Mini #682: C9++ (Game Over!)

[springlullaby]

Lol, seems I signed up for the wrong game again. Ok, I'm crap at evaluating game mechanics when it involves probabilities and such so I'm against any kind of claim unless someone can explain better than germy why it would be a good idea.

Vote CF RIOT

[springlullaby]

unvote vote sekinj

[springlullaby]

Because I didn't like sekinj post.

1. I don't see her walking the walk.
2. I don't see contradiction between scumhunting and random voting.

[springlullaby]

@spring: lol - I'm goign to just chalk that up to a random vote and ignore it.

Why the 'lol', what do you find humorous? Do you not agree with what I said?

What would you do if it wasn't a random vote?

It isn't quite.

[springlullaby]

Btw, I find the discussion around the vig disturbing, no doubt because I don't entirely comprehend it.

Please, someone not too lazy and crap a math brainwave me this: in term of setup discovery, is it more helpful for scum or for town to find out if there is a SK/vig.

[springlullaby]

I don't think germy is likely to be scum, sekinj you're not gonna really ignore me are you? I really didn't like what you said about scumhunting you know.

[springlullaby]

My point is I don't see you scumhunting.

[springlullaby]

I think it's very unlikely that germy could fake 'self-important town' so good. From the formatting of that post to the tone and content. If germy is scum, tipsing my hat right here for that show.

Though in honesty I'm not sure if the 'Second' paragraph really make sense, and I'm not gonna try to figure it out because I already said I'm crap at evaluating probabilities and such.

As for me,

springlullaby is mafia

• The attack on sekinj seems excessive, plus I don't like a "random vote" in her first post when she had already begun discussing my claim.

Excessive really? I feel I'm being merely conversational, if not banter-y. And not everything is about you babe, thing is when I discussed your claim in my first post, I didn't intend to 'begin' anything, but rather to close the chapter, because I didn't find your stunt that interesting.

My read on you for now, germy, is 'a bit on the presumptuous side, attention grabbing, doesn't know better' town. Am I right?

My point is I don't see you scumhunting.

Your right, I hadn't yet kicked my scumhunting into gear on page 2. however, I also wasn't participating or promoting the random voting, which was my point. Rather than continue random voting, let's start scum hunting. and no, I don't have a case on anyone yet, but I am participating and noticing how everyone interacts.

Why did that one word put you into such a tizzy?

I didn't like it, and didn't like the post about ignoring me. Do you have any conclusions so far?

[springlullaby]

Right, I'm not particularly enjoying the new turn of the discussion and wouldn't be unhappy if you guys would just leave the setup alone. It's no fun and I think scum have brains too.

Germy, I still think you're most probably town, but you're starting to push it.
What's the point of hunting for scum reaction when you make evident what you are doing?

I dislike mykonian's last post a lot, I don't see any point in it. Myko, would you care to explain what purpose it served?

I'd like to see more from afatchic and all people who have no vote placed on someone.

[springlullaby]

Sekinj, who would you like to vote for?

[springlullaby]

I'm troubled by the recent attacks on Kairyuu him because I have a very confident and consistent town read on him, his case against afatchic could be perceived as a bit shaky since the later hasn't actually posted much, but I like the aggressive style.

I like the case on Artem and afatchic.

Though it's impossible to have much of a read on afatchic, what little he post doesn't make him look good, and he certainly deserves the pressure.

Artem (Hi btw, I wanted to say hi earlier but forgot ! ), I'm starting to lean scum on him, in the newbie game he mentioned, I remember him as quite well put together but here his content reads bubble headed or even inane when it's not obvious. I can totally imagine Artem thinking it a good idea to play newbie-ness to his advantage. I'm also not liking his defense. And I wouldn't say Kairyuu is being aggressive to everyone indiscriminately.

(Btw, for the record, I totally nailed Artem-scum in Newbie 588 )

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.

Unvote, Vote Artem

[springlullaby]

Also, germy, what do you think of afatchic?

[springlullaby]

Hmm, rereading, I'm totally repeating myself. Blaming it on being tired, got my sentiment across anyway.

[springlullaby]

Well, other than knowing my own alignment to be town, I agree with the idea. I think that if we lynch afatchic then if he flips scum germy will be more likely town, because of the buddying up and then backing down. If he flips town, then I will hope that someone can confirm my alignment, but if they can't then I will not fight against being the D2 lynch, because I was the one who proposed the case in the first place.

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around a statement like that.

Let us be clear.

Are you asking to be copped tonight so you can be confirmed?

Are you, in the same paragraph, stating that if you can't be confirmed, you are willing to be lynched tomorrow?

1- Explain in which situation it is ideal for a cop to come out D2 in the interest of revealing a negative investigation.

2- Explain how any given cop should be taking such a risk for someone who have stated their willingness to be lynched if they can't be confirmed.

3 - Explain why I shouldn't be voting you right now.

[springlullaby]

This discussion is leading nowhere without Kairyuu. Don't claim for other people, it serves nothing, let Kairyuu answer.

[springlullaby]

Germy, germy, you're pinging my scumdar.

[springlullaby]

Oh mykonian, I don't think I misinterpreted you, I'm simply saying that you should let Kairyuu answer.

[springlullaby]

Prod: afatchic

[springlullaby]

I'm putting my posting my thoughts on hold until Kayryuu's partner has claimed.

One thing though, I'd like to hear more from our lurkers: afatchic, alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt, and wolframnhart.

Five lurkers in a 12 people town is too disproportionate for my liking, especially with a claim on the table.

[springlullaby]

Prod: alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt

Comon guys, don't be annoying and lame, post.

I'll post something bigger later, I want these people to post first. I have to big suspects as for now.

[springlullaby]

Sidenote: Now we know we have a mafia roleblocker (if we believe mykonian and Kairyuu, and myself). We at least have MMAAXXX (where A is my claimed dependent role, and X are the unknowns). So, a maximum of three T's, which means a guaranteed mafia blocker, and if we have a serial killer they can survive one kill attempt every Night.

If we believe all three of you, that also means that we have no cop.

Btw, quoting this here for future reference. I do believe it is a scum slip.

[springlullaby]

Because I want to.

[springlullaby]

Right, this game is starting to tire me and I think it is time to reach a lynch soon.

----
Kairyuu, I think you are not properly apologetic for what I see as bad play -if you are genuinely town - your 'trap' or whatever you call it was certainly not well thought out and didn't cover every possible interpretation, though I do take responsibility for jumping the gun.

Concerning your claim in itself, I'm perfectly ok to let it go atm because yours and mykonian's names are linked now.

Although, if you are indeed town, Kairyuu, please take a deep breath and try to sounds less self-righteous, because misplaced confidence doesn't make you look good.

You mentioned question and failed case concerning me, explain and I'll answer.

----------------------------

Now.

I retract my earlier statement concerning the Artem quote, I had overlooked something, my bad.

I'm also retracting my suspicion of germy. Basically it was based on the fact that since his earlier posts, his scumhunting has been minimal: posting reactive comments instead of being inquisitive, and all his votes sucks. This led me to reexamine his half-claim and the setup more closely, which made me realize that what I thought as 'too risky and pretentious to be scum' was actually not so risky as a scum gambit if germy himself is investigation immune: if that is the case, half-claiming day one to attract an investigation isn't bad play by half, especially since his claim leaves him a lot of wriggling room. Plus, the more I examine it, the less I see the protown advantage to his claiming, but cruising through the day relying on town's natural reluctance to push possible powerole and wait for an investigation at night make a lot of sense as scum.

So yes, I'm putting the idea out there that germy could be SK with immunity or godfather, I think it is a definite possibility and town should keep it in mind (plus if it is the case, I will be able to say 'I wasn't fooled),

but

I've decided that I'm unwilling to pursue that point atm because I think one claim is enough for a day and frankly I fear I'm being paranoid.

Note here that bringing Kairyuu and germy's claim in comparison, I definitively trust Kairyuu's more than germy's at the moment, because of mykonian backing Kairyuu's up.

----------------

Now, concerning who I'm willing to lynch, I'm going to stick with Artem, because I still think the Artem vs Kairyuu thing was much ado about nothing, but I believe Artem's vote on Kairyuu was a pre-emptive and defensive OMGUS reaction to Kairyuu's mentionning the beginning of suspicion on him. But I have to say it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point.

sekinj, I'm willing to lynch too, because her vote and rapid unvote on Kairyuu does look opportunist and the long explanation about her unvote sounds more defensive than it needed to. And her indecision is starting to grate on my nerves again.

afatchic/Schez, I can see him going either way, but I can't help but feel that afat would have tried harder had he been scum.

CF, I read him as town and have no beef with him atm.

wolf, nightwolf read as town.

Concerning Scigatt and alvinz, you guys are being annoying, I'm not against policy lynching them given the situation of the game atm.

[springlullaby]

@Springlullaby:

Right, this game is starting to tire me and I think it is time to reach a lynch soon.

Hypocritical much? You have posted almost nothing for several pages, and yet you claim the game is dragging.

Quantity=/=quality.

Kairyuu, I think you are not properly apologetic for what I see as bad play -if you are genuinely town - your 'trap' or whatever you call it was certainly not well thought out and didn't cover every possible interpretation, though I do take responsibility for jumping the gun.

There's a problem with your statement. I don't think I need to apologize for what you see as bad play, because I don't see it as bad play. My 'trap' was a gambit, and assuming it was meant to cover every single interpretation is not going to work. We are dealing with people, not statistics. Human error creates anomalies, and there is nothing that can be done to stop that. My gambit was made with the tools I have at my disposal, which are not perfect. I accounted for all the possibilities I could think of, and went with it.

How would you have done it differently so that it wasn't 'bad play?'

You weren't at L-2 when you made your 'I'll be confirmed' statement which put you to L-2. It amazes me that you are pretty much agreeing with me on the fact that you didn't think of all the possibilities, then say in the same sentence that it wasn't bad play. I just don't know if you are doing this on purpose.

I certainly wouldn't have half-claimed with three votes on me.

Concerning your claim in itself, I'm perfectly ok to let it go atm because yours and mykonian's names are linked now.

Yep. We're masons, and if one of us dies tonight you will have no choice but to believe it.

Given how you have played and the possibility it leaves in my mind of you being a scum making a gambit, my sentiment now is that only a cardflip from one of you will convince me of your alignment but I do not think you are a priority today.

Although, if you are indeed town, Kairyuu, please take a deep breath and try to sounds less self-righteous, because misplaced confidence doesn't make you look good.

We have been over this already. I am extremely confident in my reads, always. No exceptions. I won't change that just because you think I sound self-righteous. Besides, a townie shouldn't care about 'looking good.' They should care about finding the scum, which I am attempting to do.

I'm not talking about your read, I'm talking about the way you've been arguing in favor of you half-claim whereas there is no question for me that it was a bad move. You not being pissed at yourself for being obliged to claim make me doubt your alignment, because I think I would be.

You mentioned question and failed case concerning me, explain and I'll answer.

You asked me questions, including "why should I not be voting you right now?" and I responded. I was expecting you to comment on that. If you don't plan to, then it affects nothing, since I have already claimed.

If you are asking why I asked you that question, it was me giving you the benefit of the doubt because at the time my read on you was very much town.

Bolded mine, contains my thoughts on Kairyuu's claim.

Now, concerning who I'm willing to lynch, I'm going to stick with Artem, because I still think the Artem vs Kairyuu thing was much ado about nothing, but I believe Artem's vote on Kairyuu was a pre-emptive and defensive OMGUS reaction to Kairyuu's mentionning the beginning of suspicion on him. But I have to say it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point.

I voted for Kair on two different occasions. Which vote are you referring to because, frankly, I'm not seeing either as "pre-emptive and defensive OMGUS"?

I'm talking about your first vote one Kairyuu: of the Kairyuu vs Artem discussion, what struck me most was the back and forth over whether or not Kairyuu FOS'd you, with you accusing him of doing, and him denying it.

Well, if you look at that the other way, what you were doing was essentially voting him because you thought he FOS'd you; and that's called OMGUS.

[springlullaby]

Exactly right, but requesting prods does not count as quality.

I felt their absence was very suspicious at the time given that there was a claim on the table.

You have the order wrong. I was at 3 votes when I made my "I'll submit to being lynched D2 if I can't be confirmed" post. That was the post that brought me to L-2, at which point I had to half claim in order to explain my reasoning.

I did not institute my gambit until I was at L-2, and now I am confused as to what you meant by not considering all the possibilities. I thought you meant that I couldn't get the best read on the people who reacted to the gambit. Apparently you are talking about something else. Explain please.

My bad for being confusing, by half-claim I was referring to your 'if I can be confirmed' comment which in mind is definitively what brought you in a situation to claim in the first place, and which I definitively see as bad play because nothing warranted a statement of the sort at the time.

How I have played has been entirely consistant throughout. You just don't seem to like the fact that I won't apologize for not letting myself get lynched. You will probably get your wish soon enough when the scum kills me or myko, but until then you get to deal with the fact that claiming masons as scum is a stupid move because of how easily it could be confirmed.

I don't like the passive-aggressiveness of this and the wifom but no, I'm not saying you shouldn't have claimed, I'm saying that your apparent refusal to admit any mistep in the process which led to your claim doesn't comfort me on your alignment. So yes, until one of you is cardflipped, you get to deal with the fact that that people are going to doubt you.

You are doing exactly what Artem did at one point. You say that I played badly because I didn't act like you claim you would have. First of all, you probably can't prove that you would have been irritated at having to claim. And secondly, I don't have to conform to your standards in order to be playing properly. Besides, I'm having too much fun in this game to put myself down because one player says I've made a bad move.

I could just as easily say that you are scum because you did not react the way that I would have to my questioning. It would equate to the same thing, that is, baseless argument that holds no weight.

This touch a point which I actually find interesting and think goes beyond what I'm starting to suspect is pointless bickering. I'll address it in my next post which with deal with my suspicions of Artem

But before that, SilverPhoenix, I find your defense of sekinj interesting because if it is debatable to say that sekinj's play has been scummy, I certainly can't see anything good to say about it, which in itself is pretty scummy imo.
I also would like to know why you are singling out Shez and CF Riot for their attacks on her in particular, because I haven't been a big fan of sekinj either.

[springlullaby]

Bolded mine in above post.

[springlullaby]

@Springlullaby:

I felt their absence was very suspicious at the time given that there was a claim on the table.

And you feel that this excused your posting nothing but prod requests?

I'm not trying to excuse myself for anything as I don't see what I have to excuse myself for, you seemed to ask why I prodded people, I'm telling you.

My bad for being confusing, by half-claim I was referring to your 'if I can be confirmed' comment which in mind is definitively what brought you in a situation to claim in the first place, and which I definitively see as bad play because nothing warranted a statement of the sort at the time.

I felt it would help my case, as it did in the same newbie game I mentioned earlier (I did almost the same thing, minus the confirmation hope). It didn't. Oh well. There is absolutely no use crying over spilled milk. I am not going to give up and go home just because something didn't go as planned.

As I already said I can accept that for now.

I don't like the passive-aggressiveness of this and the wifom but no, I'm not saying you shouldn't have claimed, I'm saying that your apparent refusal to admit any mistep in the process which led to your claim doesn't comfort me on your alignment. So yes, until one of you is cardflipped, you get to deal with the fact that that people are going to doubt you.

It's WIFOM to mention something that the scum all but has to do in order to win? Whatever you say.

You saying that it's a bad move for scum to claim masons is WIFOM, which I don't like because I can link you to games I've played in which scum did just that.

And yet again you are saying you don't like the claim simply because I moved forward rather than dwelling on what you feel was a mistake. If townies got all pissed off and sulky every time something didn't work out for them, then scum would never get lynched.

Bravado is often a scum-trait, as is not admitting to being scummy. I think your 'I can be confirmed comment' was very scummy, yet you have all but dismissed the importance of it, I can see scum doing that to save face.

And if by people you mean SilverPhoenix (who is being logical) and yourself, (quite the opposite) neither of whom feels strongly enough for a vote from the way it seems, I am not altogether bothered by being suspected, as your case has nothing to it, and he is currently satisfied with my reasoning.

Let me clarify something here, you seem to think that I'm asking you to conform to how I think you should play, that's not the case, what I am doing is explaining the reasons for my doubting you.

Bold mine.

Kairyuu, I think you have been passive-aggressive in the last couple of posts addressing me. If you have accusations to make, do it clearly.

-----------------------------------
Next Artem.

[springlullaby]

1.

Can you please point out where I'm being pre-emptive or OMGUSy?

The post in which you vote Kairyuu is here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 20#1299920

You see, in the above post the reasons for your vote on Kair are nowhere near clear to me. It is only one post later that you summarize your reason to vote Kairyuu. I think this is a scumtell because it is easy for scum to be argumentative, and scum often think they can get away with a vote when they 'win' a discussion point - however in this process they often forget to be assertive, that is to say to try to determine if the point they have 'won' can be in anyway indicative of the 'opponent's alignment.

Notice here the deliberate use of the word scum in regard to Kairyuu in the post I linked, this is pretty scummy I think because even taking into consideration the reason you cited afterward, I don't imagine I would be that sure of Kairyuu's alignment at that point.

Now, to explain why I said Artem's vote looked preemptively OMGUS-y, if you look back at the Artem/Kairyuu standoff, you can notice an escalation on both part, with FOS' and HOS' thrown in by both, but the origin of the dispute is Kairyuu's comment saying something along the line of 'I will keep an eye on Artem', right after Artem's first crappy vote on Kairyuu. I think Artem was simply frustrated he couldn't get Kairyuu to drop his suspicions of him, and this kind of frustration is more often scum's frustration than not.

If I were better town, I would do an historic of the dispute with quotes, but I can't summon the righteous energy right now, so you'll have to go verify my say yourself.


2.

You are doing exactly what Artem did at one point. You say that I played badly because I didn't act like you claim you would have. First of all, you probably can't prove that you would have been irritated at having to claim. And secondly, I don't have to conform to your standards in order to be playing properly. Besides, I'm having too much fun in this game to put myself down because one player says I've made a bad move.

I think you are referring to Artem's 'this is exactly what I did as scum' comment addressing you. Well you see, at the time he made it, it struck me as strange because I used the exact same argument against him in Newbie 588. But you see, in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using that argument the same way you did, and I think he was being sincere, because it is certainly not a 'standard' argument coming from town and my using it is kinda an anomaly- this makes me think that him using that argument is more likely a scum 'copycatting' an argument town once used against himself than genuine thinking.

---------------------

I have to agree with Myko. So far you are voting me because "it's more gut feeling than anything else at this point"... Are you saying that with everything that's going on in the game at this point, your strongest case (and hence your vote) is just a gut feeling?

Do you have something against gut feeling?

It is my opinion that at times where there is too much logic and hypothesis floating around, guts is the way to go. What do you think?

------------------------------------------------

Also,

I'm not trying to excuse myself for anything as I don't see what I have to excuse myself for, you seemed to ask why I prodded people, I'm telling you.

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

Is missing the point, what I'm stating is I feel the prods I posted were warranted. I don't know what was Kair's intention since he didn't state anything clearly, but 1) I don't think I posted only prods in this game 2) are you accusing me of doing so? If it is the case, do state it clearly instead of borrowing other people's word.

I'm also going to throw out the possibility of SL and Sekinj being scum-buddies. The original argument was most likely a way of distancing and both have been largely ignoring each other recently.

Ignoring each other? Please quantify as I do not think it is the case.

In particular, SL just hangs up on the whole argument:

Not true.

@sekinj, what you say in #102 is not 'quite' ( which is to say, 'simply not true'), check post #34 in which I've explained my vote even before you dismiss it. That said , I actually like how you are standing your ground but not so much that analysis of yours which didn't say much.

But I'm more interested in Artem at the moment.
Unvote, Vote Artem

So, SL doesn't like the analysis post but likes the fact that Sekinj posted it? It feels like a scum patting their buddy on the back going: "Good job, you've posted something. I'm going to leave you alone for now."

FoS: SL

No, what I said was that I didn't like the analysis but like the fact that she stood her ground and didn't cede under the pressure of people calling her out. In particular, I liked the post in which she said 'yo mama' to me. That was enough for me to unvote her at the time, and move onto a juicier case, you.

-----------------------------------------

I'm willing to lynch Artem, Sekinj and Scigatt, int that order.

Artem: see above.

Sekinj: I think her posts are lackluster, nothing to make waves, but rather going with the flow, this in itself is scummy. Plus I don't like her rapid vote and unvote on Kairyuu looks like wet blanket scum, seeing an opportunity but rapidly retreating when faced with a claim.

Scigatt: scummy lurking, he is posting elsewhere too.

While afatchic was somewhat scummy, I'm cool with Shez, like her read.

[springlullaby]

Spring is becoming my top suspect. she is a bit hasty, and uses a weak reason to vote Artem. This also from the fact that she thinks Kai confirmed. Still she kept her options open in case SP would make a case against us. Weird. she is also attacking Kai a bit, so it is not that weird she would vote for one of us.

Never said I thought Kair was confirmed, I said he was confirmed by you.
I'm not sure what you are saying with the 'it's not that weird she would vote for one of us'.

I get the feeling that she does all this also to stay of Sekinj's wagon? Still see mentions she doesn't like Sekinj's posts. From this I guess that at least one of zade and CF are scum. Let's see day 2 for that. After this, Spring is gone for some posts.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Please explain better.

I'm opposed to a Sekinj lynch. I don't think the reasons to vote her are strong, and I got a very pro town feeling about her, which I'm not going to explain, because it is mostly a feeling, and for reasons possibly even weaker then the reasons to vote her. I'm not a fan of zade, CF, Scigatt, and Spring.

I

vote spring

, for reasons stated above, and for plays I didn't like before, but that I haven't reread.

--------------

@sekinj, I'm not sure why you are voting me, care to elaborate?

[springlullaby]

@SL - So.... you are actually saying that yo mama made you not vote for me??

Well yes, struck me as townish at the time.

@SL - this is why I'm suspicious of you:

From my post #43:
her recent shout-outs to the lurkers while not posting large amounts herself and she seems to go back and forth on germy a lot. first he's town, and then he's scummy, and now hes back to town. She has also made numerous posts with significant acusations which lack any reasoning or backing (see posts in isolation 2, 15, 20 and 21). Some of those she has followed up on, but some remain unexplained.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

I didn't see enough glaring in each post to do a PBPA, but I don't like your deflecting, and wishy-washiness. It also seems like you are trying to skate under the radar at times. I also think that is it odd that you and CF both think I am scummy but have never addressed each other directly.... I am suspicious of that lack of interaction.

Lol, isn't it ironic that what you reproach me is almost a mirror of what I reproach you? In objectivity, I have never tried to skate under the radar, and I took stance on every issue. If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

As for CF, I think he reads town and have seen nothing I wanted to address him about till now.

Bold mine.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

[springlullaby]

And spring: considering Kai confirmed, and saying that some other person confirmed Kai is exactly the same thing. You did use the word confirm, in stead of a more neutral word, like to say someone to be town, or something.

No it's not the same, at all.
Kairyuu is confirmed by Mykonian =/= Kairyuu is confirmed town.
I don't see your point, do you have a more appropriate word to describe yours and Kair's situation?

[springlullaby]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

[springlullaby]

Err, did afatchic leave on purpose?

[springlullaby]

sekinj, since you are around, mind replying to my 367 beside in joking?

I dont' know what kind of response you want. I obviously don't like that you want to lynch me... I think you are wrong and misguided...

1.'Wrong and misguided' are word characterize a townie, if you think that of me, why are you voting me then?

2.In the post, I have addressed other questions to you (bolded text). I'd also like you to react to answer to your suspicions.

[springlullaby]

Sorry I missed these. The bold within other people's quotes is hard for me to read.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

Why arn't you willing to pursue? you think he is acting scummy, but is not scum? or may you just knwo the rest of the town wouldn't be convinced.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

obviously not. I think leaving your options wide open and leaving your language open to interpretation is a scumtell.

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

your post in isolation 20. Maybe you answered this in your most recent post regarding Artem. i will review.

If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

the thing is it seemed like you were more concerned about their actions, rather than stating your own opinions about the issue at hand. It just looked like a stalling tactic. You explicity state that you were waiting for them to post before you posted somethign bigger.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

You've made some comments, but I would understand your progression much better if you had actually addressed what was leading you to think he was more and more scummy. As it is there are just random comments about germy's scumminess, and nothing that can be quantified. that's why i thought it looked wishy-washy.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think it's mean. I think you are wrong. I think you are a misguided scum if you think you can lynch this townie with these arguements.

-------------------------

@SL:

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

QFT

Is missing the point, what I'm stating is I feel the prods I posted were warranted. I don't know what was Kair's intention since he didn't state anything clearly, but 1) I don't think I posted only prods in this game 2) are you accusing me of doing so? If it is the case, do state it clearly instead of borrowing other people's word.

Except that Artem is exactly right. Examples include:

Prod: afatchic

I'm putting my posting my thoughts on hold until Kayryuu's partner has claimed.

One thing though, I'd like to hear more from our lurkers: afatchic, alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt, and wolframnhart.

Five lurkers in a 12 people town is too disproportionate for my liking, especially with a claim on the table.

Prod: alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt

Comon guys, don't be annoying and lame, post.

I'll post something bigger later, I want these people to post first. I have to big suspects as for now.

Those are three entire posts from you, where all you do is prod other players.

I already told you that I think my prodding them was justified at the time. And I posted content as I said I would.

I think you are referring to Artem's 'this is exactly what I did as scum' comment addressing you. Well you see, at the time he made it, it struck me as strange because I used the exact same argument against him in Newbie 588. But you see, in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using that argument the same way you did, and I think he was being sincere, because it is certainly not a 'standard' argument coming from town and my using it is kinda an anomaly- this makes me think that him using that argument is more likely a scum 'copycatting' an argument town once used against himself than genuine thinking.

But yet you haven't explained why you decided to use it after I specifically pointed out to Artem that it holds no water.

Oh but I think it holds water, I think that something you have done yourself as scum is a good indication of what another scum may do in the same situation, but I'm pretty sure my view on that is controversial. The point is Artem expressed the same view as you in Newbie 588, and -though he was scum, and I was right about him - I think he was sincere, which make me suspect him possibly using this argument as town.

[springlullaby]

Man, wrong tab, ignore above, correct reply as follow.

-----------------

Mykonian, your argument about me turning words is wrong, as was your argument about me saying Kair was 'confirmed'. I never said she said I was town, I thought sekinj's use of words peculiar, and pointed out.

The rest is suggestive, but if you want to say that my vote on Artem is weak, present some arguments.

people that vote first for a person, or second, are usually asked a lot for reasons etc. Later people can sneak in more, as public opinion favors them. Less reasons needed, ideal for scum. So yes, that is the problem in my theory so far. That is also a reason why you and CF aren't my top suspect, but spring. He is scummy enough for himself, and he fits in.

And this apply to me how?

----------------------------------

Sorry I missed these. The bold within other people's quotes is hard for me to read.

It is true that I change my mind a lot, that's kinda how I think and I don't particularly mind displaying my doubts, but concerning germy, I changed my mind only once. I have gone from 'pretty sure he is town' to 'looking scummier and scummier but I'm not willing to pursue the point'. I explained that in the post I retracted.

Why arn't you willing to pursue? you think he is acting scummy, but is not scum? or may you just knwo the rest of the town wouldn't be convinced.

So you think changing one's mind is a scumtell?

obviously not. I think leaving your options wide open and leaving your language open to interpretation is a scumtell.

1.Where did I leave my language open to interpretation?
2.Now, I'd like to know if you think germy or Kairyuu are confirmed town?

Please point out what you think I have left unexplained, and I'll explain.

your post in isolation 20. Maybe you answered this in your most recent post regarding Artem. i will review.

I thought what Artem said was a scumslip, I retracted because I had overlooked something setup-wise.

If you are on about my prodding lurkers, I already explained that I felt their lack of posting was more than suspicious at the time, and specially specified in these posts that I was going to post my thought after them.

the thing is it seemed like you were more concerned about their actions, rather than stating your own opinions about the issue at hand. It just looked like a stalling tactic. You explicity state that you were waiting for them to post before you posted somethign bigger.

My opinion is not what is more important as I already know my alignment, so yes, other people's actions is more important to me. Do you disagree with that?

I don't see how explicitly stating that I was waiting for them to post more is in anyway a scumtell.

Wishy-washyness, if you mean germy, I have explained up above.

You've made some comments, but I would understand your progression much better if you had actually addressed what was leading you to think he was more and more scummy. As it is there are just random comments about germy's scumminess, and nothing that can be quantified. that's why i thought it looked wishy-washy.

I already explained my view of germy in 227.

I have stated that I was willing to lynch you, what do you think of it?

I think it's mean. I think you are wrong. I think you are a misguided scum if you think you can lynch this townie with these arguements.

Well, at least you have wit.

-------------------------

@SL:

is missing the point. Kair is accusing you of posting nothing but prods, not asking you why you're prodding others.

QFT

Is missing the point, what I'm stating is I feel the prods I posted were warranted. I don't know what was Kair's intention since he didn't state anything clearly, but 1) I don't think I posted only prods in this game 2) are you accusing me of doing so? If it is the case, do state it clearly instead of borrowing other people's word.

Except that Artem is exactly right. Examples include:

Prod: afatchic

I'm putting my posting my thoughts on hold until Kayryuu's partner has claimed.

One thing though, I'd like to hear more from our lurkers: afatchic, alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt, and wolframnhart.

Five lurkers in a 12 people town is too disproportionate for my liking, especially with a claim on the table.

Prod: alvinz95, Ku_F, Scigatt

Comon guys, don't be annoying and lame, post.

I'll post something bigger later, I want these people to post first. I have to big suspects as for now.

Those are three entire posts from you, where all you do is prod other players.

I already told you that I think my prodding them was justified at the time. And I posted content as I said I would.

I think you are referring to Artem's 'this is exactly what I did as scum' comment addressing you. Well you see, at the time he made it, it struck me as strange because I used the exact same argument against him in Newbie 588. But you see, in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using that argument the same way you did, and I think he was being sincere, because it is certainly not a 'standard' argument coming from town and my using it is kinda an anomaly- this makes me think that him using that argument is more likely a scum 'copycatting' an argument town once used against himself than genuine thinking.

But yet you haven't explained why you decided to use it after I specifically pointed out to Artem that it holds no water.

Oh but I think it holds water, I think that something you have done yourself as scum is a good indication of what another scum may do in the same situation, but I'm pretty sure my view on that is controversial. The point is Artem expressed the same view as you in Newbie 588, and -though he was scum, and I was right about him - I think he was sincere, which make me suspect him possibly using this argument as town.

Bolded mine.

[springlullaby]

While I was looking at sekinj, I took another look at this post. (Maybe someone spotted this before, I'm not sure.)

Right, I'm not particularly enjoying the new turn of the discussion and wouldn't be unhappy if you guys would just leave the setup alone. It's no fun and I think scum have brains too.

Germy, I still think you're most probably town, but you're starting to push it.
What's the point of hunting for scum reaction when you make evident what you are doing?

I dislike mykonian's last post a lot, I don't see any point in it. Myko, would you care to explain what purpose it served?

I'd like to see more from afatchic and all people who have no vote placed on someone.

First of all, I don't see how talking about the setup for a few posts, as opposed to roleclaiming, can hurt the town. The scum will discuss this among themselves anyways at night, and I don't how this could be town move.

Vote:springlullaby

1. I see this as an OMGUS vote with lame reason.

2. In this game, claims give more info to scum than to town because they already know how many letters they occupy.

[springlullaby]

@Springlullaby:

I already told you that I think my prodding them was justified at the time. And I posted content as I said I would.

Even if those posts hadn't been essentially all you posted for 2-3 days, you are ignoring the entire point of my quoting them. You claimed to have never made a post that was nothing but a prod. Those three posts are perfect examples of just that. You ask for lurkers to post, and then say nothing else. Plus, these posts spanned 2-3 days, with no other posts between them. The fact that you keep trying to dodge the issue does not sit well with me. I would seriously consider switching my vote to you at deadline if I can't get people to join my case instead.

Man you are getting on my nerves with this, you are picking on a point I already explained multiple times:

1. I never said that I had never made a post that was nothing but a prod.

2. I never dodged the issue, I answered since the first time you mentioned it and

multiples time afterward

that I felt the prods were warranted at the time.

Tell me, do you think that the prods were not warranted at the time?

3. Check Darkstarlkers mafia, I posted prods only for even longer stretches of time and I was town. It is a nulltell from me.

4. If still don't like my posting prods and think me scum because of it, you're wrong but fine. I'll be damned before I repeat myself again.

Oh but I think it holds water, I

think that something you have done yourself as scum is a good indication of what another scum may do in the same situation

, but I'm pretty sure my view on that is controversial. The point is Artem expressed the same view as you in Newbie 588, and -though he was scum, and I was right about him - I think he was sincere, which make me suspect him possibly using this argument as town.

Two things: First, you still haven't explained why you used the argument when you knew that it would amount to nothing.

I think you don't know how to read as I expressively said that I think it holds water. The point I made is that Artem using it is scummy because in Newbie 588 he wondered at my using the same kind of argument, and I think he was being genuine, hence I don't think him using this argument is genuine.

Second, the bold is serious WIFOM, especially since, as I explained to Artem, what you would do in one situation has absolutely no effect on determining the alignment of someone else when they do something in the same situation, because people have a tendency to think differently from each other.


If they didn't, then there would be no point playing mafia because every scum would act the same and every townie would act the same in any given scenerio. The scum would therefore not be able to hide and the town would win every time.

This is your opinion, you'll excuse me if I stand by mine as you have yet to point out the scientific study which proves me wrong.

Beside the discussion on the validity of this argument belong in MD, not in a game.

More importantly, whether you think it is a valid argument IS BESIDE THE POINT.

Reading you, I think you don't understand my point. Lemme draw a pic to help comprehension along.

[springlullaby]

While I was looking at sekinj, I took another look at this post. (Maybe someone spotted this before, I'm not sure.)

Right, I'm not particularly enjoying the new turn of the discussion and wouldn't be unhappy if you guys would just leave the setup alone. It's no fun and I think scum have brains too.

Germy, I still think you're most probably town, but you're starting to push it.
What's the point of hunting for scum reaction when you make evident what you are doing?

I dislike mykonian's last post a lot, I don't see any point in it. Myko, would you care to explain what purpose it served?

I'd like to see more from afatchic and all people who have no vote placed on someone.

First of all, I don't see how talking about the setup for a few posts, as opposed to roleclaiming, can hurt the town. The scum will discuss this among themselves anyways at night, and I don't how this could be town move.

Vote:springlullaby

1. I see this as an OMGUS vote with lame reason.

2. In this game, claims give more info to scum than to town because they already know how many letters they occupy.

1.When did you vote for me.

2.I explicitly differentiated between roleclaiming and talking about setup.

1. I stated that I was willing to lynch you.

2. Look back and see that when I made the comment you quoted the discussion was on claims.

[springlullaby]

For fuck sake,

yes I do

(see I can bold too). And a much stronger one than yours on me. Don't you read.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 86#1299586
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#1316058

[springlullaby]

First, people learn, second, if I get this right: Artem was in two different situations, first where it is used against him, second where he uses it. In the first case, off course he is going to say the argument doesn't hold, even if it did! So the first case doesn't tell you how Artem feels about the argument, therefore

you still don't have a case on Artem

. You are half of the game on Artem, without a case, and coming up with several complete illogical reasons along the game to reïnforce your nonexistant case.

I explicitly stated that it is my belief Artem was genuine when he said that the argument didn't hold. This is a judgment call, mine.

[springlullaby]

*Roll eyes*, I envy your certainty. And I don't get why you are defending Artem instead of letting him answer.

As I already said before, the three people I'm willing to lynch are Artem, sekinj and Scigatt.

[springlullaby]

I didn't post it to defend Artem, as I feel he doesn't need to it, and if he hasn't done by now, he has had enough time. This is more or less proving that most of the game, what you have done, apart from useless post, is picking a player, fabricating a weak case on them, and later on, find new "reasons" to reinforce your "case". These reasons haven't been too convincing. You have almost not looked at anyone except your target. That is scum play.

I did look at other people, actually, I looked at everyone. Man, look at your own play, you looked at no-one except me. And I did examine other people and give my opinion on everyone. I haven't been fabricating weak case.

Though this is still subject to change if we get stuck again before the deadline with a tie and no lynch, I will [/b]Unvote: Sekinj, Vote: springlullaby[/b].

I do this a) because I think springlullaby's posts over the past few pages haven't actually given me much insight into her thinking despite being asked questions I too want answered, which might be a tactic of scum, b) because she's reacted poorly to the criticism offered so far and to the votes against her, c) because I want to work out a compromise, and d) because my number one suspect, Sekinj, has gone on record strongly against springlullaby and I hope spring's alignment might strengthen or weaken my case against Sekinj (I'm keeping bussing in mind, too, don't worry).

a) What other 'insight into my thinking' do you want?
b) Quantify 'reacted poorly'.
c) Bull, just because someone goes strongly for a mislynch doesn't mean they are scum. You have to examine their stated motives.

Of all the votes against me so far, yours look more like a wagon-jump than any others.

Before anyone says that I saying that just to save my own arse or something to similar effect, don't bother, I know saying that make me looks bad, yet I'm saying it because it is what I think.

Then again, now that I think about it, Artem would use that argument as townie because you used it as a townie. It doesn't really matter what he said at the time you used it against him, as he was scum trying to get the suspicion deflected. He certainly could have learned his lesson and therefore used the same tactic as townie from then on.
So I take back the statement I said last post. Spring's case for Artem is weaker than I thought. Combined with me still not finding much on Artem, I think spring's argument against Artem is dead.
Does that make her scummy? Partially. I think beating a dead horse one too many times can be a signal of someone trying to be too townie. Does this warrant a vote? Not yet. I want to see spring respond to me, since my vote would put her at L-1.

I'm not beating a dead horse, I'm simply explaining my point to Kairyuu since he doesn't seem to understand. I'm curious as to his reaction to my educational leaflet :p. And I think there are people who genuinely are closed to that line of thinking, plus I think it is easier to 'learn from past lesson' as scum than town. A aware that my case on Artem is highly subjective, but it is based on a guts feeling and since it pleases me aesthetically, I'm defending it. Right now I really wish that Artem is scum, just to prove me right.

[springlullaby]

Oh, me claiming now is useless if that's what you guy are waiting for.

Final update of my scumlist:

Artem - huhuhuh
Scigatt - bad participation, and his reasons to vote me are very weak
Schez - #436 looks way, it looks like 'I know Spring is gonna cardflip town, I'm gonna use it to further a case on sekinj'

Maybe:
sekinj - very safe play, nothing scintillating
CF-Riot - due to Schez upgrade
germy - I'm pretty sure I made a post about it

The rest: probably not.

I'm glad at least SilverPhoenix found my leaflet funny.

[springlullaby]

Well, done now, preemptive bad post.

(Love the cartoon in #427 Smile)

Hehe glad you liked it.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP, that was a preemtive BAH post.

[springlullaby]

Huh, my cardflip will answer your questions automatically, so I don't see why you are grumbling. (Scummy scum Artem :p)

[springlullaby]

Hurray! Were I right or what?

Lol, day 2 was kinda excruciating to watch, I was pissed when Artem got replaced by Shanba, I thought you guys were never going to nail him since Silver Phoenix seemingly backed off pushing the case against him.

But all's well that ends well!

[springlullaby]

Great game guys! I've been following it closely since I died. At first, I was going to scream at the "doc" for not protecting the obvious target. But then I realized the possible gambit on germy's part, and waited for the town to figure out the rest of the scum. Of course, then I was worried that you guys couldn't nail down the last scum. But good job anyways!
Yeah, I decided to block Shanba again N2 because I felt blocking him was better than guessing and possibly hitting the nonexistent doc (thanks germy ). After I died, I figured that they either switched who sent in the kill or blocked me to prevent me from blocking the kill. I am just glad I blocked Shanba N1, as that pretty much enabled the game to turn out the way it did. I was just sad I didn't leave to see it.
This was probably my best game, so thanks to everyone in it, including iamausername for great modding!

I think you played really well, good posts, sounding extremely town, and keping your head cool. Same for Nightwolf and CF.

If sekinj had not no-killed, I think he would have won, especially if he even left me alive. Razz I am absolutely horrible at finding scum, aren't I?

I am curious, from the assorted mafiaso - What was thought of my "Nurse" claim at the time, and was I anywhere near the mark with my gambit?

Yeah, I think you got a bit sucked in by the mechanics aspect of the game rather than scumhunting but your gambit worked pretty good in the end.

Sekinj did a really good job two, she adapted her play really well to all the criticisms.

[springlullaby]

Oh, and SL, I apologize for the "passive aggressive" thing from D1. I wasn't trying to act that way, so if I really was, I'm sorry.

Heh, nothing to apologize for, I was very antagonistic too which in retrospect wasn't a good move because I didn't really think you were scum. If I have learned anything from this game is a bit of buddying up when you are town is appropriate to stay in town's good grace.

[springlullaby]

Yeah, in many ways town benefited from the setup and especially not having a cop. If say SilverPhoenix had been cop and investigated you the outcome would have been vastly different I think. And you played really well too Shanba, I really hated watching you replace in because I thought town was never going to nail you. But Scigatt made the wrong claim, which provoked the reveal of SP's result, and you were in a corner.