667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[kuribo]

Hi party people.

I'll catch up after I get back from lunch.

[kuribo]

Yes, why was afatchic replaced before moospiker?

I can answer this one:

When I PM'd the mod, I told him I'd be willing to replace afatchic. I didn't know the game needed two replacements. *shrug*

[kuribo]

Anyway, I'm preparing my Ultimate PBP of Ultimate Destiny.

[kuribo]

LIVE! From an abandoned tire factory, replacing afatchic in this game... the one, the only, kurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrribo!

I type these as I read, so any developments that occur further in the game will be noted as they occur. My thoughts are in parentheses.

Page 1- Random Vote Stage off with a bang. Kris votes with what he claims to be a reason 20 posts into the game, and says he'll jump off if it gets close to a lynch. I don't like that at all. Moospiker calls him out on it. Good. JDodge questions this logic as well. Page 1 Summary- Man, this town doesn't screw around, does it?

Page 2- fatchic correctly says that voting can carry a reason besides a lynch. JDodge knows that, says that it's not the only way to get things moving. (He's right) Fatchic and Moospiker agree. Kris says he was only kidding. (Dunno bout this, seems like a lame joke) Accuses JDodge of backpedaling. (Where? the Bizarro world?) Kris accuses Moo of not providing content. (Somewhat agree) Moo plays the dumb newbie card (I hate when people do this) JDodge defends himself from Kris' shaky attack. Moo agrees with JDodge. charter softly accuses Kris of reaching. (BTW, Kris really is reaching) Kris accuses JDodge of using lots of words to confuse people... and then proceeds to write a post longer than the Old Testament. (This post comes down to basically nothing) JDodge accuses Kris of twisting his words. (Somewhat true) JDodge disagrees with Lynch All Liars. (ugh mafia theory) charter doesn't think agreeing is scummy. (True. Scum can be disagreeable too.) Moo and fatchic are calling Kris out on this. JDodge says that it's possible to straddle a neutral position. Kris wants evidence that he's being manipulative. (what?) Lots of back and forth between JDodge / Moo vs Kris. Page 2 mercifully at an end. RUH-HEALLY not liking Kris right now. He's reaching for arguments, making very little sense, and becoming increasingly agitated.

Page 3- The seeds we sow. Kris is getting some blowback from his behavior. He minimizes the facts against him by calling them baseless. (They're not, and minimizing the case against you is one of my favorite scum-tells) Avinyl posts in purple (go Ravens), Moospiker asks for a claim, because that's L-1. (wait, isn't this page 3? Bad form Moo, and Avinyl gets negative points for the L-1 vote so fast. I'm not liking Kris right now, but L-1 on Page 3? Seriously?) charter says he's not really accusing him (You kinda were, but if you want to say "awww, poor guy, it's okay, I won't stop you, I guess) Charter pops his vote onto Moospiker for asking for the claim. Avinyl says he didn't notice the starrie vote (Maybe if you were actually playing...) Kris wants justification for charter's opinion (WTF?) JDodge rightfully says no one has any evidence right now. Moo jumps down JDodge's throat and votes him for calling he and Kris scumbuddies. (ugh) charter thinks moospiker is scum, too. Page 3 summary- Kris' behavior is becoming more erratic. I disagree with JDodge about Moo being Kris' scumbuddy, but some of Moo's behavior needs answered for. I don't like Avinyl's "I wasn't paying attention" answer to his L-1 vote.

Page 4- Fatchic questions Dodge's conclusion. Moo plays the newbie card (ugh) and fatchic rightly calls him on it. Avinyl for some reason doesn't find Moo as scummy anymore. (TRY TELLING US WHY) Debate about the newbie card. Lurking, Prods, etc. Kris attacks JDodge some more. charter wants to know why Moo thinks JD is scum. Page 4 Summary- I think Kris is fairly good at dodging the questions posed to him and hiding the fact in long posts. Don't like the newbie card. Everyone is basically lurking.

Page 5- fatchic makes absolutely no sense, charter calls him scum for flip-flopping. (it's not hard to think Moo's scum right now) Moo says fatchic's been flip-flopping, in some bizarre defense of him. Back and forth between charter and fatchic. (Problem with afatchic, having played two other games with him, is that he often makes little sense or comes to poor conclusions) JDodge pops his head in to defend himself. Avinyl says "HEY! STARRIE! GET BACK HERE!" and votes them. Page 5 Summary- JDodge needs to post more, Kris is throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks, still not liking Moo.

Page 6- Lots of prods. You slackers. Looks like we're a-stringin' Moo. I'd prefer Kris, and I have no idea how you people decided this would be a better alternative. Vi replaces Kris. Vi gives a pretty accurate portrayal of the game thus far. Moo says he doesn't know who the scum are. (What, didn't your role PM tell you who your partner was?) Everyone wants a claim, and hold the phone, Moo claims cop. You're the worst cop ever, if this is true. Claims to have tried to softclaim. (Not buying it) MM comes in. fatchic says that there's no point in voting an un-counterclaimed cop. (True) MM lists who he thinks is scum and who's not (I hate this, it tells the scum who they should NK) Also, he likes Kris' logical methods. I guess they're nice. If you're high. Page 6 Summary- Vi almost changes my mind about Kris, but two posts won't do it, scum, sorry. No longer suspecting Moo. Yet.

Page 7- charter doesn't buy the DPQ breadcrumb (me neither). JDodge votes fatchic. I don't find chic scummy, I guess I'm biased Moo goes back to Vi / Kris. (Good!) Vi wants to know why you would unvote an uncounter-claimed cop if you don't believe his breadcrumb. (Because he's AN UNCOUNTERCLAIMED COP! DURRRRRRRRR!) charter calls Avinyl out on bad behavior. charter wants Moo's top suspects. In order. Vi says telling people his suspicions makes him a target. (No. Telling people who you think is TOWN makes THEM a target) How the hell do you play mafia without voicing suspicions? Vi claims it wasn't serious. MM thinks JDodge is a bit scummier. Page 7 Summary- God, you people are long-winded.

Page 8- charter says there's a slim chance there's a second cop. Says if Moo was the cop, he shouldn't have been rolefishing. (Interesting point, since if there's a Doc, the Cop needs him alive) More pressure on fatchic. He's accused of straddling the line. (I guess? But not nearly as much as Avinyl) Why the hell aren't you people pressuring Vi?

The band comes out because it's HALFTIME! It's also the part where I lie and say I'm watching The Shield instead of, say, Caroline in the City Season 1 on a DVD that I got off of Netflix.

Page 9- Charter wants avinyl lynched. He's replaced by eldarad. Vi calls eld out for twisting his words. eld says Kris wasn't scummy (like hell) Wants an explanation as to why charter unvoted Moo. (Because he's AN UNCOUNTERCLAIMED COP! DURRRRRRRRR!) charter thinks eld is scum. Me too. MM makes an interesting point about JDodge. I still think Vi is scum.

Page 10- Vi finds eld scummy and votes him. (Or bussing?) eld claims vanilla townie. (yeah, okay, and I'm the King of Siam) charter makes a bit of a case on eld. Explains that he thinks eld and Moo are the scum pair. (I say Vi and Eld, but, hey) Vi reinforces that in my diseased mind by taking eld off L-1. (Was it the vanilla claim that did it for you?) eld and charter going back and forth a bit. Vi votes charter. (saw this coming)

Page 11- Moo is as useful as tits on an ostrich. charter thinks Eld is grasping at straws to discredit him. (yeah) JDodge promises a case on fatchic. Lots and lots of long-winded back and forth on this page.

Page 12- MM calls Vi "the most town-tells out of everyone." Sure, if you're in OPPOSITE LAND. Man, this discussion is making my eyes bleed.

Page 13- MM lurker-votes JDodge. (Seriously, JDodge does this crap all the time) JDodge points out that eld is obviously trying to save his neck. The case against fatchic is... fair. But fatchic is an erratic and irrational player and almost always comes off scummy. eld thinks charter and fatchic are linked. MM says meta is pointless (Wrong wrong wrong wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrooooooong!) MM uses an example where ignoring meta led to a win (Even a broken clock is right twice a day) JDodge points that fact out. Calls him out on hypocrisy, as does charter. (I missed this) MM calls fatchic out on not contributing (yes, that happens WHEN PEOPLE FLAKE)

Page 14- eld jokes that Vi is scum (You would know, wouldn't you?) MM calls fatchic scummier than JDodge. (This is a thinly veiled lurker lynch) Vi says the replacements are the scum's enemy. (Glad to know you see me as your enemy) Kuribo replaces in. (I loathe this man)

Aaaaaaaaaaand that's the recap.

I think if it's not clear that I was heading in this direction, you should read my PBP. Again.

Unvote, Vote: Vi

.

[kuribo]

MM calls fatchic out on not contributing (yes, that happens WHEN PEOPLE FLAKE)...MM calls fatchic scummier than JDodge. (This is a thinly veiled lurker lynch)

Characterizing afatchic as a flaker and lurker lynch does not do enough justice. Firstly, for the entire last month, afatchic had been continuously promising to give some serious analysis, but never manages to do so while posting on minor things to seem like he's contributing. So I thought he was likely to be lurking-in-plain-sight-scum. And what made this even worse was that afatchic was posting significantly in other games while avoiding and eventually giving up in this game, which signaled to me that he was not motivated to play as scum who is being attacked from multiple directions.

Yes, but if you've played with fatchic, you'd know that he's often irrational, acts extremely anti-town even when town, and becomes frustrated as a result. Perhaps it was a bit unfair of me to characterize it as a potential lurker lynch, but again, I'm a bit biased toward fatchic, considering I know his alignment.

A few things I'd like for you to follow up on.
*Moospiker's claim. True or false?
*Least likely to be scum. Vi, eldarad, or Machiavellian-Mafia?
*JDodge. Safely Town or room for doubt? (Or comical third option?)
*charter. Safely Town or room for doubt? (Or comical third option?)

1. Irrelevant. There's time to sort things out, and it'd be stupid to lynch him today. Moospiker's behavior is sufficiently disturbing enough to call it into doubt.
2. MM. I thought I made that clear I thought you and eld were most likely scum partners?
3. Room for doubt. There's always room for doubt--- I don't trust anyone except myself until I have reason to.
4. See 3.

You question charter's interest in staying alive, on the contrary, I read that as charter thinking ahead to the NK and not wanting to tell the scum who they should kill. This would set him up Day 2 as a target for lynching when his "Most Favoritest Townie" turns up dead that night. Regardless of HIS alignment. But, where it ACTUALLY leads from there is circular. (Did he really kill them, or did the scum want us to think that? Or did the scum just think the person was pro-town as well?)

And of course, alot of why I think you're scum rests on Kris' behavior. So? You yourself said that you can't much blame that point of view, and he WAS extremely scummy. It's also blatantly ignoring some of the other criticisms I've had of you.

[kuribo]

Not liking kuribo's replacement post (though I do appreciate it not just being a summary of the game. Hate when that's all a replacement post is. I've been in the game, I know what's happened). I will elaborate later.

I don't do it for your benefit, though, I do it for mine and to give my thoughts on what's happened.

[kuribo]

It's also blatantly ignoring some of the other criticisms I've had of you.

Like what.
I asked if I was missing something, and you gave me a vague-as-heck answer like this. Similarly, I asked what I could do to change your opinion, and you ignored that question entirely. If this is how you're going to go about this, I'm going to be as helpful as you are.

1. Irrelevant. There's time to sort things out, and it'd be stupid to lynch him today. Moospiker's behavior is sufficiently disturbing enough to call it into doubt.

It's not irrelevant. Lest you forgot, there are two scum in this game, and you've already named them IYO. If you've found both scum, Moospiker's claim is true.

2. MM. I thought I made that clear I thought you and eld were most likely scum partners?

You did. You also called M-M for a "thinly veiled lurker lynch", which would seem to me to be a significant scumtell.

'See, my problem with what you're doing is similar the same problem that caused me to vote charter (oh wait, I only did that as an excuse to pair up with eldarad; logic be darned). You claim to have found both scum, and are thus proceeding to dismiss what other people are doing as Very Scummy but not worthy of your interest.

----

You question charter's interest in staying alive, on the contrary, I read that as charter thinking ahead to the NK and not wanting to tell the scum who they should kill. This would set him up Day 2 as a target for lynching when his "Most Favoritest Townie" turns up dead that night. Regardless of HIS alignment. But, where it ACTUALLY leads from there is circular. (Did he really kill them, or did the scum want us to think that? Or did the scum just think the person was pro-town as well?)

Is this stance worth reconsidering in light of Moospiker claiming Cop soon afterward?

I don't know for a fact that you're both scum together, only that you're both my prime suspects.

Of course I questioned charter's actions. I QUESTION EVERYONE'S ACTIONS.

[kuribo]

Your page eight summary. All you basically say is we should be pressuring Vi. Why? Why did your analysis of page eight and on become much much less meaty than the first seven pages?

And most importantly, WHY VOTE VI, WHY NOT ELD?

Because, assume I believe Vi and Eld to be scum together. We don't have to lynch both in one day. I believe Vi to be scummier, in part because of Kris' behavior.

And the analysis becomes "less meaty" as you put it because you freaking people went on and on and on and on for 8 freaking pages about the same freaking crap that went nowhere. One page consisted almost solely of requests for prods and complaining about flakers.

[kuribo]

And to say you don't see how my logic leads to a Vi vote ignores Kris' scumminess--- which even Vi admits.

[kuribo]

While on that subject, I still like kuribo as my #1 suspect since the most important part of his analysis, Vi=scum, is something I strongly disagree with because I view Vi as the most not-yet-claimed protown player.

So you think Kris was protown, too?

[kuribo]

While on that subject, I still like kuribo as my #1 suspect since the most important part of his analysis, Vi=scum, is something I strongly disagree with because I view Vi as the most not-yet-claimed protown player.

So you think Kris was protown, too?

I had a mostly neutral read on KR

Do you often play while high? Or just this game?

[kuribo]

I thought Kris was pretty town.

Okay then, pass that stuff you guys are smoking over here to me.

[kuribo]

Yeah, I have my issues with MM, but even I don't see him as sniping at people who are unlikely to respond.

If anything, he's questioned me a fair bit, despite the fact that I'm exceedingly likely to respond.

[kuribo]

I see and acknowledge His Majesty kuribo's Vi-eldarad scum theory. Not buying it, sorry.

No freaking crap. It's not like I'd expect you to say, "Oh my god, now that I think of it, kuribo's right! Vi IS my scum partner! I'll be damned."

[kuribo]

Brilliant idea fresh from the noggin'.
Whoever sees the post where Sim announces Moospiker's replacement first, post in bold something like "[Moospiker's replacement] we have already massclaimed, everyone has claimed townie, can you confirm Moospiker's claim that you are indeed a townie? Please answer immediately."

The point is to do it before he can read the thread. Hopefully he doesn't see this post, and I don't think we need to discuss this and increase the chances of him seeing it. I really see no downside to this idea.

Wait, I'm seeing something in my crystal ball.

Yes, I'm seeing the victim of this ruse. Why, he's posting a thread in Mafia Discussion deriding you for your lack of ethics. And now I see six other people agreeing with him while you feebly try to defend your actions. And hold on, here's a guy saying "great, give people another reason not to be nice and replace into games."

This is terrible. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

[kuribo]

Also, unless he's a complete idiot, he'll think you're just rolefishing.

[kuribo]

By the looks of how this game is quickly grinding to a halt, I'm willing to move my vote to elderad fairly soon to put him at L-1.

Are you asking our permission? I don't understand why people do this.

"Well, gee, I'm REALLY thinking about voting..."

[kuribo]

By the looks of how this game is quickly grinding to a halt, I'm willing to move my vote to elderad fairly soon to put him at L-1.

Let me reiterate: Are you looking to shift the blame if he comes up town after a lynch?

"Hey, guys, I know I put him at L-1, but I said I was willing to do it and no one objected!"

[kuribo]

Your first post: No. I'm basically notifying others that I'm ready to move forward unless someone still has something significant, such as willingness to vote for you.

Yes, keep pushing that bit where the only case you have against me is that I found Kris scummy.

Holy shit I disagreed with the hivemind, that must make me scum.

[kuribo]

It more like your predecessor was very scummy and you haven't done anything to significantly quell the scumminess.

And yet when I use that same logic towards Vi, your reply is "lolololol I didn't think Kris was scummy lololol." Even Vi said he can understand the criticism of Kris.

[kuribo]

By the looks of how this game is quickly grinding to a halt, I'm willing to move my vote to elderad fairly soon to put him at L-1.

Let me reiterate: Are you looking to shift the blame if he comes up town after a lynch?

"Hey, guys, I know I put him at L-1, but I said I was willing to do it and no one objected!"

It would have been a good idea to not say this. Then we could have seen what he did tomorrow if eld is town. Now he surely won't do it.

You're right, I absolutely should keep my mouth shut when people set themselves up to shift blame for the lynch.

IN OPPOSITE LAND.

[kuribo]

I was sorta with you until you said that MM wants to lynch lurkers, when it's pretty clear he doesn't.

[kuribo]

Yeah, but afatchic always looks scummy, and I'm not just saying that because I replaced him. I've played like two or three other games with him, and the guy never looks pro-town, so that makes him a pretty easy target.

[kuribo]

not everything anti-town is scummy


for example, some players insist on pushing retarded logic during their games. They do this, even when town.

Does it hurt the town? Yes. So it's anti-town.

Is it scummy? No, because they're still town.


Lack of motivation can be for alot of reasons: Person burned out on mafia, person not being interested in a particular game, person thinking you're a douche. Lack of motivation in townies hurts the town, but that doesn't make the person scum. It just makes them lazy.

[kuribo]

A scummy behavior isn't just anything that harms the town.

The town can be harmed if a player decides to spam each page with 10 posts of the letter A.

Yes, it harms the town, but it doesn't help scum achieve their endgame either.

If something's scummy, that means it's something that scum do to ensure their victory.

So tell me how being lazy makes scum MORE LIKELY to win. What you're describing is a character flaw at best, not unlike my unending rage toward other players.

[kuribo]

Lazy townies deny potential information to the town, too.

Some players are just lazy. (See MafiaSSK for a glaring example)

Scum could just as easily, for example, post only in random votes. That denies the town information, but it certainly doesn't help the scum.

[kuribo]

I think that if you're basing your opinion of charter on his level of activity in this game, you're either half-crazy or scum trying to go for the kill.

Are you saying that only scum can have less interest in one game than another?

[kuribo]

I suppose I've misinterpreted your previous post where you said he was correct in stating:

He's saying I'm scum cause I post in other games more frequently than this one...

[kuribo]

@kuribo. Am I still your top suspect?

Yes, because your predecessor was scummy, and while my certainty of you as scum began to waver for a bit, I don't see your case against charter as air-tight.

In fact, it seems to me like you're hell-bound and determined to push that wagon, even if others are pointing out your fallacious logic.

And that's pretty bad coming from me, considering charter and I haven't been on the same page.

You're falling back on a "Lynch the Lurker" mentality, and in such a small game, I can't see that helping the town.

The difference between anti-town and scummy? Pushing to lynch a lurker in a small game is scummy. (Hint: it keeps pressure off of you and knocks out someone you know to be town)

Why charter? Why not JDodge? Is there something besides the lurkiness that you're not sharing?

[kuribo]

Active lurking as a tell is also rapidly becoming invalid.

Especially when there are a few players on this site who do it even when town. And despite getting lynched / vigged constantly.

[kuribo]

interesting that the hammer comes right after eldarad posts "hurrr hurr I'm at l-1, I bet that means I'm town" (no, this isn't want he posted exactly, but it's a basically what he said)

[kuribo]

wow my grammar / spelling was bad when I first woke up

[kuribo]

What?
If I believe Sche, it means him and kuribo are town, I'm town, that leaves you and jdodge.

You supposedly need to be making up your mind about it too. Funny how you don't seem to realize this.

Funny, because from my point of view, if I believe Sche, it means me and him are town, and any of you three could be scum.

So far, Sche's only told me something that I already know.

[kuribo]

That was directed at Vi.

Ah.

[kuribo]

Moospiker falseclaiming cop would be pretty risky though.

There's only one setup that allows for two cops, and a very small number that call for none at all. So for him to falseclaim cop would be his death sentence upon counterclaim and result in his scum partner being left alone.

I'm not liking alot of Vi's logic in trying to "sort things out."

[kuribo]

I'm not liking alot of Vi's logic in trying to "sort things out."

And that makes me wrong, or scum? Of course, putting in your own two cents on it is welcome.

uh, I thought I made it clear yesterday that I think you're probably scum?

Of course, there's the possibility that we don't have a doc at all and that JDodge / Vi are the scumteam. But if neither of them were the doc, that makes it awful risky for both to claim doc. So, one of them is almost certainly a doc, which makes the other scum.


Hmm....

[kuribo]

broke my quote tag, the first part is Vi talking

[kuribo]

hmmmm... the plot moistens.

[kuribo]

hmmmm... the plot moistens.

To contrast, your waffling grows stale.
'Anything else to add?

Only that I'd like to read over things a bit.

Got a problem with that? Or is it "waffling" to try and make sure I get it right?

[kuribo]

Vi- Having looked over things, I still don't like Vi, but it's entirely possible that I'm biased because I didn't like him on my first readthrough, either. I've already laid out why I think he's Mafia. Although, more recently, I think he's approaching the setup with a more open mind than JDodge. I don't like the case he laid out about why the cop claim shouldn't be valid. Of course it's valid.

JDodge- I don't like the idea that he wants to lynch either charter or myself today. Considering we have two claimed docs, and that neither setup allows this, it's clear that one of them is lying, and almost certainly scum. So he'd rather take a chance on lynching two of the unknowns? I don't like it.

charter- Some of his behavior of late has disturbed me. He seems to have flip flopped back and forth a bit about Sche, and there have been other concerns raised by others. I'm leaning town for charter, but also because there's no point in lynching anyone besides one of the claimed docs.

Sche- Alot of his behavior pre-claim is disturbing, but that's why he was forced to claim. I mostly believe him at this point, but of course I know that if we make the right lynch today, there's always time to return to Sche tomorrow.

So basically, I'm torn between the two obvious choices. I haven't decided yet if Vi's recent behavior is actually scummy to me, or if I'm biased because I found so much of his behavior before to be scummy.

They're both also speculating about who the other scum is. Keep in mind that one of them actually is scum. (because we make the assumption that only the world's most retarded townie would lie about being a doc in LYLO)

[kuribo]

I'm not downing you for voting charter, since we don't yet know his alignment, either.

I don't like when people use "I'm a newb" as an excuse, but I can certainly see that.

Personally, what we need if for Sche to pop his head in and for charter to post a little more.

[kuribo]

I think it's jdodge + kuribo. Gotta do some rereading before voting though.

Also, I was thinking. It might make sense not to lynch jdodge/vi today. If we nail scum today that isn't them (and assuming sche is cop) then it's an autowin tomorrow. Of course this excludes the scenario that it's jdodge/vi, which I find very possible.

Yes, but if your assumption is also that Sche is a cop, then you'd also have to assume that he happened to investigate a Godfather when he investigated me and got that innocent result. Possible, I'll say, but likely? Maybe, given the small number of players. But still.

If one believes both Vi (if one thinks JDodge is scum), and believes Sche, that makes YOU the scum. Which, naturally, you wouldn't say.

See, my problem is that I know one of those two is scum, and I haven't figured out which.

Of course, if Sche's lying (he would know I'm innocent, you see), trusting him is auto-lose for us right now.

[kuribo]

See, my problem is that I know one of those two is scum, and I haven't figured out which.

Shouldn't that be everyone's problem right now? Bird in hand > two in bush, or something like that.
Granted, we need people here for that to go very far.

@mod: Prods, replacements, modkills, gift certificates, etc.

@kuribo: What's got you hung up on your decision?

The fact that, as I've stated, I've found you scummy in the past, but I'm not sure if you're scummy enough for me to ignore the case against JDodge. I worry that the fact that I've found you scummy may be biasing my opinion. And unlike the others, I'm not willing to entertain "maybe" hitting a scum by choosing between Sche and charter--- either you or JDodge is scum, and they're the only choices I'm willing to entertain.

[kuribo]

And by Sche, I mean his replacement Sim.

[kuribo]

and by that I mean I'm an idiot who didn't read "I'm replacing Sche" as "I, the mod, am going to find a replacement for Sche." that's what I get for posting when half asleep

[kuribo]

I'll replace Scheherazade if you'll let me!

me too

[kuribo]

Hi all. Currently about half way though the game. I have to step out and do some things, but I should be all caught up this evening, tomorrow at the latest.

Good! Maybe you can make more sense of this game than I can.

[kuribo]

Add onto the fact then when it comes to JDodge or Vi we know that one of these guys IS scum. Is it a hard choice, damn right it is, but it is a choice that gives us the best chance to win the game.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

[kuribo]

Basically, we have to choose between charter/kuribo at some point, so there's no sense in trying to guess jdodge/vi as well.

You're right, let's not choose between the two claimed docs.

This is terrible logic whose only purpose is to attempt to preserve himself.

[kuribo]

No. Say we lynch one of jdodge/Vi today. We get it right. Tomorrow we STILL have to choose between kuribo/charter.

All I'm doing is not deciding between jdodge/Vi. No sense in making it extra complicated, at least from my standpoint.

Okay, suppose we lynch one of kuribo/charter today. We get it right. Tomorrow we STILL have to choose between jdodge/Vi.

[kuribo]

No. Sche investigates one of them tonight. He gets an innocent, then we know who not to lynch. He gets a guilty, we know who to lynch.

This from a guy whose only hope for survival under his own plan is to lynch the cop-confirmed innocent?

Who's to say that the fake doc isn't a Godfather? Course, if Sotty IS a cop, that means you're scum, and we won't have an investigation tonight if you get them to lynch me.

You've overplayed your hand, good sir.

Vote: charter

I call your bluff.

[kuribo]

Personally, I think charter reveals more about his intent than he lets on.

Perhaps his partner IS a Godfather, and he's hoping that even if he fails to get my lynch today, he's set up the seeds of doubt for tomorrow. So, if he's the lynch for today, then tonight the cop either investigates his partner or the real doc. Either way getting an innocent, and putting his buddy in a good position for the win.

[kuribo]

Why on god's green earth would the GODFATHER pull this counterclaim? Why would they risk the GF when the goon can do it and leave the GF to be immune to the night investigation?
Sorry, but your idea there doesn't make any sense.

You're right, it makes much more sense to assume that the Cop has already investigated the Godfather, and figure we can lynch one of the claimed docs tomorrow.

And of course, the fact that you bring up this "defense" makes it even more likely that's exactly what's happened.

[kuribo]

It means just what I said: I think you've set forth this argument in an attempt to put your partner in an advantageous position tomorrow.

[kuribo]

Why would the GF counterclaim doc instead of the goon?

Why not?

[kuribo]

Because the fact that you think to point out its unlikelihood makes it even more likely that such a play would be done to further confuse the town.

(ie, it's WIFOM to speculate as to whether they would or wouldn't)

[kuribo]

Because the fact that you think to point out its unlikelihood makes it even more likely that such a play would be done to further confuse the town.

[kuribo]

stupid CPU Quota, but you get the idea

[kuribo]

I'm flat out assuming the GF would not be picked to counterclaim (I say counterclaim, but it could be just claim if Vi is scum, you get the idea). PLUS how is me pointing out this confusing?

stupid CPU Quota

Agreed.

When we assume, we make an ass out of you and some guy named Ume.

And it's confusing me, that's for sure.

[kuribo]

I still don't understand the assumption that there IS a godfather.

It could just as easily be C9, Two of Four A7, or Bird C9.

[kuribo]

- kuribo never answered anyone's questions for afatchic
- kuribo never answered anyone's questions at himself
- kuribo did a great job of active lurking and flying under the radar
- kuribo is now trying to say that the GF would be the one counter/claiming doc today. This flat out doesn't make sense (I can explain again why if someone besides kuribo wants me to)

- How can I answer questions for someone else? Anything I say would simply be me making crap up. (ie, I cannot answer for him any better than you can)

- Hurrr, yes I did answer questions about myself. Care to reiterate what you want answered?

- I have never actively lurked or flown under the radar. (unlike yourself in this game)

- So we have a disagreement on mafia theory, that doesn't make me scum.

[kuribo]

Ok, I think I botched the tl;dr part. Why can't you respond to the individual points against you?

Because it all boils down to accusations of active lurking:

436-439- argues a bunch about useless things
Beginning of day two, posts a bunch but says nothing.
502,504- more active lurking
510- Extremely wishy washy on his reads on everyone. There's huge gaps left open to interpretation.

Which I have

NEVER

done in any game I've ever played--- and frankly, the accusation offends me.

Or afatchic's transgressions, which I cannot answer for.

Or, disagreements on Mafia theory, which I've said before isn't one of my strong points:

550- kuribo votes me after I explain how lynching one of me/him is an autowin (and he doesn't even agree with lynching one of me/him today)
560- tries to pass off the GF counter/claiming doc as WIFOM when it isn't, and refuses to answer why the GF would be the one counter/claiming rather than goon.

But that doesn't make me scum.

So your case against me is that you perceive some of my posts as active lurking (which they are not, nor have ever been), or that afatchic was scummy (so what?), or that we disagree about lynching either you or me. (You haven't shown me why it's a good idea).

How the hell did I not address the individual points? What do you want clarified?

[kuribo]

Of course afatchic and I have the same alignment, but if he was acting retarded or scummy, I can't explain that. I don't expect anyone to sweep it under the table, but to expect me to be able to speak for another person would be disingenuous.

[kuribo]

You three other players should show up sometime.

I've been here for quite awhile, having just posted 2 days ago.

[kuribo]

I meant paying attention to the two old hens with the Doc hats.

I'll give charter vs. kuribo a look later today.

I *AM* paying attention, just as one would hope everyone else was paying attention while charter and I discussed the exact same thing over and over and over at length.

[kuribo]

Did we all die in the crash or are we just waiting for something to happen?

we're all just stubborn

[kuribo]

I mean, there's nothing I can say I didn't say yesterday. If you have any more questions I'll answer them.

The only thing I could add is how jdodge and kuribo were massively lurking at deadline. My theory is that they were hoping they could just sit tight and force you to pick right.

I wasn't lurking at the deadline, scum, I work evenings. Nice try, though.

may as well get this part over with:

Vote: charter

[kuribo]

Did we all die in the crash or are we just waiting for something to happen?

we're all just stubborn

That was his only post before deadline (Jan 12) after Jan 1. If that isn't lurking before deadline than shoot me. ONE POST IN 11 DAYS THAT SAID NOTHING IN LYLO. It doesn't get any more textbook than that.

I'd have to go back and check, but I don't remember if kuribo ever leaned towards one of jdodge/vi or if he was just really vague.

Maybe you need to take memory pills but the site was also down for a number of days during that period.

[kuribo]

And you have no room to condemn me for not posting between January 1 and January 11--- you yourself didn't post at all between the 1st and the 8th--- of which your only post was "hay guyz i'm on vacation, k"

So what's the difference between the 11th and the 8th? Three more days and it's "lurking?" What were YOU doing?

[kuribo]

Sotty, would you still think that kuribo is town if we get to tomorrow with a doc dead, a goon lynched, and you have an innocent on both me and kuribo?

also, can I borrow your crystal ball?

[kuribo]

Oh, and hey, let's talk about your JDodge vote:

Well, either Jodge is scum and me voting him will be good, or he's town and he's about to get lynched anyway.

unvote, vote Jdodge

Go Town!

Worthless distancing on someone you knew would flip scum, especially when, as you said, he was going to be the lynch regardless.

[kuribo]

I don't lurk, and I don't like the accusation, either.

[kuribo]

Having looked at your posting record kuribo, charter is right. Not only where you happily posting, but you were posting in multiple games while avoiding this one.

If that's not lurking, what is it?

And what exactly would I have posted that would have added anything to the conversation? What would I have posted that hadn't been said over and over and OVER and OVER? You knew who my scum suspects were, and you knew why. Would you have rather I posted pointless garbage instead of actual content? You know, that way charter could accuse me of "active lurking" instead?

[kuribo]

THERE'S PROOF OF IT. What do you call it then? Having no interest in a game with an impending deadline at LYLO? Lurking is a better way of saving face if you ask me.

Better responses would have been "didn't know there was a deadline" or some other lie that would at least leave doubt in sotty's head. You've already forfeited the chance for another explanation to your absense to this game in particular.

I don't have to come up with another explanation, scum, I said what happened and that's what happened.

[kuribo]

There were questions directed at you, you could have answered those. You could have talked about which of jdodge/vi you would have voted. You could have tried to help the town win.

Which questions?

And I thought I had made it abundantly clear, repeatedly, that I thought Vi was scum?

[kuribo]

That would have been an important one to answer I think.

Can't answer questions while I'm at work, buckwheat.

[kuribo]

And stop with the "ten days before deadline" crap, since I've reminded you that the site was down for a considerable period during that ten days.

[kuribo]

As for why the GF would counter-claim, you're basically using a disagreement in mafia theory, salted with some WIFOM to try and paint me as scum, which is a pretty piss-poor case to begin with. "The GF wouldn't counter-claim" is so WIFOM laden because you DON'T KNOW what the Godfather would do. (well, YOU would)

So now you're saying, "It would make no sense for the GF to counter-claim, and he didn't." So why DIDN'T you counter-claim? Oh right, you said it would make no sense.*


* I'm pointing out how stupid the whole "Godfather wouldn't counter-claim" argument is.

[kuribo]

So the site was only down for this thread? Not the other ones?

that's not what I said, what I said is that you keep pointing to "lolololol 10 days," when you yourself were gone from this thread for 8.

What's the difference between 8 and 10 days? (and "2" is not the correct answer)

[kuribo]

Well you were happily posting in other threads after site downtime. I posted in this one when I got back from vacation. Once again, you're trying to say that me going on vacation is scummy rather than trying to find actions within this game that make me scum. Besides, I posted plenty in this thread in the few days before deadline.

But, I already posted the actions that made you scum, and if I recall correctly, you had no satisfying answer for those questions.

[kuribo]

Okay, I've been reading and I'm almost done with the game up to page 22. Right now I'm tried and if I keep going I don't think I will be making sense of anything. So I am going to step away and finish up tomorrow. But before I go, I wanted to ask kuribo a couple of questions about a post I just read.

Vi- Having looked over things, I still don't like Vi, but it's entirely possible that I'm biased because I didn't like him on my first readthrough, either. I've already laid out why I think he's Mafia. Although, more recently, I think he's approaching the setup with a more open mind than JDodge.

I don't like the case he laid out about why the cop claim shouldn't be valid. Of course it's valid.

JDodge- I don't like the idea that he wants to lynch either charter or myself today. Considering we have two claimed docs, and that neither setup allows this, it's clear that one of them is lying, and almost certainly scum. So he'd rather take a chance on lynching two of the unknowns? I don't like it.

charter- Some of his behavior of late has disturbed me. He seems to have flip flopped back and forth a bit about Sche, and there have been other concerns raised by others.

I'm leaning town for charter, but also because there's no point in lynching anyone besides one of the claimed docs.

Sche- Alot of his behavior pre-claim is disturbing, but that's why he was forced to claim.

I mostly believe him at this point

, but of course I know that if we make the right lynch today, there's always time to return to Sche tomorrow.

So basically, I'm torn between the two obvious choices. I haven't decided yet if Vi's recent behavior is actually scummy to me, or if I'm biased because I found so much of his behavior before to be scummy.

They're both also speculating about who the other scum is.

Keep in mind that one of them actually is scum.

(because we make the assumption that only the world's most retarded townie would lie about being a doc in LYLO)

There are a couple of things that bug me here.

The first is you 180 on Vi because in post 494 you say you don't like Vi's attempts to sort the game out. Now he's the open minded one. You also state that you don't like how Vi questions the cop claim going as far as to say it's a valid claim.

When you talk about charter you mention how he has been scummy but then you say you are leaning town on him. This really does not add up if you believe the cop claim to be valid.

Talking about Sche you say you believe him for now, but leave room to return to him if needs be.... So how is there room for charter to be town at this point? The only way is if you believed JDodge and Vi are scum together pulling off a crazy gambit...

But you never even entertain that idea. You say

one

of them must be scum.

So if you believe Sche's cop claim.
And yet are leaning towards charter being town...
Why didn't you put out the thought that Vi and JDodge are scum? Because that's the only way this can all work, without you being scum.

Out of all the posts I have read so far this truly is the most damning in my eyes at this point. To me it looks like you where the one that over played his hand at this point. I will say that you where going back and forth about the cop claim like crazy. However in this post you state that you believe the claim at least twice. So what gives?

I'll be back tomorrow with more.

I said I MOSTLY believed it. I said that I also was leaning town on charter partly because I didn't see any point in lynching anyone besides either JDodge or Vi.

Heh. That's a pretty good catch Sotty. That was right after jdodge countered. I know I didn't immediately assume that both doctors weren't scum, it took me a LONG time before I was ready to make the assumption that you were cop and that only one of those doctors was scum. Here kuribo slips that he knows it isn't a scum gambit and that just one is scum.

It's not a good catch. I knew that as a Vanilla Townie, I couldn't possibly be a doctor. I also point out--- IN THE VERY POST QUOTED--- that in my view, it would have been retarded for a vanilla to claim doc at LYLO. I don't consider retarded options. So my conclusion was that one of them really was a doc, and one was scum. It's not that hard to noodle out.

See, Sotty, charter thinks he can get away with agreeing with you on stuff like this because he's played with me: he knows that I seldom think about who might be who's partners until scum is actually lynched. I don't go for that whole "X and Y are scum together," until we find out the alignment of one of them first.

[kuribo]

No kuribo. How did you already know that only one of them was the doc? How did you know that they both weren't scum? You are completely avoiding her question.

I'm not avoiding the question, I'm adhering to common sense which says it would be stupid for both scum to claim doc against one another.

[kuribo]

When have I played a game with you? I don't remember ever being in a game with you before, what game was it? So no, I don't know that you seldom think about partners until scum are lynched.

Are you quite sure? I could swear we have.

[kuribo]

Ah wait, I see now:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6958

That's the game I was thinking of, you replaced out of it.

[kuribo]

I didn't respond to Sotty, because I already explained the reason for "so many likely townies," in that I scumhunt one scum at a time.

[kuribo]

gg scum

[kuribo]

nono, i'm kidding, just wanted to scare you Sotty

gg town

[kuribo]

I want to point out that I was never intentionally lurking--- it's just that this game fell by the wayside a bit when things were getting deep in other games, and ever since the site went down for a few days I've been a bit lax in my posting / interest in general.

[kuribo]

Well, I thought that you probabaly didn't mean to, but I had to say whatever to Sotty to make her think you were scum. Although, I think that zero posts before deadline like you did was quite scummy.

Also, I'm extremely curious. Did you guys decide for the goon to counter, or for jdodge, or what?

nope, our night talk was pretty much, "let's kill MM" "okay"