Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[CrashTextDummie]

CrashTextDummy replaces bird1111

*CrashTextDummie

Hello guys, I'm replacing bird1111. Most of you probably don't remember me, so let me introduce myself:

My name is CTD, and I'm a habitual lurker and frequent drop-out. I was shocked and appalled to see that all these other, lesser slackers were invited before me.

So

shocked and

so

appalled actually that I've decided to come out of perpetual lurking to show you how it's really done.

But fear not, for I am working under a stringent, self-imposed one-post-per-day regiment. And as a show of good faith, I'm gonna try to recollect what I know about all the players in this game:

bluesoul

- I vaguely remember playing in a game that he modded. I believe he abandoned it.

chamber

- Uh, I dunno? I'm sure we've played together at

some

point, but he didn't leave a lasting impression.

Elias_the_Thief

- Hearing his name gives me flashes of a newbie game we may or may not have played together, in which he may or may not have been scum. No seriously, not even the mod knew for sure. Also, he may have dropped out. I'm keeping score here.

elvis_knits

- I can say with modest confidence that I have no recollection of ever playing with her before at all. I may have read a couple games of her, maybe.

Ether

- Hm, yes, the name does ring a bell, ever so faintly. I believe I replaced her once. Those were the good times.

MrBuddyLee

- I do sort of remember getting nightkilled by him once, because I had him and his buddy utterly figured out. I may be wrong though, that was a long time ago.

Patrick

- Isn't he the guy that's famous for sucking at endgames? Or maybe he's the guy that's never scum? I'm not sure here, could be either.

Pablito

- Oh, oh, I do remember! No, wait... Something about a hopelessly confusing newbie (in which

someone

dropped out, but couldn't say who for sure at this point). And lepers. That's a strange memory.

HackerHuck

- I think he doesn't tend to be alive when I get involved in games. But maybe that's because I usually don't get involved in games during the early goings. Or maybe it's because I just don't recall.

ChannelDelibird

- I vaguely remember replacing him once. And him replacing me. I think we're drop-out buddies or something.

DrippingGoofball

- Nope, don't remember her.

Must. Suppress. Memories.

Well, that's it. I should probably read the game now, right? I don't really remember the protocol.

[CrashTextDummie]

Unvote

, while I'm at it.

Any deadline I should be aware of?

[CrashTextDummie]

Well, looks like I'm off to a good start.

I've read up to page 10, and I'm gonna post a little summary now mostly for me to gather my thoughts because I didn't take as many notes as I would have liked to and I'm going to bed in a minute.

If I was in the game at this point, my vote would have been on Bluesoul, mostly for vibes and not in particular for any of the points brought up against him (he was on the spotlight quite a lot until now). I feel like he has concentrated his efforts so far mostly on technicalities or easy to attack players, and that he has done so in an aggressive and assertive manner that doesn't seem quite sincere to me. Has been calling for DGBs head for most of the game so far, but mostly kept her on the backburner as far as his arguments go.

I'm generally a bit puzzled by the lack of vote movement. Those 10 pages have been a seemingly endless stream of discussion where, for the most part, no verifiable conclusions were ever drawn. Somewhat irritating. I'd lean towards showing willingness to throw your vote around being a pro-town trait in this situation, though I haven't really done the research on who this applies to.

It bothers me how Patrick isn't easy to read for me anymore. He sometimes seems to be inquisitive for the sake of being inquisitive (as opposed to actually being interested in the answers he's seeking). Apart from an early post where I felt very in tune with him, I for the most part lacked that feeling of overwhelming pro-townness I remember getting from him.

On the other hand, I don't get why Patrick and Ether expressed difficulty in reading PJ (not to mention some other people who expressed difficulty in reading PJ in general). His posts in this game pretty clearly fit the meta, as far as I'm concerned.

MBL is a lot more verbose than I'm used from him in the early goings of a game, which tells me first and foremost that he came into this game to perform. This is reminiscent of a town-performance in recent memory and therefore makes me lean towards pro-town, but not without caveats. Gonna have to mull them over before putting them into words though.

Having taken a peak at the current vote-counts, I took a special interest in the posts of Elias_the_thief and elvis_knits, though I haven't seen anything worth getting excited over yet. Elias' has been shamefully inactive, but his one post of note looked decent enough to me, and matched my own pro-town perspective pretty well. E_k has been a bit too passive for my taste, which could become bothersome if it turns out to be her general MO.

Last but not least, I'll be having a close eye on IH. He's somewhat reminiscent of a scum-performance I once overlooked as mod.

That's it for now, more tasty contribution once I've had a good night's sleep.

[CrashTextDummie]

You assume correctly. My meta on him is based mostly on tone, and I'm taking into account that he may have been playing somewhat differently due to his knowledge of having to be replaced in the future (at that point in the game), as he quite believably claims. I take it you haven't considered this fact when evaluating his play against your meta of him?

More reading and analysis later in the day.

[CrashTextDummie]

This game's momentum is dying. We have a lot of information to work with today, but very little on a few people. I'm very much looking forward to seeing CTD in action.. when he's town he's damned good. *crosses fingers*

Are you saying that I suck as scum?

Welcome CTD. My main recollection of you is your old avatar of the cat wearing a melon helmet. At least I think that was you.

That was me. It was a lime helmet though. Limecat is not pleased with your distortion of this fact. Also I don't lurk in plain sight, it's not my style. Half of Mafiascum can attest to the fact that I prefer old fashioned straight lurking.

In unrelated news, I've continued my read up to and including page 16. Urge to lynch bluesoul... rising. Urge to lynch MBL also rising. The game actually got very involving and I feel quite awake, so I will finish in one sitting and post my reasoning in the full analysis.

[CrashTextDummie]

Finished my read. Game got progressively more strenuous as it went on. Here's some food for thought (I know you're all starving for it):

elvis_knits

- I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases. None of them had any real basis to them as far as I'm concerned (least of all DGB's), and the annoyance she expressed at this fact sounded legitimate to me. There are also instances of distinct pro-town thinking in her posts, most notably Post 352, in which she rejects the very underhanded approach of accusing someone of being scum by association.

Post 406 also strongly resonated with me, because it's true. At least at that point in the game, there

was

an environment of paranoia, as evidenced by the stark lack of vote movement I noticed in my earlier analysis. I also don't get at all why she was attacked for this observation - as far as I can see, she didn't attack anyone in particular for this (in fact, she refused to attack anyone in particular when prompted). She didn't even imply that this situation was master-planned by scum, and indeed is doesn't have to be. Paranoia is a potent weapon for the scum precisely because townies like to indulge in it on their own.

I still have the problem that he is playing very passively, but those instances where she does go on the attack reassure me of my read.

DrippingGoofball

- She's the player who was most focused on, and it's kind of a pain because she's so tough to read. I wasn't impressed by her early game shenanigans (of particular note is her calling for more votes and wagons, while keeping her own vote close to the chest), I wasn't impressed by her implosion and baiting to be lynched, and I certainly wasn't impressed by her analysis, which was obvious BS. This is evidenced by the fact that she pretty much analyzed everyone under the pre-formed decision that e_k is scum, which just doesn't hold any ground as a serious approach. It's not at all surprising to me that she got a lot more offensive once she stopped being poked at. For any other player, this would be an open and shut case, but since it's DGB, I can't be sure. Still, that makes her a decent lynch in my opinion.

bluesoul

- Yep, still my top suspect. He spent the better part of the early game bickering with a number of people over subtleties and technicalities, which was entirely pointless and destructive for the town. Once he decided to start doing some scum-hunting, he quickly honed in on DGB and stayed there for what felt like a heck of a long time. I called her an "easy to attack player" in my earlier mini-analysis, which may have been an over-statement. I am critical of players who attack people like DGB (or BM, or similar types) from the get-go, because I myself find them so hard to read and usually dismiss them until there's more material to work with. So this may just be a difference in play-styles between bluesoul and myself.

What is not just a difference in play-styles is how his suspicions and his behavior towards certain wagons evolved over the course of the game. It felt to me like he very consciously avoided the elvis_knits wagon, by stating multiple times that he's sticking with DGB. It is of note though that he explicitly wasn't opposed to it either:

The e_k wagon built up more than I was really expecting and I don't know if I like that it went that readily from the former vote-leader pointing a finger. I think one of the other invitational games had the same scenario, mneme the vote-leader deflected to pooky, the wagon got back on mneme who was in fact lynched as scum. I'm not equating the playstyle but I am equating the scenario and I'm not sure when exactly DGB stopped being the best lynch for the day. I'm not going to fight this particular wagon but I am going to be inspecting it rather closely, along with the original DGB wagon.

I voted elias to start discussion; I'd say it did exactly that. You don't have to like it, but don't automatically group me in with those that are on him for making a case from another player's content. I honestly don't find it as egregious a sin as people are making it out to be, but I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon which I'm still rather ambivalent on; something about how it's developed just feels odd.

Why yes, he is ambivalent, and it's a scummy ambivalence, in my humble opinion. The impression I am getting is that he wouldn't have cared at all which wagon took of, but that he didn't think he could afford switching himself to help momentum because it was a pretty clear elvis vs. DGB situation and this move could have been perceived as a U-turn.

On the other hand, he didn't have any reservations whatsoever to jump on Elias. Elias again seems like an easy target to me. He got the vote initially for being decidedly uninterested in the game, and bluesouls vote seemed to come more out of annoyance then of actual suspicion. And he seemingly keeps it there for the same reason. He doesn't even hide the fact that he's "voting whoever's closest to lynch so we can get some real info to chew on", which is an inherently anti-town stance. Is he even suspicious of anyone anymore? Not that I can tell. He's even bumped DGB off the table after hounding her for so long, which is just WTF to me.

I also have issues with his general tone. Use of smilies and words like "honestly" point towards the kind of self-awareness that scum is more prone to than town. He also seemed to lose interest somewhat once the DGB wagon didn't go through, which indicates to me that he's more likely to push an agenda as opposed to actually being interested in scum-hunting. Put it all together and you have a guy that should be lynched.

MrBuddyLee

- I've mentioned his obvious desire to perform well in this game as possibly pointing towards him being town, mostly based on my last experience playing with him (Mafia 64: The New "C9"). However, there have been a number of smarmy scum-MBL style posts creeping up. Stuff like Post 344 or Post 690, where he twists his interpretation of behavior to suit his purpose. I didn't like his involvement on either the e_k nor the Elias wagon and overall he gives me the willies, which is a very bad sign when I'm playing with MBL. I don't feel as strongly about him as I do about bluesoul, but I wouldn't mind seeing him dead sooner rather than later either.

I'll split this up now because it's already much longer than I anticipated. Part 2 forthcoming.

PPE: bluesouls latest post was not taken into account when writing this analysis. I'll get back to it once I'm done with everyone else.

[CrashTextDummie]

Patrick

- My suspicions on him have mellowed somewhat, mostly because others have gained in substance. I disagree with him on almost everything of relevance, which is somewhat disconcerting considering my meta on him. Then again, my meta on him is "Patrick is always right in everything he does and a beacon of everything pro-town when town, and who knows what the heck he does as scum", and I think he mentioned himself that this might be a little outdated. I'll hold off judgment on him for now. Should get easier to read once dead people start piling up.

Elias_the_thief

- Dear Elias_the_thief, why are you in this game? You should have been replaced a long, long time ago. Alas, you're here, and we might as well make the best of it. And I see that you're trying now.

I must say I am as puzzled as he is as to why he's pretty much being run up for shameful non-participation when he evidently put that phase behind him. My take on his wagon is that he made himself open to attack by flaunting his indifference (which in general is a null-tell, as far as I'm concerned), and people jumped on it. This makes me very hesitant to believe that he is scum. As does the fact that bluesoul and MBL are on it. I also thought that his emotional outbreak seemed sincere enough. I didn't get a clear read on him based on the content he provided, but the make-up and development of his wagon make him someone I don't want to vote for today. May revisit once more info is on the table.

Ether

- Somewhat surprisingly, my experience with Ether is limited. I wouldn't consider the games we played together standard enough to base a meta on, and I don't think I've ever seen her as scum. The only thing I can go on is a game in which I replaced her, and her play here seems reminiscent of that game to me. Here like there, she picked a target and basically stuck to it, only bothering with other people tangentially. I might have to read a game where she was scum to see whether her laid-back attitude and general lack of pro-activity is dependent on alignment. Anyone got any? Not particularly interested in her right now.

Chamber

- Was somewhat weirded out by his outburst of information early on. The fact that he regressed to mostly one- to two-liners has made him easy to read over. The brashness of his Elias vote is generally a point in his favor, because I imagine the scum to be too tense for such a move considering the gravity of the game (unless they're named DGB). I don't consider him a lynch-option at this point, will revisit tomorrow.

Pablito

- I'm glad it's PJ he replaced, because otherwise he'd be driving me mad. I've pretty much taken him out of the equation based on my meta on PJ, and I probably won't reconsider until a lot of people are dead and/or something unexpected happens. I must admit I glazed over most of his mega-posts because I know from experience that they make my head hurt a lot. I might reread him for posterity.

I'll leave it at that for the moment, because my ability to put my thoughts into words is rapidly deteriorating. I'll deliver thoughts on HackerHuck and ChannelDelibird (please get yourself replaced, mate) in my mandatory post of tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'll answer this because I'm crazy and sleep is for the weak.

You found DGB suspect and bluesoul moreso. bluesoul's sort of suspected DGB for much of today and DGB suspected bluesoul for the duration of her time under heavy pressure. Considering these are quite possibly your top two suspects, do you get a read of scumteam distancing off them or a read of one of them setting the other up as a fall guy?

I find it distinctly possible that bluesoul was bussing/distancing from DGB, mostly because of the ease with which he let her slide off the radar, now that mostly everyone has lost interest in her.

Also, what do you think of DGB's leap to ME of all people when she was about to be lynched?

Note that a week after voting me as "obvscum" DGB posted the following:

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

Also, how about her leap to elvis once DGB was safe and the public consensus was elvis looked bad? Would you say DGB's use of elvis as the yardstick by which to measure all others looks more like scum hiding behind a screwed townie or scum plotting to vindicate themselves when their scumpartner comes up dirty? (Or genuine town screwiness?)

I firmly believe that DGB tries to sow as much confusion as she possibly can as scum due to her generally short life-expectancy. I think she stated so herself on a previous occasion. Therefore, I haven't put too much thought into the particularities of her antics. I doubt I'd comb her madness for possible slip-ups even if she comes up scum. The same pretty much applies if she comes up town.

I'll elaborate further on my opinion of DGB and why I wouldn't mind lynching her later. Good night.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, do you think the wagon on elias has served any purpose? You seem to condemn a few people for being on it, or vice-versa.

What kind of question is that? Every wagon serves a purpose in the long run. If you were meaning to ask if I find it to be justified, it should be obvious the answer is no.

And no I am not condemning people for being on it, you have my causalities mixed up. Bluesoul being on it is just one reason I am suspicious of him, and in your case it's more the tone of attack (which displays the kind of spin you like to use as scum) thant the actual placement on the wagon.

I am curious though: Do you think bluesouls stated reasons for voting Elias are justified enough for a lynch?

Also, did elias seem to be scumhunting? Accurately? You don't comment at all on his suspicions and don't seem to intend to in the near future, which is bizarre.

Elias seemed to be ranting more than anything. I didn't see particular reason to object to his suspicions, or I would have pointed them out. And I don't see where you get the impression that I'm unwilling to comment on him in the near future, as I clearly state that I don't think there's enough material to judge him upon on his own. I dislike the wagon and won't support it based on what we have, don't see what's bizarre about that.

How on earth have you managed to apply your meta of PJ to this game? Do you think that's reasonable and/or wise given the way he played and the comments he made about his level of enthusiasm?

My meta on him must be better than yours? I used to annoy him by accurately reading him based on his first 10 posts of a game. It works in the vast majority of cases, and I think is a pretty clear fit in this one. And yes, it takes his level of enthusiasm into account, seeing as it's been a thing for him for a pretty long time now.

Kudos for posting promptly, but I have to say I've been more impressed with your past work. This batch of cookies you've baked us tastes a little flat, though I'll cut you slack for the volume of chaff you sorted through and the late hours. But I definitely didn't get the town feel from you tonight that I got in the Large Open.

It's okay, big boy, I understand. It's probably because I didn't have 100 pages and several day/night cycles to work with, which usually help me get a grasp or things. Or it could be because I'm not replacing someone you already had a pro-town read on. Or it could be because you're scum. Take your pick.

More analysis coming tonight, as usual.

Vote: bluesoul

, because I forgot yesterday.

[CrashTextDummie]

elvis, I'm just having fun with little statements like those. Clearly I don't expect that everyone will drop their pants and realize I'm town just cause I say so. But as town I'm really not worried about it either, because my protown playstyle is already shining through. And it's a little curious that CTD hasn't picked up on it yet, because he nailed my alignment in both of the last two games we played together and he was town in both.

You are curiously omitting the fact that I wavered a whole lot on you in one of the games you are citing, and in fact had the intention to lynch you at the time I was replaced. It was the one you were town in also, for those who aren't familiar with that game.

You're a lot easier to read when you are scum.

I'm wondering now if CTD is scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town. He cuts her way too much slack/doesn't really seem to have read her posts carefully, cause there's a lot wrong in her posts imo.

And I'm wondering if

you

are scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town, by painting my defense of her as anything other than an accurate read.

She's one of about 4 people I spent the most attention on for what it's worth. Kind of beneath you to cast suspicion on a player for not seeing something you (believe or pretend to) see. You should know better.

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

Fair enough. Considering my self-imposed posting-quota, I can't have enough topics to write about. I'll try to get to it tomorrow, since I still have to finish my analysis.

[CrashTextDummie]

Actually, I think you nailed the initial read and then on your road to replacement you got on my ass after the GF posted a wall-o-text against me. I assumed you were just paying less attention or something--my read on you didn't really change. More importantly, your suspicions in both games were nuanced, so I think I'll be able to read you just fine this game. It's tough to fake that kind of sincerity and earnestness. I got a VERY protown read off of you in 64.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I got on your ass on my own, as you didn't get under heavy fire until after I bowed out. But I disgress...

What you're saying here illustrates perfectly why your argument against me here is entirely without merit and fallacious. I am town in this game, and yet you are seemingly not able to see it like you did in 64. Does that mean you are scum? No it doesn't. Just as me not reading you accurately shouldn't tell you anything about my alignment.

"Burden of Infallible Reading"? Not gonna fly.

If there's anything particular about my attack against you that you find scummy, spill it. "He didn't spot my town-tells" doesn't cut it.

If elvis goes down as town, I'd be one of the first ones to get scrutinized. I sincerely believe she's likely scum, and will have much splaining to do if she gets bumped and comes up good guy. I see no way I'll "profit" should elvis come up town before I die. Odd attempt at turnabout by you, indicating a possible (albeit understandable for now) thinness of your comprehension of gamestate.

I shouldn't have to spell this out for you, but whatever. It feels to me like you're trying to set me up as a fall guy in the event of an elvis mislynch, and the fact that I'm protesting the wagon makes this even more ludicrous.

But while we're entertaining the thought, who else would elvis coming up as town point to as scum? Someone on the wagon perhaps?

Jumping on e_k vs. jumping on elias: I don't see how the two situations equate honestly. Elvis had a rather sizable wagon that, at the time, I was not comfortable enough with the reasoning on to join, but not opposed to ending the day for info, thus ambivalence. At this point I find elvis protown so I won't be getting on that wagon today.

Since when do you find elvis protown, and what prompted this change of heart? Your stance towards her previously ranged from on-the-fence to willing-to-vote.

And I didn't say the two situations equate, I'm saying they're separate instances that fit a pattern of you being scum.

Elias, on the other hand, had either zero or one vote (don't remember) and had been given precious little examination. Pretty awesome that "scumhunting" is only such when it's not an "easy target".

Excuse me, but "scumhunting"? What scummy actions are you accusing Elias of, exactly? It doesn't matter much to me when you joined the wagon, what matters is that you're still on it, for stated reason: "I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon".

I also find it funny that you hedge your bets on the "easy to attack" statement after I post asking for more information, of course you didn't read it, now it's just a playstyle difference. Convenient, wot?

I'm not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting me here or if I didn't express myself clearly enough. I didn't say it's just a playstyle difference, I said it

may

just be a playstyle difference. People who park their vote early on players whose alignment is generally impossible to determine based on their posting alone instead of trying to get a read on people that are actually readable are either lazy or scum in my opinion. Sarcastro would be an example of the former, and since you strike me as scum for a lot of other reasons, I brought it up as a point against you. Am I clearer now?

My tone: Yes, I am acutely aware of what I'm writing all the time. It has less to do with playstyle/metagame/whatever than it has to do with my background as a writer. I don't see how this is an argument either way; you are not required to like my tone, God knows I don't like it when players say "Well, I don't really think about what I'm writing." Language is the core of thought; without language there is no thought, and if you don't think about your words I'd call that a fair indicator you're not taking the subject seriously. This is mafia theory at best though, and really goes quite a ways past that so if you wish to debate on it we can do so privately.

I say your choice of words and tone strike me as scummy, you say they are chosen deliberately. That doesn't mean much to me, but we can leave it at that.

I resent your dismissal of this line of thought as "mafia theory at best" though, because it is integral to my method of scumhunting, which is based on vibes above all. But since you haven't done any scumhunting of notice in this game, I can see why you wouldn't understand that.

Bussing/distancing from DGB: Not a totally unreasonable accusation, but I'm simply not enough of an asshole to keep on someone just to act triumphant if they end up scum. She appeared scummy for most of the game and her posts lately have been significantly less so. That doesn't mean I'm exonerating her entirely, it means that to me now she's had both scummy and protown moments. Just a quirk you're going to have to deal with.

Please provide instances of protown moments for DGB.

I'm starting work on my assignment for today, which is to finish my analysis of HackerHuck and CDB. Maybe more, depending on how long it takes me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Ah yes, forgot to comment on this:

In particular, if someone's "too sure" about someone else's scumminess, or clears them for slim reasons, scumpair is a distinct possibility. It's all in the tone though--are they being deceitful or lazy?

Or maybe there's a third possibility: they are simply accurate in their read and you are not.

See, this is the kind of stuff that simply rubs me the wrong way about you, MBL. You examine a situation and tailor it to suit your purposes (in this case to paint me as either deceitful or lazy), while leaving everything out that doesn't fit the picture you're trying to present. It's manipulative and dishonest.

If you think my reasons to think elvis is probably town are slim, elaborate. I'm particularly interested to hear why you think scum would make a post like 406

[CrashTextDummie]

Channel Delibird

- IH was completely useless. What little is there reminds me of an open game I've modded in which he was scum, but it's too little to go on considering his incredibly small body of contribution.

CDBs first post of note sounds decent enough, and it's actually striking how much it fits my current suspicions (he concentrates on DGB and bluesoul, while also touching on MBL and OGML). His second post of note however I find baffling. I don't see what he finds compelling about DGBs case against elvis at all (I could elaborate, but I don't remember to which extent elvis has already defended herself against it), and the fact that he puts elvis at L-1 based on it, despite saying stating earlier that DGB is his prime suspect and that her previous actions cannot be ignored, is more than a little disturbing.

Even more baffling however is his unvote of elvis in Post 575. He's not sure he's on the wagon for "the right reasons"? As in DGBs reasons which he found compelling enough to put someone at L-1? This is almost laughably inconsistent. Exactly why is MBL claiming that CDBs game has matured in his opinion?

Wouldn't mind lynching him either.

And I just wanted to quote this because I think it's funny:

In other news, I agree with MBL's sentiment on Elias re: doing the game justice, but I don't want to vote him for it, I just want him to post or be replaced.

HackerHuck next.

[CrashTextDummie]

I got sidetracked there for a bit. Hope I didn't hold the game hostage for too long.

HackerHuck

- OGML's part of the game looks pretty clean to me. I think it's a protown move to recognize and question when a player is going buddy-buddy on you for no apparent reason, the way he did with MBL in the early goings. I also like the fact that he didn't really get involved in all the DGB business and instead concentrated his efforts on people that generally weren't discussed much by the town at large.

HackerHuck was also swayed to some extent by DGBs case against elvis, but his rationale for this is one I can actually follow from a town point of view (even though I don't agree with it), particularly because he reads DGB as town. I find his thought process to be easy to comprehend and generally consider it to be consistent, and he made some observations that indicate a keen interest in finding scum. The only thing that stood out a bit was his placement of my predecessors in his top 3 at one point, if only because his stated suspicion (which was there pretty much from the beginning) didn't feel that strong to me in relation to other people he's commented on. It's only a small point though. Not interested in this fellow.

That wraps up my analysis, unless I missed someone. I've read those last two guys in isolation, which I think helped the quality of the picture I'm seeing, particularly compared to my reads on people like Ether and Chamber. So I'll add doing that for others to my to-do list should I ever run out of material.

Now could we get a roll call, please? I believe we have 12 players, yet I only see 4 posting. This is an invitational, guys, try to rise to the occasion.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD - You call out DGB for her approach in which she composes her analysis with the preconceived notion that E_K is scum. I call out Elias for the doing same thing yet it doesn't seem to cause a blip on your radar. Are you predisposed to find Elias as town?

It's possible that I am. By the time he actually started appearing on the map, I had already formed an opinion on most other players, and that certainly played a part in how I perceived the attacks made against him. I've reread his posts just now to check if I have missed something, and I stand by my point. Based on his posts alone, I don't think there is a compelling case for him being scum.

That is not to say that I find his posts particularly pro-town. So far he's been very selective in who and what he commented on, and that makes him tough to place for me. However, there's no reason for me to assume that he's done this deliberately or because of a scummy motive, it's just a result of him not being around for large parts of the game.

As for your DGB/Elias comparison, I respectfully disagree. His suspicion of DGB is consistent with an earlier analysis of his, and it's not unreasonable for him to go into a reread with this in mind and confirming his suspicion. And it's not at all comparable to what DGB did, which was linking as many people as possible to elvis_knits in order to establish the "elvis axis of evil".

It's also worth pointing out that I don't find this particularly damning for her, as you seem to think I do. It's possible that DGB is a townie who thinks she caught scum, and that building over-the-top fallacious cases is part of her pro-town method of madness. I just don't get why it made so many people reconsider her, particularly those who thought she was scum before.

I'm now a little concerned about my previous thoughts. CTD - one of my top three suspects - manages to call out my other top three suspects as being solidly town and not worth pursuing today. I cant fathom that CTD as scum would call out all of his scum-buddies as solid town, so that means I'm wrong about at least a couple of them - or that CTD is

really

bad at spotting scum.

I was going to say "or maybe YOU are really bad at spotting scum", but I still have hopes for you.

Let's talk about CDB, for example. You pointed out something about his play that bothered me as well, but it didn't seem to register as scummy enough for you to consider him a suspect. Why do you think Elias' play is worse than CDB's glaring inconsistency?

And I actually still want to know how my predecessors ended up on your top 3, because your comments on them have been sparse in relation to other people you suspect.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, elvis is trying to discourage the use of a very successful method of scumhunting, and she's doing it SPECIFICALLY because it's being used against her. (see bolded) I'd feel a lot more comfortable if she at least pointed out one other player she thought was being victimized by this terrible scumtactic. Another thing to look for in my reread of elvis. (And I doubt I'll find it.)

I'm not arguing that the use of patterns between players isn't a successful method of scumhunting. I am arguing that it's specific use here didn't actually serve the purpose of scumhunting, and instead narrowed the towns field of vision to a few very select people for no good reason at all.

It doesn't matter to me if elvis called it out because she was the "victim" of this, the fact that she recognized it and called it out in the first place makes me think she's more likely town than scum.

She also does in paragraph three what she's been recently pissy at me for: telling people she's been sincere. "I never said anything I didn't believe" is not a statement of any value according to elvis, because it's just brainwashing. Yet she uses it. That whole third paragraph is pretty defensive.

CTD, what do you think the purpose of elvis's italicized defensiveness above? What was she responding to, if anything, and why do you think it was protown for her to do so?

I don't think you're making a valid comparison here. When I am attacked as town for seemingly no valid reason at all, I tend to have the instinct of defending my general playstyle as well. And defensiveness is not a scum-tell, fyi.

CTD, what do you think of DGB's no-busing hypothesis that leaves out the possibility elvis is town?

I don't think I understand this question.

CTD - Are you referring to my comment about CDB falling off the wagon or something else?

What I was referring to isn't really relevant to the question. but you happen to be correct. Read my analysis of CDB.

Actually, I want to hear MBL's thoughts on CDB as well.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hmm, this is going to come across as somewhat shocking, but after a reread I don't really find elvis all that scummy anymore.

And this doesn't surprise me at all. Maybe you can answer some of the questions you asked me in regards to elvis now as well, should be fun.

In unrelated news:

chamber
Elias_the_thief
Ether
Patrick
Pablito
ChannelDelibird

All of the above suck balls. Get your lazy asses in here, for god's sake.

[CrashTextDummie]

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

Are you actually suspicious of me? Cause if your only reaction to me trying to get shit done in a town stricken by apathy is "LEADING TEH TOWN IS SCUMMEH", you better be.

You've also chosen to ignore a number if important questions, which means people should start piling their votes on you. It's about time we do something productive.

Also can't wait to find out who Patrick's new top suspect is going to be.

[CrashTextDummie]

Way to overreact, I simply said there's no way to clear someone by their amount of activity. Do you really have an issue with that?

Yes, I do really have an issue with that. The only purposes I can see your statement having if it's not rooted in a genuine suspicion is painting my contributions in a bad light for no reason at all or discouraging people from taking the initiative in general, and both are scummy.

I wouldn't have as big of an issue with that if you had presented other reasons to find me suspicious, even though it would still be a highly fallacious statement. The game was dead when I replaced in, and trying to change that is pro-town no matter how you slice it. Or do you think my spur of contribution has been a detriment to the town?

Since you didn't give an affirmative on the latter, I have no problem assuming it was the former, which makes my vote on you a happy one.

I also could not sleep last night or today and so I could be misreading it in context but just saying. Today was supposed to be a general-purpose catching up today but I've spent most of it in what's best described as a physical shutdown. Sorry. I'll aim for Sunday/Monday to deliver an analysis on the e_k bandwagon and validity of arguments used, though if someone wants to take an independent crack at it in the meantime please do, my schedule sucks right now and will be that way for the foreseeable future.

I did sleep some last night but I've got pretty bad nausea today and this bright computer screen isn't helping any so I'll try it again later.

The questions I wanted answered from you are as follows:

1. What scummy actions are you accusing Elias_the_thief of to justify your vote on him?
2. Are you suspicious of anyone at all, and if so, who?
3. What scumhunting have you actually done as you claim?

At least one of these questions was asked in my original analysis of you, and you had a sizeable post in the mean time. And at least two of those questions shouldn't require you to catch up to answer.

Hope your nausea gets better.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hey CDB, having a good time playing Marathon games? Just wondering if you've asked for replacement yet, or if you're still actually playing this game.

[CrashTextDummie]

Ether may answer the same question. Maybe others, I'm too lazy to check.

[CrashTextDummie]

How do you feel about lynching bluesould, elvis?

[CrashTextDummie]

You are a disgrace to this game and Mafiascum as a whole, Elias.

Get yourself replaced or die in a fire.

I've had a long rant typed up, but decided not to post it. This is pissing me off to no end.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi, this is my daily post.

I was gonna do some further analyzing, but every time I think of this game, I am filled with seething rage.

If anyone has anything particular they want me to talk about, let me know. Otherwise, I'm gonna wait until people are either replaced or start contributing.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm neither feigning nor scum.

Thank you for playing.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, you've been in this game for only a short while and you're burning out. To me, this almost seems like it could be somewhat of an act, but it does sound genuine because of your earlier efforts. Is this game at an impasse and if so who are the people that are not advocating their strong suspicions at this point. I think some individual's suspicions are clearly out there but they may not be pushing their agenda full force, who do you see these people as? And if you ever get a chance, what did you think of bird1111?

I am not burned out, I'm still motivated to get this game rolling. The game is at an impasse because too many people aren't posting, and some of the people who are posting are doing so with minimal effort. I've put a lot of material on the table, and I didn't get enough of a reaction to work with. This is mainly because people are unwilling to put their votes to use to get people talking. So I'm resorting to nagging people into answering. Elvis has stated that she thinks there's some merrit to my Bluesoul case and that she will reread, something she apparently hasn't done yet. Consequently, she is not voting Bluesoul. DGB was estatic to see someone else voice suspicion on Bluesoul, and yet she's not voting him. So obviously he doesn't feel a pressing need to answer my questions (apart from his health and connection problems).

I don't see the point of voting people who should be replaced at this point. Unless there's enough momentum to get them lynched, you're not getting anything of value out of it. And I personally am not interested in a pure lurker lynch unless we're under deadline. I've made it clear that I think what little CDB did was scummy, but it's not enough to lynch him just based on that. The situation with Elias is similar, although he's technically not lurking right now. Wether you think he's scum or wether you think he's town, voting him obviously doesn't have the effect of getting him to contribute. And since I'm still leaning towards the latter, I won't advocate an annoyance lynch either. The game has been going for over two months and 33 pages, and to resort to lurker lynches at this point would just be admitting defeat to the asshats who are ruining this game with their indifference. So put your votes to use on those you

will

get content from.

Are there people who aren't advocating their suspicions full force? Spontaneously, I'm inclined to say that I'm the only one really pushing to get shit done at this point, but that may be a little conceited. At least people like Elvis, MBL, Pablito are on the map. I'm gonna reread some to give you a more accurate answer, although I'm not sure what the point is. In a game where over half the players are showing a decided lack of interest, I don't think your angle here is a valid measurement for scummyness.

Having said that, I'm gonna dish out a

FoS: HackerHuck

. You're evidently around, and yet you too are ignoring my repeated request for an answer.

And since I missed it earlier, here's another request Bluesoul ignored, which he should make good on whenever his power is back:

Please provide instances of protown moments for DGB.

[CrashTextDummie]

Having said that, I'm gonna dish out a

FoS: HackerHuck

. You're evidently around, and yet you too are ignoring my repeated request for an answer.

Stop making hay. I don't really see a repeated request for an answer. When I reread your posts, here's what I see:

What about this one:

And I actually still want to know how my predecessors ended up on your top 3, because your comments on them have been sparse in relation to other people you suspect.

Was that question confusing for you also? I get incredibly annoyed when people don't answer direct questions. I find it rude at best and scummy at worst (in the case where people are avoiding because they're afraid of giving an incriminating answer). When half the people aren't posting, and

the other half

ignores questions, I get doubly annoyed. So excuse me for being snippy.

I guess I still don't see what the glaring inconsistency is either. That's more what I was asking in my response to you. I would actually consider that relevant.

It should have been obvious from my analysis of CDB what

I

meant by "glaring inconsistency". The fact that this wasn't clear to you tells me that you were too lazy to reread, which again is annoying. You say you didn't consider it as such, which is fair enough, if a little baffling. It's true that being swayed by DGB's case wasn't that problematic (even though I still don't understand it). The problem is that he was willing to put someone at L-1 over it (and presumably was willing to lynch), and later dropped off the wagon because he wasn't sure he was on it "for the right reasons" anymore.

That

is what I call being inconsistent.

And him dropping off the wagon is what

you

mentioned as being concerning about him as well. By the way you're downplaying my issues now, I have to assume you didn't find it concerning for the same reasons I did. In that case, I want to hear your reasons.

[quote="HackerHuck"You seem to be concerned by inconsistencies, which is reasonable, but I'm not seeing enough from CDB to push him past Elias - who I find to be just doing enough not to get replaced and to try and appear helpful. I figure if he's townie, he wouldn't go to all that effort to appear helpful and he would rather just get replaced. CDB's lack of effort is more laziness, which is a null-tell in my book.[/quote]

If you think Elias is trying to appear helpful, you must not be playing the same game as I am. I'm not agreeing with your analysis of him here at all, and it bothers me.

Another post in which I try to reason with Elias forthcoming.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm gonna try to be civil here.

Ok. Well here is my response to everything recently. MBL, you can call me a crybaby all you want, but in this game I am given a choice; I can choose to make an effort to reinstate myself in the game. The response to this was derision at my late arrival, criticism of my large posts as a whole without anything specific to defend, and I really dont think it's worth making an attempt at contributing to the game if my only contributions lead to nothing more than a digression from the current conversation to tut-tut and call me a disgrace to mafiascum.

Don't act like people weren't entitled to being annoyed with you. You were gone for a solid month at one point, and upon coming back stated upfront that you were bored with the game and lacked the motivation to get into it. Is it really that surprising to you that people were upset to the point of voting you over this?

You then promised an increased effort and started doing some analysis, yet some people were sceptical if this was an honest showing of you seeing the light, or you just throwing some shit together to lose the lurker stigma, which is

not

the heinous act you paint it to be. And instead of continuing playing, you threw a hissy fit and thus ended your "increased effort". You went AFK for a week and came back with a post that was simply offensive to me (who actually made an effort of reading you despite your complete no-show during large parts of the game), and everyone else who is taking this game seriously. And that's where you deserve being called a disgrace.

What do you think the point of these site-sanctioned invitationals is? To gather the biggest slackers of a given time period in order to create the most mediocre game possible as a demonstration of how lame this site is? I

wanted

to be in this game because I thought it was something special, and I wanted to contribute to that. Boy was I owned when I actually read the game. Why did

you

want to be in this game? Because you wanted your name attached to what could be perceived to be a list of the best players of 2005-2006? It certainly doesn't look like you actually wanted to play, and that makes everyone who nominated you look like an idiot. Is that your intention?

"Playing the game" includes trying to help your side win over the other. And that includes contributing to discussion, getting reads on people and scumhunting (or faking it if you are scum). You have done that for about a week, and you've been in this game for over two months. This game, like any other, has participation rules, and just because they're apparently not enforced, doesn't make it okay to ignore them. This doesn't just concern you, because others are guilty as well. But you're the most visible of them because you've been gone the longest without getting replaced. It is

not

unreasonable of us to expect you to make good on this fact by

actually

making an effort. One that lasts longer than a week. And it is

not

unreasonable of us to ask you to get the fuck out if you're unwilling to do that.

Those

are your two options, and nothing else.

At this point I've made the decision to essentially sit this day out. For one, it needs to end. And soon. 33 pages is more than enough for Day one, and plenty of info can be taken from what has occured today. So I'm adopting the DGB style of posting until day two. Anything of quality that I post today will only extend a stagnant and drawn out day one. Lynch me or dont. Since no one values what I say at all, I cant really say it would be a bad play to get rid of me. But seriously, end this day. But at the very least, stop being so ridiculously hypocritical about the evaluation of my play as compared to DGB's.

So that's the plan? We lynch you today, and then CDB tomorrow, and Ether the day after, and finally DGB to get rid of all the people who aren't playing (I am including DGB in this list because you've likened her play to yours, something I disagree with), and then we see if the game is over or not? Is that your idea of mafia?

I simply refuse to go into night without a replacemet for CDB and Ether. That is all.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm gonna answer some stuff that directly concerns me, other things (like MBLs recent proposal and analysis) will have to wait until tomorrow.

CTD - I'm a little annoyed with what I would consider an inconsistency of yours. You expect me to divine the intent of your posts, yet you also want me to explicitly state the intent of my posts.

The annoyance is mutual then, at least we have something in common. I didn't expect you to divine the intent of my posts, because I wasn't aware that there is anything to be confused about. And yes, I expect you to clarify certain statements if I feel they are subject to interpretation or (intentionally or unintentionally) vague. I have no problem explaining my posts, and I don't mind questions. So as long as you keep answering mine, I'll answer yours.

I think with CDB, we're just arguing semantics at this point. I don't see someone changin their mind as being inconsistent. That's rather odd. What you're trying to imply is that if I were to switch my vote now - remember I didn't put E_K at L-1, but I was perfectly willing to hammer - then I would be inconsistent for doing so. I don't really get where you're going with this line of questioning and I'm certainly not going to give you a reason to go after me if I decide to switch votes - which is now seeming more likely.

It's too bad CDB isn't around to actually defend himself, because it's perfectly possible that your read is correct and that he had legitimate reasons to leave a wagon he was previously prepared to see to the end. Changing your mind is not something I find inherently suspicious, it's all about the underlining motivation. And from what little CDB posted about the matter ("being on the wagon for the wrong reasons"), I can't see a pro-town motivation for the change of heart.

I'll reiterate my question though: If you didn't have a problem with that, why

did

you find him dropping off the wagon "concerning"?

As for your other question... I gave my reasons for putting your predecessor in my top three (four) and I'm not sure what you want me to expand upon - specifics might actually help in this case. I don't see how the quantity of my comments relates to the scumminess of the suspect.

Here is the sum total of your comments on my predecessors:

Out of the three - Elias, IH, and Sarcastro, I had a mildly scummy read from Sarcastro because he seemed to avoid any discussion around him and would reappear once the dust settled a little. I feel that townies who lurk are more likely to pop up when something about them has been said.

You had him in your toss-up group, "leaning scummy" following this.

Bird’s entry looks pretty solid to me. I got a little turned about at the end though – his wrap up didn’t seem to follow the rest of the post.[...]I usually find most players give me townie vibes when replacing in - I may have said that already - but I feel that Bird might be trying to be townie with his line of questioning in his recent posts.

You had Bird1111 in your top 3 after this (your second highest suspect, I am presuming from your wording of the list).

I note your choice of words: "mildy scummy", "pretty solid", "got a little turned", "might be trying to be townie". That all just sounds extremely soft to me.

Compare that to Patrick, who you said had "bothered [you] for much of the game". That sounds a lot more like actual suspicion. I note that you haven't really mentioned him since, and he didn't appear on aforementioned top 3. What changed your mind?

Compare that also to MBL. You said you found parts of his play "very scummy". Of course, your analysis was a lot more balanced than that, but my point is about the choice of words. Obviously you felt quite strongly about MBL, and not so much about Sarcastro/Bird 1111.

And then of course, there's this post, which might explain some of my concerns, but raises a different question:

I kind of see your point about Sarcastro. I didn't realise that I hadn't posted everything I had in my notes, because I referenced it a little bit indirectly. It goes back to his comment about Bluesoul somehow knowing the scum could/couldn't talk before the game started. He was very overdefencive about that, continuing on for way too long for a supposedly non-serious comment. Additionally, he seems to be pretty jokey throughout and is using that to back off of any of his more controversial comments when called on them.

So you

did

have further reasons to suspect Sarcastro, you just forgot to post them. Now this I just find odd. Usually, when I forget to post something from my notes, it's either stuff on people I'm generally not very interested in, or when I'm building an already extensive case and some stuff falls through the cracks. I certainly don't forget to state my reasons for someone being one of my top suspects, because I generally want to lynch, or at least pressure them.

For me, this is a further indication that you were not as suspicious of my predecessors as your Top 3 makes it seem. Wouldn't you have wanted to build a case? Wouldn't you have wanted to actually accuse him of the stuff you found suspicious about him? Alternatively, it could be an indication that you're generally not very suspicious of anyone, hence why I've asked the question in the first place. Hope I'm making myself clearer here, I wouldn't want to burden you with divining my posts again.

If you think Elias is trying to appear helpful, you must not be playing the same game as I am. I'm not agreeing with your analysis of him here at all, and it bothers me.

Please reread where I discuss Elias. My comments aren't specifically related to his recent outbursts, but back to where he threw together some analysis. However, even in your most recent post, you acknowledge that Elias was trying to be helpful and people were doubtful to whether it was just to lose the lurker stigma. I'll repeat my earlier comment that it seems like you're trying to make hay right now.

That's fair enough, re Elias trying to be helpful.

I would like to point out though that you seem to use the phrase "trying to be helpful" predominantly as something scum would do, and that I didn't use the phrase at all. So you reading this as us being in agreement is not accurate. Perhaps it wasn't obvious (I'm sensing a theme here), but my last post towards Elias did not take his alignment into account at all. I was appealing to his honor as a mafia player in general, and hence there was no judgment of his acts, merely an attempt to explain to him why he's being treated the way he is, because inexplicably, he doesn't seem to understand.

I've stated previously that I don't see particular reason to be suspicious of him, and you stated previously that you're "not certain whether he’s scum pretending to be helpful/present or whether he’s tired of getting called out and is just trying to do anything to get the pressure of himself". Apparently, you've made up your mind in the meantime, and I'm not entirely sure based on what. But perhaps this is another thing you can explain to me, while we're in the habit of explaining things to each other.

[CrashTextDummie]

I figured that in an invitational, we could be civil and actually put my mistakes behind us and focus on what I was putting into it. Sure, past lurking can be used against me in cases if you really think its that much of a tell, but to the point of completely ignoring what I have to say? Yes. That is surprising.

Do you think "completely ignoring what [you] have to say" is scummy, or just bad form? Do you think 5 people voting you (I think that was the peak of your wagon) equates to

everyone

completely ignoring what you have to say? Do you think your contributions were substancial enough to make good on your excessive lurking? Do you think 1 week of increased posting, which contained pbpas of 3 people and a whole lot of bickering was enough to convince people that you were really, truly back in the game?

I'll help you with the last question, the answer is "no".

Youre right that its not heinous to be skeptical, but again, it was more than skepticism. It was an outright refusal to look at what I had to say. Simply voting me and providing no reason as to why made it kind of difficult to find anything to say. If I post content, I get voted. Theres nothing to defend against, so I try to ask for reasons, I get voted for being annoying. That, I do consider fairly worthy of the response I put forth.

Did you get voted for posting content? The way I remember it, you were voted for being needlessly antagonistic (remember not posting your bluesoul pbpa because your own game was more important to you, you know, that kind of thing).

There was no way to continue playing. I simply got voted for my analysis and there was nothing to defend against. Any time I posted I was under attack and I didnt really feel it was worth it.

Because being under attack completely absolves you from having to contribute in any way at all. Getting attacked is a normal part of this game, for mafia and for town, and in the case of the latter, the attacks are never "just". If you felt you were attacked unfairly, you should have continued stating as much. And you should have continued analysing the game in order to help your side, as is your purpose in this game.

(side note: this will be my last post of this sort. I feel like I'm giving mafia 101 lessons here, and it's starting to seem silly considering the ramifications of this game)

Its not my fault if you found it offensive. For one, it actually did have a point, it wasnt just a useless post. I seriously wanted to point out how ridiculous the collapse of the DGB wagon was. My imitation of her posts was trying to illustrate how useless she's been since the collapse of the aforementioned wagon.

See, this is the kind of stuff that makes me not want to play with you anymore. It is absolutely not my fault that I found your post offensive, because it was clearly designed to be a slap in the face, i.e. offensive. If you have a point, make it a fucking point. If you seriously want to point something out, do it fucking seriously.

Seeing as no one values my cases and my vote was already on DGB, how else would you propose I promote a DGB lynch?

Uhh... find someone else to lynch? I currently want to lynch bluesoul, but I'm not getting much support, so I'm investigating other candidates. Is this concept that foreign to you? Of course, it would probably require you to actually play and read the game, something you don't find fashionable anymore.

You have to understand that I underestimated my summer obligation, and I apologized multiple times. It was unforeseeable how little I'd be able to post. Say whatever you want, but it wont change my mistakes. Nor will anything I say. Clearly no one is willing to put it behind them, so I dont have much of a choice except be a slacker.

I don't follow this logic at all. You know why it's such a huge fucking deal that you were gone for so long? Do you?

Any further comment on you being in this game at all despite your circumstances will have to wait for post-game, because they're of no relevance to the current situation.

At the point that the game is no longer fun, I dont see the point in "playing the game" in the manner that you seem to think is THE WAY to play the game.

Do you see the point in getting replaced at the point where the game is no longer fun? What you're doing is not a "different way" to play the game, you're not playing at all.

I'm coming back Day Two. I just dont see the point of throwing in my two cents today to snide remarks and disrespect.

Unless you get lynched today, as you so graciously suggested. You don't think your contributions are getting valued as you think they're supposed to be. They will be once your dead, to the point they're actually usable.

And let's be perfectly clear on this:
I want you out of this game unless you start behaving like an adult

today

. That won't change if you still happen to be alive tomorrow. By acting the way you are right now, you're tarnishing your reputation as a player and your standing in this game beyond repair.

That is all for today.

[CrashTextDummie]

HackerHuck:

I find your answers satisfying for the most part. Glad we're finally speaking the same language. Only one thing:

It's day one and putting together a top three was only done at MBL's request. That said, they are all people I wouldn't be opposed to lynching

Wouldn't be, or wouldn't have been? If the former, make a case. Analyze me.

Patrick:

Glad you're feeling better. LoS, please.

I'm having guests, so consider this my post of the day. Might be able to slip another in a bit later, but I doubt it.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi.

Waiting on replacements for CDB and Ether.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not sure how I feel about Patrick changing his (previously) quite strong opinion of two people (Pablito and Elvis) based on my initial analysis.

Not that I mind people agreeing with me, I'm just surprised he was swayed so easily.

Because he was a bit of a non-entity ever since I replaced and thus hasn't been in the thick of arguments, it's hard to tell whether this is him genuinly being "in tune" with me upon catching up (which would point to town), or him chumming up with me because he's recognized me as a strong pro-town force (which would point to scum).

Not sure how I feel about his vote either. Will reread him for previous DGB interactions and internal consistency in general.

[CrashTextDummie]

Seems a bit of a stretch to call my previous opinion of pablito a strong one since he was only like 4th or 5th on my list, and he's never been the easiest of players to read.

I was more talking about the change from your stance of "PJ never plays like that as town" and moderate bewilderment that I'd get a town read based on meta to "CTD probably knows what he's talking about".

I'm paraphrasing here.

[CrashTextDummie]

Pablito, this has nothing to do with narcissism, and I find the suggestion a little insulting. Patrick did reference my initial analysis specifically as part of his reason to re-evaluate you and Elvis:

Pablito has been seeming more protown to me - his stance on elvis really makes more sense to me than it did before. I'm going to give CTD's comment about PJ's meta some weight because I don't think he'd say it lightly and because I really doubt CTD would have entered the game and declared that if pablito was a scumbuddy of his, but he could still just be town and wrong.

Regarding elvis's wagon falling away, CTD's entry caused me to take another look at her, and I decided many of the cases of "lashing out" came at times which I didn't see as all that beneficial for scum.

It's not much more than a curiosity for me at this point, but one I thought worth pointing out for future reference.

If Patrick is town, then of course I'm not the only reason he changed his opinion (as should be obvious by the fact that he stated some other reasons as well in both cases), hence why I find your question a bit redundant. But I could see Patrick-scum using my entry into the game as an elegant out of the dying Elvis-wagon, and I could see Patrick-scum "adjust" his suspicions in general to get on my good side.

[CrashTextDummie]

Didn't have time to reread today. Still waiting on replacements.

[CrashTextDummie]

Because going into night with players unaccounted for is bad play. There's particularly little information on CDB (since his predecessor was also an epic slacker), and Ether has been gone for so long that there was a lot of stuff and people she didn't comment on. I particularly want those two (or whoever will replace them) to go on record about whoever we end up lynching, and since it currently doesn't look like we're lynching Elvis, both Ether and CDB (who concentrated mostly on her) are pretty much dark horses. And since we're looking at two people entering the game, I have hopes that replacements will instill new focus into the game, which it sorely needs.

Even more than that though, I am disatisfied with the modding of this game, and don't see why we

shouldn't

get replacements before going into night (or indeed haven't gotten them a week or so ago).

On top of that, I'm not particularly keen on our current lynch options (although I've become very tempted to vote Elias just to get him the fuck out of this game after his most recent posts), and I'm still waiting on answers from my top suspect.

Does that about cover your question?

[CrashTextDummie]

I reread Patrick, and I didn't really like what I saw.

He's certainly been consistent in his suspicion of DGB, but in restrospect, his detour onto the Elvis wagon seems somewhat off to me. Even as he was originally attacking DGB, he made a note that he didn't like the way or reason Elvis was attacking DGB, which on its own is fair enough. This was also part of the reason he switched to Elvis. Yet while he was on the Elvis wagon, he did a very similar thing casting doubt on HackerHuck's and CDB's reason for voting her, and it started smelling of a pattern to me. Preemtively casting a bad light on people on the same wagon as you smacks of preparing for the next day, and could indicate that Patrick was less interested in seeing his preferred lynch go through, and more interested in not looking bad (or as bad as others) when the lynch

did

go through.

So now he's gotten over his Elvis phase, and gone back to DGB. Consistent, as I said, but what else is there?

HackerHuck and Pablito he sees as borderline townish, Elvis doesn't seem scummy to him anymore, he's happy with me, and although it's been a while since he commented on MBL, he's always indicated a slight town read. Elias he's on the fence about, and he doesn't feel a bluesoul lynch. That leaves Chamber, who he's never really commented on and the two non-players.

He did mention that it's unusual for him to have so many people falling towards neutral or townie, and that he has fewer suspects. Few

er

? It looks to me like he has exactly

one

suspect, which doesn't seem natural after 35 pages of play any way I look at it. What's the matter, Pat?

[CrashTextDummie]

I stated what I saw. If I see an issue with someone's reasoning, I'll point it out even if they're voting the same person as me, since I could obviously be wrong with my vote or I could be correct and they might be bussing. I don't really see why once is quite acceptable but twice suddenly makes it a pattern. Is there some specific problem with the observations I made?

The fact that you've been on two of three major wagons and added "buts" to both make it a

possible

pattern. There's no specific problem with the observations you've made, apart from the fact that they were all quite vague ("something about Elvis'/HackerHuck's/CDB's vote rubs me the wrong way" - paraphrased). If I'm right with this train of thought, it would fit with trying to cast doubt on fellow waggoners, but not enough to actually derail the wagon.

Well, I did actually say I'm reading elias as slightly scummy, so not exactly one suspect, no. I don't especially like having few suspects, but it happens from time to time, and I'm not unduly worried unless I start reading everyone as town or if it goes on for a significant stretch of time. Actually I'm surprised you're jumping on it only a couple of days after it's happened.

When you start a paragraph on someone with "I've looked at X again, and I just don't know what to think", I'd call that being on the fence. But fair enough again, you did say you found him slightly scummy. Which I guess makes you a weak supporter of the third major wagon of the game (or at least you're not entirely opposed to it).

And I'm jumping on it now because I reread you now. I asked you for a LoS, and you basically responded by stating that you didn't have any, so I felt the need to reread you and I stated as much. Just because I didn't "jump on it" immediately doesn't mean I didn't have any issues with it, I just didn't feel like pointing it out before re-evaluating you in general.

I guess part of the reason why I find it problematic that you only have one true suspect is that you were one of the more avid defenders of drawing connections as a viable scum-hunting technique (you even cited an MD thread you started on the matter). I agree with you, and it surprises me that you wouldn't be using it when you're obviously missing a bunch of scum. I've always thought of the the two of us as having rather similar play-styles, and it would bother the heck out of me if I ever had as few suspects as you have in this game right now. Outdated meta? Perhaps. You just being somewhat lazy in your scum-hunting? Perhaps. You being scum? Possible.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'll refresh your memory on these. Elvis's was the vaguest, I just didn't especially like her reasons for joining the DBG wagon and wondered if her last post or two before voting were designed to trip DGB up. My issue with HackerHuck wasn't vague at all, I pretty clearly said that I didn't like his biggest reason for voting elvis, and that his change of stance from "elvis is unlikely scum" to elvis number 1 suspect seemed out of proportion to me. And my issue with CDB was that he seemed to defer responsibility to other elvis attackers when voting her. (I realise you've said you were only parahprasing, I typed this bit because I don't think you paraphrased me at all).

I read back again to check whether I was misrepresenting you here, and it seems that I was. I must have skimmed over your post 576, which contains your reasoning for the dislike of both HackerHuck's and CDB's votes. Mea culpa, it was late.

That's not what I meant. It's clear that I've had a good number of suspects for the vast majority of the game, usually like 3 or 4. That's why I find it odd that you're jumping me the minute I'm only down to 2, rather than seeing if it continues as a trend.

If that's not what you meant, why was your stated reason to be surprised that I was "jumping on it only a couple of days after it's happened"?

Either way, I still maintain that you were at 1 and a half at best at the time I "jumped" on you. And I still maintain that it's odd for you to get increasingly less suspicious of most players as the game went on without these suspicions getting replaced by others as more information got available.

Sure, I could have waited to see if it continues as a trend, but that's not really what I care about. What I care about is that at this particular moment in time, the game is at an impasse and in desperate need of momentum, and you didn't seem interested in giving it that momentum.

Why is it that people are only considering DGB or Elias for a lynch right now? A number of people have expressed that they just want this day to end (chamber, Elias, DGB come to mind), but they don't seem to realize that it's not going to happen unless they

work

towards ending the day. The way things currently stands, this game is going nowhere. The fact that you didn't investigate any other people as possible suspects in your analysis indicates to me that you could be scum encouraging this stand-still, in hopes that the town would settle for a sub-optimal lynch out of boredom or annoyance.

This annoys me. I spent 3 hours on friday reading and expecting to make a post, but couldn't draw any conclusions I was particularly happy with. I spent a further 3 hours reading and compiling on saturday, and even then felt only ok about where I was. There're several people in this game who have been lazy, and I'm not one of them. So you can stop this right now. And yes, you could stop using outdated meta as well.

It wasn't my intent to annoy you or to insult your effort, and I appologize if it came over like that. The fact of the matter is that you only have 1 true suspect, and I'm pretty sure there's more scum than that. "Lazy" might have been a poor choice of words, does "unambitious" (is that even a word?) or "lack-luster" work better for you to describe your current state of scum-hunting?

Either way, your answer makes me feel better about you. I maintain that despite me missing your reasonings to be unhappy with the HackerHuck/CDB votes, it could have been a scum-pattern, but I don't find it as likely as I did yesterday.

I'm gonna reread MBL next. His last post rubs me the wrong way, and I've let him slide lately while I investigated other people.

[CrashTextDummie]

I seem to have trouble getting my points across, so I'm gonna try to explain myself better (and in more words).

You are suspicious of DGB, and less so of Elias. Assuming a 3-man scum-team, you're missing at least one. Do you think DGB and Elias are bussing each other? If no, you're missing another one. By "not looking into other possible suspects", I mean that you're seemingly not interested in digging deeper in an attempt to find out who you got wrong. Do you think the other scum is hiding among the inactives? Or chamber? Those are the only 3 people I believe you haven't mentioned in your latest analysis (or at least not in an analyzing capacity, you did adress Ether/CDB without passing judgment). The fact that you don't mention them tells me that you're not particularly interested in them.

And no, I don't think it's necessary to have at least 3 or more stated suspects at any given time. I don't even mind people pushing only one suspect. The reason I

do

mind in your case is that you eliminated everyone else from consideration in your latest analysis, which proves that there's clearly something wrong with the read you have on this game, and it doesn't seem to bother you. And it's a statement that you won't be supporting any other wagons in the near future.

The two people you are suspicious of happen to be the only two people that are anywhere close to being lynched right now. There has been little to no movement in either wagon, or in general, for a good while now. And people who try to get things moving elsewhere get little to no support. Hence, the game is at a stand-still. I think this benefits scum, and that's why I could see your play as a conscious scum-move to encourage this situation.

How do you think this day is going to end? Unless we get replacements that bring some serious life back into this game, I see either a no lynch by deadline, or people voting Elias or DGB out of annoyance or boredom as the most likely scenarios by far. I'm pretty sure Elias isn't scum, so lynching him would be bad for the town. I have to reread DGB, but she's certainly not the most likely scum candidate in my mind, so there's a decent chance that lynching her is bad for the town as well (alternatively if she's scum, I don't think scum would mind getting rid of her, thus wouldn't mind the current situation either way). I realize you disagree with this assessment, but this is the situation from my point of view. Do you understand now why I have a problem with the fact that you've narrowed your vision to those two people, and why I think you could be doing it out of a scummy motive?

[CrashTextDummie]

So the little spat you had with elias where he held his breath and pouted... that made you MORE sure elias isn't scum?

Yes, actually. I believe that his childish attitude is genuine, and I believe he'd try to tone it done as scum. He's clearly proud of his achievements as scum, and I don't think he'd sully that reputation by behaving like this. I do believe he's a bad enough player to take a piss on a game like that as town though, since he clearly doesn't give a crap about his reputation as a town player.

You claim to have done a reread of elias on September 25th and found him "not particularly pro-town" but "not a compelling case for him being scum".

I still don't find him particularly pro-town. As in I find his actions decidedly anti-town. And the only compelling case I see is for him being a piss-poor player who should get the fuck out of this game still.

CTD, Elias claims to have more Post-by-post analyses. Do you buy that? Did something in his posts since September 25th change your mind on him, or did you do yet another reread and decide he looked townish? If so, what did you spot? I personally smell a lie, and don't think elias has PBPs he's holding back on

I don't think he has more pbp analyses to post. I don't even see evidence that he's ever read the game in full. I think he is full of shit and that he should get himself replaced.

I've covered the other questions above.

If any other player is "pretty sure elias isn't scum" please stand up and cover CTD's back right now.
unvote, vote: CrashTextDummie

I don't need my back covered, thank you very much.

Would two scum be so blatant in their protection of one another? I find it difficult to believe scum-CTD would moor his boat to scum-elias this past month. More likely, he'd moor to town-elias in hopes of coming up roses if elias gets bagged.

This marks the second time you're trying to paint me as scum in case someone comes up town because I've defended them. Does this look more like a pattern to Patrick?

Why yes, he is ambivalent, and it's a scummy ambivalence, in my humble opinion. The impression I am getting is that he wouldn't have cared at all which wagon took of, but that he didn't think he could afford switching himself to help momentum because it was a pretty clear elvis vs. DGB situation and this move could have been perceived as a U-turn.

So you're saying that bluesoul is scum and DGB and elvis aren't? Or that both elvis and DGB are?

I noticed this on a previous read as well, and asked a similar question. CTD replied:

I find it distinctly possible that bluesoul was bussing/distancing from DGB, mostly because of the ease with which he let her slide off the radar, now that mostly everyone has lost interest in her.

This would make it a bluesoul-DGB-elvis scum trio, since you suspected that bluesoul was indifferent to which of the elvis-DGB wagons took off. Likelihood of that? If not, can you please reevaluate those three players based on that set of circumstances?

I don't have to reevaluate, clearing up your misconception will do. I suspected that bluesoul was indifferent to which wagon took off, because neither was bad for the scum cause. Not Elvis because I didn't (and still don't) believe she's scum, and not DGB, because she's either town or scum asking to be bussed.

I must say I am as puzzled as he is as to why he's pretty much being run up for shameful non-participation when he evidently put that phase behind him.

That's not why he was being run up.

He was being run up for his dreadful analyses of DGB and e_k, and the fact that he only analyzed those two because they were the "popular" choices. He found PJ/pablito scummy but never went back to analyze him at all, which was glaring.

I believe people ran elias up for nonparticipation

and left their votes on him for the poor quality of his posts. I assume they wanted to hear more from elias from which to base a decision, and all they got was a bluesoul PBPA and a bunch of whining.

All I have to say about the underlined part is: Bwuh? Where exactly are we disagreeing?

Without reading back, I'd say I made that post at a time where it wasn't clear Elias's efforts would only last a week, judging by my choice of words. I don't see what the deal is here at all.

Actually, I don't really get your case against me period, MBL. I've been opposed to the Elias wagon ever since I got into the game, and I have now re-inforced that position. The posts in which I tried to reason with him should be a clear indication that this is not a shocking change of mind. If I hadn't thought he was likely town, I wouldn't have bothered and just voted him instead just to give him the boot.

So is that it? I'm not impressed. I could vote you right back for assuming that chamber is town, but there's a more extensive case to make on you. I'll reread you in Face to Face to make sure I'm on the right track first though.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not much I have to say to Patricks last post. I've already said that his last answer has made me feel better about him, and arguing my points further would be running in circles.

I stand by my opinion that my accusations against him were valid, but he's provided reasonable explanations that work from a pro-town perspective. So I'm gonna let him slide for now.

[CrashTextDummie]

So what alternative tactics could one use to amass such a stellar record?

* Appeal to emotion
* Berate and browbeat your accusers into submission
* Continue to lurk shamelessly
* Refuse to contribute and prey on the town's goodwill

*Have good scum buddies to carry your load/play against shit towns?

My opinion of Elias is entirely based on this game, because I don't have any meta on him (as I mentioned, the one game we played I believe he was scum in was sullied by a huge mod-fuckup). So I'm very much looking forward to you investigating this matter.

[CrashTextDummie]

MBL's report on Elias is worrying. I'm gonna have to read through those games myself to check whether he's exaggerating. If his interpretation of Elias' scumplay is accurate, I might have to rethink my stance on him.

Bluesoul's timing is curious. He comes back right as his biggest aggressor comes under fire, and he doesn't adress any of the things I've brought up against him. Did you think I'd forget about you just because I have to do some defending of my own, Bluesoul?

Also interesting is that DGB is back at the top of his list, and Patrick earns some brownie points for pointing it out. Again, the timing is interesting: Interest in DGB is picking up again, and just like that, Bluesoul is back on board.

To summarize:

Me: Pablito, I'm not sure why you're clearing CTD as town just because he's active. Scum can be active too.
CTD: So you're calling me scum?
Me: No, I'm saying it's not enough to clear you.
CTD: Well you obviously don't want people to be active. I'm active and therefore protown.

I maintain that I wasn't hyper-reacting. Pro-activity is pro-town by definition. Good scum try to fake pro-activity to take advantage of this, in that you are correct. But just throwing out that "I might be trying to lead the town" doesn't serve any purpose other than to subtly discredit my efforts, as you didn't seem to have any indication that I actually was trying to lead the town. A lot of it also has to do with your choice of words in Post 792. Stuff like "just saying" and "bad logic" imply that is it ludicrous for Pablito to get a pro-town read off of my contributions. I find it amusing that you're now giving MBL pro-town points for the same kind of pro-activity:

Interesting, thanks for this. For what it's worth your contributions have been protown in my opinion. An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive is respectable.

No worries that he might be trying to lead the town, then? "An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive"... I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was doing.

Happy with my vote. Would appreciate more people on bluesoul.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's an issue of quality versus quantity. I am commending MBL for the quality of his posts, not the quantity. I maintain that the quantity of posts is not indicative of alignment.

You say that when MBL's post you quoted and specifically commended is exactly the type of post scum can whip up to appear active with absolutely no danger of giving themselves away at all.

So that's the kind of quality that indicates pro-townness to you? I haven't checked that post in all its detail, but note that it's inaccurate when it comes to the people I find townish at least. Wouldn't surprise me if it had other inaccuracies.

If there's other contributions of his you find specifically commendable, point them out. The implication you're making here is that MBL=quality, CTD=quantity, and if that's what you're saying, you're gonna have to substantiate it. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to assume you're using double-standards.

[CrashTextDummie]

If we're going to talk about double standards, how about calling me out for going after easy to attack players and then doing the same thing yourself in attacking Elias?

I'm pretty sure you are aware that the situations don't compare. I never voted Elias, and I never made a move to get him lynched (quite the contrary actually).

CTD, please point out the inaccuracies in my post. I did the best I could based on available information. The fact that I made the post should have no bearing on my alignment, and I'm surprised that's even an issue. It's just a tool to help get us to where we need to be. A few things, particularly the fact that 8/12 find DGB scummy, caught my eye.

You missed that I find Pablito pro-town also, even though you mention it in your next post. And I agree that this tells us nothing about your alignment, which was kind of my point.

[CrashTextDummie]

No time for rereading today. Consider this my check-in post.

[CrashTextDummie]

I tried to read some of Elias' games, but couldn't bring myself to do anything more than skim his posts. Was a bit annoyed that MBL took some liberties in quoting him, as it made it harder to find the stuff MBL was referencing, but from what I've gathered, it's all pretty accurate.

I'm inclined to stick to my read of Elias' play in this game. MBL may be right when he calls him a "clever monkey", which adds to my doubt that he would stoop as low as he has in this game as scum (the only game of his I saw where he was out of line was the first MBL listed, and the ad-homs seemed to be mutual). He seems to have the tools, and he's not using them here. Complete indifference and refusal to cooperate is not what I call "being weaselly".

MBL reread next. Also, looking forward to replacements.

[CrashTextDummie]

Complete indifference and refusal to cooperate is not what I call "being weaselly".

I'm only refusing to "cooperate" in order to end this goddamn day as we've been sitting here discussing for ages. At this point I'm even considering doing as MBL asked and trying to clarify my case on DGB with more specific quotes just so we can lynch her and end this. But I am far from indifferent. I will be back in full force day two, if I live to see it.

This was actually a quote from me, but I assume you just mistyped.

You've stated several times that you wouldn't mind getting lynched (you even encouraged it at some point). How is that not indifference?

But you're actually not the only one who's refusing to cooperate. Bluesoul downright refused to answer my legitimate concerns, and it irks me to no end that people just let him slide. How is that not scummy? Why aren't people voting him?

No time for my MBL reread yet. It's a busy week for me (I even missed posting once), and I apologize.

[CrashTextDummie]

The only way your lynch can be good for town is if you're scum. I was once in a game where one player was so scummy on Day 1, many people thought it might be good to lynch him even if he's town, including himself. And yet we didn't and managed a perfect game, lynching all 3 scum in succession. It also happened to be the mini with the longest Day 1 of its time (30 pages), which adds to why I don't get this "let's end the day already, it's pointless, yet I'm not making an effort" attitude so many people seem to have in this game. Pablito might remember that one, btw, he modded it.

If you're town, and you don't think getting lynched would be bad for the town, you must not care much for your win condition. Hence indifference.

Also, yay, now mod. Wonder when he'll show up and deliver us the replacement goods.

[CrashTextDummie]

I've revisited Face-to-Face mafia to reread MBL, mostly to refresh my memory on what made me correctly read him as scum in that game. Most of the things that made him stand out happened on D2 and following, and I have a feeling that I may not have the tools to read him with complete accuracy without the benefit of having a few people with confirmed alignments (i.e. corpses).

That doesn't change the fact that I find him suspicious in this game, and building a case against him is next on my agenda.

Looking forward to Lowell contributions, btw.

[CrashTextDummie]

CrashTextDummie, why are you voting bluesoul?

Because I think he's scum. Why are you not voting Bluesoul?

[CrashTextDummie]

Deadline is in 9 days. That's plenty of time to get a new wagon rolling.

Any particular reason you're deadline fear-mongering when you haven't even bothered to read the game yet?

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't support the elvis wagon, DGB or elias (or really bluesoul or Xyl after the last few pages) would be better options IMO.

Shockingly enough, I'm all for a bluesoul lynch.

People who have expressed that they are suspicious of Bluesoul, or a willingness to lynch him:
Elvis_knits
DGB
Patrick
Elias (? not sure if he actually ever committed to this without checking, but that's how I remember it)

People who have stated that they're willing to lynch anyone, or who advocated "mindless bandwagoning":
chamber
Xylthixlm

Why

is it that I'm the only one to ever vote this guy? It boggles my mind. Obviously, the sentiment is there to get something going on him, but seemingly no one wants to make the first move. Put your money where your mouths are and make it happen already.

[CrashTextDummie]

And for the most part, he's avoided being talked about critically today, which is no bueno.

Could you explain this, please? What have I done in order to avoid being talked about critically?

I'm not even sure what that means, really, so some clarification would be appreciated.

[CrashTextDummie]

You make it sound like this is something I actually have control over, MBL. I distinctly remember inviting HackerHuck to analyze me, and seeing as I haven't held my thoughts back in general, this is certainly not something I have encouraged.

Or is the "he's avoided" part (which implies that this is something I've worked towards) the one that constitutes crappy use of the English language?

Because 3 of the 4 are on the DGB wagon? You don't think that's a little telling?

Telling of what? I haven't put much thought into it. But since you seem to think it's telling of something, why don't you share your insight?

[CrashTextDummie]

DrippingGoofball

- She's the player who was most focused on, and it's kind of a pain because she's so tough to read. I wasn't impressed by her early game shenanigans (of particular note is her calling for more votes and wagons, while keeping her own vote close to the chest), I wasn't impressed by her implosion and baiting to be lynched, and I certainly wasn't impressed by her analysis, which was obvious BS. This is evidenced by the fact that she pretty much analyzed everyone under the pre-formed decision that e_k is scum, which just doesn't hold any ground as a serious approach. It's not at all surprising to me that she got a lot more offensive once she stopped being poked at. For any other player, this would be an open and shut case, but since it's DGB, I can't be sure. Still, that makes her a decent lynch in my opinion.

I have to reread DGB, but she's certainly not the most likely scum candidate in my mind, so there's a decent chance that lynching her is bad for the town as well

What happened here? Or are those weasel words on Oct. 8th and you never really changed your mind?

I went searching for CTD's thoughts on DGB because I recalled him being quite vocal on elias (and not thinking elias's scum). Sure enough, I found jack-shit DGB analysis from CTD, who is instead marching off into the wilderness attacking bluesoul.

CTD, I will reread your bluesoul case and bluesoul's posts, but the fact that you find our top two lynch candidates to both be likely town boggles me. What are your thoughts on DGB off the top of your head?

I don't think DGB is likely town. I said she's not the most likely scum, because I strongly feel that bluesoul is, and others rank higher on my list of suspicions as well (you, CDB replacement).

I didn't spend much time analyzing DGB, because I think it is a waste of time. I, for one, can't do it. I still don't think she is the best lynch, but it is one I can get behind if interest in bluesoul doesn't pick up. In that case, I'll move my vote to her to avoid a no-lynch.

I strongly object to your interpretation of my bluesoul campaign as "marching off into the wilderness". He is playing like scum, and plenty of other people have seen it, but for some reason, no one (until Lowell came in) was willing to actually substantiate this with a vote. It is not unreasonable of me to stick to a player I strongly suspect, even if that player is not the main focus of the town. I can list you a bunch of games where I've had to fight stubbornly to get scum lynched, because the town was chasing red herrings.

I don't understand your strident stance on bluesoul while you're ignoring DGB and clearing elias, which I think neatly summarizes why I find you suspicious right now.

And I hope I just neatly explained why I'm playing the way I am.

I invite everyone to read bluesoul's contributions over the last couple of pages, and to take note of what he comments on, and more importantly, what he doesn't comment on. I find it significant that he doesn't react at all when Patrick calls him on "evasiveness and sketchiness". Those are pretty serious accusations. Why doesn't bluesoul defend himself against this? Because Patrick isn't voting for him, and bluesoul wants to keep it that way. And because he

has

been sketchy and evasive. He outright refused to answer to legitimate concerns of mine, which to me suggests that he doesn't have any answers.

Look at the amount of of contribution he's provided this month. A series of posts on October 9th. A half-assed defense on October 17th, one which felt like pulling teeth to get out of him (he never explained what moments of DGB he found protown, and he hasn't to this day. This is a question I've asked him a long time ago). And then again a string of posts starting on October 21st (after Xyl replaced in). He is doing the absolute bare minimum, and while he claims to do so out of boredom, I strongly feel he's doing it for lurking purposes. He doesn't answer questions, or takes his sweet time coughing them up.

Stop letting this scumbag slide already.

[CrashTextDummie]

MBL, what happened to this?

elias or bluesoul.

Elvis, what happened to this?

I could go for DGB or bluesoul lynch.

You may perceive this as me hounding bluesoul, and maybe I am. But mostly, I just want to know what happened to make Elvis in particular drop bluesoul off the lynch-table.

I'll get to bluesoul's defense against me later when I have more time.

[CrashTextDummie]

To clarify:

MBL follows this statement:

There's probably scum in the rest of the pack (Patrick, Huck, Xyl, pablito) but I doubt we'll come close to figuring that out today.

immediately with a vote on Pablito.

That makes very little sense to me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not a big fan of this wagon (mostly because of the people who are on it), but let's see how it plays out.

I'm suddenly much less comfortable with Lowell's vote on me.

You were comfortable with it before?

[CrashTextDummie]

This looks a bit like deflection of a very serious accusation. CTD has spent a lot of time examining the other major candidates (elias, bluesoul, elvis) and none examining DGB. I understand the sentiment that one would find it difficult to analyze her play, but to some extent that's a cop out, AND you could at the least give your impressions of her softclaim. Have you even done that before? (Apologies for being lazy and not looking it up myself.)

I'm not sure I have either, but then again, I don't have much to say about it. I don't think it's very telling.

From my experience with DGB, she doesn't take kindly to pressure, whether she's scum or not. Her soft claim was poor play, and not one I find very surprising coming from her. I don't think it tells us anything about her alignment, or even about her role (it certainly doesn't influence me the same way it seems to do you, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't have a powerrole even if she's town).

My general opinion of DGB as a player is that she's a distraction. My natural instinct is to disregard players like her, at least on the first day, and to look for subtle scum who are trying to hide amidst the chaos she ensues. Hence I don't put much time into attempting to analyze her. But since her being a distraction doesn't have any influence on her alignment (or vice-versa), I'm not opposed to getting rid of her. It's just not something I put my focus on.

You've been going back and forth quite a lot on her, more than anyone else in the game it feels like to me, and I don't think that's any more productive than my approach.

I also don't get the sense that you really think I'm scum, considering you never delivered on your promised PBPA of me in time for it to have an effect on this day. If you're in danger of dying overnight, you'd really want to get that on record ASAP.

Several reasons for this:
1. Rereading you in Face to Face has made me doubt my ability to read you correctly on D1. While I am still suspicious of you, I am indeed not confident enough anymore that you are scum to really push it today.
2. I don't do PBPAs to get on record (actually, I don't do PBPAs at all, but that's beside the point). I make cases to get people lynched. I have stated numerous times that I am suspicious of you, and if I die overnight, I expect people who are interested in my insight to reread you anyway. Plus, it's not like I haven't put stuff I find suspicious about you on the table already.
3. The fact that a wagon on bluesoul never took off despite the fact that numerous people have agreed with me that he is scummy has put somewhat of a dent in my motivation to do a lot of leg-work at the end of this day. The town is too static in its suspicions (or rather, too narrow-minded in the people they are considering for lynch), or at least that's what I thought until a Lowell wagon sprung out of nothingness.
4. Put all of the above together, and I am somewhat resigned to the fact that the people I am most suspicious of are not getting lynched today.

The only two people voting Elvis are the two people I'm most suspicious of. Given that I find e_k town the evidence of an Ether/Lowell-DGB link increases (the first instance was Ether defending DGB by providing a safeclaim). Combined with CTD on me, a CTD-DGB-Lowell scumteam seems possible.

First of all, I don't see how two people voting for the same person represents evidence for a link. I find e_k town as well, and the fact that those two are sitting together on a dead wagon suggests to me that they're

not

scum together. Or at least that's not how I would expect scum to play.

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

Lowell: 5 (MrBuddyLee, Elias_the_thief, Xylthixlm, elvis_knits, bluesoul)

bluesoul: 3 (CrashTextDummie, Lowell, DrippingGoofball)

Elias_the_thief: 2 (chamber, pablito)
DrippingGoofball: 1 (Patrick)

Not Voting: 1 (HackerHuck)

And neither is this. Needless to say, I am not impressed by your suggested scum-team. Did this vote-count factor into your thoughts?

Another bluesoul post to follow later tonight.

PPE:

Everyone please post your current position on "Should DGB fullclaim?" and if you've changed your opinion since August (Patrick, pablito, chamber, bluesoul), please explain why.

Not unless she gets wagoned to L-1. If she gets wagoned to L-1, she absolutely should.

Also, I have to question your motivation to push for her to claim. When you brought it up in Post 996, it was accompanied by a vote on her, which was fair enough. However, you latest stance on DGB was as follows:

Little oddities have me thinking Lowell, elvis, DGB, Patrick, Huck, chamber are town.

Why do you want someone you don't think is scum to claim? You later stated that you "keep spotting things like this that make you look scummy in the face of your softclaim", but I don't see how a fullclaim would alleviate your doubts.

[CrashTextDummie]

This is not really about WIFOM as far as I can see, bluesoul, though you are of course correct that everything is possible, and one has to keep an open mind about these kinds of things.

What you are suggesting though is that none of the scum are busing DGB, and none of them are helping her out by pushing the rival wagon. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. It's usually in the best interest of scum to influence the lynch in some way.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's a natural one. Especially considering the kind of blanket statement you're using to lump us all together ("they're all off the main wagons, ergo they fit as a scum-team"). Besides, I have given my reasons for not being on one of the main wagons. Do you object to them?

And where does HackerHuck figure in this equation?

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm somewhat surprised the mafia apparently took out MBL, but I'm not surprised that he came up scum.

Going into night, I strongly suspected that DGB was bused, and was prepared to concentrate on people on her wagon to start the day. However, the fact that the mafia killed one of the wagoners indicates to me that there may very well be scum off the wagon as well.

Of the people who lynched DGB, I'm looking at bluesoul and Xylthixlm, who I was suspicious of yesterday, and still am today. Off the wagon, I want to reread Ether's interactions with DGB surrounding her softclaim and HackerHuck, because I completely lost track of him. Elvis also had a lot of interactions with DGB, so she's worth a reread as well.

Looks like there's a lot of ground to cover, so a full reread is probably in order.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also, I think general consensus was that MBL was town. I don't remember anyone attacking him that hard except me.

I thought he was scummy, and said as much on several occasions, for what it's worth.

I don't see the point in trying to analyze the MBL kill though. There's no way of knowing until the scum tells us in post-game, and trying to find scum this way is a waste of time. Still, I would like for bluesoul to elaborate on this:

Wow. I think MBL set himself up for failure a little too well there.

What exactly, in your estimation, did MBL do to set himself up for failure?

Lowell's claim is testable, and I am therefore inclined to believe it.

[CrashTextDummie]

Heya, sorry for the delay.

I've reread up to page 20, which includes the first DGB wagon.

My belief that Elvis isn't scum has been strongly reinforced. She had a ton of interactions with DGB (including heavy attacks going both ways), and they don't have a staged feel about them. Put my general read I originally had of Elvis on top of that, and she remains firmly off the table for me.

When it comes to the DGB wagon, I didn't get a strong feeling of anyone busing or defending her in a scummy matter. I particularly didn't get the impression that Patricks voting behavior when it comes to DGB was scummy. The confusion seemed honest to me. I maintain that PJ reads town to me, and I'm taking Ether (now Lowell) out of the equation based on the vig claim. That leaves bluesoul as the only player involved who could qualify as a busser. However, based on what's on display in his posts, I don't think a case for this can be made. This does not mean that I'm ruling it out (my previous suspicions of him play into this, no doubt), but if he

was

bussing, he was very subtle and natural about it.

Note that I don't give much credence to his claim that he doesn't bus out of principle. It doesn't seem to be a meta that can be sustained without turning into obvious-scum. And even if it was, I would assume he'd make exceptions for players like DGB, who's playstyle invites votes and D1 lynches (this is particularly true in case the scum got to talk pre-game). I did find it curious that bluesoul didn't mention his stance on bussing when DGB brought up the possibility that MBL and bluesoul could be bussing each other early in the game. And Post 276 looks bad in retrospect. Combine all of the above, and I still like bluesoul as scum as of this point in the reread, his seemingly solid involvement in the first DGB wagon notwithstanding.

The fact that I didn't spot any obvious shenanigans towards DGB made me look closer at people who

weren't

involved in her wagon, namely IH (now Xylthixlm), OGML (now HackerHuck) and Elias. What struck me about IH during this reread was that he didn't place a vote once, not even way back when he still seemed (somewhat) involved. He had two check-in posts during the period when DGB was run up/her soft-claim was discussed. If he did any kind of reading/keeping up, it wouldn't have taken him much time to comment on her. Hard to really judge him based on this, but from my own experience, I personally kept fairly up-to-date on games even during my flaking periods. It's possible that he didn't care at all anymore though, so it's not a very strong point against him, even if it would fit for scum. The fact that he never voted weighs more heavily against him.

OGML, on the other hand,

did

comment on DGB before getting replaced, and I don't like it at all.

How to say this.. I don't think a supersaint is likely, and if DGB is a supersaint then I would have expected her to actually claim so. This would allow the town to come to a group consensus on who should hammer.

If DGB is a supersaint/wants to claim supersaint, she should do it soon. I'm willing to be the hammer with or without her outright claiming to be a supersaint, because I think its already unlikely she's actually an ss (as I said earlier), and I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway.

Note that he doesn't state his opinion on whether he's actually suspicious of DGB (and for the record, he never did during his whole stint in the game). It strikes me as very odd that he seems to operate under the mindset that DGB is either Supersaint or scum, when the possibility of her being a SS was brought up by a third party (Ether) and never commented on by DGB herself. That DGB could be a different power role or simply a townie playing very weirdly doesn't seem to even cross his mind. And finally, he volunteers to hammer her to test her supposed supersainthood, which obviously wouldn't be a problem for him if he was scum. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on HackerHuck as I continue rereading, and am bumping him towards the top of my list for the time being.

Elias finally had just started to get into the game at this point, and since his lack of contribution during the first 20 pages was legitimized by mod confirmation of his absence, I'm not going to hold his involvement in the first DGB wagon, or lack thereof, against him.

Rest of reread to follow. I'll try to get into the one post per day groove again.

[CrashTextDummie]

I finished my reread.

I payed special attention to HackerHuck, because of that OGML post I quoted. However, there isn't a lot of material to work with, because HH played very much under the radar, only popping in from time to time to post a few observations. The only time he got really involved was when he himself was attacked (by me). I find that somewhat suspicious in itself. I took note of the way he handled DGB, and he defended her pretty consistently. Subtly at first (Post 551), and more openly in subsequent posts, where he repeatedly stated that he didn't think she was scum. He changed his tune ever so slightly once the deadline was close and she looked like a possible lynch (Post 1216) (which could indicate an attempt to marginalize his defense of her), but overall, he has been very consistent when it comes to DGB, which from my own pro-town PoV is hard to comprehend.

Of further note is the way he handled the early Elvis-wagon. He announced a willingness to hammer (Post 574), but seemed very adamant about not cutting the day short. Not inherently scummy, since it's in the best interest of the town to hear input from everyone, but could point to the kind of self-awareness scum tend to have. The possibility of the latter is greater in my opinion, because later in the day, HH himself questioned my position of not ending the day before we got replacements (Post 868). This indicates to me that HackerHuck wants to hear from everyone when not doing so could make him look bad, and otherwise doesn't really care about hearing from everyone.

Of the people who weren't on the DGB lynch, HackerHuck is far and away the most suspicious to me.

-------

When it comes to Bluesoul, my biggest gripe remains: his flip-flop on DGB, which he later denied ever happened. This was summed up well by MBL in Post 1056 and I am not satisfied by Bluesoul's answer/explanation:

I don't see the issue honestly, I'm acknowledging that she had protown moments as well as scummy moments, and at that point in time they were significant in that they were the first posts of hers that I read as having any townie points at all.

This is a subtle rewrite of his previous words. Earlier, he clearly stated that "her posts had been significantly less scummy", which is not the same as her posts being "significant in that they were the first posts [of her] that had any townie points at all".

In other words, she went from a 10 to a 8.5 or 9 then back to a 10. I never said I thought she was town, I said she was looking more protown than previously.

This just simply doesn't fit what he said earlier. Bluesoul is very adamant about being very conscious of his own words, so I find it unfathomable that this is just a misinterpretation of his earlier statements.

First of all, "8.5 or 9" is still very high. Why would he say she had "backed off [his] scumdar significantly" and that "he's not exonerating her entirely" (implying that he's exonerating her to some extent) if she was still pretty much as close to a 10 as it gets?

Secondly, he had his vote on Elias for a heck of a long time for

no

stated reason that actually implied he was suspicious of him. He certainly wasn't higher than "a 8.5 or 9" on bluesoul's list as far as I can see. While I don't condemn him for pursuing a different lynch because the wagon on his top wagon died off, I

do

find it very suspicious that he let his top suspect slide completely off the radar while pursuing a guy he didn't seem to be very suspicious of, only to later deny that he ever

did

let DGB slide off the radar.

And this is where the notion of busing comes into play. The way I see it, he needed a reason to abort his heavy bus (hence why he stated that her posts had become significantly less suspicious), and later when DGB became a potential lynch candidate again, he didn't want to be portrayed to have been actively defending her. This also ties in with the fact that he never explained which posts of her he found pro-town despite being asked

at least 4 times

by myself and Patrick.

Most of my other points I brought up against him previously (read my posts in isolation for details) still stand. The only point in his favor is the fact that his involvement in the early DGB wagon seemed natural and didn't reek of busing. It's not enough to convince me that I have him wrong. Still want him lynched.

-----

Looking back on CDB, I don't find his posts that bad anymore. That he leaned so heavily on DGBs weak case against Elvis would have been very brash if they were scum together, and in my experience, he plays closer to the chest as scum. I also find it possible that Patrick's interpretation of his Elvis-unvote, which I criticized heavily, is correct. These points do not convince me of his innocence, but they make me view his stint in the game in a better light.

Xylthixlm part of the role looks worse. I particularly disliked what essentially amounted to a quicklynch facilitated by him and DGB herself. Especially since he previously wrote:

Advance warning: I will consider anyone not voting one of the top three candidates at deadline to be voting "no lynch", and demand explanations accordingly.

Seeing as he hammered DGB at the first opportunity, it feels to me like he wasn't really interested in people taking a stand, as this quote implies.

I also noted that he didn't seem to be very pro-DGB-lynch until very late (he only announced a willingness to vote her immediately before he hammered). While he stated multiple times that he was suspicious of her, his vote went to Elvis, Elias, Lowell and Elias again instead in this order. I can see this as an attempt to find a wagon that sticks in an attempt to avoid a DGB-lynch.

I am not as suspicious of him as I am of HackerHuck and Bluesoul, but he's a solid 3rd place on my list. Wouldn't mind him dead either.

-----

Apart from those 3, there's no one I'm overly suspicious of. Elvis I think is town, and I'm leaning that way for Patrick and Pablito as well. Lowell is off the table per his claim (which he will need to prove). Elias I still don't feel too bad about, as his push against DGB seemed solid to me. Slightly concerning is his venture onto the Lowell wagon right after he abandoned DGB because Pablito made her "no longer [Elias'] priority". Speaking of the Lowell wagon: assuming his claim is the truth, I'd expect it to be ripe with scum. Xyl and Bluesoul were on it, along with Elvis, Elias and (non-mafiate) MBL. Makes me feel very confident that at least one out of Xyl/Bluesoul is scum.

Bluesoul, HackerHuck, Xylthixlm - those are the people I'm willing to lynch at this point, roughly in this order.

Vote: Bluesoul

Depending on HackerHuck's defense, I might switch my vote to him.

[CrashTextDummie]

Actually.

Unvote, Vote: HackerHuck

seems more promising, as I didn't like his entry into D2 either. The person he defended pretty much all day long (or for as long as he was in it anyway) just came up scum, and it doesn't seem to cause him to reevaluate his suspicions in any way, nor does it seem to surprise him. His real life reasons notwithstanding, I'm bothered by his apparent lack of care for what's going on (or, indeed, has gone on), particularly since we have dead scum to work with.

And since I forgot to put it into my post above:

Dear Elias_the_thief,

it is Day 2 now, and you are still alive. Would it be too much to ask you to share your thoughts on all the players remaining?

[CrashTextDummie]

My biggest point against you is not that you hammered scum, it's that you hammered her as soon as she invited you to despite previously stating that you want everyone to take a stand or else suffer scrutiny.

Also that prior to that, you seemed to want to wagon everyone

but

DGB (Elvis, Elias, Lowell), while still voicing suspicion of her.

Interesting that you saw me in possible scum-pairs though, as I don't think you ever stated being suspicious of me. Do elaborate.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm sorry but I don't think I need to keep justifying my actions on DGB when she turned up scum. If you really think I'm going to bus someone for three straight months with no pressure or provocation, vote me. I'm not going to take it very seriously, but knock yourself out. For what it's worth, if DGB's tone had stayed as protown as it was at the point that got me to saying as such, I'd have likely moved off of her altogether, or at least re-evaluated my position on her. But she didn't, it didn't last terribly long and I'm left with one point in time where I had doubts about her and the rest where I was suspicious.

You've justified plenty. It just doesn't convince me. The fact that you really, truly seem to think that the notion of you busing DGB is ludicrous is the only thing about your defense that makes me slightly doubtful.

The main problem I have is that you still haven't pointed out specific posts of DGB that you found pro-town. Without that, I am inclined to believe that you just made a blanket-statement you can't actually justify, and the fact that you have evaded this question for so long and so consistently strengthens this believe.

And that you are now calling them pro-town enough that if she had kept it up, you would have reconsidered her, is again, in my opinion, inconsistent with what you said in your response to MBL, that they were "significant only in that they had any pro-town merit at all" (paraphrased as I'm too tired to dig the exact quote out).

I voted elias mainly because, if I recall correctly, the DGB wagon had effectively stalled out at that point, and I even indicated as such to elias himself. What's wrong with making him think I was suspicious of him for a while? If I acted like I wasn't suspicious how likely is he to take my vote seriously?

Is this a hypothetical or are you finally confirming that you weren't actually suspicious of him? If the latter, excuse me for noting it and raising my eyebrow.

Not sure what to defend here. I wasn't really suspicious of DGB at first, but she wasn't playing as town the way I expect here to. I changed my mind when I saw the aggressiveness that I have come to expect from her. I also don't see how it's unreasonable for me to doubt my earlier opinion based on how she dealt with MBL. It certainly didn't make any sense to me then and it still seems pretty odd looking back at it again.

The fact that you defended her more than any other player in the game? I'd quote the post where you called me a bad scum-hunter, but since I think there's a very good chance of you being scum, it would be kind of moot.

I'm somewhat surprised that you're portraying yourself as being conflicted about her. It's true that you seemed less certain in your very first analysis of her, but that's also the one that contained the kind of subtle defense I tend to expect from scum:

I've had some concerns about her when reading this game. I'm actually used to a bit more aggressiveness from her - vote hopping and such - and her lackadaisical attitude was a bit distressing. The detailed analysis gave me a bit more comfort,

but I also feel that her usefulness on Day one might be limited since she seems to do better when she's had more to work with

.

i.e. not outright defending her actions, but rather excusing them due to circumstances ("she sucks at D1, let's give her a pass until she has stuff to work with").

From that point on, you seemed to be firmly in the pro-DGB camp, even at the end of the day, despite your alleged doubts.

These are two totally different scenarios. In the first case, we actually had replacements that had joined the game and I was waiting to here anything from them before I hammered. In your situation, there were no replacements and there was no indication from TSQ that he was going to get any. Additionally, I was probing your thought process, because I specifically wanted to see why you wanted to extend the day.

How exactly are they "totally different"? Did you want to give the replacements a chance to post out of common courtesy, because it's rude not to let them have their say? The point of giving replacements a chance to speak is to get them on record either to make them take stands as scum or to preserve their thoughts if they get nightkilled as town, and generally to get a read on them. How does it make any difference if there were already replacements as in your case, or if we were waiting on replacements as in my case (and it was obvious we needed them, whether TSQ was indicating getting any or not)?

As for my entry into D2, I don't get why you think I was ignoring DGB's alignment in my post. I specifically changed my thinking on Elvis based on that reason and I also felt that Pablito's idea about checking the first wagon makes good sense considering that it would have been very easy for scum to jump on that final wagon.

This is a matter of tone. I would have expected a different kind of post from a pro-town HackerHuck. Some kind of recognition that you were duped the day before. Did you not expect to get scrutinized for defending scum?

[CrashTextDummie]

Is it defence or was I just of the opinion she was town and made that point known? You were also the one that initially portrayed me as being conflicted - commenting on how I changed my tune when she looked like a possible lynch.

I commented that you changed your tune

ever so slightly

, and I commented that it felt like possible damage control in case she gets lynched after all (since she wasn't under heavy fire for most of the time you spent in the game). Since I am voting you and accusing you of being scum, I'm obviously arguing that what little conflict you showed in thread was manufactured to not make you look too bad if and when she comes up scum.

I would also characterise the underlined bit as not a defence, but rather a reason why I won't agree with her that much on day one. Her style is typically throwing a lot of crap at the wall on the first couple of days to see what sticks.

And this is exactly why I think this is potentially scummy. The

subtext

is "she sucks at D1, so don't pay attention to her".

Besides isn't it a little hypocritical to call me our for that?

My general opinion of DGB as a player is that she's a distraction. My natural instinct is to disregard players like her, at least on the first day, and to look for subtle scum who are trying to hide amidst the chaos she ensues.

Considering that's probably half of what you said about her the entire D1, I'm not sure how you can go around calling me scummy for actually taking a stand on her. I find your general avoidance of that discussion to be much scummier.

I did take a stand on her, and a pretty clear one at that. I stated all day long that I wouldn't mind her lynched and that I would vote for her if my top suspects didn't pick up interest. The only reason my vote wasn't on her at the end of the day is because she got lynched before the point where I felt I should move my vote to secure a lynch.

The main difference is that I was waiting for two people who were actually playing the game to make the posts that they had promised. Your request seemed much more like stalling, considering no one had requested replacement and the mod was not actively seeking replacements. Counting the time to find replacements and for them to read the thread, we're talking about a difference of many days. In addition, the purpose of that question was for me to get information about what

your

motivations were.

Yeah, look, the notion that I was stalling is entirely ridiculous. It was blatantly obvious that these people needed to be replaced, whether they requested it or not, and whether the mod seeked replacements or not. The mod himself got replaced and those people got replaced, which proves my point entirely.

If you are the same alignment as I am, you wouldn't

need

to get information about my motivations, because you would be sharing them. Ether and CDB hadn't posted in over two weeks (IIRC), hadn't commented on a lot that had happened, and in the case of CDB, hadn't commented much on anything at all. They needed to be replaced, and we needed to hear from their replacements, much as you wanted to hear from the replacements before dropping the hammer on Elvis.

The situations are entirely the same, and yet you didn't treat them the same when it wasn't your own image to the town that was on the line. Hence why I think that your hesitance to hammer Elvis was an act to keep up appearance rather than honest pro-town concern.

Why do you even bring up the "difference of many days" it would take to get replacements and bring them up to speed? The game was deadlocked at the time and nothing was going anywhere. The alternative to getting replacements and a deadline was many days of nothing happening and the game getting even deader that it already was.

You say now that you thought I was stalling, and that was certainly implied in your question, so for you to claim that it's purpose was mainly to get information that should have been obvious to you feels very disingenuous. Your whole defense against this point feels disingenuous.

My vote stays.

I'll look at bluesoul's list of pro-town DGB posts tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

Dear Xylthixlm:

If you're going to make a post like 1342, do it properly. Have you actually read the majority of my posts? I stated multiple times over the course of D1 that I was suspicious of MBL and you/your predecessors. At first I thought you took MBL out of anyone's list of suspicions deliberately because he's dead, but then you left in Pablito's stance on chamber.

Of course, "CTD: bluesoul. No other apparent suspicions." fits in neatly with your portrayal of my "laserlike focus on bluesoul". Surely that's not a coincidence? As it stands, your post is worthless.

I find CTD's laserlike focus on bluesoul late day 1 disconcerting, especially since the wagon was obviously not going anywhere.

The wagon reached 3 votes after a month of me arguing for it. 3 other people had previously stated that they were suspicious of him. I felt it was promising. But of course, you're the guy who started fear-mongering 9 days before deadline hit.

[CrashTextDummie]

What is the point of your list?

And if you think me clearly stating that I was suspicious of MBL in my second to last post of the day is a "minor jab", then obviously your list is crap.

[CrashTextDummie]

But your question raises another question: Do you have a problem with me scumhunting in general, or do you only have a problem with it when I find you scummy?

Why exactly does it raise this question? You say you check for people who are avoiding expressing concrete suspicions (presumably because you find it scummy), and then you omit the fact that I concretely told MBL that I am suspicious of him.

That's

what I have a problem with.

[CrashTextDummie]

The only time he (HH) got really involved was when he himself was attacked (by me). I find that somewhat suspicious in itself.

CTD, why is this suspicious? And how does that relate to how he's being run up and is still absent?

It's easier for scum to react than it is to proact. When a player puts effort into defending himself, but doesn't put much effort into anything else (like scumhunting), it indicates to me that they might be scum, hence why I find it scummy.

That is not to say that HackerHuck hasn't done any scumhunting at all, but rereading him, I definitely felt like he was much more involved when he had something to work with (my attack on him). This is not one of the big points I see against him though.

I would also like to see more votes on HackerHuck.

And I would like to hear what Elvis_Knits thinks about this wagon, since she posted since it formed and didn't comment on it at all.

[CrashTextDummie]

I am opposed to massclaim today. Yes, we do hold the advantage over scum at this point, and part of it is that we only have one claimed role in the open and only a vanilla townie dead. I don't see why we should change that. There's always the possibility that a massclaim could break the game, but that's not really something I'd want to rely on in a Minvitational.

In unrelated news, I am happy with my vote. That HackerHuck non-defense was entirely uninspiring.

[CrashTextDummie]

By the way, D2 has been going for almost 3 weeks, why are 4 people not voting?

[CrashTextDummie]

I agree with Patrick and am in favor of vigging Xylthixlm. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind Elias being vigged, since he continues being useless and his whole "leave me alone, I'll do more tomorrow" spiel he pulled yesterday turned out to be a load of crap. I still think he's more likely to be town than scum, but I would be the least surprised if I had him wrong. I'm not in a hurry to get rid of bluesoul anymore, in large parts due to his last post, which looked very solid to me.

And after seeing HH's latest post, I have no problem at all lynching him after he's had his say.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why would a vanilla claim make me want to unvote him? The fact that he barely defended himself at all makes me very confident that he is scum.

[CrashTextDummie]

How long are we gonna wait on HackerHuck?

[CrashTextDummie]

Must say I'm a bit shocked that HackerHuck came up town.

My instinct is to go back to Bluesoul, because his posts 1407 and 1413 seriously rub me the wrong way. Not because he cast the hammer vote (I have no problem with that at all), but because they don't seem to jive with the fairly damning case Bluesoul himself posted not long before. However, seeing as we're probably one mis-lynch away from lylo, I'm gonna re-evaluate everyone, including those I wasn't suspicious of before.

But before that, we might as well get the massclaim over with, because I agree that now is the time to do it. For the record, I think elvis_knits should go first. We can go popcorn style from there.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm a vanilla townie.

Bluesoul is next, unless you object to me picking twice (I didn't expect elvis to claim just on my request/without discussion).

[CrashTextDummie]

Xylthixlm's plan looks excellent to me. That should be another scum down, guaranteed, without the risk of a mislynch. Based on the respective claims, I expect Pablito to come up scum.

I'd have to reread to find a potential 3rd mafiate, but both Pablito and Patrick should have provided plenty of material in case they're scum.

As for the rest of the claims:
I'm sceptical about Bluesoul's claim. I don't give much weight to the fact that he didn't name-claim, as it could just be sloppiness (though if Pablito is scum, it could very well be scummy sloppiness). More problematic in my view is choice of targets. While his reasoning for targeting chamber sounds sensible to me, he didn't provide one for targeting Xylthixlm, and I'm interested in hearing it. He seemed pretty pro-Xylthixlm to (particularly at the end of D1).

Of the claimed newbies, I'd probably check Elias for potential bussing. Xylthixlm has been cleared by Bluesoul (and while I've seen GFs who don't show up as having a gun, I don't think that's standard) as well as Patricks result (which is less reliable, but still), and Elvis continues looking very solid to me.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also, Rosso joined 23 Apr 2006... all the player names in the game seem to be people to who joined previously to our group... previously to the 2005 people.

This is not accurate, by the way. Adel joined in May 2007.

On the whole, I don't think trying to metagame the mod when it comes to role-names is gonna help us.

[CrashTextDummie]

After preview: CTD, you think a setup with bluesoul as scum works from a balance perspective? I mean, I know people have different ideas about balance, but that seems really excessive.

I don't find it unreasonable. Tracker & Gunsmith seems like a very powerful combination of investigative roles to me. A set-up with an SK, a mafia group and a vig (and be it one-shot) is swingy by definition considering the crosskill potential, and giving the town 2 investigative roles would be problematic balance-wise as well, in my opinion.

It's possible that I'm just having trouble letting go of my one strong suspicion and admitting that my scumdar uniformly sucked in this game though, as is becoming apparent.

Also, you may be right, but you're also defending pablito-scum.

I've defended Pablito plenty throughout the game. I don't think I'm defending him now.

[CrashTextDummie]

If Pablito hammers himself and fails, I'm prepared to lynch Patrick. Being unable to hammer seems like a potentially debilitating "power" to give scum, as it robs them of the ability to quicklynch in certain scenarios. Patrick's argument to the contrary in his last two posts seems kind of sketchy to me, but it's understandable if he's town having to argue something he knows is correct. So I still expect Pablito to come up scum.

As far as investigations go, I'm not sure I see the point of coordinating them. The pros of keeping the scum guess outweigh whatever cons there are. I think that either myself or Elias should be investigated, as I don't see Elvis as scum (and apparently, I'm in the majority here), so this should end the game if it isn't already over after todays lynch, barring a gunless GF or bluesoul lying. And if either of those is the case, that's a problem coordination couldn't fix anyway.

Having said that, I'm pretty much done with today.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm somewhat surprised by that kill-choice.

But let's hear Patrick's result.

[CrashTextDummie]

vote: Elias

Enjoy, Xyl.

[CrashTextDummie]

Owned.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm not too happy with this game. Part of it is the huge amount of frustration the need for and lack of replacements brought on D1, part of it is the fact that I seriously sucked at catching scum. About the only positive thing I'm taking away from it (apart from the win - yay, go town!) is the fact that MBL is easy to read even as SK.

I'm not a fan of this set-up considering it was an invitational. MBL already brought up the problem of the SK (and I'd add the general potential for cross-kills considering 3 killing parties), but I also didn't like how the last two days came down to "follow the tracker/gunsmith". Sure, it took some luck and good play for the town to get into that position, but I would have preferred something that encouraged scum-hunting more.

The biggest problem was the amount of flakers and drop-outs. Elias and PJ (much as I <3 him) should not have been in the game, considering their real-life situations when it started. Too many others dropped out. This is something that needs to be seriously addressed if more Minvitationals are to be run.

I've enjoyed playing with Elvis, Bluesoul and Xyl for the first time, and of course it's always a pleasure to be in a game with the likes of Pablito, MBL and Patrick. Elias, however, is someone I will avoid in future games.

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes, and no. We may disagree about what constitutes a "weak investigation role". I don't consider tracker weak by any stretch of the imagination (although gunsmith qualifies in this case), and the combination led to a lot of information for the town. But it was probably harsh of me to attribute the anticlimatic finale solely to the set-up.