Mini 775 - Hammersmouth Is Under Attack! (Game over)

[Sotty7]

Hey, hey.

Here, reading and catching up all that fun stuff.

Unvote

as I do that.

[Sotty7]

Alrighty, I'm caught up now. I typed up my thoughts as I read here, some of my questions have been addressed/answered. I try not to sound like a broken record and some players have more comments than others. Still I figure this is the best way to get my opinions down on everyone.

I grouped my points for each player to be less confusing.

------Wall-o-text warning-------

---

CJMiller

Percy already has 3 votes. Not a L-x situation yet, but the hammer is a silent killer. Watch what you say, the mafia are everywhere.

Artem was also at three votes, why the Percy fixation? How is the hammer a silent killer, if anything a hammer is very

loud

.

What is your mafia experience level CJ? Played on other sites before?

@Artem and Percy: I wanted to say something on-topic so I wouldn't be seen as a lurker.

It's posts like this that make you look like an active lurker. You need to contribute more to the thread. Several players asked you questions and wanted some answers. Just posting “filler” isn't much of an answer and posting a one word answer with no acknowledgement to the question just confuses people even more.

The question at the front of my mind: Who's tying Percy's noose?

You find Percy suspicious?

CJ, so far, you have really shown zero indication that you are interested in finding scum. Do something about it, or I will be forced to conclude that you don't need to find them, because you already know who they are, because you are one of them.

What do you want me to do? Whenever I do anything, it just makes you all think I'm scum.

Unvote

because I will remain neutral for the rest of the day.

People are finding you scummy because you aren't scum hunting or even commenting much on the thread. You are posting the absolute bare minimum. That needs to change.

Vote: Kirroha

for acting too scummy to be a citizen

Posts like this, you have formed an opinion because of something kirroha said presumably. Explain why, tell us/show us what it was that made you think this. That's what scum hunting is all about.

I don't see any possible link between a Self-Watcher and a regular citizen (myself).

That wasn't what Artem asked you.

---

kirroha

Percy and Psycho could both be innocents making mistakes during the RVS, or could be scum slipping up. There is pretty much equal chance of both, so I do not think we should really get started on either of them right now. But I really want to listen to some sort of defense from Psycho.

(Not to mention him disliking my usage of "fishy" D:

You say there is an equal chance of Percy and Psycho being town or scum yet you want to give them the benefit of the doubt and not get started on either of them of them. How does that make any sense? We should be pushing anyone and everyone for information, the Percy and Psycho exchange is one of our early leads and you just want to ignore it? Well not quite ignore it, you do ask Psycho for a defense, yet you seem perfectly happy with what Percy had posted.

You seem to want to keep things light at the start, why not jump right in and get your hands dirty?

Percy, I sort of defended you a bit since I didn't believe that you were the mafia, but this post you made made me think twice. Are you buddying up to me, by voting for the person who showed some suspicion at me? It's a pretty anti-town action, and you didn't give any case on Pablo before voting for him. I change my mind.

Unvote

Vote: Percy

Pablo simply asked you a question, if he was suspicious it seemed to be minimum as he didn't vote or FOS you. This claim is just crap and I had to go back and look to see what you were talking about.

I am not rushing a lynch. I am merely trying to put more pressure on Percy to see if he would actually react differently. When people are pressured, they would tend to give out scummish signals or pro-town signals depending on their alignment.

What signals did Percy give out in response to your pressure?

In Post 68 you defend yourself a little bit. You repost something you mentioned about a past game. Where you accused with being someones scum buddy because you wouldn't pressure them at lynch -2. Is this going to be your fall back every time someone is close to a lynch? Are you going to pressure them just so you don't get accused of being their scum buddy? I have no idea why you saw fit to reference it, posting the reason twice as if it will excuse you.

Oh and also: I think it's weird why all the suspicions fell onto me just because of one single reason: I suspected Percy of buddying. That has long since been cleared in an earlier post, so please review it.

This is simply not true. There are players that find you suspicious outside of that (Artem and Iaaun off the top of my head) citing the fact that it seems like you are trying too hard to appear pro town. That has nothing to do with the random buddying comment you made.

Okay, kabenon007, don't think I'm going to stop attacking you just yet.

Then we have this quote. Definitely the oppoiste of the trying too hard claims. Something is off with this statement. I almost want to say gloating, but needling at least.

Anyway, currently I'm thinking of whether to claim or not. Because my role can serve to tell the scum about the setup pretty well.

Why do you feel the need to claim with only three votes on you?

True. But at this point in the game, a claim means next to nothing when anyone could claim any role and have just as much validity as everyone else. From a neutral perspective, pretending I don't suspect you and that you are town, claiming is probably a bad idea. If I'm wrong about you and you're innocent I'd rather you be useful. Just IMO.

That's the reason why I'm not claiming just yet. But if I get to L-1 and I have no choice, I will have to claim.

Now, as my suspect has changed to CJMiller due to kabenon's ability to show some good defense points, I will go and review his posts (or lack thereof) again.

What? Now you will only claim at lynch -1... So your last post was what? A soft claim to get people off your back and stop them from voting you because you have a super awesome role?

---

Percy

After

my failvote, but

before

my correction, I FoSed CJMiller for his post. I use my FoSes to clearly mark my suspicions, and tend to use them liberally (I find it helps on re-reads when other townies mark out who they're suspicious of, rather than hiding it in dense wads of text, and that's why I do it). I wanted CJMiller to answer the question, but I didn't want to leave the random vote phase. Leaving the random vote phase too early can help lurkers slip under the radar, and whilst I was suspicious of CJMiller, I wasn't going to charge at him yelling "OMGOBVSCUMMMMMMM!!!!!!11" before I got a chance to hear his response.

The thing is, the minute you placed a serious question accompanied by a serious FOS you pretty much ended the RVS. All random/joke/non serious voting after that is pretty telling one way or another because if they ignore the first talking part of the game you have to question why. If they talk about it, the game is being further pushed out of RVS.

Also I don't quite see how the RVS makes lurkers commit to the game. If anything they will post their random RVS vote/comment and then when the game does become serious they will lurk anyway. So yeah, I don't get it.

Urgh, tunnelling on the two of us to start with, when all of this has exploded out of not much at all, is pretty dumb. There are people who still haven't really got to posting, and much more info can be gathered about the entire playerbase. Why do you want to end the random vote phase when it's what generated this information in the first place?

You ended the RVS (well maybe CJ did technically but you certainly helped). The game had been open for like a day, some people can't check in for whatever reason. It being the RVS or not doesn't effect that at all. Plus if a player isn't going to post because the game is no longer in the RVS then they are pretty much set to lurk though most of the game anyway.

Also I don't see any kind of tunneling. Just you, freaking out that you are in the spotlight.

To clarify: Yes, getting started on us will generate content, but it won't be useful content unless one of Psycho, CJMiller or myself is scum. If we're all town caught in a clusterfuck of vague reads, the scum will rub their hands and hasten this along until one of us gets lynched. I'd prefer to keep my focus wide at this point.

All content is useful content. How everyone reacts to you three will help us figure out just who is on what side. Who ignores the discussion, who takes what sides and why.... All of this is useful regardless of alignments.

Your focus should always be wide. You should always be looking and examining everyone. Questioning and prodding players does not indicate a narrow focus. Tunneling happens over an extended period of time, not just a couple of posts.

Unvote
Vote: Pablo Molinero

After a whole post of questioning, prodding and serious content you....Random vote again?

I'm determined to keep things in the random vote stage, looking at everyone and yes, fishing for reactions before we go tunnelling in on any subset of players.

@CJMiller: Filler for what?!

Be determined all you like. You helped kill RVS, no amount of CPR will revive it. I'm sorry.... It's dead. Move on.

In answer to your first question, I don't think it's been "too long" in the random voting stage. There are clearly some players who have

completely

coasted by, and I don't want them being neglected.

Yet you are neglecting them by not even mentioning them. Who are these coasters? What should we do about it?

I know we have information now, and I think the way my wagon has progressed is good information. But I didn't want this to be what we're working with, and now we're stuck here.

To me, it looks like you don't want this to be what we're working with because it's about you. Plus we're not “stuck” anywhere. Discussion can take us anywhere. Why are you so content to muddy the information being generated at this point? Is it hitting too close to home?

I believe I answered your first question - I want to see each player talk and state opinions, even if they're small and dumb. I don't really understand your second question, but I think a lack of a good starting point (in the random voting stage) leads to unnecessary tunnelling,

as evidenced by my current state

.

You admit to tunneling yet do nothing about it. Tunneling happens mostly when a player doesn't realize what they are doing, or when scum just doesn't want to shift their focus. There is no excuse for your tunneling at this point. Especially since you seem to realize that you are guilty of this!

OK, I phrased that poorly. When I said "useful", I meant "information accurately identified as scumtells". I'm wary of the situation where the three of us get honed in on, our posts picked apart,

scumtells manufactured

until one of us is dead, and there isn't any chance we could hit scum because we're all town. Maybe we're not, maybe one of us is scum and it would be a great idea to shine the light on the three of us, but unless that's the case we're narrowing our search too early.

If the three of you are town isn't someone manufacturing scum tells, a scum tell in itself? You have a big issue with not only being in the spotlight, but being in the spotlight with these players.

What are your opinions of Psycho (now myself) and CJ now? How do you think they handled all this?

Are you buddying up to me, by voting for the person who showed some suspicion at me? It's a pretty anti-town action, and you didn't give any case on Pablo before voting for him. I change my mind.

There was no buddying. The content of my post was "It is still the random vote phase let's get everyone talking goddamn", and I voted Pablo simply because he posted directly before me. That was the only reason. Ascribing scummy motives and then voting me earns my FoS.

Well the fact you spent a whole post discussing content and then topped it off with a random vote that came seemingly out of nowhere, I'm not sure what else you were expecting in ways of reactions.

Although kirroha's reasoning was logicalfail, your attempt to continue the RVS while the game was clearly out of it (demonstrated by your own post)

is

scummy. Simply because if they can get away with it, scum will take as little responsibility for their own votes. Classing votes as “random” and “bandwagon pressure” are just a few ways they can do this.

---

Pablo

iamausername

I don't like the way you presume to speak for the whole town in saying this.

Word. And then placing a fourth vote on top of Percy. I'm all for pressure wagons, but that much out of the RVS seems kinda silly. I don't want to answer completely for Percy, but I don't think Sniper's question is has much merit because the Percy's RVS shouldn't mean much, if anything, while the FoS seemed to be transitioning out of it. However, Sniper does thankfully qualify his vote with:

Sniper

It's not an outright confirmed scum action, obviously

Why is placing a 4th vote on Percy out of the RVS silly? Even if you don't agree with his reasoning, it is providing the game with content which is what we want.

Also what do you mean by “thankfully”?

---

Artem

FoS: Percy

because I think you're being anti-town at the moment.

Why do you think Percy is anti town and not out right scummy?

In Post 70 you claim. I don't agree with the timing, I think you could have kept this to yourself and maybe caught scum in a lie later down the line. That said it would be pretty damn ballsy for a scum claim. I am leaning towards believing it.

---

kabenon

Wagons are used to lynch. Getting on them serves the town. I jumped on as vote four. If you're going to get pissed at someone for a wagon, go after the ones who put him at -2 and -1. I jumped on because I believed at that moment that Percy was the scummiest, therefore my vote would rest with him. I witheld my reasons for reactions, which I got.

You are still with holding your reasons despite saying you got the reactions you wanted. Why was Percy the scummiest player to you at the point of your wagon jump?

In Post 71 you do finally explain your reasons. Why wait until other players question you for it?

This is hilarious. Where did I say I'm trying to get Day 1 over with as soon as possible? You

[Pablo]

drew that conclusion on your own my friend. Also, you misinterpreted what I said, drawing your entire accusation from it.

You did say that you hated day one so I can see where he got that assumption. Still you know what they say about that.

I am not omnipotent. Gathering information is gathering information is gathering information. I had no particular goal in who I wanted to get information from, I have no particular person I was trying to trap or whatever. I was just getting information, mostly for use come Day 2. Once we have a couple corpses on our hands, we can then look back and see who defended who, who accused who, and who avoided speaking about anyone. Besides, I don't want to point anyone in the right direction, as that would be leading the town. People can take what they want from the information gathered. They don't need me to "point them in the right direction." Frankly, as of right now, I can't point them in the right direction, because I don't know where it is. But I didn't gather the information to try to lead the town somewhere, I gathered it just to get some information out there.

But saying you voted they way you did to get reactions/information and then seemingly do nothing with that information isn't very helpful. You unvoted Percy so I guess he is no longer suspicious or at least the most suspicious to you. Who is?

This was in her previous post... in which she is attacking me. I didn't say anything in between that post and the post in which she says I show good defense points. Nowhere did I get the impression that she thought any of my points were good, in fact it seemed like she was attacking me all the harder. Does anyone else find this suspicious, cuz I sure do.

People can't have more than one suspect?

---

Farkshinsoup

There's already a great level of activity in this game, which bodes well for it.
But am I really getting called out for lurking when 24 hours had not even passed since my last post, and we're only on page 3? And by a player who has posted a lot but said almost nothing (lurking in plain sight)?

Which player are you talking about here?

unvote

Psycho's last post seemed genuine. Maybe I'm just a sucker. I always want to believe the persecuted townie (see below). Except when I'm scum, of course.

How was he persecuted?

Lot of good circumstantial evidence against kirroha - I see where everyone is coming from. My head is saying "scummy" but my gut tells me that she's town. It feels like one of those things where every time she opens her mouth now she just confirms everyone's suspicions that much more. (I realize that could be because she's been caught, but the day is still young - I reserve judgement for now)

Right now I'm liking the CJ Miller wagon. He seems like if he is scum, some well applied pressure will reveal some cracks, or make him shut up completely. Either one would be telling.

Vote: CJ Miller

This is a whole bunch of fence sitting on kirroha, you have one foot firmly in both camps. You go on to state you like the (easier?) CJ wagon... Why?

Ok, my head just beat out my gut - I'm going to

FoS kirroha

. CJ Miller vs. Kirroha feels like bussing to me. I'd be happy at this point lynching either one of them.

What prompts this change?

---

Wulfy

He

[kabenoon]

brushes off all assaults in his last post and I don't think a townie should ever make the above post that he made. So, yes, I still feel this strongly about him.

Why don't you think a townie would make the above post?

---

Iaaun

Hey, hey.

Hi, Sotty! Are you scum again?

Hi

Nope. Are you?

Players like CJ are incredibly frustrating, because it's pretty clear that he would be playing exactly the same useless way if he was town or scum, and the chances are that he's town, just because there's more town than scum (unless CJ is the mod, of course). But either way, he's never going to be of any help to town, and we can't afford to let him slide by, because he might be scum.

We've given him plenty of chances to get his act together and do something to help the town, and it's clearly not going to happen, so

Unvote, Vote: CJMiller

(THAT'S L-1, Y'ALL)

Plenty of chances? It's only page 8 and yet you are just willing to give up on trying to get him to provide any sort of content? A lynch -1 vote at that. I pretty much agreed with what you had posted before this. Why are you so keen to get an end to this day?

---

semioldgy

I don't think it very likely for CJMiller to flip as scum. I'm willing to bet on his innocence. That being said, his style of play works against the progress of the town and I am fairly sure some opportunistic scum are getting in on his wagon to blend in with the frustrated townies.

Personally, I wouldn't be very comfortable with CJMiller still being around in a lynch or lose situation. Having him around obfusctes reads on everyone else and game progress in general as can clearly be seen by what has unfolded today, regardless of his allegience. His play is frustrating and distracting from other aspects of this game that could use more attention.

This is pretty much my feelings from what I have seen. I understand that players like CJ are very frustrating but that is no reason to just wagon the snot out of them and get them gone as soon as possible.

Vote: kirroha

The soft claiming, the misrep of the suspicion on her. The quick switch from kabe to the much easier CJ wagon wins kirroha my vote.

I want to hear more from Percy. He said he was going to post more soon so that is good. Now we are

firmly

away from the RVS I am very interested in what he thinks of kirroha and CJ's wagons. As well as everything else.

I find myself agreeing with Artem, Semi and Iaaun mostly in the thread as I read and once kabe posted a little more I started to feel better about him. Over is making an effort to look though the thread too which will help with my read on him seeing as he didn't seem to say anything of note, to me at least. I don't seem to have much of an opinion on Pablo, not sure why that is. I'm, glad Wulfy has dropped the RP, hopefully more content will result. Not feeling too hot about Farkshinsoup espically with his kirroha fence sitting. With the change of his tact I'm looking to see what the explinations for all that are.

[Sotty7]

So I'm supposed to post a wall of text every single post or I'm lurking scum?

Nah, but answering questions directed at you is a damn good place to start.

What do you want me to say?

Why do you suspect kirroha? You are voting for a reason. What is that reason?

Artem asked you what you thought about his claim. Do you believe it? If you do, how come. If you don't why not?

Basically I want you say anything

but

what you're saying right now because it's just not helpful. Hence why you are at lynch -1

[Sotty7]

Unvote; Vote: iamausername

My scum list now has two people.

Iaaun and kabe?

What do you think about kirr and CJ?

I acknowledged earlier that the fuckup was mine; I can't put actual suspicion down on the table and expect people to not talk about it, and continue on as if it never happened. In my mind, I wanted to keep getting the kind of info I was getting from the RVS, but putting my thoughts down at the same time. This is impossible, but I still like the RVS.

I think it makes lurkers talk. Notice that CJMiller is already complaining that the posts are too big, and it's all too hard, and most people are saying "Oh, he's probably just a townie!". Big long posts about things that have nothing to do with most players breeds lurking,

especially

if that's how the day starts.

I do see your point with the last sentence there. I do think a game packed to the brim of long wordy posts can run away some players. Personally I like a little balance, a good back and forth and “big” posts when needed.

Still content breeds content. This game didn't start off with big posts and I don't see it getting carried away with huge posts either. I don't hate the RVS I just don't see the need to prolong it when it becomes clear it is over, so your actions were very weird to me. How long would you have preferred the RVS to go on for?

Yes, plenty of chances. Over a good proportion of these 8 pages, CJ has been asked, demanded, cajoled, to provide any sort of content by just about everyone else in the game, and he is still refusing to do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out the magic words that are needed to persuade someone to actually play the game they signed up for. If CJ is not going to contibute (and clearly, he is not), then he needs to die. Simple as that.

And please do not try to stretch the length of the day to meet some arbitrary guideline for what is acceptable. If we reach a point where a majority of players agree that one player should be lynched, THAT PLAYER SHOULD BE LYNCHED. We don't need to sit around discussing the philosophical implications of that lynch to make sure we use up all the time until deadline hits. Why are you so keen to make sure the day doesn't end yet?

CJ is probably one the most frustrating players I have come across and I have only had one exchange with him. In an ideal world a replacement would happen and we'd actually get someone who

wants

to play. I don't know how likely that is however.

I have seen way too many day one lynches of bad players that flip town to make me want to policy lynch. Especially when those players don't learn from their actions. It's frustrating. You're right when you say they just play the same awful style no matter if they are scum or town so it's almost a coin flip lynch. When there are better cases out there, in my opinion at least, I don't want to lynch a player for just being bad. Right now if he keeps this up, I think he is best served as vig fodder. Unless the mafia Gods hate us and we have no vig.

And no. I'm not one of those players who say “days must be at least 20 pages long!!” Lynches feel quick to me if they are pushed though while there is still other avenues of discussion going down or players that still need to add to the thread. Like Farkshinsoup and Over for example.

[Sotty7]

Lot of good circumstantial evidence against kirroha - I see where everyone is coming from. My head is saying "scummy" but my gut tells me that she's town. It feels like one of those things where every time she opens her mouth now she just confirms everyone's suspicions that much more. (I realize that could be because she's been caught, but the day is still young - I reserve judgement for now)

Right now I'm liking the CJ Miller wagon. He seems like if he is scum, some well applied pressure will reveal some cracks, or make him shut up completely. Either one would be telling.

Vote: CJ Miller

This is a whole bunch of fence sitting on kirroha, you have one foot firmly in both camps. You go on to state you like the (easier?) CJ wagon... Why?

This question is loaded. It's an accusation masked as interrogation. You seem to be asking me why I had conflicted feelings about someone who I should have easily recognized as scum. That explanation is in my quote. Why am I not allowed to sit on the fence? I also explain why I put my vote on CJ Miller at that point. If you don't believe those explanations, that's fine. Then say that. (I will point out that CJ Miller was hardly the "easy" lynch at that point. Kirroha had more votes and more attention from the town, IMO. It's part of why I voted for CJ - I felt that he deserved at least as much, if not more pressure at that point.)

It's a question wanting an answer, it's not masked as anything. I wanted to know why you liked CJ's wagon at this point because you hadn't explained why you found him scummy in any kind of detail. Your vote seemed to be just pressure. Is that still the case?

When I say easy wagon, I mean that by CJ's posts in the thread to that point, he doesn't strike me as the hardest player to bandwagon at all. Your point about kirroha being the leading wagon/attention getter is true though. I don't like fence sitting because it allows you to quickly and easily modify your suspicions as the towns opinion changes.

In kirroha's 154 and 155 on page 7, she shifts gears from defending herself to attacking CJ. I didn't buy it. So many people had called her out for pointing out her own pro-town behaviour that this seemed like a very calculated change of tack to appear to be scum-hunting. Her 155 is a big long post that looks impressive, but instead dissects the posts of a player who basically hasn't said anything. There was no new information, unless you count the in-depth analysis of CJ's first post of the game. All of this felt like her trying to appear townie by filling up the page with words - words that hunt! I still think she's bussing. I'd still be happy to hammer, but I'd like her to claim first. She already soft claimed, we might as well get it out there.

Fair enough. What do you think of the claim?

I've been overwhelmed by homework this weekend, so I don't have anywhere near enough time to type out a full analysis. However, I have one major question:

Wulfy, why are all of your votes on people nobody else is voting for?

Why is that important?

The only issue I do have with Wulfy's voting style is that he earlier admitted that he voted for Iaaun simply for reactions. That strips the power of his vote away in my eyes and also allows Wulfy to claim “reactions” or “pressure” if people question him. However, his case and admittance that kabe is one of his top suspects does stop him from doing that in this case. Still the Iaaun vote was weird.

Re: kirroha's claim.... if she's the actual vig then I will turbofacepalm.

I still am not convinced on the case against her - she's clearly been nervous and going to great lengths to prove her townieness, but I don't see her as a good lynch (compared to CJMiller, for example).

I say we let her live tonight. If she's scum, she'll get vigged*. If she's not, someone else will die, and we'll have verified her claim. If a scum gets shot, hooray! If town gets shot and there is no other kill, we lynch kirroha tomorrow as scum. If two town get shot, then kirroha will have to state her reasoning behind her kill exceptionally well tomorrow to avoid a lynch.

* - in the case where there is no town vig or there is a mafia doctor to protect her from the town vig, the fact that there is only one NK and she's alive the next day will immediately disprove her claim.

If she gets NKed and she's scum, we celebrate. If she gets NKed and she's town, we cry (but the result would have been the same if we lynch her today).

I think the proposal that she shoot herself is worthy of consideration. I think we should leave that up to kirroha's unfortunate replacement.

Looking at the front page, the vig's can't target themselves in this game so that is out of the window.

The rest of this is valid though. At this point I simply don't believe her claim, I think she is scum and claiming vig is the perfect out for her. The most telling part about it is that she didn't claim how many bullets she has. Leaving that open gives her leeway to maneuverer and reduces the counterclaim possibility.

[Sotty7]

The sad part is that Kirr voted fourth on CJ yesterday. Odds CJ is scum is virtually zero in my book, and would have meritted my vote today. Odds for final vote count:

There was 1-2 scum on Kirr (the lynch)

1 scum on CJ

1 scum not voting.

Artem isn't definite scum, but is much higher. I am pseudo clearing the CJ lynch since I think scum would have attempted to avoid voting with Kirr who was an obvious lynch by vote 2-3. Therefore, Scum would have joined the Kirr wagon early.

Kabe-Sotty, highly suspicious.
CJ Voters-seconday
Artem-tertiary
User-9000-Last suspicious.

Vote: Sotty7

Basic vote analysis.

I don't get it.

You say scum would have joined the Kirr wagon early but I was the 4th vote, how is that early? Also how do you know if any scum were on Kirr's wagon? Sure odds are that there was probably at least one, but making assumptions based on just wagons is just asking for trouble. When I joined the game CJ was at lynch -1 and a few people were calling for his lynch. If I was Kirr's hypobuddy a hammer on CJ would have been easier for me at that time and would have kept the GF alive. I also think clearing a whole wagon is crazy. You don't think scum would try for an “easy” CJ lynch if it kept their GF alive if even just for one more day?

But yeah, WIFOM and all that. Still after what happened yesterday, lynching scum and the run up of someone you have now “cleared” you want to vote me on your vote analysis alone? Like I said, I don't get it.

Right now I want to hear from Over. He promised analysis of the thread and barely delivered before dropping a quick hammer on Kirr after it was clear she was lying about her replacement need.

Vote: Over

As for Kirr's flip = CJ town. Eh, I'm not sure it effects him either way really. I think Kirr latched onto CJ's wagon because it wasn't her own. The kabe wagon wasn't going to get her anywhere and CJ was doing nothing but digging his own grave.

CJ being alive today does prove that the mafia gods hate us.

[Sotty7]

I will admit, I bit off more than I could chew by promising a full-thread analysis. And I'll admit that my quick-hammer on Kirroha is very suspicious and could be seen as bussing once the town all but knew she was scum.

But, from my experience, scum attempting to bus fellow scumbuddies wouldn't do it in the way I did. Because, you're right. I offered no reason whatsoever for my vote. And if I were trying to bus, don't you think I would have given some sort of reasoning for it to make myself seem more pro-town? Or, for that matter, ACTUALLY lynch one of my scumbuddies?

Actually no. Scum buddies don't need to really reason their vote, especially the hammer in the way you placed it, because they already

know

the person they are voting will flip scum. They don't expect to have to answer for their vote because the net result is something to town wants, so they think they can get away with a vote with no or few reasons stated.

What is your experience of bussing then?

I got no list which means that either nobody targeted me or I was role-blocked.

Noted. Unfortunately, your claim is looking a little less solid now.

How is it any less solid than yesterday?

Now it appears that CJ earnt a lot of townie points through yesterday's shenanigans, but that doesn't change that he was the most scummy to me for honest reasons.

Some people seem to think so. Are you one of those people? Also saying you suspected him for “honest reasons” is a tad redundant. Everyone is going to claim that about every wagon they are on, scum inculded.

Unvote

Vote: Percy

for acting as separate from the town and other scummy behavior.

(Yes, I know I'm bandwagoning -- others that voted for Percy already posted my opinion.)

What

exactly

do you mean by "other scummy behavior"?

Artem: You can't really control how I play the game. However, I am interested, are you genuinely concerned that Sotty will be lynched at L-4? With a Godfather dead? Despite the fact his character has shown virtually zero threat to the mafia? (Sotty, this isn't to say you weren't trying, but the person you replaced was generally absent day 1, and thus, you haven't done too much yet...Except be a little crazy and controlling.)

His character? Are you saying I have shown no threat to the mafia? Are you forgetting that you were voting me for being on the Kirr wagon. Not only that but I swayed Iaaun's vote over to Kirr from CJ when I brought up the possibility of a vig taking care of him. I would say helping lynch Kirr makes me some what of a threat to the scum don't you?

Also Psycho launched the whole Percy RVS debate and once he knew he couldn't keep up the pace with the game he asked for replacement. I would also like to know how I have been “crazy” and/or “controlling” I think you are epically stretching here.

[Sotty7]

At Sotty: most of the things stated were about the person you replaced...so no stretchiness.

Also, I voted you off of basic vote analysis. My point is, why is artem freaking out and voting me over it? How is my action scummy? Why is he so freaked out over you.

I thought you were directly talking about me.

I don't see Artem “freaking out” I see him questioning you over your vote analysis where you happily clear a whole wagon and vote me for simply being the 4th vote on Kirr. I still don't see the logic.

Unvote

Vote: _over9000

Explain.

And if we have a Vig, they should probably shoot CJ. The guy deserves to die, but I don't think he's worth wasting a lynch on.

I support this, but him being alive today doesn't bode well for us. I want CJ to answer the questions Fark posted, but I feel that getting any kind of explanation out of him will be like pulling teeth.

[Sotty7]

Sorry for the hold up. I'm the 0-shot Vig

I believe Pablo is the only one left to claim so have at it.

[Sotty7]

Here's an idea...

Fark, Percy, PM target Artem. Iam Jails Kab/Sotty, lynch the other. If there is no kill, and they all target Artem, PM is confirmed town, and town aren't down any. Obviously if anyone fails to target Artem they are scum. If there is a kill, and they do all target Artem, Iam is scum.

Thoughts? Does that work?

Looks pretty solid to me actually.

I'm pretty sure it does. Possibility that Pablo is a mafia doctor, targets Artem and makes no kill, which would frame kab (assuming Sotty is scum, which I'm pretty sure is at this point). But we can afford a mislynch, and we'd get him the next day.

(From an outsider perspective, I could do the same thing as mafia roleblocker, but the same still applies.)

Vote: Sotty

.

Wait, what? How are you sure I am scum? I hinted to my vig nature pretty hard on day one during our convo about CJ.

I targeted Kabe both nights.

Why Kabe and why both nights?

semioldguy was sitting on Kirrhoa for a very long time and Sotty wasn't on CJ's wagon. Brilliant play from both players if semioldguy/Sotty is scum.

You have been corrected that I replaced Psycho, but as soon as I replaced in I slapped a vote on kirr even convincing Iaaun to switch at one point. The talk of the vig was pretty much me trying to get the bulletsmith to target me (if there was one) because I needed a bullet to take care of CJ.

Would it be better for him to give a bullet to Fark, so we have a 1-shot vig around as back up in case there's a flaw in the plan that we're missing?

Fark didn't claim vig. I did...

[Sotty7]

I have to say day 4 was my fav day. I watched the back and forth for a little trying to think of something to say that wasn't scummy and wouldn't detract from the Fark lynch and my sudden clearing. I pounder all this for a little while and the next time I check the thread Fark is lynched. It was awesome.

Gay.

What happend on N2?

Well I thought Wulfy was the cop with how easily and sweepingly he cleared CJ after the day one shenanigans. So speaking with Pablo we decided to kill him. I was all set to send in the kill but Pablo wanted to. His reasoning was to save the last ninja bullet in case we really needed it. And we did! Just worked out really well with Iaaun jailing me the same night too.

Nice call Pablo.

[Sotty7]

I have no issue with the posting of the QT