Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Artifex]

Hi!

vote Xdaamno

for already piling on BSG. Plus, I like penguins.

[Artifex]

Heh. You know, thats an awfully innocent kitten avatar you've got there...dare I say

too

innocent? Dont think Ill be fooled so easily...

[Artifex]

Maybe that last question was meant to be for me? Well- if so- I dont actually think its scummy to make any kind of random vote. I just look for things that can get a response out of people the random voting stage, so that I can get a better idea of how they post.

Did I think it was likely that Xdaamno was really starting a bandwagon? Yeah, not so much. But if he had flown off the handle with some hysterical accusations and defensiveness, then I would be looking at him more closely for real. I thought responded pretty well, actually, because I thought that 'easy target' complaint was a joke.

[Artifex]

Wait, wait- that's all mixed up.

Artem is not voting for me because I voted for BSG- Artem is voting for me because I voted for Xdaamno who voted for BSG. Yikes, maybe everyone should call me Jane or something.

Why pick Xdaamno over alvinz who also voted BSG after lynx?
Now that I've got my obligatory pointless scumhunting questioning out of the way...

??Why would I pick alvin? He couldnt have known another person would vote for BSG when he did...

I see what you're up do. I disagree about putting someone at L-2 being scummy. I also note how you wait to put BSG at L-3 and then say that putting someone at L-2 being scummy.

I agree that's a pretty obvious ploy when Panzerjager flat out spelled it out like that, but did you actually have to go and do it? Let me put it to you another way: what do you hope to gain by your vote?

[Artifex]

And I don't see the WIFOM.

Isnt the WIFOM in question that Panzer said it was scummy to put someone at L-2, then Charter immediately did it as a response to what Panzer said...no scum would open themselves up to scrutiny like that. Or would they, knowing we'd all think that? Or *switching wine, switching wine*

I can see two reasons why Charter put me at L-2. But I'll let Charter respond to this first.

Okay, I'll wait a bit as well for an answer cause I honestly dont see it. I dont think putting someone at L-2 is scummy. But I do find doing it basically as a 'so there' to be reckless and weird. But both you and charter have implied theres something else going on, so Ill hold off on my opinion of this for a bit.

[Artifex]

Also, why does it feel like there's only five of us playing?

I count more than five contributing players, but I agree that I'd like to hear more from a few of the quiet members like alvin and lowell.

I also think you feel that way due to this:

Time will tell.

I can see two reasons why Charter put me at L-2. But I'll let Charter respond to this first.

But I do find doing it basically as a 'so there' to be reckless and weird. But both you and charter have implied theres something else going on, so Ill hold off on my opinion of this for a bit.

charter deserves a FoS, because of the WIFOM. There is, however, a reason for a townie to do what he did. So, yes, let's have charter respond to it first.

I can see two reasons why Charter would put me at L-2. And none of those reasons includes WIFOM. I'm waiting for him to tell his reason. From that I'll look if it was scummy or not.

A bunch of us are waiting for Charters next post to provide some insight into his vote. When I went back to find his last post, I realized it actually hasnt been that long at all (I must be suffering from 'watched pot' syndrome) so I'd say he's due some more time to pop back in.

In any case I'll be checking in tonight after class and, if Charters still not around I'll stop waiting and start looking at other players too.

[Artifex]

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Okay really quick before I go, why to all four people mentioned.

[Artifex]

Llama, I managed to catch your first PM in that brief window, but I dont know if the site ate my response back, so I'm just checking in. Hope everyone's still around!

[Artifex]

From the townie's point of view, it's a little difficult to tell who constitutes an easy target. The best we can do is watch for the reasons player A jumps all over player B. For example, during the random voting stage, Artifex voted for Xdaamno because he put a third vote on BSG. At the time, putting a third vote on somebody was the most unusual (scummiest?) thing, so I called Artifex out for jumping on an easy target.

Yeah, I get the thought process here. I did look for the 'most unusual (scummiest?) thing' when trying to formulate a vote. This is my third mafia game (though the first on this site) and the game moves faster out of RVS when there's actually something to talk about. I was able to start forming opinions on Xdammno (and you, and everyone else who commented really) pretty quickly. And you know, theres always a chance that the action you're calling out looks scummy cause it is scummy, though even I thought that was unlikely.

That said,

unvote

. Nothing in his reaction prompted me to think of Xdammno as scummy.

If you claimed scum, I would FoS you for WIFOM to begin with.

Id outright vote for you. Im trying to think of a reason why vanilla town would claim scum and failing, whereas I can think of a few off the wall possibilities that scum would actually do so. To try and reign this hypothetical back to the topic, I think thats a pretty extreme example of 'easy target' and not really what was happening in this case.

[Artifex]

Okay, before the crash I said I'd focus on other players than charter and since he's on vacation anyway-

Artem- It seems to me that the two things that have Artem under fire are 1) the me/Xdaamno/'easy target' comment and 2) the FOS of charter. Ive already said I get the easy target thought process, and him questioning it seems more pro town to me than scum looking for a way to point the finger elsewhere. The FOS/charter issue- I think Lynx summed up the argument about this pretty succinctly:

I'm not a huge fan of the Artem L-2 vote from charter, but I do find it interesting that Artem didn't vote. There's no reason not to vote. I think Artem is being careful not to draw the same attention he received from his first vote.

This is a possibility, but I think that artem's answer is at least as likely to be true:

charter deserves a FoS, because of the WIFOM. There is, however, a reason for a townie to do what he did. So, yes, let's have charter respond to it first.

A lot of us are waiting for some more information on charter. I'll be interested to see what happens next here.

Summation: I may have questions but...not really feeling a scum vibe here.

alvinz95- impossible to tell. Frustrating, but will have to wait until he shows up or gets replaced.

Master Ruck (Aoshi)- Thankfully, Master Ruck replaced so early that I'm not really having to take Aoshi into account (Welcome, BTW!). Ruck has started out strong, with some scum hunting type questions. I'm still looking for some actual opinions from you though, both on players and events in the game. town.

Danchaofan- I find most of Danchaofans posts to be based on clarifying issues that seem to be bothering him. Upon a reread, I realize they're mostly focused on Artem. A question for you: your vote for Artem is from RVS- is it still a random vote? What are your thoughts on other players.

Lunar_Tick- two jokes on the front page. That's all I've got. The second joke, about charter's FOS, had a (?)semi-serious side to it and got quoted and requoted so much that I had the sense Lunar was a more active player than hes been:

Are you actually defeating your own argument with a counterclaim of "but it's under Panzer's name"? Surely one oughtn't use ones fos so lightly, neh?

Considering I know post crash that you've checked in with our mod, I'm wondering why you're so quiet. It feels like you stirred things up a bit and then sat back to watch. I'm pointing a

pinky-FOS at Lunar

Lowell- A vote for me without explanation, then a post with some opinions on four player's scum factor without explanation. I actually like the having opinions part, because as I've reread the game I've noticed we have some players who are hesitant to do that. But it doesnt help to know what you think if there's no explanation why. I'll buy needing time to reread for now, but I'd still like you to offer those four lines of reasoning when you come back.

BSG- I think his answer to why he didnt panic when he was at L-2 is very pro town:

Besides, why should I be afraid for the votes made against me? Most of them were random votes. If town lynch a player with many random votes, then there's something strange going on with the wagon. If I'm lynched with most of these votes, it will only give information. So I don't see why I should be bothered.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the other players.

Lynx The Antithesis- His actions seem pretty clear and consistent to me, and he's pointed out inconsistencies (or perceived inconsistencies anyway) in several players thus far. Beyond that I dont have much of a read yet.

charter- I feel like I'm in limbo in regards to charter. Ive pretty much said what I still feel already, which is summed up in post 56. I'm holding my peace with this one until he gets back.

Panzerjager- not much in the beginning beyond some jokes and then the initial statement in post 29 that set charter off. Recently some good questions asked of multiple players. You're someone else I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about players.

Xdaamno- He kept his cool when I singled him out, which I found promising. An initial suspicion of Artem back in post 21 that you've since recanted a couple of times. So what are your current thoughts on the game. You're still voting BSG, is that current or still random?

[Artifex]

One of your main suspicions of me is 'buddying/banter' that 'seems to keep happening' and your evidence of this is

38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

?? I must have a completely different definition of banter than you. BSG said she didnt see the WIFOM, but I did and I pointed it out, and Artem said he and I were talking about the same thing. I dont see how we're bantering with each other. I also dont really see how this 'seems to keep happening' if you're basing it off of 3 posts over half the game ago.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

I also feel there was something at play during the BSG buildup- there were a lot of players involved in it, and I'm still waiting for explanations from a few of those players. My intentions regarding the BSG voting were centered around Xdaamno, and not BSG.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

All questions of whether it's suspicious or not that he did this aside- how is it actively

townish

to take someone up to L-2 'just to see what happens'?

[Artifex]

I fail to see how me doing it right after you said it would be scummy is any more WIFOMy than if I did it a while later either.

Well, if this statement is true

C) it was coincidental, that was my last post before I was leaving for a while.

then I agree with you, and would find nothing suspicious about your actions at all. I just find it really difficult to believe that Panzers actions and yours were unconnected...At the time it was my very strong impression that you had deliberately voted BSG because of what Panzer had said.

@Panzer- is the 'him' in question Charter? Because unless I've really really misunderstood, Charter is indeed voting for artem and not Lowell.

[Artifex]

I went back to go look at those posts, and Charter I dont see how theres any way it was 'coincidental'- you prefaced your vote with the relevant "I think L-2 would be scummy" quote from Panzer and then said:

I see what you're up do. I disagree about putting someone at L-2 being scummy. I also note how you wait to put BSG at L-3 and then say that putting someone at L-2 being scummy.
unvote, vote BSG

I dont see how you can say the idea of it being WIFOM or scummy never occurred to you- it's clear that you were aware of what Panzer was saying and were in fact responding to it.

[Artifex]

Yow, I wish I hadnt gone to bed, cause everything got crazier all of a sudden.

I dont know what to make of Xdaamno's post at all. I cant imagine a good reason to hammer without even letting Artem get a chance to claim. And idea idea that we were able to pull back from this only because he forgot to unvote...it seems maybe too good to be true. I too will wait to hear from Xdaamno: did you deliberately vote before letting Artem even speak up? Did you know that you hadnt unvoted: if so, why the attempt to throw the game into chaos?

As for Darox's claim, I find it incredibly suspicious. So, basically, the only value of that role was that mafia might off you and get offed themselves...and you've thrown that away with your first substantive post. And now you've left yourself in a position that tries to make you untouchable by both town and scum alike? ...this smacks of a seperate win condition to me, if not an outright false claim.

It may not be fair to judge Darox for Lunar Ticks actions in the game, but I was already suspicious of the player you stepped in for for clearly being present (even checking in quickly after the bluehost crash thing) but not contributing at all. I didnt know what to make of the fact that right after I FOSed him he requested replacement- the two may not be connected, but you bet the thought has crossed my mind that they are. And now you come in with a claim that intends to leave you invulnerable, while taking away the one valuable aspect to town about it?

Vote: Darox

[Artifex]

(Did anyone actually think my answer to that question would have been "Yes"? If you're going to attack me for the hammer do so for a "lying" read, rather than the "opportunistic" nature of the vote itself.)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[Artifex]

But not scummish enough to vote for him? That's a genuine question- you're expending a lot of energy battling Lynx over this, so why are you not voting for him if hes pinging your scumdar so hard?

[Artifex]

First, the claim. I'm not going to debate how likely the mod is to include a PGO because thats just playing with mod WIFOM and I already know the answer.

This is the type of thing that sounds reasonable on the surface, but when I break it down it doesnt play for me. Every time someone does a roleclaim, theres a chance they're lying, right? So you look for things that could help you figure out if the claim is false. One of those things is how likely the role existing would be. Im not seeing the WIFOM there. And you wont debate, because you 'already know the answer'? Well

I dont

- so I think I will keep discussing this roleclaim.

Even if there is only one other power role out there it still gives equal probability of being targeted by town or scum, and in the likely event there is more the chance of killing town powers increases. The small chance of taking a scum with me isn't worth that in my opinion.

I admit now: I've never been or played with this type of role before. But at the very least this seems to be a bad decision to me. What was making you think that you were likely to be targeted by a doc or investigator when you claimed? Your predecessor was barely on the radar when you switched in. This is why I worry that you have a separate win condition- because then I would completely understand why youd claim right away, so as to increase your chances of being untouched by any side or power role.

[Artifex]

Also, ergh... I hate using capitals on a letter superfluously, it makes it sound like we're dealing with some kind of currency here.

Urgh indeed. You know how you were asking about that elitist thing earlier? This is a classic example of that, BTW. I'm not even saying I disagree with you, but I dont think Id ever point it out, knowing that I too am subject to the occasional grammatical quirk.

Sorry, anyway, on topic. What I find funny about this whole thing is that Rucks idea of what the 'saved' wording meant was better for Xda then admitting he what he really meant. I now dont know what to think- its hard to think you didnt know you were attempting to lynch someone, especially since in your hammer-that-wasnt you called artem 'good to lynch'. But you were honest enough to clarify the wording in your 'saved' post, even though its somewhat detrimental to you. I guess what I'm saying is I could buy the idea you didnt know what you were doing.

As for this conversation you're having with Lynx, with respect I think you're picking apart his words. Look at it this way: going with the theory youre telling the truth, you almost accidentally lynched a player. On top of this, youve revealed you were attempting a pressure vote- so now I have no clue if youve ever found anyone suspicious in this game at all. That's what I think is meant by 'value' and 'contribution'. Its frustrating, because you say that you dont naturally get interested in something that doesnt involve you, but the attempts being made to involve you have gotten derailed for one reason or another. What does someone have to say to get you 'involved' anyway? Cant the fact that youre in the game motivate you to involve yourself?

[Artifex]

@Everyone voting for someone with just one vote, why? And if the answer is "I think they're scum" or "They need pressure" then why are you not making a case or pressuring? I don't remember any of the reasons you all are voting alone for someone, so I get the impression you're just trying to not call attention to yourself and aren't actually scumhunting.

I made my case in 127 and then again in 170. I'll post 127 againto save some backtracking-

Yow, I wish I hadnt gone to bed, cause everything got crazier all of a sudden.

I dont know what to make of Xdaamno's post at all. I cant imagine a good reason to hammer without even letting Artem get a chance to claim. And idea idea that we were able to pull back from this only because he forgot to unvote...it seems maybe too good to be true. I too will wait to hear from Xdaamno: did you deliberately vote before letting Artem even speak up? Did you know that you hadnt unvoted: if so, why the attempt to throw the game into chaos?

As for Darox's claim, I find it incredibly suspicious. So, basically, the only value of that role was that mafia might off you and get offed themselves...and you've thrown that away with your first substantive post. And now you've left yourself in a position that tries to make you untouchable by both town and scum alike? ...this smacks of a seperate win condition to me, if not an outright false claim.

It may not be fair to judge Darox for Lunar Ticks actions in the game, but I was already suspicious of the player you stepped in for for clearly being present (even checking in quickly after the bluehost crash thing) but not contributing at all. I didnt know what to make of the fact that right after I FOSed him he requested replacement- the two may not be connected, but you bet the thought has crossed my mind that they are. And now you come in with a claim that intends to leave you invulnerable, while taking away the one valuable aspect to town about it? Vote: Darox

@Charter- You seem to be coming from the viewpoint that Darox is town who made a bad decision by claiming. I think he's not town, and made what was probably a very savvy decision as everyone seems to be going along with it.

@Lowell- I also have begun to think Darox's claim is genuine- but I dont believe he's sharing everything about it with us.

I realize my main concern about Darox is not necessarily something that needs be addressed day one. My next scummiest suspect is Xdaamno, for his unsatisfying explanations for the hammer-that-wasnt and also for what I wrote about it 123. I would be willing to lynch Darox or Xadaamno.

[Artifex]

Okay, if that was too short for you I'll expand:

-120. Xda says that the original Artem attack is 'BS', but that Artem shouldnt need Xda to tell him that. Xda's done some rereading and says Artem is a good lynch.
-121. Xda says that he was saved from accidentally lynching Artem, because he didnt know Artem was L-1. Implies that he finds the wagon suspicous, and is going to reread again to figure out why.
That was Sunday. On Monday, Xda pops in once with 151. There is no read or results mentioned yet.
-151- Xda assures Lynx that he does pay attention to this game, and missing a few days has made it difficult to get back into the game which is where his mistake came from.
On Tuesday comes 183- Xda clarifies that he didnt actually think Artem was a good lynch but was pressure voting. Expresses offense that Lynx and DCF dont think he's giving a case on anything.
But you're not- you've been promising a re-read and implying that when you did so, you would come back with a case regarding something you found suspicious ie the Artem wagon. But you havent done that, so they're right to call you out on it.
-188- Xda says he finds it difficult to get back into a discussion where he's not involved or being attacked. But before, you said you found it difficult to get back into the game cause youd been out for a few days. So yeah, couple that with the defensive attitudes of 183 and 188 and it starts to feel like you're making up excuses.
-192- You point out that the two re-reads I've referenced above refer to you re-reading for two separate things, but you seem to be missing the point which is that you havent done them.
-193- Xda says his Artem vote for BOTH scumminess and pressure. To my mind this is a direct contradiction to everything youve said in the posts I've outlined above.
-197- Lynx flat out asks Xda for his reasoning behind his votes. 198, 201, 204, 205- posts that cover some game theory and grammatical questions, but what you dont do is answer that question. In 208 Xda admits he cant remember where his original 'vibes' off of Artem came from and that he'd have to do a re-read. Color me skeptical that this will happen at this point....

The more I looked at these exchanges the more evasive they seemed to me. It's like you can't give a straight answer, or provide any insight into anyone you're ACTUALLY gunning for. After Darox, I find this behavior the most suspicious in the game.

On preview: Xda, oh I definitely think you've defended yourself all over the place. My issue is that I cant see where you've done anything else.

[Artifex]

@Ruck- Please don't make this kind of argument, for two reasons. The first is that I get very tense and wary whenever someone makes a play for my sympathies, because this by definition is a game where I have no idea if you're really on my side. The second is- assuming you arent putting a show- there's really no need for you to feel that way, I promise. It would really suck to lose a consistent poster and avid follower of the game, plus the farther we get into this the harder it is to get replacements at all, let alone quality ones. Anyway, the honest to God best way to learn how to play is to see a game through to its end, even if you get lynched or nightkilled or survive it all, whatever. And you know, even if you die you can still win if your side ends up on top, remember that.

@Xda- Okay, it will actually be easier to do as you ask me to- analyze your alignment- if you follow through and post some results on scumhunting, so I'll be waiting.

[Artifex]

What "results" are you expecting? I suggested that I would address my bandwagon, which is easy as I know the ultimate question of my alignment anyway. Scumhunting is something I do not wish to do by request.

Why the heck should you have to be requested to do that, anyway? You should just be doing it by nature of being a player in this game. Look, maybe the misunderstanding is mine, but I was responding to what you wrote in this post:

OK, I certainly admit to that. I'm being lazy, in that I'm going for the easy arguments to make (that is, those for which I know the ultimate answer beforehand). I'm still slacking at my second job. Several of your points, such as the below, fall under this general area. If you're going to be analyzing me, we should stick to my alignment.

Which I thought was directed towards me, seeing as how you quote me in the post (although you have the quote attributed to Artem). Isnt the second job youre referring to in this post scumhunting? And the best way I know how to fulfull your request- to analyze your alignment- is to read posts where you do more than the type of posts you've been making.

[Artifex]

Wait, what?!

According to this, I am the person you find suspicious above all, and you would be willing to lynch me, but the reasons for this are "not something that needs to be addressed". Are you joking or something? I really shouldn't have to point out why saying "I think this guy should be lynched, I'll tell you why after we lynch him" is wrong.

It is interesting how if you take a few words out of a quote you can change its meaning entirely, isnt it? I dont get how you missed them, seeing as how you bolded them for me and everything. I said, "needs to be addressed day one." If I really have to spell this out further, I will: I dont think you have the same win condition as the rest of town. This issue MUST be addressed the closer we get to the end of the game. But that doesnt necessarily make you the right person to be lynched on day one. This is worlds away from the meaning you have ascribed my words. Did you genuinely not understand this?

I think we should hear about these mysterious concerns. After all, they seem to be so convincing that they still trump your documented thoughts on Xdaamno, so they must be impressive.

I'll say it again: I did not vote for you without making clear my concerns. I have stated in more than one posts my reasons:

As for Darox's claim, I find it incredibly suspicious. So, basically, the only value of that role was that mafia might off you and get offed themselves...and you've thrown that away with your first substantive post. And now you've left yourself in a position that tries to make you untouchable by both town and scum alike? ...this smacks of a seperate win condition to me, if not an outright false claim.

It may not be fair to judge Darox for Lunar Ticks actions in the game, but I was already suspicious of the player you stepped in for for clearly being present (even checking in quickly after the bluehost crash thing) but not contributing at all. I didnt know what to make of the fact that right after I FOSed him he requested replacement- the two may not be connected, but you bet the thought has crossed my mind that they are. And now you come in with a claim that intends to leave you invulnerable, while taking away the one valuable aspect to town about it? Vote: Darox

First, the claim. I'm not going to debate how likely the mod is to include a PGO because thats just playing with mod WIFOM and I already know the answer.

This is the type of thing that sounds reasonable on the surface, but when I break it down it doesnt play for me. Every time someone does a roleclaim, theres a chance they're lying, right? So you look for things that could help you figure out if the claim is false. One of those things is how likely the role existing would be. Im not seeing the WIFOM there. And you wont debate, because you 'already know the answer'? Well

I dont

- so I think I will keep discussing this roleclaim.

Even if there is only one other power role out there it still gives equal probability of being targeted by town or scum, and in the likely event there is more the chance of killing town powers increases. The small chance of taking a scum with me isn't worth that in my opinion.

I admit now: I've never been or played with this type of role before. But at the very least this seems to be a bad decision to me. What was making you think that you were likely to be targeted by a doc or investigator when you claimed? Your predecessor was barely on the radar when you switched in. This is why I worry that you have a separate win condition- because then I would completely understand why youd claim right away, so as to increase your chances of being untouched by any side or power role.

I can't decide if you just didnt reread thoroughly or if this is a more deliberate misunderstanding.

[Artifex]

[OOG]Lynx, in your second post you sounded like you didnt know what it was gonna look like- if you hit preview before send you can see what your posts will look like. In this case, you're missing a "/" to end the quote by Darox. Honestly though I dont even know if you need to repost his stuff at all, since you seem to be responding to the post as a whole and not specific parts.[/OOG]

[Artifex]

CBA. I place my own happiness above winning. I believe several people have 'forgotten' similar promises.

What would make you unhappy about doing what he's asking you to do? You said you voted him out of pressure, and he wants to know your thoughts on how he acted under that pressure. Looking back over the last few pages, all of your responses of have that CBA tone. Why?

With a deadline approaching we should really up the discussion for these next few days.

QFT.
Xda has not done a great job of changing my mind with his responses, and as of right now I don't have a problem voting for him. But then the day will be over and, c'mon, do we really not have anything else to talk about? I'm concerned by a couple of the votes that have been cast, for example. I wish Tubby had explained his vote, for example, before his V/LA, seeing as how it was L-1 and everything. And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

I think now would be a great time to hear where everyone stands. Those voting for Xdaamno: are you still confident in your vote? Those not voting for him: Unconvinced? Why and what would you rather do instead?

[Artifex]

Wait, who Sarnath'd?

charter's the only person whos making a real case against Panzer. I have questions about some of the points you're making, but you might have something here. In any case Im interested to see how Panzer responds to them.

A question for you though:

And from what I gathered, Xdaamo threatened to self hammer to ensure a lynch.

Am I completely misreading this, or are you saying that Xda looks more town because he's willing to self hammer rather than have a no lynch? Because- I'm pretty sure there's only a no lynch in cases of ties, right? I've been thinking his self hammer promise was a nulltell because the player with the most votes gets lynched no matter what.

[Artifex]

You continue to view his actions as scummy, but it doesn't make sense that you're not getting worked up over my recent actions. If you actually think Xdaamo is scum, then you surely must think I am as well because I'm clearly trying to lynch someone besides him today.

Nonsense- how is it a certainty that if Xda is scum= charter scum because youre making a case against another player in the last week before a deadline? If youd suddenly thrown this out there in the last 24 hours or so Id definitely be more suspicious than I am now. Right now I could easily go either way on you.

[Artifex]

MR, afatchic, and artifex.

FoS all of you. Pick a wagon, I don't believe that you don't find either of Panzer or Xdaamo scummy.

Dude. I already 'picked my wagon'- I said pages ago I'm willing to vote Xda, and I said why too. I'm not as interested in the Panzer votes that are going on because there are very few people who I think have legit cases against him, which means I'm going to have to look very closely at the folks on that wagon before I hop alongside of them. The reason I'm waiting now is that Xdaamno says he's going to make some sort of case, or post, or something of interest? I don't think you or anyone should be pushing a hammer with almost two days left to deadline- it makes me wonder if someone wants to cut Xda off for some reason.

[Artifex]

My problem with the Panzerwagon is this- four people on it- Xdaamno, Artem, Charter, Darox. Xda has been pretty straight up that he's voting for Panzer so that he doesnt get lynched himself. This is for obvious reasons not a compelling argument for me to also vote. Artem- I think he's genuinely scumhunting here. I do disagree with what seems to be his main issue with Panzer- this rolefishing business. If I'm understanding you correctly, youre are saying you preemptively called out role fishing in order to gauge peoples reactions to it. You find Panzer's reaction scummy cause he pushed hard when you were at L-1 but didnt when Xda hit the same count...right? My problem with this is that I dont get the 'preemptive' part. When you posted that, I thought you were dead on- we were a long ways away from deadline and had yet another player at L-1...if there had been calls for another role claim I'd have been very wary at that point. So, if your main point is inconistency in another's play, I dont see an inconsistency. Darox- dont trust him. I also dont agree with the theory that responses made while frustrated arent as relevant to responses made under pressure. Players get frustrated because of the pressure- I find this sort of thing just as telling because they're related to each other. Charter- I actually think Charter has the only legit case to be made on Panzer. The charter/artem pairing theory doesnt have a lot of proof behind it, and that Panzer uses it to justify actions he makes does seem suspicious to me, now that its been pointed out. Does this warrant more investigation- yeah. Im not willing to vote on it, though.

Out of the things that Xda has said this week, this bothers me most:

I would prefer any member of this game to be lynched before me.

This is not a town thing to say. Not because of the argument you make for why you voted Panzer in 362- I understand that, and find it thing for you to do no matter what your alignment. But I dont understand you wanting anybody else lynched before you. If youre town, you can still win even if you get lynched but town wins- it provides valuable evidence if nothing else. I would understand your thought process if you were the doctor or something- for a minute when I first read your post, I even thought you might be hinting at something like that. But then why would you have offfered to self hammer if you had such a role? So I dont like or agree with this statement for a townie to say.

[Artifex]

I promise you I did read your post. You say Xdaamno's posts following the whole Artem pressure vote thing you are marking down to frustration rather than scummy behavior, right?

I tend to be more sceptical of how scummy things said while frustrated are compared to things said while not under pressure.

I'm saying I dont agree with this statement. So what didnt I get?

[Artifex]

Pay close attention to the things I highlighted.

Chill, chill! I get my mistake, you dont have to break out the bbc size code anymore. You're saying that you really are more skeptical of 'scummy things said while frustrated'. I was confused because I thought you were referring to Xdaamno when referencing a player that was making posts that came across as frustrated.

@Charter- You're pretty excited about Panzer, too. An honest question- why is this time different from when you were excited about Xda (how can I know you arent being 'carried away' again?

[Artifex]

I was hoping that I could stay up long enough to read more from afatchic, but it doesnt look like Im gonna be able to. I'll be in class when the deadline goes down, but Ill try and sneak online before then. Nothings really changed my mind about Xda as lynch choice, though I do find all these last minute wagons (or asking about last minute wagons anyway) interesting. Something for Day Two at any rate.

[Artifex]

yikes, okay, thats not a good start. Guess I'd better start a readthrough too to see where I went wrong on this...more from me tomorrow.

[Artifex]

It keeps going back and forth in my head, and I keep failing to get any kind of a read on charter one way or the other. One the one hand, his posting style seems very...town to me. It's very sincere and assertive in tone. He uses actual events from the game and doesn't seem to be making emotion based decisions. On the other hand, I keep coming back to the fact that weve got a townie dead from a wagon charter had a big role in. But then he backed out, and this decision turned out to be the correct one. I cant decide if I think thats scummy or not, or to trust his current crusade because of it. I do want to know what you meant, charter, by saying it would be clear that artem was town today assuming you didn't mean it in a role outing kind of way.

[Artifex]

Argh! Sorry for going AWOL- I fractured my ankle on an ice patch Friday morning and I just couldnt friggin concentrate on the game (or my schoolwork for that matter) for the sheer aggravating continual dull ache. The good news I suppose is that I have to stay off my feet so I'll be glued to my laptop. Something more substantive from me tonight.

[Artifex]

Okay, re-read the whole friggin game. Hope I don't have to do that again for a while.

@ Artem- you asked me at the beginning of this day if I still felt the same about Darox, ie voting for him. I do still feel the same- that Darox is hiding a separate win condition from us. I'm thinking that it was a bad idea to try to get him lynched for it in Day 1, though, and I have my doubts that it's the smart thing to do for Day 2. Here's my reasoning:

My opinion of the timing of Darox's claim, as laid out way back in 281, remains unchanged. Darox took the one valuable thing his role had out of the running almost instantly, and his reasoning that it would be too dangerous if a cop or doctor targeted him seemed off to me. We had just started the game. Darox had just replaced in. It seemed premature to view this as a danger. It's a great move, though, if all you have to do is survive to the end of the game to win. Since then, Darox has had it made, just as Lynx pointed out- he's basically untouchable. I feel like he's directing action from a big lawnchair and a drink with an umbrella on the sidelines of the field. It makes me nervous.

But I don't think he's mafia- and as I think it's to his benefit to do so genuine scumhunting, I'm giving his Lynx argument some real thought. I don't agree with everything that's been said. The whole 'you're wording it wrong' argument, as outlined in 490, is a nulltell to me. It's obvious what Lynx meant regarding charters switch from Xdaamno, and it was a concern more than one of us pointed out pre charter's claim. That he did, indeed, word it wrong does not seem scummy to me. I'm not convinced by a couple of people on the Lynx wagon anyway, but I'll outline that later. The one real scummy thing that Lynx has done is, indeed, what Darox pointed out- suggesting that charter not use his power. At best, that's a lousy idea. This is a powerful chance town's been handed- as I read it, it's basically an investigation and a protect (well, for charter, but that's a good thing) all wrapped into one. We need every single successful use of this we can get. There's just no benefit to town with your plan, none at all. At worst, it's scummy.

@MR- don't direct the doc! If we followed your suggestions, we'd have made it nice and easy for the scum to pick the one of us off, knowing exactly where protection was gonna be.

[Artifex]

@ Artem- back in 497, you said you thought charter was likely town. Has your opinion of that changed any? Because I'm reading doubt in several of your posts later:

The problem is that you're effectively telling scum who they should kill next by naming a confirmed townie each day. That also means that I am not likely to see Day 3.

Another strange thing is that Lowell says charter is town in 77 and charter is reluctant to go after Lowell. While I believe charter's claim, these two facts make me wary.

Also, what do you think are the chances of scum having some talking on Night 0 and deciding to claim obscure (yet, investigation-immunity guaranteeing) roles throughout the game?...I admit, it's some wild speculation, but I have to throw it out on the table, since I am not likely to see the next day.

The conspiracy theorist in me is starting to panic a little that a bunch of us have decided to accept charter's claim, without question.

[Artifex]

I'd really like to hear from Lowell and what he thinks about what artem has said.

@Lynx- I actually agree with you that the claim was premature, but MR is right in that what's done is done. You and artem have raised enough concern about this current plan that I'd rather focus on what can be done to possibly prevent the idea that the scum will kill whoever charter names as town. Should charter perhaps not name who he hides behind tonight unless artem survives as well?

Still, if the doc protection isn't directed, then we pretty much rely on luck or a damn good doc to guess who is likely to be targetted.

I realize you've already conceded the point and all, but what the heck does this even mean? The town doesn't have any other means to decide this sort of thing besides luck or good guessing- they're in the same boat as the doc.

[Artifex]

@Lowell- how's artem looking for a scapegoat? He isnt in any danger. If you mean that he's trying to save Lynx from lynching for scummy reasons, does that mean you don't believe charter's claim? Cause he's said artem is town.