Mini 758 - Normalcy (GAME OVER)

[Caboose]

Vote: Atronach

Obvscum.

[Caboose]

spyrex gets townpoints. KoC does not. Carry on.

Any reason why?

[Caboose]

Preemptive crap attacks are scummy.
+scumpoints for Lowell

I don't see what people are liking about Spyre.

[Caboose]

I have to assume Lowells "Preemptive crap attack" was saying KoC doesn't get townpoints?

Yes. And my vote right now IS random, which reminds me to

Unvote

But seriously. Is there something you find scummy about his behavior?

No, I just don't see anything particularly pro-town about it.

Now, Lowell is being enigmatic, sure. However, this is over the top by all means. I had to look back to see if there was even a VOTE, much less a hate-filled bandwagon.

There doesn't need to be one for it to qualify as a crap attack. All there needs to be is a vague, nebulous statement of "I think X is scum" or "I think X is scum for this reason that's not a scumtell."

Reading back, Plum is pinging on my scumdar.

Any reason why you sarcastically dismiss the points as arbitrary and useless instead of, say, asking what the basis for them was? IGMEOY: KOC. I'll second Caboose's question, however - Lowell,, care to explain the reasoning behind your point distribution or whatever it was?

First off, I think KoC dismissing Lowell is not a scumtell in this case. If Lowell wanted to be taken seriously, then he would've explained his attack in the first place.
Plum looks scummy here because of two things: 1) she fans the flames of Lowell's "suspicion" of KoC by calling KoC down on a non scumtell, and 2) she asks Lowell for explanation, which plays both sides of the Lowell-KoC issue.
+scumpoints for Plum

[Caboose]

59, in many ways, is a parallel of 36. We have two pieces of explicit information (and a partial explanation of one).

1.) Lowell gets scumpoints (due to preemptively building a crap case).
2.) SpyreX does not get/deserve townpoints.

No, it isn't. My statement was in response to RBT and Juls saying that he liked you. Lowell's statement was not prompted.
False analogy, which means +scumpoints for SpyreX
And don't say OMGUS either. My reason is perfectly valid.

Thats 5, right there without Caboose that have expressed in some fashion questioning/negative attributes to Lowells question. Add in Caboose and you're sitting at a potential L-1. (Yes, this is under the assumption that suspicions become votes - EmpTyger's already did).

That makes me scum because.....
Despite your postzilla, your reasoning for your vote is pretty incomplete.

I specifically used the IGMEOY abbreviation because I thought that KOC's reaction was slightly different than I'd expect be typical - a little more sarcastic about Lowell's statements without asking if he'd share the rationale behind them. I knew that his reaction wasn't a real scumtell - it was just something different that, in this early stage, was something of which I'd take note. And then I asked, too. Just trying to either get the info out there or establish that Lowell wouldn't share the method to his madness, which would lead discussion down a different path.

If KoC's reaction wasn't scummy, why did you feel the need to call him down on it?
Why does "different" deserve an IGMEOY?

[Caboose]

The dissonance I see is thus:

spyrex gets townpoints.

KoC does not

. Carry on.

Preemptive crap attacks are scummy.

+scumpoints for Lowell

I don't see what people are liking about Spyre

.

But seriously. Is there something you find scummy about his behavior?

No, I just don't see anything particularly pro-town about it.

There doesn't need to be one for it to qualify as a crap attack. All there needs to be is a vague, nebulous statement of "I think X is scum" or "I think X is scum for this reason that's not a scumtell."

So, now keep in mind that my issue involves no other players than Caboose. The names and anything else absolutely do not matter.

The issue is this: There is a direct parallel between the blue and green processes.

Blue: Player does not gain town points.
Green: Player does not deserve town points.

So we are starting from the same basic premise, yet:

Blue: Player's statement is a pre-emptive attack. (The implication here or this just flat out doesn't make sense is Blue initially was saying "KoC is scummy")
Green: Player is neutral, not scummy.

So, now we get some dissonance. Same actions, different results. This is further exacerbated by the inclusion of brown.

Great job taking those quotes COMPLETELY out of context.

Again, Lowell's crap attacks were NOT prompted by anyone. Him saying that KoC does not get townpoints implies that KoC did something specifically that made him not deserve townpoints. I said that you do not look particularly townish in response to Jul's and RBT's comments about you looking townish.

Scenario 1:

Somebody: *random stuff*
Somebody else: *more random stuff*
Lowell: Spyrex gets townpoints, KoC doesn't

Scenario 2:

Juls: Spyrex looks town.
RBT: I like Spyrex.
Me: I don't see what people are liking about Spyrex.

There ARE differences between the two scenarios. Scenario 1 implies that KoC did something to where it was worth mentioning that he didn't get town points. Scenario 2 implies that SpyreX didn't do anything scummy, but he didn't do anything town either, like other people say he has.

Spyrex, Posts 36 and 59 analysis was spot-on. I think it's funny just how similar those posts really are. Caboose, I don't think it's a false analogy. The posts have different contexts, but your complaint about Lowell's post 36 was not that it was unprompted, but that it was making a pre-emptive case. Your post 59 is doing the same thing.

^Nice job just parroting what Spyrex said.

[Caboose]

I think this is where the disagreement lies. Scenario 1 = Scenario 2. The way you explain it here, is just two ways of saying the same thing. It was making note that someone should not get townpoints.

Only if you take what I said out of context. Are you really trying to make the argument that context isn't important?

Blue: Player does not gain town points, for no particular reason at all.
Green: Player does not deserve town points, despite what others are saying.

This.

Green: Player does not deserve town points, despite what others are saying, for no particular reason at all.

Do you understand that you start out with 0 townpoints and you have to have a reason to GET townpoints?

1.) What have I done that is scummy? (Hint: Lots of words isn't scummy.)

You took what I said out of context and blew it ridiculously out of proportion.

2.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip town?

Well, we can look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say.

3.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip scum? (Hint: A dead scum is p nice, but I'm looking for a bit more than that).

We can

still

look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say. Plus, we can look at RBT who jumped on my wagon for no apparent reason. Plus, we can look at Lowell who made a nice akward jump onto my wagon.

Vote: SpyreX

Claim.

[Caboose]

Do you realize that you gave the exact same reason (none) for my not getting said townpoints that you were so quick to leap on Lowell for?

Lowell implied KoC was scum.
I didn't imply you were scum.

You keep saying context and I asked for the relevant context and it has yet to materialize.

RTFT

So... if I flip town your logical conclusion is that I still am making it up and to go after people who see what I saw? Well done. Bravo in fact.

That's a very lovely strawman you have there.

Parroting is a pretty reliable scumtell if that's all someone does.

[Caboose]

I don't find one-liners, or "townpoints" or "scumpoints" scummy. I do, however, find hipocrisy scummy. Caboose looks much worse in this interaction with spy.

Please read the thread.

[Caboose]

Hey everybody.

I'm a one shot cop.

Plum is town.

That is all.

[Caboose]

Er - that's a pleasant surprise, I suppose. Any reason you chose me for use of your one investigation?

Gut feeling.

One shot power doesn't make you town.

Yes, it does.

Posting one minute after the thread opens makes it look like you wanted to get the first word in before everyone started jumping on you.

Either that, or I happened to be on when I got my result and the thread opened?

Must have missed the part that implied that I was scum...

This throwing around of suspicions just because of SpyreX's flip is stupid, though.

[Caboose]

FoS: Caboose

because... why? Why reveal that now? Now the scum know they have 1 less person to pick from when hunting power roles. Plus, claiming a one-shot power is pointless, because we have no way to verify it - you can't exactly do it again and hope for a watcher/tracker. Pointless, unverifyable claim For The Lose.

Because I might get lynched today or NKed tonight, and then the info that Plum is confirmed town is lost.

There's nothing I can do about you not being able to verify this claim. I have info and I'm sharing it, regardless of you liking it or not.

And BTW,

Posting one minute after the thread opens makes it look like you wanted to get the first word in before everyone started jumping on you.

Call it a stretch if you want, but I'm actually defending myself from what Atronach said in this quote.
When he said something about people "jumping on me" I know very well that it's because of the SpyreX flip yesterday. Everyone knows good and well that if SpyreX flipped scum yesterday, no one would give my wagon a second look.

[Caboose]

“That’s all”? Declaring someone innocent doesn’t find guilties. Atronach is right- you do seem far too eager to quickly establish your innocence, without any interest whatsoever in actually finding mafia.

Of course I'm eager to establish my innocence.
And if I had no interest in finding mafia, I wouldn't have even bothered to tell you guys my investigation results.

[Caboose]

Vote: Benmage

for out-and-out lying, and jumping on a bandwagon with a nearly

non-existent, completely parroted reasoning

.

Italics is what concerns me about Benmage.

Vote: Benmage

I think Lowell's roleclaim is true.

Also, what the hell did I do to become a "top suspect"?

We have an option, whereby we can protect Lowell

(who tracks tonight)

and lynch Caboose to see if he is who he says he is.

Lynching me just to see if my claim is true is just bullsh*t. You need to have reason to believe I'm scum.
The bold is weird to me. You seem to be pretty sure that Lowell is telling the truth.

That would result in (probably):

Two mafia in Lowell and Caboose, with Plum as a possible third.

or 1 tracker (with results pending), 1 confirmed townie (in Plum) and 1 dead useless cop.


The second option of course is that Lowell is a mafia using this as an oppurtunity to look townie. hmm

That looks like three options to me... And of course we have the ever present chance of Plum being a GF (which I doubt, but I'll be pissed at myself if this is true).

Your supporting a lynch based on just a roleclaim troubles me.

[Caboose]

KoC wasn’t asking why you claimed an innocent on Plum. He was asking why you claimed the 1-shot detail. Which I still want to know.

Because leaving out that detail would be lying. Not sure why I wouldn't claim that detail as it's pretty important.

Establishing your innocence doesn’t find mafia. Simply establishing your innocent only wins if you’re mafia, because mafia simply need to avoid being killed. If you’re town, you need to also figure out who is guilty. And you’re weren’t.

I don't understand this. Do I need to be "figuring out who is guilty" in

every

post? My first post was a quick post just for everyone's info.

Please tell me the name of one person who has "found mafia" today so far.

Roleclaiming and clearing someone else isn't a scumtell. Also, defending yourself isn't a scumtell either. It's become sort of a "scumtell" on this site and I completely disagree with that.

Why? Because I don’t. It has a huge hole of convenient (and imho implausible) amnesia. It does nothing to address the reasons why he was originally voted. And even if it is, it says nothing about his alignment.

Where's the huge hole? I must be missing it.
And this doesn't have anything to do with it being one-shot.

[Caboose]

Less so with Caboose. Though I find his defense lackluster. That is why it arouses suspicion, Caboose, not by nature of defending yourself at all.

I think the attacks are lackluster. I don't see how my defenses have been "lackluster" though.
Prove to everyone that they're not.

KoC, is this a "let's lynch Caboose to test his claim" vote? Because that concept is just flat out stupid.

If you don't believe the claim, then fine, but give a reason.

However one problem occured to me. The logical next move of the mafia would be to lynch plum (as confirmed townie he has no value to them). With no leads the NK becomes useless.

This

JUST

occured to you?

I feel like this is the train of piss poor thought here:
SpyreX flipped town and Caboose claimed cop early in the day. Therefore, he must be scum. Alright everyone, let's just lynch Caboose and hope he's scum. If he's not, well, that's two town down the drain. Hopefully, there's not a mafia roleblocker that's going to block Lowell.

[Caboose]

I don't believe the claim, Caboose. I thought I made that clear. It's too quick, and it's pointless to out town players. As a tracker, I only out townies in order to prevent a mislynch at MyLo or LyLo. Otherwise, it's not worth it.

That's a false analogy.

If you are a tracker, you don't have a limited number of times you can use your ability. Therefore, you always have a potential to find scum. I don't. I've already used my ability and it goes to waste if I don't share the info.

The whole thing stinks of a desperate attempt to move away a perfectly valid lynch.

Prove that it was valid before the claim.
You've been avoiding doing so for quite some time now.

[Caboose]

Caboose:
I *really* don’t like how you are responding to questions without answering what’s being asked.

KoC wasn’t asking why you claimed an innocent on Plum.

He was asking why you claimed the 1-shot detail. Which I still want to know.

Because leaving out that detail would be lying. Not sure why I wouldn't claim that detail as it's pretty important.
<snip>

Not my question

. Why did you claim at all?

YES IT WAS YOUR QUESTION. Stop playing mind games with me. I told you why I claimed over and over, and everyone still keeps asking.

LISTEN UP EVERYONE:

My Claim: One-Shot Cop
Why I claimed: I only get a tidbit of info. No more. That's all there is, so there's no reason to sit on it.

(And, explain why that detail is so important to claim. Because to me, either the mafia don’t know about its significance detail, in which case why would you want to blurt it out. Or the mafia do know about it, in which case it means nothing. Except that you are reallyreally eager to be the first to claim and reallyreally insistent that it makes you innocent.)

What are you not getting?
If I don't put in the "one-shot" part, someone will ask me tomorrow for results and then it'll be a game of "OMG LAL!!!!1111"

I don't understand this. Do I need to be "figuring out who is guilty" in

every

post? My first post was a quick post just for everyone's info.

Please tell me the name of one person who has "found mafia" today so far.

The point isn’t finding mafia. It’s *trying* to find mafia, versus simply trying not be lynched.

I never thought I would see the day when a cop just posting his results turned into a scumtell.

Roleclaiming and clearing someone else isn't a scumtell. Also, defending yourself isn't a scumtell either.
<snip>

You’re not being accused of defending yourself, but of defending yourself when you weren’t being attacked.
Why not, instead of blithely declaring that your behavior is not a scumtell, you say what might be a scumtell in others’ behavior?

Because it's not.
Also, I would like you to stop saying "you're not answering the question" when I clearly did. It's annoying and slightly scummy because you're saying somethings that's just not true.

<snip>
Where's the huge hole? I must be missing it.

Um, the conveniently unused ability last night? Which conveniently requires a presumably 1-shot doctor to use up their ability tonight?

Who said a hypothetical doc was one-shot?

And this doesn't have anything to do with it being one-shot.

This is ridiculous and I’m *this* close to switching my vote to you. Considering how aghast and high-minded you got about oh-I-*had*-to-claim-cop-and-not-only-that-1-shot-cop-because-anything-less-than-that-would-be-a-lie when you declared Plum innocent, why are you being so incomplete and so dodgy in refusing to provide reasoning when you declare Lowell innocent?

Yes, I agree, my wagon IS ridiculous.

[Caboose]

I don't see the case on RBT.

My gambit was

umpopular

and with too many flaws.

Is the bolded reason the real reason you abandoned it?

So.

Vote RBT

Why do you think RBT is scum?

Mod: Please prod dejkha.

Done.

Where’s your clear answer to Why do you think Lowell is innocent?

His claim is believeable. Also, he hasn't done anything scummy since his day 1 crap attack.

Who do you think is mafia?

Will be answered soon.

I hypothesized it.

So you're using this hypothesis to justify you saying that there's a "huge hole" in Lowell's claim? And I don't see how him not using his ability makes a "huge hole" either. I wasn't going to use my ability N1, either, until the ridiculous bandwagon built on me Day 1.

[Caboose]

The VT claim at L-3 hurts Kieraen's case more than it helps.

What the
Godfather possibility slightly increased.

Meta defense is also troublesome.

This is true.

Vague 'I always look scummy, so you shouldn't attack me for looking scummy!', however, is useless. Thinking alud is normal, stupid WIFOM defenses are always a red flag, but by now it's a signal we may have gone off the deep end here, if you get my drift.

This is also true.

Benmage doesn't deserve my vote anymore. I think he's put enough independent input for the

Unvote

.

RBT jump onto the Kieraen wagon troubles me.
RBT, why exactly did you vote Kieraen, again. I know you said it wasn't OMGUS, but if it isn't OMGUS, what is it?
And don't just say "what Plum said," either.

[Caboose]

Oh, and,

Vote: RBT

---

The "Second day of class in Arkansas!" Votecount

Kieraen (4) - Plum, Riceballtail, dejkha, Knight of Cydonia
Riceballtail (4) - Lowell, Kieraen, Benmage, Caboose

Lowell (1) - Atronach
Dejkha (1) - EmpTyger

Not Voting (0):

6 to lynch

[Caboose]

The VT claim at L-3 hurts Kieraen's case more than it helps.

What the
Godfather possibility slightly increased.

You didn't find the premature VT claim at least questionable?

No, especially with the approaching deadline.

I can see how the VT claim wouldn't convince anyone of his innocence, but it shouldn't be used to condemn him. That just looks like scum trying to get a mislynch.

[Caboose]

Back from V/LA. Will catch up.

[Caboose]

From the no vote yesterday, EmpTyger's chance of being scum gets close to 100% if RBT flips scum.

Current suspect list. KoC, RBT, Lowell, Dejkha and emptiger. My vote might dance around these guys today, I'm fairly sure at least two of them are scum.

Current suspect list. KoC, RBT, Lowell, Dejkha and emptiger. My vote might dance around these guys today,

it depends on who's closest to the lynch near deadline.

I'm fairly sure at least two of them

can be mislynched.

+scumpoints for K

I love the immediately OMGUS from K onto KoC.

[Caboose]

More later tonight.