Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[HackerHuck]

Thanks for the welcome. All familiar faces, except Bluesoul, whom I don't think I've played with before.

I told TSQ that I'm on vacation right now and it might take me a while to get my first read in, so please be patient.

Unvote

if there was one...

[HackerHuck]

OK, I'm back from vacation and have read through a good chunk of the thread. Don't ask me why, but I still have to read pages 10-17 before I'd be comfortable throwing a vote anywhere yet. Based on what I've read so far, I'm not really seeing Elvis_Knits as mafia.

I will have some time on Monday to finish up the last few pages and put together my thoughts. Sorry for the continued delay, but it was actually quite nice not to have any internet access for almost a week.

[HackerHuck]

Well, I actually liked the case presented by DGB on E_K, but I don't like the speed. I need to look at the context she presented and I'll put together all my thoughts tomorrow.

[HackerHuck]

OK, I've gone through DGB's summaries again just to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

I've had some concerns about her when reading this game. I'm actually used to a bit more aggressiveness from her - vote hopping and such - and her lackadaisical attitude was a bit distressing. The detailed analysis gave me a bit more comfort, but I also feel that her usefulness on Day one might be limited since she seems to do better when she's had more to work with.

As for the case on E_K, I wasn't really buying a lot of the early "tells", but as we got toward the later pages - 10-15 I believe - I start to see where there's some merit. My biggest concerns came with her lack of interest in why Ether wanted her specifically to hammer. I am still wondering why that is, but Elvis never seemed to care and it wasn't like that comment slipped by her. I also was put off by the entire SK discussion. That didn't seem like anything that a pro-town player would even bring up. There's really no value in putting that information out there as a defence and if she were trying to attack MBL with those comments, it would only imply that he could be the SK. That just seems like a nice smokescreen.

I'm not going to comment much on the lurkers, since we've got replacements and there hasn't been much coming from them yet. Out of the three - Elias, IH, and Sarcastro, I had a mildly scummy read from Sarcastro because he seemed to avoid any discussion around him and would reappear once the dust settled a little. I feel that townies who lurk are more likely to pop up when something about them has been said. by the way, shouldn't Elias be back for good now? I thought the 2.5 weeks started before I even replaced in.

MBL is truly a toss-up for me. I've had some wild swings where he's seemed very scummy to me and then others where he is very pro-town. I've actually played with him as scum on a few occasions - not recently though - and I don't get the feel of him playing that way. Of course, it's not to say that he hasn't changed his stripes a bit. He's starting to remind me of his play in LML's Open game that took forever, so I'm cutting him a break for now.

Parick has bothered me for much of the game. He calls out E_K for not scum hunting quite early in the game, which is an odd place to do so - especially when he hadn't been doing it either. I also didn't like what I saw as a little buttering up of MBL when referring to his first post as very pro-town. Post 236 by MBL is one that I really liked. He made some very good points about Patrick and Patrick shows up quickly to rebut. Note that my comment above about Sarcastro regards lurking scum/townies. I actually felt that E_K earned some points by coming out on top of Patrick in their dust-up, but that won't really mean anything if they're both scum.

PJ was also on my list of scum. I realise that he was making excuses for his play, but like MBL said, I think he'd be a little more interested in going out with a bang otherwise he would have bagged off on this game. PJ in 229 seems to be really stretching for reasons to not like Patrick. At first it seems like he’s halfway trying to do something – not sure if this is a scumtell or not – and then later he makes some strange analogy like he’s really stretching to get some traction on his attack. I'm finding that PJ is doing a lot of Theory and Teaching, which gives the appearance of being helpful, but I didn't see a lot of game-specific information in there. Pablito has been much better, but I agree with DGB on the whole IH commentary. That didn't make any sense, and I'm not going to let him use the drink as an excuse.

On the other side of things, I'm pretty comfortable with Bluesoul as town. I had some doubts after his early attack on MBL - which seemed forced - but I think he's been acting like an indignant townie, not scum backed into a corner. On the other hand, if he's taken lessons from MoS, I would say he's definitely scum.

Chamber is very pro-town in my opinion. Now, he's been so much more helpful than I've seen him before (only one other game together), but what he's said has seemed to match up with my thoughts pretty well and he's actually making some very good points.

Ether hasn't been very high on my radar. I didn't really make much in the way of notes on her - except for the request to have E_K hammer which I would like explained. Vibe is town, but that's really meaningless.

Just so I haven't missed anyone, I'll do a really quick recap.

Scummy:
Elvis_Knits
PJ/Pablito
Patrick

Toss-Ups:
Sarcastro/Bird111 (leaning scummy)
IH/CDB
Elias
MBL
Ether (leaning town)
DGB (leaning town)

Town:
BlueSoul
Chamber
Hacker Huck

I am willing to hammer, but I would like to get the new replacements to post before I do so.

[HackerHuck]

I don't remember specifically calling it "very protown"; post number?

That was my mistake. I had that comment in my notes and I'm not sure where I got it from. You just said he gave you a town feel for getting the game moving.

He made some very good points about Patrick and Patrick shows up quickly to rebut. Note that my comment above about Sarcastro regards lurking scum/townies.

Can you clarify what this means?

I was referencing this quote

...I feel that townies who lurk are more likely to pop up when something about them has been said.

and wanted to point out that it didn't apply in this case since you weren't lurking.

[HackerHuck]

I don't really understand. If you are certain to be lynched - which you are - then why is it rational for you not to claim. I'm assuming that your role will be revealed upon your death anyway.

[HackerHuck]

I don't really understand.

If you are certain to be lynched - which you are - then why is it rational for you not to claim.

I'm assuming that your role will be revealed upon your death anyway.

FOS: HackerHuck

DGB was exactly this close and I'd say the lynch hasn't exactly proved to be a certainty. I don't get these double standards between DGB and Elvis and I'd appreciate someone unvoting until I get an explanation as to why there is such a double standard.

Two things to this. I wasn't around when DGB was at lynch -1 and I have stated that I will be hammering Elvis once I've heard from all of the replacements and Elias. I don't want to see someone potentially get night killed before their thoughts have been put out in the open.

[HackerHuck]

My biggest concerns came with her lack of interest in why Ether wanted her specifically to hammer. I am still wondering why that is, but Elvis never seemed to care and it wasn't like that comment slipped by her.

I've looked back at Ether's post on this, and it seemed pretty obvious why she wanted elvis specifically to hammer. Can you better explain this suspicion? Elvis responded and you just ignored it, saying you'd hammer her later and that her lynch is a foregone conclusion. I can see what you're getting at with your other point against her, but still doesn't seem that big, and you were apparently reading elvis as not very likely mafia in the first 10 pages.

I'm afraid I can't really clarify it for you. I still don't understand why Ether wanted Elvis specifically to claim. I think there's a good chance that Elvis_Knits is scum, but I also think there will be value in knowing her alignment. It seems to be a pretty good day one lynch, just because of the information gained.

I'm also a little worried about Elias. Hopefully he can put together something this weekend.

[HackerHuck]

@Patrick
Having reread Ether's posts a little more carefully now, I noticed the consistency in her voting for Elvis off and on for most of the game. I hadn't really caught that the first few times through and thought her vote on Elvis wasn't solidly presented.

Going back and reading the post you mentioned, I notice that E_K was more than willing to die because of the conflict she had brought to the town. Where has that concern gone and how does it reconcile to the unwillingness to claim?

[HackerHuck]

Can we talk about how MBL said it would be ridiculous/impossible to have a SK in a minvitational, and I was stupid/misdirecting for suggesting it? Because Minvitational 8 had a SK.

I really think the SK is most likely to say there's no SK in the game.

Also, I blame him for the dissolution of the DGB wagon.

And where is he lately anyway?

unvote; vote MBL

I don't agree that it's rediculous to have an SK here, but I don't think it's a helpful conversation to have on day one. Even if we do have an SK, there's really no helpful information to be gained from discussing the possibility. I only see it as a diversion.

Why are you so concerned about the dissolution of the DGB wagon. That's not a bad thing unless you think she's scum, but then I would think that you would be pushing that wagon instead of reaching out for MBL.

MBL often gives off SK vibes just from his playstyle, but I think that it's important to note his assertion that it's extremely unlikely to have an SK. I also seem to recall from last year or some other year that it took him a little while to recover from the Burning Man.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about my delay in responding. I was relegated to using my mobile for internet the past few days and it wasn't worth trying to post.

Huck looks a little better upon isolated reread--he actually looks to be reasoning things out. But:

1) Huck, what about my play have you found "extremely scummy" this game?

2) What specifically have you found protown about chamber?

3) What has Ether contributed to the finding of scum/what makes you confident she's not scum pretending to be helpful?

4) How has pablito been "better than PJ"? What are your fave pabs insights thus far?

5) Can you qualify your bluesoul vibes?

6) DGB vs. elvis--town v. town, two scum distancing, or town v. scum genuine antagonists? Evidence?

Answering this wasn't as easy as I thought. My notes weren't as complete as a I thought, so I had to peek back at some of the early posts again. If you recall, I did a reread up through page nine or ten when I first posted and then finished up later.

1. I don't think I said extremely scummy - just very scummy I will say that I'm also predisposed to think you're scum. The whole statistical discussion did hit me the wrong way, but mostly by the way it resolved. I got the feeling that you were putting out a nice big trap that could be used to trip up almost anyone - town included. I guess it could be seen as a town gambit, but I got the feeling that it wasn't really set up to target scum. Post 119 was a little weird to me. You called out OGML (my predecessor) for calling out potential masons, but that comment doesn't serve the town by further putting out in the open. If you really wanted to make a case on me then you didn't need to add that extra point, in place 1 no less. Basically I felt that at the beginning of the game, you were stirring up the pot to get reactions, but the pot stirring did not appear to be solely target scum.

2. Chamber has been protown to me because I've been mostly on board with his thoughts. I also like how he's contributing, although that might not be as pro-town as I'm taking it. He seems to be very thoughtful in his contributions.

3. It could be that Ether is scum pretending to be helpful. I don't really know how to explain why I don't give that much weight.

4. Well, Pablito started off better than PJ, mainly because I really felt that PJ wasn't giving it very much. I didn't really buy PJ's excuse about not really being into the game. I could see that impacting his volume, but what he did put out there didn't seem to be very useful. Pablito has since fallen out of favor with me a little more. I will say that most players - especially those here - will do a pretty good job coming in as a replacement, regardless of alignment. I feel that he's become a lot more complacent in his posting and has thrown some votes around to be part of the game, but the reasoning is pretty soft and give him plenty of wiggle room if he ends up on the lynch or if even just wants to pull his vote.

5. My Bluesoul vibes related directly to post 129. I really don't see scum getting that worked up over being accused like he was. Most scum would be pretty cool about the case and play it down more than fire things up.

6. I'm not feeling that DGB is scum this game. Like Chamber, I've found myself agreeing with some of her more case driven posts - 185 and 239 specifically. I've been a little concerned about her giving up and the fact that she seemed a little more reserved than usual earlier on. I was concerned about how her wagon seemed to sneak up me during my reread and then it stalled pretty quickly. I do like her case on E_K and I'm even more concerned about why that wagon stalled out. I can understand why things slowed down as the new players got their bearings, but it seems like it is almost forgotten by now.


I've devoted a little more time to this response than I planned, so I'm going to need a little time to take a closer look at the recent happenings - especially with Elias.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about my absence. Battery almost dead and I'm about 80% done with a post. I'll get it in tomorrow.

[HackerHuck]

This is a little scattered, because it's been compiled from my notes from separate reading sessions.

I guess I did not hit the details that you were looking for MBL.
When it comes to Chamber, a few of the posts that I really liked:
126 and 215 were particularly good. I also feel that his opinion of DGB - and how he flipped on her quickly for the odd claim - is pro-town.

Regarding Pablito, I don’t really see a good introductory post as being a real big indicator of alignment, but he did a good job upon replacing in, giving some actual insights and not just tacking on to others’ statements. I did like how he picked up on the Supersaint discussion. Maybe it’s because it totally flew by me during my readthroughs. I find his general suspicion of Ether very interesting. I hadn’t really tacked her onto my scum list and coupling his comments to your question regarding the possibility of her being scum pretending to be helpful, I’m going to keep an eye out for her. Pablito is playing to form in my opinion. I don’t really have an alignment driven meta on him, but I don’t see anything out of the ordinary – including the posting while drunk. It is a noteworthy that those comments seem to come up about two-thirds of the way through the posts. It could be a bit of a crutch for him to start off strong and then just post some filler to appear helpful.

I really don’t have a good answer on Ether. Even to this point, she appears helpful, but I’m not getting a feeling that she’s scum trying to be helpful. I think that’s more of a gut call anyway.

I also didn’t give my top three. I’m going to do that a little later in this post, while I do find it a bit funny that MBL’s top three contains four people.

As for what’s happened recently, I have actually been paying attention.

CDB concerns me with the way he dropped off the wagon. Patrick then tries to really take the wind out of the sails by starting off a little heavy on Elias and then directing his attention to the newly replaced. It’s a good time to be asking questions, so it may not be as suspicious as I first interpreted it. He also wanted to get more info from Ether, but didn’t really have anything to say about her sizable post.

Bird’s entry looks pretty solid to me. I got a little turned about at the end though – his wrap up didn’t seem to follow the rest of the post. This quote is rather puzzling…

bluesoul: The whole assuming that the 30% came from inside information is the only thing scummy I really see from him. Liking the fact that he brought up the deadline issue. Don't like the fact that he chose to ignore chamber's vote just because chamber refused to elaborate. Find him scummy.

I usually find most players give me townie vibes when replacing in - I may have said that already - but I feel that Bird might be trying to be townie with his line of questioning in his recent posts.

Nice tidbit from Elias about PJ in 615 -

PJ basically ignores this entire conversation however, and posts a wall-o-text addressing basically everyone but DGB.

Oddly enough, it came from his analysis of DGB, so he didn’t really seem to do anything with that observation. I’m not keen on his response to the question of why he just used DGB’s analysis of Elvis and commented on it. I can understand evaluating a case on someone, but he was supposed to be putting together his thoughts on Elvis, not evaluating DGB’s case. If he wanted to use someone else’s analysis – and I don’t see a problem with that – it would be better to base it off of someone you don’t think is scum, and also to address all of the points made against Elvis. Chamber wins more t

br

ownie points from me for his pestering of Elias on this issue.

I find both Pablito’s and Elvis’ responses to DGB’s vote on Elias to be a little odd.

Elvis wants to get going on lynching DGB, but still votes for CDB because it’s better not to be a broken record. There’s almost a little OMGUS seeping out in these posts again. She’s also starting to treat Goofball like BattleMage used to be treated. It always makes me nervous when people are happy to lynch townies because they aren’t being useful.

I think DGB is treating Elias appropriately and fully agree with 673.
I have quite a few problems with Elias right now. He’s basically giving the appearance of playing the game – I’m not opposed to keeping pressure on him for this reason. I haven’t looked at his posts in isolation, but in reading contextually I find that a lot of his posts revolve around him and his lurking. He’s either explaining it away, or responding to questions about his lurking and availability. Of his few PbPs, they aren’t really as helpful as they appear. They show that he’s gone through and read the individual player’s posts, but it’s pretty light on analysis and conclusions. He basically admitted to having DGB as his prime suspect and not finding Elvis scummy, prior to even doing those analyses. He almost put more into his complaint about people voting for him than he did in his pbp on BlueSoul (post 688). I’m not certain whether he’s scum pretending to be helpful/present or whether he’s tired of getting called out and is just trying to do anything to get the pressure of himself. I also find it odd that he focused his recent response to MBL on Chamber and Sarcastro and really tries to paint those two as being scummy for lack of posting and content :S

I would like to reiterate that I’m unhappy with the dissolution with the E_K wagon, because there doesn’t seem to be much reason for it. Once one person bailed, many others jumped ship for weak or no reasons and I’ve seen a lot of pressure-type votes in their place.

Top 3
Elvis, Bird111 (mostly from Sarcastro's play), and Pablito or maybe Elias.

No Goofball. I don’t see her as that scummy, and I’m not making a connection between her and DGB. The back and forth between those two does not seem to be covering up any inside information.

Elvis – still there. I may have been a little more likely to let her slip away for another day had her wagon been derailed by a better wagon. Instead, I give the replacements/lurker a chance to post and people get cold feet. I don’t like wagons I can’t explain, but I also haven’t taken the time to evaluate everyone who participated and how it moved from beginning to end.

I’ve been skating a bit. Sorry about that, but work’s been a nightmare and internet has been a little spotty – bluehost has also caused me a few problems. I got dialup now, so I will be able to keep up better when the cable company lets me down.


Could someone point me to the most recent vote count? They've been alternating between isolated mod posts and being stuck in someone elses post and I'm unable to find a recent one.

[HackerHuck]

I didn't realise that I was being lumped into the same category as Elias, so I wasn't trying to portray myself in any way relative to him.

I also agree with Pablito's point about players referencing their own metas as a defence. Obviously if you are aware of how you play as scum versus town, that basically makes any meta meaningless and unusable as a defence.

It's also a poor excuse to say that you must be town because you're not playing well. I would also say that I'm generally a better scum player than town, but I've certainly bombed some games as scum.

Elias- how was my word choice extremely slanted? What are you suspicious of them for if it's not for them being scummy? You also seemed to miss the point of why I mentioned that. How is it that their lack of posting and content is any more or less scummy than yours? And was Sarcastro scummy or not?

How is mentioning my two minor suspects in any way really trying to paint them as scummy?...Your number two is sarcastro's replacement basically for the same reason that I have, sarcs scummy lurking.

I kind of see your point about Sarcastro. I didn't realise that I hadn't posted everything I had in my notes, because I referenced it a little bit indirectly. It goes back to his comment about Bluesoul somehow knowing the scum could/couldn't talk before the game started. He was very overdefencive about that, continuing on for way too long for a supposedly non-serious comment. Additionally, he seems to be pretty jokey throughout and is using that to back off of any of his more controversial comments when called on them. The comment about DGB and Elvis was mainly a continuation of what I said about your PbPs not being very helpful. You had already said how you felt about those two and your PbPs didn't bring anything new to your opinion.

MBL - I wish I could take credit for the irony there, but that was a result of cobbling together that post over a few days. I also LOLed when I saw your response.

[HackerHuck]

It's not a hammer, but I'll put my money where my mouth is.

Vote: Elvis_Knits

[HackerHuck]

If you had two votes, would you split them like that or put both on Elias?

[HackerHuck]

My tying up the vote counts was not intentional - Chamber corrected things after I voted. That said, I think that a tied up vote gives us two people to focus our energies on and should provoke some more debate.

Considering we haven't even been threatened with a deadline, I'm not so certain that it's undesirable to be deadlocked right now.

Do you have a position regarding Elias? I don't recall ever seeing you address him (at least not recently). Aside from self-interest, do you think he's a good lynch for today?

[HackerHuck]

Welcome CTD. My main recollection of you is your old avatar of the cat wearing a melon helmet. At least I think that was you.

I'm a little suspect of your first post. Granted, I didn't have a good feeling about Sacastro, but posting such a large mostly irrelevant (albeit a bit humourous) post about your feelings on each of us helps build up some "helpfulness factor" that can hide the fact that you're really an unhelpful scum. Basically a good start to lurking in plain sight. Let's hope that you bring more insight like you did in your third post.

I also agree with Patrick that I haven't really seen PJ play that way as town before.

Patrick - I'm now not seeing how the comment I made makes any sense considering your posts over the last few pages. I will say that you gave a townieish response to that seemingly absurd observation of mine.

[HackerHuck]

Wow, a lot of content in the last 24 hours!

I'm going to digest it a bit, but I have few observations.

CTD - You call out DGB for her approach in which she composes her analysis with the preconceived notion that E_K is scum. I call out Elias for the doing same thing yet it doesn't seem to cause a blip on your radar. Are you predisposed to find Elias as town?

I'm now a little concerned about my previous thoughts. CTD - one of my top three suspects - manages to call out my other top three suspects as being solidly town and not worth pursuing today. I cant fathom that CTD as scum would call out all of his scum-buddies as solid town, so that means I'm wrong about at least a couple of them - or that CTD is

really

bad at spotting scum.

I would say that Mr Buddy Lee's recent play is starting to remind me of how he performed in Open 64, but I certainly wouldn't put it past him to start acting that way knowing that a few of us are familiar with it. I don't think that E_K's observations on him make the strong case she's trying to. I'm not sure what to make of her sudden lashing out at MBL and Ether. It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

[HackerHuck]

I don't think that E_K's observations on him make the strong case she's trying to.

Explain what you don't agree with, or what points you find weak.

I disagree with everything you said about him in post 755.

I'm not sure what to make of her sudden lashing out at MBL and Ether.

I have had a problem with both of them all game, in case you haven't noticed. Why do you say I am "lashing out." Does that mean you don't agree with my points or that you simply don't want me putting down my suspicions? If you don't agree with my points, let me know which ones and why. If you have some other reason you object to it, please say WHY.

Looking at the tone of your posts, they appear to be written by someone who is desperate and is lashing out.

It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

Any reason you think this or are you just throwing around BS like MBL?[/quote]


CTD - Are you referring to my comment about CDB falling off the wagon or something else?

[HackerHuck]

Sorry for the double post, but I must have deleted something between preview and post...

It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

Any reason you think this or are you just throwing around BS like MBL?

I think I explained why I think this above - Weak case plus lashing out = worried scum.

[HackerHuck]

If you don't want to contribute and play, please ask for replacement.

[HackerHuck]

Having said that, I'm gonna dish out a

FoS: HackerHuck

. You're evidently around, and yet you too are ignoring my repeated request for an answer.

Stop making hay. I don't really see a repeated request for an answer. When I reread your posts, here's what I see:

Let's talk about CDB, for example. You pointed out something about his play that bothered me as well, but it didn't seem to register as scummy enough for you to consider him a suspect. Why do you think Elias' play is worse than CDB's glaring inconsistency?

CTD - Are you referring to my comment about CDB falling off the wagon or something else?

What I was referring to isn't really relevant to the question. but you happen to be correct. Read my analysis of CDB.

I guess I still don't see what the glaring inconsistency is either. That's more what I was asking in my response to you. I would actually consider that relevant.

To your point about CDB - I gather you're commenting on how he believes DGB's case and then later doesn't believe it. Considering I was also swayed by DGB, I'm not sure what I should find so problematic about that. You seem to be concerned by inconsistencies, which is reasonable, but I'm not seeing enough from CDB to push him past Elias - who I find to be just doing enough not to get replaced and to try and appear helpful. I figure if he's townie, he wouldn't go to all that effort to appear helpful and he would rather just get replaced. CDB's lack of effort is more laziness, which is a null-tell in my book.

[HackerHuck]

CTD - I'm a little annoyed with what I would consider an inconsistency of yours. You expect me to divine the intent of your posts, yet you also want me to explicitly state the intent of my posts.

I think with CDB, we're just arguing semantics at this point. I don't see someone changin their mind as being inconsistent. That's rather odd. What you're trying to imply is that if I were to switch my vote now - remember I didn't put E_K at L-1, but I was perfectly willing to hammer - then I would be inconsistent for doing so. I don't really get where you're going with this line of questioning and I'm certainly not going to give you a reason to go after me if I decide to switch votes - which is now seeming more likely.

As for your other question... I gave my reasons for putting your predecessor in my top three (four) and I'm not sure what you want me to expand upon - specifics might actually help in this case. I don't see how the quantity of my comments relates to the scumminess of the suspect.

If you think Elias is trying to appear helpful, you must not be playing the same game as I am. I'm not agreeing with your analysis of him here at all, and it bothers me.

Please reread where I discuss Elias. My comments aren't specifically related to his recent outbursts, but back to where he threw together some analysis. However, even in your most recent post, you acknowledge that Elias was trying to be helpful and people were doubtful to whether it was just to lose the lurker stigma. I'll repeat my earlier comment that it seems like you're trying to make hay right now.

[HackerHuck]

If you don't want to contribute and play, please ask for replacement.

I'm sure the mod can find someone who is willing to replace in and contribute. It's not like we're at the brink of a lynch.

[HackerHuck]

OK CTD, it is much easier to answer your questions when I understand what you're getting at. I think where we differ in our opinions on CTD is that you are honing in on the flip-flop, I noted it more in isolation of his unvote. To me it was more due to the fact that his unvote seemed to come out of the blue and I didn't - and still don't - understand why the Elvis wagon unraveled.

As for your predecessor, you're also trying to compare my comments on him to my comments on Patrick and MBL - both of whom posted mountains of content in relation. I'll admit that I had stronger scummy vibes from Patrick when I did my reread. I warmed up to him a bit once I was actually playing in realtime and our interaction made me feel more like he was really looking for scum and not just trying to find a nice townie to lynch.

As for leaving out something from my notes, when I replaced in, I was on vacation and read through the game in a rather odd manner. I'll admit that you're right that my suspicions are rather soft at this point. It's day one and putting together a top three was only done at MBL's request. That said, they are all people I wouldn't be opposed to lynching

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at regarding my comments on Elias. I do believe that scum are the only people that really try to be helpful, but I did point out that Elias is also in an unusual situation where a townie might also "try to be helpful" to avoid getting lynched as a lurker.

I hope I've left you satisfied. Now I've got to focus my attention on the others.

[HackerHuck]

If you don't want to contribute and play, please ask for replacement.

I'm sure the mod can find someone who is willing to replace in and contribute. It's not like we're at the brink of a lynch.

We should end the day. I've made my lynch choice clear.

Are you serious? I had to look at your posts in isolation and go back 18 posts (more than two weeks) to see who you are really trying to get lynched. If you really think she's so scummy that she should be lynched, then why would you make this comment? - in response to CTD saying your playstyle is a disgrace.

I'm just curious as to why DGB isnt. Shes acted almost exactly the same as me this game.

I took a look at MBLs presentation on Elias and found some things I like. I did notice the comment Elias made about PJ and how it was just dropped like it was unimportant. I actually took that as some evidence that PJ might be scum. Even more interesting is the interaction between Pablito and Elias. Pablito is voting for Elias, but there are some possible signs of bussing. Elias barely mentions him except to rebut his reasons for voting him. Another interesting comment:

People voting me...why?

Bluesoul:

claims the vote was to start discussion, acknowledges that it did its job, leaves vote. Huh?

Pablito:

says my wording is wrong and scummy. I explain that its my style and that I use those phrases a lot, and dismiss a lot of his points. His rebuttal accepts most of my responses but leaves vote. again, huh?

DGB:

Gives no explanation other than that she believes I'm buddies to elvis. Scummy as hell.

MBL:

never fully explains. I would appreciate a definitive reason.

His commentary is rather strange. With the two "non-existent" reasons for votes staying, Pablito and MBL seem like they should be the scummiest. DGB's case might be weak or unbelievable, but she made a case, stuck by it and that's who Elias calls the scummiest. Why not MBL since he supposedly didn't say anything? Then when you look at Pablito, this comment could be telling:

I'd like to see more votes on Elias, but I hope it's not out of sheer frustration with him.

First, Elias made the next two posts, so it's not like he didn't see it, but he didn't even bother to comment on it. If Pablito's arguments were fully rebutted, then why Elias not care that he's calling for more votes? Secondly, it's interesting how Pablito softened his statement. He's pressing for an Elias lynch, but he wants people to be cautious for it. Normally I would expect town who wants someone lynched to be interested to see who gets on a lynch for the wrong reasons, because that would be telling if Elias turns up town. Instead, he's warning people off the lynch a bit. Now as much as I can see those two as a scum pair, there was one thing that makes me hesitate. Elias' PJ comment came in his analysis of DGB. If anything, that comment attempts to pair those two up but doesn't really further a case against DGB. I don't really see any value for him to pull a scumpartner into a case that didn't really need him. That puts Pablito higher in preference on my lynch roll than Elias.

[HackerHuck]

Elias, maybe you should pay a little more attention to what I actually said. Your vote was back on September 6th. I did reread your posts and had to go back to the 18th to find where you made it clear that DGB was your prime choice. If your major analysis posts were within the last two weeks, maybe you could point them out to me.

Am I dead yet?

(I'm trying out the DGB style of posting. It apparently gets you out of being lynched)

This is supposed to be indicative of your intent to get her lynched? It seems to be more indicative of how disappointed you are in the way the rest of the town is playing.

So now you're telling me that I'm not allowed to analyse the posts you did make because you weren't posting early in the game? I find it rather amusing that you're posting more frequently now since you've said that you're no longer posting and earlier when you promised to post more, you actually posted less. I think I've been pretty consistent in my criticism where I feel that you're putting out some volume, but it's just not been all that helpful. I do find it interesting that you sidestepped the issue and still haven't responded to what I actually pointed out. Why is it that you don't find it necessary to comment on Pablito's actions and you think that DGB is the only scummy one for voting you when she actually had given some reasons?

~~~~

I also wish you would drop the sorry excuses. Repeatedly saying that you're bad as town is not going to get you off the hook and just because you're "only 16" is not an excuse for childish behaviour. It's kind of like defending yourself by saying "when I'm scum, I..." If you can recognise a behaviour, you can modify that behaviour. This is an invitational and I believe it was supposed to be based on skill, not popularity. Play like you deserve to be here and try not to bring down the game by pouting on the sidelines when things aren't going your way.

[HackerHuck]

Is it my imagination, or has no one switched their vote to elvis or Elias since I made them equal?

It's been more than five pages since the last official vote count, but here's my take on where we are now. It looks like CTD moved from DGB (Bird's vote) to Bluesoul and Patrick unvoted from the Elvis Wagon.
Here's where I see it, and it looks like Elias is in the lead...

Hiiiii

DGB:

2

1

(

Bird1111

, elias)

Elias: 4

(Bluesoul, Pablito, Mr.Buddylee chamber)

Elvis_Knits

4

3

(

Patrick

, ether, hacker huck, DGB)

CDB:

1

2

(Elvis,

CrashTextDummie

)

not voting:

0

1

(

Patrick

)

Interesting to note that CDB was omitted from the last vote count. I'm too lazy to hunt that far back to see where the vote is now, but he was voting Elvis_Knits on August 27th and then he was missing from the September 19th vote count. I'm not sure if it means anything, but that vote count also had chamber voting Elias and Elvis.

[HackerHuck]

CTD - why is it that you're not willing to go to night when your top suspect (the person your vote is on) is not one of the people you want replaced?

[HackerHuck]

I'm a little overwhelmed at work right now, so this game is taking a bit of a back seat. I'll be following along, but probably won't have much opportunity to do anything more than that for the next week.

[HackerHuck]

I'm still here and trying to follow along. My workload will clear up by Friday, so I'll have a chance to look back into some of the historical posts.

My mind is pretty foggy right now, so I've got some specific things that I feel I must research, mainly MBL's resurrection of the earlier DGB wagon and CTD's case on Bluesoul.

Welcome to the two replacements. I too have never heard of Xylthixlm, but I've never played anywhere but on the forums here. One of the shots in his avatar looks like someone else's old avatar - maybe Primate? I've played with Lowell in more than a few games.

I totally agree with Chamber here that a fast day at this point is useless. We've got until the 30th, so we just need to keep progressing.

I'm finding Elias to be overdefencive here and contrary to his sig, I do find that to be consistent with scum. What's bothering me the most about his defence is that he's not really defending his behaviour, but rather pointing his finger at DGB saying "she's doing it too, so

she

must be scum." That's a bit of a head scratcher for me. I also agree with MBL about the Pablito comments and I think they fall in line with something I posted earlier. Anyway, part of the reason my post is rambling is so that I can remind myself of what I want to look back at later this weekend.

[HackerHuck]

Ugh, I've been following on for the last week, but I'm a little bewildered by the last couple of days.

Unvote: Elvis_Knits

I'm no longer sold enough on her to be able to convince enough people to switch. I guess I'll focus on Ether for my reread.

[HackerHuck]

Yes, my disappearance is quite inconvenient. My supposedly completed project has now been extended until this Thursday. Give the rapidly approaching deadline, I'm going to keep up, but I'm not going to get that reread done that I had hoped.

Before things get too out of hand for me, I need to put a vote up. Given the two leading wagons, I'm still leaning toward DGB as town although that has softened lately with the odd flip-flopping on MBL. As for her claiming, I must be missing something, because I felt like that request came somewhat out of the blue considering how far back her softclaim was. Personally I'm indifferent about her claiming, mainly because I've seen her throw out stupid fake claims as town before. At lynch -3, I'm not in a big hurry to see a claim, but if she gets to -2, consider me on board with that.

I'm definitely going to have to take a closer look at Lowel/Ether over the evening. That wagon came and went so fast, there's got to be some good information to come of it. I'm also not going to forget about Elvis either. MBL made some interesting points in his last post and I need to do a little more follow up there.

CTD is starting to bother me with his continued insistence to lead the Bluesoul wagon into the end of today. His discussion of DGB seemed a little half-hearted and then he turned back to Bluesoul before finishing up that post. Given all the input and discussion he has been trying to generate since he came on board, I would have expected some more discussion about the two leading wagons and where he felt we should go with those. Not that a new wagon couldn't appear, but I'd say it's pretty likely that one of these two will be on the brink or lynched when we hit deadline and he's notoriously quiet about it right now.

I'm happy to

Vote: Elias

right now. I think he's done a good job of getting himself back in the game by being visible, but his efforts to hunt scum have been extremely weak and he spends most of his posts trying to push attention back toward how he's being unfairly treated for having lurked so much early on. Most of his defences have been either pointing to some kind of behaviour outside of this game or he's deflecting attention onto another player for acting just as scummy as he has. I did notice, that DGB is starting to fall into a similar trap by pointing loudly to Elvis and going on about how she also refused to claim.

[HackerHuck]

Yeah, sorry about my absence - more work, less internet, which causes problems when I've got to do those other real life things.

I'm not liking the way this day has started off. Both Elvis_Knits and Elias seem to be running out of the gates, but I'm not really following what they're trying to spin. Given the interactions between DGB and Elvis, I'm leaning pretty strongly toward the town side for her now or at the very least I think I should look elsewhere to find today's suspects. As for the recent events, I'm falling back into my thoughts from yesterday where Pablito and Elias might be feigning attacks on each other. Elias seems to be very adamant that Pablito is scum, yet I'm not seeing a big case there. On the flip side, Pablito throws out a big wall of text that seems to just be rambling on and doesn't really get to any point about what he thinks Elias' alignment is or why Elias is wrong. It seems like two boxers who are throwing a lot of punches at each other, but none of them are even close to hitting.

I did like where Pablito noted that we should be looking at Goofball's early wagon, although if he's scum then he would know whether looking there is a wild goose chase.

That's my half-assed entry back into today. I'm going to go back through some more of the late day posts yesterday to see what I can dig up.

[HackerHuck]

I haven't finished my selective reread, but CTD wants some answers and I can do that pretty easily before I get back down to business.

...I payed special attention to HackerHuck, because of that OGML post I quoted. However, there isn't a lot of material to work with, because HH played very much under the radar, only popping in from time to time to post a few observations. The only time he got really involved was when he himself was attacked (by me). I find that somewhat suspicious in itself. I took note of the way he handled DGB, and he defended her pretty consistently. Subtly at first (Post 551), and more openly in subsequent posts, where he repeatedly stated that he didn't think she was scum. He changed his tune ever so slightly once the deadline was close and she looked like a possible lynch (Post 1216) (which could indicate an attempt to marginalize his defense of her), but overall, he has been very consistent when it comes to DGB, which from my own pro-town PoV is hard to comprehend.

Not sure what to defend here. I wasn't really suspicious of DGB at first, but she wasn't playing as town the way I expect here to. I changed my mind when I saw the aggressiveness that I have come to expect from her. I also don't see how it's unreasonable for me to doubt my earlier opinion based on how she dealt with MBL. It certainly didn't make any sense to me then and it still seems pretty odd looking back at it again.

Of further note is the way he handled the early Elvis-wagon. He announced a willingness to hammer (Post 574), but seemed very adamant about not cutting the day short. Not inherently scummy, since it's in the best interest of the town to hear input from everyone, but could point to the kind of self-awareness scum tend to have. The possibility of the latter is greater in my opinion, because later in the day, HH himself questioned my position of not ending the day before we got replacements (Post 868). This indicates to me that HackerHuck wants to hear from everyone when not doing so could make him look bad, and otherwise doesn't really care about hearing from everyone.

These are two totally different scenarios. In the first case, we actually had replacements that had joined the game and I was waiting to here anything from them before I hammered. In your situation, there were no replacements and there was no indication from TSQ that he was going to get any. Additionally, I was probing your thought process, because I specifically wanted to see why you wanted to extend the day.

As for my entry into D2, I don't get why you think I was ignoring DGB's alignment in my post. I specifically changed my thinking on Elvis based on that reason and I also felt that Pablito's idea about checking the first wagon makes good sense considering that it would have been very easy for scum to jump on that final wagon.

[HackerHuck]

Review of DGB's posts brings me a little insight, but not that much. She has a pretty harsh view of Bluesoul early and sets him up with an interesting observation based on what Sarcastro says - a comment that I find scummy. Even though Bluesoul and Chamber seem to rebut any scumminess that Sacastro has directed at Bluesoul, DGB keeps it in her pocket as a point against him. Not what I would consider to be an indicator of bussing.

Now to her player analyses...
When discussing the lurking of Elias and IH, she points out that Pablito has a double-standard in his treatment of Elias and IH and also throws out some other comments he made on OGML. I see this as a scummy attempt to bind together some weakly related comments to make a case on someone.

I liked DGB's commentary on Elvis when I read it during my reread. First thing I notice is how she's trying to blame Elvis for tricking Bluesoul into sounding scummy. It seems like Goofball forgot that she thought Bluesoul is scummy. I'm following the rest of the case pretty well still, but then she makes another interesting comment about Bluesoul which seems out of place - "Bluesoul ignores the Elvis issue" - which seems to be trying to link Bluesoul to Elvis when she just tried to point out how Elvis was trying to trap him at the top of the page. At this point, there's no way I can reconcile Bluesoul and Elvis as scum together. Oddly enough, she then lumps Sarcastro, OGML, bluesoul and PJ all together as ignoring Elvis and being on her wagon and the final comment of that post is:

Speculation: if elvis is scum, she's scum with OGML and one of Sarc and PJ

An odd omission of Bluesoul from the speculation, considering she had thrown a lot of heat his way. I'm not sure whether I believe that DGB would really bus someone on day one. She continually uses that as one of her mantras of scum hunting - "Scum always bus their partners on day one because it is easier to get away with" However, considering how much mud she threw on day one, if I ignore everyone she accused of being scummy, that would probably leave me with Patrick who got the most townie points.

Many more posts follow, but then the one that really catches my eye is the one responding to MBL's (I think) request for the top three list. Of course she lists Elvis and Bluesoul, but she also lumps in PJ - not referring to Pablito - and Elias. She had been harping on the PJ/Pablito for a while, but Elias is a new addition - only for lurking - and she seems to have forgotten all about Sarcastro. I'm not sure if DGB is one of those types that "forgets" who her scum partners are, but I'd be pretty surprised if she forgot that Pablito was the new PJ, considering it had been some time since he replaced in.

The attacks on MBL really seem to be coming from out of the blue here and I'm not sure what the purpose really was. It did pull her away from the Elvis/Elias voting pattern. The Elias votes still don't feel quite right to me. She somehow picked him out as the lurker, ignoring IH/CDB entirely. That's really odd considering how she called out Pablito for doing that earlier. I doubt that she would totally ignore a scum partner who is lurking, which leads me to believe that if she's bussing anyone here, it's probably Elias. She doesn't mind voting him, but she seemed to not want to keep her votes there very long - that is until it's her head in the noose.

That's all the time I have today. I should be able to get some more reading in over the next couple of days and there are some things that I'd really like to look at. I'm not sure that looking at her posts gave me as much insight as I had hoped, but with Goofball, there isn't usually much consistency.

[HackerHuck]

The fact that you defended her more than any other player in the game? I'd quote the post where you called me a bad scum-hunter, but since I think there's a very good chance of you being scum, it would be kind of moot.

I'm somewhat surprised that you're portraying yourself as being conflicted about her. It's true that you seemed less certain in your very first analysis of her, but that's also the one that contained the kind of subtle defense I tend to expect from scum:

I've had some concerns about her when reading this game. I'm actually used to a bit more aggressiveness from her - vote hopping and such - and her lackadaisical attitude was a bit distressing. The detailed analysis gave me a bit more comfort,

but I also feel that her usefulness on Day one might be limited since she seems to do better when she's had more to work with

.

Is it defence or was I just of the opinion she was town and made that point known? You were also the one that initially portrayed me as being conflicted - commenting on how I changed my tune when she looked like a possible lynch. I would also characterise the underlined bit as not a defence, but rather a reason why I won't agree with her that much on day one. Her style is typically throwing a lot of crap at the wall on the first couple of days to see what sticks.
Besides isn't it a little hypocritical to call me our for that?

My general opinion of DGB as a player is that she's a distraction. My natural instinct is to disregard players like her, at least on the first day, and to look for subtle scum who are trying to hide amidst the chaos she ensues.

Considering that's probably half of what you said about her the entire D1, I'm not sure how you can go around calling me scummy for actually taking a stand on her. I find your general avoidance of that discussion to be much scummier.

How exactly are they "totally different"? Did you want to give the replacements a chance to post out of common courtesy, because it's rude not to let them have their say? The point of giving replacements a chance to speak is to get them on record either to make them take stands as scum or to preserve their thoughts if they get nightkilled as town, and generally to get a read on them. How does it make any difference if there were already replacements as in your case, or if we were waiting on replacements as in my case (and it was obvious we needed them, whether TSQ was indicating getting any or not)?

The main difference is that I was waiting for two people who were actually playing the game to make the posts that they had promised. Your request seemed much more like stalling, considering no one had requested replacement and the mod was not actively seeking replacements. Counting the time to find replacements and for them to read the thread, we're talking about a difference of many days. In addition, the purpose of that question was for me to get information about what

your

motivations were.

[HackerHuck]

I'm still around, but still having a lot of time issues getting in the way of playing. I don't really understand a lot of the attention I'm getting for my stance on DGB. There were certainly others who shared my opinions on her. I'm ambivalent about the massclaim, mainly because I've never really gotten much out of them myself, but I've also never seen one actually lead to a scum win. I'm sure someone can prove me wrong, but that's just a reason why I'm ambivalent.

I'm actually reading back earlier in day one and have a couple of questions. In reading back to where the first DGB wagon hit its peak, I’d actually like an explanation from Bluesoul regarding post 276 – I don’t see what Ether was saying there and I didn’t see any follow-through from Bluesoul after we got DGB's alignment. Bluesoul, I'm also curious about your thought process regarding the potential SuperSaint claim from goofball. Why did you suddenly switch from liking DGB to wanting Ether to go down?

Fortunately the activity level isn't making it hard for me to keep up, but I'm still having trouble getting the time to reread parts of Day 1.

[HackerHuck]

That HackerHuck non-defense was entirely uninspiring.

I know. I like how he didn't even reply to any of the stuff I wrote about him.

What exactly am I supposed to say about this?

I don't have time to go through all his posts ATM...

Quick overview reveals:

HH liked DGB's case on me. Perhaps I'm biased, but it seemed like regurgitated crap to me.

HH didn't vote me right away even though he said I was definitely the lynch for the day. When Elias had 5 votes, DGB unvoted Elias, moved her vote to me, and the immediately after that (the next post) HH moves his vote to me. This turn of events is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=721

That whole exchange is very suspect to me.

I may vote HH after I give a better read. Quick look tells me I have problems with him.

First you say that you disagree with me agreeing with DGB. I've already said that I was probably wrong about you being scum yesterday. In the second bit you say that I wanted to hammer you but was waiting. Then when you got back to lynch -2, I put you up to lynch -1. Considering I thought you were scum at the time, how is that particular action scummy?

I'm a newbie without a name - or vanilla townie. If I'm going to get lynched, please give me another day and I'll try and put my thoughts out there...

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about not getting back to this when I promised. Real life has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse. Since I'm certainly lynched, I won't post up my final suspicions.

Apologies to the town for the subpar performance.

[HackerHuck]

My apologies again for the poor play near the end. Some major things went down at work and I just wasn't able to devote the time to this game to really bring my ideas out there. It's pretty likely that I'm also going to join the ranks of people for whom this was their last game. It doesn't look like I'll be able to devote enough time to commit to playing a full game anytime in the near future, but I'll be around here or there just to see what's going on. It was a pleasure playing with you all.

Congratulations to the rest of the town for ferreting out the scum. It was frustrating to be so wrong about DGB, but seeing that I was right about Elias and PJ/Pablito made up for that.