state that I would not be surprised if all powerroles in this game are one-shot. Which is why I’m really bothered by the preemptive insistence by Caboose and the expectation of Lowell that their claims exonerate them.

---

Caboose:
I really don’t like how you are responding to questions without answering what’s being asked.

FoS: Caboose

because... why? Why reveal that now? Now the scum know they have 1 less person to pick from when hunting power roles. Plus, claiming a one-shot power is pointless, because we have no way to verify it - you can't exactly do it again and hope for a watcher/tracker. Pointless, unverifyable claim For The Lose.

Because I might get lynched today or NKed tonight, and then the info that Plum is confirmed town is lost.
<snip>

KoC wasn’t asking why you claimed an innocent on Plum. He was asking why you claimed the 1-shot detail. Which I still want to know.

“That’s all”? Declaring someone innocent doesn’t find guilties. Atronach is right- you do seem far too eager to quickly establish your innocence, without any interest whatsoever in actually finding mafia.

Of course I'm eager to establish my innocence.
And if I had no interest in finding mafia, I wouldn't have even bothered to tell you guys my investigation results.

Establishing your innocence doesn’t find mafia. Simply establishing your innocent only wins if you’re mafia, because mafia simply need to avoid being killed. If you’re town, you need to also figure out who is guilty. And you’re weren’t.

<snip>
I think Lowell's roleclaim is true

Why? Because I don’t. It has a huge hole of convenient (and imho implausible) amnesia. It does nothing to address the reasons why he was originally voted. And even if it is, it says nothing about his alignment.

So if it’s because it has the words “1-shot” in it make it plausible- then you must believe that there’s a significant number of 1-shot roles. In which case, why wouldn’t you think that the mafia would also be aware of this fact?

<snip>
Your supporting a lynch based on just a roleclaim troubles me.

Your opposing a lynch based on just a roleclaim troubles me.

Less sarcastically, though: there are lots of reasons to support a Lowell lynch beyond “just roleclaim”. Which you have avoided commenting on, particularly at the point when I was pointing out how you weren’t trying to find mafia.

---

Kieraen:
Why are you dismissing the cases where Caboose/Lowell are of different alignments?

---

Benmage:

<snip>

spyrex gets townpoints. KoC does not. Carry on.

This stuff is always lame in my opinion…but is from my experience generally a townies move.
<snip>

<snip>

Vote Lowell

Her posts are absolutely useless. Nothing of real substance. One to two lines.
<snip>

What took you from “generally townie” to voteworthy?

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:
Please answer my question to you in [182].

It doesn't seem like a mafia advantageous thing to do. (Even if mafia had a one-shot investigative move)

You can’t see any advantage to mafia if a mafia fakeclaims cop?

---

Kieraen:

<snip>
I'm liking the sound of my gambit (and the sound of my own voice). I'm going to role with this one and

unvote, vote Caboose

Also if we have a doc, he can play 50 50 on protecting Lowell or Plum. Keep the mafia guessing. Hopefully mafia and doc pick same and both will be alive for us to continue our investigations tomorrow (assuming neither is mafia).

If you think Caboose is mafia, then why do you think the doctor should be considering protecting Plum?

---

Caboose:
I *really* don’t like how you are responding to questions without answering what’s being asked.

KoC wasn’t asking why you claimed an innocent on Plum. He was asking why you claimed the 1-shot detail. Which I still want to know.

Because leaving out that detail would be lying. Not sure why I wouldn't claim that detail as it's pretty important.
<snip>

Not my question. Why did you claim at all?
(And, explain why that detail is so important to claim. Because to me, either the mafia don’t know about its significance detail, in which case why would you want to blurt it out. Or the mafia do know about it, in which case it means nothing. Except that you are reallyreally eager to be the first to claim and reallyreally insistent that it makes you innocent.)

I don't understand this. Do I need to be "figuring out who is guilty" in

every

post? My first post was a quick post just for everyone's info.

Please tell me the name of one person who has "found mafia" today so far.

The point isn’t finding mafia. It’s *trying* to find mafia, versus simply trying not be lynched.

Roleclaiming and clearing someone else isn't a scumtell. Also, defending yourself isn't a scumtell either.
<snip>

You’re not being accused of defending yourself, but of defending yourself when you weren’t being attacked.
Why not, instead of blithely declaring that your behavior is not a scumtell, you say what might be a scumtell in others’ behavior?

<snip>
Where's the huge hole? I must be missing it.

Um, the conveniently unused ability last night? Which conveniently requires a presumably 1-shot doctor to use up their ability tonight?

And this doesn't have anything to do with it being one-shot.

This is ridiculous and I’m *this* close to switching my vote to you. Considering how aghast and high-minded you got about oh-I-*had*-to-claim-cop-and-not-only-that-1-shot-cop-because-anything-less-than-that-would-be-a-lie when you declared Plum innocent, why are you being so incomplete and so dodgy in refusing to provide reasoning when you declare Lowell innocent?

---

dejkha:
For the second day in a row, you are being awfully non-contributive…

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:
For the third time:

<snip>

spyrex gets townpoints. KoC does not. Carry on.

This stuff is always lame in my opinion…but is from my experience generally a townies move.
<snip>

<snip>

Vote Lowell

Her posts are absolutely useless. Nothing of real substance. One to two lines.
<snip>

What took you from “generally townie” to voteworthy?

---

Caboose:

<snip>
Roleclaiming and clearing someone else isn't a scumtell. Also, defending yourself isn't a scumtell either.
<snip>

You’re not being accused of defending yourself, but of defending yourself when you weren’t being attacked.
Why not, instead of blithely declaring that your behavior is not a scumtell, you say what might be a scumtell in others’ behavior?

Because it's not.

Not trying to find mafia is 100% a scumtell.

Also, I would like you to stop saying "you're not answering the question" when I clearly did. It's annoying and slightly scummy because you're saying somethings that's just not true.

Talk about saying something not true…

Where’s your clear answer to

Why do you think Lowell is innocent?

Where’s your clear answer to

Who do you think is mafia?

(Yes, I know, last time I accused you of this you in [180] quickly tossed a vote onto Benmage, because of “parroted reasoning”. And yet the only justification you have for that vote is parroted reasoning. Otherwise you’ve ignored him, before and since. But otherwise since Spyre, you’ve just been defending yourself- from before you were even attacked.)

<snip>
Where's the huge hole? I must be missing it.

Um, the conveniently unused ability last night? Which conveniently requires a presumably 1-shot doctor to use up their ability tonight?

Who said a hypothetical doc was one-shot?

I hypothesized it.

---

Lowell:

You guys are dumb to blame caboose but not me.
<snip>

Name one person who is doing this?

Temporary

unvote: Lowell

, to consider [208] however.

[EmpTyger]

Let me state unambiguously that I don't believe Lowell, but there's no reason not to give the benefit of the doubt, when there's enough others to lynch in the meantime.

Vote: dejkha

. This lurking has gone on too much to be legitimate, and he's posting elsewhere on site.

[EmpTyger]

Sorry, all- in the Fiscal Year-themed mafia game I’m playing irl, up against a deadline and that’s taking priority for me. Things will be better tomorrow. I did a reread of D2, but I’m way too tired to compose thoughts tonight. I still really think dejkha needs to die, and I don’t understand why I seem to be the only one to realize that he’s in this game, but deadline coming up, so

Unvote: dejkha

.

[EmpTyger]

First of all, in case I’m not around: Lynch Lowell tomorrow.

After Caboose’s revelation at the start of D2, everyone reacts in some way to it- except for 2 players:
dejkha “forgets about the game” and then comes up with a very confused reading of Caboose’s claim.
Kieraen ignores it, until a couple days later when he somehow decides that Lowell and Caboose are either both guilty or both innocent.

If it comes to it in 24 hours, I’ll vote Kieraen over RBT (I also really don’t like this press for RBT to claim) but honestly I don’t like it. I find Lowell, Caboose, and dejkha easily more suspicious.

---

dejkha:

@Emp: Is that because you think I haven't posted? Because I was prodded and post 219 is mine and if there's something you don't like about it, then at least explain.

No. And just because you’ve made 1 decent post, only after the mod posted inthread that he prodded you, doesn’t excuse your lurking through 2 days. I mean, here’s what you’ve done this game:

1) Random vote
2) Banter
3) Lurk here while being active elsewhere
4) Jump onto the Spyre bandwagon while attacking him (someone we now know is innocent)
5) Switch your vote to Lowell (for not contributing, <snort>) because deadline was approaching- despite Spyre being at 4 votes and Lowell only at 1.
6) Lurk here while being active elsewhere
7) Jump onto the Lowell bandwagon quietly.
8) Lurk here while being active elsewhere
9) Jump onto the Kieraen bandwagon, while attacking him.

---

Caboose:

I don't see the case on RBT.
<snip>

24 hours later- during which RBT didn’t post- you decide:

<snip>
RBT jump onto the Kieraen wagon troubles me.
RBT, why exactly did you vote Kieraen, again. I know you said it wasn't OMGUS, but if it isn't OMGUS, what is it?
And don't just say "what Plum said," either.

Oh, and,

Vote: RBT

RBT “jumped onto the Kieraen wagon” in [215], posted over 1 hour before you “didn’t see the case on him”.

<snip>
Where’s your clear answer to Why do you think Lowell is innocent?

His claim is believeable. Also, he hasn't done anything scummy since his day 1 crap attack.
<snip>

(:roll: Thanks, I so needed an unsolicited example of what begging the question was.)
Where’s your clear answer to Why is his claim believable?
The “he hasn't done anything scummy since his day 1 crap attack” is laughable- he hasn’t done *anything*. Except give a weak claim and say he “100% believes yours.

I hypothesized it.

So you're using this hypothesis to justify you saying that there's a "huge hole" in Lowell's claim? And I don't see how him not using his ability makes a "huge hole" either. I wasn't going to use my ability N1, either, until the ridiculous bandwagon built on me Day 1.

Wow, are you jumping through hoops to defend Lowell.
1) The huge hole is simply that Lowell “forgot” to use his ability N1. Nothing hypothesized. (My hypothesis just adds a too-convenient bonus for Lowell.)
2) You’re trying to say that you weren’t planning to use a 1-shot cop ability N1? Even Lowell isn’t going so far as to claim that it was optimal.

---

Benmage:

<snip>
Also, please don't get so hung up on semantics...'generally townie' is pretty arbitrary as it doesn't mean 100% so it really means zilch in the long run.

You said an action was protown when a player was getting mild suspicion but no votes early D1. But when a serious bandwagon and multiple votes come along D2, you turn around and say the same action is actually antitown. That’s not meaningless semantics. And anyway, just because something isn’t 100% certain doesn’t mean you get to wave it away as meaningless. Especially when it so happens one of the best way of finding mafia is by analyzing what players say and do.

So, try again. Clarify whether you think Lowell’s postings are or are not indicative of alignment. And while you’re at it, some more specific and nondisavowable reasons on others would be nice.

[EmpTyger]

I’m liking these bandwagons less and less and am worrying I gave up too quickly on dejkha. Can everyone to checkin with whether they will be online between now and deadline? Or at the very least, their opinion of dejkha independent of deadline. My last chance to vote will probably be 7 hours before deadline.

---

dejkha:

<snip>
So from the look of it, you're primarily suspicious on me for lurking? It was hard to tell since you listed thing I've "done this game" rather than what you're suspicious of.

“Except for my suspicious behavior, what have I done that’s suspicious…”?
I listed everything you’ve done because I find it entirely suspicious.

Lurking is antitown behavior

. It doesn’t help the town, especially with short deadlines. It’s inexcusable when you’re plenty active otherwise onsite. As Spyre pointed out:

<snip>
Lurking, therefore, should UNANIMOUSLY be condemned in this setup.

Of course, the mod is nice enough to eliminate the true lurkers - I am more worried about the lurkers that post that once or twice a day to avoid the above.

I am, right now and pre-emptively, calling all of those people scum. Come day 2 sans confirmed scum I want the contentless players eliminated.
<snip>

Is there anything wrong with attacking people? They were still allowed to defend themselves; Spyre did and Kieraen decided not to.

When you voted Spyre, you loudly argued against him. Whereas with Lowell, you just quietly slipped a vote on and ignored him otherwise. And Spyre we know now is innocent, and Lowell is the most suspicious player in the game by far.

You have only attacked players after someone else sticks out their neck to do so. You’re not trying to find mafia. You’re lurking, lying low, following others, blending in with the herd.

---

Benmage:

Lowell's posting, save the very beginning(RVS which is meaningless anyways but you're quite hung up on it)

I have seen new players get caught from their randomposts. I’ve seen good players get caught from their “randomvote” posts. I’ve caught mafia, and been caught as mafia, in those early posts.

I’m not saying that it’s 100% definite. But it’s not 100% meaningless. You’re trying very hard to disassociate yourself from your early defense of Lowell.

I can go back and go day to day for everyone.. but why are you asking me alone to do this?

You seemed to pick your reasons out of thin air, and too quick to say that they’re “meaningless” when I look closely. So I wanted *you* on record *today* with something that you wouldn’t be able to toss off as “meaningless” if I should perhaps maybe somehow accidentally not be around tomorrow to hold you to it.

I state this from the very original post that you quoted me from. If you would've finished reading you would have seen this. Furthermore the claim and forgetfulness has only strengthened my suspicions about Lowell's scumminess.

For the third time- I *did* read it, and I did see it! Which is why I asked you about it! Because that’s *not* what you said: what you actually said was that your initial “Lowell is protown” meant “zilch”. Which is very different from “accurate at the time”.

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:
You've said
1) Lowell is protown (because of reason A) [87]
2) Lowell is antitown (because of reason A) [172]
3) Lowell is antitown (because of reason B) [172]

You keep on repeating that (3) is a perfectly valid conclusion and how can I be so blind to not see it.

But I'm not and have never disputed that.

What I have had a problem with is that you reach the opposite conclusions of (1) and (2) based on the same basis. And when I asked you why, you first gave one explanation (that "generally protown" was meaningless), then another (that (1) was accurate at the time). While all the while trying to cover it up with an unrelated (3).

---

dejkha:

<snip>
With Lowell, he was hardly saying anything, and that coupled with him not keeping his promise makes it hard for me to say anything other than those two things when it came to him. All he did was making baseless statements for the most part.

So your defense for not attacking a suspicious player is that they weren't making it easy for you? Because mafia are trying to make it easy for you to attack them?

When Spyre made that large post right before he was lynch, I had the feeling he was town because if he wasn't he probably wouldn't have wasted his time. But I know that wouldn't, and shoudn't, matter to others and rightfully so.
<snip>

Wait, so you thought Spyre was innocent and just stayed quiet as he approached lynch?

[EmpTyger]

ugh

Atronach:
Even if there wasn't still time for his lynch to be viable, there was time for you to not avoid commenting on dejkha, so that maybe he wouldn't keep getting away with it.

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:
I'm sure you and I will have plenty of time to discuss plenty of things.

After Lowell posts.

[EmpTyger]

There are a couple very interesting topics of conversation that I look forward to returning to after Lowell.

[EmpTyger]

Kieraen:

At least we know Caboose is probably who he says he is now.

Why do you say that?

vote emptiger

HOS KoC

Both had the chance to gurantee a lynch yesterday. I find emptiger slightly more suspicious for his complete lack of vote, than KoC who at least had voted.

Interesting. That logic only holds if at least 1 of {Kieraen, RBT} are guilty. Since you presumably know that you yourself are innocent, why aren’t you voting RBT before attacking me and KoC? Because if {Kieraen, RBT} are both innocent, then how on earth is that a sign of guilt?

Unless, of course, *you*’re guilty, right?

<snip>
Players that are true vanilla townies must realise that if we get to l-1 it is well within good townie play to be lynched to secure a lynch.
<snip>

This is one of the most incorrect things I have ever read. A no-lynch is bad because it deprives the town of a chance of lynching mafia. That doesn’t make it automatically worse than every other option. Because, guess what. A townsperson self-lynching does even more to deprive the town of a chance of lynching mafia.

(Besides, according to your [incorrect] logic- then why didn’t you vote yourself? If someone’s guilty if they didn’t vote themself at lynch-1, then why not the person who didn’t vote themself at lynch-2?)

---

Lowell:
Why did you target Kieraen?
If you thought him innocent, he claimed vanilla.
If you thought him guilty, why didn’t you indicate any kind of willingness to lynch him yesterday

---

KoC:

Doesn't exactly prove he's town, though, does it? We still have 3 scum, so he may well just not have submitted the kill.

You seem awfully sure about this.

---

Atronach:
Repeating the last implied question from the end of D2:
What are your feelings about dejkha?

---

Benmage:
You were really quick to try to point the finger onto me and only me first thing in the morning. That wasn’t what you thought at the end of yesterday. What changed overnight?

[EmpTyger]

KoC:

How do I seem "awfully sure" EmpTyger? I'm saying he might not have submitted the kill. That's all.

Not what I’m asking. I’m asking why you seem so sure there are 3 mafia.

---

Lowell:

emp, I explained this. I didn't want to target my biggest suspect, because I figured it would be stopped somehow (either by me dying or him--RBT-- not making the kill).

Not what I’m asking. I’m asking why, if Kieraen was your second biggest suspect, why you didn’t indicate in any way this suspicion beforehand? In particular yesterday, when there were a RBT and a Kieraen bandwagons, you said a

---

Kieraen:

If a townie is constantly a lynch target then he may as well get out the limelight and be lynched.

RBT is not a lynch target just because you keep repeating it. RBT does not have to be inevitably lynched at some point. Therefore anyone who isn’t for it immediately isn’t suspicious, and the town isn’t wasting a day lynching him today instead of yesterday. I myself will not be voting RBT today just as much- in fact, moreso- than I wasn’t voting him yesterday.

At very least it gives the town one extra confirmed townie in which to anlysys his posts.

Show me where you did this or advised it should be done after Spyre’s mislynch.

What if for instance me and RBT are both townies?
<snip>

I’m thinking this case increasingly unlikely. But, to answer your question- then obviously we don’t want to lynch either of you! And instead of having players repeat that both of you must be lynched, we should be looking at who keeps insisting that both need to die and obsessively keeping the focus on you 2. Which, ironically, includes you.

Better I was lynched yesterday you see I'm townie and can see who's pushing the lynch.
<snip>

Um, don’t *you* already know you’re townie? (Temporarily assuming you’re innocent, of course.) Shouldn’t you at least then be able to figure out who was pushing your lynch? But instead, you’re trying to attack those who *didn’t* push your lynch!

<snip>
You are tunnelling, and I get the sincere feeling that you are tunnelling on a townie, in the role of a scummer.
<snip>

Um, you said this to KoC, who was tunneling on *you*. Why “get the sincere feeling”? (Again, with the same increasingly unlikely assumption.) Shouldn’t you *know* for certain whether KoC is “tunneling on a townie” or not, because you would know that you’re innocent?

[EmpTyger]

Kieraen:
You’re doing an astonishingly good job of arguing that I made a mistake in thinking you innocent yesterday.

---

Lowell:
Once more. If Kieraen was your second-highest suspect after RBT, why didn’t you say anything about this D2?

---

Atronach:

<snip>
However tonight, I will post some analysis on dejkha per request, and on Kieraen.

What happened to the Kieraen analysis?

---

dejkha:
Who do you think is mafia with Kieraen?

[EmpTyger]

That merits a reread and a vote.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

[EmpTyger]

Cute. But my reread isn’t to check on KoC. It’s to check about KoC’s 2 partners.

I do love how to Kieraen, it’s suspicious to not vote for players I think are town, and it’s suspicious to vote for players I think are mafia.

[EmpTyger]

KoC-Caboose:
I don’t see anyway of Caboose being guilty with KoC.

KoC-RBT:
I read RBT as doctor from the getgo, and, forgive me, but I’m having a hard time seeing RBT as a good enough player to pull this off. KoC’s behavior, however, makes much more sense as shameless buddying up to an innocent. Which makes me really not like RBT’s attackers- if KoC is defending RBT this heavily, there’s got to be some mafia attacking him just as heavily.

KoC-Lowell
I can see Lowell as mafia with KoC. He attacks minorly, but never with any weight. And whenever real attention comes, KoC insists that Lowell is a bad bandwagon.

KoC-Kieraen
I can’t take this interaction seriously.

Kieraen: “I’m going to launch a bad attack on KoC!”
Rest of town: “Kieraen is wrong”
KoC: “Oh poor me, I didn’t want to do this, but I’m forced to make a claim”
Kieraen “Why look at that claim. KoC is innocent.”
KoC & Kieraen: “Let’s attack EmpTyger!”

Kieraen’s play today has utterly erased the protown feeling I got yesterday.

KoC-dejkha:
I’ve got a lot of lingering nervousness here, but that’s mostly because of dejkha. Especially if there’s a {KoC, Lowell} mafia, because then his lurking through Spyre/Caboose and RBT/Kieraen is very suspicious.

KoC-Atronach:
Likewise, if there’s a a {KoC, Kieraen} mafia, because of [314]. But not much conclusive here.

KoC-Benmage:
At the end of D2, he accuses KoC about allowing a no-lynch- but switches overnight off KoC to me for some conveniently absent reasoning. But nothing much conclusive here either.

[EmpTyger]

KoC:
Atronach? That’s an interesting choice. Why don’t you tell us more about why Atronach is guilty.

---

Kieraen:
You’re actually panicking over my voting KoC.

[EmpTyger]

RBT:
How am I bussing Atronach?

---

Benmage:
The more I look at this, the less I like it. I really want to know how this hedgingly cover-your-base preattack on KoC

<snip>
There's still 4 others able to hammer with KoC's refusal...i guess by KoC's move he is also declaring that he would prefer to see a no lynch today. While I am sometimes somewhat favorable of a no lynch occasionally.(better to only have one innocent killed at night than one during the day and one at night) PlusI feel it gives our cop role more nights to investigate. Unfortunately I have become less favorable of that position in this game where it appears many actions are simply 'one-shot' moves and we may not have more investigators.

So in a sense this no lynch move by KoC is in actuality allowing scum a free night.

got replaced overnight by this, which really looks like you were attempting to frame Atronach if a bandwagon did form:

Your late case against dejkha and refusal to vote is why we are probably looking at a no lynch.

Vote Emptyger

---

dejkha:
Hey, look, it’s that time of day when I point out how much lurking we’re letting you get away with, while posting elsewhere.

---

The Votecount

Kieraen (3) - Knight of Cydonia, dejkha, Riceballtail

Knight of Cydonia (1) - EmpTyger
Riceballtail (1) - Lowell
EmpTyger (1) - Kieraen

Not Voting (3):

Atronoch, Caboose, Benmage

5 to lynch

[EmpTyger]

As entertaining as I’m sure hearing Kieraen’s sudden revision to “it’s antitown for a player at lynch-1 to not lynch themself”, the reason to wait is actually to make dejkha, Lowell, and Benmage get on record here. Someone unvote.

[EmpTyger]

I don’t think Atronach is mafia with KoC, but Benmage is lying through his teeth. That that still leaves too many good pairings among {Lowell, dejkha, Kieraen}

---

Lowell:

RBT is still the one who's claim I don't accept. Claiming one-shot doc in a game full of one-shots does nothing to impress me
<snip>

Says the guy whose sole defense against lynch yesterday was “I have a 1-shot ability”.

---

Benmage:
The problem I have with a massclaim is your eagerness for it. You had no hesitation lynching RBT after his claim, but you wanted a massclaim to evaluate KoC? And then this bit about a mafia roleblocker, which has nothing to do with KoC. And why would you suddenly blurt out “mafia roleblocker” *before* a massclaim?

That’s not getting into how your trying to argue with a straight face that lynch-or-lose is good, and lynching townspeople is a good thing.

@ Emp. You were ok with allowing a no lynch to bypass or essentially allow RBT to live, because you felt Dej was so terribly scum??

No, I felt *RBT* was so terribly *town*.

<snip>
KoC—jack claim. Makes him and RBT aligned
<snip>

Nice try. KoC can be guilty and RBT innocent.

---

KoC:

That's L-1, I believe.
I suggest we at least give Kieraen a chance to say something before anyone drops the hammer - if, indeed, anyone is willing to.

What were you hoping Kieraen would say?

[EmpTyger]

Deep down I would still really much rather lynch Benmage or Lowell if not KoC…

---

Kieraen:
…but at this point you’ve got a lot of work to convince me you wouldn’t be a decent alternative at deadline.

Why is Caboose is your number 3 suspect? Because Lowell has been more seriously silent, has a more problematic 1-shot claim, and whose claimed target is more suspicious.

<snip>
Knowing my alignment obviously, then I am inclined to believe Lowell's one claim ability.
<snip>

How so? You claimed vanilla yesterday. Temporarily assuming that you are innocent: If Lowell’s guilty, then of course he would know you targeted nobody.
The only way this makes Lowell’s ability believable is if you lied about being vanilla.

KoC' claim felt more like an excuse than a reason. Particularly his claim of having 'one more ability to use' and 'refusing to kill someone' which would be our only genuine proof.
<snip>

Here’s what you said at the time:

I'm a bit thrown by your jack of all trades case. It fits, and I'm more than tempted to believe both yourself and Lowell.

I'm starting to get tempted by an Emptiger lynch. He's jumped on an attack of KoC just when he actualy has given us some info. He votes first rereads later... Strike while the irons hot? Keep pressure up?

Added to that he didn't vote yesterday he seems pretty quick to vote now.

For now I'm going to give KoC the benefit of the doubt. I'm not wholely satisfied with his claim, baring in mind that all the other roles have been one shots, and he has a 'two shot' (guaranteeing saftey tomorrow).

And from the [388-389] exchange- you sound like you trust KoC. Which means either you’re mafia with him, or you think he’s town (implying you’re mafia).

---

dejkha:
An excuse for the past few days doesn’t excuse what has been happening from long before that.

[EmpTyger]

Nevermind. In the light of morning, KoC-Benmage-Lowell. Plus-or-minus dejkha still, but I’m not comfortable voting Kieraen any more.

---

Benmage:

Vote KoC

his claim fails here:

In newbie settings the scum sometimes have roleblockers. Assuming everything here is a 'one-shot' role its not farfetched to think they have a roleblocker. Announcing his role with this possibility... well i think he did so cause he's scum.

So you concluded KoC was guilty because of some mafia roleblocker you pull out of nowhere and think is 100% obvious. Setting aside how wrong you are- if that’s your only reason for voting KoC, then why are you ignoring that Lowell was a claimed tracker who says he got a result last night? The only way that that’s possible is if you know you’re wrong about a mafia roleblocker (making your reasoning for voting KoC fallacious) or if Lowell’s lying- in which case you should be attacking him too, since he’s implicated even more. Instead, you’re just using the shakiest of logic on KoC. I just hope I’m still around tomorrow to vote you.

---

Lowell:
So I just checked to see whether you suspected anyone other than RBT. With 1 exception, I had to go back to *Spyre*. But besides the suspiciousness of that, there’s something interesting with that exception. Earlier today, you say:

More detailed post will come when I get a chance. For now I'll say I find KoC very town

, Kiraen slightly town, and RBT suspiciously absent.

vote RBT

But here’s the more detailed post:

<snip>
KoC is implicated in this, I think, and is likely to be RBTs buddy if he turns up scum. That he not only (a) didn't vote for RBT at deadline, but also (b) tried to frame this action as pro-town (it obviously isn't) to sway others not on the RBT bandwagon from hammering, looks bad. As much as he says otherwise, KoC willingly letting a deadline go (at the risk of killing what essentially, even if wrong, would only be a vanilla role!) is scummy.

But all that reasoning had already happened after you had declared KoC innocent! The only thing that changed was that I launched a legitimate attack on KoC which you realized you immediately needed to start distancing yourself from. It’s a shame I can’t finish today what I tried to do D1 and D2.

[EmpTyger]

First of all: Kieraen shut up.

Second of all: we have *6* alive
1) Atronach
2) Benmage
3) dejkha
4) EmpTyger
5) Lowell
6) RBT

So 4 to lynch. Not 3.

---

Benmage:
…So you’re claiming a 1-shot vigilante who got 2 shots?

Wow. And I thought KoC’s claim was bad.

Vote: Benmage

[EmpTyger]

I was not expecting that.

Unvote: Benmage

Atronach/dejkha:
I want explicit confirmation in your next posts whether or not either of you cause KoC's death.

[EmpTyger]

Benmage's claim is laughable and his play is awful and I had a mostly finished post about how he and Lowell couldn't be more mafia.

Until he becamed confirmed innocent. So, now I need to reread because now I'm second-guessing everything else.

[EmpTyger]

Still rereading, but...

Benmage:
Forgive me for not claiming when my number 2 suspect- and only my number 2 suspect- was fishing to frame me. Seriously, I'm having to keep reminding myself while rereading that it's impossible for you to be guilty.

But, I'm the 1-shot roleblocker,. (And yes I hit you N2.) And I'm going to have a lot of words with the mod after and before the game is over about what the words "roleblock" and "1-shot" means, because from my role, you should not have been able to do what you're saying you did, and the mod's bizarre semantics should not have come that close to costing the game. (And I'm a little bitter because if I had known that that's how my role worked, I would have targeted Lowell N2.)

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:
I’d offer to catalogue all the suspicious things you’ve done, except I need to spend some time now finding the actual mafia and I need to run to work anyhow. But trust me, I would happily take up that chalIenge in postgame, if not before.

Anyways, think it is safe to assume RBT is also scum? He's played pretty scummy imo. His whole doctor claim seemed utterly pathetic. Dej and Emp were the two others who chose not to vote that day on RBT.

I'm leaning towards Dej, but inactivity is not a usual occurrence of scum. We can afford to knock out RBT and than have two days where we can kill Dej first and than Emp if Dej is innocent.

So start the voting on RBT? what do you guys think?

Firstly, no we can’t afford that. A mislynch at any point forward loses the game. (Unless you’re now a 3-shot vigilante.) And I still don’t see a guilty RBT.

Secondly, “inactivity is not a usual occurrence of scum”? What is this, your second game? (And you yourself were mafia in your first?) I can point to a nice list of games lost due to lurking mafia, from the first game I lost 4 years ago, to the most recent game I lost 4 days ago. Honestly, I can’t recall a lost game of the top of my head where the mafia weren’t lurking.

Thirdly, why is RBT mafia? And more importantly, why isn’t Lowell? I’ve reread those 2 (and KoC; still need to finish dejkha and Atronach), and I don’t feel differently. (And yes, I know, I was wrong about you, but I was right about KoC, who you were wildly speculating was a roleblocker, so don’t try to sell me on your infallibity.) So why RBT and why not Lowell? Lowell has claimed worse, contributed worse, has worse interactions with KoC, and if you’re simply using “KoC could have lynched RBT D2 but didn’t”- well, KoC could have lynched Lowell D2 and didn’t also.

---

Atronach:
You too- why is RBT mafia?

[EmpTyger]

Benmage:

<snip>
I know we can’t rush today’s lynch. We are in Lylo. But a successful lynch today gives us two days of lynching to find the last scum.
<snip>

No, assuming we lynch right today, it's 4-1. Then the mafia nightkill brings it to 3-1 tomorrow: 1 lynch. No margin for error.

And once again, how is RBT's claim terrible? Much less, worse than Lowell's. (Other than "because you say so".) Because Lowell's doesn't fit his play, isn't protown, and has been used as a blanket alibi for his antitown play.

---

The "Your mod was sick all day yesterday. Must have been the BBQ pork nachos at the football stadium!" Votecount

Lowell (1) - Riceballtail

Not Voting (4):

dejkha, Atronoch, Lowell, Benmage, EmpTyger

4 to lynch

[EmpTyger]

I have something I think I want to say but I’d want everyone to pledge first that, regardless of whatever else happens, they will not vote Benmage today.

[EmpTyger]

<snip>
Unless, say, you're a SK and you can't afford to risk death...

This is what has been worrying me, and why I wanted everyone to first pledge not to lynch Benmage.

Because I realized that Benmage isn’t confirmed innocent- he’s just confirmed not-mafia. I was assuming that he couldn’t be a SK because there haven’t been any other nightkills. But N2 I roleblocked him, so it’s just N1: and I think the simplest explanation is that he tried to target KoC, and used up KoC’s 1-shot godfather ability! (Which is how KoC was killed N3. I’m assuming that Benmage must have thought that KoC had been lying about not using the hider ability.) Alternatively, Benmage could have tried to kill me N1 or not submitted a kill. But this explains why Benmage got multiple shots, and it explains why Benmage thinks that the game could still be going even after a mislynch.

But I repeat:

Benmage cannot be lynched.

Because from KoC’s slip yesterday, I think the mafia started with 3 members. So even if he were 100% a SK, he’s not mafia, and so

if he were lynched today the town would lose

.

---

I’m ready to vote Lowell. If anyone wants me to hold off, say so in the next 24 hours, or else I’m putting Lowell at lynch-2.

Tomorrow: I think dejkha is the last mafia, but whoever may be left needs to *think* about the whole situation

very carefully

.

[EmpTyger]

Vote: Lowell

Remember, *think* tomorrow.