Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[Ether]

Ped's username creeps me out.

That doesn't really affect his likelihood of being scum, but it seemed like a good time to point it out.

[Ether]

[mrow]Name[col]Avatar[col]Additional notes Fuzzyman[col][col]Leave me alone

While Mizzy's assessment of Tisp is valid, his or her username is also an anagram of "spit." Dunno...that's kinda townish, I think.

[Ether]

The ASCII string "Fuzzyman" is literally echoing with towniness within my little cyborg brain, which is annoying because otherwise I'd vote you for your insolence.

[Ether]

Vote crywolf20084

You are at the top of the not voting list

and your name starts with a C.

vote: q21

cuz he's the only other person with numbers in his name

vote: Corvuus

for copying my old name of Corvus.

Vote: Tisp

for sounding like lisp.

Vote: Mister Lolipedo-kun

For having an unnaturally convoluted name.

vote: Aceagain

For not capitalizing "again".

You're not helping your case, man.

[Ether]

I'm not going to like Corvuus.

[Ether]

I don't

get

what Fuzzyman is thinking, and it bugs me a bit that he was pressuring me to place an obviously harmless vote on him. Why should he care? Aside from that, his campaign to make me jump through stupid hoops seems null.

I highly doubt that the random voting order means anything, but Mizzy's Fuzzyvote does bother me. I'll

vote: Mizzy

while I wonder where the hell my bloodlust got to. Mizzy, were any of the reasons you gave to vote Fuzzyman meant seriously?

Ped, what do you think of the other exchanges so far?

[Ether]

Maybe later. (Actually, I've already taken the effort to spell about half of it out, so later.)

Answer the question.

[Ether]

'Kay.

"No one has voted you yet" is my least favorite classic random vote; a lame attempt to soften the blow.

Voting someone for trying to start the game is stupid. He said himself that the case might be remotely valid. Also, I

agree

with Canary that Mizzy's vote was off, so yeah.

"It could be additional evidence for a good case but it is WIFOM otherwise" is both wishy-washy and displays a lack of understanding as to what WIFOM actually is. (So does what you just said up there: WIFOM is when a town tell might not be valid because the person who made the tell could have realized you'd think that. People tend to just drop the word anywhere and assume that it fits.)

This doesn't actually come off as scummy to me, except possibly if Mizzy is scum. But it's an irritating mindset.

I would like Corvuus to post opinions of Mizzy and Fuzzyman directly, though.

[Ether]

Oh, Ether posted while I was previewing my post. She had actual reasons other than much internet <3'in. My theory was shot down!

Shit, I forgot that part. Voting Canary isn't cool, guys.

[Ether]

Was not previously aware that there was an issue with quote pyramids; I've never been affected. I like my Mizvote. Hmm hmm.

Oh, and by the way, I feel Ether is town because she called out my flimsy vote, voted me, and then asked about it. That's scumhunting, folks.

I agree with Canary; this is bizarre. What would you

expect

me to do as scum?

His #16 which came off to me as trying to actively find a way to end random voting as early as possible. Ending the random phase in and of itself isn't scummy but I find the way he did it to be scummy. He found the first remotely questionable thing (which was a huge stretch and taking things seriously that probably shouldn't have been) and used that as his excuse.

His #18 really bothers me. Firstly, it seems that he has no clue about random voting and why it's useful and then tries to use his flawed understanding as reasoning. Secondly he uses a "vote for me" play which is a terrible thing to do this early in the game, or at all in my opinion. He said to vote for him (even if the reason why didn't match up) and so I did.

Meh. I think the "townish" hypothesis is null, personally, and I don't understand why you think his zeal about random voting is actually

scummy

. (I used to be like that. Heh.) I don't particularly like that he wanted to look enthusiastic about getting voted at a point where the stakes were close to zero anyway, no, but it still seems kinda minor.

I dunno. Frankly, I've always felt that once you throw around adjectives like that, the person speaking has a goal. I was probably wrong.

I've never heard that before, but I rarely come under much pressure, so I could be convinced that I'm subconsciously doing something right.

Ether tends to act that way regardless of alignment. By that, I mean she uses adjectives like "insolent." She's just that way. And her goal, I'm sure, is to win, no matter what side she's on. All of us should have the same goal, which means that everyone's actions in this game can safely be assumed to be for the purpose of meeting that goal.

I am not sure what it is you just said.

Crywolf. Who's scum?

[Ether]

You should make answering my questions a higher priority, obv.

I see Corvuus asked for replacement. I urge him to reconsider; I didn't mean anything personally.

[Ether]

Oh, and by the way, I feel Ether is town because she called out my flimsy vote, voted me, and then asked about it. That's scumhunting, folks.

I agree with Canary; this is bizarre. What would you

expect

me to do as scum?

His #16 which came off to me as trying to actively find a way to end random voting as early as possible. Ending the random phase in and of itself isn't scummy but I find the way he did it to be scummy. He found the first remotely questionable thing (which was a huge stretch and taking things seriously that probably shouldn't have been) and used that as his excuse.

His #18 really bothers me. Firstly, it seems that he has no clue about random voting and why it's useful and then tries to use his flawed understanding as reasoning. Secondly he uses a "vote for me" play which is a terrible thing to do this early in the game, or at all in my opinion. He said to vote for him (even if the reason why didn't match up) and so I did.

Meh. I think the "townish" hypothesis is null, personally,

and I don't understand why you think his zeal about random voting is actually scummy.

(I used to be like that. Heh.) I don't particularly like that he wanted to look enthusiastic about getting voted at a point where the stakes were close to zero anyway, no, but it still seems kinda minor.

Ether tends to act that way regardless of alignment. By that, I mean she uses adjectives like "insolent." She's just that way. And her goal, I'm sure, is to win, no matter what side she's on. All of us should have the same goal, which means that everyone's actions in this game can safely be assumed to be for the purpose of meeting that goal.

I am not sure what it is you just said.

(Technically only one of those was actually a question.)

[Ether]

Crywolf. Who's scum?

[Ether]

Ether:

Honestly, if you were scum, I'd expect you to lay low a little bit and not call quite so much attention to yourself. I didn't mention my real reasons for my vote on purpose; to see who asked me about them and in what order/context. The way you did it pointed you out to me as being probtown. I could be wrong but hey, first impressions and all that.

The middle one I won't respond to because there doesn't seem to be anything to respond to.

And the last one I would urge you to re-read what I said, slowly, with a stiff drink to wash it all down with.

Find this answer sketchy, but don't really have any follow-up questions.

I wanted to know how "tries to use his flawed understanding" implies "scum" instead of "has a flawed understanding."

Correct me if I'm wrong: your last answer means, "Neither am I?"

[Ether]

Yeah, those walls of text suck.

You need to be producing content instead of waiting for it.

[Ether]

Come up with something yourself.

Are you saying I'm not doing that?

[Ether]

I was not aware that you were sick or studying for a very important bio test.

I have no idea how asking a lurker to stop lurking and pointing out that I myself am not lurking is "too far."

[Ether]

Psh. I'm not going to let someone active-lurk up until Page 10 to the point where nothing has been said in two days.

I'm summarizing my behavior toward you: three times repeating that you should get into the game, and once getting annoyed because you had the nerve to insinuate that I was no better than you.

And I am acting town. ^_^

How's that read?

[Ether]

[quote=""Insolence""]Ether: Do stuff.
Crywolf: You do stuff. I'll do stuff after the rest of you have done stuff.
Ether: I am doing stuff. You're not doing stuff. I'm being better than you in this regard. Now go do stuff.
Crywolf: You're not better than me unless you have an information role![/quote]
I'm looking for something--some

ones

--whilst you've admitted to be waiting on people like me. My role is irrelevant; what I've been doing is the model you should be following.

Especially

early on when you don't have any content on the record yet.

There

is

a mass of lurkers. Most of them I'm willing to leave their own devices for at least another day or two; I acknowledge that there hasn't much realtime yet. But when you make pop in with posts like "cool, I see stuff is happening now but I'm going to

unvote

without talking about it" and "hai Corvuus's replacement!," it's clear you're following the thread without actually doing anything. And

then

I get really annoyed.

What are your thoughts on Mizzy, Fuzzyman, Canary and Ped? Hell, the only thing you've said about

my

alignment was 74.

[Ether]

I'll wait for all that.

[Ether]

Dislike q21's vote, regardless of Mizzy's alignment.

[Ether]

Please List {Fuzzyman, Green Crayons, q21} in order of scumminess.

[Ether]

It's Mizzy I really want to hear that answer from, mostly.

Aside from that, I'm content to wait for {Aceagain, Corporate, Crywolf, Simpor, Tisp} (heh) to post their analyses.

[Ether]

Huh? That's half the game.

[Ether]

Why?

[Ether]

What's the default number on that scale?

[Ether]

Hah. My unvote was a mistake, but I get this feeling I'm going to be voting half the cast over the next few pages anyway, so meh, whatever.

[Ether]

For reference, how long do you expect to be limited access on your job?

[Ether]

No. I'm not thrilled with Mizzy, but I completely believe that her job is serious business. And she

still

manages to be more active than half the game. I think the focus should move to someone else for today.

So how did your read go, Corporate?

[Ether]

Reference question for everyone: what went through your head when I accidentally unvoted in 74?

Ether: can you please rank Corporate, q21, fuzzy, GC, Tisp and Mizzy using any scale of scumminess you please.

Scum
↑
q21 - "The point here is that even were those reasons flawless why not give them when you voted? Giving reasons for a vote after the fact seems like a scummy way play" from 88 is a bullshit excuse, and it makes me nervous that I'm almost the only person who feels this way.
Corporate - You said in another thread that you hadn't played in a while, Corporate. What

is

your mafia experience? Full details.
Mizzy - bored now.
Tisp - lurkerhate, mostly.
Fuzzyman - I would have put him a bit higher before 121, but he does have opinions, so yeah.
Green Crayons - actually, I'm not really sure how to read him.
↓
Town

I'm probably not going to stick to this, obviously. Tisp, why was it Fuzzyman and me you wanted to hear from, and why did you ask about those people specifically? Do you

really

think Crywolf is in the exact same set as {Aceagain, Simpor}?

and the using real life as a way to dodge questions. hey, it may be a low, shitty tactic. but the objective is to win, and if i was scum i would use every tool at my disposal. im not trying to be unsportsman like or slanderous, but im not going to assume anyones telling the truth about anything, yet.

Yeah, but that's because you're a horrible person. (shrug)

Yes you may have contributed a little bit, but to me, being sick and studying for a very important Bio test takes precedent to this.

Why doesn't this bother you, Corporate? She actually

has

used this as a crutch, while still being active elsewhere on the site; in contrast, most of Mizzy's recent posts are still here on 707.

[Ether]

vote: crywolf20084

Simpor and Aceagain haven't been posting elsewhere. They need to get into this game or get replaced early while it's more convenient for everyone. All three can both be prodded in a few hours, which is nice.

q21, could you give examples of this tell in action? I am highly skeptical.

and im a horrible person?

Jerk.

why does it matter my full mafia experience?

You've implied that this isn't your first account, and I'd give good odds that the lack of capitalization and apostrophes is a conscious decision made to distinguish you from your main. Long story short, my read on you conflicts between "scummy" and "an illiterate alt belonging to the sort of person who enjoys screwing around on illiterate alts."

(Disclaimer: there are some people I like and respect who have made alts in such a manner. You don't give off the same vibe.

Also, I don't like their alts, either.

)

Knowing who you are would make my life a lot easier.

[Ether]

I could get into an argument about how you're backtracking; having an FoS on every player in the game says nothing whatsoever; meta curiosity is among the least scummy things in the game; helping me produce a read on you

does

help the town. But I'm in a lazy nihilistic mood and doubt that this would change my read on you, inspire you to get your shit together or alert the rest of the players to information that isn't completely transparent. So yeah.

Mod:

please prod Aceagain and Crywolf. Simpor's also eligible for a prod, but he's viewing the thread, so hopefully he won't be eligible by the time you get here.

[Ether]

♥

Crywolf, what don't

you

like from Corporate? Simpor, what do you like from Ped? And why the hell do you care if Crywolf thinks I have a power role?

Secondly, I do not like how Ether’s practically running the game. Whatever she asks people jump and do it.

So far, I think Patrick's the only person who did something because I asked him. Most of the other efforts to defend my honor is just stuff people felt like doing, which I sometimes appreciate and sometimes don't really care about. I don't think you can name a single spot where I actually called another player to my aid, aside from just to answer direct questions.

Actually, I'm seeing a more and more strongly defined split centered around me, and I find it a bit unnerving. By voting me, you're just helping to foster this notion that I'm the most important thing in the game. ._.

vote: crywolf20084

Why?

This is prior to you asking for a prod for me.

Failure to answer my questions; OMGUS to avoid actual content during our enchange; lurking whilst posting elsewhere on the site. I couldn't call the mod in at that time, since you hadn't been gone for 72 hours yet.

You also states that your unvote of Mizzy was a mistake, implying that your vote belongs there (at least from my understanding). But Mizzy is not high up on your scumlist.. And if you don't think that Mizzy is scum, then your unvote should be correct?

Mizzy - bored now.

At the time, the unvote was an accident. By the time Charter had me blank on the next votecount and I realized my mistake when, I didn't care enough to replace it. I suspected that my vote would be pulling a lurkerhunt in the near future anyway.

I don't think I'll be moving back to Mizzy after she's out of work; the Mizhate is too universal for my tastes. I find myself losing interest in q21 as well, even though he didn't, like, answer my question. It's probably just a subconscious reaction to him backing me up, but then again, I'm starting to get nervous with Ped.

48-hour alert: Tisp

[Ether]

Crywolf is backpedaling and ignoring my responses and question.

But at least that second half is a step in the direction of breaking my dangerous cult of personality. So that's good, right?

[Ether]

I have a really bad feeling about this.

Corporate. Old account name, and reasons why you're on a new one instead. Now. Thank you.

[Ether]

Yes.

[Ether]

If your main's not important, tell us. Or you could tell a third party; I don't particularly mind. If, say, Mr. Flay reassures me that you're someone who isn't malicious, I'll take his word for it and help lynch your ass.

In the meantime,

unvote; vote: Simpor

. Not all questions are pro-town. It is not a responsibility as a townie to vocally seek out power roles. And I

really

hate the fear-mongering generalization you put into your defense.

And pretty much all Ped's done is agree with me, and I'm tied for highest on your list. So yeah.

Crywolf: I posted Corporate's contradiction in order to highlight Corporate's contradiction; otherwise I would not have brought it up. (Also, what Canary said about your activity around the rest of the site, though I wasn't drawing attention to that in this instance, and you seem to be paying more attention now.) I would say that giving people Lists to fill out is generally useful for the town, but in this instance I don't even

remember

posting a group of five people to rate.

I don't like his vote without any following reasons. I said that. Read.

I'm sorry; I didn't notice your dislike of Corporate's lack of reasons. (I still don't think not giving reasons is a scumtell in most circumstances.) Understand that Corporate's platforms look pretty similar to yours from where I was sitting, especially at the time when I posted that. AntiCaff stuff, Mizzy's-V/LA-ruse...and that contradiction wouldn't really matter to you as much as it might matter to the the rest of us.

By the way, I am human, and capable of making slips sometimes. I know that you enjoy taking every possible opportunity to snarl at me, but that last bit really wasn't needed.

[Ether]

Fuzzyman: Charter's been around for like a year and a half, and this game had at least two other reviewers. It's not gonna have a jester; Corporate's just fucking around.

If your main's not important, tell us. Or you could tell a third party; I don't particularly mind. If, say, Mr. Flay reassures me that you're someone who isn't malicious, I'll take his word for it and help lynch your ass.

Holy shit, I just suggested dragging Flay into this.

[Ether]

I don't encourage Corporate's replacement if he's legitimate. That feels dirty.

But I really want him to tell someone his identity.

[Ether]

Doubt he's going to.

In other news, no one's commented on my Simpor vote.

[Ether]

It was Simpor's response that led me to vote him.

I could ask you, why the hell do you care what I like about Ped?
I believe that it is a responsibility as a townie to ask questions, if we didn't do that, the scum would win every time.

First off, I dislike the juxtaposition between "How dare you ask me about Ped?" and "I like questions." Second, that's a strawman fallacy, combined with false warnings of doom to push his point home. Yes, asking certain types of questions is necessary, but

his

question was extremely unnecessary.

I don't think Crywolf has ever fished for my role. The "power roles deserve more authority during the day" sentiment is idiotic, but I think I've seen it before. Don't remember specific examples to cite, but it rings a bell.

Canary/Crywolf, what do you think about my efforts to learn what the deal with Corporate is? Crywolf actually criticized his efforts to hide his identity.

I'd still like Crywolf to cite an example of me commanding the town in a negative way. Really don't think she's trying here.

[Ether]

Man,

now

I'm kinda tempted to lynch him. ¬_¬

Hi, q21. How do you like my Simporvote?

I think it's just your way of speaking. It always seems to me pushing to mold the town into your ways of thinking.

Is that a "meh, maybe it's just your playstyle" or a "meh, you did

something

scummy, dammit"?

[Ether]

Disagree.

I'd rather someone say "no opinion" than just ignore me.

[Ether]

I meant the second. (I'm not going to challenge whether or not you had an opinion.) Since no one drew any attention toward my vote, scum would have had every reason to downplay it as well.

[Ether]

You could totally just vote now. We just need to establish that Patrick's town and we're good to go.

It was Simpor's response that led me to vote him.

I could ask you, why the hell do you care what I like about Ped?
I believe that it is a responsibility as a townie to ask questions, if we didn't do that, the scum would win every time.

First off, I dislike the juxtaposition between "How dare you ask me about Ped?" and "I like questions." Second, that's a strawman fallacy, combined with false warnings of doom to push his point home. Yes, asking certain types of questions is necessary, but

his

question was extremely unnecessary.

I don't think Crywolf has ever fished for my role. The "power roles deserve more authority during the day" sentiment is idiotic, but I think I've seen it before. Don't remember specific examples to cite, but it rings a bell.

Fun note about his "questions" overreaction. Searching his posts for question marks, here are the questions he's asked since his original analysis:

• I could ask you, why the hell do you care what I like about Ped?

  Defensive. Still the closest thing to a proper question out of the four.

  And scum, well, should a townie act like this in a game?

  Hypothetical.

  What is there to comment? No one else have picked up Ethers opinion.

  Valid as a point, but technically a hypothetical question.

  I have to say that criminalizing the people who have points against you is not a valid defense

  Where have I done that? Post a quote!

  Just defending himself. ("Defensive" has connotations I'll avoid in this instance.)

Don't see him making up for it with other things, either. Mostly he just lurks and defends himself.

Probably limited access through Sunday due to Thanksgiving break.

[Ether]

I am still unamused by Crywolf's disdain for this specific thread. Could've sworn I saw Tisp looking at Little Italy earlier today, too; he's prodbait in a bit more than half a day. (Roughly the time I expect to wake up, basically.)

Fortunately, we can still muster up enough votes to lynch Simpor without those slackers.

(Checking in from home. Thinking a bit more than that, but I'll hold off.)

[Ether]

I am still unamused by Crywolf's disdain for

this specific thread.

I'd like to see how the Simpor case evolves but my vote will remain on Corporate for the time being

I agree with Corporate. Keep talking.

[Ether]

I am still unamused by Crywolf's disdain for

this specific thread.

Now I feel bad--I'll wait until afterward to bug you about this same point, 'kay?

[Ether]

I can't help but read,

I'd like to see how the Simpor case evolves but my vote will remain on Corporate for the time being

as,

Checking in. I'll bus Simpor if it's absolutely necessary.

You're not giving us much else to work with here.

[Ether]

As of right now however; I don't believe it is right to make a case against Ether when corp, simpor and crywolf are acting far worse.

Because I don't feel strongly for Simpor.

"Far worse." That implies that you think

something

about what Simpor's done, but you're not even gonna type that.

You do need to give us more to work with, and not just on Simpor and Corporate. You're lurking.

[Ether]

I'm annoyed and kinda disturbed that so many people are so willing to ignore Simpor.

I don't get why people do PBPs, especially in the above manner--the vast majority of that above is something I could have found just as easily by filtering Corporate, and it doesn't even have a nice summary of Crywolf's conclusions at the end. I suppose if it's a comparison she's after, that's nice...but it needn't take more than a few minutes; he only has like eleven posts and they're not that big. I'd still like her to answer the question Patrick originally posed about what games led her to state that "I have always seen scum try to take over the town early to try to win it as early as possible" in her 255.

Hmm. What led you to choose to PBP Corporate and Simpor specifically?

Don't mind q21's Fuzzyvote, especially seeing him popping in just to respond to that without commenting on current events. Having said that, I'm curious what his opinion of Tisp is, considering his stated reason.

[Ether]

I understood Simpor's ninth post perfectly. It's scummy.

Crywolf: you have accepted that I am a pro-town towngoer who glows radiantly with towniness and has only the best interests of the town at heart (y/n). We'll go forward from there.

In the meantime, though...Crywolf's not really especially high on my List. My top two are Simpor and Tisp, who have both been lurking, so I don't actually have updates there. Looking forward to post-Thanksgiving stuff.

[Ether]

I find myself blanking out Corporate's own actions...I really distrust his wagon, though, and I think he's probably town thanks to that. Meh.

crywolf20084 - Aceagain - Simpor =

Potential Lurk / Inactive

MOST

You're voting someone who you've stated you find more anti-town than scummy, and have not been looking people you actually find scummy. What is this definition of "lurk" that you do not qualify for?

As of right now however; I don't believe it is right to make a case against Ether when corp, simpor and crywolf are acting far worse.

And I really don't like how you keep downplaying "far worse."

[Ether]

Crywolf: you have accepted that I am a pro-town towngoer who glows radiantly with towniness and has only the best interests of the town at heart (y/n). We'll go forward from there.

[Ether]

In that case, your answer to my question is n (y/n).

[Ether]

Okay, then.

Please state your opinion of Simpor's ninth post now.

Please cite the games you've played/read that gave you impression that scum are more likely to try to control the town. Do not stall any longer, and kindly explain why you have ignored my and Patrick's questioning this far. Thank you.

I do not like that you are suddenly supposedly listening to me and expressing suspicions of the guy I've been pressuring, and are in fact not mentioning me directly despite my place on his wagon, and have PBP'd him but not me, but are not willing to vote him. This is not a question; you are not expected to respond. But you can if you'd like to.

Tisp, what do you think of Ether's actions? Why are you voting someone you merely view as anti-town, without looking for people you actually find scummy? What is that definition of "lurk" that you do not qualify for? Why do you keep downplaying "far worse?"

Why won't you respond to me? ._.

[Ether]

Mizzy, are you complaining about the derailed Corpwagon? You should come vote Simpor with us.

Crywolf: like I said, I don't get

why

people do PBPs, let alone in the manner you do, but have fun.

Can you link to completed games that made you think scum are more likely to lead the town?

You have

still

not answered this.

i started well? what about all the stuff thats going on up there about you? and you bring me back into this? i think everyone already knows im an ass, captain obvious. what about you?

What is there to comment? No one else have picked up Ethers opinion.

Pointing out something which Corporate should comment on. Perfectly valid. This then degenerates into an utterly moronic tangent against me without a single valid point.

And her reasons where:

Not all questions are pro-town. It is not a responsibility as a townie to vocally seek out power roles.

• But not asking wolf who started it... that is strange, and such have GC stated:
  

  While scummish, I don't find it worthy of a vote compared to Mizzy, corp or - if I was to just look at people who were throwing out guesses as to who has power roles - wolf herself.

  First off, he doesn't actually address his fishing; he just tries to deflect it by asserting that Crywolf had done the same thing. But she

  hadn't;

  she was just trying to maintain some petty moral high ground over me when I was harassing her about her activity. And I

  had

  already covered this in 207.

And I really hate the fear-mongering generalization you put into your defense.

Actually, I don't get why he quoted this, either. He doesn't actually provide a defense against it.

She asked a question in a rude way, I made a rude response. Simple as that.

My question about Ped was perfectly polite. My question about his fishing was ruder, because it's bad play.

And pretty much all Ped's done is agree with me, and I'm tied for highest on your list. So yeah.

Ok, I have you high up on my scum list, so you are voting for me...

This is both an ad hominem and a strawman. He takes the time to highlight that I am aware that he expressed some idiot suspicion of me, and uses this to try and paint my vote as pure OMGUS. He ignores my actual point about the fishiness of his opinion of Ped.

polly want a cracker?

That was a very helpful comment...

Wrapping up this noble effort to improve Corporate's play.

So that should clear things up. ^_^

[Ether]

It is absolutely beyond me why this man is not dead yet.

[Ether]

If I had any idea what you just said, it would probably be wrong.

[Ether]

Crywolf: although I didn't read the game you linked to, I did run some calculations on the postcounts. (I can post this in full if you'd like: as a summary, the average postcount of a townie who lived to endgame was 48; the average for a scumbag was 47. You pushed up the scum average by being the highest poster; the other two scum both posted less than average. Nonetheless...I'm surprised.) This is just postcount, and it could misrepresent the amount of scum-leading actually going on, but I feel too lazy to look into that.

Er. That's not how it usually works?

[Ether]

Typing before a class. Rushed.

Crywolf strikes me as town who realized deep in her heart that I was telling the truth but is too proud to admit it. I can try to defend her more later, but long story short, I'm just not feeling it.

Like I said, the power role sentiment seems vaguely familiar but I'm not sure where from. But it wasn't in question form, and no one could possibly expect me to react to it in a way that betrayed my role at all. Simpor's question could have been harmful, because it both encouraged Crywolf to look, and could have said something about

her

role.

The bit about there being more going on in her subconscious than she's willing to say also explains the change of heart on Simpor. Meh.

Technically

that

wasn't a "too townie" fallacy, though I'm sure I've myself up for some of those as well with my brilliant blazing towniness. (The fallacy wouldn't be "Ether's calling herself town," but instead "Ether is scumhunting and inhibiting lurking and actively participating in the discussion and she is totally awesome and it's fairly obvious that she's trying to lull us into a false sense of security.")

And Simpor's most recent posts are super weak. I don't blame her for her vote at all.



First off, I don't think Crywolf was actually fishing; second, this doesn't cover why it's okay for him to ask. (But you agree later that the fact he asked was scummy, so fair enough.)

I do see what he did there. But I was perfectly polite about Ped, so the correct abrasive response would be, "I could ask you, why the hell do you care if I care if Crywolf thinks I have a power role?" Instead, he tried to make my soft question seem ridiculous, and not draw any more attention to his bad one than he had to. He

knew

it was bad.

The fact that it was a general statement that is, generally, true is what

makes

it a scummy strawman when he tries to play that card in an instance when it isn't true, instead of following the actual case.

You've also missed other cases against Simpor. Additional cases can be found here, here, and by filtering all his posts. (God dammit education. I could have found out how to link to that if I'd had time.)

This doesn't answer your scumbuddies question. Um, Tisp and Fuzzyman are good places to start. I don't think Empking's scum with him unless Simpor's scum role is really really cool; there's something I'm going off of memory with this that I'll check back on later. Independently, sure. Your own post defending Simpor bothers me a bit, actually.

Empking is funny. He will also most likely be totally useless, so why do I feel like I've won some kind of bet? I just hope Patrick appreciates the humor as much as I do. Wherever he is.

[Ether]

Curious. Canary, are you at all convinced by my defense of Crywolf, or did Simpor overtake her purely on his own merit?

Simpor, claim.

[Ether]

Oh. Canary is a reference to Green Crayons' AIM screen name.

Mister Lolipedo-kun is Ped.

[Ether]

Hey, Empking. Could I get a full List?

[Ether]

I don't. When I was recruiting you to replace in, I was in a sort of "replacement wars" state of mind where Charter would never quickly find someone halfway competent without my influence...so this is probably a bit more humorous to me than it should be.

[Ether]

I will

unvote

, but I would like this day to end fairly soon.

[Ether]

Pretty sure I'm just giving my fingers some exercise here; I don't want to sleep.

I'm not under pressure. There's, like...you and Empking, but I don't take either of you seriously.

I'm not seeing the strawman you accused me of, but I responded to Canary in 352.

I will

unvote

, but I would like this day to end fairly soon.

This I was very suprised to see, Ether making an unvote. Why Ether? I can only see one reason for you to make an unvote ( after you die Simpor, die case) and that is to say at day 2 (when I will probably be dead) "hey, I was not totally sure about my case against Simpor. Look at my unvote! Why would I otherwise make an unvote?"

As much as I would enjoy seeing you dead, Patrick wants some extra daytime and I'm inclined to give it to him. Obviously if you're lynched I'll be taking credit regardless of your alignment or my physical place on the wagon. I think I made my sentiments extremely clear in the post you quoted.

I fail to see where I said you shouldn't comment on my reasons; I said you

didn't

comment on them. Not just two, in fact; you didn't provide a legitimate argument against any of the three.

I did do a brief number analysis on the game Crywolf linked to, and I didn't believe she'd be able to provide examples at all.

[Ether]

Empking: put those in order. Elaborate on...well, all of them.

First quote: I could have answered much better. I did so but much later.
Second quote: I believe I did answer that. And I did answer your question later down in the thread..
Third reason: Come on, what am I suppose to answer to an OMGUS reason? You wrote it yourself. "and I'm tied for highest on your list. So yeah." Discussion a reason like that is just ridicules.

Where?

Where?

This is both an ad hominem and a strawman. He takes the time to highlight that I am aware that he expressed some idiot suspicion of me, and uses this to try and paint my vote as pure OMGUS. He ignores my actual point about the fishiness of his opinion of Ped.

Obviously if you're lynched I'll be taking credit regardless of your alignment or my physical place on the wagon.

I think I made my sentiments extremely clear in the post you quoted.

Of course you have to write that now, otherwise you would confirm that you are a scum.

You're not even trying, man.

I find it somewhat odd that Crywolf has neither snapped at my hypothesis nor tearfully confessed to it.

[Ether]

Heh.

[Ether]

vote: Simpor

, yeah.

Crywolf, if you're still going back and forth on me I'm going to need those thoughts you promised.

Fuzzyman, which of Simpor's points did you actually like? I did

not

restate the same reasons over and over, and I do not believe Simpor has ever successfully countered a single one.

Empking's case against me is also absolutely beyond my understanding; rather than deconstruct it, let's apply a bit of meta. Filter my posts in Pick Your Poison 3. These two posts in particular should be good examples of my rampant egotism.

[Ether]

You've said in the past that you found me to be townish; I fail to see how someone defending a townish player implies that the two are scumbuddies. I think that the fact that I backed off of Mizzy is rather thin, and it's counterintuitive that you pointed it out and then voted Corporate, but I suppose there's not much else I can say about that. The fact that Simpor implicated me as a scumbuddy to Mizzy is a coincidence--though it's true that you only have my word for that--and it's scummy that Simpor is trying to use it to paint all the attacks I made against him after that point as OMGUS. Those three are all either light or outright idiotic; did I miss anything?

Are you going to argue with my assertion that I didn't repeat my many varied cases that Simpor has never been able to logically stand up to or not?

I will

unvote

, but I would like this day to end fairly soon.

This I was very suprised to see, Ether making an unvote. Why Ether? I can only see one reason for you to make an unvote ( after you die Simpor, die case) and that is to say at day 2 (when I will probably be dead) "hey, I was not totally sure about my case against Simpor. Look at my unvote! Why would I otherwise make an unvote?"

As much as I would enjoy seeing you dead, Patrick wants some extra daytime and I'm inclined to give it to him. Obviously if you're lynched I'll be taking credit regardless of your alignment or my physical place on the wagon. I think I made my sentiments extremely clear in the post you quoted.

Does my 381 seriously come off to you as, "I am starting to lose faith in Simpscum?"

Like,

seriously?

What's your read of Patrick?

[Ether]

Tisp is lurking again.

[Ether]

How so?

Simpor:

And Ehter, still no response from my post 17. Respond now, please. You have responded that there are other "cases" against me, linking to you own posts, which are taking up the same originally reasons. So nothing new in them.

Fuzzyman: Cool. Good point.

I really like his defense against the "other cases" case.

Ether: Uh, no. That's not a good point.

I did

not

restate the same reasons over and over, and I do not believe Simpor has ever successfully countered a single one.

Fuzzy: Oh. Okay, yeah, it's not.

A lot of what he has said was indeed, as you say, painting it OMGUS.

Ether: ...er.

Wow. Mizzy, tell him it wasn't.

Why do you have a problem with my unvote but not Patrick's?

[Ether]

What was sarcastic?

I also unvoted to get Simpor off of -1, because you voted him immediately after Patrick unvoted.

[Ether]

I probably wouldn't fight a Fuzzylynch tomorrow, but I'd still prefer Tisp, I think.

I have done this a couple times in previous games, and it detrimented the town in both.

Links. I am also curious to know why you were not already aware that I was producing new cases.

[Ether]

I understand Empking's original question. I don't get why my unvote should be more or less cool than Patrick's, either. (I'd personally have said both unvotes were null, but Fuzzyman called Patrick's cool and mine a sign that I was trying to distance myself from a Simptown-wagon, which is obviously a double standard.)

(shrug)

[Ether]

Heh.

Corporate, if you vote Simpor now, we can probably lynch Fuzzyman on Day 3 or so.

[Ether]

On a similar note:

Crywolf, if you're still going back and forth on me I'm going to need those thoughts you promised.

[Ether]

Crywolf: Ah. What about everybody else?

I did post a meta defense back in 413. On top of, y'know, the fact that that totally isn't scummy at all and in one instance you and Empking cited it was intentionally overblown for effect.

And that it's true.

Fuzzyman: You were, um, mafia when you tangled yourself up in Newbie 628. Will probably look at the other 628 shortly.

[Ether]

...

[Ether]

Nope. Still wrong. I am offended that you would put me on the same tier as Tisp.

[Ether]

Outside of deadline, I refuse to vote anyone except Simpor or Tisp. I would settle for Fuzzyman at deadline, but he's peripheral at best.

[Ether]

This day has now officially gone on waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

[Ether]

Also, I'm taking Tisp's replacement request as an admission that he agrees he wasn't posting enough.

[Ether]

Before post 506.

[Ether]

I don't think we need a deadline, though I don't care either way enough to fight one. I was just indirectly telling Mizzy and Crywolf that they were wrong.

Corporate: what sort of motivation do you see for Fuzzyman's bullshit around the Simpwagon that puts him as scum without Simpor also being scum? (Assuming that's why you're voting him.)

[Ether]

Hi, Mykonian. I'm totally onto you, but you should bus Simpor anyway.

Corporate, that seems blatantly untrue. Fuzzyman got his flak for moving to you when he could have just stayed on Simpor, and currently won't vote Simpor, despite that being the easiest way for him to not get lynched.

[Ether]

I assume we have no vig, or it is corporate, otherwise he should have been dead by now.

Why?

Calling yourself town, surves no need, only your need to show you are town.

I disagree. It serves a very clear need of rubbing it in Crywolf's face.

And it is a shame we don't have a vig.

Light fishing. Stop it.

Dislike Mykonian, and Canary's Simpvote still kinda rubs me the wrong way. Not really averse to the Fuzzwagon, either, though; I'm not sure where I stand on much right now. Meh.

[Ether]

And ether, you can prove yourself to be town by hunting scum. If you do that, there is no way the crywolf can get you lynched.

vote: mykonian

Done.

(But what I said about being kinda wishy washy right now stands.)

[Ether]

Aw, Ether is bored with this game? That's my only guess as to what she's not posting

at all

as much.

Meh. I'm burnt out...partially biorhythm, through no fault of anyone, but the mislynch didn't help. I'm actually wavering on Mykonian at this point; both your and Mizzy's votes make me feel extremely uncomfortable. I'm going to

unvote

; I'd like an explanation from you. (If Mykonian thinks I'm looking for an excuse, I could give my own reasons first, but this is more productive. Obv.)

[Ether]

That will hopefully not happen again.

This is mostly a check-in. I'm still not thinking straight in this game; there are a lot of people I seem to be blanking out. (Annoyingly, Fuzzyman and Mykonian are among them.) I'll try breaking out the filter later; my parents have expressed irritation about how late I'm staying up.

The fact that Empking is tunneling on Canary specifically makes it drastically less sinister to me--he's not gonna get lynched like that. A part of me does worry that it's a ploy to avoid other topics. I'd still guess that he's town; his wagon doesn't really sit well with me, and there's some WIFOM about how my meta defense did get him off my back. (At the time, I interpretted q21's 466 as saying that Empking use obfuscating stupidity as a scum tactic--I didn't check up on Mini 617, but apparently he was town. Note to self: filter 617, compare Empking's tunnelvision between the two games.)

I like Canary's and Mizzy's reactions to the fast Empwagon.

Still overloaded with work but I wanted to chime in. I feel like mykonian is overthinking things, pointing fingers a little early, and in general, is seriously bugging me. His role speculation is infuriating, as is his implied viewpoint that his opinion is clearly the way things should be done.

This feels odd. My name could have fit into like 3/4ths of that.

[Ether]

Still overloaded with work but I wanted to chime in. I feel like mykonian is overthinking things, pointing fingers a little early, and in general, is seriously bugging me. His role speculation is infuriating, as is his implied viewpoint that his opinion is clearly the way things should be done.

This feels odd. My name could have fit into like 3/4ths of that.

Perhaps that should tell you something about your play, then? Plus, it's difficult to attack a player who isn't around.

I meant early on, when I very much was around.

[Ether]

Prod acknowledged.

Filtered Mykonian in some completed newbie game; was annoyed to find that he seems to be competent as scum. (I'm horrible at filter metas; when I say "competent as scum," I mean, "cares enough about a game to bump it when it's inactive." Hey, I can't do that myself.) Regardless of Fuzzyman's alignment, it bugs me the degree to which he bloated up the case on Fuzzyman in 564. Most egregiously:

As y'all have probably figured out, I'm willing to go to Simp if we're deadlined.

k) 484: states he also

wants to

lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)

Fuzzyman picked up his flak in the first place because he kept edging out of the Simpwagon in shady ways...it's fairly obvious that that's not the direction he was hoping to go in.

Not wild about his behavior around Corporate, either.

Agree that Mizzy's 594 is all oddly general, though. Wheeeeeee I'm just cementing myself this sucks.

I like that Canary's 601 contains a scumgroup.

As for lighting a smile on my face: the thought that my odds are not 1/8 is not entirely unpleasant.

I don't get Crywolf's town reads on Mykonian and Tisp throughout the course of the game. Crywolf, explain?

Man, this post is all stream of consciousness. I feel surprisingly optimistic--typically when I fall behind this far I do not catch up and, deep down, I see that coming--but the end product here is still gonna be all graceless and long.

Fuzzyman tells Mizzy to get replaced in 619. I'm not sure what to make of this one; I'm just noting it.

Ooh, ah, I'm not sure what to make of this one. I'm just noting it! I am embracing this "stream of consciousness" business whole-heartedly now.

Empking's case on Canary and debate with Fuzzyman still make my eyes blur over. Oh, well. I'm assuming Fuzzyman's defenses of Canary are what prompted Mykonian's unvote in 635. This immediately makes me think to Canary's conclusion that Fuzzyman was aiding him superfluously. Part of me worries that I'm just nodding along at this hour...like I said, I barely followed the Empking/Fuzzyman exchange myself. Eh. I want Mykonian to elaborate on what he liked. (I acknowledge his 639.)

Fuzzyman/Empking in 640-644 does manage to stick within my attention span and is kinda weird, yeah.

Empwagon still freaks me out. I briefly filtered Mini 617 before starting this stream and remember close to nothing; now I find myself wanting to hurry up to my next post to see if q21 does my homework for me anyway.

Ether is an above average scum hunter. She is obvtown.

I think my track record is secretly below average. I'm just really good at making sense.

I blanked out over the page 31 Fuzzyman/Empking argument again, but apparently it was important. Then I blanked out again trying to figure out why.

Okay, the fact that it's now past four in the morning is bothering me. Would it be more responsible to get through the last 25ish posts, or to try to get eight hours of sleep (or seven hours of sleep and breakfast)? On contemplation, I'm going to take the immature approach and get back to this in the afternoon.

[Ether]

So the rest of the game is boring except that I agree with Canary that Fuzzyman seems to have unvoted based on two points that don't seem to have been related to Fuzzyman's original vote. Anticlimactic. He hasn't explained that yet, and he should.

Mykonian: filtering you in the newbie didn't do much except dishearten me a little, let's move along. What bugged me about your stance on Corporate was the contrast between your "he's town" stance and your 589 insinuation that he'd slipped and cleared Corporate--the stretch would always be off, but it was weirder because you said you thought he was town. I'm going to assume that your unvoting Fuzzyman was solely based on the fact that he was posting at all and was unrelated to his Canary defense.

I think some of your points against Fuzzyman are valid; some are meh. But K stands out to me as an outright lie. Fuzzyman refused to vote Simpor over Corporate at a point where the switch would have been simpler to make; he only made that post because of Canary's hypothetical question about a deadline situation. It bothers me a

lot

that you interpretted this; it strongly implies to me that you're less interested in determining Fuzzyman's alignment and more interested in pumping up a case on him. And...you haven't addressed this specific point of mine, just argued that that wasn't your only post. I'm going to put my

vote: mykonian

back.

Incidentally, what are your opinions of Crywolf and q21?

I'd still like Crywolf to explain her read on Mykonian.

Mizzy and Empking, who are your top three?

Fuzz and Emp are still my top two with a slowly rising Ether. I don't like how she went from total and constant activity with constant harking on the lurkers, to none. Hypocritical in my book.

(The lurker point is fair on its own--I very much believe that lurking is a scumtell. But it's kind of a running gag that I'm a hypocrite and proud.

Read: I can cite posts where I say that a.) hypocrisy is not a scumtell and b.) I hate hypocrites.

)

[Ether]

I know what you were getting at. As it happens, I disagree with the general pattern: something I've been saying since 540. Fuzzyman's vote in the end does bother me a bit. I think Simpor was at a point where if Fuzzyman hadn't hammered, someone else would, but I didn't get the impression that Fuzzyman realized this--I do think, regardless of his alignment, he was worried for his own neck at that point.

And I see what you're trying to do. The fact is that I don't have a town read on Fuzzyman. I think your case is sinister regardless of his alignment, and K stands out to me as evidence of this. You're still trying to dodge around that subject.

[Ether]

Empking, would you elaborate on your thoughts on everyone who is not Canary?

As y'all have probably figured out, I'm willing to go to Simp if we're deadlined.

k) 484: states he also

wants to

lynch simpor (do you really think we don't know that you don't care who is the lynch, as long it is not you?)

Fuzzyman picked up his flak in the first place because he kept edging out of the Simpwagon in shady ways...it's fairly obvious that that's not the direction he was hoping to go in.

I see K as evidence that you're framing things as evidence of your pattern when they blatantly are nothing of the sort. I think I've been clear on this point.

Meh. I don't want to accept Fuzzyman's innocent, but I'll

unvote

. I don't encourage anyone to counterclaim; I wouldn't feel comfortable outguessing a mod who puts the word "Cops," plural, in the game's title.

I...actually think Fuzzyman's telling the truth. There are just some things about his behavior that Fuzzscum wouldn't explain while Fuzzcop would. Aaaaaaaaaaand of course I'm suddenly paranoid about Corporate's experience all over again now.

(And a biased little part of me thinks it'd be cool if there are multiple cops and Fuzzyman's insane so I can still be right about stuff. ¬_¬)

[Ether]

Generic theory-wise, I consider breadcrumbs a waste of effort unless they reveal flavor. I find Mykonian's timing pretty townish, though.

I don't really have a concrete case, but I'm going to

vote: crywolf20084

.

[Ether]

The waiting for a prod before posting thing.

I have deep-seated emotional problems.

[Ether]

That's stupid. I think she's probably scum, and my vote both demonstrates this view and draws attention to her. But yeah, it's tentative.

[Ether]

I don't follow.

[Ether]

I barely remember the reasons behind my Day 1 stances anymore. I think I was biased by my Simphate--it didn't make sense that Simpscum would try to fish on a scumbuddy's power role reads when he could just wait for night--and came up with a pet theory to get her out of the equation. But that's not the only explanation, and she feels funny to me now. (shrug)

There's also a bit of nightkill WIFOM, though to be fair, Patrick is a lightning rod anyway.

You sound annoyed. Why?

[Ether]

I would contest that a.) it was weird and b.) she hasn't done anything noticeable since.

[Ether]

You went from being way lower on my scum list to the top. You voted me without a case, and I have a very big feeling that you're scum. You went from leading the town, all while you kept saying you were town, and then you've turned over a lurker leaf. Now you are (thankfully) back and with this BS vote on me, while most have decided that I have actively been actively scum hunting. I have this major scum vibe coming from you and I would like to see you get lynched.

This is where my vote is gonna stay until you're gone.

Pointless flourishing. You have a big feeling that I'm scum that you're not gonna back, so I'll return the favor. The town agreed yesterday that you were fit to lead them, and you kept saying you were town. Today you lurked for a bit, but anyway, your vote now sucks. The town agrees that I have been actively scumhunting and I am totally actively scumhunting you are so wrong about me die scum die. More flourishing.

Fo' sho.

It's noticeable, yeah, but not in a good way.

She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

To be fair, I'm pretty much running on gut at this point myself. I figure Fuzzyman, Mykonian and Corporate are probably all town and ought to be left alone for a bit even if there's the chance they aren't. You're kinda bad but you did get that big wagon yesterday that I should probably read first, and q21's kind of in my "maybe" pile but Crywolf bugs me more anyway. That is pretty much my entire line of thought.

And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Pffphphffphft.

[Ether]

Bullshit. I spent the other half the game producing like half its content: even after being inactive for a month, I

still

have the highest post count total of any role (adding replacements together) in this game. I have most certainly not done "very little" here. I've deteriorated almost everywhere; there's an ongoing game that I actually

did

flake from around this time, as well as the C Invitational a few months ago. And after Fuzzyman's and Mykonian's claims, I'm kind of shaken up, and it's damn lucky that I've gotten enough of my grip back to

have

"gut" to run on instead. Which isn't a bad thing anyway.

Incidentally, I saw Canary viewing the thread earlier and I would very much like to know what he's thinking.

[Ether]

What I'm saying is that you do need to get back on track. I don't like seeing votes from nearly pure-gut from you.

I am back on track. I'd give high odds that my List is the exact same now as it would have been had I been more active. If you want, I could add on top of my previous "process of elimination" clause that I feel Crywolf's votes all alternate between reactive OMGUS and opportunistic bandwagoning, but it's still my gut that makes me dislike it. (shrug)

What's your own vote for, anyway? We all know how I feel about hypocrites.

crywolf I could go for. Mizzy I could go for. In that order. I don't know if I could see them being scum together, though.

I could. Mizzy's Cryvote gives me some pause, but when she originally posted that List it was four people with Fuzzyman and Mykonian safely nestled in there as well. (Credit for voting Crywolf over Empking, though. Hmm--Mizzy, what changed between those two lists?) Her view that I'm bussing Crywolf is just ridiculous.

(I say this, but I still haven't reread the Mizwagon.)

[Ether]

Considered it. Don't find it likely.

What do you think of the me/Crywolf/Mizzy spat?

[Ether]

What he said--the claims have nothing to do with Empking. Why are you patronizing me?

Try reading my post.

Soooooo...process of elimination, distinguishing a specific target to vote through your gut views of me, q21 and Crywolf.

Yeah. Me too.

[Ether]

I still prefer my Cryvote, but I think they're both scum, so eh. What made you find them an unlikely scumpair in 855?

[Ether]

I just typed out a nice logical paragraph detailing the natural extensions to a point of view which I myself don't agree with. Long story short:

q21, why are you voting Mykonian instead of Corporate?

[Ether]

I don't see why Mykonian has ranked me above Crywolf; the only point where he posts our actions in contrast is the OMGUS thing. I had a town gut read on Crywolf

a month ago

, when I didn't think she could be scum with Simpor. Circumstances changed. You could try to paint it as preemptive OMGUS, but it doesn't seem fair to restrict me from attacking someone the instant it lays suspicion on me. And I'm under the impression that Empking would have been at the top of her List at that point anyway.

Crywolf's PBPs were not "nice." I "questioned" them because they didn't provide any new content, as I said at the time. I could have filtered Corporate and Simpor for that. However, at the time, I pointed it out as polite advice. A towngoer might theoretically derive value out of an exercise like that, but people reading the summaries wouldn't.

why is crywolf the only one that thinks it weird that fuzzy kept a guilty for himself? post 832.

It's not weird. She was just trying to throw doubt onto him. I'll justify why, unless you'd like Fuzzyman to do so instead.

I haven't the slightest idea why I'm still being attacked for calling myself town. It's null. Seriously. (Actually, it's a sign of me having fun with a game. I don't find being scum fun. Ether calling herself town is townish.)

rather than deconstruct it, let's apply a bit of meta. Filter my posts in Pick Your Poison 3. These two posts in particular should be good examples of my rampant egotism.

Filter Patrick's posts for more even more of that sentiment. (We've been in like 8 games together, plus he's modded 3 games I played in, two of them to endgame, plus we talk like every day. He's qualified to meta me.)

I don't see why you keep drawing attention to me prodding people. I'm not even sure if you're trying to paint it as good or bad. I mean, you make it

sound

bad, but prods are inherently

good

, so I'm sure you understand why I'm confused here. (And even when I said that you sometimes bumped the thread as scum, I also said lightly that I personally didn't possess the capacity.)

Most of my questioning was for people on my peripheral; I found Simpor and Tisp obvscum, and I think I was fairly clear on that matter. (On that note, I started attacking you because you replaced Tisp.)

I was mostly skipping around here; I probably missed a bit. Feel free to draw attention to that bit.

[Ether]

I call myself town because I find it fun to do so. I like having fun.

I

am

town because I was the most active player in the game on Day 1, and am retaking that position again now that I've recovered. I'm town because I obviously care about this game. I don't invest this much as scum--you can say what you want about how

you

won't use meta, but it's an effective tool. Patrick and I have already done the work for you, and you're playing suboptimally if you're going to willfully toss that aside.

Hell, you said yourself in 567 that I can "prove [myself] to be town by hunting scum," and I've very much been doing that. (That was, incidentally, the reason for my specific timing on voting you. Partially because it was evidence that you hadn't been following the game, on top of my previous Tisphate, mostly because it was funny to vote you at that exact moment.) There was a lull in Day 2, but I'm back now, and I assure you my alignment didn't change overnight.

I don't understand what you're saying with me versus Crywolf. You're talking about today, right? With you and Fuzzyman as town, there was no vote I could have placed that

would

have been a natural follow up, and voting was still the most effective statement I could make about my current beliefs. Bandwagoning is one thing, but I don't see why it would have been better play to foreshadow a future vote for someone who wasn't actually under much suspicion at the time, or scummy that I didn't.

(Also, I would say that Crywolf's vote

was

OMGUS, and in a bad way, but I hate having OMGUS debates because I use a nonstandard definition for it and keep having to throw disclaimers in when I talk about it on most other people's terms. I assume you're insinuating that I'm scum with Mizzy, since that's the only way that worrying about her interpretations makes sense.)

[Ether]

My role PM does in fact refer to me as town, but I'm trying to give useful answers here.

I disappeared because I fell into a spiral after Simpor's alignment came up--I find it difficult to post when I don't know where I stand on anything, and even more difficult to catch up once I've initially fallen behind. After doing the latter, I hated myself too much to resume caring again. That's a chronic flaw in my personality--I've already cited other games that I'd also slipped in from around that time. After the prod, I pulled myself together, but I think that's the first time I've ever done that anywhere to this magnitude.

That is how much I love you guys.

What I'm saying is that you do need to get back on track.

Make up your mind. Now that I'm thinking straight again, you're instead trying to take a "No you

were

gone that is permanently unforgiveable" position.

And you still haven't answered the question about your stance on Empking.

[Ether]

I voted Crywolf because, after thinking things over, I found her the most suspicious. I don't see why you'd have found me saying, "I find Crywolf the most suspicious" and waiting a post to vote her as more preferable (or less OMGUSy) to just voting her immediately. I can always change my mind.

Voting without spelling out a case is not, in general, an action scum are more or less likely to take. Unexplained voting is a useful tactic that gets reactions, and often speaks to people better than a large case can. Your tellbook is bad.

I linked to

two specific posts

in PYP3. It would not be that difficult for you to read them. You're just being stubborn.

That comparison is stupid on a number of levels. First, you're saying that you being town implies that you will post your name--not the other way around. That just means that I should lynch you if you

don't

do it. Second, your example is a quantifiable behavior; you could easily adapt your play as scum without batting an eyelash. I simply don't have it in me to spam everyone with interrogation when I already know who the scum are anyway. I'd happily change that if I could--I can't. However, if Canary were to tell me that your behavior followed a general pattern that you followed as town and did not follow as scum then I would definitely factor that into my reads.

Meta-defense is not bad, particularly in certain instances where I'm just nullifying your bogus scumtells.

Mykonian: You keep calling yourself town; I think that that makes you more likely to be scum.
Ether: That is a behavior I am not more likely to perform as scum.
(Patrick: That is a behavior she is not more likely to perform as scum.)
Mykonian: Citing meta to defend yourself is bad; I will choose to ignore that. Your constant references to your towniness make you more likely to be scum.

As scum, I do not, as it happens, know how to be protown without endangering my win condition. It's not fair to say that everything I could possibly do is null at best just because I'm experienced. You're confusing me with Glork.

Q21--here's the paragraph I typed up earlier:

If Mykonian is lying, Corporate must be scum (and exactly one of them would be immune to investigations), or else he could sit back and push a Corplynch, and possibly even score a Fuzzlynch immediately after for the win. However, Corpscum does not necessarily imply Mykscum. Corporate's role would also be more likely to be informative: if he's town, don't lynch Mykonian; if he's a goon, Mykonian is guaranteed to be the play. CorpGF is the only possibility that doesn't tell us anything about Mykonian. And hey, if he comes up godfather, we just lynched the godfather, so good job there.

So it's Corporate you'd want to vote here.

I see where your dissent is; I think Option 1 is still somewhat viable if Corporate is a godfather, whereas I find Option 4 extremely difficult to believe. I just can't see Mykscum claiming like that, right off the bat, if Corporate was town. I could see CorpGF in a pinch, but like I've said, I think #3 is the most likely.

[Ether]

Both alignments would eventually have to give a reason. But in the meantime, other players should try to think about what those reasons are. I have given reasons--process of elimination, all her many many bandwagony (and OMGUSy) votes, reactive behavior...and, well, gut. Gut was definitely a factor. My vote was a way of expressing my opinion, not a sly attempt to slip onto an already-active bandwagon unnoticed. I don't see the sinister motive you do. (There are very few instances in which I'd vote someone who had recently accumulated votes from other people as well--I always feel better when my votes make a statement.)

The reactions I cited are a "you try to feel out where I got my position from and then I try to feel out your efforts to see things from my position" sort of thing. Like I said, I don't think unexplained votes are scummy, so I don't agree that this boils down to "oh, I was doing something scummy for the reactions!" And it should be obvious that I would not hammer a claimed cop without a damn good reason--being a cop in an open setup with only one cop

might

qualify, but of course the hammer wouldn't be a reaction thing then. I agree that that's making it absurd.

[Ether]

I don't know. I was delirious from my 20 page straight through read. Mizzy's vote push for crywolf helps this notion for me.

To be fair, when Mizzy was scum in Packrats, a game I modded last year, she was extremely hesitant to vote scumbuddies, even when they were a lot more screwed than she was. I'm not sure how her scum play's evolved since then. I know it's a little hypocritical, but I still find it difficult to see either as town. Meh.

[Ether]

Crywolf is now at -1.

I'm not going to claim (or softclaim either vanilla or non-vanilla).

[Ether]

I kind of want to lynch Mizzy after all. ¬_¬

[Ether]

Hmm.

unvote; vote: Mizzy

I'm typing a paragraph out detailing exactly why I just did that, but I think we'd all rather see Crywolf post some original content first.

[Ether]

And now, after shutting off my laptop, going to bed and then rushing back a few minutes later like three times so far on this fine premorning, I am going to

actually

sleep.

[Ether]

Oh. Not a robber.

I'm still waiting on Crywolf, but one of the sentences I typed last night has been further justified.

And while Ether and Mizzy stand high on my scumlist, recent events kind of contradict that.

Ugh.

Now

what was I doing independently?

[Ether]

Not a robber.

(That is, default, presumably a guilty to you.)

[Ether]

unvote; vote: Mizzy

I'm typing a paragraph out detailing exactly why I just did that, but I think we'd all rather see Crywolf post some original content first.

Presumably spelling out exactly what

you

dislike about Mizzy, but on top of that, I'd like to see all your thoughts since 849. Produce as much content as possible.

[Ether]

Mizzy's attacks on me are very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

but there was nothing exceptionally agressive, no a single strong attack. That way, you are acting the same as Ether: you look protown, you ask questions, you make small attacks here and there, but nothing real.

The posts he make I can say the same about as Ether's general play. It seems protown, but if he is scum, I'm sure he could do this without harming his buddy's.

...

Ether, I'm too lazy to check myself, but have you ever commented on the inactivity of Q21?

Don't think so.

(I should probably say at some point that I think q21 is probably scum. This is another thing I won't get into yet.)

[Ether]

Have it your way. Mizzy's

suspicion

of me is very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

I will admit that Crywolf's behavior--I completely agree that she's not looking for scum--is not making me feel better about my current outlook on things.

[Ether]

...

Crywolf, I'm going to assume from your ScumChat activity that you can get back to us now.

[Ether]

You can do better than that.

[Ether]

By my definition, it's totally OMGUS. But considering I'm her lifeline at this point, I highly doubt that it says much about her alignment either way here. (shrug)

Crywolf, dear, while it would certainly be nice for you to go through the things people have said about you and counter them, that should not be your

first

priority. When you have produced new analysis of an acceptable quality that tells me that you are actually putting thought into this goddamn game--not only around Mizzy, but that would certainly help--I will save your sorry ass myself.

[Ether]

You're cheapening my epiphany, man. ._.

[Ether]

I've been cursing for the last few days anyway, so I'm not really sure how to articulate that my annoyance is

increasing

, but it is.

[Ether]

I've been cursing for the last few days anyway, so I'm not really sure how to articulate that my annoyance is increasing, but it is.

I have literally banged my head into my desk out of sheer annoyance. More than once.

Aww. ♥

I'm seriously getting tempted to give Crywolf an ultimatum, but everything

except

her own behavior in this game just adds up better if she's town. Sigh.

[Ether]

So because I clearly haven't taken enough drastic measures like Mizzy yet:

Mykonian, remind me what it is you dislike about me that I haven't already successfully countered/demonstrated to be a town tell for me.

[Ether]

Mizzy's 940 is how she always talks; I wouldn't worry about it either way. Her actually saying "go ahead and lynch me" does set me further on edge.

Ether: your crywolf vote without reasons, and I have to see what you come up with on mizzy. I don't know if this is a scumtell now...

Both alignments would eventually have to give a reason. But in the meantime, other players should try to think about what those reasons are. I have given reasons--process of elimination, all her many many bandwagony (and OMGUSy) votes, reactive behavior...and, well, gut. Gut was definitely a factor. My vote was a way of expressing my opinion, not a sly attempt to slip onto an already-active bandwagon unnoticed. I don't see the sinister motive you do. (There are very few instances in which I'd vote someone who had recently accumulated votes from other people as well--I always feel better when my votes make a statement.)

The reactions I cited are a "you try to feel out where I got my position from and then I try to feel out your efforts to see things from my position" sort of thing. Like I said, I don't think unexplained votes are scummy, so I don't agree that this boils down to "oh, I was doing something scummy for the reactions!" And it should be obvious that I would not hammer a claimed cop without a damn good reason--being a cop in an open setup with only one cop

might

qualify, but of course the hammer wouldn't be a reaction thing then. I agree that that's making it absurd.

Do you have a problem with any of this?

The longer Crywolf stalls, the more bored I get. Very unfortunate.

[Ether]

yes, kind of.

It

is very general, and even then, I don't know if

that

is conclusive to be scum. I am not completely happy with

it

.

I'm not really clear on what you're mulling over. Elaborate?

My second paragraph was a counterpoint to your trying to make reaction-hunting sound ridiculous; the first was more relevant to the actual vote.

(If you're interested, I could also give you links to more instances of me voting without explanation as town, but that feels like the lazy approach when I could just be chipping away at your mafia theory and enlightening you for future games to come.)

[Ether]

On one hand, maybe this'll spur Crywolf to actually do some shit.

On the other hand, I kinda wish Canary or Fuzzyman would unvote. (I am playing waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of my hand here.)

mostly the first paragraph. There are some general statement that you give as reasons for your vote. Bandwagony, omgusy votes. Reactive behaviour. And if they are true, does it make crywolf scum? If I was scum, a proces of elimination would be quite easy to fake. And gut, well gut as a reason is pretty weak, isn't it?

I cited a pattern that is indeed more likely for scum to follow than town. Clearly, though, I've changed my mind; I think I've seen something even stronger in Mizzy. Process of elimination is still a valid reason, and "if I was scum [...] would be easy to fake" wouldn't make my interpretation any less valid a train of thought for me as town. Gut is

not

a weak reason (especially when it's backed by general patterns like I've pointed out). You aren't being fair here--you're running on confirmation bias at this point. You

want

my behavior to be scummy.

[Ether]

Your effort to discredit me is incorrect. I was wrong about you for the first day of PYP2, when I had never seen you play before and you replaced someone who I had also found scummy; obviously I didn't have to keep trying to read you after Day 1, since you masonized me overnight. In Mini 594, I used my meta from the then-ongoing Packrats to correctly conclude that you were town at the beginning of Day 3, despite your heavy lurking in that game, without giving you significant pressure before that. (It was only after metaing you that I realized by process of elimination that you

had

to be the governor, and, therefore, town.)

[Ether]

Thanks. But filtering Charter's posts here, there's no mention of a deadline.

[Ether]

"Always" is two games, and "start out" is two Day 1s.

Correct. I have not said.

[Ether]

I don't really think that that specific contradiction is scummy; I think this is one of those things that Mizzy seriously believes.

I keep getting the last word on the arguments with Mykonian and then he'll pop back in a few pages and say I'm still scummy without being able to back it up. It's annoying. I'd like to get that over with once and for all.

[Ether]

I could see either q21 or Ether having hammered while you did a read through.

You misread me. I'd probably

enjoy

hammering her, but alas, I wouldn't actually do it.

And how do you suggest this would come about?

Keep confronting him again every time he fails to respond, picking up right from where we left off, until he acknowledges that he's being stubborn, that nothing he finds scummy from me does in fact make more sense under a scum motivation, and he's probably wrong about me. What are you getting at?

[Ether]

Clearly, I'm

not

so sure about Crywolf. But whatever, that last phrase will hold for now.

Bionic, that isn't a good tell.

My last post with the two quotes addressing Canary? I'd like to add a "What are you getting at?" onto both responses, not just the second.

[Ether]

That's his AIM screen name; it's not arbitrary. You clearly understand what I mean, it's what I normally call him, and switching would add some hassle to people searching for mentions of him in my posts--so I apologize, but I have no intention of switching now.

I don't want to get sucked into this any more than strictly necessary, but you're implying that Canary's utility unvote was an attempt to appear town, which lightly implies that you don't think he's really town. I don't think that this is remotely valid indicator of his alignment.

[Ether]

I'm guessing that you're one of those people who doesn't like the use of the word "tell."

[Ether]

Yeah, that was a simulpost; it was meant for Bionic.

I can't really see myself hammering Crywolf. If I did, it would be the conclusion of an ultimatum, so people would be adequately warned and be able to unvote beforehand. But I'm scared that if I set an ultimatum, I actually

would

have to hammer...so even that probably won't happen. But where did you get the idea that I'd hammer Crywolf by surprise?

Ether sits on Canary.

[Ether]

Mykonian and I kind of differ around the specifics. ¬_¬

[Ether]

Eh. I'm a bit looser with the word; anyway, I don't think his unvote says anything about his alignment.

I think that diminishing returns applies for getting information, but persuasion follows a different standard. (Right after I made that post, Mykonian admitted for the first time that he was unable to produce a case on me--justifying my approach.)

[Ether]

If I was to exchange one of them, it would be either to take out Mizzy or CW in order to put in Myk there, since his scum buddy q21 was so keen on fingering him as the GF.

Eh.

(Meh. q21 is the common denominator, and even having said that out loud I still

want

to focus on Mizzy.)

Working on my post right now.

Lady, I have now spent three days of my life playing cryptic because I'm waiting on you, and I am pretty sick of it.

[Ether]

*bites*

[Ether]

Elaborate on your read of Mykonian.

Just so you all know I’m going by person… much easier to find the posts that way.

Good, but I'm gonna want a lot less "responses to questions" and a lot more "reads." Anyone should be able to answer a question in three minutes tops. You also hopefully realize that you will be expected to

remain

active after your catchup work.

I never said that it was a scumtell, I just said you were being one. And it has no bearing on what I think of you.

I have already addressed the bolded part above, and would like to say it again. You were being very pushy on the lurkers day one, and then you in turn went lurking. Apart of my vote on you was because of that, even though you’ve started to post again.

[Ether]

I don't like q21's hammer at all, regardless of Crywolf's alignment. But here's what I was holding back on.

Your lurking hasn't escaped my notice, Crywolf, and it'd make my life a lot fucking easier if I wasn't so worried by Mizzy's behavior toward you. Maybe she had to act different in Packrats because the scum couldn't kill and therefore had to stick together more...dunno, I don't think that's it. Mizzy's stance toward Empking feels off to me, and after trying as hard as she could to dodge the question, her explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. Most of what's kept me thinking Emptown was his wagon, and she wasn't on that, now, was she. The early 2/10 on q21 bothers me a bit as well...there are some things that don't add up that make Mizzy seem more likely to be associated with the other people on my "maybe" list than Crywolf is.

Mizzy's attacks on me were full of shit and I'm not comfortable with the way she voted Crywolf and tried to sling as much

independent

mud at me as possible at the same time. She said that I was "distancing" from Crywolf, but she's never actually bothered to post anything that connected the two of us. And she's been giving me a lot more shit than she has q21.

[This was truer around the time up to when I actually voted Mizzy. Tsk.]

I think she was trying to bump Crywolf off and hope something sticks to me in LyLo.

[Ether]

Obviously the above assumes Crywolf-town; otherwise, I apologize to Mizzy for any desk-bashing I've caused her. If Crywolf comes up scum, I'm wary of Mykonian's behavior toward her, and her last-minute thing about thinking he was about to turn on her, which is kind of annoying because I still find it difficult to see his miller claim coming from scum. q21scum is also a good bet, and I guess q21/Mykonian is the simplest pair under Cryscum...I guess q21's Mykvote was still bad because it avoided the actual controversy. Eh.

[Ether]

Frustrating, but fun.

I think the game was balanced, though with any other title it would run the risk of the cops counterclaiming each other and getting lynched in succession. (Had fun WIFOMing that one. "Cops and Robbers" would be a great name for a 10:2 vanilla setup, but of course I couldn't say that out loud without admitting my own role.) I do think the flavor (and role reveals, specifically "Robber") clash with the definition of mini normal, though.

I like how I read Crywolf correctly and got 2/3rds of the scumgroup right, all based on assuming Mizzyscum. After Crywolf was lynched as town, I was planning to vote Empking the next day and demand that the town choose between him and me in LyLo. I figured Mizzy and q21 could get themselves lynched without my help. ¬_¬

Apparently I give off cop vibes without realizing it--this is the second time I've been nightkilled because scum thought I was dropping unsubtle breadcrumbs. Awesome.

After dying, I learned the scumgroup from Charter and immediately went out on my own to secure the QuickTopic. I was impatient about that; when Mykonian hadn't responded the next day, I assumed that he hadn't picked up my PM at all and went to q21 instead, since he was online. Mykonian, why didn't you answer?

It bugs me in retrospect how obvious Mykonian was, aside from that damn claim...how if I'd been more active in the first month of that day, I might have run him to a less graceful claim...

how I'm not actually

supposed

to think like that 'cause forcing vanilla claims is suboptimal play.

I was on the edge of my seat when he placed that Mizvote; from where I was sitting, it was an obvspeedlynch. I like to think it would have given me some pause in Bionic's shoes. I'm almost certain that I'd have switched to Empking at that point, but I'm not sure what I'd have done the next day.

And yeah. Fuzzyman, what the hell don't do that again.

[Ether]

Fair enough.

You replaced Tisp, who I also found extremely scummy, but I guess that doesn't help you. Like I said at the time, I felt like your case on Fuzzyman was trying to frame something that wasn't actually there, and if you hadn't hesitated in 826 I'd probably have attacked you for concluding so quickly that Fuzzman must have been an insane cop after all. Your defense of Crywolf was

really really weird

--Mizzy was right about your double standard. (In retrospect, the same applied to the way you kept pushing me, but of course at the time I just concluded that you were an idiot and went on spamming/waiting on Crywolf. Hopefully if you believed a word of what you were saying, I've since shown you the light. :P) You just felt a lot shiftier now that I know your alignment.

I figured you were clear because 2-3 rounds was enough for the scum to win; the town would probably have lynched Corporate, putting the town at LyLo, and then you might have been able to push a Fuzzlynch through. This sort of overthinking seems to burn me a lot.

You, Empking and Bionic are all visible on the online list; in your shoes, I'd probably have waited until Empking was on and Bionic preferably wasn't. Some scum arrange speedlynches by predetermining a specific time to both be online, too. (Though if Fuzzyman had investigated anyone but the obvcop, then a speedlynch would never have been on the menu today in the first place.)

I continue to deny having engaged in suboptimal cop investigating during this game.

That's unfortunate. You'll never improve that way.

[Ether]

Empking's behavior boiled down to active lurking. (shrug) He wasn't accomplishing anything with the fights he picked--less than what towngoers are typically expected to accomplish. His wagon

did

suck, though--both scum were on it, and on Day 2 I could understand Crywolf's vote also setting off alarms. (I hated his later Cryvote, though by then I might have been biased. I would like to read his comments.)

Before q21 hammered, I was starting to fall away from this notion and was going to try to refocus a lynch on q21 because - as Ether pointed out - he was the common scum denominator in all of the scum lists.

It was those goddamned vanilla claims. The town metagame would be stronger if we encouraged people to claim when and only when they had power roles that raised the stakes of their lynches.

I really want to nominate Fuzzyman for a title referencing his sanity, but I get the feeling from his last post here that he wouldn't actually accept it. Discuss.

[Ether]

The annoying thing is that I can't think of anything wittier than "Insane Cop." ¬_¬

Shit, and I almost forgot:

*digs up Canary's corpse*

*beats Empking over the head with it*