Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[Elias_the_thief]

Ok. Sorry but I am indeed working at a summer camp during the week, but I will try to keep up with the game on weekends and whenever else I might get a chance to. I'm reading the thread as we speak but it may take a while. Though only three pages long, there look to be several complex conversations worth keeping track of. So just hang tight guys.

[Elias_the_thief]

Sorry for the delay folks, but camp is pretty exhausting. Last week when I meant to reread and write my second post I ended up passing out. So here is my read up to about page 5. Sorry for the block o' text format.

The first post to catch my eye was 28 by bluesoul, in which he completely overreacted to a post which seemed pretty clearly to be a joke. The assumption of scumbuddies actually makes sense to me given that he was responding to a post assuming as much. But even if scum are among the non posters, and scum with MBL, wouldnt they already be very aware of the potential for that connection to be picked up? The post just seems silly to me. In 31 Sarc seems somewhat overly cold in correcting MBL's interpretation of bluesouls comment. Back and forth between PJ and Ether on topic of scumbuddy assumptions is quality, but perhaps too clean cut for my liking. In post 77 PJ vote DGB for her post 76 because she "butters up to three people in one post", and I agree with his vote completely. In 93 EK makes note of MBL's misunderstanding of Bluesouls 28, and that it seems kind of fishy and I have to agree. Post 118 by bluesoul is an entirely stupid attack in my opinion, which seems to stem mainly from the fact that he interpretted a different tone in MBLs post than what he ( think) meant. I think that the concept of those percentages being far from exact was pretty apparent in the initial post so I dislike all the attacks based on this school of thought.

No vote right now, I want to have a better grasp on the game before I make any decisions I could regret when I return to the game. Please comment and question my post, I will respond to everything next weekend, and I don't want my week long absenses to deter anyone from attacking me.

Top suspect:

Bluesoul for 28 and attacks on MBL in 118.

Runner Up:

DBG for post 76 brown-nosing.

[Elias_the_thief]

You're naming me a top suspect and you haven't made it past page 5? Hold off on that kind of stuff until you've made it to present. That was almost a week ago, it may surprise you but a lot has occured since then.

Um...I don't see why this is particularly concerning to you as its just that summation of my read to page five. At the end of page five, you were my top suspect. Why does it bother you that I posted as such?

[Elias_the_thief]

Uh, hi. I've returned from camp, and I am in the process of rereading, but you'll have to excuse me for at least a day. For one thing, this game is full of fun filled text walls that I have to sift through. On top of that, the level of discussion is above anything I've encountered in any of the games I've played in recently. So it might take me 1-2 days to be fully caught up. As it stands, I have a fairly solid understanding up until page 10. Hopefully I'll be completely with you by the end of this week. So, heres what I have:

On the MBL-Bluesoul % conv:

The whole thing was blown ridiculously out of proportion now that I've read it over a few times. Someone (DGB i believe) speculated that it might have been planned, which I think is fairly ridiculous too. That conversation really didnt change my outlook on a possible connection between the two of them at all. It seems kind of dumb as a bus and would be a pretty weak attempt at distancing. The only thing that I took from the whole thing with any relevance was that Bluesoul was trying harder than necessary to come off protown at the end of it, which gave me a slight scumvibe. Nothing too convincing though.

Um...that was really the biggest event in the game in the first ten pages, and theres not much else worth mentioning besides individual reads. So...

MBL:

came off really protown when explaining the whole percentages thing. Hes spent a lot of time in the spotlight and has seemed pretty consistent in all his points. Perhaps a bit lacking in the scumhunting department (though im not in a position to complain), but this can be explained by the large conversation with bluesoul, which occured more because of bluesoul than him.

Bluesoul:

As I said earlier, slight scum vibes from the tail end of the percentage conversation. Reading over the whole thing though, my earlier suspicion for the conversation itself really isnt too convincing. So only slight suspicion for bluesoul.

PJ:

Hard for me to get a read on thus far. Looks to be the prodding and questioning sort of playstyle. These always appear protown to me at first glance but in actuality I find they're a good way of avoiding real content and scumhunting (though PJ is no where near avoiding posting content ). As noted by MBL, PJ has been lacking in scumhunting slightly (though I have nothing to compare it to). The response seemed genuine however and he provided some solid reads and insight into his current position in the game, so a fairly solid protown feeling from him.

DGB:

so yeah, some really weird posts out of her thus far, and some out there attacks with an OMGUS kind of ring to them. Nothing solid, but not really liking her too much as of right now.

Sarcastro:

I feel protown about him, though there isnt really much of a reason as to why. He seemed unnecessarily cold in his attacks on bluesouls assumption of no pregame talk, but I have no idea whether this is characteristic of his playstyle or not.

Thats really all I have for now. Hopefully I can get started on 10-15 tonight or tomorrow. In conclusion, I'm the only one whos played with basically no one in this game.

[Elias_the_thief]

er, thanks i guess. you were being a touch unreasonable given that the reason I was employed was that another counseler couldnt pull through and I had to be added to staff last second. If id known of the conflict i wouldnt have been in this game. Im gonna reread the rest now (hopefully).

[Elias_the_thief]

STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS THOUGHTS UP TO PAGE 15:

chamber: jumps on MBL BLUESOUL connection and votes Bluesoul over MBL

PJ post 229 in response to patricks questions about reactions and dgbs attacks bothers me as it spends more time attacking patricks questions than just answering the questions. the post just reads as sort of evasive to me. I feel the same about 230, which seems to have more hypothetical fluff than useful content.

the "parroting" conversation is useless semantics. I doubt that patrick had any ulterior motives behind which term he used.

MBL 232 attacks my initial post becuase I make several points against several players but no vote. These were just very basic things I noted and I didnt consider anything there convincing enough for a vote. to understand my "regret" comment, take a look at the player lists from some of my recent games.

In his following post he makes some nice insights on OGML and chamber and especially on patrick. Patricks responses read to me as indignant town, especially when it comes to the snipping issue.

dgbs posts seem fairly useless and nonsensical. 263 is scummy as hell. asks for votes but finds no one scummy. very noncommittal. then 278 seems like a throwaway attempt to lose some pressure without addressing any points against her. it of course failed, but thats how i read it. 290 is an idiotic bash of pjs info gathering. oh yeah, cant forget the appeal to emotion near the bottom. It bothers me that PJ basically ignores this entire conversation though. He also posts a wall of text addressing basically everyone but DGB. Weird.

mbls vote for me in 271 is ridiculous given the discussion between DGB EK and patrick going on at the time.

At this point I'm thinking DGB scum, the refusal to claim and defeatist attitude basically sealed it for me. At the very least, a DGB lynch gives excellent alignment info. I'll once again refrain from voting until I've read through everything.

[Elias_the_thief]

Reading through 16-17. Might take a while to digest the sudden content filled posts from DGB and reevaluate my read.

[Elias_the_thief]

I did mention that was just a stream of consciousness post right? Just checking.

[Elias_the_thief]

basically caught up, analysis post will come in a day or two as I try to refine reads. My question: why are we disregarding the scummy moves that DGB has taken just because she stoppedbeing emo and posted some analysis? Does that erase all of her scummy posts? Just curious as to where all the leniency towards her is coming from, and why.

[Elias_the_thief]

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time. That being said, school is about to start but I will be making an increased effort in this coming week. My first task will be trying to decide on someone to vote as I have yet to do so throughout this entire game. So I'll be looking at the two main candidates, first through DGBs case against Elvis (i ignored a good deal of the connection speculation). I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

Elvis:

Ether picks up on elvis' stiffling discussion by dismissing's MBL 'first content in the game.' Elvis immediately agreed that the criticism was correct.

Very, very early in the game, in post #41 to be exact, elvis imediately puts bluesoul on the defensive by asking if he thinks MBL is scum. It feels like a trap, because being this early, there's not much that bluesoul can answer that couldn't be misinterpreted as scummy. I note that he made a wishy washy answer and ducked successfully.

This isnt really very condemning in my opinion.

Again prematurely, there's this very scummy post:

Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.

It's scummy because she's using MBL's argument/attack to herself attack Patrick while looking like she's supporting MBL, without having to make the argument herself, and being protected against a counter-attack from Patrick because heck, it's MBL's argument, not hers. This small little sentence is manipulative on a great many levels. It smacks of scum. Now let's see who pickedk it up and who let it slide.

Patrick didn't put up with it and voted elvis in the next post. Elvis responded in what I believe to be an indignant tone: "And that makes you want to vote me?" So here I have to consider the possibility of distancing. Interestingly, Patrick's take on elvis's post is a bit like mine: "Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit." Indeed, I agree.

This isnt particularly convincing either. Its possible that she posted that with your manipulative intentions in mind, but its just as likely that she saw something unaddressed and decided to bring it to the forefront in order to start up conversation.

Elvis' next move consists in voting for me for "buttering up three people in a single post" - a quote by PJ. So once again, elvis shields herself from attack, counter-attack and criticism by hiding behind another player's action.

I dont think that agreeing with a point is necessarily shielding yourself. The way you word this is pretty negative, and you sound very final in your conclusion. I find that more scummy then the post in question.

Once again, Patrick call out elvis, pointing out that she's not commenting on players' alignment (though I will add that she herself demanded it of others), and that she hangs on to details that are not relevant, and she recognizes are not relevant.

Well I cant really agree with the first point unless I'm calling myself scummy, so I will say that it is not necessarily a scumtell, though worth noting that she hadnt been taking any sides.

Finally in this post she relents and answers some of Patrick's questions. I can't put my finger on why, but the whole post reeks of post hoc. However she puts a lot of effort trying to ward off Patrick's attacks. This diminished the probability of bus'ing, in my book.

Also, she rails a lot against MBL, who I cautiously put on my town list in the game. I have to think about that. She wrote: "Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL." Then she unvotes me, and votes MBL. Hmmmmm...

bluesoul ignores the elvis issue, alons with Sarcastro, OGML and PJ previously, I'm adding him to the list. MBL FOS's elvis. I have to confess that I would have felt more comfortable if he'd voted elvis outright.

Ok. Nothing too amazing here.

Elvis responds to Ether's challenged with an other sneaky couter-attack in post 114 where she asks: "why do you still have a problem with the question I asked Patrick?" which is kinda worded like "when did you stop beating your wife?"

how so?

elvis's 153 is pure unadulterated squirming. Look at this wishy-washy, say-nothing sentence: "He had a point about me not being involved enough, so, yes, he could be scum, but not necessarily." Yep. Everyone could be scum, but not necessarily. What a way to plump up a post without saying a thing. She's answering to MBL, and this time she's serious with it, she doesn't seem to hid behind other players the way she started the game.

153 has one bad sentence. What relevance does the last part have other than reinforce the notion that she hadnt been "hiding" to begin with, and had simply agreed with one post, and wanted to resurface the other?

Later Patrick asks elvis what she thinks of PJ. She answers sitting on the fence. Recall that PJ studiously ignored elvis at every corner: "I don't have a problem with him. I haven't played with him in a long time, so there I'm not really going on meta at all. I just haven't read any of his posts and thought it was BS, or thought he was trying to be manipulative."

Eh...fence sitting is fairly scummy but I dont really see the connection as very convincing.

In this post, elvis is protecting PJ, while denying Patrick's accusation that they are connected. Meanwhile, PJ continues to either ignore elvis or give elvis a free pass like he's done all game.

I dont really see any "protection" going on here, only denial of the accusation. Not very scummy.

Elvis, who's willing to hammer a supposed supersaint, chickens out and votes Patrick, her dogged attacker. Later, she accuses MBL of derailing my bandwagon, something she just did herself! All the while crying to be the hammer. Hmmm.

Good point here.

So as I see it: Elvis has been noncommittal and hasnt scumhunted very much. Thats basically the same as me. DGB's case is far from convincing, and seems to be mostly speculation about connections (which really arent that useful when theyre made about at least 5 different players). I will further my old evaluation of DGB later this week. I'm sorry MBL, cant touch your questions yet.

[Elias_the_thief]

What do you think I'm attempting to do? I'm not going to cancel plans made in RL to post in this game but I did say I'm making an increased effort. I'll post again tomorrow.

[Elias_the_thief]

No Bluesoul, I dont expect that one post to give anyone a read. Thats why I said quite clearly that I was going to look at both wagons, look at cases, and place a vote. I also noted that I was sorry for my mistakes and would make an increased effort in the coming week. I'm sure you're very angry about me being gone the whole time, but the fact of the matter is I'm here now. By continuing to make a big deal about my late arrival, you're detracting from the game. Is it cool if I like try to play now or should I leave again? Just wondering what you really want. Heres my analysis of DGB.

Early Game:

throughout the entire early part of the game she seems to throw in these little bits of dry humor as if to disguise and inflate poor posts. 239 DGB expresses a high level of agreement with MBL's case on Patrick and ends it by questioning his lack of vote, while she doesnt vote either. 263 is scummy as hell as she asks for votes but finds no one scummy. very noncommittal. Not to mention that then 278 is a very poor softclaim that just comes off as weak and scummy. 290 attacks PJ's method of info gathering, which is a silly attack, because asking questions is the basis of PJ's play. she also appeals to emotion at the bottom. PJ basically ignores this entire conversation however, and posts a wall-o-text addressing basically everyone but DGB.

More recent stuff:

291 through 393 is just post after post of a disgraceful defeatist attitude. Then in 394 she mysteriously turns it around, as if kicked in the shins. I believe this turnaround is motivated by the realization that she may perhaps not be the day one lynch. This is something that would motivate scum a lot more than town IMO. If she were town, you'd think she would have been posting those PBP's a lot sooner. This is one of the main reasons I find her scummy.

Analysis posts:

395 mainly analizes possible connections to me and IH, which is fairly useless on Day One. Though this provides more solid opinions from her to help us get a read, it doesnt change my opinion of her at all. 399 and 401 are covered in my previous post. The case is unimpressive. 410 (analizing sarc) is a decent post, but it is never elaborated on, as DGB allows her game (from directly after all her analysis is complete) to be dominated by attacks on Elvis. 414 seems to paint OGML in a lurkerish light, though she claims it makes him scummy. I dunno, I just dont see it. Analysis about bluesoul in 418 is lacking. 427 for chamber is much the same.

Summary:

Early posts are very scummy. The small bits of humor seem to be placed in posts mainly to distract from issues at hand and inflate posts. As the game progressed DGB made some very scummy posts, softclaimed power role, and eventually went into complete defeatist mode. After the realization that lynch was not impending, she posted some analysis, but this was by no means good enough to detract from the scumminess of her earlier posts.

So I've compared the two scummier players out there, according to the town. Rest assured I will post analysis for other players, but I wanted to get these two out of the way first. To me its fairly clear that DGB is the scummier of the two and I'm fairly comfortable with my first vote of the game being

vote: DGB

.

[Elias_the_thief]

There's lots of language in there that is overly defensive and just so so wrong.

I'd love examples. As a sidenote, defensiveness is key part of my playstyle.

I wanna put even more pressure on Elias. "According to the town" - is much much different than saying "the two scummy players that everyone is analyzing" or "the two scummy players that people asked me to analyze".

I don't see why. I quite frequently use the phrase "according to the town" to describe things that all players seem to agree on, simply because its easier to type out than the second. If anything the second choice sounds as if I'm carefully choosing my words to appear as town as possible. This is something I dont do.

Elias almost sounds like he's saying that people are forcing him to pick one of the two, and then actually chooses. If Elias was truly genuine behind his vote he'd say "the two scummier players out there as how I said before".

The reason I address these two first is because they are currently the two most relevant wagons and by addressing them I get myself into the game faster as I can talk about the most important issues. Further, wording has very little to do with how genuine I am with my votes. As I said, I'm not very careful with my words.

[Elias_the_thief]

I dislike how he went and did a reread of dbg to analyze her, but just used dgbs analysis(which I think was Bologna anyway) to look into Elvis. That other post on dgb was also clearly done in an attacking mind set not and inquisitive one. Over all its clear he decided who he was voting before doing either post and was just supporting it in thread, which I don't particularly like.

If you recall, I had already found DGB the scummiest from the few previous posts I had. You might also remember that I expressed this in post 513 when I questioned the collapse of the wagon on her. So yes, I had to some extent made up my mind before those posts, but I'd never provided solid reasoning as to why. Thats what I did. As for the choice to use DGB's analysis, it was geared by MBL's questions of (essentially) "are DGB and elvis in your top 3, if not why not". I was looking at whether elvis was there, and why not. By defeating what appeared to be the most organized case against her, I figured I was doing a decent job of explaining why not. I can see why you find this scummy, but I dont mind too much. I'm far from done with getting caught up and my mind could change as I examine other players.

[Elias_the_thief]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

[Elias_the_thief]

Also

basically caught up, analysis post will come in a day or two as I try to refine reads.

I failed at posting the reads when I meant to, but its not like I'm completely clueless of whats happened thus far. My reads just arent where they should be, basically.

[Elias_the_thief]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

The problem here being that evaluating a case made on someone is different from evaluating that person.

True enough. If you'd like me to evaluate Elvis independantly, I'd be glad to do so.

[Elias_the_thief]

Well if we're not going to lynch elvis, might as well lynch her buddy:

unvote, vote: Elias

I love you. Thats why I'm voting you. I hope you understand.

[Elias_the_thief]

You somehow get frustrated enough by bluesoul's posts to actually vote, but when DGB asked you to vote (which is a request I did not agree with) you didn't. I think there's a little more behind it all, but it was the way you mentioned how you felt forced to vote.

Well first of all, I never mentioned that I felt forced to vote. I never felt that way, though you must have somehow got that vibe from how I presented my posts. I voted because I hadn't all game, essentially. I had felt that DGB was the scummiest for some time, and I feel that I'm more caught up now then I've ever been. Thus I voted.

If you were fine not voting all that time, I still question why then was good and I felt like you were really trying to help reignite the wagon on DGB (which in itself is fine), but it kinda distracted from momentum back toward elvis. That's why I found you defensive. Not sure it was the best term, but it definitely gave us information.

Do you mean that I detracted towards Elvis or away? I wouldnt say that either of those were my intention, though I would think that I attracted attention towards DGB away from Elvis. You can take this however you want. I was just presenting my opinions of what I perceived to be the "hot topics" of the game, and the case on Elvis seemed weak while my own points against DGB seemed strong.

Elias, if you say "according to the town" a lot, please give examples. It's a stupid phrase to have, honestly, if it is in your vocabulary. You almost sound as if you're putting yourself not in the town, which in itself is even worse.

It will take me a while to come up with examples, as I've never really thought about it, its just one of those things I say. Its possible that I may not find examples of it, I really dont pay THAT much attention to my phrasing.

I see why you mention those two people now. I thought that you had more to do with choosing why you analyzed those two. But I see now that it was on behalf of MBL's questions. Nonetheless, your reactions so far have not put me at ease.

Fair enough.

I am kinda drunk atm...but I don't see Elias answering MBL's questions and I just want to say that I hope that eventually he answers them. I know he's got other things on his mind, like defending some weak statements, but it's not something to put off forever just because you gave some posts with weak logic and ingenuine answers just recently.

I really dont think my logic has been that weak, actually, nor my answers ingenuine, but whatever. I assure you I will continue to post in this game. I've been posting one major analysis post a day, and I suppose tomorrow I'll do an independant PBP on Elvis as several players are clamouring for it. I'll get to MBL's questions, trust me.

Let's say DGB is scum. The only reason to rely exclusively on DGB's words about elvis is if you think there's no chance they're scumpartners, and you have a strong vibe that they're oppositely aligned. And I don't think that's even remotely the case. Elias definitely owes us an independent analysis of elvis.

The reason I relied exclusively on DGB's words was essentially laziness. I figured that by evaluating what appeared to be the driving case behind Elvis's wagon, I could easily see the main tells and controversial posts she'd put up. A 'strong vibe that they're oppositely aligned" is far from the case. I was simply cutting corners, and for that I apologize. I'll have an independant PBP of Elvis tomorrow.

[Elias_the_thief]

Post 238, 243 - Mini Normal 495. These arent examples of the EXACT phrase of "according to the town", but I mention the town as a seperate entity (similar to the way I use it in the phrase in question) despite being town in that game. This is really the best I can offer in one night but I'll look for better examples if you really want me to.

[Elias_the_thief]

PBPA on Elvis_Knits

(#'s in thread)
5: random vote.
15: Apparently E_K was trying to stifle conversation but I just dont see it.
26, 30: Make sense, basically the same feelings I had about the "discussion stifling" issue.
41: Inquiring about bluesouls post.
68: Bringing attention to a missed point.
70: inquiry about vote.
83: Agreement with PJ's attack on DGB. Maybe a bit too willing to agree, but this early in the game its a decent point to turn into an info garnering bandwagon. I dont think this is much of a tell.
84: Defense against attacks from Ether
86: defending vote on DGB
88: filler post
90: Not particularly useful attacks on MBL's opening post. Why attack this now?
91: Non-committal on bluesoul discussion
92: WIFOM against Sarc-Bluesoul connection.
93: Concludes with vote on MBL with little reasoning.
105: Valid questions to MBL about quote snipping.
108: Defense of DGB, weird.
114: Resurfacing old but relevant post.
153: I don't like that she ignores all of the posts in the last couple pages and goes all the way back to her conversation with MBL. She didnt even touch any other conversation.
155: Meh.
158: Inquiry about vote.
174: Joke. Ignores discussion.
216: Again, ignores the majority of discussion to comment on a rather small point (connection making not scummy)
218: Useless.
221: More on connections.
222: DGB was what made her talk.
225: Defending against pair accusation.
246: Defending assumption of attack.
250: Pointing out that others were playing on the sidelines too.
253: Dumb.
258: Joke, and dumb.
262, 265, 268: Incredibly hypocritical attacks.
283: Attacks softclaim.
284: Doesnt have a problem with PJ.
294: Repeats 283.
328: Setup speculation, though its justified in this scenario.
331: Makes it overly clear that she doesnt think PJ is town.
336: Dumb.
337: Unnecessarily angry with Patrick. Points made are vague.
340, 342: Dumb. infogarnering =/= creating a connection, necessarily.
352: Defending against MBL. Some good points, some bad points.
357: Inquiry.
372: Dumb, not necessarily scummy.
377: repost of opinion on connections.
379: Defense, and attack. Nothing stands out to me in this post besides useless bolding.
380: Inquiry.
387: Meh.
405: Good point about DGB analysis.
406: Also good points.
415: Decent post, except for the fact that she hasnt appeared to be doing any scumhunting the majority of the game.
416: Dumb question that ignores the majority of DGBs points
420: Decent point about connections.
421: Just comes off as pissed off.
425: decent inquiry.
435: pressing issue with MBL. see MBLs consequent post for my feelings on it.
437: More being pissed off and pressing quote snipping.
452, 453: Explains scumhunting technique. Fair enough.
456: Decent question.
465: Useless.
468: Good point about MBLs vote being dumb.
472 474: Good posts.
476: I agree with this sentiment (attacking DGBs return and acceptance)
485: Explaining self. Nothing pointing either way here.
491: More talk about connections. Lame.
497: Refusal to claim.
505: Attacking CDBs willingness to lynch. Good posting IMO.
506: Being a pretty poor sport here and posting the three worst things MBL has said while ignoring good things he's said.
508: Further inquiry for CDB. More good posting.
510: See above. Not as good posting though.
512: good point.
514: Agreeing with me. Cool.
539: Explanation of actions. I have no problem with this post.
540: Accusation on MBL. Meh.
549: Useless.
552: Fills in info for HH. Nothing wrong with this.
554: inquiry.
560, 562, 564, 566: Attacking double standard, good posts.
591: poorly reasoned vote for MBL.
634: Much better vote against CDB, well reasoned IMO. The change seems rather weird to me too.

Summary:

Certainly some bad posts in there. The main problem I have with her now that I've read over her posts myself is that she really seems to ignore a lot of major issues. Then, she picks up on something small, and makes a large post about it. I guess this is essentially lurking in plain site. In addition, she was pretty noncommittal early in the game. However, once attention was focused on her, she was forced to post about the meat of the game. Though shes had some bad posts late game, she has defended some of the major points against her well and overall improved the quality of her posting. I find her fairly scummy, but less so than DGB. As to whether she is in my top 3, its hard to say as I've only fully analized two players as thoroughly as I should.

Tomorrow I will try to look at Bluesoul, however it will be my first day of school and I might not have time to be quite as thorough as here. Once that is finished, I will move on to MBL.

[Elias_the_thief]

Not liking how Elias is only starting to post content now that he's getting called on it.

I've been getting called for it since like page ten actually. Read MBL's posts in isolation and you'll see that. I've just got around to motivating myself recently. So now, instead of commenting on when I got around to content, actually comment on the content itself please.

[Elias_the_thief]

I find CDB much scummier ATM. He replaced in and did a reread, finding DGB scummiest, and not really seeing a case on me, but when he saw that others were against me, he changed his tune. He even uses DGB's analysis (who he says he thought was scummy) as a map to see if I was scummy. It makes NO sense to use a scummy player's analysis to base your next suspicions on.

That's exactly what Elias did.

How come it's scummy when CDB does it, but not Elias?

Your case was bad. There were scummy things that Elvis did, but you picked up on few of them. Thats why I've "changed my tune".

[Elias_the_thief]

You don't have to like it, but don't automatically group me in with those that are on him for making a case from another player's content. I honestly don't find it as egregious a sin as people are making it out to be, but I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon which I'm still rather ambivalent on; something about how it's developed just feels odd.

I didn't at all make a case based on others content. I actually attacked the content on Elvis presented by DGB, and today I put up a completely seperate analysis. Out of curiousity, what makes me a better lynch than the e_k wagon? What about my play do you find scummy?

DGB: I realize that. But I'm just explaining my own turn around so people could decide whether they felt I did the same thing or.

[Elias_the_thief]

not.

[Elias_the_thief]

I find CDB much scummier ATM. He replaced in and did a reread, finding DGB scummiest, and not really seeing a case on me, but when he saw that others were against me, he changed his tune. He even uses DGB's analysis (who he says he thought was scummy) as a map to see if I was scummy. It makes NO sense to use a scummy player's analysis to base your next suspicions on.

That's exactly what Elias did.

How come it's scummy when CDB does it, but not Elias?

Elias didn't do the same thing. Elias read your case on me to find dirt on you; CDB read your case on me to find dirt on me.

I agree that's what elias did but its clearly not what he represented himself as intending to do. That's by far my biggest problem with him atm.

Thats because its not what I intended to do. I was honestly just cutting a corner in my evaluation of Elvis which obviously turned out to be a poor choice.

[Elias_the_thief]

Bluesoul PBP done up to page 15. It will be finished and posted tomorrow.

[Elias_the_thief]

Its totally my fault that I'm now the only one posting.

[Elias_the_thief]

I fail for another day. Signups for FFVII filled up faster than expected and I had to hurry up and finish role PMs (still doing it now).

[Elias_the_thief]

DGB, I'm still interested to know what really got you on the Elias train despite little to no mention of your suspicion on him earlier.

I still think elvis is the scummiest player, but the wagon was going nowhere. Elias needed to be pressured after lurking for so long. Did we have much reason to suspect Elias earlier on? He frekkin' wasn't posting AT ALL. I would still rather lynch elvis today, but Elias is a good second choice.

So...I'm the second choice for lynch based solely on the fact that I came back from lurking? I mean, lurking is a scumtell to some extent, and it certainly isnt believable when i say that I wasn't lurking as a scum strategy, but is it really enough to make me number 2? Also, you voted me AFTER I came back. If your reason was that I was lurking, why not get a wagon on me while I was gone? If you really believed I was lurking as scum strategy, you should have been pressuring me. This makes no sense.

[Elias_the_thief]

Also, FFVII mafia will be up and running after tonight, then I will have time to devote to finishing my Bluesoul read. Hang in there.

[Elias_the_thief]

So...I'm the second choice for lynch based solely on the fact that I came back from lurking? I mean, lurking is a scumtell to some extent, and it certainly isnt believable when i say that I wasn't lurking as a scum strategy, but is it really enough to make me number 2? Also, you voted me AFTER I came back. If your reason was that I was lurking, why not get a wagon on me while I was gone? If you really believed I was lurking as scum strategy, you should have been pressuring me. This makes no sense.

Plenty of reasons. A wagon on a totally unresponsive lurker like you were is a pointless waste of time. Now that you're back, after so much lurking, I want to welcome you with my vote. You've gotten a free ride so far, except for some lurker cries from several players, and your lurking history makes you more deserving of pressure to give us the chance of seeing your true colors. Sure, that can mean exaggerating the case on you; but if under pressure, you can satisfy me that you have a townie agenda, I'll be delighted to switch my vote.

Delivering on the promised analysis of bluesoul might help. Might.

When a list mod gives me mod powers and I get my OP up for FFVII, I'll deliver.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm away til Sunday.

[Elias_the_thief]

When a list mod gives me mod powers and I get my OP up for FFVII, I'll deliver.

You know, that's pretty fucking lame of you. Why are you holding this game hostage because you want to start another game? That's pathetic.

I'm "holding the game hostage"? Excuse me, last time I checked, every player in this game is free to scumhunt. Last time I checked, every player in this game is free to discuss. And last time I checked, every player in this game is free to vote. So dont tell me I'm holding the game hostage because I'm one of many people not posting frequently. I've been one of the most frequent posters in the last five pages, so dont tell me I'm holding the game hostage. Its not my responsibility alone to create discussion.

The OP for FFVII is up, and I will post my PBPA sometime today. But every time someone makes a post like this retarded BS it makes me less and less willing to do so.

[Elias_the_thief]

I agree with those saying that elias's posts did seem already geared towards his end result, which was voting DGB. Overall he made some ok points, some of which are issues I have with DGB, although the analysis seemed rather harsh. There's very little in elias's posting that gives me town vibes, and a few mild scummy things (lurking/noncommital for ages and then his approach to voting DGB). I would tolerate an elias lynch, but I think elvis or DGB would be better (and *possibly* HackerHuck or pablito although I keep changing my mind especially with pablito).

I wasn't noncommittal for ages. I've consistently named DGB my top suspect, except for my first major post in which it was bluesoul followed by DGB. Obviously my analysis looks geared towards attacking DGB. DGB was already my top suspect.

I'm typing up the analysis as you read this post.

[Elias_the_thief]

Bluesoul:

7: first post. nothing important
9: joke continuation.
28, 32, 36, 37: controversial "3 player" post. see post 480 for my opinion.
43: post from iphone. doesnt think mbl is scum.
45: defends against possible connection to sarc
50: Happy birthday, broheim.
55: joke response
64: further talk about "3 player"
67: ask for DGB post
94: see 64.
99: calls DGB on ad hom vote.
100: incorrect about DGB post
102: attacks math post
109: good post attacking DGB
116: inquiry post
118: continues inquiry.
121: good call on MBL's logic
129: Circularish discussion. Hard to follow.
130: dismisses point. possibly indicative that the argument was distancing, but nothing else supports the MBL-bluesoul link
133: response to PJ, attack DGB, response to sarc
135: see 130
137: analysis, nothing too noteworthy.
151: response to PJ and to some extent IH
167: disregards sarc vote
169: see 167
172: see 167
183: explains self
187: good attack on DGB list
192: inquiry
200: attacks my post.
201: attacks sarc question, avoids answering
210: silent onsarcs question
212: still no answer.
243: uselss post
272: against lurker lynch
276: draws connection early (dumb)
288: content in voting DGB
295: mirror EK on good question
311: wants to hurry day
312: asks for DGB claim
318: advocates lynch without a claim (in case of refusal)
320: already voting
321: see 318
365: comment on lurkers. Reinforce ether DGB link.
366: edit
369: comments on pablitos first post. explains and defends self.
370: apology
374: notes a weird point of pabs
383: attack on ether
388: talk about SS
390: moves to end day (i agree)
431: thinks MBL isnt completely townish
433: says DGB is still scummiest, notes speed of elvis wagon
525: nothing useful in this post.
526: promises to get caught up
529: tells DGB shes wrong
535: promises to catch up
537: defend 535
542: dismisses theory discussion
546: pissed off
558: explains self
570: good point against HH about his double standard
588: call for activity. worth noting that he hasnt said anything about the last couple pages, despite promising to get caught up.
612: bullshit vote against me. later explains it as starting discussion, but leaves his vote on me.
614: needless harassment
642: explains vote as conv starter and says it did its job. leaves vote.
682: retarded bull shit.

Basically reads as town to me. A lot of his posts have been taking other peoples posts and either agreeing or disagreeing. While this is obviously a large part of the game, theres a lot more of it then original scumhunting posts. The refusal to answer sarcs question definately bothers me, but I have no solid reason to write it off as scummy, so it remains just weird to me. Additionally, 642 reads as a weird post. He claims that his vote has already accomplished what he wanted it to, yet leaves it on. He gives no particular reason why he thinks I'm scummy, except maybe that I was a lurker during the early stages of the game, and there was a reason for that. Basically since he came back from his three page hiatus, he hasnt had any good posts besides his attack on HH's double standards. Still reads as town to me but I'm getting tired of him yelling at me for lack of posts when he hasnt been saying anything worth reading since 570, and before that since the 400's.

---

People voting me...why?

Bluesoul:

claims the vote was to start discussion, acknowledges that it did its job, leaves vote. Huh?

Pablito:

says my wording is wrong and scummy. I explain that its my style and that I use those phrases a lot, and dismiss a lot of his points. His rebuttal accepts most of my responses but leaves vote. again, huh?

DGB:

Gives no explanation other than that she believes I'm buddies to elvis. Scummy as hell.

MBL:

never fully explains. I would appreciate a definitive reason.

I would appreciate a definitive reason from EVERYONE. People are talking about how they'd be fine with my lynch, and I have yet to see anything over 2-3 sentences attacking me. I lurked much of the game: this was mostly due to camp. The lurking I did afterward was far from damning. My posts came across as if I'd already made up my mind; well no shit! I had, read my posts. When I said I was doing analysis of the two popular lynch targets, I never said that I was doing so to develop a raw read on them. In the case of DGB, I was further defining my suspicion. I cut corners on the Elvis analysis, who I in fact had no read on, but this is an instance of laziness, and I dont think thats particularly scummy. Further, were I scum, I could have easily lurked straight through to Day Two as basically no one was pressuring me. The fact that I'm even analizing players is a point in my favor which no recognizes. The random and almost completely unexplained wagon on me REALLY pisses me off.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias, right now you sound like scum pissed that our reasons aren't yet good enough to justify lynching you.

*shrug*
If you read any of my games, you'll find that I get angry on both sides of the game. Its really a null tell (for instance, read mini 495, 486 for town, newbie 499 for scum).

Further, were I scum, I could have easily lurked straight through to Day Two as basically no one was pressuring me. The fact that I'm even analizing players is a point in my favor which no recognizes.

Disagree, I think your failure to post was getting more attention. Lack of votes doesn't necessarily mean there was no pressure on you to produce the goods, and I don't think the fact you're analysing players makes you more likely to be town. I do agree that the wagon on you in overdone.

I'm slightly surprised you're reading bluesoul as town since your summary there was mostly critisism and you've read him as slightly scummy up until now. Anything in particular about him that reads as protown?

My early suspicion was based on the 3-player post discussion, which I rethought (i think i went over this in post 480). Most of the criticism is for small things. I noted that "taking other peoples posts and either agreeing or disagreeing" is a major part of the game. So, its not like I think he isnt scumhunting at all. Some of his posts had very good catches, and generally I find his agree/disagreements to be agreeing or disagreeing in a protown fashion, respectively.

[Elias_the_thief]

*shrug*
If you read any of my games, you'll find that I get angry on both sides of the game. Its really a null tell (for instance, read mini 495, 486 for town, newbie 499 for scum).

See, in my mind, a townie would say "I get angry as town." You keep pointing out how the scummy things you say could imply either.

So youre saying that I'm scum because I told the truth as opposed to concealing a crucial fact about my playstyle? Why would I do that, so that someone can later point out that I do this as scum too? You're ridiculous. And you have yet to explain in any detail why youre voting me.

[Elias_the_thief]

Unvote vote Elias

cause hes annoying me.

You see, since I'm not a complete asshole, I'll refrain from voting you for the same reason. When you have a five vote wagon with others threatening to jump on without any decent justification, and none of the current voters will explain their votes, then complain to me about annoying.

[Elias_the_thief]

You know what? I'm really not too far away from just saying fuck this game up the ass. Sure I lurked early game. It was impossible for me to get caught up on weekends given how much my job took out of me and the preparation I had to put in to be ready for the next week. It was a mistake to think I could remain in it, I noted this, and I fucking apologized. I come back, I try to post some analysis despite the fact that I'm adapting to a new school and playing two sports and in band and jazz ensemble and boys scouts while at the same trying to find a job, and all I get is bluesoul fucking yelling at me that its not good enough WHEN I QUITE CLEARLY PROMISED AN INCREASED EFFORT AND MORE POSTS. well just fucking FINE. then I get a wagon with basically no reasons provided for votes. FINE. I continue doing analysis, I try to reason with the people voting me, I try to find out why I'm being voted so I can defend myslef and participate, and all I get is more fucking votes. In my bluesoul post I give an official call for reasons and point out that no one has stated any reasons that stand up at all, and NO ONE agrees with me. NO ONE. This is fucking ridiculous! I'm I the only townie here? Is this game really just a practical joke? When I start to get pissed off MBL tells me it makes me seem scummy. FINE. I, being completely honest, tell him that its part of my playstyle, and that its not really scummy, in attempt to defend myself. What do i get for that? I get told that im scum BECAUSE I DIDNT FUCKING LIE. You guys are all acting like retards. I'm pretty sure I'm done with this game if someone doesnt tell me why the fuck theyre voting me and engage like I'm actually a player in this game. A vote because I'm annoying? I'm trying to get back into this game, I call for reasons for votes, and you vote me because I'm annoying? FUCK YOU chamber. This is ridiculous.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias,

Do you think that every player in every game should pitch a fit, take their ball and go home to mommy when they're L-3?

I dont care at all about being at L-3. What I care about it that no one has provided reasons for voting me that are over a sentence, and I am being considered for todays lynch. I am trying to defend myself, but there is nothing to defend from. Thats why I'm pissed. I wouldnt care if I got lynched. Its just pissing me off that I'm making a fairly large amount of effort and time out of RL to try to get back into this game, and I'm met by reasonless votes. Strong defense is a major part of my play; I love defending myself. Putting me in a situation where I'm supposed to just produce info while being voted without an opportunity to vote pisses me off. That last post let off some necessary steam...I had a fight with my parents earlier today and I guess that crossed over...I just want players to actually explain themselves and their votes. I think I had good points when I pointed out in my bluesoul pbp that no one had solid reasoning. yet no addresses it, i just get votes and an informative "youre scummy when youre angry". And how can you not admit that calling me scummy for not lying is retarded?

[Elias_the_thief]

The point I'm getting at is I feel as if I'm not being allowed to play this game, and not being recognized by the majority of the players in this game. Its hard to concentrate on scumhunting when no one will explain why I'm a candidate for lynch.

[Elias_the_thief]

I forgot chamber was playing... again!

So why is my wagon more popular than DGB's again?

[Elias_the_thief]

I found chambers lack of posting and content scummy at first, but after noting that people with better metas claimed he never posts much content, I checked other games and the point is really a null tell.

Sarcastro had an equal lack of posting, and content in his posts. His main contribution was the question to bluesoul, which was good, but generally nothing impressive. Then Bird comes in and really doesnt post much of worth either.

I dont really have strong reads on the other players.

[Elias_the_thief]

I think DGB is treating Elias appropriately and fully agree with 673.
I have quite a few problems with Elias right now. He’s basically giving the appearance of playing the game – I’m not opposed to keeping pressure on him for this reason.

How is this an attack? Are you saying I'm not actually playing?

I haven’t looked at his posts in isolation, but in reading contextually I find that a lot of his posts revolve around him and his lurking. He’s either explaining it away, or responding to questions about his lurking and availability.

Because that was the bulk of early attacks on me. Many of the players voting me had not explained why they were doing so until very recently, so I assumed it was the lurking issue and thus Ive directed much of my defense to that issue.

Of his few PbPs, they aren’t really as helpful as they appear. They show that he’s gone through and read the individual player’s posts, but it’s pretty light on analysis and conclusions.

True enough. I'm not a very strong scumhunter. If you want to read my other games, I'm actually very weak as a scumhunter. Maybe not very helpful, but this shouldnt be a scumtell given my playstyle. If I knew how to find scum, my town record wouldnt be below .500.

He basically admitted to having DGB as his prime suspect and not finding Elvis scummy, prior to even doing those analyses.

Why is this a scumtell? DGB was my prime suspect from earlier in the game. I had no strong read on Elvis. How is admitting this in the least bit scummy, and anything other than indicative of how out of the game I was?

He almost put more into his complaint about people voting for him than he did in his pbp on BlueSoul (post 688).

See my point about my scumhunting. It takes no skill to be pissed off, while it takes skill to come up with analysis. I'm much better as scum than town, that much is obvious. And I'm much better at expressing a natural emotion than interpretting posts.

I’m not certain whether he’s scum pretending to be helpful/present or whether he’s tired of getting called out and is just trying to do anything to get the pressure of himself.

The second one =/

I also find it odd that he focused his recent response to MBL on Chamber and Sarcastro and really tries to paint those two as being scummy for lack of posting and content :S

Um...paint them as scummy? EXTREMELY slanted word choice there. MBL explicitly asked me who else I found suspicious before I finished my PBP's. How is mentioning my two minor suspects in any way really trying to paint them as scummy? This is the most retarded attack on me to date.

Top 3
Elvis, Bird111 (mostly from Sarcastro's play), and Pablito or maybe Elias.

Your number two is sarcastro's replacement basically for the same reason that I have, sarcs scummy lurking. How can you possibly attack my reasons for suspecting sarbirdro? Inconsistent much?

This is from school, so I cant post much more. I'll respond to other attacks on me in a bit.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias,

It sounds like you're saying that you suck at town because you don't know how to scumhunt, and you excel at scum because you are good at expressing faux-indignance.

1) Do you usually get lynched or NKed or endgamed as town?
2) Are you typically more of a lurker as scum or town?
3) Do you traditionally bus your partners aggressively as scum?
4) Are you busing any of your scumpartners in this game, or are they playing well enough that you don't have to?
5) Are you typically somewhat indifferent as town, or do you give it your all?

These are all questions that dont have answers, as there are no typicals or usuals about my playstyle. Recently I've been NKed a lot more as town, but whether I get NKed or not depends on my town performance which varies. My lurking isnt based on alignment, its based on available times, number of games I'm in, and how interesting I find the game. Whether I bus aggressively or not depends on whether I think its advantageous or not, obviously. Sometimes I do and sometimes I dont. Anything else and I'd be a terrible player as scum. Question number 4 is so clever. I'm not bussing you because youre playing so damn good. Last question depends on whether I'm into the game or not. This game I really dont care about because every post I make is declared scummy by every single player, when only about 2 explain why.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias- how was my word choice extremely slanted? What are you suspicious of them for if it's not for them being scummy? You also seemed to miss the point of why I mentioned that. How is it that their lack of posting and content is any more or less scummy than yours?

I never claimed I was much better, though I did have an excuse for the first six-seven weeks. The wording was extremelt slanted because attempting to paint as scummy as a much more negative connotation then Elias calls so and so scummy.

[Elias_the_thief]

Am I dead yet?

(I'm trying out the DGB style of posting. It apparently gets you out of being lynched)

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm sorry if I'm not willing to contribute anything if its immediately criticized, disregarded, and counted as evidence against me. Tell me I'm a disgrace to this game when my posts are even evaluated.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm just curious as to why DGB isnt. Shes acted almost exactly the same as me this game.

[Elias_the_thief]

Ok. Well here is my response to everything recently. MBL, you can call me a crybaby all you want, but in this game I am given a choice; I can choose to make an effort to reinstate myself in the game. The response to this was derision at my late arrival, criticism of my large posts as a whole without anything specific to defend, and I really dont think it's worth making an attempt at contributing to the game if my only contributions lead to nothing more than a digression from the current conversation to tut-tut and call me a disgrace to mafiascum. Thats what the response to my posts has been every time. At this point its basically anti town to post anything in depth. Pablito, calling me a copycat of DGB is a gross misunderstanding of what I was doing. I wasn't attempting to emulate her play as my own with that post, I was making a point of the ridiculous level of hypocrisy between the response to her play and mine, when they were very much similar, and since she has had an equal lack of contribution for about an equal amount of time with no one paying the least bit attention. This leads me to my second choice in this game. I could play like DGB. Not actually posting anything useful anymore yet commenting from time to time anecdotally, popping in to agree with this or disagree with that but adding nothing original.

At this point I've made the decision to essentially sit this day out. For one, it needs to end. And soon. 33 pages is more than enough for Day one, and plenty of info can be taken from what has occured today. So I'm adopting the DGB style of posting until day two. Anything of quality that I post today will only extend a stagnant and drawn out day one. Lynch me or dont. Since no one values what I say at all, I cant really say it would be a bad play to get rid of me. But seriously, end this day. But at the very least, stop being so ridiculously hypocritical about the evaluation of my play as compared to DGB's.

[Elias_the_thief]

Don't act like people weren't entitled to being annoyed with you. You were gone for a solid month at one point, and upon coming back stated upfront that you were bored with the game and lacked the motivation to get into it. Is it really that surprising to you that people were upset to the point of voting you over this?

I never acted as if people weren't entitled to be pissed. I apologized profusely, on more than one occasion. Yes, I stated that I lacked motivation, but I also stated very clearly how I planned on increasing my effort over the next week to get back into it, to GIVE myself motivation. Its not surprising that people voted me for this, but I find it surprising that out of those two statements, everyone decided to focus on the first one and not my promises of content, despite my lack of motivation. And I hardly think there is a point where a good protown player should vote out of anger at another. I figured that in an invitational, we could be civil and actually put my mistakes behind us and focus on what I was putting into it. Sure, past lurking can be used against me in cases if you really think its that much of a tell, but to the point of completely ignoring what I have to say? Yes. That is surprising.

You then promised an increased effort and started doing some analysis, yet some people were sceptical if this was an honest showing of you seeing the light, or you just throwing some shit together to lose the lurker stigma, which is

not

the heinous act you paint it to be.

Youre right that its not heinous to be skeptical, but again, it was more than skepticism. It was an outright refusal to look at what I had to say. Simply voting me and providing no reason as to why made it kind of difficult to find anything to say. If I post content, I get voted. Theres nothing to defend against, so I try to ask for reasons, I get voted for being annoying. That, I do consider fairly worthy of the response I put forth.

And instead of continuing playing, you threw a hissy fit and thus ended your "increased effort".

There was no way to continue playing. I simply got voted for my analysis and there was nothing to defend against. Any time I posted I was under attack and I didnt really feel it was worth it.

You went AFK for a week and came back with a post that was simply offensive to me (who actually made an effort of reading you despite your complete no-show during large parts of the game), and everyone else who is taking this game seriously. And that's where you deserve being called a disgrace.

Its not my fault if you found it offensive. For one, it actually did have a point, it wasnt just a useless post. I seriously wanted to point out how ridiculous the collapse of the DGB wagon was. My imitation of her posts was trying to illustrate how useless she's been since the collapse of the aforementioned wagon. Seeing as no one values my cases and my vote was already on DGB, how else would you propose I promote a DGB lynch?

What do you think the point of these site-sanctioned invitationals is? To gather the biggest slackers of a given time period in order to create the most mediocre game possible as a demonstration of how lame this site is?

You have to understand that I underestimated my summer obligation, and I apologized multiple times. It was unforeseeable how little I'd be able to post. Say whatever you want, but it wont change my mistakes. Nor will anything I say. Clearly no one is willing to put it behind them, so I dont have much of a choice except be a slacker.

I

wanted

to be in this game because I thought it was something special, and I wanted to contribute to that. Boy was I owned when I actually read the game. Why did

you

want to be in this game?

See above. I wanted to be in it to give it my all, but when you come into it 20 pages in at the beginning of the school year its somewhat difficult. I was trying to get in it anyways but immediate derision discouraged me after the first week of trying.

"Playing the game" includes trying to help your side win over the other. And that includes contributing to discussion, getting reads on people and scumhunting (or faking it if you are scum). You have done that for about a week, and you've been in this game for over two months. This game, like any other, has participation rules, and just because they're apparently not enforced, doesn't make it okay to ignore them. This doesn't just concern you, because others are guilty as well. But you're the most visible of them because you've been gone the longest without getting replaced. It is

not

unreasonable of us to expect you to make good on this fact by

actually

making an effort. One that lasts longer than a week. And it is

not

unreasonable of us to ask you to get the fuck out if you're unwilling to do that.

Those

are your two options, and nothing else.

Certainly its not unreasonable. But it IS unreasonable to expect me to play a game in which my content is not evaluated but is instead immediately thrown out and made into the vague basis of a vote. At the point that the game is no longer fun, I dont see the point in "playing the game" in the manner that you seem to think is THE WAY to play the game.

At this point I've made the decision to essentially sit this day out. For one, it needs to end. And soon. 33 pages is more than enough for Day one, and plenty of info can be taken from what has occured today. So I'm adopting the DGB style of posting until day two. Anything of quality that I post today will only extend a stagnant and drawn out day one. Lynch me or dont. Since no one values what I say at all, I cant really say it would be a bad play to get rid of me. But seriously, end this day. But at the very least, stop being so ridiculously hypocritical about the evaluation of my play as compared to DGB's.

So that's the plan? We lynch you today, and then CDB tomorrow, and Ether the day after, and finally DGB to get rid of all the people who aren't playing (I am including DGB in this list because you've likened her play to yours, something I disagree with), and then we see if the game is over or not? Is that your idea of mafia?

I'm coming back Day Two. I just dont see the point of throwing in my two cents today to snide remarks and disrespect.

Certainly I earned some hazing and anger in response to my posts, but the response I have received has been way over the top. Theres no reason that my posts should have been recieved with that level of disregard. I'll come back day two and see if you guys feel like listening to my posts. Just answer me this: If my posts simply cause votes against me, why post them? If no one values my cases, why make them? It seems to me I'm better off just voting for who I find scummy in this game, and keeping my reasoining to myself. Did I ever say in my last post that I stopped reading the game? Or that I had no more cases I could be posting? No. I never said that. I have other things I could post. But theres no point.

[Elias_the_thief]

If you don't want to contribute and play, please ask for replacement.

I'm sure the mod can find someone who is willing to replace in and contribute. It's not like we're at the brink of a lynch.

We should end the day. I've made my lynch choice clear.

[Elias_the_thief]

I figured that in an invitational, we could be civil and actually put my mistakes behind us and focus on what I was putting into it. Sure, past lurking can be used against me in cases if you really think its that much of a tell, but to the point of completely ignoring what I have to say? Yes. That is surprising.

Do you think "completely ignoring what [you] have to say" is scummy, or just bad form? Do you think 5 people voting you (I think that was the peak of your wagon) equates to

everyone

completely ignoring what you have to say?

I'm actually pretty unsure how to answer the first question. Normally I'd say its scummy to just place a vote without any response to the post that HAD to have caused the vote. But when 5 people do it, its sort of difficult to call them all scum. The five people voting me isnt what equates to everyone completely ignoring me. What equates to completely ignoring me is that those 5 votes from the only five people that even acknowlegded the posts. The rest quite literally ignored them or basically said "oh Elias posted big deal".

Do you think your contributions were substancial enough to make good on your excessive lurking? Do you think 1 week of increased posting, which contained pbpas of 3 people and a whole lot of bickering was enough to convince people that you were really, truly back in the game?

I never claimed this. Not once. I hadnt even hoped as much at any point. It seems like youre not even reading what I'm saying. Do you really think I originally intended to post content for one week then go away? I had intended to continue straight through the player list until I had done every player. My problem is that I was voted immediately without acknowledgement of what was in those posts. I hadnt hoped to prove I was back in the game. I had hoped that I could at least convince people to give me a chance to post all I had before wagoning me. Clearly this was an unrealistic expectation. This led me to believe that I wasnt getting back in the game regardless, thus my effort was cut short. And you blame me for the bickering? Was I supposed to ignore the blatant reasonless bandwagon? Then I'd be called scummy for not defending myself. Either way I lose.

Youre right that its not heinous to be skeptical, but again, it was more than skepticism. It was an outright refusal to look at what I had to say. Simply voting me and providing no reason as to why made it kind of difficult to find anything to say. If I post content, I get voted. Theres nothing to defend against, so I try to ask for reasons, I get voted for being annoying. That, I do consider fairly worthy of the response I put forth.

Did you get voted for posting content? The way I remember it, you were voted for being needlessly antagonistic (remember not posting your bluesoul pbpa because your own game was more important to you, you know, that kind of thing).

Um...that was after I had been voted several times. I was voted almost directly after I posted my first PBP, or maybe my second. Also, I wasn't being antagonistic. I may have been a bit unfair, but antagonistic is just wrong. My game involved several noobies that would flake if I didn't start the game on time. Not to mention that 26 players are a little harder to ignore then the 7-8 that actually post in this game. Unfair yes. Antagonistic? No. Even if antagonistic is correct, thats a ridiculous reason to vote me.

There was no way to continue playing. I simply got voted for my analysis and there was nothing to defend against. Any time I posted I was under attack and I didnt really feel it was worth it.

Because being under attack completely absolves you from having to contribute in any way at all. Getting attacked is a normal part of this game, for mafia and for town, and in the case of the latter, the attacks are never "just". If you felt you were attacked unfairly, you should have continued stating as much. And you should have continued analysing the game in order to help your side, as is your purpose in this game.

I never said it "absolved me" but I appreciate the words you put in my mouth. Further, I DID continually state the attacks were unfair. Several times. Do you recall what happened? I got voted by chamber for being annoying. Thats what happens when I try to get something solid to defend against. And I HAVE been analizing the game. I said that in my last post. I have reads on other players. I'm not posting them if all theyre viewed as are halfassed attempts. They arent actually ever considered by any other players, and all they do is distract from the current conversation for a "bash elias" fest. There is no point in posting them.

(side note: this will be my last post of this sort. I feel like I'm giving mafia 101 lessons here, and it's starting to seem silly considering the ramifications of this game).

I'm the one being needlessly antagonistic? I've you read any of your posts lately? Youre the most condescending person I've ever played with. I know how to play the game. I'm weak as town, sure, but I'm not an idiot. If you had read my previous posts, youd know that telling me to continue analizing and protesting my votes is dumb as thats exactly what I had been doing to no avail. I never stopped reading or analizing.

Its not my fault if you found it offensive. For one, it actually did have a point, it wasnt just a useless post. I seriously wanted to point out how ridiculous the collapse of the DGB wagon was. My imitation of her posts was trying to illustrate how useless she's been since the collapse of the aforementioned wagon.

See, this is the kind of stuff that makes me not want to play with you anymore. It is absolutely not my fault that I found your post offensive, because it was clearly designed to be a slap in the face, i.e. offensive. If you have a point, make it a fucking point. If you seriously want to point something out, do it fucking seriously.

It is most definately your fault if youre offended by it. First, because however much you believe it to have been, it was not meant as a "slap in the face". It was meant to attack DGB's posts since the collapse of her wagon and bring attention back to said wagon. Calling it a "slap in the face" is completely your own perception of my tone. An incorrect perception. Calling it a slap in the face and disregarding its point is just as much a slap in the face as you percieve the original post to be.

Seeing as no one values my cases and my vote was already on DGB, how else would you propose I promote a DGB lynch?

Uhh... find someone else to lynch? I currently want to lynch bluesoul, but I'm not getting much support, so I'm investigating other candidates. Is this concept that foreign to you? Of course, it would probably require you to actually play and read the game, something you don't find fashionable anymore.

What part of "I'm not good at town" dont you understand? I said this earlier. The analysis I presented is about as strong analysis as I can provide. I guess it appears "half-assed" because I'm out of my league here. Why attempt to support a different lynch if I feel that DGB is the scummiest? This day should end, there is at least some support for the DGB lynch, and its best lynch for today.

You have to understand that I underestimated my summer obligation, and I apologized multiple times. It was unforeseeable how little I'd be able to post. Say whatever you want, but it wont change my mistakes. Nor will anything I say. Clearly no one is willing to put it behind them, so I dont have much of a choice except be a slacker.

I don't follow this logic at all. You know why it's such a huge fucking deal that you were gone for so long? Do you?

Do you know how fucking condescending you sound? Just curious. Yeah, I dont know why everyones pissed off All I'm saying is that being pissed about it accomplishes nothing but setting us back.

At the point that the game is no longer fun, I dont see the point in "playing the game" in the manner that you seem to think is THE WAY to play the game.

Do you see the point in getting replaced at the point where the game is no longer fun? What you're doing is not a "different way" to play the game, you're not playing at all.

Really? What am I doing right now? There is no requirement when you play to post content. Ever heard of babyjesus? I'm not saying the game isnt fun as such, but rather its not fun to play it how you want me to. Post analysis that is ignored and voted on. I'd much rather just sit on my analysis, make my own decisions, and wait for day two.

I'm coming back Day Two. I just dont see the point of throwing in my two cents today to snide remarks and disrespect.

Unless you get lynched today, as you so graciously suggested. You don't think your contributions are getting valued as you think they're supposed to be. They will be once your dead, to the point they're actually usable.

Cool.

And let's be perfectly clear on this:
I want you out of this game unless you start behaving like an adult

today

. That won't change if you still happen to be alive tomorrow. By acting the way you are right now, you're tarnishing your reputation as a player and your standing in this game beyond repair.

And lets be clear on this: I couldnt care less about whether you want me in or out of this game. For one, I'm not an adult. I'm 16. Your perception of how one should play in a game means about as much to me as the gum on the bottom of my shoe when its taken with the level of arrogance and condescension that seems natural to you. Its players like you that believe theres only one way to play the game that ruin it for the rest of us. I'm not trying to say I usually play as I've played here. There are occasions when I do, but not generally. But honestly. Play like an adult? What the fuck does that even mean? Either lynch me today, or talk to me tomorrow. If you expect me to "act like an adult" then how about you lose the undeserved sense of entitlement?

[Elias_the_thief]

If you don't want to contribute and play, please ask for replacement.

I'm sure the mod can find someone who is willing to replace in and contribute. It's not like we're at the brink of a lynch.

We should end the day. I've made my lynch choice clear.

Are you serious? I had to look at your posts in isolation and go back 18 posts (more than two weeks) to see who you are really trying to get lynched. If you really think she's so scummy that she should be lynched, then why would you make this comment? - in response to CTD saying your playstyle is a disgrace.

Then you obviously cant read. My "am I dead" post had clear intentions of poking at DGB. I am voting DGB. I stated at least 3 times in my major analysis posts that I wanted a DGB lynch. You've only proven to me how little my posts were even looked at.

The rest of your post is basically like "oh Elias ignore this". Well no shit. I stopped posting, remember? First I'm a lurker, then I'm selectively missing things? Get your story straight.

[Elias_the_thief]

I lurked much of the game: this was mostly due to camp. The lurking I did afterward was far from damning.

I thought lurking by you was never damning; that you do it both as scum and town. Why would you imply that the lurking after camp was somehow less damning? Very defensive and inconsistent stance.

I didn't imply that. I was simply stating that it wasn't damning. I was only stating them as two seperate periods as I had an excuse for the first period of lurking and I assumed that no one would be attacking me for it. Thus I defended my second period of lurking as "far from damning". Thats not inconsistent at all, and defensiveness isnt a scumtell.

Further, were I scum, I could have easily lurked straight through to Day Two as

basically no one was pressuring me

.

As town, I don't really take note of whether or not people are "pressuring me" in this manner. It's the kind of thing I take note of and respond to more as scum. Interesting that you claim to be aware of who's pressuring you and when.

Because you and me totally have identical playstyles and tells. If you recall I dont know how to scumhunt properly. Obviously a tell for you is a tell for me, because we play town so similarly.

Also, I call bullshit:

Not liking how Elias is only starting to post content now that he's getting called on it.

I've been getting called for it since like page ten actually

. Read MBL's posts in isolation and you'll see that.

You've been aware all game that I've been pressuring you since page 10. Why lie to us about that now? Possibility: because you have to lie to make your case that as scum you could have just safely lurked through. But I wouldn't let you.

That wasnt a lie at all. I said BASICALLY no one. Do you know what basically means? It means that its almost no one. As in 1-2 people is within the realm of basically no one.

Also, you sure do have a lot of null-tells:

If you read any of my games, you'll find that I get angry on both sides of the game. Its really a null tell

I'm actually very weak as a scumhunter. Maybe not very helpful, but this shouldnt be a scumtell given my playstyle.

My lurking isnt based on alignment, its based on available times, number of games I'm in, and how interesting I find the game.

The following seems to tacitly admit you lurk strategically as scum:

Sure, past lurking can be used against me in cases if you really think its that much of a tell

Overall, I'd say you're pretty damned interested in telling us what's an elias tell and what's not. And you're pretty damned interested in us concluding that NOTHING is an elias tell--it's all null, baby.

Well I guess youre right. Next time I'm being attacked for something I do on both sides of the game I'll just say that I do it as scum and get it over with. How am I supposed to defend myself if not show how the tells against me are incorrect? If the null tell argument is valid (which it happens to be in those scenarios) should I NOT use it?

291 through 393 is just post after post of a disgraceful defeatist attitude. Then in 394 she(DGB) mysteriously turns it around, as if kicked in the shins. I believe this turnaround is motivated by the realization that she may perhaps not be the day one lynch. This is something that would motivate scum a lot more than town IMO. If she were town, you'd think she would have been posting those PBP's a lot sooner. This is one of the main reasons I find her scummy.

So one of the main reasons you find DGB scummy is because she behaves the same exact way you do? A disgraceful, defeatist attitude followed by PBPAs you would have posted much sooner if you were town?

Ha. Yeah. I was never a defeatist. I never self voted. I voted DGB for several reasons, as you know. The defeatist attitude was one of them. The difference between DGBs turnaround to start posting and mine is that hers was motivated by the discovery that she wasnt going to be lynched, while mine was a spontaneous decision to make a second effort in this game. Not a huge distinction, but its there.

Ok Elias, let's back up for a second. You're not contributing anymore because people are persecuting you. You feel persecuted because just when you started to participate, people started voting you for no reason--they didn't read your PBPAs:

My problem is that I was voted immediately without acknowledgement of what was in those posts.

I hadnt hoped to prove I was back in the game. I had hoped that I could at least convince people to give me a chance to post all I had before wagoning me. Clearly this was an unrealistic expectation.

This led me to believe that I wasnt getting back in the game regardless, thus my effort was cut short.

So you've created an excuse to give you a reason not to post any more today. Let's see if your "persecution" argument flies.

It's pretty clear to me they were listening and decided they found your PBPA cases suspect and decided to apply more pressure to you: pablito 616, chamber 618, me in 628, pablito in 629, elvis 640, chamber 648, patrick 686, Patrick 689, pablito 703, me 706, bluesoul 709, Huck 713.

Holy shit, man, that's a lot of people specifically commenting on your PBPAs. And the poll numbers don't look good--78% of respondents say your PBPAs are badly lacking. Only Ether's 656 clears you, but she doesn't indicate she's read your PBPA posts at all--so if anything, the people DEFENDING you are the ones not paying attention to your posts, lol.

I said what was IN the posts, not the posts themselves. My point was that most of posts that mentioned them never specifically address anything in the posts. That was my problem; I was being voted for the posts but for no specifics, leaving me with nothing to defend.

And you even acknowledge your posts sucked, starting with your DGB case:

The reason I relied exclusively on DGB's words was essentially laziness. I was simply cutting corners, and for that I apologize.

I acknowledged that one post was bad. And not that it was scummy.

Here's your elvis analysis:

Certainly some bad posts in there. The main problem I have with her now that I've read over her posts myself is that she really seems to ignore a lot of major issues. Then, she picks up on something small, and makes a large post about it. I guess this is essentially lurking in plain site. In addition, she was pretty noncommittal early in the game. However, once attention was focused on her, she was forced to post about the meat of the game. Though shes had some bad posts late game, she has defended some of the major points against her well and overall improved the quality of her posting. I find her fairly scummy, but less so than DGB. As to whether she is in my top 3, its hard to say as

I've only fully analized two players as thoroughly as I should.

Ok, so elvis is scummy because she:
1) ignores major issues
2) nitpicks
3) was noncommittal early
4) has improved since wagoned

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm just sayin your bullet points are pretty weak. Couldn't you cite some specific elvis posts or cases to argue why you find her "fairly scummy"?

Do you want me to? Any reason you couldntve requested this when I posted the case instead of voting without attacking anything specific within the post?

bluesoul: Basically reads as town to me.

Your bluesoul post says he's town, but in your subsequent reasoning paragraph you list off six negatives and zero positives about him. Hello, if you're going to make the statement, "reads like town" give some supporting examples. Instead, you gave six examples why you might find him suspicious. No wonder people are keeping their votes on you--your "cases" aren't the least bit convincing.

If you actually read my post you'd see that I did say that several of bluesouls posts were good ones (in the numbered section). The negative comments were things I considered weird. I said quite clearly that I had no reason to write them off as scummy. The "agreeing/disagreeing" comment was just an observation. I didnt call it scummy or protown. The only thing in that paragraph that I actually called scummy was the refusal to answer sarcs question. Try reading next time, my post doesnt contradict itself at all.

I'm going to come across like a dick here, but there's no two ways about it: you really don't enjoy scumhunting, do you, elias? You have just about no interest, and it shows, and I'll admit it does make it difficult to tell if you're scum because I'm getting the sense you would be equally indifferent as town.

No. I dont enjoy scumhunting. Sometimes I'm better at it, like when I actually start a game at the beginning. But I'm not gonna lie, when I come into a game with 30 pages to sift through without having been around for any of it, I really dont enjoy it. I know its my fault, I know it makes me a bad town player, but I lack motivation to do it. You've got me pegged.

My hypothesis is that you decided to stop posting because you were getting yourself in trouble with your half-assed posts, and you decided to stop posting as a survival tactic. Sadly, I could see you using that tactic as either scum or town.

It was to some extent to stop getting myself out of trouble. A game where I'm completely on the defensive without anything to defend against gets boring eventually. But no, mainly it was because I dont see the point of posting when no one actually addresses my post beyond acknowledging its existence and voting me for it.

Back on topic, you claim that because you're being persecuted and your PBPAs ignored, you won't post your thoughts anymore:

I'll come back day two and see if you guys feel like listening to my posts. Just answer me this: If my posts simply cause votes against me, why post them? If no one values my cases, why make them? It seems to me I'm better off just voting for who I find scummy in this game, and keeping my reasoining to myself.

Did I ever say in my last post that I stopped reading the game? Or that I had no more cases I could be posting? No. I never said that. I have other things I could post.

But theres no point.

I have just demonstrated above that you are full of shit. Almost everyone in this game has commented on your PBPAs and said they were significantly lacking or scummy. There goes your excuse for not posting your thoughts, so I suggest you get to it. Just throw them out there stream of consciousness.

No you havent. My point wasnt that no one commented on their existence, I knew that much seeing as I was being voted for them. No one gave me anything specific, or anything to defend against. That was my point about 285245245 years ago, you can see that at the bottom of the bluesoul pbp.

From memory--no more PBPAs. You say you "have other things you could post". Well post them from memory--we won't hold you to being exact, but we will hold you to that claim that you had "more cases".

I really dont see the point. I dont particularly care for further vague attacks and votes coupled with a vote for annoyance when I attempt to defend myself. Not to mention this day has been going on way to long. Talk to me tomorrow.

If my posts simply cause votes against me, why post them?

Because you'll get better eventually. And for now, some of us may still be able to tell the difference between bad Elias scum and bad elias town. And maybe some of the votes on you are unsupported votes placed by scum and we'll spot them.

You have my cases on the players that I felt the strongest about. Its not worth the stress, honestly. Talk to me tomorrow. Or lynch me. Its up to you.

If no one values my cases, why make them?

Because if you come up town someday, we'll at least know your suspicions were sincere and perhaps follow them. And if you're scum you'll accidentally hand us your scumpartners as you make cases.

Cool. I'll totally do that. Tomorrow.

I'm only responding to this post because its the first to give me any specifics on why I was being voted. Give me more like that, and maybe I wont retreat for weeks. Anyhow, I'm not posting anything else about my reads today. I'm doubting that I'd receive anything but more of the same, I dont want to deal with the stress, and this day has to end. That is all.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias, is DGB the only person you see as pushing your case in a scummy manner? You seemed pretty ticked at the four people voting you, but never really suspicious of us.

I'm still waiting for more extensive explanations of the votes from some of those people. I'm not suspicious of your vote because now that you have actually attacked specific things the vote makes sense. DGB's makes NO sense, has not been explained, and there hasnt been a good quality post from her in ages. At least I'm here and responding to posts, usually with more than a sentence. DGB is being even more useless than I have been, and being scummy to boot.

Pablitos reasons seem much more fluff than actual reasoning, and almost all on perceived nuances in the way I word my posts. This bit is especially troubling.

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

He says he forgot his original reasons, and calls me out for "scummy behavior" without citing anything specific. His reasoning reads to me as someone trying to go with the flow on my wagon without reading my posts in depth.

"Starting discussion" in retrospect had little to do with voting you, you were pissing me off and I wasn't gonna miss you much if you happened to get dead. Your activity since then has been good but you want to know why I'm voting you now? DGB's not likely to get lynched so you're my second option, the wagon's decent sized, there's been good reactions to go by and, as I've been saying for a month or so, I'd still like to see someone safely dangling rather than get deadlined. In fact, DGB's sentiments are the same as mine, only she'd rather see e_k lynched but the wagon dissolved so you're her second choice. I don't believe you're any more blatantly scummy than our last two potential wagons, but at the moment I'd be inclined to call it a safe play, with the alternative being bird as I don't think he or Sarc have proven themselves either way yet.

This is actually kind of fair in my opinion. However, I think its fairly ridiculous that the wagon is still stronger on me than DGB when I'm actually willing to respond to posts against me while she isnt. She hasnt said anything over a sentence in weeks. I think now that its become clear that I'm willing to post at least fairly regularly at this point while DGB hasnt, that it doesnt make sense that bluesoul still thinks I'm the better lynch candidate.

So in conclusion: You and bluesoul seem to have legitimate reasons for voting me, though I think bluesouls is somewhat of a dated reason, and I think that date has passed. DGB's is pretty frickin scummy. You could say its a KIND OF similar sentiment to bluesouls, but that doesnt mean that DGBs isnt a whole deal scummier. Pablitos reason is scummy as it seems to be going with the flow rather than naming his own reasons.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias, is DGB the only person you see as pushing your case in a scummy manner? You seemed pretty ticked at the four people voting you, but never really suspicious of us.

I'm still waiting for more extensive explanations of the votes from some of those people. I'm not suspicious of your vote because now that you have actually attacked specific things the vote makes sense. DGB's makes NO sense, has not been explained, and there hasnt been a good quality post from her in ages. At least I'm here and responding to posts, usually with more than a sentence. DGB is being even more useless than I have been, and being scummy to boot.

Pablitos reasons seem much more fluff than actual reasoning, and almost all on perceived nuances in the way I word my posts. This bit is especially troubling.

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

Whatever reasons I once had? Sounds like he forgot his original reasons. He calls me out for "scummy behavior" without citing anything specific. His reasoning reads to me as someone trying to go with the flow on my wagon without reading my posts in depth.

"Starting discussion" in retrospect had little to do with voting you, you were pissing me off and I wasn't gonna miss you much if you happened to get dead. Your activity since then has been good but you want to know why I'm voting you now? DGB's not likely to get lynched so you're my second option, the wagon's decent sized, there's been good reactions to go by and, as I've been saying for a month or so, I'd still like to see someone safely dangling rather than get deadlined. In fact, DGB's sentiments are the same as mine, only she'd rather see e_k lynched but the wagon dissolved so you're her second choice. I don't believe you're any more blatantly scummy than our last two potential wagons, but at the moment I'd be inclined to call it a safe play, with the alternative being bird as I don't think he or Sarc have proven themselves either way yet.

This is actually kind of fair in my opinion. However, I think its fairly ridiculous that the wagon is still stronger on me than DGB when I'm actually willing to respond to posts against me while she isnt. She hasnt said anything over a sentence in weeks. I think now that its become clear that I'm willing to post at least fairly regularly at this point while DGB hasnt, that it doesnt make sense that bluesoul still thinks I'm the better lynch candidate.

So in conclusion: You and bluesoul seem to have legitimate reasons for voting me, though I think bluesouls is somewhat of a dated reason, and I think that date has passed. DGB's is pretty frickin scummy. You could say its a KIND OF similar sentiment to bluesouls, but that doesnt mean that DGBs isnt a whole deal scummier. Pablitos reason is scummy as it seems to be going with the flow rather than naming his own reasons.

[Elias_the_thief]

oops...

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm wondering how much of Elias's vaunted 10-1 record as scum is due to this same pattern:

* lurk while lazy town does nothing
* when called out, get indignant
* post some mediocre crap
* get really angry at anyone, after all, I'M POSTING NOW HOW DARE YOU
* back off and seem relatively reasonable
* refuse to do nothing further til the next day

Sadly, I think it's time to do some research. I would hate to lose to someone with that lame of a playstyle.

Occasionally. I'm not refusing to do anything, only refusing to post the rest of my PBPs as theyre irrelevant. And I'm certainly not refusing to lynch DGB. Thats doing something.

[Elias_the_thief]

anything should be capitalized to show that its not EVERYTHING that im refusing to do. that was vague.

[Elias_the_thief]

I texted shea about the game and so far no response. I'm not sure whats up with him.

[Elias_the_thief]

response from shea essentially equated to "fuck my life".

[Elias_the_thief]

Conclusion: elias does a good job of hiding his meta but it does seem he gets disinterested/bored more often as scum and then scrambles to save himself from lurker lynch. He's earned his good record--he is VERY weaselly when under fire. His indignance sounds real.

Way to make me feel shitty and good about my playstyle at the same time. I actually hadnt even realized the bit about disinterest. I think its worth noting that this game is under unique circumstances in that I was absent beyond my control early on.

I suggest that anyone who is thinking of clearing elias read a few of his other games before underestimating him. He is a clever monkey.

...thanks...?

Complete indifference and refusal to cooperate is not what I call "being weaselly".

I'm only refusing to "cooperate" in order to end this goddamn day as we've been sitting here discussing for ages. At this point I'm even considering doing as MBL asked and trying to clarify my case on DGB with more specific quotes just so we can lynch her and end this. But I am far from indifferent. I will be back in full force day two, if I live to see it.

[Elias_the_thief]

He's like 4-6 as town because he's not very good at scumhunting but manages to barely keep from getting lynched by whining, clawing and scratching. He's 10-1 as scum because he fails to scumhunt and blames it on his terrible scumhunting. And then claws, bites and scratches to keep from getting lynched for his lurking, terrible votes and arguments.

My votes and arguments are actually generally pretty sound, in terms of actual reasoning.

[Elias_the_thief]

Complete indifference and refusal to cooperate is not what I call "being weaselly".

I'm only refusing to "cooperate" in order to end this goddamn day as we've been sitting here discussing for ages. At this point I'm even considering doing as MBL asked and trying to clarify my case on DGB with more specific quotes just so we can lynch her and end this. But I am far from indifferent. I will be back in full force day two, if I live to see it.

This was actually a quote from me, but I assume you just mistyped.

You've stated several times that you wouldn't mind getting lynched (you even encouraged it at some point). How is that not indifference?

Yes I mistyped. But did you actually read the post where I said that? I said that my lynch isnt really that terrible an idea IF you guys continue to disregard my contribution. I was talking about how my lynch might be beneficial to town simply because no one valued what I said so you wouldnt be losing anything and it would end the day (which really should happen soon). Noting that my own lynch might be good for town is far from indifferent.

[Elias_the_thief]

Citing one example is far from proving something universally. In some scenarios lynching a townie can be helpful to town. And further, EVEN IF youre right, I still disagree with you. I think that it helps town win. What matters in determining whether I'm indifferent is my intention, not whether or not my action actually furthers my win condition. I was talking about my own lynch because I believe it may be helpful to the town. My

intention

is to help town and therefore I'm not indifferent. Dont tell me I'm indifferent because you have a different opinion on whether a townie lynch can help town.

[Elias_the_thief]

I do. I'll try to respond to his post in depth tomorrow, but there are several contradictions in there, and more than a few generalities with no details.

[Elias_the_thief]

Still don't think Elvis is scum. Still unable to get around to addressing Pablito, but still here.

[Elias_the_thief]

I modded one of those!

[Elias_the_thief]

MBL, I voted for DGB because I felt like she needed some pressure and Elias didn't feel the heat from the pressure that was on him. DGB has shown reaction to pressure and I wanted to see if her reaction would be similar to the previous one. Elias still remains suspect #1 for me, but I felt I needed to go around things differently to see what goes on. And as we've seen, DGB doesn't care right now and pressure won't affect her either.

This is utter bullshit. Me and DGB responded in an almost identical manner to the pressure, the only difference being that I'm making substantial (although in most players opinions, poor) posts. DGB has posted nothing of use over the last oh, 10 pages? At best, you're applying a double standard. At worst, this is you bullshitting to push my lynch over DGB's.

DGB's softclaim does not surprise me, but I think it sucks. I can't remember off hand, but I'm not even sure if she actually did say she was a power role, but only hinted at the possibility, right? Either way, it wasn't necessarily what

she

did with it afterward that got people to suspect her less or back off her, it was what others did with it (ie: Ether) that really got others to back off her (plus DGB's death-row final confession opinion post). And because DGB really isn't answering much lately, no one feels like pressuring her heavily. Whereas those who react to some pressure have really been on the radar mostly during today. She's possibly scum, but her previous play and my faults from my meta on her make me less certain of my stance on her.

This is also bullhonkery. People dont feel like applying pressure to her heavily? Well here's a news flash: here wagon is bigger than mine right now.

Elias doesn't like that I look at language to find scum, well tough. I think language is the only tell we have here.

Thats not what I said at all. I said that its unreliable. I could go either way on whether I like it or not. Especially when you dont take the time to look into the meta of the player youre applying it to. Not all players have the same thought process, some of us just saw a phrase used in a game and picked it up independant of alignment, like me and "for the town". This method of scumhunting you use is applying a universal standard where one doesnt belong.

While some go on logistics and progressive consistency of cognition, I go on how people subconsciously decide to portray themselves through language. I get gut feelings, but I like it. I will say, however, that Elias mentioning this point makes me feel a bit easier about him though.

Oh good. Now you have the same number of specific reasons for calling me town as you do for calling me scum. Congrats.

Elias' PBPAs were meant to be boring, long lists that were extremely esoteric. It was made to help himself find scum, not to persuade others. The layout of those posts were not easy to read and were not emphatic enough to really make anyone care about what he said. And that to me shows more evidence to his lack of scumhunting. At that point he tried to protray that he was looking, but he really wasn't. He seemed like he was going through the motions. That sounds scummy.

If you claim that I made them for myself, how is that going through the motions? How can you claim I wasn't looking when I made a comment on almost every individual post?

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

He says he forgot his original reasons, and calls me out for "scummy behavior" without citing anything specific. His reasoning reads to me as someone trying to go with the flow on my wagon without reading my posts in depth.

I never said I forgot my original reasons, I was saying that no matter what I once believed about you, there is more (at that point) that makes you look worse than previous scummy behavior (which was the way that you used language - specifically "for the town" and the PBPAs). You're trying to defuse my attacks on me Elias, but he's trying to paint me as deficient. I don't like it, in fact. Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric. They almost feel like they weren't intended for anyone else to read; they're like notes.

Lol. I'm trying to paint you as deficient? You do a pretty good job of that yourself when you admit to not even reading my posts in depth. Why does it matter that theyre like notes? How does that make me scummy? You claim that more reasons are being added BUT YOU HAVE NEVER CITED ANYTHING SPECIFIC BESIDES "FOR THE TOWN". Can you understand why that is extremely aggravating, and how it fails to actually justify a vote?

Elias on the other hand is the most insistent on his suspect. Makes me doubt him a little bit.

Why?

Votes at this point really aren't saying too much except when it's on Elias.

See earlier. My wagon is smaller at this point, and I'm not posting my analysis today either way.

At this point, I'd much rather lynch Elias than DGB.

vote: Elias_the_thief

You still have yet to provide solid reasons for why. Lets go over what you said in this post.

1. I will be more pressured by a vote than DGB.
2. DGB isnt responding so you wont vote her.
3. You feel easier about me for mentioning the language point.
4. My list were meant to help me find scum not others, yet they were going through the motions.
5. More on language being bad, my pbps are like notes, didnt read in depth.
6. Unexplained suspicion
7. See 1 and 2.

That is the entirety of your argument for my lynch. If that isnt deficient, then maybe I've just been playing this game all wrong. 3 points in there are that pressure on DGB wont work. This is dumb because DGBs wagon is bigger and because the time for pressure is over, its time to start deciding who you actually think is scum. Pressure being ineffective on DGB in no way justifies my lynch without further evidence against me. Number 4 is pure wishywashiness, and 5 talks about language being bad, and cites ONE specific example, which is "for the town". Something I say quite a lot on either side of the game. Number 3 is actually supporting me as town. So where is you case for me? You claim I'm scummy for calling your case deficient, well IT IS.

[Elias_the_thief]

Basing a meta of "always" on two games. The one that just ended being a game in which I was SK, not mafia. Real reliable meta there lowell.

[Elias_the_thief]

First, take a look at the first thing I say in 850 if you really think not calling him scum more fervently is any sort of implication. That point aside, what point is there in declaring my suspicion for him more than once? I want a DGB lynch because DGB is scummier, less useful to town (even if town) and the vote leader. Pablito is my number two suspect, behind DGB. Why am I not attempting to get a Pablito lynch? Well why attempt to start a competing wagon when I just want the day to end?

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah...I look for holes in arguments. Its what I do. Did you NOT read that list of games you posted? I'm pretty sure theres at least one or two examples of me doing this, such the game with the extended argument with Vollkan. I dont see how this is really a tell for me. How can DGB possibly be looking for scum? She hasnt said anything worth a second read in 10 pages at the least. I admit I'm not really doing too much scumhunting now as I'm mainly trying to end this day with the lynch I believe to be correct (DGB) and waiting on content til tomorrow, but DGB hasnt posted anything over a sentence or two and saying that shes actually scumhunting is ridiculous.

[Elias_the_thief]

***but DGB hasnt posted anything over a sentence or two. Saying that shes actually scumhunting is ridiculous.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias defends himself too aggressively.

unvote, vote: Elias

I actually lol'd at this. Go read some of my other games. Or my sig.

[Elias_the_thief]

I want a DGB lynch because DGB is scummier, less useful to town (even if town) and the vote leader.

Really... Really?

unvote, vote: Elias

Now we have another vote leader. YOU.

You must also be scummier and less useful to the town.

It gets more interesting now.

The bolded part makes no sense. My reasoning that you are scummier and less useful to the town is completely independant of you being the vote leader when I made the post. You are less useful to the town because you don't post as much content. You are scummier because even pablito's deficient reasoning is better then yours, and because you've been playing scummily the whole game while Im suspicious of pablito mainly for his recent push on my wagon.

[Elias_the_thief]

You can make up clever anecdotes all you like. The fact of the matter is that strong, agressive defense is a key aspect of my playstyle. Voting me for defending myself too agressively is just being naive.

[Elias_the_thief]

By stopping the lynch of a town player, for one.

Additionally, its part of my playstyle. Whether it helps the town is obviously debatable, but it helps me decrease the diference between my scum and town play. Thats why I do it, you can read several of my past games to see I do it on either side of the game.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm not playing scummy. You have yet to show in any way how agressive defense is scummy.

[Elias_the_thief]

An aggressive defense says that you're more worried about not being lynched than about finding scum.

False. Agressive defense says you wish to get out votes off you fast so that you can get back to scumhunting, as opposed to a weak delayed defense which allows discussion to stall. Agressive discussion also forces genuine responses from attackers, forcing them to reveal how true their suspicions are.

Um...in case of a 24 delayed daykill I would post as much analysis as I have and attack DGB some more.

[Elias_the_thief]

I will never, ever remove a vote from someone just because they called an argument against them "bullshit". Would you?

No. The word bullshit is completely inconsequential. I would remove my vote in the face of the logic that backs up their claim that the original argument was "bullshit". I never abandon logic in favor of slurs. I'd suggest that you don't stop reading just because of an explitive.

[Elias_the_thief]

Bullshit does help the defense, as explitives add emphasis. That is the entire point of explitives, to add more weight to things you say. Being worried about not being lynched is not a scumtell. If it were, no one would ever defend against anything. "QED".

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias and DGB, if you knew you had just been hit by a 24-hour delayed daykill with no way to save yourself, what last words would you leave to help the town?

Um...in case of a 24 delayed daykill I would post as much analysis as I have and attack DGB some more.

Nice evasion.

I noticed you dropped the point on agressive defense. I could easily say the same to you. In would be more true there then here since I actually answered your question.

[Elias_the_thief]

Chat games make natural tendencies clearer because people have less time to think. My experience in chat is that scum's gut reaction is to be more defensive than townies. I see evidence of that gut reaction in elias.

But that point simply doesnt work for me based on meta. You will get the same gut read on other games that I've been town. Seriosly go read some of the games that MBL listed a few pages back.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias is overdefensive. I don't get his attacks on me. Yes, I have been persistent on him, but I do not think it is inconsistent with my game.

I am not overdefensive. I addressed everything you attacked me for. I barely even attacked you, besides calling your attacks on me deficient. I dont believe that overdefensiveness is a scumtell anyhow, but I'm noting this blatant misrepresentation for tomorrow. Or maybe today if you keep making ridiculously bad posts like this one.

Within the chronological context, Elias made his last post when momentum was actually gaining toward DGB. Why he wouldn't focus his efforts on getting DGB lynched at that time is curious for me. It either means he feels comfortable that DGB was going to fall, or he isn't trying to get DGB lynched at all is only focusing on defending against his attacks.

This is more ridiculousness. I responded to your post because it was attacking me, and saying that your number two choice was DGB. If I can successfully refute your arguments against me, then the only logical thing for you to do is fall back onto DGB. With most of the town falling in the direction of DGB, defeating the attacks of one of my more stubborn attackers is a good way to move towards that lynch.

Either way, kinda goes to show exactly what I had said earlier - that pressuring DGB hasn't given us much despite the group's efforts.

Then why are you allowing her to lurk through the day with minimal posts and commitment to any certain standpoint?

At least in the latter half of this day, but when you pressure Elias one inch he throws back seven yards at you. To me, that's useful.

Its what I do. Very clever Pab, youve discovered that I am being consistent with my meta. Very useful indeed This portion of your post is fairly accurate though, in the sense that your attacks are the equivalent of an inch.

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him. I still have doubts about DGB, but right now Elias motivation for everything is still focused on him, him, him - and that's not helpful for the town.

More than enough information? You havent listed any specific things that I havent refuted at least sufficiently to drop under your top one spot. You claim that I'm unhelpful, yet all you've done for the last 5-6 pages is attack me baselessly, and with no details that allow me to defend myself.

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now, except one thing.

Maybe because I refuted your arguments and pointed out the gaping flaws in yoour attacks?

Those PBPA posts, mean nothing to me.

The wording in my pbps is what you claim motivates your vote. MAKES SENSE.

Why? Elias is forcing me to read along with him rather than trying to explain in text what he thinks about these people the entire time. I'd much rather that he take the pertinent parts and explain it further.

The fact that you'd prefer it if I formatted my PBP's differently does not make me scum. And you're a good enough player to know this.

So while these posts may be "scumhunting" they did nothing to persuade anyone because these posts didn't look genuine or persuasive enough to sway someone. That's what I mean with the whole "scumhunting" thing.

Why does that make me scummy?

Elias, show us how lynching DGB has been your priority.

No. In fact, lynching DGB is no longer my priority.

unvote, vote: pablito

.

Reasons for the vote, if anyone missed them:

1)

Going with the flow mentality (also, deficient attacks). Citing generic reasons that others are voting me, while ADMITTING FREELY THAT HE DIDNT READ MY POSTS IN DETAIL

Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric.

Regardless of whether theyre esoteric, voting me for something you didnt even read thoroughly is ridiculous.

2)

Misrepresenting my defense. Pablito has called me overdefensive on more than one occasion, when my responses are perfectly warranted, as I am one of the two leading lynch candidates with deadline looming. I have responded to every point he has brought up and have in no way overreacted to my current situation

3)

Suspicious connections to DGB. Though Pablito has replaced her as my number one suspect, DGB is still up there. The fact that you've been applying double standards left and right about how much we are pressured, how much we are lurking, how much we are scumhunting etc, is very VERY suspicious. This is one of the main reasons I'm ok switching to you at this point.

4)

Evasiveness. On numerous occasions pab has dropped generic phrases, such as

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him.

and

But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately.

Pablito fails to elaborate on these points. In my last defensive post, I point out how his lengthy argument supporting his vote for me is lacking in almost every way. I list each argument he makes against me and show how most of it has to do with DGB not responding to pressure and how he almost has more points supporting me than attacking me. He ignores the post. His justification for this?

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now

Nice Pablito. You dont care to. And you dont "get" my attacks on you When MBL posted my analysis of DGB, it opened my eyes somewhat to the fact that it really isnt THAT strong. Up until now it was the most scummy behavior that I felt I had seen. With your last post, you have WAY eclipsed that. The "I don't care to" is really what sealed it for me.

[Elias_the_thief]

I just don't have the time to listen to your whining now.

Lol. Happy with my choice. As I make the most detailed post so far this game, with a solid attack on you, you dismiss it as whining. This epitomizes what I've been saying all game about how my opinions obviously arent worth shit so I really should just stop posting them.

[Elias_the_thief]

I never said I wouldn't move it back at deadline. That post (and the posts that hes been making lately) warrant a vote. Maybe a few people will join his wagon. If not, I'll return to DGB at deadline.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm not sold on an elias lynch. The case against him is basically "you're defensive and not scumhunting" which as he says is his meta as town or scum.

He says

he acts the same as town or scum, and you believe him?

First three games I read of elias as scum, he posted one or two sentence posts and everyone let him coast through the game.

Then I read this one, and he spouted CAPITALIZED FUCK YOUS and RETARDS when he was at L-1. And continued that attitude throughout the game. And was scum.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6623

In this game, elias was scum and said that he was "done with this day" and that day ones are worthless for finding scum and such:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6869

In this game as scum, elias gets overdefsnsive after making a vote mistake and putting someone at L-1. Soon afterwards, he is bored of the game on D1 again.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5025

Elias lurked to victory in this game as scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6479

In this game as scum, elias is fairly active and when he gets in trouble counterattacks a player aggressively and gets him to back down:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6101

In this game as scum and a couple of the others, elias volunteers his own meta:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5221

In this game as town, elias survived a ton of attacks for his lurking. He got super overdefensive and angry, and called people MEAN NAMES IN CAPS.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5886

Conclusion: elias does a good job of hiding his meta but it does seem he gets disinterested/bored more often as scum and then scrambles to save himself from lurker lynch. He's earned his good record--he is VERY weaselly when under fire. His indignance sounds real.

I suggest that anyone who is thinking of clearing elias read a few of his other games before underestimating him. He is a clever monkey.

I would say yes, he does. Or he at least is willing to take it into consideration, which is great deal more protown then disregarding it completely. You should read the game now. Then decide who's scum.

[Elias_the_thief]

You dont have to take my word for it. A protown player would consider it, then go read for themselves. Thank you for the mocking town on the end, it sure adds to the game and makes you seem like an intelligent player.

[Elias_the_thief]

tone*

[Elias_the_thief]

I didn't.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'd say the scumteam is at Pablito-DGB and ill have to get back to you on the third mafioso tomorrow. As much as I hate Xyl for not reading the thread and completely ignoring meta, I dont find it scummy. I guess his standpoint on metas makes sense for him, being almost purely a #mafia player =/

In other news, I think that a Chamber wagon would be beneficial, as we know the least about him, though it can wait til tomorrow. I'm considering rewriting my DGB case with newer stuff inculded.

MBL, when you graded those cases, are you grading them based on how convincing they are, or how much effort went in to them/how sincere you felt they were? Or a combination?

[Elias_the_thief]

ironic, given your avatar. I'd be down for a lowell wagon.

unvote, vote lowell

[Elias_the_thief]

unvote, vote: elias

Were you convinced by Lowells refusal to claim? Or is this just a random switch?

[Elias_the_thief]

unvote, vote: DGB

[Elias_the_thief]

yay for nonexistant cases leading to lynches. yay for unanswered questions. yay for MBL!

[Elias_the_thief]

Well in the case of your vote, im pretty justified in declaring the case bullshit.

[Elias_the_thief]

You should wear better deoderant in the future.

[Elias_the_thief]

What is your opinion? If you want a fullclaim, why are you voting me?

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias is overdefensive. I don't get his attacks on me. Yes, I have been persistent on him, but I do not think it is inconsistent with my game.

I am not overdefensive. I addressed everything you attacked me for. I barely even attacked you, besides calling your attacks on me deficient. I dont believe that overdefensiveness is a scumtell anyhow, but I'm noting this blatant misrepresentation for tomorrow. Or maybe today if you keep making ridiculously bad posts like this one.

Within the chronological context, Elias made his last post when momentum was actually gaining toward DGB. Why he wouldn't focus his efforts on getting DGB lynched at that time is curious for me. It either means he feels comfortable that DGB was going to fall, or he isn't trying to get DGB lynched at all is only focusing on defending against his attacks.

This is more ridiculousness. I responded to your post because it was attacking me, and saying that your number two choice was DGB. If I can successfully refute your arguments against me, then the only logical thing for you to do is fall back onto DGB. With most of the town falling in the direction of DGB, defeating the attacks of one of my more stubborn attackers is a good way to move towards that lynch.

Either way, kinda goes to show exactly what I had said earlier - that pressuring DGB hasn't given us much despite the group's efforts.

Then why are you allowing her to lurk through the day with minimal posts and commitment to any certain standpoint?

At least in the latter half of this day, but when you pressure Elias one inch he throws back seven yards at you. To me, that's useful.

Its what I do. Very clever Pab, youve discovered that I am being consistent with my meta. Very useful indeed This portion of your post is fairly accurate though, in the sense that your attacks are the equivalent of an inch.

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him. I still have doubts about DGB, but right now Elias motivation for everything is still focused on him, him, him - and that's not helpful for the town.

More than enough information? You havent listed any specific things that I havent refuted at least sufficiently to drop under your top one spot. You claim that I'm unhelpful, yet all you've done for the last 5-6 pages is attack me baselessly, and with no details that allow me to defend myself.

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now, except one thing.

Maybe because I refuted your arguments and pointed out the gaping flaws in yoour attacks?

Those PBPA posts, mean nothing to me.

The wording in my pbps is what you claim motivates your vote. MAKES SENSE.

Why? Elias is forcing me to read along with him rather than trying to explain in text what he thinks about these people the entire time. I'd much rather that he take the pertinent parts and explain it further.

The fact that you'd prefer it if I formatted my PBP's differently does not make me scum. And you're a good enough player to know this.

So while these posts may be "scumhunting" they did nothing to persuade anyone because these posts didn't look genuine or persuasive enough to sway someone. That's what I mean with the whole "scumhunting" thing.

Why does that make me scummy?

Elias, show us how lynching DGB has been your priority.

No. In fact, lynching DGB is no longer my priority.

unvote, vote: pablito

.

Reasons for the vote, if anyone missed them:

1)

Going with the flow mentality (also, deficient attacks). Citing generic reasons that others are voting me, while ADMITTING FREELY THAT HE DIDNT READ MY POSTS IN DETAIL

Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric.

Regardless of whether theyre esoteric, voting me for something you didnt even read thoroughly is ridiculous.

2)

Misrepresenting my defense. Pablito has called me overdefensive on more than one occasion, when my responses are perfectly warranted, as I am one of the two leading lynch candidates with deadline looming. I have responded to every point he has brought up and have in no way overreacted to my current situation

3)

Suspicious connections to DGB. Though Pablito has replaced her as my number one suspect, DGB is still up there. The fact that you've been applying double standards left and right about how much we are pressured, how much we are lurking, how much we are scumhunting etc, is very VERY suspicious. This is one of the main reasons I'm ok switching to you at this point.

4)

Evasiveness. On numerous occasions pab has dropped generic phrases, such as

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him.

and

But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately.

Pablito fails to elaborate on these points. In my last defensive post, I point out how his lengthy argument supporting his vote for me is lacking in almost every way. I list each argument he makes against me and show how most of it has to do with DGB not responding to pressure and how he almost has more points supporting me than attacking me. He ignores the post. His justification for this?

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now

Nice Pablito. You dont care to. And you dont "get" my attacks on you When MBL posted my analysis of DGB, it opened my eyes somewhat to the fact that it really isnt THAT strong. Up until now it was the most scummy behavior that I felt I had seen. With your last post, you have WAY eclipsed that. The "I don't care to" is really what sealed it for me.

Still waiting for a response to this. Your double standards between me and DGB alone are worthy of a lynch.

vote: pablito

Echo the question to Lowell: why did you kill chamber?[/b]

[Elias_the_thief]

A reread has nearly convinced me that elvis_knits is not scum with DGB.

Elias, have you found the third mafioso yet?

I'll get back to you after we wagon Pablito.

[Elias_the_thief]

I am amazed at the lack of attention that pablito is getting... he was very clearly applying double standards between me and DGB, DGB is dead scum, and Pablito is only mentioned in passing? WTF?

[Elias_the_thief]

Take everything he said about pressure votes and lurking when it applies to me. Then look at how he values those issues when applied to DGB. Last page I posted my case, with quotes of a couple of the things he said.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias -- I read your post on pablito. It's mostly criticising his attacks on you, and not really a comparison to his treatment of DGB.

I didnt claim it to be. I was just saying that there were a few examples. I was hoping that I wouldnt have to do ALL the work for this wagon, and that maybe it would be possible for other players came to their own conclusions instead of waiting for me to post a case that they can follow without being suspected.

[Elias_the_thief]

Take everything he said about pressure votes and lurking when it applies to me. Then look at how he values those issues when applied to DGB. Last page I posted my case, with quotes of a couple of the things he said.

I'm up for lynching a lurker, but as long as it's one that I want lynched. CDB does not fit that bill.

I fail to see the problem? Elias?

Does that post in any way relate to me or DGB? /fail.

[Elias_the_thief]

I assume you're not stupid, therefore

vote: Elias

...? I have no idea what point you've been trying to make over the last few posts. Congrats on your puzzling and baseless vote.

[Elias_the_thief]

I have no idea what youre asking me. Clarify yourself, then I'll clarify myself. I'm not intent on dodging your questions, you just seem intent on missing me with them.

[Elias_the_thief]

The point on CTD is a blanket assessment. I'm talking about when he tries to make justifications for his votes based on pressure and how it affects us, as well as how he evaluates our responses, which were very similar in many aspects aside from her failure to prolong her participation.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm sorry to have fallen back into lurking again, I promise to get out at the earliest opportunity. But its not just this game its all of them. This is caused by the fact that I have a gf now and it makes it a little more difficult to make time for mafia. Sorry.

[Elias_the_thief]

I am here. I am playing catch up in multiple games, and this one is unfortunately taking the backseat as one is deadlined, and the other I am even further behind then this one. I hope to be back in all my games by the end of this weak. The deadlined one is close, and I'm almost halfway through the other.

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm here. I'm cool with the mass claim. I wasn't here enough yesterday, but Pablito was much scummier than hackerhuck and I still find him scummiest. Depending on his claim, my vote will be there.

[Elias_the_thief]

Vanilla. Pablito should be next.

[Elias_the_thief]

This isn't a hard choice to make.

vote: Pablito

. I don't really think that CTD is that scummy for his posts today, but its true that hes defended Pablito in the past.

[Elias_the_thief]

As scummy as Pablito is, if his self hammer is ineffective, then I'm probably going to switch over to Patrick. I mean, its certainly possible that there is a mafia priest, but it seems like a bit of bastard moddery, because it makes mafia extremely disadvantaged if the priest is alive by himself in endgame. It seems that if scum hasnt come under a lot of suspicioun they wouldnt have claimed the quirk, and it would seem weird to bring up suddenly in endgame.

[Elias_the_thief]

Well the double investigation had me screwed either way, though I suppose i couldve tried to claim something with a gun during the mass claim. That would have been a ridiculously lucky play though.

To a certain extent I'm unhappy because Pablitos's claim was out of a realm of safe names that shea provided, but to be fair I didnt realize that either, until it was too late.

And I do owe an apology to a certain extent. I DID have a legitimate reason to be out of the early game, but I definately waited to get back into the game longer than I should have. However, this honestly hurt my own chances more than it helped them.

Anyhoo, good game.

[Elias_the_thief]

And thanks for handing me my second scum loss. Only my second time being lynched as scum, in fact. =/

[Elias_the_thief]

It's sad you guys won't be coming back but it was fun playing with you.

Same.

Word.

Fo' Sho'.