Kairyuu wrote:@Artem: So I'm scum because I'm playing like you did when you were scum? That is the weakest thing you have brought against me thus far, and it carried your vote. If you find it a problem that I find more than one person suspicious at once, then you really need to stick to your newbie games, where everything is so much simpler. You are using
your own meta
to try to say I am scum! Honestly, I would be quite happy if either you or afatchic was lynched today, because you are the two most obvious scum I have ever played with.
Ok, let's take a deep breath and separate the game from reality. There is no need to make personal attacks.
Also, my own meta is a good indication to me that you're scum, because I know the thought process that goes behind being scum.
Kair wrote:
Most recent example of your making things up.
I did NOT FOS you until you began using your double standard.
I do not
care
what you consider an
implied FOS
.
If I did not actually say I was doing it, then I WAS NOT DOING IT! If I did not SAY that I SUSPECTED you, then FINGER OF SUSPICION DOES NOT APPLY.
Why are you so keen on arguing semantics? What difference does it make whether you meant it explicitly or not? Is it so you can continue calling me a liar or is it so you can say I over-reacted when posting my explanation for the vote?
I've already explained that I was realizing you were leaning towards me being town. Like I said, I could have just taken it and moved on but I thought it would be interesting to post my thoughts because of your FoS (notice here that it doesn't matter whether you think it's an FoS or not for me to read it as one) and because it related to what afatchic did.
Kair wrote:
Another funny thing to note, now you are taking arguments against you and twisting them around to make it look like they are aimed at me. You quoted where Nightwolf said I mentioned it was a
possibility
that you were trying to build a weak case against me, but you
completely left out
the part where he said:
Nightwolf wrote:Then you see that he only mentioned that this was a possibility, not that he is saying Artem did do it. Kairyuu says that he actually thinks Artem just misread his post, which is what I think I've seen a few times during this discussion.
However, Artem just focuses on the part that Kairyuu says in that same sentence he doesn't really believe yet because its what helps his case.
This seems to be a pretty large stretch to try to come up with an argument, though.
Seems like you're doing the same thing to Nighwolf in order to help your case again.
So, the concern is that I didn't address the rest of Nightwolf's post, and therefore, the rest of your post. I beg to differ:
Artem wrote:
Yes, he was also leaning towards me being town. I'm not saying he wasn't.
I did not bold the sentences when I first quoted them because it doesn't explain what the FoS was (yes, yes, I know, it wasn't an FoS, but I read it as one). But just because it wasn't bolded doesn't mean I wasn't agreeing with it. It was simply irrelevant to the point I was making.
Kair wrote:
Also, you keep calling me 'jumpy.'
I am not jumpy.
Not
one
thing I have said has not been backed up with evidence. I am
sick
and
tired
of your consistantly trying to tell me that you are
explaining your vote
while nitpicking and attacking
every single thing I say
. The best part, is that you have been
making things up to make a case against me
.
Ok, here's the sequence of posts when you're saying I'm attacking you.
Post
69: I post the (wrong) logic that motivated my vote. I then say that I have a problem with players posting numbers and not explaining where they are coming from. Note that this is a very generic statement, I'm not saying you are doing it. If anything, I'm quoting afatchic's post as an example.
Post
73: You're saying that I'm calling you out on something and basically explain to me (again) why my logic is wrong (even though we both agree that it is at this point). You're also FoSing me for giving a special treatment to afatchic (more on this later).
Post
88: I am explicitly stating that I'm not calling you out on anything but simply explaining the reasons behind my vote. I then go over things like scum always have (12-lynch-scum) possibilities and "we (notice that it's a generic "we", not directed at you) should not make assumptions that claims somehow reduce night choices for scum", hence there is no "instead of".
Post
95: You get even more defensive, asking me to point out a place where you're making any assumptions about night choice reduction. This is followed by some more discussion of afatchic.
Post
113: Some more discussion of afatchic. I am also replying to sekinj's statement about me trying to appease you and point out that aggressive behavior is a good pro-town tactic but can also be used by scum.
Post
119: More afatchic discussion, followed by you agreeing that aggressive behavior is a null-tell.
Post
120: My reply to SL. For the third time, I'm stating that my posts were an explanation of the (flawed) logic behind my vote, which I (mistakenly) thought was what SL was asking me about. Followed is some comparison to NG 588.
Post
121: Kair calls me a liar because he FoSd me about my treatment of afatchic and not because of my first vote on him.
That more or less brings us to here. So, a few things:
1. If all I was doing was explaining some of the (flawed) logic behind my vote as well as some discussion about what I have problems with, why was Kair continuously taking a defensive stance? In my experience, scum is paranoid about being suspected. Mafia likes to look as pro-town as possible and will over-react to any hint of suspicion. I've done it as scum, I've seen other players (particularly, new players) do it as scum. (I can provide links if anybody cares)
2. The problem that I
do
have with Kair is that he's making up me giving afatchic some sort of a special treatment. He says that we're scum buddies and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt over the same issue that I voted him on. However, Kair still has to address the following:
Artem wrote:
If afatchic was my buddy, would I even be bringing up the question in the first place? Why would me-scum be asking afatchic-my-buddy a question and then immediately answering it myself? What's the point in drawing attention to a number everybody else glossed over?
Right now, I don't see why his "special treatment" case against me makes sense. All I'm seeing is a fabrication of suspicion, perhaps in hopes of pouncing on me if the attack on afatchic falls through. Fabrication of suspicion (especially, when calling somebody a liar when they are not) is a scum-tell in my book.
3.
mykonian wrote:
The way I see it, it is more of a reaction against Kairyuu agressiveness. He attacks a few people hard on small things, and you think it is too much, overdone. I think it is his way of playing, and that it is his way of searching scum. You've got to admit, his attacks at least brought some action into this game, and it is also a fact that his attacks made people defend, and people react. Go look for information in that.
As I said before, aggressiveness can be used by both town and scum, and I
am
looking at how people react. I'm looking at how
he
is reacting and it has scum written all over it. Besides, scum isn't the only thing he's hunting for:
Kair wrote:
You claim that you think Nightwolf and I are town and that you have a reason to think that, but you don’t provide it. What have either of us done to affirm our towniness in your eyes?
You also claim that you think CF Riot, Artem, and sekinj are town, but don’t even tell us if you have a reason to think that. It would be much appreciated if you didn’t make unsupported assertions like that.
He's basically asking for justification behind Germy's statement that he (Germy) sees certain players as town. Germy correctly points out that we shouldn't be townie-hunting:
Germy wrote:
There is no reason to provide support for why I think particular players are Town. Scumhunting is good - towniehunting is bad.
Hypothetical example: I think mykonian is the Cop while sekinj and springlullaby are masons . I should not say in the thread, "I think mykonian is Town because he's made these cop tells," or "I think sekinj and springlullaby are Town because they act like masons." Unless it's endgame where such information is useful for narrowing down scum, I will not explain my reasons for whom I think is Town.
To which Kair backtracks to:
Kair wrote:
As for your reason for not backing up your assumed town section, you are misinterpreting what I'm asking for. I did not ask you to list all of the tells that we left, but rather support your opinions. Stating that "I like his playstyle, it's very logical" does not tell the scum any more than "I think he is town, and I have a reason for that." In fact, it tells them less, because by saying you have a reason you won't state, you are implying that you think they are a power role. Saying that they are logical just says that you like their opinions. I will never ask anyone who they think is a power role. Reading Newbie 588 (Hi Artem) shows why this is an extremely bad idea, because that is what made the mafia win in that game. I will repeat my question: Why do you think those of us you mentioned as town are town, in a general or playstyle related way?
I don't think there's any way to misinterpret what Kair was asking for. He was asking for support of Germy's view that certain players are town. What he's doing now is arguing semantics. In particular,
Kair wrote:Stating that "I like his playstyle, it's very logical" does not tell the scum any more than "I think he is town, and I have a reason for that."
It also doesn't tell Kair any more about why Germy thinks somebody to be town. So why ask for it in the first place? You can slice it however you want, but Kair is townie-hunting while trying to cover it up with semantics. That's a scum-tell.
I've already said that we shouldn't be listing who we think is town. The best thing you can do for somebody who you think is town is not discuss them unless circumstances require it (for example, a cop having an innocent result on somebody about to get lynched, or an end-game scenario). We certainly shouldn't be having any townie discussion during day 1.
So, to summarize, I think Kair is scum because:
-He is overly defensive;
-He is fabricating suspicion;
-He is townie-hunting;
-He is arguing semantics;
All four are scum-tells in my book and the combination of these puts Kair at the place of my primary suspect. My vote stays.