667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[eldarad]

Not impressed with KR's early postings. Some comments made me shake my head sadly.
Moo's claim or die post in #61 is surprising. I wonder whether he plays mafia elsewhere?
afatchic's posts 25 and 41 do appear to just be generic comments on game theory with nothing that is specific to this *actual* game.
Post 66 is also a general commentary on game theory.

I explained that I was ready to unvote if a bandwagon should form, indicating that I was pressure voting, not lynch voting.

It is not apparent to me how a vote is effective pressure if you state upfront that the vote is not intended to lynch.
I anticipated post 70 coming, like, a page ago.
Ooh. Post 71 is interesting too.

im still unsure about him but in the opposite way, his remarks just sound like an agrevated newb scum to me.

charter i agree, i don't like it when people use the excuse that im new and im just now learning. while it may be true, its a terrible excuse because it can't be proven or countered. my suspicion is def. on moospiker, and if his play doesn't start acting more like a townie to me then i may very well put him at L-1.

afatchic, how do you reconcile these two statements?

the difference is that i was at a newbie game, where i should be if i am going to play the newb card, you are at a mini game and being a "mafia scum" i have a hard time believing the newbie card.

So, you're saying that the newbie card is a valid defence in newbie games? I bet if we asked every IC on this site, 100% would disagree with you.

Post 114 is another generic commentary on game theory by afatchic

Vi replaces KrisReizer

Oh, that's really annoying...

Moo claims cop.
MM replaces in.
charter, if you don't buy the cop claim, why unvote?

Erm... is this me, or does afatchic say the same thing, just in different wording.

But he tries to make it sound as if it's not an agreement

, as if he's trying to come across townish by adding fake stuff to the discussion.

I thought exactly the same thing. His words very closely echoed JD's which I found odd.

i was answering a question, while giving my own opinions. if everyone seems to think this, maybe its the truth. have you ever thought about that?

You were answering a question, using someone else's words as your own.
Given that you have given very few opinions on *this actual game* - the fact that you have used someone elses opinion to validate your own ("I think you're scum. Look, JD thinks so too!") does not impress me.

I also figured out a pretty damn good reason to not believe Moo's claim, Anyone think it's odd that he asks for a claim when he himself claims to be a powerrole? What was he hoping to hear? Oh, I'm the doc? Not protown in the least to out the doc. Possible there's a slim chance it's a second cop, but like I said, very slim.

My gut reaction was that Moo plays mafia elsewhere and he was following whatever the meta there is. A second plausible reason would be that he wanted to catch the scum out in a fake-claim.
I would like Moo to comment further on this.

On the other hand, my top suspicion is still Avinyl. Mod: is Avinyl getting replaced?

Yes, Avinyl has been replaced. Are you still suspicious? How is Avinyl's absence a scumtell now that I have replaced him?

Waiting for avinyl to get lynched.

I hope you have a good explanation for this.

[eldarad]

Also, hi everyone. I'm replacing Avinyl.

Kinda forgot that bit...

[eldarad]

So you've never played mafia elsewhere?

[eldarad]

Elerad can you please tell me your thoughts to the answer to that question, cuz i really don't see another answer legit answer to that question.

I certainly will, although that will involve another discussion on game theory. Perhaps you would like to address the points I made relating to this specific game?

In a newbie game, everyone is new so the newbie card is useless - it's already a given. That's why you're in a newbie game...
Whereas there are no requirements to join a mini normal so people with absolutely no mafia experience can and do play. Even someone who has played a newbie game will notice a big difference in the level of play. I have more sympathy for someone playing the newbie card in one of the first minis than in a newbie game...although I still don't rate it as a defence.

I really, really don't like this. M-M never said that Avinyl's absence was a scumtell.
Meanwhile, why not turn the general question around - What is your opinion on me, since I replaced KrisReizer?

I would like MM to answer please. I note your desire to answer on his behalf.
It's not a general question though (

"what do you think about replacements in general?"

) - it's specific (

"what makes Avinyl scummy, given that his absence is caused by flaking rather than lurking?"

)

[eldarad]

I note your desire to misrepresent people's positions and ignore my question

How did I misrepresent you? I asked MM a question and you answered it for him. Or do you deny this? And, in addition, you attempted to immediately change the subject before the original question had even been answered by MM.
Can you explain why you did that?

I've illustrated my reasons for suspicions of avinyl in my first post after replacing, which have been reiterated by others as well. I never considered the absense a scumtell, but rather something that is not helping him bring down my level of suspicion of him. That was why I reiterated that Avinyl was my top suspect.

My understanding - and it isn't just MM who articulated this - is that Avinyl's failure to respond to questions (although I don't actually see many questions unanswered - at least partly because he hasn't been posting recently so there is nothing for people to ask about) is making him look scummy.
Perhaps charter or Vi would like to comment more on that point.

im still unsure about him but in the opposite way, his remarks just sound like an agrevated newb scum to me.

charter i agree, i don't like it when people use the excuse that im new and im just now learning. while it may be true, its a terrible excuse because it can't be proven or countered. my suspicion is def. on moospiker, and if his play doesn't start acting more like a townie to me then i may very well put him at L-1.

afatchic, how do you reconcile these two statements?

afatchic, I would like an answer please.

~~~
KR didn't really strike me as scummy, but as a newbie with a lot of preconceived ideas. Like, logic is the only way to find scum, and an argument that lynches a townie must be flawed in some way.
I have sympathy with JDodge during the KR-JD exchange.

Vi:
I'm surprised you had a positive read on afatchic initially. What made you mildly positive about him?
Your response to Moo's claim is a bit odd.

Thus, I don't know what to do with Avinyl - he could show up and explain himself, and that would take care of a lot of the suspicion in my eyes.

Does this still hold true for you now?

I agree with your comments about afatchic. I'm not entirely convinced that there is as strong a afatchic-charter link as you suggest, but it is interesting that charter has tried pretty hard to lynch Avynil and has done very little in the way of scrutinising afatchic.

[eldarad]

You think scum would counterclaim someone they know isn't scum and is claiming cop?

Given that Moo hadn't claimed cop at that point, scum wouldn't be counterclaiming anyone - they'd just be claiming. Given your stated position that you don't want to lynch a claimed cop even though you don't buy his claim, it would be a pretty good claim for a scum to make, wouldn't it?

Your opening post didn't help your case either.

How so?

I did not answer the question. You asked how Avinyl's absence was a scumtell. I noted that M-M never said that in the first place; and if I have to explain technically where the logical flaw is, that means you strawmanned M-M quite blatantly. Way to go!

MM answered the question for himself perfectly well, and along the lines that I expected, as it happens. You're entitled to comment on anything in-thread, but I still find it odd the manner in which you intervened on MM's behalf.

I also don't understand how you dismissed my rather innocuous question - "what do you think of me, since I replaced the person you hated in your read" - as trying to "change the subject" as if it was impossible for M-M to respond to the question you posed to him.

You mean the question I answered at the first opportunity, once MM had answered my original question?
Also note that I didn't say I hated KR - and as I explained in #207 it didn't strike me as scummy but more as a newbie with preconceived ideas.

Still waiting to hear afatchic's answer to the question I asked in #207 and #217.

[eldarad]

That you answered the question has nothing to do with it. You said that I was trying to change the subject by asking you a question that was somewhat in the same vein as the one you were asking M-M. CrapLogic.

You changed a specific question into a more general one. And I wanted to keep the question specific. I also didn't want to go off on a tangent until I'd got an answer. You'll notice that Moo hasn't said a lot for a while, and afatchic is keeping a low profile too.
You also responded to my question before MM had a chance to - that gave me another reason to insist on waiting for an answer from MM before I moved on.

The accusation against you, brought on by the player known in this game as Vi: You misrepresented M-M's position by asking him how he thought Avinyl's action of not answering the accusations against him (due to Avinyl's flaking) was scummy, when M-M never indicated that this was so. Do you believe you are guilty of this misrepresentation, commonly referred to as "strawmanning"? If so, why? If not, why not?

At least part of MM's reasons for rating Avinyl as suspicious was that he hadn't turned up to respond to questions. Now, as it turns out, Avinyl's absence isn't a scumtell per se (and I never expected anyone to say it was) but that "his absence does not reduce the suspicion" which is a reasonable distinction for MM to make. But one that I wanted to hear MM say.
So in a word, no, I wasn't strawmanning MM.

~~~
OMG, you changed your avatar whilst I was writing that post. That freaked me out...

[eldarad]

I am a vanilla townie.

vote afatchic

[eldarad]

True, but if two people claimed cop in day one, I'd be all for lynching one. The two cop scenerio is too unlikely in my opinion. If Moo is cop and someone else claimed before him, I can't imagine not seeing a counterclaim.
Also, I only said I don't want to lynch him today. Tomorrow is a whole different story.

Right. I agree that a scum claiming cop would have been counterclaimed by Moocop. Which may go some way to explain why Moo was asking for a claim so early.

You gave virtually no original opinions. A lot of what you said was a rehash of what has been said or happened, or you talk about your 'gut' which is really an excuse to say whatever you want. All in all, it wasn't an impression opening post, and certainly didn't do anything to alleviate my concerns about your predessor.

I think my opening post gives my opinions pretty clearly, whilst - being a catchup post - it inevitably also includes the points that I thought were interesting as I read through.
Reading my opening post, can you determine my opinion on Moo? On afatchic? On the Avinyl wagon?

The fact that you criticise my for using my gut shows that you haven't actually read my post recently, if at all. That bothers me, given that you're trying to lynch me.

~~~
charter, you've given your opinion on Vi's idea of a afatchic-charter link.

As a whole, I don't think there's really an 'afatchic is following charter' case, I'd say it's more of an 'afatchic is following everyone' case. However, you did have good points, and while I'd prefer an avinyl lynch, I wouldn't be opposed to an afatchic one.

Do you think afatchic is scum then?

What do you think about my idea that afatchic hasn't expressed any opinions on this actual game, preferring instead to talk in abstract theory terms?
How does that impact on whether you think afatchic is scum?

Are you satisfied with the current situation, where afatchic is currently in a position where he could hammer me to end the Day? Why?

[eldarad]

You, you just make a few open ended statements on him. You don't give an opinion on him either way.

Really? So...you feel that I haven't made my position on Moo reasonably clear? That, for example, I believe his claim? That I think his demand for KR's claim so early was surprising but more related to playstyle than alignment? Does any of this sound familiar to you?

Yes, this is the only player you elaborated on. You set yourself up to vote him. I get the impression that you saw he's the easiest target besides yourself and are gunning for him for that reason.

Well, at least I know you haven't tried to meta me. He was certainly the scummiest person from my read.
And I am glad you have retracted your previous statement and accepted that I did give opinions in my opening post.

Barely, the obvious answer is you don't agree with it, no one agrees with their own wagon. I find this a pointless question to ask me.

OK, so I don't agree it. Do you think I have given any indication as to *why* I don't agree with it? Do you think that those constitute an opinion, over and above "a rehash of what has been said or happened"?

I've read your posts, I still think you're scum.

Then perhaps you could explain when I used "my gut as an excuse to say anything I liked." I referred to my gut reaction to the Moo claim, so perhaps you could share with us how that is bad and indicative that I am scum.
Or maybe you would like to retract that element of #235 too.

No, but what I mean when I say I'm not opposed to an afatchic lynch is that his lynch will give lots of information regardless of his alignment. It isn't an obvious mislynch.

What additional information would an afatchic lynch give us over and above knowledge of his alignment?
I don't understand how you can approve - or at least acquiesce to - the lynch of someone you think is a townie - and let's be absolutely clear, you have not said anything to suggest that you think he is scum - on the basis that it will give us "information". Can you explain?

I think it makes him slightly less useful, but I don't consider usefullness a scumtell.

Do you think that reluctance to name players as prob-town, or as definite-scum as scumtell?
Do you think that a reluctance to scumhunt, preferring instead to talk in abstract terms about game theory, is a scumtell?
Do you think afatchic has done either of those things?

Sure am. I think you're scum, doesn't much matter to me who hammers you.

I see your point, but you're not even trying to see mine. I don't see the need to question everyone I find even slightly suspicious. I've already said, I think AFC would be a fine lynch regardless of his alignment, but I think an eld lynch would net us scum.

So you must be

very

confident that afatchic is a townie then?

~~~
Following MM's post, I note the absence of JDodge, Moospiker and afatchic from this thread recently.

[eldarad]

Eld is just out trying to discredit everything I say. Looks like he's been caught.

When the thing you are saying is "eldarad is scum" - which is pretty much all you have said since I replaced in - it is reasonable for me to attempt to discredit that.

I'm fine with afatchic getting lynched, I don't think he's scum

Now, I would like you to talk a bit more about afatchic and explain to us all how you think afatchic is such a good townie. The specific questions that Vi quoted are a good start, but feel free to expand beyond those questions if you wish.
I am particuarly interested in how you reached the point that "afatchic is town, but it will be OK to lynch him Today."

[eldarad]

This is actually getting quite ridiculous. I'm not in this game to defend afatchic. I'm not in this game to defend why I think someone is town. I'm in this game to catch scum, not townies. I'm not going to say why I think afatchic isn't scum anymore, or why I don't care if he's lynched. This is the last time.

It's not even that you're defending afatchic. It's that you completely refuse to even discuss anything else.

Don't ask me again, I'll ignore everything you write from now on if you do. I'm tired of wasting time not lynching eld and talking about afatchic.

unvote
vote charter

Really? You catch all the scum day one without knowing anyone's role/alignment? I don't believe it. It gives us something concrete to work with in the coming days. This is a basic and fundamental principle in mafia. Let me ask you this, what is better for the town on day one, lynching a townie after 10 pages, or lynching scum in the first five posts?

All you have said here is that, all things being equal, lynching after 10 pages is better than after 5 posts. I agree with that.
But from what you have just said, *any* lynch will give us the same information as an afatchic lynch - does that mean that you're basically happy with any lynch because of the information (the victim's alignment) that it will give us?

[eldarad]

Vi is still under heavy fire, yet I am the only one voting for him.

What do you mean by that?

[eldarad]

I find the timing of elderad's votes on afatchic and charter to be troubling, more so for afatchic. In both cases it seemed like he tries to get his feet wet in expressing suspicions and then pounces with votes when the suspicion for both had increased to levels that make his votes look better.

Maybe this is a playstyle thing.
I never FoS, so if I don't vote, I express my suspicions in words. Also note, that in both of the cases you mention, I have actively contributed to the level of suspicion on the person concerned. It's not like I've just sidled onto a bandwagon - I've helped build it before adding my vote.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I now believe that afatchicscum and charterscum to be mutually exclusive. The amount of linkage that charter is creating with afatchic is so blatant as to be implausible for them both to be scum.

[eldarad]

Plus JDodge has now broken his promise of analysis on afatchic. I'm now equally willing to lynch JDodge as elderad.

If this is genuinely the only choice, then I would change my vote to JD before deadline. But I don't think JD is the best lynch Today. Moreover, I don't think we are at a point where it is such a simple either/or decision.

charter has now made a point of only antagonising one person (me) Today, despite being persistently aggressive. That would quite neatly set him up for Tomorrow in that he "put his money where his mouth was" even though he has successfully managed to avoid expressing an opinion on anyone except me.

MM, how would you characterise charter's play Today? Are you satisfied with charter's breadth and depth of scumhunting?

charter, do you think a JDodge lynch would provide as much information as an afatchic lynch? Or would it provide more, or less? Assuming that an eldarad lynch is not possible Today, who would your second-choice be?

[eldarad]

how does he completely refuse to drop it, yet you keep asking him questions about it? this doesn't add up to me.

By "anything else" I was referring to charter's "eldarad and Moo are scum, therefore no-one can possibly be scum and we shouldn't even be discussing it" line.

Do you think that my asking questions of charter is scummy? Or are the questions themselves scummy, rather than the asking of them?
What do you think about charter's refusal to engage in any further discussion?

[eldarad]

Eld, stop. I never said the second half of that sentence that you put in quotes. A blatent falsification.

It's a shame that you haven't been able to show

how

it is blatantly false. And if it were so blatant, it would be pretty easy to show how wrong I was, wouldn't it?
In what way is my summary of your position misrepresenting you? Provide quotes.

I was referring to charter's "eldarad and Moo are scum, therefore no-one can possibly be scum and we shouldn't even be discussing it" line.

Do you hold the opinion that afatchic isn't scum because the scumpair is eldarad and Moospiker?

I do not think afatchic is scum. I think Moo/eld are scum. I think afatchic's lynch will give us lots of information to go into day two with and will be a good lynch.

Don't ask me again, I'll ignore everything you write from now on if you do. I'm tired of wasting time not lynching eld and talking about afatchic. If that's who you guys want to lynch, you're going to do it without my vote, get used to the idea.

Do you believe that discussion about afatchic is a distraction from the eldwagon? Do you think this is a bad thing?
If so, how is my summary misrepresenting your position?
If not, what is the purpose of posts 278, 281, 283?

what I mean when I say I'm not opposed to an afatchic lynch is that his lynch will give lots of information regardless of his alignment. It isn't an obvious mislynch.

Do you believe that an afatchic lynch will give us more, less, or the same amount of information as, for example, a JDodge lynch?

[eldarad]

#1. Eldarad, you should probably stop being so self-preservative. I was doubting that you were scum, yet now it seems you're trying hard to get any lynch that isn't you.

Hmm. My favourites for lynching Today are either charter or afatchic, since they both look scummy and I believe the linkage is so blatant that the possibility of them both being scum is very slim. Hence lynching one would give me a good steer on the alignment of the other.

Given MM's stark choice of two potential lynches, where one of the potentials is me, I would pick *anyone who isn't me*, so yes, you're correct there.
I'm not trying to get you lynched though.

[eldarad]

Times like these make me wish I had unlimited daykill abilities.

Why? Because you are SCUM?!? (joke...)

Before I say something I may regret, eldarad. Could you elaborate on [

post 305

]

charter has gone out of his way to create 'scumbuddy' links with afatchic. Bear witness:
- the repeated failure to read afatchic and express an opinion on him. Compare and constrast charter's actions towards Avinyl/me.
- the repeated refusal to express an opinion on afatchic
- the fact that charter neither supports or opposes an afatchic lynch

Usually, you would expect a scum to avoid expressing an opinion on their scumbuddies, or have a neutral-ish read on them. The fact that charter has repeatedly portrayed these traits towards afatchic so often and so blatantly suggests to me that he is trying to deliberately manufacture a scumbuddy link with someone who isn't actually his scumbuddy.

Hence lynching charter will give us more information than a JD lynch, or an eldarad lynch, or a Vi lynch. (Or an afatchic lynch, actually.)
If charter flips scum - and I strongly believe that he will - then I would suggest that afatchic is largely cleared.
If charter flips town then my whole "charter is manufacturing a scumbddy link" theory is obviously a load of crap. I certainly wouldn't support lynching afatchic on the back of a charter mislynch.

[eldarad]

So you're interested in clearing afatchic from charter's flip, regardless of how charter flips...?

Given that I didn't say that I would clear afatchic if charter flipped town, I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

And what of a Moospiker lynch or an M-M lynch?

I don't propose lynching either of those player Today and I don't anticipate that becoming a contentious issue. I mentioned your name in that list because I was answering you specifically.

[eldarad]

IYO afatchic would look better no matter how charter flips. Which the way you put it just sounds like an excuse for a charter lynch.

Your reaction genuinely surprises me.

I did not even say that afatchic would look better if charter flips town. Rather, I am trying to make links between potential scumbuddies, and eliminate pairs that don't seem plausible.
Clearly, that exercise is much better informed when we have some dead bodies to analyse. So I'm prepared to scrap my current thinking Tomorrow if it proves to be incorrect (eg, because charter flips town and therefore couldn't have been manufacturing scumbuddy links with afatchic).
I did not exclude the possibility that afatchic could be scum independently of charter - I just said that I would have to go back to the drawing board as my thinking from Today would have been obviously and demonstrably wrong.

I've said I don't think afatchic is scum. Repeatedly. I haven't failed to do anything. I oppose the afatchic lynch (pretty sure I've said that) because it's not an eld lynch.

I'm pretty sure you specifically didn't oppose an afatchic lynch because it "wasn't an obvious mislynch" but you wouldn't support it either - because the scum are eld and Moo and therefore afatchic can't be scum.

[eldarad]

Obviously, the vote count is a test to check that we're paying attention...
I'm not voting for JDodge - my vote is currently on charter.

[eldarad]

Mod:

Charter seemed to have two votes in the most recent vote count.
Also can you get a prod on elderad?

I'm here, catching up now.

[eldarad]

@eldarad: Nice technicality. Then let me ask this, more for summary than anything--What do YOU think of afatchic without the charter link?

Labelling it a technicality doesn't diminish the fact that I've just proven you wrong. I said I was surprised at your reaction - I meant it.
In a vacuum, I would say that afatchic was fairly scummy, to the extent that I'd have been happy with an afatchic lynch. That has been somewhat overtaken by events though.
At this moment in time, I can't really give a standalone meaningful read on afatchic/kuribo because I just can't ignore the consequences of charter's manufactured linkage.

I see and acknowledge His Majesty kuribo's Vi-eldarad scum theory. Not buying it, sorry.

Page 10- Vi finds eld scummy and votes him. (Or bussing?)

Vi's voting pattern does look odd, but this isn't what you should be looking at. Vi's charter vote and then his unvote in 328 brought my assumptions about this game crashing to the ground. It just looks...wrong.

Having said that, my whole problem with Vi as viable scum candidate is that Kris didn't look scummy - he looked like a newbie with an odd but very complete set of preconceptions.

eld thinks charter and fatchic are linked.

More specifically, I think charter is creating artifical linkage with afatchic. That is, I don't think they are *actually* linked in a scumbuddy type way, rather that I think charter is trying to create what appears to be a scumbuddy link with a townie.

eld jokes that Vi is scum (You would know, wouldn't you?)

rawr.

1. The way he was blameshifting was really fucking awful

er, what? Shifting what blame? Shifting it to who?

I thought Kris was pretty town.

Okay then, pass that stuff you guys are smoking over here to me.

I thought Kris was fairly town too. He certainly wasn't scummy by any stretch of the imagination. Irritating? Yes.

So, here's where I am.
At deadline, I would prefer to see charter lynched. No-one else even comes close.
If kuribo/afatchic were lynched I wouldn't be distraught, but a charter lynch would be far better from a Day 2 standpoint.
A JD lynch I could live with and would be prepared to contribute to.

[eldarad]

No freaking crap. It's not like I'd expect you to say, "Oh my god, now that I think of it, kuribo's right! Vi IS my scum partner! I'll be damned."

Well I didn't say it to surprise you...

So the lynches you wouldn't be okay with are:
*Your own
*Mine (though you explained why)
*Machiavellian-Mafia.

Correct. And Moospiker.

Machiavellian-Mafia. And that's who I want you to give an opinion on.

Well, I have an opinion on MM, but given that he is

at least

4th on my list of scumminess I am not going to go any further down that road at the moment.

[eldarad]

Welcome Scheherazade.

As he's already claimed vanilla, he's either scum lying, town lying or a vanilla townie who just prioritised survival over protection of potentially concealed power-roles.

Which of those three do you think is the case?
More to the point, how many power roles do you think are vulnerable to being exposed?!
Given the choice between my lynch and the lynch of someone who may be scum, I'm going to prefer the potential-scum lynch. Do you think that is an unusual or anti-town position to take?

What do you not like about #276?

His methods and attitude are unhelpful.

Isn't this somewhat premature?

I'm not a fan of Machiavellian-Mafia's nominated lynchees, so reading more into him and hearing more from him, once I know what I'm looking for, will be nice.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean you aren't a fan of the lynchees that MM has "nominated", or that you aren't a fan of MM nominating lynchees?

[eldarad]

Only half a reply - more to follow when I have time.

@eldarad: I do think that it's most likely the case that you're lying as mafia both because you appear scummy to me and because your values seem skewed for a town player. However, the chances that you are a power-role, which I think exist because there's a >5/7 chance that we have two pro-town power roles, keep me from wanting to quicklynch you.

Though I'm uneasy about calling for a claim from somebody who might be a power-role, I think you're close enough to a lynch to warrant it.

Actually, I was referring to your accusation that, if I was a townie, I was running the risk of exposing power roles.

You've already called for my claim and I've already given it.

[eldarad]

You responded by saying that you helped to create the suspicion surrounding those two players, but I think you dodged the point. If you're trying to create suspicion, what prevents you from casting your vote with your initial line of attack?

I disagree with your premise that suspicion can only be generated by placing a vote, and that therefore if I am not voting for someone I am not questioning them and/or being suspicious of them.

1) You charge afatchic to reconcile two statements. I think the posts you quoted contained the answer to your question. afatchic made himself clear: he thought Moospiker was a newb, but still didn't approve of him playing the "excuse me, I'm a newb" card. I think that this question, and your perseverance with it, was unnecessary and perhaps calculated to add more suspicion to afatchic than his posts actually warranted.

So you don't think that afatchic's two comments:
"Moo is just a newb"
"Moo is not acting like a townie and I am very suspicious of him"
are contradictory?
In what way do you believe they are consistent? Or else, what do you think changed in the three intervening posts to change afatchic's mind?

I think my perseverance was totally necessary and afatchic's posts should be considered far more suspicious than most other players have attached to them.

2) Vi accuses you of misrepresenting people, i.e. Machiavellian-Mafia. You ask how you've misrepresented Vi. Either it was unintentional and wasteful or it was intentional redirection.

I don't even remember this, and the fact that no-one else brought it up suggests to me that it wasn't significant to anyone.
But I am interested to hear why you regard it as, at best, unintentional

and wasteful

.
Do you believe that wastefulness is scummy?
How is it wasteful anyway?
Can you describe the thought process you went through to dismiss the possibility that it was just unintentional (and so was, instead, "unintentional and wasteful")?

~~~

I don't quite know what it is about the claim: it's probably that it reads like an attempt to turn back the momentum against him, when read in context of Machiavellian-Mafia's preceding post and the vote on afatchic following it.

Well...that's exactly what it was...
How is that scummy?

At the time I claimed, I had defended myself and had identified maybe two players who were prepared to vote for me regardless of what I said. One of the players I who wasn't in that category was MM, and he had basically said "claim or die." So I claimed.
And whilst I'm alive I still have my voice and my vote and I'm entitled to use them both. If I choose to take a close look at the positions that afatchic and charter have taken, and they come under scrutiny that they otherwise wouldn't have, then we can both agree that that is a good, pro-town thing to do. Or do you disagree?

[eldarad]

He's saying I'm scum cause I post in other games more frequently than this one...
Actually, he's not saying it, he's trying to get you to say/think it. Quite scummy of him in fact.

So do you think Vi is scummy then?

Any thoughts on Sche since he has replaced in? Still happy with an eldarad-Sche scumteam?

[eldarad]

The issue was town suspicion. You voted after the town had become suspicious of afatchic and charter, correct? When drew attention to that behaviour, you said that you helped generate that suspicion.

Was it your goal to generate suspicion of afatchic and charter? If so, I must assume that as town you found them worthy of a lynch at the point when you thought they were worth lynching and therefore worth your vote. That's my confusion.

The issue was the timing of my vote. If you want to discuss "town suspicion" then we can do so. But that is a seperate question to the one you asked.
I still don't agree that voting is the only way of expressing suspicion - which is the basis of your question, even after the re-phrasing.

I asked charter and afatchic questions that would give me insight into their motivation. The aim wasn't specifically to "create suspicion" but if their answers were suspicious, then we've got a lead (and, more to the point, a lead that wasn't me) which is a good thing.

You misread his statements. I bolded words to help. Was that intentional? I sort of think it is, especially because you maintain the initial read instead of rereading it.

So...you think that I have intentionally lied about a fact that can be easily verified? Right...

The shift between those two posts is pretty dramatic, and IMO the catalyst for the change was charter's expression of suspicion in #85. Even so, I don't see anything in the intervening posts that would change afatchic's opinion from "unsure" to "I may put him at L-1."

Second, I will have to ask Vi, but it appears that making the point you tried to dodge was more important to Vi than noting you were dodging in that instance.

Reading Vi's reply in #467, it really does look like you're the only person who knows what the hell you're talking about here...

~~~
So, I've been a L-1 or thereabouts for ages now, and I haven't been hammered yet. What do you all think that means?

[eldarad]

interesting that the hammer comes right after eldarad posts "hurrr hurr I'm at l-1, I bet that means I'm town" (no, this isn't want he posted exactly, but it's a basically what he said)

That isn't really what I said. I want you to think about my wagon Tomorrow, so having a couple of people express opinions on it Today might have been useful.

Anyway, I'll see you all on the other side.