Mini Normal 2269 - Flavors of Elmer's Glue [Game Over]

[Val89]

Enchant seems town to me.

VOTE: Enchant

[Val89]

VOTE: kcdaspot

Expect a case once I'm back at my pc.

[Val89]

Why would ANY TOWN go so far to CONVINCE people that they are town?

you just spent a series 6 POSTS trying to do just that.

Good point. Someone going out of their way to

appear

town is something that ought to raise suspicions. That isn't what I see Andante doing, though. If Kcdaspot had taken issue with Andante being overly defensive then there might have been something in that, but they say something different about Andantes intent - that she spent a series of 5 or 6 posts trying to convince people she is town – that she obviously isn't from even a quick surface reading – she is defensive, yes, and points the finger elsewhere, but I see nothing in any of those posts that could reasonably construed as trying to convince anyone she is town.

Why do I take such issue with this description? I think it's projection, because it looks to me like kcdaspot IS attempting just that. I give 35 a pass as an early-stage joke, but:

Spoiler: Look at what a helpful town I am, town! I must also be very town, fellow townies!

You could just react to other things in thread the back and forth with me and NM, even if it was banter it would still be early enough to be townie.

That reads to me like 'I am additionally scumreading Andante because they could have TR'd me for this and didn't'. I don't know how to take this other than straight-up naked LAMIST. I'll come back to this in my next point.

it's a normal, what do y'all think? 2 or 3 scum?

Look at how helpful I am being, asking the real questions, and look! please notice how I

definitely

do not how many scum are in this game, because I'm not scum! Promise!

MOD: are you able to do a vote history?

vote analysis is always a nice tool and the mod doing that makes it batter... if not the the vote with the post the vote came from is nice as well.

Here we go again: Look at me, I'm so helpful! Of course, Prism already was including the post the vote came from before this was even asked, so it's a

pointless

attempt at looking helpful - and that's all it appears to be, as admitted when asked about it.

anything useful is useful. thats it. you do have a point about it being a 9p, but if it helps find scums then why the hell not?

In fact, the whole of the rest of post 87 reads as "let me explain (in advance of anyone asking) how each of their previous few posts should be read as coming from a town mindset". I have to ask, why would ANY TOWN go so far to CONVINCE people that they are town?

I also read 83 and 84 in much the same vein - posts that try to look helpful but actually do nothing. Anyone feel like there was any legitimate risk of this day ending at that point?

Spoiler: You could just react to other things in thread the back and forth with me and NM, even if it was banter

From post 80. What back and forth banter would that be and Andante (or anyone else) was supposed to have reacted to, then? I can only assume it is this, since the request not to lolhammer(?) came after 80.

There might be 3 scum, my role is pretty OP

of course someone like you would get the unlimited JOAT with dayvig.

Really? Someone is supposed to read THAT as townie, at any stage of the game? I must be missing something huge, because I fail to see how that can be described as either a back-and-forth, or as banter, let alone something that could possibly be AI. And even if I divorce the issue of it being described as a back-and-forth when clearly it isn't, the fact that person making such a 'joke', if that's what it is, then stating it is supposed to be read as townie sets alarm bells ringing in my head.

Spoiler: Getting ahead of the scumread

5 posts technically. but DAMN

This stood out to me as a strange correction. Like the others, it smells as if there was a slight panic at having made a mistake, one that would have otherwise flew over my head, an over-sensitiveness to anything that anyone could point to as being scummy. I wouldn't have considered that mistake to have been scummy even had it been spotted, but it reads as if kcda was concerned someone might go "ah ha! kcda has exaggerated the number of andante posts by one! perhaps they are scum!", as if they are re-reading their posts with an eye of picking out anything that anyone might find off because of a preoccupation with how their slot might be perceived. It's the same attitude I see from other pre-emptive statements:

I admit i'm posting a lot but these are all legitimate thoughts i had.

"legitimate thoughts"? That's a mighty strange choice of phraseology there, as is the choice to try and get ahead of any question on why they are posting as much as they are.

Overall, the whole ISO just

stinks

of someone concerned about how they appear to others and trying to pre-emptively come across as town and get ahead of a scumread when that is called for, while simultaneously trying to make a scumcase on another player for doing that when they aren't.

[Val89]

thats what i precieve it as. it IS a overly defensive posture

You didn't accuse her of being defensive though, you accused her of trying to CONVINCE us she was town in every post, and that attitude is one that comes from scum.

She complains about the votes, and asks why she is being singled out for a lack of activity (although that doesn't actually appear to be the reason Meg gave for voting her anyway), but I don't see anywhere where she is trying to convince us of her towniness in the way you accuse her of, and do yourself.

I agree that caring about how your own slot is perceived above other considerations is scummy, but that description applies more to your own posting than Andantes, and I suggest the incorrect accusation is due to projection.

went back, looked counted actually saw it was 5, so i corrected. if imma catch scums imma do it right and leave little to no room for doubt.

Perfect example. Why go back? Why look and recount, unless you are casting a critical eye over your own posting looking for reasons your scum motivation might bleed through?

I say, again, that this is demonstrative of a concern for picking up an early townread and attempting to head off any reason for criticism (that attitude also coming through in the same way in asides such as "before you say X"), in a way that isn't natural.

[Val89]

While we are at it, would you also mind putting on the record what you didn't like about Mala, as per post 67, Kcdaspot?

[Val89]

No Humor Allowed.

What does this mean?

[Val89]

If you want someone to play, best pet is asking questions directly. Less likely to be ignored, fairly.

Less likely, but not guarenteed, right?

Let me try again.

No Humor Allowed.

What does this mean?

[Val89]

NM voted me right after I was like "NM prob not town" that implies he's following along..

The NM vote for you also came directly after you said:

And I always do bad with pressure.. it doesn't take many votes to lim here, we have NM who'll hammer like anything at e-1, so the 2 votes on me was technically 3...

Perhaps I'm giving the cow too much credit, but I'm not seeing that as an OMGUS vote.

[Val89]

Did someone ask me something? I think i heard something.

Yes. Me.

I asked you to explain post 116.

[Val89]

I mean, I called him maf in the post before he voted me too... yet I'm the one OMGUSing here....

You did, correct. I took your observation in 133 that NM voted you right after you accused him of probably not being town as an accusation of NMs vote on you being OMGUS, something I sense again in this post, and my point is that I don't think that is the case.

Unless I've miscounted, you now sit at 3 votes with 5 to lim, and NM can not drop the hammer.

gut is going to tell me we have 2 maf in frogster/NM/Enchant

So, to be clear, you think scum is in that three because of a lack of activity, but that me and kcda are town because we are active? That's a extraordinarly simplistic view of the game. I grant that I don't see a world you and kcdaspot are scum together, and since I hold a decently strong SR on kcda that makes me want to townread you by default, but I'm struggling to make sense of your reads here.

[Val89]

What is the difference between scum!enchant and town!enchant, to you, Andante?

I think I'm going to need more than "NM is scum because they arent town" if you want me to take than one seriously, likewise with frogster - that's simplistic as hell and I don't see why Mala and JV get handwaved as being 'busy RL' when I see no evidence to support that in thread for those slots as opposed to other low content ones.

Also Andante is pretty clearly town imo.

I wouldn't go that far. I'm working on the assumption Andante is town on account of my kcda scumread, but unless they just aren't being explained properly, then cards on the table, her reads seem pretty darn shit at present.

[Val89]

and Enchant is.. being scum!enchant?? like there's no way this can be town!enchant trying to actually win here

Andante, you obviously consider that there is enough content in this game to make this particular determination.

What is the difference between scum!enchant and town!enchant, to you, Andante?

I've not played with either scum!enchant nor town!enchant, so you are going to have to spell it out to me. What did you mean by the above?

[Val89]

I guess I could be wrong, then.

I understand frustration at being scumread, particulary when there are low content slots crusing by. I don't understand why town would ever essentially invent reads.

I'm almost certain that Andante and kcda are unpartnered, still, so if Andante was to flip red, that would clear kcda for me.

[Val89]

Val, I TR 100% like, I feel like Val is trying

I'm honestly not convinced Val is town

i guess this is a slip like??? idk i guess andante just forgot her read and must be the maf

[Val89]

In all seriousness, this isn't Andantes first game of mafia, and I don't think is incapable of understanding why I considered her and kcda to be unpartnered, and why my scumread on kcda meant I initially thought that made her town, but that has changed with her having basically invented reads.

I'll go on record now and say I won't stand in the way of this lim. This flip would give info on kcda slot one way or the other.

[Val89]

Hey Val, I'm e-1... wanna hammer this? I'm a pr....

You would make a terrible poker player, Andante.

Ill take your word for the fact you are at e-1.

INTENT TO HAMMER

[Val89]

Just to be 110 percent clear, given the unvote and revote.

INTENT TO HAMMER

The very next post ought to be your full and final claim, because it's likely the very last one you get.

I don't buy town!Andante, correctly deducing I am serious about hammering you, keeps playing fast and loose with this PR bullshit.

You want not be dead, full claim now, and if it makes sense, I might consider not dropping the hammer just yet. Anything else just convinces me you are flipping red and I might as well make NM pround and end the day right now.

[Val89]

That's your last freebie. I mean it. Modifers?

[Val89]

no one but me controls my shot

Didn't I call it, JV? I did, didn't I, that she wouldn't go for it because she is partnered with Mala.

She gets one more chance to agree before I lay out everything and hammer.

[Val89]

OK.

I fullclaim

Town Neighbour

. I am in a hood with JV and Malakittens. My role PM explicitly refers to the fact that, paraphrasing, my neighbours are potential scum.

I doubt very much that this is a mini-normal in which I am in a hood with 2 scum, thus, I strongly suspect that I am basically informed that one of JV or Mala is scum. There remains the chance that the line in my role PM is a red herring; but I am also very confident that there is one scum between Andante/KCDA, and Andantes behaviour here while Mala is absent from both threads now has me leaning towards Andante and Mala, and by a large margin. If Andante is a legit vig, I still lean towards Mala being scum of the two.

I have discussed full claiming with JV. Andante shooting Mala would go some way to confirming Andante, and either flip Mala as scum, or basically reduce the red partner pool, baring said red herring, to me and JV. To my mind, that leaves a nice tight PoE I am happy with, particualry as I've already stated, I was expecting to draw the NK tonight anyway otherwise. Getting this claim out now has other advantages to my mind, and I'm ready for the day to end with this information public. I expect everything that has been said in our hood has made it's way back to the scum PT anyway, via one of Mala or JV, and it is better to my mind that the rest of town also have this information early.

I will now hammer Andante, unless the very next post, no-takebacks, is a public commitment from her to shoot Malakittens tonight.

[Val89]

VOTE: Andante

[Val89]

I obviously disagree that it was 'stupid' and 'absolutely terrible', else I wouldn't have done it, but OK, let's assume you aren't victims of hindsight, and that we were both wrong and it objectively was.

Why does that lead to you voting me today?

[Val89]

Explain the vote.

[Val89]

Because of the hammer?

[Val89]

OK.

I fullclaim

Town Neighbour

. I am in a hood with JV and Malakittens. My role PM explicitly refers to the fact that, paraphrasing, my neighbours are potential scum.

I doubt very much that this is a mini-normal in which I am in a hood with 2 scum, thus, I strongly suspect that I am basically informed that one of JV or Mala is scum. There remains the chance that the line in my role PM is a red herring; but I am also very confident that there is one scum between Andante/KCDA, and Andantes behaviour here while Mala is absent from both threads now has me leaning towards Andante and Mala, and by a large margin. If Andante is a legit vig, I still lean towards Mala being scum of the two.

I have discussed full claiming with JV. Andante shooting Mala would go some way to confirming Andante, and either flip Mala as scum, or basically reduce the red partner pool, baring said red herring, to me and JV. To my mind, that leaves a nice tight PoE I am happy with, particualry as I've already stated, I was expecting to draw the NK tonight anyway otherwise. Getting this claim out now has other advantages to my mind, and I'm ready for the day to end with this information public. I expect everything that has been said in our hood has made it's way back to the scum PT anyway, via one of Mala or JV, and it is better to my mind that the rest of town also have this information early.

I will now hammer Andante, unless the very next post, no-takebacks, is a public commitment from her to shoot Malakittens tonight.

You are pretending I didn't explain already?

[Val89]

I did not believe the vig claim.

I must say, I am struggling very hard to understand how, even if I assume me and JV both missed something that made this an objectively bad plan, how "bad hammer = mafia" when you've just seen JV flip town.

Perhaps you can help me out?

[Val89]

If you believed one of hood is scum, why you tried to force some LEFT person (kdc), instead of Malakittens?

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Would you please rephrase the question?

[Val89]

Because Andante was at E-2 when the plan was discussed, not Mala?

I think I still must be misunderstadning, because the answer to that question is obvious to anyone reading this game. What does LEFT person (kdc), whatever that means, have to do with it?

[Val89]

I see. Your question is "why did JV vote kcda instead of Mala at 285"?

You should know I can't speak for JV.

What happened in the hood is that he asked me who, out of the neighbourhood I would chose Andante to shoot if she did turn out to be a legit vig, but didn't wait for my answer, he just told me to hammer Andante (whilst the idea of full claiming was still under discussion).

I had no intention of hammering before I had full claimed our hood, and was intending to just hammer her as I claimed, but I asked what JV what he was thinking with that question, particularly if Mala was scum and everything we said was going to go back to scum anyway.

JV told me that he thought of one Mala and Andante was scum and that Andante shooting Mala would resolve that for him. He then changed his mind on his instruction for me to just hammer and asked me if he could propose Andante shot Mala in the mainthread rather me hammering, but again, he didn't wait for my response, saying he was going to go with his gut and do it. That's what was happening in the hood at the time he made that post.

I can't speak for the dead, and he did not explain why specifically kcda, but I make the assumption that moving the vote was to give Andante a chance to respond to that ultimatum.

The idea to offer Andante a chance to shoot Mala was JVs, and I had a strong enough townread on that slot that I thought there was no harm in offering it, because I thought Andante was just straight up fake claiming, and thus would never go for it, and I would just be forced to hammer anyway. If she did surprise me and agree, then my intent was to hold off the hammer and have further discussions in mainthread about what that meant.

JVs concern was, after I full claimed the hood, if Andante was legit she might offer to shoot me, because she was scumreading me and JV had a strong enough TR on me that he didn't want that. I believe that was the intent of his comment to Andante that he didn't want to full claim because she was "biased against Val", and he also told Mala overnight post-hammer that he wouldn't vote me if she flipped town. My compromise was to agree to make the threat of hammer conditional on her agreeing to shooting Mala like JV wanted, instead of just hammering her as I made the fullclaim, but I would hammer her if she didn't agree, as I fully expected to happen because I thought she was fake claiming scum.

As for why I hammered her rather than claiming and then voting Mala, I refer to the above. Andante was at E-1, I thought she was fake claiming scum, so I hammered.

[Val89]

I fullclaimed my role yesterday. I am explicitly

not

an

informed

Neighbour.

I fullclaim Town Neighbour. I am in a hood with JV and Malakittens. My role PM explicitly refers to the fact that, paraphrasing, my neighbours are potential scum.

There are a number of explict reminders that quoting from private communications is against the rules, so the paraphrase is all I can give.

I will say that I am confident that JV received a identical PM to myself, and in the last discussion they had with mala on the topic through the night phase, they used a synomyn for 'very probable' when discussing the likleyhood or otherwise of scum exisiting in the hood, and said the circumstances in which they would be confident the hood was all town was if Mala flipped town. JV then refered her back to that answer, in a somewhat direct and forcefull manner (they suggested Mala was potentially illiterate, to give you clue), when she later explictly asked if JV had any plans to vote for me.

[Val89]

RIA?

[Val89]

As much as it's gonna be seen as OMGUS Meg is scum protecting a vital scum PR. Val is never lim town. and i fully believe one of frog or jackson rounds out the scum team. hard leaning frog for voting the other first and being a general cartwheel.

@KCDA

: Just to clarify, was Adante the "vital scum PR" you were proposing MegA was protecting in this post?

lead a ambitious townie to your partner wait for the clapback and then deflect.

it's in political playbooks. 100% you lim aden and you town is in a dominant position if not out right winning. 200% it's Aden and meg.

Who was the 'ambitious townie' here? We breifly discussed this in the hood and I outlined why I beleived you were refering to yourself, but if I am wrong, a correction would be appreciated.

as we stand rn theres one scum in val/mala and possibly one scum between NM enchant and Meg

How did you arrive at that second group (NM, enchant, Meg)?

[Val89]

1.yes. I believed that 100% then

Can you explain two parts of your progression since then, please?

You 100% believed Andante was a vital scum PR with MegA and I was never lim town. Today, you WANT to vote MegA but I am your 'top spot'.

What was it that that happened between the two to change your read on me?
Why hasn't your read on MegA changed with the Andante flip?

[Val89]

Well yes, and was hammered for refusing to shot Malakittens and still planning to shot Val.

That's a complete misrep.

I kid yall not when I say, high chance I just don't even shoot tonight, cause I'm feeling maf can redirect

Those were the last words Andante said before the hammer.

Want to try again?

[Val89]

Yeah but it's always what scum does in that situation. They take a mislim and die rather than not get one and die.

This is two slots now pushing a narrative I don't understand. Both MegA and Enchant have now both suggested that I would have been the lim had Andante not gone down, so I took my last chance to mislim.

Are you mixing this game up with some other you are active in? That situation is not my recollection at all.

Vote Count 1.5

Player	Votes
Andante (5)	Kcdaspot (66), Not_Mafia (119), Enchant (120), JacksonVirgo (292), Val89 (329)
Not_Mafia (1)	Malakittens (9)
Kcdaspot (1)	MegAzumarill (115)
JacksonVirgo (1)	Frogsterking (149)
Val89 (1)	Andante (164)
Not Voting (0)

That singular vote was clearly, unambigiously an OMGUS vote, same way her vote on NM was, same way her vote on Enchant was (ironically, the fact she tried to dress that read up as some sort of actual meta read when it wasn't was the first thing to ping me seriously about her).

I'm about to go through the entire of D1 and extract every mention of my slot, let's see if my recollection was correct, because I think I was the ONLY slot that a non-trivial amount of decent townreads and not really much push back at all.

You are trying to tell me that what I did in that circumstance would have been optimal play for scum me, and have the cheek to suggest

I

am the idiot?

[Val89]

and call it a day?

Yeah, lets.

VOTE: Val

E-1.

NM, you are up. Do what you do best. Just remember you absolutely want to be limming Mala when you see my role card, and you can sort out the partner out (my money is on kcda) amongst yourselves. This isn't a town I can work with.

[Val89]

I am aware. Neither will MegA, given 386.

Absolutely not my intent. This is the best play for town. I think I'm arguing with two fucking townies, as much as it hurts me to say, and no hunting is going to get done while I remain unresolved.

Let's end this now while how the rest of the player list is reading the other slots ambigious and give scum some difficulties in choosing a night kill. It's at least a one-for-one trade.

[Val89]

Why not just hammer me and find out.

If you are town, do you honestly,

really

think we are getting any work done here today?

Mala is essentially confirmed scum by my flip. When we were discussing the claim in the hood, open claiming D1 was suggested as a good idea because even if scum shot inside our hood, that would end up good for town. You have to admire the nerve to be a party to that discussion and shoot JV anyway after they said they wouldn't push me, but now you get to reduce that pool down to one and demostrate why that was a bad move.

[Val89]

A chance at what, exactly?

[Val89]

I have thought of something else, actually.

Before you lim her, ask Mala tomorrow to relay the other points I had pointing to kcda!scum from the hood last night. I've given enough already, but there is still something I saw as a potential perspective slip on D1 that I haven't brought up yet, and a possible example of TMI. Ask Mala to explain. She was evasive about her read on kcda (although she was with respect to her reads in general, just saying everyone alive was null or leanscum to her) and perhaps you will glean something from her reluctance or otherwise to do so. That is my legacy solve - Mala and KCDA.

[Val89]

Well, my initially impression is THAT is scummy AF.

[Val89]

I gotta agree with this. It feels like val was trying to save herself because if andante didnt follow the plan; she could have killed val rather than me and val was protecting herself.

And just like that, any small residual doubt I had I wasn't supposed to take line in my PM wasn't supposed to be taken as "you are informed there is at least one mafia neighbour in your hood" has evaporated. This is a scumclaim. I know it's going to take my flip for you to see it, so get on with it.

VOTE: Val
VOTE: Val
VOTE: Val

I see quickhammer as fast resort to dispose vig, before someone from wagon arrive and unvote.

Because if this happens, Val like 99% will be used by vig for target practice, or elimmed instantly.

It's Terrible play as town, and Decent for scum.
Val was gonna die anyway. So he had nothing to lose by hammer. Now he wants to pass as idiot.

No. Don't.

Andante could basically be treated as IC after a night, there's no good excuse

This is absolute bullshit. I hammered Andante because I thought she was fakeclaiming, but fuck it, regardless, I can give you the largest leeway on the doubt I can, and assume Prism confirmed in thread that yes, despite all the waffle and everything else, Andante was a mod-confirmed IC Macho Vig, and that my intent was solely to save myself, and it STILL would have been the play to hammer her. Why the fuck does MegA thing a dead macho vig, who used the only night action they would have gotten to shoot a town neighbour, would have been in anyway good for town?

Still, there is a possiblity that MegA, and to a lesser degree Enchant are just town idiots who see a dead town PR and think "well, fuck, the hammerer must be scum".

But that can't be said for Mala, suggesting I was protecting myself. She was there in the hood when the discussions went down. She knows full well the concern, if Andante turned out to a legit vig, she might chose to shoot me came from JV, not me, and I was talked into endorsing the ultimatum and yet - there you go - there is smoking gun that proves Mala is trying to mislead you about what happened in the hood. You won't believe it until you see a green flip, fair enough, but I don't want to see a single suggestion post-flip that Mala isn't scum.

UNVOTE:

"VaL Is ScUM bEcAuSE hE haMMEreD AnDAnTe tO SaVE hIS SoRRy aSS!"

And yet, when I put my sorry ass on the line, that's your reaction.

It's almost as if Enchant is talking out of their arse.

[Val89]

Where do you get that idea from?

It would take two votes to hammer me now, what with Enchant playing silly buggers, and you have a guarenteed scum between me and mala, just as you said yourself, no?

[Val89]

Well, I don't think the scum team is exactly Mala + Enchant + MegA, so that description fairly applies to at least one of the last two.

In fairness, I don't think this 1D mafia is because you are literally stupid people, I just think you are overgamed as hell and not giving this one the attention it deserves. Yeah, I see you.

[Val89]

I'm serious if you town unvote yourself because one more Mis lim could lose us the game right here

Let's say you believe that. It's almost as if you know I'm town and this would be a mislim.

A post or two ago, I was your top choice of lim. What is it about this particular game state now that has prompted this 180?

[Val89]

Val can you post a simple slot by slot reads list with like a few lines each for each player? I think NM and I should post one too to get like more reads out.

Let's end this now while how the rest of the player list is reading the other slots ambigious and give scum some difficulties in choosing a night kill. It's at least a one-for-one trade.

[Val89]

Both Enchant and frogster seem to have been online together with Mala already, and would have quickhammered, so they aren't paired.

Unless the fatc that didnt happen was the source of Prisms hairpulling, alongside whatever town!NM is pulling with the fake guilty, in that scenario

Reaction in the dead thread now understandable.

Thanks again for modding. That flavour was on point, and as it happens, thematic.

[Val89]

Any news on the Mafia PT?