Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[mykonian]

Mykonian just started reading this mess

[mykonian]

sorry people. It takes a bit longer to get in this game then I expected. I don't have a lot time just around this and rereading goes slow. I made it halfway the game.

I have a test today, and after that, there should be a litttle more time to play mafia. Sorry to keep you waiting.

[mykonian]

o, btw

unvote

not that it seems like someone is in danger by my vote, but just in case.

[mykonian]

I assume we have no vig, or it is corporate, otherwise he should have been dead by now.

I also think ether calls herself too often town. In this game, you play town, we decide you are town. Calling yourself town, surves no need, only your need to show you are town. Town wants to scumhunt, not to look town. Scum wants to look town, so calling yourself town is a scumtell.

vote fuzzyman

a) rather weak third vote on mizzy in post 104 (not very bad)
b) bandwagon third vote on corporate in post 164 (just follows GC)
c) opens the possibility to vote simpor (fifth) in post 327
d) post 379: votes simpor (L-1) after patrick unvoted, mentions later that patricks unvote was town in his eyes (was to afraid to hammer, but is on the bandwagon, for little to no reason)
e) after some people go of simpor, he votes corporate again post 398. No reasons. And don't say you don't need reasons to vote corporate, because you need to ask yourself the question, is corporate scum, or annoying town?
f) after 406 crywolf votes corporate too, and gets attacked for it! Could you please take a look at fuzzy too?
g) in 421 fuzzy contradicts himself: patrick is cool for unvoting, yet fuzzy votes right after that. If you see that, why don't you vote fuzzy?
h) 424: fuzzy admits to have lied, but the defence in where he lied still keeps of the attack. I learned in my first game to lynch all liars, and in that game town was badly hurt by not doing it. Now you are letting him get away. O yeah, votes simpor again (fourth vote on simpor). No reason, just a common "he is scummy" statement. attack crywolf for the vote on corporate (pot and kettle?)
i) 458: wants to lynch everybody that is currently in the spotlights
j) post 361: and votes corporate again: nothing more.
k) 484: states he also wants to lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)
l) 561: and guess who votes simpor again...

Fuzzy hops a lot between bandwagon, with little to no reasons behind his vote. He is lurking/active lurking. He can be away for some time, or he can post a few one liners short after each other, but he isn't helping. No cases, no reasons, and always on the bandwagon.

I also see him buddying up to GC (do I have to give examples, or do you believe me?)

I don't blame anyone for lynching simpor, as his play wasn't that great. And it is a shame we don't have a vig.

[mykonian]

because corporate is acting very, very antitown, is not helping, and is not worth a lynch. Therefore he is the obvious vig-target. The fact that he is not killed shows we don't have a vig. No fishing, just a conclusion based on the information we got from the night, and just my view on the horrible play of corporate and expressing that corporate is not quite worth a lynch.

And ether, you can prove yourself to be town by hunting scum. If you do that, there is no way the crywolf can get you lynched.

If I would say here: "I am soooo town", what purpose would it have? Would it get scum lynched? The only purpose would be to make you not lynch me. Yet this is not a priority of town. The priority of town is to lynch scum.

[mykonian]

may I ask, empking, what you think so scummy about GC? I think he does a good job being town, opposed to you now. Look at your post, what does it actually say? "lets lynch fuzzy, he defends GC". Empking, would you please point out where, and why it is so scummy? Right now, with corporate and fuzzy still in the game, we got enough bandwagoneager people that don't want to give proper reasons for there votes, so please explain your vote.

[mykonian]

Of course not. I just want to know where you get your statements on other players from, so I can check them. If I said that Empking is the scummiest player on earth because he never gives reasons, I should at least give examples for it, before I could be believed. Then you can look if those examples "prove" the statement, and that way we avoid that scum with empty statement lynch a town. Simple, isn't it?

[mykonian]

Ether, what was the problem with that quote? I'd like to know why you vote me. That at least gives me the chance to defend my self.

[mykonian]

Yes, I hadn't seen ethers post when typing this. This was a reaction to your post above.

[mykonian]

vote fuzzyman

c) opens the possibility to vote simpor (fifth) in post 327

Yes I did. Point, please.

The point is, that you open the possibility to jump on the bandwagon when town thinks simpor is scum. Or you stay of it, or you agree with it. Saying: "I may be on later, when he is close to being lynched" is scummy

d) post 379: votes simpor (L-1) after patrick unvoted, mentions later that patricks unvote was town in his eyes (was to afraid to hammer, but is on the bandwagon, for little to no reason)

I thought that Pat's unvote was town because he felt uncomfortable about having a hammer. He probably wouldn't have greived anybody had he kept his vote there, and scum would have no reason to delay the end of the day, would they?

So you put simpor again on L-1, so you have a chance the day will be shorter? And why do you leave simpor after 2 persons unvote too?

e) after some people go of simpor, he votes corporate again post 398. No reasons. And don't say you don't need reasons to vote corporate, because you need to ask yourself the question, is corporate scum, or annoying town?

My 284 has all the reason I personally needed.

ok. You think corporate scummy because he doesn't cooperate. Or is he antitown?

g) in 421 fuzzy contradicts himself: patrick is cool for unvoting, yet fuzzy votes right after that. If you see that, why don't you vote fuzzy?

Nobody said that conflicting ideals couldn't both be town, did they?

If I'm right, some people pointed out the contradiction here. Calling an unvote good, and then vote, is weird

h) 424: fuzzy admits to have lied, but the defence in where he lied still keeps of the attack. I learned in my first game to lynch all liars, and in that game town was badly hurt by not doing it. Now you are letting him get away. O yeah, votes simpor again (fourth vote on simpor). No reason, just a common "he is scummy" statement. attack crywolf for the vote on corporate (pot and kettle?)

No contest, although I'm not really familiar with the expression, "pot and kettle,".

I'm sorry: I feel you accused crywolf for something you did yourself too. Voting corporate for little to no reason, just because he plainly acts antitown.

i) 458: wants to lynch everybody that is currently in the spotlights

False. I do not think cry should be lynched.

you get the point, again opening your options to get on the bandwagon

I do not want you, Ether, GC, myself, or crywolf to die right now.

l) 561: and guess who votes simpor again...

Point, please.

Your vote is surprisingly often on the person that is most in danger of getting lynched

Your argument has some validity, but not corporate validity.

I left things out that I think I don't have to react on. Bolded is mine.

[mykonian]

I think corporate is being an annoying person because he wants to play an annoying person, but I don't know if he is scummy.

Not changing your vote wouldn't be a good idea, I think I know something better.

I would like you to make a decent case, anytime you vote. You can change as often as you want, but state what post(s) make you do that, and why. Then we can check how well you do that. If you were town, you would be able to gain information with it, and maybe you get some people that agree with you. If you are scum, we will catch, just because your reasons for voting are far to weak, and the only purpose seems to be to lynch someone else then you. Exactly the thing I am voting you for.

[mykonian]

Ether, I would please want to hear why you aren't my friend. Talking with fuzzy can be fun, but with us two, there is little lynching, and half of the game is about that.

It would also be good to comment on the case I made against fuzzy.

[mykonian]

I don't say you are scum corporate, I say that your playstyle is not the most helping playstyle possible. So the only thing I say is something about your playstyle.

And nice bandwagon vote.

[mykonian]

third I thought. It seemed it was most between corporate and simpor.

[mykonian]

and you are town for not killing a towny.

a. If you knew, how did you do that? I know only a few roles that know who are townies.
b. could you at least have told us we were killing a towny? It might help town, you know...

[mykonian]

of course I'm going to say that what I think is the way that it should be done, what do you expect? If you want a lynch, you are doing the same.

And great that I am seriously bugging you, I've heard more statements like this now, if anyone would care to say what I am doing wrong.

The main point I have expressed till now is that I really don't understand how you could go so easy on fuzzy sometimes. Fuzzy really wasn't obvioustown and some of the actions you are at least doubtfull. Care to tell me what I am overthinking, when you can find some time? I just put all the feelings and facts I had on the player I thought most scummy day 1 in one post.

[mykonian]

Who were you talking about? With the few posts I have made till now, I thought I had only made statements about fuzzy and corporate, maybe GC. The last two, GC as near certain, I see as town now.

If I'm wrong, then you would be also wrong for following me. Most times you have different lynch candidates. I think fuzzy is the best choice, and I say that, and why. If you think it should be someone else, make a case, and see what we choose. There is nothing that states I couldn't agree with you.

Also, if you don't like what I posted about fuzzy, because it is wrong, point it out, so we can see the case is not as strong as it looks. That is how you can come to the best decision as a group. I'm just giving my first input.

What you give as reasons why you don't like me is that I'm overthinking things, and too early with pointing fingers (day 2?). It would help if you gave an example of this. On this moment I don't really know what I'm accused of.

[mykonian]

ugh.

Well, maybe this gets some reaction: GC, could you tell me why you are voting me?
Fuzzy, is there someone else that you consider scummy (not corporate).
Mizzy, you promised me something, could you give it in the weekend?
Crywolf, could I have your top 3 scummiest players?

[mykonian]

explanation? Probably in the first post this day. After I had finally finished rereading, Fuzzy was the scummiest. I posted what post of fuzzy made me think he was scummy. I also pointed out that I feel (and nothing more) that corporate is a dead end.

Behind fuzzy, I'm not so sure about scumminesh. You, mizzy, empking, are fighting for the second place.

Lately (and call this omgus) I don't know what to say about GC's play. Day 1 he was very protown in my eyes.

[mykonian]

It is a pleasure to see you try to be protown fuzzy. I can't promise anything, but you earned an

unvote

. Keep this up!

I don't see the big problem with GC. Really, why vote him, while there are persons that are certainly less protown. eh, like, everybody. Let's not fall for the too towny falacy... If he did "pull the wool over our eyes", he is a fantastic scum player. Or he is just the quite good town player. I wouldn't mind loosing against a great scum player, but I would certainly mind loosing to scum that made us lynch our best player. And even if he is scum, don't you think it would be a little weird he would lead us constantly to the wrong lynch?

To summarice, no way I'm going to vote GC.

[mykonian]

top...

ehh, empking would be high on my list after this move. Could be a simple mistake, but still he shouldn't make it. I'm still waiting what mizzy is going to do, could be that she'll be high on my list too, depends on her case on me. Fuzzy is still on it. And yes I know I unvoted him, but I like him to play better, even if he is scum, in stead of just active lurking that won't tell me anything when he would get lynched or killed or before that. His play has improved and I think he should know that.

And because I think corporate to just be an annoying player, most other people I have barely a read on.

I would defenately need another reread before I would see some weak points in other peoples play.

[mykonian]

or: let lynch the person that lynched a towny, he must be scum.

only, he didn't know simpor was town, and simpor was acting antitown => GC voted simpor.

[mykonian]

ok, lets put in a better format

GC is town: he didn't know simpor was town, lynched him for antitown, scummy actions.
GC is scum: he saw an easy mislynch, made himself look town and lynched simpor.

Nothing wrong with the second, but also nothing with the first. A mislynch is not a scumtell: would be fun, you would have more then half of the town as scum

[mykonian]

He is at L-1 if I'm not wrong. That's why I wait with my vote.

[mykonian]

sorry, read the votecount the wrong way: now he is at L-1

vote empking

I think fuzzy is spot on.

[mykonian]

care to tell us where your attention can go, without mentioning emp? He is doing a good job of getting himself lynched.

[mykonian]

thank you GC. We'll wait.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, mizzy, but empking doesn't seem to defend very well... What would your explanation of that be?

[mykonian]

...

It stays hard to have this game active.

Mizzy, do you still have something for me?

[mykonian]

and you have found your big target again, well done.

I wouldn't say that only Ether is inactive the last time...

[mykonian]

...

It stays hard to have this game active.

Mizzy, do you still have something for me?

Did I forget to answer something for you? Sorry, the game is really slow and it's hard for me to stay interested.

You had a case on me. I thought you had said you would post it, but you still haven't.

[mykonian]

never mind then. It wouldn't be much use if you have to think it up now.

[mykonian]

yes, and go fast through this day...

fuzzy was already the target, we finally had it at something else...

I thought you wanted to take a look at mizzy and ether too? What happened to that? The case on fuzzy I posted already on the first page day 2. You only used a few more words. It is not that hard to get a lynch then, does it?

Plz take a look at the other people before we lynch fuzzy.

[mykonian]

Plus, it's difficult to attack a player who isn't around.

I would have far less problems with your play if you stopped hiding behind real life, and at least not this way. We all have lives, and some of them are busy, but how many people use that as their defence quite often in their game?

[mykonian]

The above comes out too hard...

[mykonian]

oww, I'll hide for some time in shame.

[mykonian]

We wouldn't mind if you accidentally forgot to prod corporate, and just replaced him...

[mykonian]

fuzzy, could you explain what you are saying here? It is probably my bad english, but I have trouble understanding what the point is.

[mykonian]

yay, quote piramids.

I have actually read them. I'm happy with the play of fuzzy today Let's see if he can keep it up.

[mykonian]

he could hardly convince you, as he is not here.

[mykonian]

yay, I can see this again!

Corporate, do you have some thoughts about the game? I would like to hear them.

[mykonian]

oh, sure. It is not like anyone here is very active, so waiting is not such a big deal.

[mykonian]

The similiarity between crywolf's and myk's pictures will now cause immense confusion when I skim the thread.

Boo. Both of you. Boo.


Also:

oh, sure. It is not like anyone here is very active, so waiting is not such a big deal.

You aren't exactly helping the cause.

I'm the smart one.

and I rather wait for some reasonable input I can react on then to do nothing except to decide between empking and fuzzy.

[mykonian]

GC: I have two suspects: fuzzy and empking. I have read something, but those two stand out to me. After the recent posts from both, they both begin to look better. The other people I mainly have no read on.

So yes, I'm kind of waiting for someone with a brilliant opening, with inspiration, where or how to look. Otherwise I'll just end up choosing between my biggest suspects.

I hope this clears things up.

[mykonian]

Prod acknowledged.

Filtered Mykonian in some completed newbie game; was annoyed to find that he seems to be competent as scum. (I'm horrible at filter metas; when I say "competent as scum," I mean, "cares enough about a game to bump it when it's inactive." Hey, I can't do that myself.) Regardless of Fuzzyman's alignment, it bugs me the degree to which he bloated up the case on Fuzzyman in 564. Most egregiously:

As y'all have probably figured out, I'm willing to go to Simp if we're deadlined.

k) 484: states he also

wants to

lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)

Fuzzyman picked up his flak in the first place because he kept edging out of the Simpwagon in shady ways...it's fairly obvious that that's not the direction he was hoping to go in.

Not wild about his behavior around Corporate, either.

I´m afraid I don´t completely understand what you are saying. I don´t see the point you try to make with that completed game, I know what game you are talking about. Also, I don´t know what "bloated" and "egregiously" mean, so I'm not getting what the problem is with that point against fuzzy. It is just one of the more points that show some kind of pattern that fuzzy was always able to go onto the biggest bandwagon, that he always kept his options open. And about corporate... well do you know what to make of him? I don't. Do you want a policy lynch? On the moment, I think there are better options, scummier people.

Empking's case on Canary and debate with Fuzzyman still make my eyes blur over. Oh, well. I'm assuming Fuzzyman's defenses of Canary are what prompted Mykonian's unvote in 635. This immediately makes me think to Canary's conclusion that Fuzzyman was aiding him superfluously. Part of me worries that I'm just nodding along at this hour...like I said, I barely followed the Empking/Fuzzyman exchange myself. Eh. I want Mykonian to elaborate on what he liked. (I acknowledge his 639.)

In post 639, I thought I showed what my reasoning behind the unvote was, but that fuzzy stayed on my list. I like it better when people are active, even if I think they are scum.

[mykonian]

Oh, GC, I had already given you a third name if I had one. It is quite hard to find anything against most of the players. Fuzzy and Emp are the only ones I have really an idea about, and I have the feeling that you are town. Yet most of the rest of the people are quite unreadable. That's why I hoped someone would post an idea, might not even be important, but that could give me an idea where or how to look. Maybe it helps if I'm going to count small tells too. I see if I can get a list for you.

So the problem is that Ether thinks the case on Fuzzy is more then it should be. I pointed out a pattern, you pick one point out and say I'm too suspicious. You don't tell us what exactly is wrong with the whole post, you just tell us that that small point is not worth it. I tried to point out that fuzzy continiously switched between the major bandwagons, and that he continiously kept himself the option to switch again. You point out that he doesn't want to vote Simpor (while he tells us there it is an option).

[mykonian]

I think some of your points against Fuzzyman are valid; some are meh. But K stands out to me as an outright lie. Fuzzyman refused to vote Simpor over Corporate at a point where the switch would have been simpler to make; he only made that post because of Canary's hypothetical question about a deadline situation. It bothers me a

lot

that you interpretted this; it strongly implies to me that you're less interested in determining Fuzzyman's alignment and more interested in pumping up a case on him. And...you haven't addressed this specific point of mine, just argued that that wasn't your only post. I'm going to put my

vote: mykonian

back.

Incidentally, what are your opinions of Crywolf and q21?

This is what I posted then: I know such statements are weak on its own, but here that statement fit in in what he did.

a) rather weak third vote on mizzy in post 104 (not very bad)
b) bandwagon third vote on corporate in post 164 (just follows GC)
c) opens the possibility to vote simpor (fifth) in post 327
d) post 379: votes simpor (L-1) after patrick unvoted, mentions later that patricks unvote was town in his eyes (was to afraid to hammer, but is on the bandwagon, for little to no reason)
e) after some people go of simpor, he votes corporate again post 398. No reasons. And don't say you don't need reasons to vote corporate, because you need to ask yourself the question, is corporate scum, or annoying town?
f) after 406 crywolf votes corporate too, and gets attacked for it! Could you please take a look at fuzzy too?
g) in 421 fuzzy contradicts himself: patrick is cool for unvoting, yet fuzzy votes right after that. If you see that, why don't you vote fuzzy?
h) 424: fuzzy admits to have lied, but the defence in where he lied still keeps of the attack. I learned in my first game to lynch all liars, and in that game town was badly hurt by not doing it. Now you are letting him get away. O yeah, votes simpor again (fourth vote on simpor). No reason, just a common "he is scummy" statement. attack crywolf for the vote on corporate (pot and kettle?)
i) 458: wants to lynch everybody that is currently in the spotlights
j) post 361: and votes corporate again: nothing more.
k) 484: states he also wants to lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)
l) 561: and guess who votes simpor again...

And in the end, he votes Simpor. You pick K out as a lie, but if you see the other points around it, don't you see a pattern. It is all in one post... And why did you "forget" that in the end, fuzzy did vote simpor?

Q21: neutral-protown: nice posts, but I don't really know what to think of him. Doesn't really stand out to me.

Crywolf: protown. Dares to take a new stand, is actively scumhunting.

[mykonian]

ok, I have read mostly his posts, and not your reactions on that, but ok, here you say fuzzy didn't really want to vote simpor.

I also seem to have missed something, that you think I dodge. Should I say something about K in isolation? I have already done that, it would mean nothing on its own. It is the shakyness of fuzzy's votes and the fact that he mainly switched between the main bandwagons, posting little of interest. Could you explain what is sinister about that? It's a nice characterization, but it tells me not what the problem is.

Now it seems we don't get to the problem. I have the feeling I have explained, but clearly you don't. You think something is very wrong with my case, and I can't see it.

[mykonian]

and it is confusing, as he has two protown players (in my eyes) high in his scumlist.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, but what is wrong with a vote on empking? Why should she unvote?

at least it should tell him that we are hoping for a little more then three words in one post.

[mykonian]

I don't think we have recently been busy with fuzzy's actions, but this is what I think of him now.

Esspecially now I see my case back: his day one wasn't strong.

Day two, he seems more protown, there is some action. He goes after empking, but also stops that. I honored that with an unvote. Still I don't know if it would be a good way to deal with his scummy day-1 play. We first had to tell him what had to be changed before he became looking better.

[mykonian]

Eh, I didn't see your post when I made my 817. I was actually asking crywolf.


But, in re: 815, I don't feel comfortable voting a player who has been acting so obtuse that he would fail at being scum. Maybe if I thought Emp was incompetent at life I would think he is just bad scum, but he's shown the mental capacity to actually argue and be (semi) rational. It's just that his arguing positions are horrifically bad. Like, beyond face-melting horribly bad. It just seems to me that scum wouldn't harp so long on logic that the whole town has already dismissed as failed because it's just asking for their own lynching. Maybe it's some sort of an ultimate gambit, but I don't buy it. Not at the moment. That's what's wrong with a vote on Emp.

is this from previous games, or only just this game? (is this meta-defence, or a too scummy fallacy?). You admit his play isn't strong. That is the same that I see.

Additionally, I don't see why you're characterizing Emp's play as minimal. He's been pretty vocal on attempting to explain the failings of his logic in the past and his three word post is hardly characteristic of his play at large. Not saying that he's been successful in making his logic legitimate, just that I don't see how you could say he's been anything less than willing to explain why he feels the way he does.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that your reasoning behind a vote staying on Emp is that he isn't being vocal, but you yourself have utilized excuses to explain away your own lack of contribution. Pots and kettles, sir. Hypocritical reasoning behind a vote is bad reasoning behind a vote.

I have voted him then for scummines (although I can't remember now what it really was), not for lurking. I only reacted on that one post: it would have been nice if he said after every person one sentence why he felt they belonged there in his list. You accuse me of lurking: true, I am having problems getting new ideas up. Further then nitpicking previous posts I don't get at the moment. Doesn't mean that I'm not trying.

[mykonian]

I'm going to check something, as this is weird.

[mykonian]

Ã

[mykonian]

the only use of a breadcrumb is to show that the claim is not a last moment thing, like when I would get a guilty on me. Now it's use is indeed not so big, it might make the claim stronger, as claiming miller isn't the savest thing to do, because scum can use it to explain guilty's so that town cannot rely on the cop. From what I heard, millers tend to get lynched a lot .

But in this case, that will at least stop you from mislynching corporate, when fuzzy is indeed an insane cop.

[mykonian]

I don't really have a concrete case, but I'm going to

vote: crywolf20084

.

Thank you for pointing it out. This way, it won't be you that makes people vote crywolf, unless someone else goes that way. I'm sorry, but what is the use of this vote?

[mykonian]

The most noticable thing crywolf has done as I remember, is attacking Ether. It didn't feel weird or something, and she did it actively. It is the reason I think crywolf most likely town.

[mykonian]

myk is happy, and started with looking at the four persons that seem to be in the spotlight. Later today you should get a post from me about that.

[mykonian]

yes, GC, let´s see what I can do with a reread!

crywolf:

she starts very slow. This is pointed out by Ether. In post 68, she still hasn't said anything usefull, but accuses Ether of active lurking (wasn't the case, I thought).

Although post 74 could be true.

The game finally starts for crywolf with post 141: and I must say that I like it. She posts relevant things against Ether.

crywolf votes corporate in post 172. Can't blame her after the previous posts from corporate. Fourth vote on corporate.

the "Ether trying to lead the town is scummy thing" is probably a stretch. Seems more like Ethers playstyle (finally, a positive playstyle argument!)

Nice PBPA's on the people that should have been looked at. (why does ether question?).

I feel post 305 is spot on. Ether seems a little concerned with her protown image.

post 323 is close to bandwagoning on simpor. Town could do it, but we know now what simpor was.

in post 509 we finally hear that crywolf will be active again.

almost 100 posts further crywolf posts... a new scum list

around she defends GC good. let's buddy up to the most protown player.

why is crywolf the only one that thinks it weird that fuzzy kept a guilty for himself? post 832.

And the conclusion to this story, in post 849: votes between ether and crywolf. Ether doesn't bother to post a case, crywolf reacts on that. While crywolfs reasons (apart from the vote on her) can only come from Ethers early play, Ethers reasons could only be lurking: so who is the person that makes the OMGUS vote here? Crywolf, while all day, ether was high on her scumlist. I'm on crywolf's side here. Ether makes no sense, she just voted to be earlier then crywolf (mizzy, why are you so eager to scream OMGUS here?)

Ether:

Starts towny by scumhunting (called so by mizzy)

begins early with getting crywolf active.

post 75: why say you are town?

post 77: more prodding crywolf (5-6th post about it)

post 89:

Dislike q21's vote, regardless of Mizzy's alignment.

not explained...

more asking for activity.

No. I'm not thrilled with Mizzy, but I completely believe that her job is serious business. And she

still

manages to be more active than half the game. I think the focus should move to someone else for today.

So how did your read go, Corporate?

distancing? but still getting your buddy out of the firing line? and more asking for activity.

post 128: votes crywolf (lurking I guess from the post)

post 131: asking for prods

146 finally confirms that 128 is a lurker vote.

then we get questions about corporates other account.

in this gap till 262, I think I have seen 4 prods/lurker-attacks

292: insinuating she is town.

Crywolf strikes me as town who realized deep in her heart that I was telling the truth but is too proud to admit it. I can try to defend her more later, but long story short, I'm just not feeling it.

Like I said, the power role sentiment seems vaguely familiar but I'm not sure where from. But it wasn't in question form, and no one could possibly expect me to react to it in a way that betrayed my role at all. Simpor's question could have been harmful, because it both encouraged Crywolf to look, and could have said something about

her

role.

The bit about there being more going on in her subconscious than she's willing to say also explains the change of heart on Simpor. Meh.

Technically

that

wasn't a "too townie" fallacy, though I'm sure I've myself up for some of those as well with my brilliant blazing towniness. (The fallacy wouldn't be "Ether's calling herself town," but instead "Ether is scumhunting and inhibiting lurking and actively participating in the discussion and she is totally awesome and it's fairly obvious that she's trying to lull us into a false sense of security.")

And Simpor's most recent posts are super weak. I don't blame her for her vote at all.



First off, I don't think Crywolf was actually fishing; second, this doesn't cover why it's okay for him to ask. (But you agree later that the fact he asked was scummy, so fair enough.)

cut the last part out of this: again insinuating she is town, and a surprising stance on crywolf, seen the latest events. A town gut read.

This day has now officially gone on waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

is not a scummy statement on the bottom of page 21.

Dislike Mykonian, and Canary's Simpvote still kinda rubs me the wrong way. Not really averse to the Fuzzwagon, either, though; I'm not sure where I stand on much right now. Meh.

cut again something out of this, this part interested me. This was short after day 2 started. Why not give reasons why you dislike me?

this results in a vote on me in post 570: no reasons given.

the unvote in post 613 is nice, after two people hopped on the bandwagon, for not liking me (mizzy), and getting ether back in the game (GC). Wait, sorry, mizzy didn't vote me, only didn't like my posts.

then we have "point K" of my case: Ether voted me for it (she says that in post 803), because it would be a lie. I tried to show a pattern in fuzzy's behaviour, and she picks one point out as a stretch. I must say, I have probably been wrong about fuzzy.

and now we get to the real mess. The vote from ether on crywolf. No case, nothing. Crywolf reacts on that (she had ether longer on her scumlist) and sees this as a good reason to vote ether. Like I said with crywolf, who OMGUS-votes here? Ether, that actually had a town-gut-read on crywolf before, or crywolf that had reasons all the time to go after crywolf. I think I have heard the term: preemptive OMGUS before, and I think it applies here.

funny thing is how eager mizzy is to scream OMGUS... at crywolf. That can't be a good move.

conclusion: Ether has done a good job early in the game to look active-protown by going after lurkers and making them do something. But, as you have pointed out with that meta about me, this is not a hard thing for scum to do. Plus the view statement that insinuate you are town, I think you are too concerned with it.

Most of the time I had problems to point out where Ether was really standing: because she attacked a lot of people. But that last crywolf vote really makes no sense, and makes her scum nr.1 to me.



I'm lacking concentration now, I'm going to try to do the same for q21 and mizzy tomorrow. That's also why I wait with my Ether-vote. Maybe I find something about the other two tomorrow.

[mykonian]

I tried to find what made you look towny, and if that really makes you town. An important thing seems to be the prodding. However, scum could do that easily. You have questioned a lot of people, but in the end, your main attention seemed to go to people that (active)-lurkers. Again, not really wrong, their play wasn't good, but that doesn't make you obv-town. But the activity things, and your posts seem to tell us you are. Why?

and the preempive omgus, it is just a word. While your play against crywolf is weird (no reasons, nothing, the only thing I can come up with, is a lurker-vote), crywolf's vote is natural. There was already suspicion, and your vote on crywolf makes absolutely no sense. Mizzy's omgus call on crywolf is simply not deserved.

and yes, the last events color my views while rereading. Crywolf hasn't been very active (only one real stance I can find, against you), while you have been prodding and questioning people.

and I'm happy that fuzzy didn't claim right away, in this case it helps us a lot, and if he looked at the game, thought it unlikely that he would be nightkilled, then it is completely justified. Doesn't mean that the question doesn't need to be asked.

and since this is my first game with everyone here , I don't do anything with meta. Via other ways (MD and so) I heard that I can't expect brilliant play from him. Lucky for us, he tries.

[mykonian]

you don't understand what I say about crywolf-ether?

it is simple: I can't understand why you vote crywolf, and I would have done the same as crywolf at that moment. From crywolfs play, it makes completely sense to vote you there. You give no reasons for a vote, it just is there suddenly. It is scummy. Whatever words you use for it.

and about meta: I haven't invested in it, true. I'm not the person that is going to look how other players play in other games. Next time I play with you, I might remember.

But, if I told you that if I'm town I start in my first post with my own name, would you believe me? If someone protown, let's GC said it, would you believe it then?

I've been told meta-defence is bad, and I can see sense in that. What is meta-selfdefence? just pure wifom. It is not something I can go on. Anyway, you know, and everybody can see, that the big point against you is that last vote. In the first part you are unreadable to me. I have pointed out what I think are big parts of your early play, and how this could be a null tell for an experience player. I think you would know how to be protown without endangering your win condition. That is all.

The case of the early play from crywolf is easier. More lurking. Not esspecially protown.

[mykonian]

Scum would love to vote someone without giving a reason.

If you are town, why would you do it. You say for reactions. You will look a little scummy, but you will see how the town reacts. Just to make it absurd, would you also hammer a un-cc cop?

Why wouldn't you give reasons? Now we can't be sure that you have them. That's also why I don't understand mizzy's eagerness to join you. Crywolf's vote is understandable, and mizzy screams: "OMGUS, Lurker" and votes.

and I took your advice, and Patrick indeed says you are most times more active in a game where you are town. Meta in favour of you.

and bogus scumtells... trying to see if your behaviour could be explained if you are scum. I think it could. But I must say, meta contradicts this. But then tell me, what is this vote on crywolf? It doesn't fit in with protown play...

[mykonian]

Awesome, an "I'll vote now, I'll tell you why later" stunt. I hate those.

And what, one OMGUS vote isn't good enough for you, cry, you have to go with yet another? Can't you do anything original?

you are proving a point here.

GC: If you would vote me, without any reasoning, I would look you very closely, probably even vote you. The same happened with crywolf. Ether suddenly votes her, not explained by previous play, not explained by reasoning. That vote was scummy, and crywolf reacted like she should.

what bothers me after that, is that people use the word OMGUS to vote crywolf, suddenly not needing reasoning behind there votes on a less active person. You didn't look at the situation. You just see the response to a vote, with a vote; you call it OMGUS, and you think your vote is justified. It isn't.

The above quote from mizzy shows exactly why she is scum: she jumps on a bandwagon, with her vote only justified by the power of the magic word OMGUS, and now she yells at crywolf: "OMGUS, Lurker!". That is scummy.

The only weird thing is, I wouldn't expect two scum to act like this. And while Ether and Mizzy stand high on my scumlist, recent events kind of contradict that.


and fuzzy, why are you asking for my role PM? It is against the spirit of the game... but if it makes you feel good, I'm a shoplifter.

[mykonian]

Yes, I was uncertain on that too, but it seems an insane cop gets a guilty on a godfather and an inno on a miller. It happened in other games.

[mykonian]

Q21

post 88 is his first real post. Seems like a good post to me.

hmm, ether attack him for it. Don't quite understand why.

143. summary post. He isn't really active against ether. also points out in favor of ether.

man, you are not very active are you? I'm starting page 10 now, and really, I haven't seen so many posts. However, it must be said, there is a difference between your inactivity and crywolves: with you I have constantly the feeling that I know where you stand, you are better then her at expressing your view on the game.

but now I'm on page fifteen, you have voted here and there, but there was nothing exceptionally agressive, no a single strong attack. That way, you are acting the same as Ether: you look protown, you ask questions, you make small attacks here and there, but nothing real.

Ether, I'm too lazy to check myself, but have you ever commented on the inactivity of Q21?

after several pages been gone, he posts 466: he attacks :empking, simpor, crywolf and fuzzy. You only missed corporate in the easy-targets list.

620 Q21 points out that crywolf leaves him twice out of her scumlist. Would not make sense for crywolf-town to do this, but would not make sense for q21 to point it out. Minor point against crywolf I guess, trying to link herself to q21

he is the only one to doubt my claim. I like the way he puts that logically together in post 877. Only problem with it is that he assumes all the possibilities are equal, something that doesn't need to be, and in this case isn't true.

conclusion: You can see this is a little small, and that is because Q21 has not been very active. The posts he make I can say the same about as Ether's general play. It seems protown, but if he is scum, I'm sure he could do this without harming his buddy's.

[mykonian]

...Well, that made my mind up for me.

Myk has pointed out that cry hasn't done very much that has been noticeable (other than attack Ether) and not only do I agree with that but I see cry getting right back into the same rut as she was in before. She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

I mentioned before that I was neutral (with a side of suspicion) about:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Fuzzy claimed cop, which I won't second guess at this time, and mykonian claimed miller, which again, I have no reason to doubt so will accept as true, tentatively. And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.) That leaves:

Fuzzyman

Empking

crywolf20084

mykonian

Out of the other folks, corporate is innocent if Fuzzy & myk are to be believed, and since I am accepting that for the moment:

Ether

corporate

q21

And there is the potential scumteam.

Looking at this, it makes sense that cry and Ether have been at each others' throats; distancing. And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Thus:

Vote: crywolf20084

for a blatant OMGUS vote, a shitty case, and being a hypocrite. Along the rest of the case above. And

FoS: Ether and q21.

Let the flame wars ensue.

OK, I missed the potential scumteam point (but can't that wait? I think it is most useful until we really did catch scum), and the fact that you scrap empking, and choose from q21/ether/crywolf, you choose crywolf for the bolded reasons: Lurking and OMGUS. congrats, I had read it. Now what was the point I missed? Is suddenly the fact that crywolf is in a scumteam with Ether conclusive evidence? Is the fact that you dismiss other players from your choice?

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

[mykonian]

ok, I'm not quite sure what the defenition of OMGUS you use means, I have trouble understanding it.

Not that it makes a difference. Mizzy uses the word to justify a lurker vote, while I think, even your broader version of OMGUS would count for crywolf her vote. Crywolf reacted like everyone would on your vote, scum or town.

the aggresivity and how sure mizzy is that crywolf must be scum, with such a weak case, that is most driven by the magic word OMGUS is pure scummy. I will wait with voting her until I completed my reread on her. Tomorrow I will finish that, I'm free then.

[mykonian]

The rest of my case still stands. Cry has not scumhunted, which is the biggest point against her.

how do you want to tell me this is not accusing cry for lurking?

and how would you react if I voted GC, without giving any reasons, just place the vote. Would that be protown? In case GC was somewhat suspicious, would it be usefull for scum? GC would have every reason to doubt my intentions, and I think he would be entitled to get an explanation is quite an aggressive way, with vote, and if he didn't get it, I think he should assume I have no reasons, making my vote antitown.

The action crywolf makes is natural, no matter how often you use the word OMGUS. How should she have reacted on Ethers vote?

[mykonian]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

[mykonian]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

No, the lack of scumhunting does

not

mean lurking. Scum don't scumhunt; they already know who scum are so they don't need to hunt for them. So a scummer can be totally active, and not actually do any scumhunting.

that's why I didn't put the arrow between "lack of scumhunting" and lack of action. Crywolf hasn't done a lot, a lack of action. call it active lurking, I guess that covers about what Crywolf did.

Now you are starting a theory discussion what the difference between "lack of scumhunting" and "lurking". I don't know if that is the way to go, but let the rest decide.

[mykonian]

@ Myk 901

So I've been inactive. If you look through you'll see that a huge percentage of my posts are over the weekends - the only time I'm guaranteed to have access. I'm probably just as active over the weekends as most of the other players.

And yes, I take all the options equally. Mafia is not an exercise in probability, its an exercise in human interactions - humans will do the improbable nearly as often as the probable. See above for the two main reasons for that.

I don't attack you for your inactivity, I saw the posts that excuse your inactivity. It is just something that stands out if you look at you.

I think it is not justified to take it all equal. True, some chances even out, or close to, by WIFOM. But WIFOM doesn't mean 50/50. That's because there still is a optimal strategy from each point. So unlikely options, stay less likely. Highly unlikely options stay highly unlikely.

So yes, probability is something that you have to think of when playing mafia. Even better, you do it all the time

When someone makes a very scummy action, it could be that he is town that made a mistake. When someone acts very towny, he could still be brilliantly playing scum:

but it is highly unlikely

[mykonian]

Ok GC, we know cry hasn't actively scumhunted.

would any player say he didn't? This is a lie, but wouldn't it be one that town and scum could make?

anyway, crywolf, you can start now

[mykonian]

I generally don't tolerate players who lie about their own accomplishments to make other players look bad in comparison.

I can agree with this.

the question is if this applies here. Was it intentional?

[mykonian]

She. SHE. God how hard is it to remember that?

And okay so i assumed i was in the clear, guess not. I'm gonna post after I finish my chem and precalc homework.

I'm trying, really... esspecially because you seem to be quite concerned with it. But after midnight, I'm not on my sharpest anymore...

[mykonian]

mizzy, why are you so eager to push a vote through on crywolf by continuesly saying that she voted OMGUS? It is not like your case was so brilliant, and you now try to get the lynch purely based on the effect of that word. I don't like it.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, I forgot the reread on mizzy in isolation. I don't know how the next two or three days will be, it could be a bit busy here. Nothing scary in terms of normal play, but I don't know if I can get the time to reread that much.

well you know what I think of mizzy anyway. The play against crywolf is scummy.

[mykonian]

1) I can understand
2) Ethers vote was scummy, and deserved such response.
3) your reaction was typical scum: you want to push a small case through (little evidence, small tells) with the magic word OMGUS.
4) seen the point above, this vote is justified. Would be nice for her to say that too.

And it is very simple. I think you make a basical scummy action, voting while screaming OMGUS, where OMGUS makes most of your case. That screams scum to me.

The fact you do this on crywolf, makes it very unlikely that you are both scum. So I don't know really what to think of Ether and Q21, although I would go for Ether if I had to choose between them, but you stand out as scum to me, and from that follows, that crywolf is likely town.

And the whole rest of your case... is a weak distancing argument, and the fact that she has been close to active lurking. Don't make it bigger then it is. While you want us to believe you have a lot against crywolf, you actually don't. Usually, people would look further after they heard a case that was based on active lurking and distancing. But now that the (unjustified, I think) word OMGUS is added, it is suddenly a brilliant case? Come on...

vote Mizzy

[mykonian]

mykonian:

So basically, you say my case is weak when yours is just as weak, if not weaker? So what makes yours better than mine?

You make a case better then it is. You try to lynch someone based on the word omgus. That's a standard scumtell in my book. Even if it was pure OMGUS (what never happens, and certainly not in this case), it would be the moment for scum to get the town going to get that mislynch. That is what you are doing here, and that's why I vote you.

[mykonian]

You make a case better then it is. You try to lynch someone based on the word omgus. That's a standard scumtell in my book. Even if it was pure OMGUS (what never happens, and certainly not in this case), it would be the moment for scum to get the town going to get that mislynch. That is what you are doing here, and that's why I vote you.

Are you not doing the same thing I am? Are you not putting more emphasis on one point to make the case stronger? You're a hypocrite.

ok, you've got a point there... Although I'm fairly confident in the tell, and it was obvious you did it here, this is the weakpoint of my vote.

[mykonian]

So, myk is comfortable lynching one player (Mizzy) who called OMGUS on another player (which has been backed up by two other, additional players) instead of another player (Crywolf) who has continually ignored all points put to her while bold-face lying to the town to make another player look scummy in comparison. Town don't lie to make other players look scummish. Scum do that.

Call me oldschool, but why are we just not lynching the bad lying liar?


And I don't think Mizzy is -1L. I only see Ether, Wolf and Myk on her wagon. Did I miss the fourth?

I think mizzy is a liar too, I think she made her case look stronger by screaming omgus, and telling she has more. Even if it is OMGUS, her case on crywolf isn't that great: lurking, distancing with Ether. Not something that deserves the attention mizzy wants to give it. She actually behaves like she has found 100% sure scum, and that is way from the truth. The more often you yell OMGUS at a player, and thereby justifying your vote, the more I will think you are scum.

[mykonian]

sure I know there is little to defend with crywolf. Her play hasn't been optimal, and I know. But here we have scum that found an easy target, and that's why I vote.

[mykonian]

Ether: your crywolf vote without reasons, and I have to see what you come up with on mizzy. I don't know if this is a scumtell now...

[mykonian]

yes, kind of. It is very general, and even then, I don't know if that is conclusive to be scum. I am not completely happy with it.

[mykonian]

mostly the first paragraph. There are some general statement that you give as reasons for your vote. Bandwagony, omgusy votes. Reactive behaviour. And if they are true, does it make crywolf scum? If I was scum, a proces of elimination would be quite easy to fake. And gut, well gut as a reason is pretty weak, isn't it?

So I'm not thrilled by post 881.

[mykonian]

yay!

[mykonian]

I'm sorry mizzy, I doubt if that last readthrough will come there. I have read through it, but I will again only be looking at it from my viewpoint, and I don't know how that will help.

This caught my eye.

I hate the majority of scumtells because they are often used as excuses to pull bad plays. Scum can cry "scumtell!" just as much as town can and quite frankly, scumtells can point to town just as much as they point to scum. Better to use cold, hard evidence than to just shout "scumtell!" and expect me to agree.

[mykonian]

then are you surprised that I have some trouble with the way you handeled the "OMGUS" vote from crywolf? It is the perfect example of what you say in 118: there is a scumtell (OMGUS), that you want us to follow you for that, because you're case isn't that great.

[mykonian]

I never once said that the omgus was a "scumtell." I said it was a scummy action.

come on. You know this is BS.

A scumtell is an action that is more likely to be done by scum.
a scummy action, is an action that you percieve to be likely done by scum.

there is no difference Now, try again, you must be able to do better.

[mykonian]

I don't really think that that specific contradiction is scummy; I think this is one of those things that Mizzy seriously believes.

I keep getting the last word on the arguments with Mykonian and then he'll pop back in a few pages and say I'm still scummy without being able to back it up. It's annoying. I'd like to get that over with once and for all.

I simply can't really understand why everybody is so sure about crywolf. But really, don't worry, I don't think you should be the lynch today, as I can also barely make a good case against you.

[mykonian]

I simply can't really understand why everybody is so sure about crywolf.

Read the issues that were brought up against her. Then read the utter lack of any real response on Wolf's behalf to these issues.

read the lack of response, brilliant

but the point here is, those two words: so sure. I can see crywolf is not beyond doubt town. But I can't also see it the other way.

[mykonian]

GC, you don't see mizzy as a potential scum candidate? Esspecially the way she acted around crywolfs "omgus" can't be called normal.

[mykonian]

people say it is a null tell for Ether... to be busy with how town she is. There has been some talk about it.

[mykonian]

myk:

A "scumtell" as usually used is a term that generally means some action that scum "always" do that magically makes other people able to tell that the doer is scum. Meaning, scumtells are actions that are said to be ONLY done by scum. Example:

Person A: "Yay, there was no nightkill last night!"
Person B: "Scumtell! Vote: Person A!"

Ether understands my stance on scumtells.

And no, a case and mentioning scummy actions are not scumtells. And I feel that the concept of scumtells is bullshit.

But this is exactly what you are doing with that "omgus" vote from crywolf. That is exactly what is happening here. You scream OMGUS, vote crywolf, and you have for the show a weak (lurker) case behind it. But it is clear that you want to push it through with the word OMGUS.

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

[mykonian]

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

And no, I said no such thing so

don't you dare

put words into my mouth. I said that multiple scummy/suspicious actions compounded to make me suspect her as scum. The one OMGUS vote was simply the last straw in a long series of suspicious activity. And more of such activity came after.

I don´t think anybody should be lynched for being slightly lurking and possibily distancing. (with ether.) That was what I still know about the rest of your reasons, and I have said that before: that is not something you want to lynch for. But when you added OMGUS, suddenly it was. What a great scumtell must that be...

[mykonian]

Deduction has me thinking we may actually have wagons on two scum.

then mizzy has done her distancing very well...

[mykonian]

...Well, that made my mind up for me.

Myk has pointed out that cry hasn't done very much that has been noticeable (other than attack Ether) and not only do I agree with that but I see cry getting right back into the same rut as she was in before. She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

I mentioned before that I was neutral (with a side of suspicion) about:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Fuzzy claimed cop, which I won't second guess at this time, and mykonian claimed miller, which again, I have no reason to doubt so will accept as true, tentatively. And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.) That leaves:

Fuzzyman

Empking

crywolf20084

mykonian

Out of the other folks, corporate is innocent if Fuzzy & myk are to be believed, and since I am accepting that for the moment:

Ether

corporate

q21

And there is the potential scumteam.

Looking at this, it makes sense that cry and Ether have been at each others' throats;

distancing.

And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Thus:

Vote: crywolf20084 for a blatant OMGUS vote, a shitty case, and being a hypocrite. Along the rest of the case above. And

FoS: Ether and q21.

Let the flame wars ensue.

OK, I missed the potential scumteam point (but can't that wait? I think it is most useful until we really did catch scum), and the fact that you scrap empking, and choose from q21/ether/crywolf, you choose crywolf for the bolded reasons: Lurking and OMGUS. congrats, I had read it. Now what was the point I missed? Is suddenly the fact that crywolf is in a scumteam with Ether conclusive evidence? Is the fact that you dismiss other players from your choice?

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

I bolded your reasons: You dismiss a view people because, and suddenly out of this comes with a process of elimination: a scumteam. Great reasoning.

then we have the lurking: another great reason

distancing between ether and cry: even better.

OMGUS. and now you say you have found scum.

And now you keep telling us that your case consists out of much more then only omgus, and that crywolf is most likely scum. While I think that vote from crywolf can be explained with crywolf as town, you say it is a good scumtell, and because the rest of the case doesn't deserve a vote, that OMGUS-point seems to carry your whole vote.

That is wrong, and the fact that you even now try to make it bigger then it is, is even worse. Call me the worst towny, at least I'm not scum, like you.

[mykonian]

yes, I want that half too.

[mykonian]

you disappoint me crywolf...

[mykonian]

Is that the half you had already written or the part you wrote in the last hour?

seems like you already know the answer...

[mykonian]

... I can quote mizzy's case against you also. I don't know how you get all that information out of that one sentence. It is true, you could look at the interactions between you and ether as distancing. Not that it matters, it is a weak argument anyway.

[mykonian]

Call me the worst towny, at least I'm not scum, like you.

I will expect an apology from you once I come up town and you're proved wrong.

If this goes on this way, I'll apoligize before the end of the day and vote crywolf. I thought her town because you were so scummy, and I can't believe you would both be scum. But crywolf isn't helping her own case here.

[mykonian]

it solves a problem if she is scum, if so, I apoligize mizzy.

and I had the feeling the votes were further away. I would have liked crywolf to continue to post her "thoughts". even if she is scum, you can get something from it.

[mykonian]

Mizzy, I retract my apoligies. I would like everyone to look at how you jumped on the crywolf wagon. While screaming OMGUS, you found the easy wagon.

vote mizzy

[mykonian]

Mizzy, I retract my apoligies. I would like everyone to look at how you jumped on the crywolf wagon. While screaming OMGUS, you found the easy wagon.

vote mizzy

You are so full of it. Look at the vote count, myk! I'm the first vote listed. There was one before me, Ether, and she was thinking of voting her when q21 hammered.

How can I jump on a wagon when I'm the first vote?

I don't care when you voted crywolf, I care about how you did it. That was what I reacted on then, that's what I react on now. You saw an opportunity to vote crywolf in that "omgus" vote, and you suddenly saw it as a universal scumtell (while it could have been done by a town player, and it proved to be done by a town player). You tell us that you have a big case to back it up: that case consists of "distancing with Ether", and lurking. That is not a great case. So scum, you voted crywolf for an "OMGUS" vote, that you treated as the best scumtell in the world, while you expressed early in the game that you were not convinced by standard scumtells. But when it becomes usefull, you suddenly are convinced by it.

Now you shift the attention to the timing. Yesterday, that was not my big problem with you, today it isn't. And you know that very well. It is simply the part that you can defend, even if I don't attack you with it.

[mykonian]

I don't care when you voted crywolf, I care about how you did it. That was what I reacted on then, that's what I react on now. You saw an opportunity to vote crywolf in that "omgus" vote, and you suddenly saw it as a universal scumtell (while it could have been done by a town player, and it proved to be done by a town player). You tell us that you have a big case to back it up: that case consists of "distancing with Ether", and lurking. That is not a great case. So scum, you voted crywolf for an "OMGUS" vote, that you treated as the best scumtell in the world, while you expressed early in the game that you were not convinced by standard scumtells. But when it becomes usefull, you suddenly are convinced by it.

Now you shift the attention to the timing. Yesterday, that was not my big problem with you, today it isn't. And you know that very well. It is simply the part that you can defend, even if I don't attack you with it.

You do need to care about both things. Timing and reasoning are extremely important. And how many times do I need to tell you that I don't believe in universal scumtells? You keep putting words in my mouth!

You're completely ignoring q21's actions. Even if you think I'm scum, you can't ignore that there are multiple scum in the game that ALL need to be lynched. No?

You do not believe in universal scumtells, but you manage to vote for an OMGUS vote. That's why I know you are scum. Crywolf simply made it easy for you to jump on.

But you are right. Today's lynch can hardly be different then q21. If GC wins it this way, he fully deserved it and I would hate myself for not lynching you earlier, but I think GC-scum unlikely. I won't vote q21 now: I want to talk first.

I don't like this massclaim stuff. We got two cops, and assuming q21 is scum, we still have 1 tomorrow (otherwise the game is just over). That means one confirmed, as I think the cops are quite confirmed. Massclaim is probably not usefull. Knowing there is a doctor doesn't help town much: doctor gets killed, or he doesn't and all it gives is WIFOM. If we have a doctor, the best thing we can do is lynching q21, and hope that the doctor chooses the right cop.

What GC says bothers me. The fact that there is likely a godfather makes cops way less usefull. We can't trust our inno's anymore, and that makes the game much less simple. More scumhunting and less trusting the cop (I know that makes a good game from a different viewpoint, but I wouldn't mind an easy win).

[mykonian]

bionic, that wasn't really needed. Even if you second guessed yourself, I already said I would vote in time. This is too short. Even if we wanted massclaim, you essentially chose for us. Why not wait a little longer?

[mykonian]

bionic, that wasn't really needed. Even if you second guessed yourself, I already said I would vote in time. This is too short. Even if we wanted massclaim, you essentially chose for us. Why not wait a little longer?

1. Q21 scummier than GC
2. Cut down discussion that could lead to night WIFOM

I am all for discussion, but when everybody has stated for 2 days how pro-town GC has been, extending the day is pointless. If this decision is correct, we should have a pretty easy win.

I agree on 1. and 2. could have been expected from you. You are probably right...

[mykonian]

you know where my vote will likely go. I'll just wait to make this time the day go on a little longer. I don't think this is that easy, and we need to talk it over good. If we go into auto-lynch mode, because we think we have won it already, we can make mistakes too easily, and give away a likely win.

bionic, would you also care to claim? I have thought things over and I'm not sure if this will be as easy as I first thought. After rereading, corporate has made it quite unable to get a read on him, and I don't have a clear read on you yet. There has been nothing that would confirm you are town. The only thing that kept me from thinking you could be scum was fuzzy's report.

[mykonian]

Why did you vote me?

Deduction leaves you and Mizzy as scum.

what leaves you out? Don't assume this too easily. Corporates play doesn't tell me a thing, and till now, I don't have a good read on you. Would you have a game where you were scum for me? The possibility of a godfather kind of makes fuzzy's inno's less certain.

[mykonian]

so, this game is not yet won, it is close to.

we have 5 persons, I think I can say two are confirmed: fuzzy and I.

From the other persons I think we have, seen the size of the game, a godfather and a goon left. That means fuzzy's report tells us who the goon of mizzy/empking is. But it doesn't tell us who the godfather is. So, fuzzy's report tells us one scum. But it can't find the godfather for us.

[mykonian]

Would you have a game where you were scum for me?

game as GF

game where I replaced but was only member of my mafia

These are my only 2 scum games. 1st link would be most relevant since I was actually GF there. If you plan to meta me, then you definitely need to check my games as town too.

I've seen you once as town, I never saw you as scum. That's why I only asked you for a scum game.

[mykonian]

Yes, now you say it, I remmber you did. That leaves empking and bionic.

Bionic, I see no reason for you to wait. I would like a claim ASAP.

[mykonian]

I'm sorry, didn't want to offend you. I think emp, if he is scum, has his claim ready, as he offered his claim. anyway, nothing will change there. You might have expected it, or you thought you would be save because of fuzzy's report. Anyway, you are, after fuzzy gives his report, 50% likely to be scum. That's why I would like a claim from you.

[mykonian]

Unfortunately, my investiagtion

isn't

going to tell us anything right now. I investigated GC.

did you seriously investigate:

the most protown-player in the game
that claimed the second (sane) cop in a game called cops and robbers.
that had a guilty on q21

?

you tell me what is going on here...

[mykonian]

but can you see fuzzy-scum?

it makes no sense. Why would he fake this way? If you are scum: he sacrificed corporate for a greater goal?

if you are town, he would be next... I don't know how often insane pleads work, but I doubt it here. And if corporate is town, why corporate guilty? He was not that towny anyway... So why not Ether? there was some suspicion against her, but nothing conclusive, and seen now, she was town.

I can't think clear anymore, probably made mistakes already. It is getting late...

[mykonian]

I disagree that I would be dead if GC was scum. Myko was more townie than me, and they almost invariably have a GF to carry them to the endgame.

Myko is someone with a guilty report on him. Way easier to get lynched than a cop claim (especially when the guilty report is given credence by the miller claim). GC-scum would need to eliminate anybody that could contradict one of his reports.

I'm completely losing you here. What is this about? (both fuzzy's and yours?)

[mykonian]

Bionic, my death wouldn't confirm a thing. It only says something about the link between you and fuzzy. That's because I had to explain what fuzzy's investigations meant. If I die, then fuzzy can still be scum: he actually got it wrong, only insanity could explain it. So that isn't completely right.

But you are right for the rest. Investigating GC makes no sense. GC scum would go for the cop. In any case the cop would be a target. Plus what I posted before: GC should never have been investigated by capable town.

[mykonian]

Honestly, I was really hoping I would get investigated last night but I didn't want to ask because people would have screamed "obvscum!"

and GF! true. I didn't forget you.

[mykonian]

I don't think we would have a godfather in this set-up because of the general theme. Godfather is really a mafioso role, and the cops and robbers theme goes against that. In fact, I would bet that both scum are just goons (because 3 random cops would really do more harm to the town winning than powerful scum could) but that's all set-up speculation.

You are saying that you and empking are the last scum? because in your previous post you didn't suspect fuzzy. Then you have also bionic as confirmed.

Or do you think I'm mafia with Empking?

[mykonian]

This is not even considering that both Fuzzy and you, myk, have been playing like bad townies the whole game (sorry, but it's true.)

Don't be sorry. I know I'm not the best towny around. The feelings I have on people have proved the last games quite random, so I'm more into following tells that I think good. The way you went after crywolf fitted in what I would think (and heard) scum does. You blew up a case on crywolf based on the word OMGUS (I have pointed out that it was little more, and that all was based on OMGUS), and the worst thing is, it worked. While you were the one to tell me you wouldn't blindly follow scumtells (and voting someone almost solely on OMGUS (the rest was not that good) defenitely falls under "blindly following scumtells")

That was my case, that is my case, so don't say I don't have one.

About the godfather business: During the night I assumed we had two cops: fuzzy and GC. even with a miller (that could be claimed in the first post), this seems overpowered for town. The cop is such a powerful role

that post 1084

bionic, that wasn't really needed. Even if you second guessed yourself, I already said I would vote in time. This is too short. Even if we wanted massclaim, you essentially chose for us. Why not wait a little longer?

now I´m suddenly reluctant to vote q21? Now my previous post, 1080, you also misread that one?

Today's lynch can hardly be different then q21. If GC wins it this way, he fully deserved it and I would hate myself for not lynching you earlier, but I think GC-scum unlikely. I won't vote q21 now: I want to talk first.

when bionic hammers three posts later, I react on that. I felt there was no haste. But you twist my words telling that I didn't want q21 lynched. That is a lie.

So to your damning evidence:

If I HAD to choose between Bio and you, then I would have to pick

you

because:

1) Fuzzy's last two investigations are highly suspect. If he is indeed scum, then it would make since that you would be scum with him, one of you "clearing" the other.
2) Yesterday, you went after me with a vote before you went after obvscum q21.
3) Fuzzy seemed displeased that q21 got lynched, as did you in posts 1083 and 1084.
4) You have been constantly trying to get me mislynched with no case, you friggin' hypocrite.
5) You have been attempting to throw doubt on Bionic here, too, which is completely retarded because he's as pro-town as GC was.
6) You've been talking about a GF a whole shit load, saying other people could be one if they come up town on an investigation. That makes me think that you really do know that one exists.

Wow, that's actually a whole lot more damning than I thought it would be. And just look at the end of yesterday:

Vote Count:
q21 - 4 (Fuzzyman, Mizzy, Green Crayons, bionicchop2)
Green Crayons - 1 (q21)

Not Voting: (2)
mykonian
Empking

1) I reacted on fuzzy, so if fuzzy is scum, he would have had insanity as a safe excuse. Nothing from the interaction between us points at me being scum, as I only helped explain fuzzy's "result". There is nothing that points at a scum-link there.
2) to me, he was obvious on the point GC counterclaimed. Before that, you were the one to start the wagon on cry, he finished it. Both were wrong.
3) I was displeased on the fact that bionic didn't take it calm, like I wanted to take it in post 1080. We had caugth scum, we didn't need to lynch him fast. If we wanted something to discuss, now it couldn't be done anymore. I posted that I wanted a q21 lynch in 1080, don't say I didn't want it.
4) I have a case, and I posted it more then once.
5) I have said then, that I could have expected it from Bionic. In my newby game he was also concerned with such things. I did want an explanation from him though, as it would not have been my choice.
6) I thought it likely, if we had 2 cops. That was the assumption I was acting from (BTW the title is a point in fuzzy's favor, isn't it?).

and that votecount doesn't tell intentions. I had spoken out the intention to vote q21, I only wanted to wait for people to say something. You are again trying to prove something the wrong way, this is no evidence.

you are also contradicting yourself: first you said fuzzy was likely a real cop. Now 1 point against me assumes fuzzy is scum, and that would make me scum also (and that is not true)

also, you were the one that said you thought it likely that there was no godfather, and here you attack me for "knowing" there is a godfather. I don't know a thing, I only assume things and reason from that.

Have you found another target? because this case is absolutely rubbish, it proves nothing. There is nothing from me that would confirm fuzzy, and fuzzy could never confirm me.

vote mizzy

[mykonian]

Myk, invote NOW. Only three votes are needed for a lynch and we have proved that Emp is scum because he wasn't quicklynched by scum. If I get quicklynched, we LOSE.

Vote: Emp

ok, I hate it when you are right, but

unvote

. I probably let my emotions rule too much, but I can't see how town could ever come up with such a case, and call me bad town.

and I don't see the point where Emp could be quicklynched, bionic unvoted fast. You are the only vote on him now, I think. And bionic, you are right, I should have waited for claims. Anyway, you know what I'm thinking.

[mykonian]

Godfathers from a flavor perspective I don't think would work well here, and I don't think we have 3 scum.

Bio has acted 100% pro-town ever since he joined the game. Everything he says reeks of towniness. What has he done that's even remotely suspect?

true, have you read the game where he was godfather? I was afraid before, as I had seen bionic's town play, that it would be very similar to his scum play, as it would be accepted if his reasons found scum, and his reasoning would seem good on town and scum. I was trying to find a tell in it, but some things (like attacking your partner from early on) can't be found here.

I agree though, if fuzzy is scum, I would think it very unlikely that bio is scum: Bio was fuzzy's guilty, until I proved it to be false.

[mykonian]

First thing that we can get out of the claims (and I think the only one) is that fuzzy is likely cop, seen the title.

mizzy, how did you know?

[mykonian]

12 people:

1 miller
2 cops (of different sanity)
2 mafia?

town seems a little overpowered...

[mykonian]

everyone has:

myk: miller
emp, mizzy, bionic: patron
fuzzy: insane cop.

so what is your speculation?

[mykonian]

mizzy, do you have anything else against me then that I attack you?

[mykonian]

mizzy, do you have anything else against me then that I attack you?

You mean, other than the list I gave earlier? No. I'm not attacking you, though, nor am I planning on voting you, so why does it matter?

I think I pointed out why most of the list does not point at me being scum, and that most of it sounds fantastic. This can have two reasons:

a you have a gut feeling about me (might be induced by my attacks on you)
b you are scum trying to: pressure me/making people suspicious of me/trying if there was a mislynch possible that way.

I hope I didn't insult you too much with the question asked that way, I wanted to know what caused that list on me.

[mykonian]

not taking into account that I have said the same things and played the same way in all my games, regardless of alignment.

and how I am to know, I see something scummy, I react on it.

Long story short, you are not always right

quite often I'm not. the accusations I make are right, they don't point at scum. Blame it to underdeveloped gut...

At this point, I don't give a shit who gets lynched, I just want the game to

end

. This is my last game for the foreseeable future on this site and I am more than ready to put the frustration and annoyance behind me.

I hope I didn't cause that...

[mykonian]

and how I am to know, I see something scummy, I react on it.

I have told you so, and a lot of my games are up on my wiki entry for you to look at. The information is there for you to find if you wanted to. Half the shit you think is scummy about me are just personal beliefs that I hold to in every game.

ok, more then half of the shit I think you scummy of is the way you attacked crywolf after crywolf "OMGUS" voted. While you have stated that your personal believe was that scumtells weren't solid evidence.

[mykonian]

well, I think I have already stated why I would like to

vote mizzy

. Nothing today has made it any better for her, maybe only worse. Probably empking is her buddy, but we shouldn't auto-lynch tomorrow: there is nothing that tells us that bionic isn't the GF. If mizzy comes up GF, I think it must be empking (2 GF's seem weird)

[mykonian]

or the other two are just inactive, or they still hope the other towny messes up and gives them the opportunity for an other wagon.

[mykonian]

that's why one of them must be town. Scum waits for the towny to make a decision. That's what I said.

[mykonian]

that's also a way to say it...

[mykonian]

Unvote

Vote: Mizzy

you and fuzzy? or was bionic GF?

[mykonian]

That is not good for my heart (really bionic, if you turn out to be a GF after this, I will stand behind a corner waiting with an axe)

[mykonian]

Frustrating, but fun.

I think the game was balanced, though with any other title it would run the risk of the cops counterclaiming each other and getting lynched in succession. (Had fun WIFOMing that one. "Cops and Robbers" would be a great name for a 10:2 vanilla setup, but of course I couldn't say that out loud without admitting my own role.) I do think the flavor (and role reveals, specifically "Robber") clash with the definition of mini normal, though.

I like how I read Crywolf correctly and got 2/3rds of the scumgroup right, all based on assuming Mizzyscum. After Crywolf was lynched as town, I was planning to vote Empking the next day and demand that the town choose between him and me in LyLo. I figured Mizzy and q21 could get themselves lynched without my help. ¬_¬

Apparently I give off cop vibes without realizing it--this is the second time I've been nightkilled because scum thought I was dropping unsubtle breadcrumbs. Awesome.

After dying, I learned the scumgroup from Charter and immediately went out on my own to secure the QuickTopic. I was impatient about that; when Mykonian hadn't responded the next day, I assumed that he hadn't picked up my PM at all and went to q21 instead, since he was online. Mykonian, why didn't you answer?

It bugs me in retrospect how obvious Mykonian was, aside from that damn claim...how if I'd been more active in the first month of that day, I might have run him to a less graceful claim...

how I'm not actually

supposed

to think like that 'cause forcing vanilla claims is suboptimal play.

I was on the edge of my seat when he placed that Mizvote; from where I was sitting, it was an obvspeedlynch. I like to think it would have given me some pause in Bionic's shoes. I'm almost certain that I'd have switched to Empking at that point, but I'm not sure what I'd have done the next day.

And yeah. Fuzzyman, what the hell don't do that again.

robber=mafia to me. he used basic roles, and I think it was clear what the target was. Charter used the essence of a normal game.

I didn't respond, because I didn't know how to react. I didn't know if I was allowed to talk, so I asked charter first. after his reaction that I could give it to you if I wanted, I send it.

and about my play: you are so right. I was surprised Bionic didn't catch me just based on meta. Bionic, do you see similarities with my attack on mizzy and the attack on the cop in our newby? And because I thought you had a guilty on me, and that you tried to lynch me without claiming, I set up the miller claim. When fuzzy claimed, I thought it could not hurt to confirm fuzzy and corporate, and it was indeed a very nice time to claim. I was that, or be lynched in 2-3 rounds.

Could you point out what the most obvious scumtells are that you can find now? I know I pushed the case on mizzy a bit too far, that was unnatural, and that was I think the last pages the thing you could have caught me on, but what were the things that were very wrong?

With bionics vote, you are also very right. I didn't know how to react on that, never been in that situation before, and I thought that if I waited, while I had been so clear that my intention was to vote mizzy was even more scummy. Help on that situation would be appreciated.

@mizzy. I'm sorry. You had often a good feeling when something wasn't right (the way I tried to put the GF in everyones mind), but you had trouble to express your feelings to the rest of the town. Sometimes because you gave the wrong (and thereby sometimes contradicting) causes for it. But you were right about who scum was (most of the time) and you had seen it right that there was likely no godfather. If you had put these thoughts together, and looked at the rest of my play (claim excluded), you would have been very right. Even Ether wasn't that close.

[mykonian]

if emp want's to show the QT, I wouldn't mind.

[mykonian]

you did. Why investigate yourself? To know you were insane?

you already knew you were: if I was a miller, then you were insane, if I lied, I was scum and you were insane.

if I was a GF, I was insane to ruin my cover. So that one didn't make sense.

then on GC, the most protown player, that also claimed cop (and had to fake the right result), why would you investigate him? if he was scum, he would kill the claimed cop (you, so investigation was useless) if he was town, the other scum would kill one cop. (you, or GC, both times the investigation would give no answers)

on the other side, if you investigated empking/mizzy, and assuming there were no two GF (and that seems reasonable) with the believable claims, you would have gotten empking for sure. I was reasoning from the start of day two that way.

[mykonian]

@Ether, thank you. See if I can evade that kind of problems next time. It is quite a pattern in this game. While I think I could have posted such a thing against fuzzy right on the start of a day as town, just to start the day well, the way I handled crywolf and mizzy was unnatural. I don't actually know what I would do as town. Next time I'll try to do it different.

[mykonian]

Just nominated Myk for best role claim scummy. I know its still early in the year for scummy contention, but I think it was good enough to deserve the nomination - someone go second it.

wow, thank you!

GC, I think on the one side, you are a little harsh for yourself. You didn't do everything wrong. You made the pool of possible lynch targets smaller by your good play. You did get the information out of that too. You didn't always make the best decisions based on that, but that is something the rest of the town has to do with you. It was not only you that stopped suspecting Empking, after fuzzy stopped, it was suddenly gone. I really didn't understand. But saying that it was your fault is a bit too much I think.

[mykonian]

I really want to nominate Fuzzyman for a title referencing his sanity, but I get the feeling from his last post here that he wouldn't actually accept it. Discuss.

bit negative, isn't it? and I hope he doesn't become known for it. (unless I'm more often scum then town )

[mykonian]

The annoying thing is that I can't think of anything wittier than "Insane Cop." ¬_¬

Shit, and I almost forgot:

*digs up Canary's corpse*

*beats Empking over the head with it*

but do you think it will get better then that? I think it fits very well for this situation.